Egwene al'Vere - Character Examination (Spoiler Warning)
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- My SPOILER FILLED character examination of Egwene al'Vere. One of the most polarizing figures within The Wheel of Time. She one of the most powerful magic users in the entire fantasy genre, and seeing her grow within the wheel of time is fascinating. But why is she so polarizing?
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Thought and Opinions on Egwene??
While she can come off as annoying, I feel like she's executed well enough, mary-sue-esque moments aside.
Love her! She’s very real in so many ways. Even the aggravating parts. If anything the aggravating parts are what make her real. I found her relatable and generally logical. Of course the whole Gawyn thing is not so great but again, relatable!! Everyone of my friends has dated (or married) a bone head at some point- some lovable-some not.
She’s one of my top 5 in WoT.
*Spoiler Alert*
I think Egwene was never supposed to be a valid candidate for amyrlin seat. She was just strong enough and experienced enough to properly hold the title but they thought she was stupid and obedient. The blue Ajah just experienced a coup/schism because of the secret dealings Siuan had done. They had already experienced what an independent and capable ruler could do to their Ajah, they wanted a much less powerful representative. Similar to how elections work here in America, switching between Republican and Democrat, they wanted the opposite. Also, I think RJ wanted this to happen as it did. She did not TRULY deserve the title until later when the Seanchan attacked the white tower. It wasn't until after all of her learning from Siuan, the struggles experienced in the white tower, and the growth of understanding what it meant to be Amrylin that she was worthy of sitting upon the seat. In addition, it must be kept in mind that she was a war Amrylin. Similar to how presidents are chosen during a time of war, comparing her to peace Amrylin's is a bit unfair.
Another point would be how unknown she was. The blue Ajah were aware that peace was also possible. Whoever became Amrylin would most likely not receive a...good end in that peace agreement, especially if Elaida remained in charge. Why sacrifice someone noteworthy or useful? Lets grab that powerful girl out in the wastelands pretending to be a savage. We will control her and if peace can be arranged, she will take the fall.
The rebels made Egwene the Amyrlin because she was a convenient pawn and sacrificial lamb. The rebel camp had to raise an Amyrlin, otherwise they're just a bunch of rabble rousers. But nobody in their right mind would want the job. They knew they were in open rebellion against the White Tower. They also knew that they would one day rejoin their sisters in Tar Valon. Romanda and Lelaine knew that whoever was Amyrlin would be deposed and stilled once the Tower was reunified, so neither of them wanted the job for herself, and neither did any Aes Sedai of any standing or strength in the Power. So the rebel sisters knew they needed to find a patsy to take the job so that Romanda and Lelaine could work behind the scenes to reestablish ties to the White Tower as the power behind the throne, so to speak. Egwene fit the bill in a lot of ways, to the minds of people who didn’t know her well. Her connection to the Dragon Reborn gave them a convenient pretext to raise her, as did her strength in the Power and her Dreaming Talent. But she was also just a young girl they didn’t care about. They also assumed she would be easy to control, and were surprised that she wasn’t.
And I am surprised that you find the Rand/Egwene conflict is surprising. Egwene is no longer Egwene al’Vere, innkeeper’s daughter from Emond’s Field, and Rand is no longer Rand al’Thor, sheepherder’s son from the Westwood. They are the Amyrlin Seat and the Dragon Reborn. They have both endured circumstances that have changed them utterly. And each of them recognizes those changes in the other, and are on their guard as a result. Rand literally waltzes into Tar Valon, puts all the other Aes Sedai in a ta’veren coma, and says “Hey Eggs, I wanna break the D.O.’s seals, yo” and expects her to just say “sure, Rand!” Like that’s not the CRAZIEST idea anyone has ever had in the history of forever. Egwene rightfully thinks he’s either lost his mind or been turned by the Dark One. She can’t take something like that on faith, and Rand should never have expected her to.
And everyone rags on Egwene for not trusting Rand, but how often do we hear criticism of Rand for not trusting Egwene? Until you said “I also put that on Rand”, I have NEVER heard him taken to task for it. That asymmetry…bothers me.
I find her chapters in the books to be some of the slowest chapters but man does she have a lot of awesome moments. I reread the part where she stands up to Elaida in her chambers and it is one of my favorite single moments from all of the books.
I thought the final confrontation with Rand was perfect. You know why? Because Egwene was always a terrible person towards Rand.
I love Egwene, but i agree with you on this point.
She's not just awful to Rand. She's awful To everyone. she contently lies to get her way, hurts her friends just to prove prove points, and she thinks she knows better than everyone. There are tons of time when tragedy could have been avoided if she just communicated with Rand instead of holding back information from him
I like Egwene quite a lot, with moments of love. From the start she is established as being ambitious, willful, attentive, clever, manipulative, but ultimately good-natured. Without every one of these aspects driving Egwene, the Last Battle would have likely been lost before it began.
Egwene is only at her best when under adversity. Her time fighting to be more than a puppet for the rebels and the chapters spent as essentially a prisoner in the White Tower are where we root for her the most. As soon as that conflict is over and she is unquestionably the Amyrlin Seat, she instantly inflames petty quibbles and dictatorially runs everyone around her. I found this so jarring that in my first read through I couldn’t even feel very upset over her death as she would’ve been an awful ruler during peacetime.
I completely agree
I think the rebels ended up choosing Egwene because of Siuan's manipulation. I agree that they probably wouldn't have picked her, for all the reasons you cited. Siuan knew all that, and that's why Siuan picked her to be raised, and then manipulated the Hall into calling Egwene back.
@@namordecai I would be happy to read your comment but I can't find it :( could you try tagging me?
Don't forget Rand, he of the "GREATEST TA'VEREN SINCE EVER" category. He probably needed her to be Amyrlin, so the Pattern made her Amyrlin.
And don't forget that neither Romanda nor Lilaine had enough votes in the hall to be raised. They chose Egwene to keep the stole and staff away from each other. They'de have sooner raised a rock than one another.
Yeah it bothers me that Daniel didn't understand this, as analytical as he is. It's right there on the pages.
@@seanlamont8501 Yeah, this is how you get a left-field candidate elected, but I think the big complaint is that why they would except _Egwene_ as that that candidate. I think I would have accepted it better if Siuan was treated a bit better by the Aes Sedai, maybe with the memory of her as a competent leader, but at this point, they kinda treated her like garbage. She was only hanging in there by her control over the spy network, and her political capital seemed to be almost zero.
I love that you mentioned Egwenes weird personal relationship issues.
I was really frustrated with that scene between Egwene as Amyrlin and Rand. But that is characteristic of every time they talked to each other back to the second chapter of the first book.
Egwene always treats Rand in a condescending manner. That tendency combined with the positions of power they both had and Rands character arc made them butting heads the natural endpoint of that meeting.
Also, her connection to Rand was one reason the Aes Sedai wanted her in their power. The other reason was actually her lack of connections. They needed someone with no ties to either subfaction fighting for control of the house.
They knew she was pretty strong and worthy of being Aes Sedai and so wouldn't embarrass them if raised but they thought she was weak enough to be controlled thanks to their prejudice against the "Aiel savages".
Egwene's arc within the tower after being captured was one of my favorites. She broke the tower, while essentially a prisoner of war, by simply refusing to yield.
It was one of the most pathetic things i've ever read, just plot conviences and plotarmor that were beyond pathetic:
1- ALL Aes Sedai are idiots, specially the ones she has to "face" in order to reign.
2- She is named Amyrlin by chance because the 2 idiot seaters believed her weak... plot convenience, she didn't deserve shit and specially taking in account that she is not known by those Aes Sedai putting one you don't know anything about to rule above you is literally ridicoulous.
3- She is trapped by one of the worst plans i've ever read, "i got a huge army and i'm the leader, let's sneak into enemy territory ALONE, what bad could happen?" pathetic.
