Dynamic Entry vs. Tactical Pie - Tactical Tidbit
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- In this video we cover how to slice the tactical pie plus much more! Scott talks about how to slice the pie, the problems with the pie, when to use the pie, and why dynamic entry is a much better solution in most cases.
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00:00 Introduction
00:49 Slicing The Pie
02:32 The Problem With The Pie: It's Too Slow
03:31 The Problem With The Pie: You're Too Exposed
04:42 The Problem With The Pie: Non-Ballistic Walls
09:44 The Problem With The Pie: Dead Space
11:55 The Problem With The Pie: Moving Targets
14:55 When To Do The Pie
19:42 Dynamic Entry
25:16 Surviving To Death
CQB doesn’t mean you have to rush to your death. Hostage rescue says the hostages life takes priority so that’s why dynamic entries are taught. That’s when speed, surprise & violence are employed - and the assault era lives are secondary to the hostage’s.
Stealth movement to contact should be slow, methodical & you clear as much as you can from outside the room, then make entry.
People are teaching ingrained training scars over and over.
Mate, that is one of the greatest “worded” comments I’ve come across. 99% of comment sections “claiming their” point of view. You absolutely cut everyone on both sides by actually mentioning the FUNDAMENTAL of either tactics being used…. I read it like this;
OI YOU MUPPETS, LETS NOT FORGET THAT OUR HOSTAGE WHOS WAITING IS THE ONLY DAMN THING THAT MATTERS LETS JUST DO WHATEVER WE NEED TO, WHEN WE NEED TO and stop comparing penis sizes….
@@kingfinance1508 ha! Thnx! 32yrs of doing it helps I guess
3 guys can clear an entire room pretty much instantly once they're all in. That's why you see them go different directions. Point man goes one way, second guy goes the other, third guy takes the middle. They'll clear a room in 1 or 2 seconds if they're good. Pieing makes it a one on one fight. That's the other reason you see Swat, SEALs and Delta all doing dynamic entry.
@@CharlieMikeNS oh is that why? (Lol)
That's why i use ITCQB system
Deliberate clearance = security over speed (Hunting).
-Train to shoot off hand to minimize exposure while pieing. Don't be afraid to change levels.
Dynamic = Speed over security but, at the same time speed is your security.
-Both are dictated by what the mission is.
-know when to mix the two.
Try pieing left handed to reduce signature. Staying behind cover at the threashold is more beneficial than breaking cover, splitting the target but making yourself vulnerable. Especially if there could be multiple threats/ied’s etc from a fortified position
Exactly this. Learn to shoot ambi, become proficient with off-hand shooting. That way, if you come to a corner on your dominant side, you can switch to your off-hand and still pie the corner safely.
There are so many things that go into cqb, there’s a time and place for everything. The “pie” may not work after you have gone loud but if you are still quite then it works great. You also have to consider the amount of bad guys, if they are dug in, if they are expecting you, and so on… The “pie” definitely won’t work in certain applications but there is definitely a time and place for it.
CQB is dangerous. Situations and intel dictate actions. There isn't a one size fits all solution and no plan survives first contact. Thank you for not shying away from dangers that interior walls at best provide concealment. A well determined shooter with some experience can send the best laid tactics to waste in a hurry. It then all boils down to who is going in and willing to get hit. Uvalde made this decision very real for many officers. And we know their choice. Great video.
Performing a deliberate entry and sweeping the door does not have to be done by pieing the door. You can move with speed sweeping the door as fast as you can process what’s inside that room. It depends on the situation. If you don’t have anything that will disorientate them or kill them before entry, then going in without seeing 80% of the room may not be the best idea. Again, not one way is the best. It all depends.
