@DeveryAndrews slightly heavier, measurably faster, much more comfortable and definitely faster when cornering at high speeds. A win nearly across the board
As a triathlete, I totally jumped onto the wide tire/lower pressure trend. I didn't really care about the speed difference simply because I noticed I could run at almost race-pace within the first mile of the run. Previously with 23mm tires up at 100+ PSI, it would take about 2 miles of running out the stiffness. In my case, even if I did lose a couple minutes on the bike, since I felt so much fresher off the bike, I could easily make it up on the run. That being said, I was consistently setting PRs on wider tires even though they felt slower. Glad to see that feeling fast isn't the same as being fast. I'm currently running 52/57 PSI on Zipp 303, 28mm, and once those tires wear out, I'm absolutely going up to 30mm.
On my gravel bike that's setup for road riding I went from the stock 38mm tubed Pathfinder sports to a tubed 32mm Maxxus Pursuer and it was a decent uptick in speed. Then I went to 32mm tubeless Conti5000 S TRs and it was a world of difference. I'm 180lbs and I run them at 45-55psi and they're faster than anything else I've ridden. I'm currently testing out a set of tubed Conti 4 Season 28mms and they feel ok around 75psi, but they're definitely more chattery than my tubeless 32 Conti5000s @ 50psi. Could be a combination of lower pressure and less rolling resistance, but I'd try a tubeless 32mm at a lower pressure than what you're running and see if you notice a difference. For me it was night and day going to a faster, wider, tubeless tire in the vibrations making their way up into the handlebars, so I now aim for anything tubeless.
I’m on 23 Conti 5000s with latex tubes. They seem to provide the best aero profile on my Roval Rapide CLX60s IMO, and I use Silca’s tire pressure calculator.
Latex works as a charm. If you can, try wider size on the back. Use lesser pressure for that one, you’ll have both aero and bit more comfort in the back.
28 on all fast road bikes / fixie bikes, 25 on my C50 ‘cos there’s no room for more, 38 to 42 on my gravel. I have the Michelin Power Cup in 28 indeed measure 29/30
If your roads are super smooth like Florida, 25s almost make sense. But, 28s are still more comfortable and that is the size the design dollars are going to so it makes more sense to ride 28s.
I don't race or anything.... I just ride for fun and exercise. I don't ride my road bike anymore with 25mm/100psi. Recently got a gravel bike with 40mm and that thing is just SO DAMN COMFORTABLE when I am on the roads I have no desire for anything narrower. At 40psi rear/38 front I could almost describe the ride as luxurious and I don't feel slower whatsoever.
I think they say wider is faster cause there’s less vertical deflection so more energy is kept making you go horizontall, so faster. Being more comfortable is a bonus.
I have the Michelin Power Cup clincher tire in a 25c....and it measures out to 30mm on the 23 internal/30 external. Running it with pirelli tpu tubes....love it, super fast and comfy
In 5 years I moved from 23C to 32C(rear)-28C(front) with only weight penalty that beeing said is nice to see a person honest about himself despite popular believe. GC Performance has moved up some points on my respect. Cheers!
thanks so much!!! yea I had to make a video because over the 2 years on UA-cam I know i always made fun of and always said I would never, but once I got the chance to try it out and felt it for like a real test, where I wasn't stuck in my old ways, I really did feel the difference and I wanted to try and help anyone else in the same situation as me. it was nice for me at least
I'm 6' 195lbs. I ride 28c on Zipp 404s at 65 psi front and 70 rear. There's no better set up that I've found. I fly on the bike and it's comfortable. Plus, the tires are super easy to mount and dismount (Pirelli P Zeros or Schwalbe Pro Ones). Win Win
Hi, thanks for you thoughts. As an owner of trek madone slr in the past and one size smaller than i have to I would recommend you switch to the endurance geometry frame. Most likely “all” your pain will go away and you will be even faster because of comfort. Recently i sold trek which is a great machine (had dt arc1100 wheels with ceramic bearings) to scott addict 10, not the RC. And my happiness and enjoy of the ride came back. And yes, i was using 21mm on the front wheel on madone and now 28mm such a big difference and in the speed as well, especially in avg speed. Just try endurance and probably you’ll be surprised. We want to be a pro and need race bikes but reality a bit different. Cheers
@@Necromonger69 if you race then 28mm would make a difference in speed and comfort. Your wheels will need to be wide enough to properly support the wider tire. If you don’t race use the widest tire your bike can handle.
Hooked rims, 28c tires, latex tubes, 80 psi....I have moved from 25c and butyl tubes at 100 psi. Conti 5000 tires. I am at about 190lbs. Love the new setup, best riding and performance I have ever had.
I'm pretty much the same on all counts and have the same experience. More speed and comfort. It's a no brainer. Can't wait to see how these tires do on a wider wheel set
@@bonbonflippers4298 I carry a couple of TPU tubes as spares but have not run them full-time yet. Given the similarities in rolling resistance to Latex they would definitely be a consideration.
I'm glad you mentioned your shop is in Florida. I also grew up in the late 1980's running 700x21C and 23C tires at over 100 PSI and road them for decades in the upper Midwest where the roads are awful due to freeze/thaw. I now ride 700x32C tires on wide rims at around 60 PSI and for the road conditions where I live, they are a game-changer. I no longer come back from rides feeling like I've been bludgeoned by a hammer under my butt, yet my average speeds haven't suffered at all. Wider tires absolutely "feel" slow, but make sure your data supports your feelings... you could be wrong!
The bicycle industry pushed the trend for wide tires with lower pressure because they were cheaper to manufacture. And introducing it as an "innovation" can give them an opportunity to sell it at a high price. Double profit 🤣
When I went from 25 to 28 I felt the difference right from the start. I had the same speeds and efforts but a more smooth, comfy ride. I'm running DT Swiss Arc 1400s with Schwalbe One tires at about 70 psi and it feels so smooth yet fast.
Very much depends on the roads you are riding on. On smooth roads 25 is faster but on the roads I ride on-shitty cracked potholed affair 30-32 at 4-4,5 bar is hard to beat.
Tubeless 32c Goodyear eagles on enve foundation 45s (~50psi) since 2020. Never going back to tubes or anything narrower. Don’t race, but like to ride fast AF. Since 2010 i used 23c tubed with velocity deep-v wheels on my daily street track bike, which are 14mm internal width, and i thought that was optimal. Recently put 28c tires on those velocity wheels and they are still a rough ride compared to tubeless 32c enve wheels. Hands down faster and more comfortable ride since making the switch. Glad to see the tour pros winning on wider tires. Makes sense to me!