4- She was the head of the rebels, yet inside the tower the idiot Aes Sedai leave her completely FREE to meet anyone she wanted and roam all the tower... WHAT THE F.
5- She had to endure "severe" punishments... you kidding me??? she was healed every time, she could walk, work, and even had time to meet people... 0 threat to her life, 0 physical damage suffered, 0 reasons to be afraid of the punsihment because she was to get healed afterward... OOOOOHHH POOR EGWENE!!!
6- Elaida is literally the most retarded villain i've ever read.
7- Egwene even fails and gets jailed (as she should have been since minute 1) without being able to meet anyone.
8- YET not for long, she is allowed to meet Verin and she grants her a GUIDE to all her possible enemies inside and outside of the tower, cheat code, plot convenience, yes, whatever you want to name it, she didn't even had to investigate or think, there she has all the info she needed to get rid of most of the black ajah... for free.
9- The Seanchan attack while she is able to roam the tower, why not? oh, and they also eliminate the only competition she had for uniting the tower... because yes, all the seaters are a bunch of idiots that can't do better.
10- While she was playing with all the idiot Aes Sedai, the Dark One could have conquered the whole world because she was so power-hungry that she didn't care one bit about solving anything that was happening around the world... yet dares to disrespect the F DRAGON REBORN again and again, girl, WTF HAVE YOU OR ANY OF YOUR IDIOT FOLLOWERS DONE FOR THE WORLD???
11-And finally it's impossible to forget how in each and every step along the way she has had everyone praising her ALL THE F TIME, literally. She does nothing for 14 books yet she is praised again and again, Rand saves half of the world, kills half the forsaken, holds the northern border because the idiot borderlanders leave their posts just to ask him some questions and unite many of the nations to fight the dark one... all he gets is insults, pain and disrespect by this idiot power-hungry child who thinks she is some hero when if it were for her the world would have been doomed 12-13 books ago.
Personally, my favorite Egwene scene is when she is attacked by Elaida. She overcomes the pain and pretty much says that Elaida will never be the true Amyrlin. It destroys Elaida and marks the shift of power to Egwene. I honestly got chills while reading it. I also think that her death was so sad because she had been so successful, but I understand that it was honorable and a natural plot progression.
Her calling out of Elaida was freaking epic!!!!! I've reread that part so many times, it was just perfect!!!
@@molliethomas2585 i think her resisting Rands tavern was her most badass.
Now I'm really never going to read those last three books!!
@@dalemurray4083 lol reading her death is like watching Logan or drinking a last shot of that aged scotch youve had awhile. Yea it hurts. But the pain is worth it all.
I think Daniel overlooked how much respect she had gained in the actual tower itself; between the slow methodical destruction of Elaida's illegal dictatorship, to the seanchan debacle, the wise ones respect and training, and even her respectful talks with sitters and elders while imprisoned. She had proven to many aes sedai that while she was the one of the most powerful in channeling the power, she was also one of the hardest of them in terms of wistanding torture and battle, only really being topped by legends like cadsuane. that comparison being speculative and made more impressive given the age and experience gap. For her raise to full amyrlin it's reasonable to believe they(the re-united tower) knew she was needed for the last battle.
Not to mention the levels of ta'veren fuckerey the dragon reborn has over the pattern: he needed her in that seat for the last battle, and so it shall be.
Some times I love her, sometimes I hate her. Depends which story arc we are going through.
Couldn't agree more.
I've only read the last few books once, right when 14 came out. But up until the Sanderson books I had been neutral on her. In the Sanderson books though I came to really enjoy her. When she died, I was at work on a Saturday listening to it while doing CAD, I literally gasped out loud and and was so shocked I had to stop listening for a while and my coworker thought I was nuts. Will never forget that moment. Only other time I can remember that happening to me was the red wedding. Honestly her death really upset me, hers being the only main character death. I still get upset to this day and have not picked up the series again since then (I did finish it at the time of course). Only recently, years later, have I felt like I would want to revisit, and it's partly due to your channel and hearing your thoughts that have allowed me to remember the breath, depth, and intricacies of the series and why I loved it. Will try to reread next year!
I felt the same when i got to her death. I was at home at 3am. I remember stopping in shock, and having to reread to last couple pages out loud. I've never been so grief struck by the death of a person that has existed only in printed words, and in the minds of us readers.
I don't know why, but it irked me that she was the only one from the core, 1st book cast, to die.
Yeah no, her death came roughly 13 books too late.
@@Keihryon True, that entitled B deserved far worse
My biggest problem with Egwene was how arrogant she became. After becoming the Amyrlin Seat & besieging the White Tower she would not even listen to anyone else's opinion it seems. Plus the comments to her self regarding her plans for Aiel, 'just wait Amys'. This is part of fight with rand too tho she never let him speak fully anyway! She brushed aside valid facts Gawyne tried to make about the assassins as well because she KNEW it was the forsaken and only them killing in the WT. These are the main things that bother me in her character. Tho her character does have many good points, inner strength is the best.
lol she was that way from the start
My issue with her and pretty much the rest of the female characters is the constant use of the power to humiliate people.
Seriously, every time they decide to lift somebody in the air or freeze them because they're annoyed, it makes Egwene and pretty much every other major female character at some point feel like a petulant child who has to resort to force to win an argument.
You seem to be missing the point that most of the societies within Randland are pretty female centric, and for good reason. Women can channel the One Power and not go mad. The White Tower is and has been the most powerful political influence for hundreds of years, with some women living longer than 5 or more generations. They have knowledge, money, political and military power, and pretty much everyone knows it.
Is it petty? Of course it is. But no more petty than when a strong male bullies a weaker, or when one person is able to out-shout another. They use the tools at their disposal to help get their way, the same as anyone else does, only their tools are magic that only they have access to. It makes more sense when you realize that these women are often just as petty, weak of heart and mind, and spiteful as regular people.
which makes the time when cadsuane tries that with tam all the better. he straight up doesn't care that hes being hoisted in the air with magic, hes just like "I already knew you were a bully, and I asked you a question."
@@tohrazul It IS different, It's not analogous to a strong male using superior strength to bully, it's analogous to someone using a GUN to threaten and intimidate. In this case, the gun isn't loaded, but only the Aes Sedai knows that (many people don't trust the Three Oaths because of Aes Sedai manipulation).
Remember when she pushed Rand to the ground, sat on him and then threatened him with the Power when she could barely even wield it herself and then had the gall to complain how he was being violent when he got up anyway?
@@Dave-sk9mn we were actually making the same point. My point was that the One Power is inherently a weapon, and only the AS know the limits and take advantage of that to the maximum degree. They're tiny tyrants.
IMO, Egwene is both a good character and a bad character. She is good in that she is well written and I like reading her chapters. She is bad in that she is kind of a shitty person. (Not in an evil way, just in an immature selfish kind of way. She's the anti-Nynaeve to me, where they both grow in power and ability, but Nynaeve grows as a person in a way that Egwene just doesn't.) I think a lot of the disagreement regarding her comes down to people talking about fundamentally different things.
You're right in a sense. Egwene did not earn the position of Amyrlin. She was put there as a puppet by the Black Ajah influenced Salidar 6. They thought she would be easily influenced. After all, she's so young, what could she know? But the BA didn't know what she had been through with the Seanchan. They didn't know about her wise one training. And they probably couldn't have anticipated her having Suian to help her with the political wrangling of the rebel Aes Sedai.
I think Egwene really earned the Amyrlin Seat after she got captured by the White Tower. They unwittingly put her in the best position possible to undermine Elaida and reunite the tower. She had women who were decades(or centuries) older than her asking her for advice. They tried to break her, but they just made her stronger. And she gained the loyalty of the novices and accepted. Or enough of them, at least.