Hello, from Argentina I can tell you that you have successfully explained the advantages and cons of using the dynamic technique versus the cake cutting technique. It has been very important, a laboratory analysis. Thank you so much
Barring a crisis entry for a hostage rescue or an entry due to active stimulus during active killing, I cannot see a situation, where rushing through an unknown threshold into the suspect strong hold makes any tactical sense. Furthermore, the problem with dynamic entry is that upon pressure, testing it with Simunition, Teams can very readily establish that you can’t enter fast enough not to be shot because Action beats reaction, and if the suspect is in a deep corner with a gun pointed at that threshold, you are going to be shot first before you can acquire him, get up on target discern the threat for what it is and place accurate rounds down range. This was military oriented doctrine was taught to us in SWAT 15+ years ago and is no longer deemed to be sound doctrine. Again, team movement needs to be dictated by the known priorities of life!
I my opinion based on multiple tours down range doing this is that the SITUATION will influence that technique(s) you use while conducting DA type missions. Early on we were breaching everything and clearing dynamically. But then came a day when we decided to change gears as the bad guys quickly caught on to how we (and most SOF units) operated. After that we did a majority of our missions in a very covert, stealthful way, penetrating compounds as far as we could before rounds were fired. Not to divulge TTPs on here, but this type of tactic worked very well. And yes, it involved moving slower and more methodically.
Joe?
I've seen the disadvantages mentioned, and kind of didn't think them through - even if one's thinks deliberate is safer, this video is still super helpful in laying down important flaws to consider.. great stuff
I recently went through a 5 day Shoothouse instructor class and was taught very similar concepts. Another concept spoke about was “clean vs dirty” areas. Meaning, if you are entering a room as a group and can see most of one side easily that side is considered “clean”, meaning it’s more likely the threat will be the other direction that has more “unknowns”, so 1 man should enter and face the “dirty” unknown side to be in a better position to engage any threats. The #2 and subsequently #3 and 4 men continue alternating sides as they enter to fill their zones.
I look forward to the next video. Very well put together on the first.
Solid video brother! With all the controversy around no-knock warrants today, I just shake my head because 90% of the teams I see executing no-knocks don’t have the CQB fundamentals down to make them worthwhile. In LE we have this nasty habit of thinking our tactics are good because they “work” unopposed. I think pieing has a place, it’s used too often where it shouldn’t be and we “win” using it because most people don’t want to fight us.
at 03:16 if there was a guy literally standing in the center of the room, the pointman is dead, and the 2 man is dead (he comes in with his rifle down btw) since he wouldn't even have seen him. That is exactly why pieing is always a safer option. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, a CQB principle you are choosing to omit as well.
Deliberate, gives your brain more time to process what's going on in that room. dynamic entry doesn't give your brain time to process information.
always dynamic entry! then just respawn and come back to life for each door!
Well, in early days of GWOT they used to dynamically enter every building but guys were getting massacred so they switched to pieing -it saves lives. Unless you have a hostage and no time to spare, you should try to pie as much as possible within reason, don’t rush to your death
The contradiction through outs a bit goofy. Rapid entry is apparently less exposing, more surprising, and better in every way. Did a nice dodging of issues while talking. You said if someone is waiting aimed at the door then doing a pie is the worst because it's slow but rapid entry and pie are both going to take round walking into an ambush lol.
If the opfor isn't aware, rapid, loud, and violent entry will likely tip anyone in earshot off that something is wrong. Like kicking a door in could be surprising but if someone kicks the door I know they're hostile bc no one I'm with will do that and if I'm in another room and hear it I can set up an ambush. Vs if a door just opens normal you might be inclined to make sure it isn't friendlies or be unsure as to what's there. That uncertainty I'd say would add to surprise once confronted.
Rapid entry has a place with time sensitive scenarios and times you're able to prep room entry devices. In real life there's a lot of unexpected things and people trying to stick to the script and flow can just get bunched up or tripped up and whole squads go down. Human nature like flinching and suddenly being shot at isn't something you can just train out. Sudden bright flashes and loud noises that are hostile turn most of the brain off in a real combat situation and this obsession with be tacticool with entry is going to get more people killed. There's likely a good reason rapid entry is being phased out in the last few years.
P.S. having bad form while pieing and saying it's the best he can do is another tick for the goofy meter.