Still have some new Michelin Hi-Lite Pros 700x19 in a box,Im runnin 25's on all my roadbikes,its a roadbike & not a mountainbike,fatter tires add more weight,theres too many profilers who look for comfort & wanna look the part when in fact they should of bought a mtn bike,if u cant ride 50 miles on a roadbike hang it up ,I used steel frame with 19's with no problem ,now bikes & wheels are carbon & people have gotten soft
Now get them setup tubeless, it’s just next level in combination with wider tyres. It’s just another level - more comfort, more fast, no punctures (if you use decent fluid that actually seals at high pressure like Stans race or silca ultimate). It’s the dream 😍
Let's enjoy what we have and the different characteristics of bikes. I have a Legendary Triban 3, Shimano wheels and run Challenge XP Elite 27mm. Clearly its not the fastest or the best bike. However it's sweet a pleasure to ride. Top gear 50x11, lowest 30x32 so I have a better range than bikes costing vast amounts. Just treated myself to new FD and RD derailleurs total cost £43 /c.$50. I also ride a tubeless 40mm gravel setup. The Old 27mm set up is a bit faster. But clearly less versatile!
Good info as always. I cut my teeth in the 90s and early 2000s so skinny tires was just a way of life. But I for one am super happy to accept the wider and lower pressure overlords.
Pros are still riding 25s on their TT bikes, which is more relevant to the real world. The only reason 28 and wider works on the road is that their sitting in a peloton of 200 riders and seeing no wind, then finishing up a hill. The aerodynamic penalty that we regular riders deal with is reduced for the pro riders in the key situations of the race.
Personally I don’t think it’s the wider tier per say rather the tier being supported properly by a wider rim. I ride tier that measures 28c when mounted and provides an almost flush transition to them rim. I run these at 60psi for my weight of 63kg and the rough roads round here. And sure there they don’t float over the bigger hits/cracks but there fine and don’t feel beat up after my 50mile rides. This set up is new to me for the summer. Last month I got my self 309 pr’s, so it’s not all about getting the widest rubber but properly supporting that rubber. In general though those miche’s are a much much faster tier than those challenges. There up there when installed with latex tubes with the conti str. I generally think that’s what your noticing more than anything. I loved the miche’s when I ran them but they need to sort the tread cap width.
I see little reason to buy hookless rims. Also, I descend at 30-45mph for twenty minutes straight on a typical road ride, so I'm not taking many chances. But I have been very happy with wider tires. I have 28s on my Roubaix, on the Elite Drive 50Ds. Great combination.
A really well presented discussion. I had no idea your Dad owned your bike shop. Indeed, you have a very long relationship with the older bikes and I go way back because I am a fair amount older. To me and I too have ridden it all, I say, don't fall in love. All good. I do believe 25 is better than 23 and 19 for bigger guys...I am 6'1" and 175 lbs...have been bigger but I like to be lean for the bike. So 25-28 is fine. But I am also a mechanical engineer and see the downside. Wider tires are heavier and also have 'poorer' aerodynamics...they punch a bigger hole in the wind which isn't good. It takes more power to spool them up and bike riding is a series of accelerations. But, I don't get a hair shirt on about 28's which we can all ride at lower pressures even with tubes. I will tell you what I won't buy. No hookless rims for me. I too live in Florida and like to ride with slightly higher tire pressure because of smooth roads here. What I tell people is...experiment, pick your equipment of choice and ride it but don't be deceived believing any of the newest stuff is going to make you faster. Some of the newer bikes are still ball busting-ly stiff even with wider tires. Instead of uber wide tires, pick a frame that isn't bone jarring and a geometry that won't kill your back and neck. Glad you are finding time to ride GC because owning a bike shop is a huge job and you even find time for youtube videos and no idea how you balance it all. Respect.
Most newer wheels are aero optimized for 28c tires. So,...no point in riding 25c. The top would tour pros ride 28c and I promise you they spend time in the wind tunnel.
You should try latex inners iso tpu ones. Less rolling resistance (tho it’s like 0.0001 or so, lol) but the ride gets more plush, using same pressures. Guess your back will be happy with it.
Mr GC bad news about the L4 L5 I can commiserate. Phat tires are great for disc deterioration. I run big 45 Continental Terra Trails on my gravel bike at 40 PSI. Don't seem that slow to me and they sure feel good soaking up those aberrations. I've run continental Gatorskin 28s on my road bikes for years. It's all about who you're trying to keep up with. Thanks for the great videos #1 in education and entertainment.
I now ride a 28mm tire on a 28mm id od rim with a pressure of 80 psi. For me, as I also am a heavier rider, gives excellent stability and low rolling resistance. The lower pressure allows the tire to absorb defects in the road without having to move the entire bike. I used to ride tubbies exclusively for their superior handling, but the wide tire comes very close to the tubbies.
You might be even faster and more comfortable at 71/73 F/R. Check out the Silca tire pressure online calculator. It always recommends way lower pressures than I am used to but the riding is also always faster and smoother.
I was running latex tubes, then I went tubeless with Vittoria inserts for safety, man was it better. Tubeless is softer, and much nicer if you have back and hand issues, it's worth it. Also the sound is so much louder with latex tubes than tubeless - can I hysteresis between tubes and tires, we will never know 😅.
I just od not lioke changing tubeless and the mess of it, its something about me working on peopls fuck ups with tubeless allday I am kind of scorned by it lol
28c measures 30mm wide. The big question is, what is the depth? If you only measure the width (aero), you're missing a huge part of the equation, spring/mass system. Don't ever inflate your tires based on width alone, especially if you have carbon rims!
I've got 2 road bikes, both running 28c. The difference to me comes from switching one to tubeless (I mountain bike, no big deal to do this) and running 60(F)/65(R)...I can go out for a metric century (100km/62 miles) and come back feeling great. On the other bike I need to run 95/105 and after half that distance I hate the damn bike, everything clattering, feel every bump and chip on the road, just awful...next upgrade on the tubeless bike may well be to 30mm. Mind you I seem to recall back in the 80's the standard road tyres(not racing) were 1 1/4"? (so what- maybe go to 32mm??)