She's a great character, in spite of perhaps being a bit annoying at times.
The Black Ajah didn't know what she'd been through with the Seanchan? The Blacks are the ones who put her in Seanchan hands. The captivity was a direct result of a BA plot to get rid of her and Nynaeve. If *anyone* in the Tower knew what she'd been through, it was the Black Ajah.
@@thepiratemongoose8965 ok, but that's not the point he's making.
The first time I read the series I was closer to Egwene's age so I LOVED her character, and I understood the gushy puppy love her and Gawyn had. Infact I think that is about the only thing that DID seem natural for her age and situation. The second time I read it through I just liked her, I really respected the horrible experiences she went through and her inner strength and determination to survive and become powerful so as to never be the victim again. I was also highly impressed with her tactical maneuvering through the ranks when she was captured by Elaida and refused to be broken. Now I am on my fourth read through and while I still feel all of that, I am older now with children of my own and I am seeing the Bratiness, and disrespectful tendencies to those she calls her "friends". The worst by far being how she treated Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod and it wasn't out of pure concern for Nynaeve's safety but to scare and humiliate her into a spot under her thumb so that she wouldn't speak out against Egwene to the Wise Ones. That's something a bullying narcassitic tyrant would do. So I respect her as a political figure and thought her death was epic, I dislike her as a "person".
I totally think the same thing. She was just a bully and never gets any kind of push back. Not only that but she is lying to the wise ones the entire time about how much she is going into telairanrhiod. I can't say that I hate her but there are things about her character that just rub me the wrong way.
I really like the relationship/contrast between Egwene and Lan. Egwene starts as the daughter of a country innkeeper and thirsts for knowledge, power, and adventure. She's constantly looking to grow and learn and while I doubt she grew up wanting to fight the shadow or be the Amyrlin seat she certainly knew she wanted to be important, powerful, and respected. Lan on the other hand was born a prince destined to fight the shadow. He was always going to be seen as strong, respected, and inspiring but he didn't want any of that. He did his best to stay in the background, tagging along with someone else lending his power to her and her journey. I don't want to say he wanted to die but he certainly had accepted it as an inevitability and was okay throwing away his life fighting the shadow. Egwene saw herself as living forever, leading channelers into a bright new future of unity and cooperation, cementing herself as one of the most powerful and respected leaders in history. This makes their respective endings so much more delightful, Egwene ends up sacrificing herself to defeat the shadow and Lan survives his suicide mission and is left pushed into a leadership position he never really wanted. Death is light as a feather, duty as heavy as a mountain
My first read-through, Egwene was one of my favorite characters, but in my subsequent read-throughs, I started to really hate her.
She’s just a terrible person, in my opinion. She’s horrible to her friends. She takes every chance she can to berate Rand, she terrified Nynaeve in a dream, she always thinks the worst of them (especially Rand).
She only seems to care about getting more power and prestige for herself. I don’t believe she started off level headed. For example she was playing around with the OP, and Perrin is the one who cautioned her. Later on she found out she could have accidentally burned herself out.
I believe that the Salidar Aes Sedai should have really chosen Nynaeve if they wanted someone who would actually be effective. Clearly, they specifically wanted an Accepted, who could take the fall, but was still protected by their true rank as far as White Tower politics go. But Nynaeve was the most powerful, had a great relationship with Rand, and had leadership experience. She healed freaking stilling!
Elayne would have been a good second choice; she was extremely well educated, second only to Nynaeve in power, and was born and bred to rule. I just think they wanted someone with a connection to Rand, and Elayne’s connection was largely unknown. Because of Nynaeve’s block I think they went with Egwene.
However, Egwene never allied herself with Rand like she said she would. She immediately thought the worst of him. The Wise Ones always said they don’t want Aes Sedai interference, yet Egwene immediately set about trying to get all female channeling groups involved with the WT, of which she was the Amrylin Seat.
I think she showed her true nature when she acted like a petulant child when she dropped Elaida’s soup, and it was even more immature when she said Elaida made her do it 🙄
And I really wondered at the sense of tying Perrin up in ropes in TAR in the middle of a dangerous battle with Black Ajah and Chosen running around! Like did she want him to die?
I think Egwene did have to die though, because I don’t think she would have been an effective Amrilyn for rebuilding. She really had no experience and I feel like she just baffled Aes Sedai who were already struck dumb at the prospect of a male channeling institution, a’dam prisons, and the LB. But as soon as they acclimated to change, I think they would have seen through her.
Ugh. I just think she’s a trash individual who has done some cool things in life lol.
Risee I don’t think I disliked her as much as you do but I absolutely agree with everything you have to say
She didn’t just terrify Nynaeve. That was borderline sexual assault. And the worst part of it all is that she laughed about it afterwards, happy her assault she did to her friend worked so she wouldn’t possibly get into trouble with the WO. That single event defined her for me.
Rand did many horrible things but always his intention was for the good of the people he cared about and the good of the world in general, no matter how misguided or outright wrong his justifications are. Everything Egwene ever did was for herself. She made thugs appear in TAR to manhandle her friend for selfish reasons.
I was so desperate to see her grow as a person like everyone else has but she never did. She left Emond’s Field a bossy brat and was still that when she died only she also became an even bigger immoral hypocrite as well. Nynaeve was insufferable at the beginning but turned herself around at the end. Truly, she and Gawyn deserved each other.
Poo0fi Amen to all of that! I could never get behind the things she chose to do no matter hard I tried. I saw her as a brat from day one!
I wish I knew just how many times that prissy child called Rand a wool headed idiot. In the first quarter of the series she fights the dregs of the forsaken like twice, and thinks she can berate Rand about how to fight the dark ones. Rand nearly dies multiple times facing a near demi-god, and is steadily being driven mad, but she still thinks she can berate him for foolishness? Her naive arrogance is cemented in the first book and sticks with her until her deserved, but overdue death. My only praise for this bratty child, is that she follows her hubris to her death like a proper greek hero.
I'm currently on book 6 of my first read through, and I can't stand her.
At this point in the story her only contribution to the story and Randy's quest is her participation in the battle for Cairhien, but she constantly puts everyone (mostly Rand) down and talks to people like she knows best, when in reality she has no idea what's happening around her.
Also I can't remember a single time she thanks someone for helping her.
It actually isn't out of character for her in her final interaction with Rand. It's very much IN character. Egwene is the ONLY person we ever see from the Two Rivers not only side with "outsiders" over her fellow Two Rivers citizens, but do so consistently. She constantly treated Rand like dirt, always assumed the worst from him, constantly tried to intrude on his privacy by attempting to spy on his dreams despite the Wise Ones telling her not to do such things and Rand obviously not wanting her to by shielding his dreams, and never acknowledged any of his accomplishments. She is the literal embodiment of narcissism.
Absolutely agree with you on this
and the narrative vindicates her after brandon took over.
@@originalsinquirls1205 that's like twelve books too late though at that point I really could care less about her and her struggles. Egwene achievement seems very contrived and unearned to me.
I don't get the part about invading Rand's dreams.
Moiraine invaded his privacy far more by constantly spying on his conversations since book 1 all the way through to book 5.
Also in book 4, Wiseones were invading and spying on Rand's dreams.
As for Egwene, the way i remember it, she went to his dreams once in book 3 and tried talking to him, but he chased her away. She tried going into his dreams again in book 5 but she banged her head against his wards. I don't think she tried again.
And so, Egwene is the worst in that regard ?
@@LordLazaruss Nah dude, it's written that she basically sought him out every night to see if there was a time he failed to shield his dreams (it's not directly spelled out that way, but it's implied). Also, bad behavior by others doesn't excuse bad behavior or make it somehow not as bad as it really is...