Your training for the 1%. A committed enemy will fight to the death. Rarely will we ever have the element of surprise. They know we are coming. Accept the fact that you will take rounds and do your best to make your rounds count when you have that bad guy in your sights.
this should be called "we prefer dynamic entry because.." Pieing under the right circumstances can save your life. Instead of bashing slow pieing we should be talking about how situations dictate techniques. Project Gecko has some amazing CQB lessons where they break this all down a lot. My opinion. We should all just constantly be training new and different ideas until we find the most efficient way to work an issue. Pieing doorways can work great under certain situations and dynamic movements can work in others. Both are extremely important to learn.
I think real players understand and use the video and comments to, "think about this" in the context in which they will probably encounter it.
Isn't that exactly what they did??? (15:00)
Well the guy was in Delta for many years of CQB warfighting, so..... I will prefer what Scott prefers since his knowledge was paid for in blood -including his own.
He gave very concise descriptions of when he would use lim pen
@@MrCashewkitty from what i know the thought process of red team guys is "yeah walls dont stop bullets... but id rather have a wall between me and the person that's shooting me, then nothing but air."
Literally the best,common sense video on room clearing that I’ve ever watched. Backed with real word experiences. Great video
I believe they call it institutional inertia 😂
There is a reason tier 1 switched to pieing unless it's HBT or active engagement. No reason to go dynamic if it hasn't kicked off yet.
This is a Proper explanation. People don’t realize this is a fight. Not that u can’t pan or pie similarly blocking in a fight . Forcing your will on the opponent while he’s still talking shit ready to push but you throw a proper fast and aggressive jab then straight . Who’s gonna win ? The only thing is the lie pan is easier so they promote it. Moving I’m fast is harder and takes work
Outstanding content. Can't wait to share this with my instructor cadre. I have been preaching this ever since you taught it to me.
Doesn't hurt knowing and practising both. If your cqb loses momentum during a firefight, you can switch from dynamic to pie.
Similarly, you have the enemy pinned or have gained the advantage to have momentum you can switch from pie to dynamic.
The most harmful thing that damaged law enforcement tactical training I have seen so far is bunch of ex-milirary who are so sure of themselves advocating Dynamic Entry so much under a misguided view that cops are suddenly expendable commandos when people wish them to be.
There is a reason these people did not show the technique they advocate under force on force against same skill opponents in UNSCRIPTED scenarios.
One error I want to point out here. Seeing the opponent first before the opponent sees you is NOT the primary reason for slicing the pie, although some instructors who teaches it even says that because even they lack the understanding of it. The actual primary reason is to recognize everything in the new revealed space. If an person moves too fast or rush in to a room, typically happens in Dynamic Entry, that person may "see" the room immediately, but make take a few more seconds to "recognize" a threat that blended into the background of the new space, while the opponent already blasted that person away. That problem does not manifest in a sterile training environment where opponents or simulated opponents sticks out like a beacon against a mostly plain featureless background.
Can’t wait for the next one.
Worldclass! Thanks!
His c clamp is not far out enough to stabilize that gun. Grab the brake.
Awesome!
Amazing video, just subscribed. Thankyou
To me it's a freaking coin toss. We have no idea what the BG is doing, where he's at, nor what he's going to do. There are a number of scenarios where you'd want to pie, BUT there are a number of scenarios where dynamic makes sense. I would offer this. If you are going to pie don't inch out slowly. Take a piece of the pie quickly and keep it. Another thing rarely discussed is sound. So many approach the topic of CQB as if the bad guy's ears don't work, ignoring the element sound might play. I ain't been in a house yet that the floors don't creak upstairs... just sayin.
You never want to jump out and secure a portion of a pie, you always want to pie AS SLOW AS POSSIBLE, so you can maxamize your chances of seeing peoples extremetes before they see you. Weither this be a shoulder, and elbow, a toe, a knee. Anything you can get the glimpse of someone being there before they see you and your winning the game off of that information gathered. If i jump out because im a big tough man, then we see eachother at the same time and its a gun fight and hopefully i win, hopefully my enemy wassent posted behind sandbags just waiting for me to do some dumb shit like jump a corner like i can aim bot everything on the other side ;)
I would like to see a in depth how to pie video from you guys or that officer, showing step by step everything you need to do and i would of also liked to see the officer that was pieing's persepective of that force on force scenario you showed
This was actually useful. Thanks.