@@danielakerman8241 Good point, I am usually 2-3km/h faster on the tubeless set up, but then again the bikes aren't the same, and the faster one has DT Swiss P1800 32mm rims whereas the tubed has older rim Aksiums (24mm??)...hard to pinpoint why that difference is there though.
Tire pressure is a big factor. I have been running 45 psi rear and 40psi front on my gravel bike and it felt very snappy, lowered the pressure to 35 rear and 30 front for the past few days just to see how it feels and the bike felt very sluggish and I rode it twice different days. I am running the specialized pathfinders 32mm front and 38 rear, true size of the 38 is 40 with air and 32 is 33 with air. But it might be different if I run it on the gravel, usually our gravel route here is 50/50 tarmac and gravel so rolling resistance is still a big factor on the tarmac. Decision, decisions.
I'm also running the pathfinder pros 42c tires. Have them at 50psi rear, 45 front. I am 190lbs. If put lower than 50psi at the rear it starts to feel spongy. So far comparing it to my 30c road bike tires they're almost as fast on the flats and have put some PRs on certain segments which I find hilarious considering it's grave tires vs gp5000 30c...
I run the Pathfinder S Works, they only come in a 42, on my gravel bike. I run 35 rear, 32 front. I’m 74kg and they feel great on gravel and are still quick on the road! 👍
i use 30 on road bike. better in bad road. when i use 28 my innertube not last long. when hit hole or a rock. i got puncture more often with 28. but since use 30 i get less puncture because an impact.
I think the rolling speed point with the larger tyres is less about gearing (which is almost irrelevant unless you're riding a single-speed), but mainly about the "flywheel" effect you see from adding weight to the outside of the wheel. This is something that's often overlooked in the drive for lighter and lighter wheels (a lighter wheel will accelerate faster but also lose momentum faster). However, in my experience, there's always a trade off, particularly in regards to climbing.
Hookless can be run near 200psi, think was Zipp employee or someone high in bike research said so, just the etrto I think they said told them to say 70 or 73 is max
178lbs and run 25mm tires on 19mm internal width rims, I run 80psi front and 85psi rear and TPU inner tubes. I'd run 28mm tires other than the manufacturers information says 25mm max tire size on both of my bikes, I don't know whether that's driven by the frame or the Shimano rim brake clearance.
700 x 28s on a 25 mm inner width balloons to 31mm on 33.5 outer rim. Flying. 140 lbs 46PSI. tubeless. I averaged over 23mph for the last month. Creo ebike.
I'm using 28C Vittoria Corsa Control at the back and stock MAXXIS 25mm at the front. Should I stick to 28C once I start replacing any of the wheels? Oh and definitely more comfort for 28C at the back
Hookless is dangerous and just a way for a company to make a wheel lighter without investing in r and d. Tubless/clincher hooked wheels or even tublars for the win 🙂
Hi.. good job on the video. I too have been starting to switch over to 28mm tires. For many years I was riding 23mm on my casd8. Then I upgraded to 25mm tires a few months ago when i picked up some Boyd Podiums. 25mm made a huge improvement in the ride. I recently purchased a bmc roadmachine and it has Vitoria Rubino 28mm. The feel good over rough patches .. but they feel very heavy.. or maybe it’s the near 2000gr BMC alloy wheels lol. Or the combo of both probably I want to upgrade the wheels obviously (Craft wheelset) and may stick to 28mm or possibly a 30.. I think tubeless sealant will work better on these size tires due to the much lower pressures. To me 25mm tire pressures are too high for sealant to work quickly. Question: Where is your bike shop?
28-32mm tires on a bike means it's not a road bike anymore. You've been in this industry long enough to know what a road bike is. Skinny tires and rim brakes. Put discs and fat tires on a bike that resembles the shape of a road bike and you still have a comfort bike. That's all these bikes are, comfort bikes. Specialized is killing cycling. Maybe not yet in your metro where the rich live but up North I don't see much of Specialized like I used to. I don't even see many high priced bikes out and about because the doctors and dentists that bought them don't ride them. They sit in some garage collecting webs because they are too expensive to maintain and keep on the road. They aren't even worth anything because they have no resale value, at least not to me because I would never buy a used carbon bike. That Van Rysel bike looks like a total piece of crap to me. Don't take any of this personally, I like you, and a lot of your videos but please try to be more truthful about what the industry is doing to bikes and where this is going. Try to be enlighten us about what people bring into your shop for service and service bills. I learned a lesson with SRAM eTap with hydraulic disc brakes after owning it 1 1/2 years then switched to Shimano DA and guess what, the brakes on it are turning out to be shit also. I have to bleed the rear every couple of months because I lose the modulation. I should have never had my frame builder build this bike for disc brakes. Now I'm stuck. And I will probably end up having another frame made for me. I rarely ever had to service the rim brakes on any bike I've ever owned.
I think your feedback about comfort are valid. However, I would avoid talking about what is actually faster unless you want to start doing your own testing or start citing others who have done the testing on wider vs narrower tires (and there is a lot of work that has been done on this).
What if you need to lean round a corner on those Michelin power tyres? There's no way there is enough grip or protection on the gum wall. They don't look right to me at all
On 21mm I’d rim I run 25c contis (wam 28c) at 60psi 28 I’d expect for my weight 50-55psi and that’s tubed I don’t get snake bikes and havnt come close to getting one.
I'm an 88kg Cat 1. I ride 28s and never pump them much over 65psi. Outside of time trialing, I haven't ridden anything smaller than a 28 for the last 12 years. The science has been out for so long. I'm blown away that anyone would take so long to come around to wider tires, at least since HED and Zipp started making wide rims
There is only one aspect that 25mm tires are faster than 28s now is that if you ride faster than 37-38kmh AVR then aerodynamics comes into the picture. Narrower 25mm profile is cutting thru the air better than 28. I stick to 25mm on my TT bike for race setup but for the rest I Switched all my wheels to 23-25mm inner width which is 28mm tires and I’m loving it.
But isn’t this an old subject? It’s been tested long time ago with numbers and that’s why we came from 18c to 23 to ….now 28 and 32. Unless you are riding on indoor track, Verdict is around 28 to 32 (30) is the fastest. If more on flat and higher speed 28 could be faster because more aero.