I always seem to have unpopular opinions about some of my favorite things, but she is my favorite character of the series, looking back. A favorite scene of mine, prior to her demise, was during the Seanchan attack on the White Tower, keeping the novices and accepted calm and safe, while blasting the Seanchan. And yes, her ending is well written and moving, and is probably why she is my favorite. I kind of agree that her love interest was a pointless distraction, but to be fair, in light of being ripped out of her pastoral homeland wrapped up in an incredibly perilous tale, and tortured by the Seanchan and some Aes Sedai, it gives me some comfort that her time wasn't entirely untouched by the light of love.
I just finished reading Wheel of Time. I came out considering Egwene one of my favorite characters. Unfortunately, her death got spoiled for me a couple books early, but it still hit me hard when it finally happened. The only thing that really frustrated me about her was how she acted in her personal relationships. I just always felt like she didn't really care about her "friends," and she treated them very poorly.
i agree, but that's the sacrifice of leadership. You have to take care of the group you are leading first, you must be culpable for your choices, you must be safe from scrutiny by your peers. That comes before emotional attachments.
@@LordLazaruss BS, Egwene is nothing but a power-hungry narcisist and bully, and the only thing she cares about is her position and the blind obedience of everyone around her.
One of the most despicable characters i've ever read, it it werwe for her the Dark One would have conquered everything by book 3-4, while she was playing the magic girl act with all the idiots inside of the WT.
She was my favourite character right until the Seanchan captured her. After that it was like a slow descend into hating her. Especially when she took the authority from Nynaeve in the world of dreams and how she did that. I kind of respected her in the end because of her sacrifice etc.
Egwenes death was the only death that actually brought me to tears. I def felt for others characters especially Suan & Garreth but just what Egwene accomplished and how she went out at such a young age made me really feel for her and those closest to her.
Most frustrating character in the series! Seriously, you become Amarylin Seat. HELP RAND!!!!! No, all of a sudden she wants to control the world and everything in it including Rand. He is the Dragon and he is going to die for the world. At least help. RAGE LoL
I’d say she’s the most horrible person who was not of the shadow. I still find Faile to be the most irritating even when she’s not as bad of a person as Egwene is. I literally hated reading chapters when Faile was in it which made that loooong Shaido saga unbearable to me.
@@Poo0fi I would agree with you but you don't have to deal with her as much as Egwene, Egwene is probably only second to Rand in amount of chapters she gets.
She was busy fixing the split in the Tower. Without her, Rand would have no Aes Sedai to help him at all.
She was a Damane for like two or three weeks.... It's clearly stated that the girls were in the tower for months before Liandrin took them to Falme.
It was 4 months thats how long she was a damane
When a character examination takes 6 minutes to deal with the 'complaints' about the character...that tells you pretty much everything you need to know. If nothing else dream invasion is morally bankrupt, im sorry but non-consent during private moments in which most people cant even defend themselves because they dont know how or dont have the power to is ethically sickening, the idea of someone doing this to me really is anger-inducing. A right to privacy is a basic human right but she BARELY considers the moral implications only what happens if she gets caught...a terrible human being, absolute trash.
Not to mention, it makes Egwene an absolute hypocrite b/c of her views on the Seanchan. She hates them for their a'dam, yet she doesn't mind forcing will upon others weaker than she is. Totally sickening. She is not a good person, more like a villain that the pattern used.
I think one reason you didnt mention, for her being chosen as amirlyn by the rebels is her connection to Rand. Since they look for to be on his good side instead of what the reds in the white tower do. I also agree about being so back and forth about disliking and liking her. That's a wild ride. But out of all the deaths, I think hers probably made the biggest impression on me, and the weeks following me finishing the last book for the first time, she was on my mind plenty of times. And yeah, the entire part of her being captive in the tower was by far the best Egwene episodes! That's when she really became this kickass person to me, and not just an annoying smartass.
I agree, The biggest plot hole in the last 3-4 books is Rand not talking to Egwene as a fellow Two Rivers native. My favorite scene with her is the defense of the White Tower.
I disliked Gawyn and didn't feel much about his death, but Egwene's death... one of the best scenes in my opinion. "She went out like a stone cold gangster," lol.
I disliked her till book 8/9 and was sure that she will turn to dark one becoming an enemy that rand would be unable to face, until she showed some resolve when she was captured by Elaida.
As i see it she lusted for power from the very beginning. She became apprentice to Nynaeve because she saw how everyone in village respects Nynaeve, and was even ready to leave her love for that.
Then she saw how powerful Moraine is and how unhelpfull Nynaeve was in saving rands father, so she stuck to Moraine now abandoning her home, family and village.
Same thing happen later, clings to Wise one's as they are powerful in dream world. You will see the same pattern from her throughout the books.
I was so sure that dark one will offer her more power for joining him and that she will. Blessedly I was wrong and I love the ending she got.
I hate Egwene. At first I really tought that she was going to be my favourite, but with every book I disliked her more and with every re-read it's getting worse. Don't get me wrong, I wished her best...but I was bored to death by her. Her chapters were very boring.
I think I lost almost all respect I had for aes sedai, during the time they captured Rand and after it how the rest thought of it. especially Egwene.
As for the conflict between Rand and Egwene. Egwene had turned her back to him way back, not completly, but enough that Rand had no reason to trust her. Like how his dreams were watched by the wise ones, how Moiraine and Egwene listened to Rands talks.... She thought those violations to his privacy we justified and to me they never were. Rand had every reason to be paranoid. Egwene chose White tower the moment she realised she had the spark.
I think large reason for my dislike toward Egwene comes from her dreamer ability. To go to other peoples dreams and go through those without consent... To me that is like rape.It is not ethical or moraly just. She knew damn well that Rand didn't want people in his dreams . But she did it anyway. Cause if she does something no matter how awful, it must be right, because she's Egwene.
I felt that Elaine chapters were more boring but that's probably because I'm reading crossroads of twilight right now.
I don't think Egwene was a part of Moiraine's spying on Rand. As we saw in book 5, she knew about it, but i don't think Moiraine shared what she spied with her. (chapter "What can be learned in dreams")
I finished AMOL today ... her death is by far the most impactful and actually made me rethink my opinions on her; she's not my favorite Aes Sedai (that'd be either Nynaeve or Moiraine) but she's also not a character I love to hate. I agree with her romance being lacking at first but I think Gawyn's only redeeming factor was his devotion to Egwene once he realizes all he wants to be is her warder in ToM. In a sense Gawyn's death and the constant reminder of the toll of a warder's death on an Aes Sedai kind of prepared me for her death.
Another big Egwene arc for me was her imprisonment by Elaida. It really showed why she should be Amyrlin instead of Elaida.
you know about a year ago I almost decided to do just this,... what you are doing now on YT but I was a full time streamer at the time but now that Im not.... you and Nae'Blis are taking care of it... Love your content keep it up
I find it odd that you never brought of Egwene's time in the tower as the rebel Amyrlin, that was one of my favorite arcs for her character, where she truly managed to earn that seat with every bit of her training and development, in great deal, because of her Wise One training. Not to mention, her 2nd dinner with Elaida may be my favorite scene. I don't know why, it just hit SO HARD, many of the things in AMOL were proper pay off, but damn, that confrontation. She's honestly, overall, my favorite character, and I don't mind being in the minority on that.
Egwene is the Boromir of the original 7 main characters of The Wheel of Time as she is the only member of the group who depart from The Two Rivers to die while the rest of the group all survive at the end same as how Boromir was the only member of The Fellowship of The Ring to unfortunately fall in battle in The Lord of The Rings while the rest of The Fellowship all survived to see the end of their epic journey.
Great video. I just finished a reread of Warbreaker, I think an examination of Vivenna would be engaging. I find her growth and her flaws to be a fun thing to consider in the second reading.