Great job with the video Scotty! 👊
amazing
As mentioned in an early comment…it will ultimately be the shooters choice.
But in my humble opinion…its truly situational dependent.
If you’re alone…Cutting the pie may be your best option…not only to protect yourself and any potential victims, but to cover the spaces as you work to see and clear a room of possible BGs…but you need to be deliberate in your actions…Taking your time may get you shot.
Another great point was how it makes a huge difference if the walls are drywall, or something that can be considered Cover.
But if there’s two or more Good Guys going in to do “Work” and put that Bad Guys Mortal Coil to rest …then, again, in my own opinion…BE DYNAMIC.!
Because in my experience, a deliberate and moving strong force of action is much harder to shoot.
With multiple Good Guys breaching a room in opposing directions, it allows them to cover more area and angles, giving sight to possible dead spaces the other may not see…giving you a better chance of clearing and eliminating the target.
But…that’s just my humble opinion.
Either way, Great job with the video and this lessons brothers.
Be Safe.
When pie’n, Why doesn’t he switch shoulders with his rifle to reduce the amount of “flagging”? Would that change anything about the scenarios you presented?
Not everyone is good at shoulder switching.
@@MrNationalWonder well when it comes to safety and technique….you owe it to yourself to GET GOOD! Otherwise it’s just and excuse…
@@tactikooldad I agree 100%
Excellent video! You are very knowledgeable, and tactically sound. Liked and Subed.
Mission determines the tactic guys. There is no one size fits all.
Snake cams and periscopes are the tools that will reduce your exposure.
Great video. I was wonder if it was possible to find out where you got the blue safety BCG from? We have been looking for some for training and have had an issue finding them. Please advise. Thank you.
My Take in the first part of the video:
1. You dont lose the element of surprise - until the enemy knows you are there.
2. It´s maybe slow; but unless theres a bomb ticking which needs to be defused, or, because Reallife is not "Counterstrike", there´s a hostage situation with time running until hostages get shot; It doesn´t matter how slow you are - until the enemy knows you are there!
3. You don´t need Violence of action - until the enemy knows you are there.
There is absolutly nothing wrong with slicing the pie in certain situations.
If the enemy knows you are there and he aims at the doorway, he can also shoot you if you try a dynamic entry. If he knows you are at the threshold, you´re in trouble anyways, nomatter if you want to pie, or go dynamic. If the walls only conceal, you´re in more trouble if he knows you´re there.
"After shot at thrue drywall you can not simply shoot back"
- for LE Yes.. but also reality shows something else. If you are reciving fire, your life is at stake, you shoot back, even if you don´t have a clear target and if its only to surpress the enemy. Thats the reality and there are even videos of Cops and Swat doing exactly this here on youtube at channels like police activity! - and afaik they never got sentenced for it because it´s selfdefense at this point.(even if they hit innocent bystanders)
- for military.. they also have a right to selfdefence.
If there are unlucky hostages or other civilians in the room they are basicly screwed at this point. Thats the sad reality.
Dead space:
Your pieing stops at the moment you see someone, after that other methods apply.
if you go in dynamice you also bypass the deadspace and check the rest of the room until everything you can see is cleared, and than go on with dead corners. If someone hides behind a dead corner he can also start shooting after the first guy enters the room and his sightline is beyond his place. (the second guy usualy clears the opposite sides of the room first, so there is a time when noone will look at the deadspace and see him appear and start shooting (reality sucks, and no matter what you´ll do, you are vulnerable at one point or another if you clear a room.
Moving Targets:
In this video its demonstated with the enemy with his gun at low ready, looking at the doorway, awaiting an enemy... Yeah, maybe that can happen, but most likly the enemy is not standing there in this fashion, waiting for the entryteam. Also maybe the guy in the hallway he just shoot at, was his robberbuddy coming from another room?! The scenario here showing that the pie is a bad alternative is so unfavorable that also someone who would try a dynamic entry would get shot at the moment he walks in the fatal funnel. Both ways would fail here.