Love 28mm for long rides but I hate Hookless... it is useless and dangerous .... the only positive point is for the manufacturer. Making this type of rim is much simpler
to be hoenst, I have a weak core and out of shape and those bikes I am riding now are a size medium and Iam a large so the saddle to handlebar drop is higher then normal forcing me to have more weigh on my hands
Due to what was in stock when I blew a tire in SoCal on vacation, I'm now on 32 Corsa Nexts on front and back of my Roval CL II (51/63). I've never been riding faster - not sure if it's the tires or me or whatever. But I love them. When I need new ones, I'll probably go down to 30 to see what I think.
I would never ride a hookless rim. Never Never Never! I don't even enjoy riding my bike when the pressure is lower than 85psi. I can feel it and it annoys me.
No.. no... no.. wrong.. wrong.. wrong... it's not that lower pressure is just "more comfortable".. it's that it ACTUALLY FASTER!! Essentially for years we have only been considering half.. depending on speed & roughness of the road LESS than half the resistance.. i.e. were ONLY considering the energy lost to flexing the tire.. BUT the higher the pressure, the more vibrations makes it through the tire.. through the bike and into the rider. Where do you figure the energy come from to vibrate your body? (A: from your forward moment and ultimately from your legs)?? How much of those vibration of that big floppy meat bag (rider) sitting on top of that bike make it back into the road (A: almost none!) And it's not only bumps and cracks.. road texture on "smooth" roads that produces road buzz also vibrates your body and causes losses... It's totally normal that you would perceive thinner, harder tires as being faster. Tests of human perception confirm that when being vibrated the sh!t out of, humans will perceive they are going faster.. so you're normal.. but wrong.. your perception is not reality! when you're setting tire pressure you should be aiming for what feels smooth not what feels fast.. eventually you will just get used to it and you'll understand you're going fast 🤷🏾♂
@@GCPerformance18 i use continental TLR or Pirelli TLR nvr have issues w/flates, once i got a flat i plugged it and was on my way, i ride about 140 miles a week,
Gonna beat the drum here for hookless. TRY IT TUBELESS. The problems you’ve brought up in other videos are really not an inherent problem of hookless rims - it’s a problem with tire tolerance. As long as the bead seat diameter is correct and consistent, and the tire is built so it won’t flex excessively, it’s perfectly safe! Those Zipp wheels look 🔥🔥
You simply cannot look at the PROs and copy what they do, with the logic that "If the pros do it, they must know what's beat!" The pro teams had us riding 19mm tires @ 110psi for DECADES. And everyone 'knew' that was fastest. 🤨 Then we heard that wider is better. It seems like anything less than 28mm is scoffed at these days. Maybe we should all ride 2.1" MTB tires on the road!?😂 All you should do is experiment with width and pressure. If you're a numbers geek, do some testing with power/speed to make it fun! Ride on!
I did a test on this, I used tpu tubes and also 120 psi, with 25c. against a 28c tire on tubeless with 73psi.... the tpu was almost 1mph faster over 5 miles
Just that all World Tour teams have now 28mm tires says enough, i can't imagine they would go for slower tires or for more rolling resistance.
Jonas has a 30 on the rear
They are also heavier.
@DeveryAndrews slightly heavier, measurably faster, much more comfortable and definitely faster when cornering at high speeds. A win nearly across the board
@@reinholdachleitner2069 well that was kinda my point there, i think you missed it.
Got it,for them any gain is an advantage but wind resistance is a rider's biggest obstacle.💯✌🏻
As a triathlete, I totally jumped onto the wide tire/lower pressure trend. I didn't really care about the speed difference simply because I noticed I could run at almost race-pace within the first mile of the run. Previously with 23mm tires up at 100+ PSI, it would take about 2 miles of running out the stiffness. In my case, even if I did lose a couple minutes on the bike, since I felt so much fresher off the bike, I could easily make it up on the run. That being said, I was consistently setting PRs on wider tires even though they felt slower. Glad to see that feeling fast isn't the same as being fast. I'm currently running 52/57 PSI on Zipp 303, 28mm, and once those tires wear out, I'm absolutely going up to 30mm.
Lots of documentation on why wider tires FEEL slower even though they are not, on jan heine's blog.
@@joelv4495 28s never felt slower to me. Went to them a good 150k miles ago.
@@veganpotterthevegan I ran 28s in 2011 and ran 42c on a monster cross bike in 2015 before "gravel bikes" were a thing 😀
On my gravel bike that's setup for road riding I went from the stock 38mm tubed Pathfinder sports to a tubed 32mm Maxxus Pursuer and it was a decent uptick in speed. Then I went to 32mm tubeless Conti5000 S TRs and it was a world of difference. I'm 180lbs and I run them at 45-55psi and they're faster than anything else I've ridden. I'm currently testing out a set of tubed Conti 4 Season 28mms and they feel ok around 75psi, but they're definitely more chattery than my tubeless 32 Conti5000s @ 50psi. Could be a combination of lower pressure and less rolling resistance, but I'd try a tubeless 32mm at a lower pressure than what you're running and see if you notice a difference. For me it was night and day going to a faster, wider, tubeless tire in the vibrations making their way up into the handlebars, so I now aim for anything tubeless.
I’m on 23 Conti 5000s with latex tubes. They seem to provide the best aero profile on my Roval Rapide CLX60s IMO, and I use Silca’s tire pressure calculator.
Too narrow
Latex works as a charm. If you can, try wider size on the back. Use lesser pressure for that one, you’ll have both aero and bit more comfort in the back.
Never thought I see the day where I am excited about running wider tires on my bike but I am!!! what tire sizes are you all running??
28mm tubless
I run 32mm tires but those Michelin Power Cup tires are some of the best,awesome collection of your S-Works bikes.💯👌🏻
28 on all fast road bikes / fixie bikes, 25 on my C50 ‘cos there’s no room for more, 38 to 42 on my gravel. I have the Michelin Power Cup in 28 indeed measure 29/30
Are you going to put tube in those zipps on the Van Rysel? If yes, what would be psi (tube) on the hookless wheel and TL tires?
32mm for endurance rides, 30mm for shorter/faster rides, Zipp 303s wheels.
If your roads are super smooth like Florida, 25s almost make sense. But, 28s are still more comfortable and that is the size the design dollars are going to so it makes more sense to ride 28s.