I imagine the Black Ajah may have played a role in Egwene being raised Amyrlin of the rebels. Siuan may have planted the idea and pushed for it, but the Black Ajah would have likely seen it as perfect for their goals and pushed for it as well. She may not have earned the appointment, but she most definitely earns keeping it and being raised in the Tower. She makes several very important connections during her time under Elaida, and not only proves her capability to endure and fight politically but proves her prowess in battle as well. Her time in the Tower under Elaida may be one of my favorite parts of the entire series.
Her entire relationship with Gawyn is frustratingly immature. But, to be fair, romance is just about the only thing she lacks experience in.
If I remember correctly, her opposition to Rand at the end is only about his intent to break the seals. This is actually a fairly reasonable stance without knowing all the details, which even Rand doesn't know yet. The important detail of when to break them doesn't come until Moiraine's appearance at the gathering at Merrilor. Her opposition is also a callback to the opposition Lews Therin faced when he announced his intent to seal the DO's prison. I would also say that we aren't likely to react positively to this plot line when rereading since we already know that the seals do in fact need broken.
Agreed.
i was reading "a memory of light" at work when egwene died. i, literally, howled out, "NOOOO" and started crying. egwene was my 2nd favorite character behind Matt.
Lol I was so similar. I finished the series just a couple days ago. Finished the series at work and was just hollow inside after Egwene died.
Me too dude. Had to pause the audiobook to shed some tears lol
Just happened to me yesterday. I finished the books...and now I'm empty and sad, but at the same time satisfied.
Egwene and Perryn were my favourite characters.
The only argument I have that I feel you misses was that the rebels chose Egwayne because she was outside of the white tower at the time of its division so she would be less likely to be biased. Add that in with her not being a full sister made her appear like she would be easy to control. Most of the sisters didnt even know about her captivity. She appeared to be the best choice. Low and behold, their choice backfired.
Egwene was not a prisoner of the Seanchan during the flicker-flicker-flicker incident. She was captured AFTER that happened. Rand & Verin and friends activated the portal stone in the spring, but when they arrive on Tomon Head, it is in the fall, the flickers having taken them across several months. It is in a chapter AFTER their arrival, that Liandrin comes to Egwene's room. And before she comes in, Egwene is thinking that for a while now, her dreams of Rand had been strange, like he was not really there - because he was not, he was trapped in that portal-stone zone, between worlds and timelines. Rand & company go to the portal stone not long after Egwene arrives at the Tower and meets Elayne & Min, and the day after Thom's girlfriend is murdered by the king's henchman. The day the girls are told to leave the Tower with Liandrin, Elayne comes in to say that the official word on the street is that the king has died, making the civil war in Cairhien a war of succession. When the boys left Cairhien via portal stone, the war had not yet broken out, nor was Galldrian generally known to be dead. At most, there were riots in the capital city. It would have taken considerable time for the correct information to make its way out of Caihrien and become public knowledge abroad.
Egwene was made Amyrlin because of a whole plot of politics etc. Suian also doing things in the background to lay the groundwork. But think about it from the Aes Sedai point of view. They are used to Accepted treating them as if they are queens. Accepted fear and are in awe of them. Also when they are raised to the shawl the hierarchy is very power strength oriented. What they know of Egwene is she has gone through some stuff so she isn’t a coward. She’s one of the strongest channellers they have seen. She is still very young and therefore to them, can be moulded and swayed depending on what they want. She also has the gift of being a dreamer which is exciting as this had all but died out even if they don’t think it’s worth much. Finally her relationship to the Dragon.
So these are all things that make her a fitting candidate when you have warring factions that are unwilling to bend when voting for a new leader. Nynaeve being stronger in the power would have been a possible candidate but what they know of her is 1) she has a block 2) she has a temper and is stubborn 3) she is older and less likely to be manipulated.
I think it was a reasonable decision to make. Even considering that many thought they were making a statement more than anything and would probably return to the tower, no full sister wanted to risk what the punishment would be for that. I thought RJ wrote enough about the manipulation of the AES Sedai politics to find it believable, and enough of Egwene’s will and strength through suffering to believe her capable too.
I often was annoyed with her character, how she treated/spoke to/ thought about Rand, Mat . How condescending and arrogant she could be. And her relationship with Gawyn. But I thought she was a great character because she wasn’t perfect. She had flaws big time. But the majority of the time she was brave and smart and tried to do what was right.
I always liked her in the books. Loved the growth and her ultimate ending. Agree entirely about the relationship with Gawyn though.. felt almost like just some way to give his character a purpose.
I really love Egwene
"She is not arrogant, at least no more than she needs to be" - Elayne fucking Trakand
Oh and feel free to do more Stephen King content. I grew up with my mom reading his books all the time and I'm only now finally making a greater effort to read them. I'm working through The Stand right now, and apparently picked up some special edition one with four hundred extra pages. Here's hoping I can finish before the library expects it back.
The only time I cried reading a book is when she died
EIGHT TIMES!!!!!!????? I was smug when I started on the third read through.
Browsing through a number of the comments, I'm surprised to not see more discussion of some of the subtextual reasons for Egwene's elevation to the Amyrlin Seat (though shout out to @toychristopher for mentioning one power strength).
It's been a few years since my last re-read, but my memory is that Jordan provides a lot of textual reasons: Egwene is another thread tying to Rand, Egwene has been outside all the Salidar infighting, Egwene is a compromise candidate because none of the Salidar factions have sufficient control to pick their own first choice, Egwene is seen as easy to manipulate, and Egwene's ability to channel Saidar is very strong by Aes Sedai standards.
A couple of these reasons become (in my opinion) much more fleshed out in the later books, although the connection to Egwene's elevation is never directly stated. In particular, the "compromise candidate" and "Saidar strength" reasons get a lot of additional related material. On the Saidar strength front, the later books make it increasingly clear just how much of Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on strength with Saidar. Aes Sedai are directly juxtaposed with other groups like the Kin, who are shocked to learn that Aes Sedai defer to one another on the basis of raw channeling power. The Aes Sedai have a deeply ingrained association between strength and competence, and it's hard for me to believe that this isn't playing a substantial role in the choice of Egwene as Amyrlin. The new Amyrlin NEEDS to be someone on par with Elaida for power-and with Cadsuane's un-retirement still unknown, Suian's stilling, and Moiraine's apparent death, there's hardly anyone available to the Salidar Aes Sedai who can fit that bill. Egwene may not be a conventionally good choice, but only a small handful of White Tower initiates can even be considered for Amyrlin.
On the compromise candidate front, much later discussion is given over to the strange selection of very young sitters, both in and out of the tower. This turns out to be the result of some pretty close-to-the-vest scheming on reunification by the Ajah heads. It's not stated when she's raised, but it seems abundantly clear in hindsight, that naming Egwene Amyrlin is supposed to act in a similar way. Elaida is expendable because she's a train-wreck. The sitters are expendable because they're too young. Egwene is expendable for a whole host of reasons. Her raising is of a piece with all the other moves the Aes Sedai make to get past the schism as quickly as possible and set up structures that can be easily collapsed to reconstitute the "correct" post-Elaida form of the white tower that the Ajah heads are gunning for.
I really don't understand how Egwene's elevation can cause so much controversy. To me, there's a plethora of textual and subtextual explanation supporting it.