After all this is said:
I realy like this video, even if i do not agree with a lot of the points. For me: nothing considering CQB is written in stone, almost everything is highly dependable on the circumstances.
I´m pretty sure that a video on "pieing is the way to go, dynamic has to many flaws" could also get deconstructed in the same fashion.
Both are diffrent methods, both have their right to exist and both can be used to great effect. it all depends on circumstances.
I'm 100% with you, bro. The pieing is just a tool, you should use it when you need. not the only way/tool you use for a CQB, and furthermore we can also pie first and dynamic after. As you say "It all depends on circumstances."
I think the situation " totality of circumstances " will dictate which one to use. both serve a purpose
Try doing dynamic entry in paintball or airsoft?
“No plan survives contact with the enemy” was probably coined the first time some Tier 1 team did a dynamic entry on a room with a PKM on the other side of it 😂
There's guys that have operational expericene too say pieing is better. Mixed responses!
Why the guy at the threshold never do the shoulder transition? A lot of the problem around exposing would be solved if he had done it, he wouldn't be over exposing his support hand and would be able to unlock every angle in the room at the same time his muzzle does just like if he were coming from his strong side...
Where did he get his flannel?
This is a silly debate, situation dictates tactics, and once the first shot is fired all surprise is gone and the bad guy is waiting for you. Pie has its time and place as does dynamic entry, one should train both and know when to transition to both.
Ok pie is good alone... with more people just jump in the room really fast and they will freak out and not get you? Violence of action and speed with confusing the enemy. Better! Got it! Only one or two can return fire if you run in dynamic. Wtf?
enough talk, let go force on force, paper walls with simunation, because Israeli and British people are saying Dynamic doesn't hold up outside of HRT context when doing force on force, meaning they often get hit doing Dynamic entry, and are costing lives, but then there are good points for dynamic, the German teams are also using Pie because we have solid cinderblock/rock/brick walls here also in the interior.
Devgru and Delta have also said the same thing. This is a old school way of thinking. Both ways need to be utilized.
This is a great video to send to someone when you need an example of a horrible way to enter a room. thank you so much! I hope you never get the opportunity to teach anyone the "dynamic entry". It'd be a waste of human life.
The guy is from a famous USASOC Tier1 unit...i don't think you have to teach something to anyone...
@@sofit oh cool so he's trying to leverage his clout into making people run into a room blindly with an armed combatant. good to hear
@@GRRRPOWPOW so you think to know and have better skills than any usasoc guy that used these tactics DAILY against terrorists overseas?
@@sofit refer to my previous comment
@@GRRRPOWPOW the main principle is to get more guns into the room quickly, it is the same reason why the assault force should be 3:1 than enemy. To get the job done you must have a 3 guns PRO shooter skills...it doesn't work if used by no professional or poor trained guys. You must have skills that support tactics, not use tactics that support your skills.
Maybe transition the rifle to his left shoulder and lose that C clamp grip, he will have much less of himself exposed
What background do you come from?
Thanks for watching! This video was a lot of hard work and a lot of fun to make! Let us know in the comments what you think slicing the pie vs dynamic entry. We will be making more Tactical Tidbits and your comments will help us figure what type of tactical videos to make in the future!
I appreciate your effort. Good points and good comments. Getting people to think about it is priceless.
I like both dynamic and pie. Both have their places. Either can instantly blend into the other, so it is important to be competent in both.
Do a video on lazy assaulter tactics. Where you set fire to the structure and pick off the squirters exiting. If they don't exit,they die. ATF,FBI and Delta Force used it at Waco.😏But we don't wanna talk about that here huh?🤣
What’s all the tally marks for on the side of the door frame? Not a military guy so it may be stupid to ask this. 🤷♂️
This is good shit man. Always had to argue with people back in the day, because everyone wanted to do the stupid stuff, because they thought they were "safer" and they end up surviving to death. As a squad leader i hated other people trying to teach my guys their old ways crap
Quite literally any force on force will go bad inevitably if you polarize ideas and actions. Deliberate entry has a time and usage, as does dynamic.