I don't race or anything.... I just ride for fun and exercise. I don't ride my road bike anymore with 25mm/100psi. Recently got a gravel bike with 40mm and that thing is just SO DAMN COMFORTABLE when I am on the roads I have no desire for anything narrower. At 40psi rear/38 front I could almost describe the ride as luxurious and I don't feel slower whatsoever.
I think they say wider is faster cause there’s less vertical deflection so more energy is kept making you go horizontall, so faster. Being more comfortable is a bonus.
I have the Michelin Power Cup clincher tire in a 25c....and it measures out to 30mm on the 23 internal/30 external. Running it with pirelli tpu tubes....love it, super fast and comfy
In 5 years I moved from 23C to 32C(rear)-28C(front) with only weight penalty that beeing said is nice to see a person honest about himself despite popular believe. GC Performance has moved up some points on my respect. Cheers!
thanks so much!!! yea I had to make a video because over the 2 years on UA-cam I know i always made fun of and always said I would never, but once I got the chance to try it out and felt it for like a real test, where I wasn't stuck in my old ways, I really did feel the difference and I wanted to try and help anyone else in the same situation as me. it was nice for me at least
I'm 6' 195lbs. I ride 28c on Zipp 404s at 65 psi front and 70 rear. There's no better set up that I've found. I fly on the bike and it's comfortable. Plus, the tires are super easy to mount and dismount (Pirelli P Zeros or Schwalbe Pro Ones). Win Win
Hi, thanks for you thoughts. As an owner of trek madone slr in the past and one size smaller than i have to I would recommend you switch to the endurance geometry frame. Most likely “all” your pain will go away and you will be even faster because of comfort. Recently i sold trek which is a great machine (had dt arc1100 wheels with ceramic bearings) to scott addict 10, not the RC. And my happiness and enjoy of the ride came back. And yes, i was using 21mm on the front wheel on madone and now 28mm such a big difference and in the speed as well, especially in avg speed. Just try endurance and probably you’ll be surprised. We want to be a pro and need race bikes but reality a bit different. Cheers
Used to ride 23mm - now on 28/32mm depending on bike. Never felt better.🙂
When I went tubeless I also went to 25mm when 23mm was the norm and loved it. Now I ride 28mm, 30mm and even 32mm and I ain’t looking back.
Yeah, me too
I ride 25 tubeless, do you feel that the wider tires are faster or comfortable or both?
@@Necromonger69 if you race then 28mm would make a difference in speed and comfort. Your wheels will need to be wide enough to properly support the wider tire. If you don’t race use the widest tire your bike can handle.
Soon you will ride 2.4" tyres
Hooked rims, 28c tires, latex tubes, 80 psi....I have moved from 25c and butyl tubes at 100 psi. Conti 5000 tires. I am at about 190lbs. Love the new setup, best riding and performance I have ever had.
I'm pretty much the same on all counts and have the same experience. More speed and comfort. It's a no brainer. Can't wait to see how these tires do on a wider wheel set
I weigh the same and similar setup except on 30c tpu tubes at 75/70psi. Best of both worlds
@@bonbonflippers4298 I carry a couple of TPU tubes as spares but have not run them full-time yet. Given the similarities in rolling resistance to Latex they would definitely be a consideration.
@@ShawnIsBatman definitely try them. Have no issues. 2 bikes have them on with hundreds of miles and counting.
I'm glad you mentioned your shop is in Florida. I also grew up in the late 1980's running 700x21C and 23C tires at over 100 PSI and road them for decades in the upper Midwest where the roads are awful due to freeze/thaw. I now ride 700x32C tires on wide rims at around 60 PSI and for the road conditions where I live, they are a game-changer. I no longer come back from rides feeling like I've been bludgeoned by a hammer under my butt, yet my average speeds haven't suffered at all. Wider tires absolutely "feel" slow, but make sure your data supports your feelings... you could be wrong!
The bicycle industry pushed the trend for wide tires with lower pressure because they were cheaper to manufacture. And introducing it as an "innovation" can give them an opportunity to sell it at a high price.
Double profit 🤣
When I went from 25 to 28 I felt the difference right from the start. I had the same speeds and efforts but a more smooth, comfy ride. I'm running DT Swiss Arc 1400s with Schwalbe One tires at about 70 psi and it feels so smooth yet fast.
same here I went ot 30s and I loved it
Very much depends on the roads you are riding on. On smooth roads 25 is faster but on the roads I ride on-shitty cracked potholed affair 30-32 at 4-4,5 bar is hard to beat.
Tubeless 32c Goodyear eagles on enve foundation 45s (~50psi) since 2020. Never going back to tubes or anything narrower. Don’t race, but like to ride fast AF.
Since 2010 i used 23c tubed with velocity deep-v wheels on my daily street track bike, which are 14mm internal width, and i thought that was optimal. Recently put 28c tires on those velocity wheels and they are still a rough ride compared to tubeless 32c enve wheels. Hands down faster and more comfortable ride since making the switch. Glad to see the tour pros winning on wider tires. Makes sense to me!
Tubeless 28s at 60-65 PSI are the ticket.
Still have some new Michelin Hi-Lite Pros 700x19 in a box,Im runnin 25's on all my roadbikes,its a roadbike & not a mountainbike,fatter tires add more weight,theres too many profilers who look for comfort & wanna look the part when in fact they should of bought a mtn bike,if u cant ride 50 miles on a roadbike hang it up ,I used steel frame with 19's with no problem ,now bikes & wheels are carbon & people have gotten soft
Now get them setup tubeless, it’s just next level in combination with wider tyres.
It’s just another level - more comfort, more fast, no punctures (if you use decent fluid that actually seals at high pressure like Stans race or silca ultimate). It’s the dream 😍
Tubless sketch me out when they blow up tho but that usually doesn't happen, tublar is the safest for blow outs but sucks for every day riding.
30c tires 75psi rear, 70psi front. Tpu tubes. I weigh 190lbs. Non-issue
Let's enjoy what we have and the different characteristics of bikes. I have a Legendary Triban 3, Shimano wheels and run Challenge XP Elite 27mm. Clearly its not the fastest or the best bike. However it's sweet a pleasure to ride. Top gear 50x11, lowest 30x32 so I have a better range than bikes costing vast amounts. Just treated myself to new FD and RD derailleurs total cost £43 /c.$50. I also ride a tubeless 40mm gravel setup. The Old 27mm set up is a bit faster. But clearly less versatile!