Here we go baby
Egwene as amrylin...worst plot I think I've read. Siane deserved that spot & would have been more believable
super late to this discussion i know, but for me i think if you step back and look at it, it made total sense. whether the rebel faction or the faction that stayed with Elaida, the Aes Sedai were corrupt. stagmant, played out, full of themselves. as a whole they could never realize that they wanted/felt/thought always being right was very wrong. they got played honestly. it was all the things together that made it happen. their own arragance, their own desparate need at the time, their own schemings. all the boxes were checked when it came to Egwene. young and dumb (to "real" aes sedai thinking) so needing guidance and control. but also super strong in the Power so they'd all want to have their fingers in on training and shaping her. and for her part, she went full on aes sedai, while also claiming things needed shaking up. the arrogance, the i'm right they're wrong, the men are dumb and barely more than work horses. but also a young silly girl from a small village. the Pattern wove a perfect Amyrlin for Tarmon Gaidon in Egwene.
I always thought that the Black Tower White Tower showdown between Rand and Egwene was because both Rand and Egwene were Emond's Fielders. Take any take any two people from the Two Rivers, put them into a world stage scenario, and watch how stubbornly they buttheads with one another. Stubborness often breeds bullheadedness.
Egwene was one of the characters who grated on me, and I never quite got to liking her character. She needed to be explicitly Ta'veren, on a level with Mat and Perrin, to make her really work in the books as there is just too much that happens to her by happenstance. And while it "works" for Perrin and Mat ("works" because we're told explicitly that Ta'veren create happenstance simply by existing, it does get a bit tiresome by the end of the books), without that same kind of mechanic applied to Egwene, it veers very closely into the "Mary Sue" territory. (It doesn't get there, but Egwene is very close; if she had been the one to be the contact with the Wayfinders as well, then I'd place her directly in the Mary Sue camp. That's how close I think she is to being a Mary Sue.)
The thing about her character itself that I disliked the most was how she seemed to view Rand as her YOUNGER brother and Husband-to-be simultaneously, and this never seemed to go away in the books. By the time Gawain is in the mix, she's full-on "Rand is my woolheaded younger brother", but right up to the point where she thinks she's going to have to literally fight him, she's still treating him as if he's just that sheep herder from the Two Rivers that she was probably going to end up marrying (because... well, who else was there to marry?), and not truly seeing him as the Dragon Reborn, the one fated to fight the Dark One himself. By the last... shee-it, the last 7 books? I was not particularly enthused about reading anything with her character in it, at all.
So if I was going to make any real changes to the story for the TV series, I would make Egwene explicitly Ta'veren. I might accept my problems with her characterization as long as she was Ta'veren, and so it would be easy to dismiss it as "The Pattern Requires Egwene to be blind to the true power of the Dragon." and go with it.
This one character remained a self-righteous annoying bully throughout the series. I felt bad for Gawyn..he deserved better. Damn this spoiled, selfish and egoistic bully. I love this series but I don't know why a person like her was one of the pillars of this beautiful series. I hate bullies and selfish brats and she was a brat fro the start till her last breath.
I love Mat, loved him from the beginning and wanted more. I loved ill, miserable, mistrustful Mat, badass Mat, Mat running from his destiny because even when it annoyed me he was true to his character. I wish he had been given more time in the beginning purely because we see nearly everything from Rands point of view and it gives you insights. Rand didn’t want to leave home. Did Mat? He was nervous and scared but also excited. I think like Egwene he might have been looking for an adventure. It would have been interesting to get in his mind more but he hooked me early anyway. I want to see his character examination.
Egwene was my absolute favorite character during my first read. Part of it was because she is present for most of the important plot points, learning about the tower and the Aiel, but also just the sheer magnitude of her character arc. That epic fiction. In subsequent reads I've noticed a few little things I don't like so much, and the hidden gems in other characters, but Egwene Al'Vere will always be a fav.
Every time I think of Egwene, I think of Zod. I couldn't stand her after she learned that she can channel.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the eqwene/rand fight and its out of place nature might actually be that Zen Rand is a Brandon Sanderson invention and this fight came from Robert Jordan and maybe Robert Jordan had a different idea of how this fight would have fit in with his version of Rand and Eqwene.
I really like Egwene, not that I would considere her perfect, but that´s kind of a point. Weirdest thing about her is her relationship with Gawain but I quess it is mostly because Gawain is simply very strange character. I got no idea what his motivation is, he is changing sides and when you think you finally kind of understand what is going on, he will absolutely do something very out of this character...
But Gawain aside, it is joy to watch Egwene rise. And I would say, it makes sense to me. She is the type with potential who also worked very hard to be always better. And with some time and experience, she didn´t just became Amyrlin, she literally became the "White tower". I also think this is why her relationship with Rand is so complicated, because not only she did change a lot but she also tend to act like an institution, therefore she simply can´t afford to take Dragon reborn like old pal. I´m not saying it´s fine and correct, I´m just saying it makes sense and I see her point.
Also she had plenty of strong moments. I wonder how much was intended from Jordan and how much was BS work, but under BS she really had true tour de force. Her death was saddest one for me, from all the series. I quess it was because she had everything to be strongest and - ironically - open minded Amyrlin in centuries but she threw it all away to fight a good fight till the end. Because she was only one strong enough to do it. She was true heroin.
I'm sure that it was in Robert Jorden's notes because around book seven (I'm not really sure which book) we hear elaida prophesying that Rand will stand infront of the amyrlin and will feel her rath
Egwene is one of my favourite characters, personally. That said, I do acknowledge the issue with her meteoric rise to power, if nothing else. That really seems quite sudden, but then again, it fits with Rand, Mat, and Perrin all doing pretty much the same, each in their own ways and to varying degrees. I also have a slightly different angle on why the rebels promote Egwene, which is that they're completely freaking out at life, the world, and everything, though they cover it in their own Aes Sedai way. But as a group, they're not entirely rational at that point, because they're still reeling in shock at the idea of a divided tower. So, they're easily led down the garden path, and who better to do that than their former Amyrlin, who knows them so well? Siuan probably thinks that Egwene will be easily manipulated, and in some ways she is, so she makes the perfect replacement Amyrlin. (That said, I would argue against the idea of Egwene being Siuan's puppet, but that's a whole different debate.)
Mat goes from dagger thief to impulsive amnesiac to Best General EVAR and marries the Seanchan Empress.
Perrin goes from dweeby blacksmith to Cool Wolf Powers Guy and Lord of Manetheren and marries a Saldaean princess.
Rand goes from hayseed yokel to Most Powerful Wizard and Chosen One Messiah Dude and hooks up with THREE hot chicks, including the Queen of Andor.
So yeah, Egwene squabbling with a bunch of Aes Sedai and whipping them into shape without the aid of ta'veren plot armor never really struck me as unrealistic.
Egwene is one of the best characters and gets way too much hate.
Addressing common issues:
-She becomes too powerful too fast: I don't even understand this complaint. Siuan explains that between her and the seanchan, Egwene was "Forced" to develop faster. Plus the series is jammed full of characters that progress rapidly.
-She didn't make sense as a candidate for amyrlin: Again, this is explained. The Rebels are looking for 6 key things in they're search: 1. Powerful. 2. Someone who wasn't in the tower during the schism. 3. Connected to the dragon Reborn. 4. Can be manipulated by the Hall. 5. Likely to be pardoned in the case of failure, or at least executed in the place of others. 6. Not named Lelaine or Romanda. Plus, they are absolutely manipulated by Siuan. It was never about her qualifications.
- Her personal relationships: This I can talk about sort of from experience. In the military, when someone gets a promotion, a smart thing is to move them to a separate section, because suddenly being in charge of their friends, or even people that are older and more experienced can cause a lot of friction. It happens with Elayne and Nynaeve. Egwene thinks she wants them to still see her as Egwene. But she quickly realizes that to have any shot at succeeding as Amyrlin, she has to BE the Amyrlin, 100%. It's why she has issues with Gawyn.
- Her relationship with Gawyn: I don't get this either. Does no one remember being 18? Plus, it can't be overstated how powerful mutual attraction can be. Also,she's heavily driven by her dreaming.