I’ll tell you right now, you couldn’t pay me enough money to dynamically enter a space alone 😂
Are those LMT training BCGs?
15:27: As I am not in the Special operator community, what is a ballistic wall?
he is talking about a wall that can be shot through or not. which doesent make a whole lot of sense in reality. because as former red team guys have put it so perfectly "would you rather have drywall between you and bullets, or air???"
👍🏻
Of course you're going to be exposed more if you don't transfer shoulders while radiusing the door before entry.
I know I am very late to the party on this video. Having been a SWAT officer in a federal agency for 4 years, I disagree with almost everything that was presented in this video. If I addressed everything that is wrong with people straw manning slow methodical clearing, I'd be here all day.
I felt it was highly important to point out one major flaw in their arguments ... at about 3/4 of the way through the video, the plaid guy talks about his FLETC certification as an active shooter instructor and how even FLETC only teaches pieing during active shooter situations. While this might have been the case 20 years ago when he got his certification, it is no longer true. I went through FLETC as an officer in 2006. My class was the first one where the tactics taught for CQB were primarily pieing based (honestly, it was a little more of a hybrid between dynamic and methodical). That was over 15 years ago now that FLETC changed their basic LEO CQB tactics!!!!
I don't blame him for sharing the information that he had based on his training; it was correct given his training. I do regret when people stop keeping track of current ideas and relying only on what they learned 20+ years ago.
Do it with sims and unscripted opfor, let's see the difference.
The environment dictates our response. There is definitely a time for slow and deliberate and dynamic. Teaching guys to run dynamic without proper shooting drills under stress WILL cause problems. Guys will move too quick and think after a drill “job well done” without processing what they just looked at. Because they didn’t. They ran to one side or another without truly looking. Often times they drilled that way because of the headshed. Looks sexy but will get guys hurt. That is a unique and difficult thing to train effectively and can’t be taught without shooting principles while moving. Don’t move any faster than you can make a good decision and accurately shoot. Slow and deliberate allows for quite a bit of consumption of the room with relative concealment and maybe cover if lucky. While committing to a pie, if done correctly, your toe never bypassing your elbow, if you contact someone, all it takes is a challenge or dynamic entry given the situation. Or step away to you original point of cover. Cover angles and negotiate. Both take a lot of training. On the range and in scenarios. Much love. Just throwing this out there.
Bro is this STAG arms that makes the Stag rifles?
SHOULDER SWITCHING.
Awesome very knowledgeable content
When you guys made entry you both seem to ignore the guy on the couch, and checking both your corners before coming back to him. Should the first man keep rifle on couch guy and 2-3 get corners instead?
Dig your corners and clear to the center. The idea is that the suspect in the middle of the room has his attention divided between the two good guys, which for a brief moment of time causes him some confusion and puts him into reaction. If you enter and focus on the guy in the middle of the room but miss a guy in the corner then the guy in the corner basically has both officers to shoot in a line.
But that’s why they said in the video they prefer 3+ to enter a room. You get your corners and the center covered as quick as you can get the guys in the room.
Cqb is extremely dangerous even when excuted perfectly. That’s why the #1 rule is don’t do it unless the safety priorities dictate it needs to be done.
@@MidnughtMerauders So your relying on the third guy in to address the perp in the center of the room? What if the perps are waiting for you? The dude in the center has you in fatal funnel.
@@jeanvaljean341 contemporary cqb is all digging corners. Pop the guy thru the threshold if you have the skill but if you miss the guy in the corner he has your whole squad dead to rights. If a guy is posted on the treshhold with an itchy trigger finger then it’s a bad day and provably a room we shouldn’t be entering without utilizing other tools and tactics.
Is that a repr
I was always taught don't get in a hurry to die. Unless you are trying to save someone or keep them from destroying some vital intel or evidence going fast is not called for.
So This-- When you popped up the blue/red highlight he is forgetting that his optic is about 1.5 inches above the actual barrel, so while he is looking through the red dot and can see in the room his barrel is clearly blocked by the door jam and would not be able to engage a target in the room
There is a lot wrong with this video. He also didn't transfer shoulders for his door radius.