Good info as always. I cut my teeth in the 90s and early 2000s so skinny tires was just a way of life. But I for one am super happy to accept the wider and lower pressure overlords.
Yeah today I rode 65 miles (south Louisiana) and did 65 ft of climbing lol. Flat like pancake out here
Yea that is crazy flat lol
Pros are still riding 25s on their TT bikes, which is more relevant to the real world. The only reason 28 and wider works on the road is that their sitting in a peloton of 200 riders and seeing no wind, then finishing up a hill. The aerodynamic penalty that we regular riders deal with is reduced for the pro riders in the key situations of the race.
28c with a 25mm inner rim width is the sweet spot!
Personally I don’t think it’s the wider tier per say rather the tier being supported properly by a wider rim. I ride tier that measures 28c when mounted and provides an almost flush transition to them rim. I run these at 60psi for my weight of 63kg and the rough roads round here. And sure there they don’t float over the bigger hits/cracks but there fine and don’t feel beat up after my 50mile rides. This set up is new to me for the summer. Last month I got my self 309 pr’s, so it’s not all about getting the widest rubber but properly supporting that rubber.
In general though those miche’s are a much much faster tier than those challenges. There up there when installed with latex tubes with the conti str. I generally think that’s what your noticing more than anything. I loved the miche’s when I ran them but they need to sort the tread cap width.
I see little reason to buy hookless rims. Also, I descend at 30-45mph for twenty minutes straight on a typical road ride, so I'm not taking many chances.
But I have been very happy with wider tires. I have 28s on my Roubaix, on the Elite Drive 50Ds. Great combination.
A really well presented discussion. I had no idea your Dad owned your bike shop. Indeed, you have a very long relationship with the older bikes and I go way back because I am a fair amount older.
To me and I too have ridden it all, I say, don't fall in love. All good. I do believe 25 is better than 23 and 19 for bigger guys...I am 6'1" and 175 lbs...have been bigger but I like to be lean for the bike.
So 25-28 is fine. But I am also a mechanical engineer and see the downside. Wider tires are heavier and also have 'poorer' aerodynamics...they punch a bigger hole in the wind which isn't good. It takes more power to spool them up and bike riding is a series of accelerations. But, I don't get a hair shirt on about 28's which we can all ride at lower pressures even with tubes.
I will tell you what I won't buy. No hookless rims for me. I too live in Florida and like to ride with slightly higher tire pressure because of smooth roads here.
What I tell people is...experiment, pick your equipment of choice and ride it but don't be deceived believing any of the newest stuff is going to make you faster. Some of the newer bikes are still ball busting-ly stiff even with wider tires.
Instead of uber wide tires, pick a frame that isn't bone jarring and a geometry that won't kill your back and neck.
Glad you are finding time to ride GC because owning a bike shop is a huge job and you even find time for youtube videos and no idea how you balance it all. Respect.
Most newer wheels are aero optimized for 28c tires. So,...no point in riding 25c. The top would tour pros ride 28c and I promise you they spend time in the wind tunnel.
You should try latex inners iso tpu ones. Less rolling resistance (tho it’s like 0.0001 or so, lol) but the ride gets more plush, using same pressures. Guess your back will be happy with it.
I love the feeling of tpu tubes though they ride so smooth
Mr GC bad news about the L4 L5 I can commiserate. Phat tires are great for disc deterioration. I run big 45 Continental Terra Trails on my gravel bike at 40 PSI. Don't seem that slow to me and they sure feel good soaking up those aberrations. I've run continental Gatorskin 28s on my road bikes for years. It's all about who you're trying to keep up with. Thanks for the great videos #1 in education and entertainment.
19mm tubulars 120 PSI. Yeah it hurts, my ass hurts, but I don't care. Old school to the end . . . my rear end i.e.!
Maximum respect ✊🏼 😅
I now ride a 28mm tire on a 28mm id od rim with a pressure of 80 psi. For me, as I also am a heavier rider, gives excellent stability and low rolling resistance. The lower pressure allows the tire to absorb defects in the road without having to move the entire bike.
I used to ride tubbies exclusively for their superior handling, but the wide tire comes very close to the tubbies.
You might be even faster and more comfortable at 71/73 F/R. Check out the Silca tire pressure online calculator. It always recommends way lower pressures than I am used to but the riding is also always faster and smoother.
I was running latex tubes, then I went tubeless with Vittoria inserts for safety, man was it better. Tubeless is softer, and much nicer if you have back and hand issues, it's worth it. Also the sound is so much louder with latex tubes than tubeless - can I hysteresis between tubes and tires, we will never know 😅.
I just od not lioke changing tubeless and the mess of it, its something about me working on peopls fuck ups with tubeless allday I am kind of scorned by it lol
28c measures 30mm wide.
The big question is, what is the depth? If you only measure the width (aero), you're missing a huge part of the equation, spring/mass system.
Don't ever inflate your tires based on width alone, especially if you have carbon rims!
I've got 2 road bikes, both running 28c. The difference to me comes from switching one to tubeless (I mountain bike, no big deal to do this) and running 60(F)/65(R)...I can go out for a metric century (100km/62 miles) and come back feeling great. On the other bike I need to run 95/105 and after half that distance I hate the damn bike, everything clattering, feel every bump and chip on the road, just awful...next upgrade on the tubeless bike may well be to 30mm. Mind you I seem to recall back in the 80's the standard road tyres(not racing) were 1 1/4"? (so what- maybe go to 32mm??)
Rolling resistance on tubeless setup is also WAY lower due to the elimination of the friction layer between tire and tube.
@@danielakerman8241 Good point, I am usually 2-3km/h faster on the tubeless set up, but then again the bikes aren't the same, and the faster one has DT Swiss P1800 32mm rims whereas the tubed has older rim Aksiums (24mm??)...hard to pinpoint why that difference is there though.
Tire pressure is a big factor.
I have been running 45 psi rear and 40psi front on my gravel bike and it felt very snappy, lowered the pressure to 35 rear and 30 front for the past few days just to see how it feels and the bike felt very sluggish and I rode it twice different days.
I am running the specialized pathfinders 32mm front and 38 rear, true size of the 38 is 40 with air and 32 is 33 with air.
But it might be different if I run it on the gravel, usually our gravel route here is 50/50 tarmac and gravel so rolling resistance is still a big factor on the tarmac.