- Being a Mary Sue: Again, I don't get this. She makes plenty of mistakes and questionable decisions. She's also only successful because she's a war time leader. A lot of things she does wouldn't work in different times.
-Her fights with Rand: First, I think these are totally in keeping with Rands character. Two, even by Shadow Rising, her and Rand have grown far apart. Three, she is doing what she, and most of the leadership of the Westlands believe is best. It takes Moraine coming back from the dead to convince her and Rand to make better decisions
One of the common things I see when people complain about WoT characters being "bad" is that people have very little self awareness. RJ writes PEOPLE very well. Everything that Egwene does makes sense for her character. She's not perfect. She falls in love easily. She doesn't communicate effectively with everyone. Not all her decisions are good. So what's the problem? If anyone tells you that they get along with everyone, they're lying. If anyone tells you that they have someone that they agree with on everything, they're lying. She's a authoritarian leader, who is heavy handed? Yeah, there is an extreme limited set of scenarios where she could succeed, and limited ways to do it. If you think she's a bad person because of how she handles things, you've probably never had to be in leadership position. "Well she embarrassed Nynaeve." And? Nynaeve can't defend herself? She never bullied anyone?
I absolutely understand not living Egwene or having her as a favorite character. For me, Nynaeve and Faile have gone back and forth. I just don't get the hate and judgment from people who have read the series multiple times. My first time or two through, I thought she was boring. After that, she is absolutely one of my favorite characters.
Eqwene became Amyrlin because everyone else wanted to be Amyrlin. Eqwene was young, but she was also the strongest of them all, so they decided that Eqwene would be Amyrlin for the time being, thinking after everything was done, they would elect a real one. They figured that they would be the one to control her, to manipulate her, that they would control the power of the Amyrlin Seat. They didn't know that Siuan was secretly training Eqwene to know everything she needed to know to be the real Amyrlin, and they didn't know, that the Wise One's taught her a great deal as well. They had no idea who they were really dealing with, and the force of will she really was. She had many teachers, and she learned very fast. They only saw a young girl, they learned they were mistaken.
Gawyn, started off good, then just went down hill from there. The things he did were so.... He basically helped destroy the White Tower, and backing the insane Elaida, another character I hated.
The fact that Eqwene loved him was a big knock against her.
I hated that Bella died. That horse was on the adventure with all of them, left the Two Rivers at the same time with them, and made it all the way to the end, and dies. :(
I think her relationship with Gawyn makes perfect sense. A 18 year old bright eyed young girl wouldn't exactly have an instant adult relationship once she was out in the world. I mean, it was basically her and Rand until later on so she has no experience. Also I never felt like the conflict between her and Rand at the end felt unnatural. Maybe I am used to Aes Sedai making power hungry decisions but it just fit for me. Also I wonder if the forsaken had anything to do with it. I mean they were influencing the great generals after all. Maybe an examination of Adolin Kholin next?
I sobbed when Egwene died. But I sobbed for like 3/4th of that book, so.
OMG SHE IS a teenager! I’m 70 and can still remember some of the dumb ass things I did at 16! Don’t you?? And of course she knows everything and nothing at 16. If she had lived to 22 she would have realized how much she didn’t know. She is a wet sponge however - and wants to learn everything she can. SHe matures through her ARC and I believe as someone else said, she actually BECOMES the White Tower. Is she petty at times? Who isn’t? Her time with the Aiel is what truly grounds her and gets her ready for her future. I was devastated by her death. She was a shining star that had to burn out, but It still took me a couple of days to finish the book. And it has taken conformation of this TV show that has brought me back to reread the series for the I don’t know how many-eth times. I hadn’t been able to reread it until know. I was one of the people who reread all the books before the next one came out. There were only the first two books when I first started reading.
I was ok that they picked her, I think they wanted someone they could manipulate but also through whom they hoped to manipulate Rand.
Egwene becomes amyrlyn seat as a standoff between two faction controlling the rbel council, each cant declare her own amyrlyn because of the second.both want to exploit Egwene's lack of time and bonds in the tower to make her even easier to control, due to not knowing rules and tradition, not going through the intense training to make aes sedai so serene and iron willed(we have seen their disdain of the aiel wise ones). There is also her connection to the dragon which no one else in the tower has, save for moriane, elayne, and nyneave, and they know well that those wont make a good puppet
I agree with your general assessment of Egwene, and think that as you note her juvenile romantic affairs do not make sense with her apparent skill at character judgement and later leadership ability. And her incredible leap in ability as both a leader of men, user of medicine and mastery of Aile custom. Taken all together the parts do not fit. as the story goes on, despite her youth and inexperience she is increasing deferred to and surpasses characters who have years more training and experience than her. In the end, and by that I mean by book two, after which her path is pretty assured, she is no more entertaining than Wonder Woman. She is always right, always stronger, and someone who good things seem to always happen to.
Hi 👋🏻 great video!!! Are u going to read Brandon Sanderson book skyward????
You don't see how Rebels could pick Egvene ? I see it all the time in various other works. For example :
Abercrombie's "First Law" : Two fractions want the crown for them selves. Wizard Bayaz suddenly arrives and says 'you should pick young boy Luthar due to reasons.' Both fractions instantly agree so that the other one would not win, and because they want to pull strings on a puppet from a safe distance.
(For comparison: )
Jordan's "Wheel Of Time" : Two fractions want the Amyrlin Seat for them selves. Siuan Sanche arrives and says 'you should pick young girl Egwene due to reasons'. Both fractions instantly agree so that the other one would not win, and because they want to pull strings on a puppet from a safe distance.
PS: I love Egwene.
Egwene is one of my favorites. I loved how she grew as a character. I love how she grew into her role. She is such a badass at the last battle.
The forsaken also had influence within Salidar in order to have Egwene raised as Amyrlin
I like Egwene as a character. All her stubbornness and hardships making her stronger. The shift to Amyrlin didn’t bother me as a lot of it was politics. They intended to use her and she changed things around. I think them not knowing her is a good reason they did choose her. Also, she holds no alliances like a full sister would have. From their view she is a naive farm girl so should be pliable. Lastly she is strong in the power and that is a big thing in how they relate as AES Sedai.
She did annoy me often but so do real people. At first I can see it as immaturity but I didn’t like the conflict between her an Rand allow I accept it. Her love life annoyed me. Gawyn? Seriously? But women can be very blind to flaws in their relationship and I remember she is still young and she didn’t spend a great deal of time with him so I imagine it’s still passionate and exciting making her overlook big red flags.
Her death scene was epic and was satisfying enough to justify a major character death.
I know this is slightly out of place but I think Logan should get one of these videos. True he is not one of the most talked about character but he is a very rare character build. Being a former Dragon, then being brought down, he offers his loyalty to Rand. He knew the final battle was coming before everyone else besides Moiraine and the other Armlin seat in the series. I can't spell I do apologize. He is then able to set aside his own quest for glory twice, giving his loyalty to Rand and then at the final battle deciding to save a load of Way of the Leaf followers instead of grabbing a artifact that would have made the Black Tower just as dangerous as the White Tower.
I agree. Logain Ablar is a great character, especially in the fight for the Black Tower.
I personally like egwene. She pisses me off a lot, but so does rand. Their final confrontation I've only read twice but im not that upset by it as many people are (ahem you lol). They have no chance to talk alone even when they think they are. Egwene as Amyrlin is The Keeper of th Seals first and foremost and giving that responsibility to a wool head sheepherder (and an insane dragon reborn in her eyes, from what information she has,) can't be done. She would forfeiet everything she so stubbornly fought for. And based on her info rand is insane! Just re-read the first book again and it's classic rand and egwene not knowing how to communicate properly. I have a younger sister and I'd say that scene was done well. I'd say tear it down and start anew and she'd say fix whats already in place
Don't know Egwenay al'Vere enough yet....so I like her? A lot!