@@jhutch1470 why change shoulders when most people are not as capable manipulating the weapon and accurate off hand
@@caps139 Sorry. I forgot, there's no such thing as training.
@@jhutch1470 agree, train on it. But most people don’t even have the time, ammunition to train strong side to the level of skill needed, never mind offhand
@@caps139high speed guys are NOT changing shoulders in real firefights. There's a ton of tier one dudes out there saying as much.
DE when the baddie doesn't know you're there. TP when the baddie does.
Mostly correct, but sometimes you dont know if he knows so you use slicing as a basis.
Why isn’t the guy using a left handed pie? Less exposure to body..
The principles of cqb are not "gospel." They really only fully apply in wartime.
As LE you can t just go barrelling into every room like that. A big part of LE ROE is doing callouts from a reasonable cover with 'eyes on.'
I don t think that Scott's background is allowing him to see the big picture.
Arresting is the best case scenario, while initiating a gunfight is the last resort. Only then does dynamic meet the need.
If you watch a lot of law enforcement encounters on youtube. Police officers do not typically go in guns blazing they have to access the situation to see if they are any good guys or bad guys.
Pie'n is a smooth movement, not an inch steep
The biggest problem people with a little training right through to moderate training and up is seeing this kind of stuff in binary terms or black and white. Do this. Never do that. Do this first. Only do this if X BUT NEVER at any other time. CQB and room clearing especially is a 4D web of juicy context.
I believe the Israelis have mostly abandoned the dynamic entry. Yet you make some very reasoned arguments. See UF Pro CQB for example.
Single officer or team response to a active killer with gunshots is not a slow and methodical ( pie) its dynamic and fast! Its also the best situation because you can hear the shots and therefore know where to go! Most on scene response is going to be a slower and more methodical clear and search as you go searching for the suspect(s)!
If you’re single officer and the gunfire takes you down to a classroom, why not consider a quick pie/pan and pick him off outside the room if feasible, rather than enter to kill Harris but have Klebold eat you up from the angle you didn’t and can’t pick up
@@MidnughtMerauders not gonna argue your point my man but in my career the old trusted aggressiveness of speed, surprise and most importantly of violence of action usually wins the day! I have seen a move to lesser levels of aggression in the last few years leading up to my retirement in 2016. Again, just my opinion!
@@kinch613 I know you can move on Harris as aggressive and fast as you want but you’re going to miss Klebold in the periphery as a single officer. That’s all. Just a consideration as a single officer. We teach the pie for that circumstance and even then it’s shooters choice.
We teach a blitz to the shots and consider a pie if time and opportunity allow in the event that there’s a second suspect.
Congrats on retirement, I can’t wait
@@MidnughtMerauders absolutely agree on multiple suspects and being able to utilize both speed etc, whilst still working basics. I was more referring to the fact so many in our profession are trying to make everything as safe as possible. Its a dangerous occupation and you must take these risks. I used to tell folks why leave the station/office etc? We can be flexible and combine all of these aspects of tactical work. Retirement is damn good brother. When you see the light at the end of the tunnel and you know its not a train is a good day. Be safe and have fun. After all its why we mostly got into the biz.
I find myself in disagreement here.
While we can all agree that at the end of the day both pieing and dynamic entry are tools in the kit of an assaulter, and they should be used depending on the situation, it feels like this presentation is clearly only focused on the cons of pieing, without actually weighing them against the benefits.
Yes, deliberate entries/limited penetration has its downsides, nothing is free in the world. You're definitely trading speed for security and control. But even with all these downsides most modern CQB experts seem to agree that it is safer than Dynamic most of the time.
Saying that the bad guy can shoot you through the wall is a good point, but then agai if the threat is so aware they're probably gonna shoot you as you move in too, and have a much easier time at it.
This video seems very focused on law enforcement CQB, which seems pretty different from military CQB where you can have multiple threats in a room, and usually multiple threats in separate rooms in a building.
I'm even surprised at the mention of the three principles of CQB, as those are listed dynamic entries in mind: Surprise, Speedb Violence of Action, Lose one you Lode them all. And that is waaay more relevant with DEs, as flooding a room with an aware threat is close to suicide.