Decision, decisions.
I'm also running the pathfinder pros 42c tires. Have them at 50psi rear, 45 front. I am 190lbs. If put lower than 50psi at the rear it starts to feel spongy. So far comparing it to my 30c road bike tires they're almost as fast on the flats and have put some PRs on certain segments which I find hilarious considering it's grave tires vs gp5000 30c...
@@bonbonflippers4298 yep I’m 142 lbs, at 45 psi it felt like I am running road bike tires.
I run the Pathfinder S Works, they only come in a 42, on my gravel bike. I run 35 rear, 32 front. I’m 74kg and they feel great on gravel and are still quick on the road! 👍
i use 30 on road bike. better in bad road. when i use 28 my innertube not last long. when hit hole or a rock. i got puncture more often with 28. but since use 30 i get less puncture because an impact.
I think the rolling speed point with the larger tyres is less about gearing (which is almost irrelevant unless you're riding a single-speed), but mainly about the "flywheel" effect you see from adding weight to the outside of the wheel. This is something that's often overlooked in the drive for lighter and lighter wheels (a lighter wheel will accelerate faster but also lose momentum faster). However, in my experience, there's always a trade off, particularly in regards to climbing.
Hookless can be run near 200psi, think was Zipp employee or someone high in bike research said so, just the etrto I think they said told them to say 70 or 73 is max
What is your take on handlebar width? Will you be switching to 36cm?
Pogeca’s Colnago has 31.3 mm wide time trial tires he uses for regular (not time trial) stages.
Who? 😂
@@ProWeAreSo ha! SP Pogacar
I’m riding Conti 28’s with Ride Now TPU tubes around 75 psi…..i live up the road in Stuart……setup is money
Quick experiment, put 28's on your gen 1 venge and go for a ride.
178lbs and run 25mm tires on 19mm internal width rims, I run 80psi front and 85psi rear and TPU inner tubes.
I'd run 28mm tires other than the manufacturers information says 25mm max tire size on both of my bikes, I don't know whether that's driven by the frame or the Shimano rim brake clearance.
yea I am liking the 30 with the tpu tubes and i am running same psi on there
Peak torque did a video about this shit about tires 😉 science proved that it's just a vibe.
700 x 28s on a 25 mm inner width balloons to 31mm on 33.5 outer rim. Flying. 140 lbs 46PSI. tubeless. I averaged over 23mph for the last month. Creo ebike.
I'm using 28C Vittoria Corsa Control at the back and stock MAXXIS 25mm at the front. Should I stick to 28C once I start replacing any of the wheels? Oh and definitely more comfort for 28C at the back
The tan wall hardtail MTB next to the van rysel looks sick, but I'm not sure the saddle setup is UCI legal 😂
Hookless is dangerous and just a way for a company to make a wheel lighter without investing in r and d. Tubless/clincher hooked wheels or even tublars for the win 🙂
I agree, I dont think we need tubulars but the clinchers right now are amazing
25c tire on 25mm internal width? Is that compliant? Safe?
Hi.. good job on the video. I too have been starting to switch over to 28mm tires.
For many years I was riding 23mm on my casd8. Then I upgraded to 25mm tires a few months ago when i picked up some Boyd Podiums. 25mm made a huge improvement in the ride.
I recently purchased a bmc roadmachine and it has Vitoria Rubino 28mm. The feel good over rough patches .. but they feel very heavy.. or maybe it’s the near 2000gr BMC alloy wheels lol. Or the combo of both probably
I want to upgrade the wheels obviously (Craft wheelset) and may stick to 28mm or possibly a 30.. I think tubeless sealant will work better on these size tires due to the much lower pressures. To me 25mm tire pressures are too high for sealant to work quickly.
Question: Where is your bike shop?
yea it makes a big difference for me
Tyres measure a bit wider on hookless rims because you don't loose the mean into the rim.
My best riding combo is a 25mm on a wide hybrid type rim. 80 psi.
Hey great video as usual.
Where can the Van Rysel in your video be purchased? Decathlon's web site doesn't show it.
Thanks much
Interesting 🤔
yes
Just went to 28's and I have found I am running less pressure in them and after a 2-hour ride, I am not as beat up afterwards.
28-32mm tires on a bike means it's not a road bike anymore. You've been in this industry long enough to know what a road bike is. Skinny tires and rim brakes. Put discs and fat tires on a bike that resembles the shape of a road bike and you still have a comfort bike. That's all these bikes are, comfort bikes. Specialized is killing cycling. Maybe not yet in your metro where the rich live but up North I don't see much of Specialized like I used to. I don't even see many high priced bikes out and about because the doctors and dentists that bought them don't ride them. They sit in some garage collecting webs because they are too expensive to maintain and keep on the road. They aren't even worth anything because they have no resale value, at least not to me because I would never buy a used carbon bike. That Van Rysel bike looks like a total piece of crap to me. Don't take any of this personally, I like you, and a lot of your videos but please try to be more truthful about what the industry is doing to bikes and where this is going. Try to be enlighten us about what people bring into your shop for service and service bills. I learned a lesson with SRAM eTap with hydraulic disc brakes after owning it 1 1/2 years then switched to Shimano DA and guess what, the brakes on it are turning out to be shit also. I have to bleed the rear every couple of months because I lose the modulation. I should have never had my frame builder build this bike for disc brakes. Now I'm stuck. And I will probably end up having another frame made for me. I rarely ever had to service the rim brakes on any bike I've ever owned.
can you do a comparison of the craft works versus the roval rapide clx. rear wheel stiffness / confort/ stability in crosswinds thanks
S works turbo cotton 26mm
19 mm internal rim width,check out hambini for the ultimate aero combos.
Can anyone tell me the difference between high/low tire pressure? I run tube type 25c with 100psi all the time😂
I used to ride 100. Now 80. Much more comfortable and just as fast. Less hand numbness too.
I think your feedback about comfort are valid. However, I would avoid talking about what is actually faster unless you want to start doing your own testing or start citing others who have done the testing on wider vs narrower tires (and there is a lot of work that has been done on this).
What do u think about microshift r9 groupset? its better than a modern claris right? Closest bike with 105 is around 500€ more :/
I really do like the moern claris it is not that bad when adjusted right
Go full tubeless bro. Or at least latex. Both options are faster than tpu tubes.
Try the pirelli PZero Race 30s, they are really nice on long rides
What if you need to lean round a corner on those Michelin power tyres? There's no way there is enough grip or protection on the gum wall. They don't look right to me at all
hopefully you running at 73 psi should have the grip in there
You're also a huge guy, lighter guys can ride 60 psi at 28c and float away
On 21mm I’d rim I run 25c contis (wam 28c) at 60psi 28 I’d expect for my weight 50-55psi and that’s tubed I don’t get snake bikes and havnt come close to getting one.
I'm an 88kg Cat 1. I ride 28s and never pump them much over 65psi. Outside of time trialing, I haven't ridden anything smaller than a 28 for the last 12 years. The science has been out for so long. I'm blown away that anyone would take so long to come around to wider tires, at least since HED and Zipp started making wide rims
There is only one aspect that 25mm tires are faster than 28s now is that if you ride faster than 37-38kmh AVR then aerodynamics comes into the picture. Narrower 25mm profile is cutting thru the air better than 28. I stick to 25mm on my TT bike for race setup but for the rest I Switched all my wheels to 23-25mm inner width which is 28mm tires and I’m loving it.
If u need more comfort u could use a 28 rear 25 front witch is a pretty common setup on aero bikes nowadays
@@wouter6053 yes I am well aware of that but 28 doesnt fit into the back of my Tt
Those look a bit bulged beyond the rim? 105% rule?
Specialized tarmac or van rysel ?
The wider tires and lower pressure, the better for your prostate.😊
But isn’t this an old subject? It’s been tested long time ago with numbers and that’s why we came from 18c to 23 to ….now 28 and 32. Unless you are riding on indoor track, Verdict is around 28 to 32 (30) is the fastest. If more on flat and higher speed 28 could be faster because more aero.
I wish I could ride 30's but my TCR won't allow it. Our roads are crap around here.
Love 28mm for long rides but I hate Hookless... it is useless and dangerous .... the only positive point is for the manufacturer. Making this type of rim is much simpler
How good are the rim brakes on you the vias venge?
how are the deda handlebars? they look amazing
Let's go 40mm why not good luck with that 😂
I disagree, 28 mm tires feel slow
N heavy, only advantage maybe is in downhills and rough terrain
I mean thats how I felt for a while to be hoenst, I just switched recently, but now I am loving this feel the tires I chose do not feel bad at all
@@GCPerformance18 yea is more comfortable, more cushion, better for the lower back
So from a PSI perspective, do you use a calculator for 28mm or 30mm, given it stretches out to 30mm?
Probably 30mm, because it's the total volume that counts with regard to casing tension.
What Psi should I be running on the Remco frame ,Princeton wheels
I’m gonna start running 80psi on my wheels. Depends on your weight.
As my weight goes up so does my tire size. On 28’s in denial about needing be on 30’s
Skinnier Tire up Front better Areo. I heard from someone I think Hambini?
Just can't understand what you have against tubeles... 😅
Majority weight should NOT be on your handlebars. Majority on saddle and pedals.
to be hoenst, I have a weak core and out of shape and those bikes I am riding now are a size medium and Iam a large so the saddle to handlebar drop is higher then normal forcing me to have more weigh on my hands
I will never go tubeless, hookless or over 25mm
Due to what was in stock when I blew a tire in SoCal on vacation, I'm now on 32 Corsa Nexts on front and back of my Roval CL II (51/63). I've never been riding faster - not sure if it's the tires or me or whatever.
But I love them. When I need new ones, I'll probably go down to 30 to see what I think.
thicc boi = thicc tire
Hahahaha
Just wanted to make first comment
I appreciate that!!
I would never ride a hookless rim. Never Never Never! I don't even enjoy riding my bike when the pressure is lower than 85psi. I can feel it and it annoys me.
No.. no... no.. wrong.. wrong.. wrong... it's not that lower pressure is just "more comfortable".. it's that it ACTUALLY FASTER!!
Essentially for years we have only been considering half.. depending on speed & roughness of the road LESS than half the resistance.. i.e. were ONLY considering the energy lost to flexing the tire.. BUT the higher the pressure, the more vibrations makes it through the tire.. through the bike and into the rider. Where do you figure the energy come from to vibrate your body? (A: from your forward moment and ultimately from your legs)?? How much of those vibration of that big floppy meat bag (rider) sitting on top of that bike make it back into the road (A: almost none!) And it's not only bumps and cracks.. road texture on "smooth" roads that produces road buzz also vibrates your body and causes losses...
It's totally normal that you would perceive thinner, harder tires as being faster. Tests of human perception confirm that when being vibrated the sh!t out of, humans will perceive they are going faster.. so you're normal.. but wrong.. your perception is not reality! when you're setting tire pressure you should be aiming for what feels smooth not what feels fast.. eventually you will just get used to it and you'll understand you're going fast 🤷🏾♂
wide tyres good
28c tires Tubless are faster, you got to switch over from tube
Just from a mechanic standpoint. And always changing tubeless flats at the store I prefer a tpu tube and it’s simple.
@@GCPerformance18 i use continental TLR or Pirelli TLR nvr have issues w/flates, once i got a flat i plugged it and was on my way, i ride about 140 miles a week,
Gonna beat the drum here for hookless. TRY IT TUBELESS. The problems you’ve brought up in other videos are really not an inherent problem of hookless rims - it’s a problem with tire tolerance. As long as the bead seat diameter is correct and consistent, and the tire is built so it won’t flex excessively, it’s perfectly safe! Those Zipp wheels look 🔥🔥
Dude you need to move with the times!
Yeah, Jan from Rene Herse, etc. would likely ask you why you are mistaking tenure with knowledge…
You simply cannot look at the PROs and copy what they do, with the logic that "If the pros do it, they must know what's beat!"
The pro teams had us riding 19mm tires @ 110psi for DECADES. And everyone 'knew' that was fastest. 🤨
Then we heard that wider is better. It seems like anything less than 28mm is scoffed at these days.
Maybe we should all ride 2.1" MTB tires on the road!?😂
All you should do is experiment with width and pressure. If you're a numbers geek, do some testing with power/speed to make it fun!
Ride on!
I did a test on this, I used tpu tubes and also 120 psi, with 25c. against a 28c tire on tubeless with 73psi.... the tpu was almost 1mph faster over 5 miles
Skinny for climbing...down hill anything goes