At the end of the day I'm more convinced by ex-SOF guys teaching and praising limited penetration, like project Gecko or Modern Tactical Shooting.
You are comparing apples and oranges. How is that helpful? Which one is better is completely situational.
Let me come train with you! For real
Maybe combine the pie entry and dynamic.after identifying the threat then applying dynamic entry.
WoW I'll prayer for you!
There’s nothing driving you to immediately enter the room like Hostage Rescue or Active Assailant Response.
Okay, operator-9000.
I don't like pie - ing. You may wish you did.i don't like dynamic- you need to have it in your toolbox.
I’m my experience in 20 years of law enforcement. Most encounters with a suspect. The suspect has no training in firearms or tactics. And using the Israeli pie tactic has never failed me. There’s a place for dynamic entry and a place for Israeli or tactical pie. Which ever way you want to call it. it’s all situation dependent. I understand the argument being made in the video but I respectfully disagree
bro your man using the wrong hand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣😂
1:25 this is the wrong stance. rifle butt should be on LEFT shoulder to show minimal body mass. using the shown stance, you will be showing your whole body before your rifle can ACQUIRE a target. YOU ARE ALREADY DEAD.🤣🤣🤣
You obviously having a 1000 men standing by to take the team's possition you just lost?!
All depends on the situation.
He said does not like but used to catch the other guy.
So? Inconsistency detected
WHY YOU FLANKING ME BRO
You can really tell theyve never been to a country with properly built houses
Why does chip cant his gun? Dont be like chip
These haven’t seen the South African special tactics fellas…
If you're gonna slice pie, you'd better have real cover to get back behind. If it's just drywall you might as well go dynamic and get in as quick as possible.
really think about this... would you rather have drywall between you and bullets, or air???
@@notsure9301 slicing pie doesn't put you in as good of a position for offense as a dynamic entry. It's better to get in with the element of surprise and fire first than to be seen before entering and have nothing to retreat behind as the bullets come toward where they last saw you. I never fought in war, not SWAT, etc. But I've been a Nuclear Security Officer for 14 years, and that's my my assessment. Everyone can do what they prefer.
@@Jaystub it allows you to see people before they see you if done right, and fighting from a barricade of the threshold is much more advantageous then running into a room. where you have no cover in any sense.
modern cqb tactics rely on clearing 90 percent of the room before stepping into the room and then dealing with the hard corners afterwards
@@Jaystub the whole flood the room and win that way was devised in the 60's. cqb has advanced way past that. the main downfalls is if you have a person barricaded in the room and ready for the peoiple to come in, the first 4 people in get drilled instantly and then you have to throw fashbangs and do a bunch of weird stuff to try and win back the room with 4 guys in the door way.
also even in it does goe as planned, the third man is tasked with taking the center and on average that takes 6 seconds to take place. idc how fast you move your not bidazzling a bunch of baddies with your tactically footwork for 6 seconds.
@@notsure9301 when I first started my career we were trained in slice the pie. About 5 years later that was thrown out in favor of dynamic entry. I don't think either or is a "modern" tactic. I think slice the pie is a poor method without actual cover. You expose yourself more slowly giving the room more time to see you, and if you retreat back behind the false cover, you're now blind, out of the fight, and taking fire in your direction without cover. If we're playing airsoft or paintball or something, then by all means drywall is an acceptable barrier. Assuming the enemy is firing back with .223 or better though, the drywall might as well not be there. Bottom line, if you're exposing yourself at all without actual cover, you might as well be in the best offensive fighting position as quickly as possible. Slicing pie is worthwhile only in a situation with real cover available....just my opinion based on the training I've received. (edit) all of our training focuses on defense of a nuclear plant where time is of the essence, and the weapons wielded by the bad guys are assumed to be capable of shooting through drywall and studs for the most part. This may not be the case for police entering rooms with unknown weapons, or possible hostages, etc. I can only speak to the scenarios I've been trained for.
Good graphics. most guntubers suck at those
If there is backspace. The Pies win. If Not. U got no choice but too cut it.