Thank you! I hated how Rand and Egwene butt heads at the end, I hope the Amazon series does a little more to distance them, probably by making the story take a longer amount of time then the books will help some of the issues like this that I have with the story. I can believe she deserves to be Amyrlene, but I need more of the arguments between the Aes Sedai to make their raising her believable. I'm a little hazy on the details of the lead up to her appointment, but if we had a few scenes of 1) the arguments and rejections of several candidates, and
2) Suane going to individual sitters and planting the right seeds in each sisters mind. One sister thinks she'll be a good puppet, one thinks she'll be easily manipulated, one believes she will infuriate Elaida enough to cause a mistake, etc... thus when she is appointed every sitter is doing it for a different reason.
3) I don't remember if we were told Suane's reasoning, if not, we may need that.
Aww baby-faced Daniel lol, I thought this was a recent vid until it started playing lol, I'm sure it'll still be a good one though
Egwene is worst original main character in the WOT. I can't stand her at all. I hate how she treats her so called friends. I have zero respect for her until she dies. She is quite frankly a total b****. She a teenager who thinks she knows everything. I have read the books about 15 times and I tried to like her but can't. She has no respect for anyone doesn't listen to advice, or people above her. I really hate her after the battle of the white tower. She couldn't understand that she was losing the rebels, because she was making the same mistake as Siuan Sanche by keeping everything to herself. I think there's a few good things but for the most part I was hopping she would shut up. Prime example EOTW she keeps acting like she knows everything the hole book but she knows nothing. el'Nynaeve at least has some experience and starts to learns to let go it takes about 3/4 of the series before she finally likable. Egwene just becomes more and more I'm always right I do no wrong. Then she want to start a war with Rand because she knows sooo much about beating the dark one. Was so glad she died too bad it didn't happen sooner.
Would have loved if Demandred would have broken her and left the selfish brat to die in a hole somewhere. That's an end fitting a selfish power-hungry brat who doesn't grow up
OMG SHE IS a teenager! I’m 70 and can still remember some of the dumb ass things I did at 16! Don’t you?? And of course she knows everything and nothing at 16. If she had lived to 22 she would have realized how much she didn’t know. She is a wet sponge however - and wants to learn everything she can. SHe matures through her ARC and I believe as someone else said, she actually BECOMES the White Tower. Is she petty at times? Who isn’t? Her time with the Aiel is what truly grounds her and gets her ready for her future. I was devastated by her death. She was a shining star that had to burn out, but It still took me a couple of days to finish the book. And it has taken conformation of this TV show that has brought me back to reread the series for the I don’t know how many-eth times. I was one of the people who reread the books before the next one came out. There were only the first two books when I first started reading.
I need to reread the series but I believe the reasons Egwene was raised were pretty well laid out. There was a book or two where the internal politics of the rebels was portrayed before Egwene got there. They had 2 internal factions willing to stonewall each other which was forcing a stalemate. The USA has elected at least one presidential candidate purely because everyone could agree that that guy wasn't terrible and no one would support the other factions candidates.
I remember it being well handled and treated like it was still someone surprising. If I remember correctly, the reason it was allowed was because Egwene was too far removed from Aes Sedai and thus was not aligned with either faction. Both factions thought they could manipulate her easily because of prejudiced views of Aiel as simple barbarians.
The general sense was that the rebellion was falling apart and no one wanted the job of Amyrlin because they would probably get stilled- but the Sitters had to pick one in order to go forward with the rebellion because they were beyond the point of no return. They would be stilled for "claiming to be sitters".
I loved her desire to learn. She was open to every oppurtunity to learn to fulfill her dream of becoming an AesSedai. She willingly went into the waste to study with the Aiel wise women. I was concerned none of the 3 women would ever get full training
I didn't realize people didn't like Egwene. The only point you bring up among those who dislike Egwene is her romance with Gawain. I think she earns her story more than some of the guys, especially Mat.
All of your points about becoming the Amyrlin Seat are completely explained in the book. The rebels made her their Amyrlin Seat FOR all of those reasons: because she was powerful, but now well connected with anyone in the White Tower. Her strength in the One Power allowed them to justify elevating her to that position. The Aes Sedai are shown time and time again to let their arrogance blind them, especially towards other traditions with the power. They didn't respect Egwene's training with the Wise Ones at all. All they cared about was having a puppet. They also didn't want to take the risk--- the rebel Amyrlin would be killed if they failed.
As far as her miscommunication with Rand... I think that's completely justified in the book but it is hard for the reader to understand because we have both sides of the story. For Rand, he does not trust anyone who is aes sedai, even a lifelong friend. For Egwene, she has all of these rumors and stories and must appear strong as the Amyrlin. And honestly, reading the book most of the problem came from Rand-- even though it's justified due to his mistreatment.
It BAFFLES me that Mat is the fan favorite character. Mat is an impulsive imbecile in the early books, and is immature and impulsive to the end. Mat literally has all of his expertise and competence handed to him by the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, he has ta'veren plot device powers, and magical luck. He doesn't earn ANYTHING.
People just follow him, because ta'veren. He's always in the right place at the right time, because ta'veren. He has the Dark One's own luck, because ta'veren. I really got tired of ta'veren being the explanation for everything that happens to Mat, but what else is there? His solid upbringing as a Two Rivers prankster? His history of excellent life choices, like stealing a dagger from Shadar Logoth? His attitude toward any authoritative person?
Mat never listens to anyone, he never has a rational thought, and he never has an adult conversation with anyone that I can remember. He just quips and yuks it up with Talmanes and goes wherever his ta'veren powers take him. And this guy is the golden boy of the series. Because he's 'funny', I guess. Personally, I don't find him amusing at all, and it's hard not to see him as a Mary Sue.
@@Siansonea I still love Mat! But I think you're correct in the hypocrisy of fans taking issue with Egwene when they don't take issue with Mat, or with Perrin and Rand for that matter. I don't accuse Daniel of this, but I think there is sexism influencing Egwene-hating in parts of the fan community.
@@Siansonea I do agree with you, that Mat is far from perfect, I also don´t know why he is commonly considered most favorite or one of the most favorite characters. There are others who are more interesting. But to be also fair to Mat, he is IMO more complex than you claim. He is far from easygoing character, he is more somebody who is pretending to be "just" this funny, no-care-in-the-world laid back character but there is huge internal struggle within him. The point is - he doesn´t want to be ta´veren, he doesn´t want to be part of some "damned" prophecies, he doesn´t want to be toy for Ael/Eel etc. He is struggling with this even if he pretend not to. And also, he got some great moments. He DID sacrifice half of the light in the world to save the world. He is not just some funny dude who got it to easy. ;)
She was also chosen to be Amyrlin because she was just an accepted who was out of the tower the vast majority of the time. If she had failed to win and unite the tower, she would have been treated as an unwitting pawn to be punished and not stilled and executed. She is there to be a scapegoat if things go south and indeed they do and Elaida merely reduces her to novice for those reasons. Figurehead and scapegoat whom the tower would be forced to show leniency to.
Gushy Romance: I didn't particularly enjoy reading these scenes, however I didn't feel it clashed with her character. Egwene is independent and mature, however, her romantic experience is very little and there are many examples in life with people who behave counter to their character when it comes to their love life - so I can reconcile that part of her character against how I would see anyone with her background acting when they found love for the first time (exempting Rand since that was really more like an early crush that went nowhere in the end).
Pretty much agree with all the other points though.
Egwene being made Amyrlin: I agree it's implausible that the Aes Sedai would accept this. I think two major arguments for her could have helped if they were in the books, involving the ongoing breaking of the world and nobility. One, she's best friends with Elayne, which unfortunately is never even mentioned by the rebels. Two, reports could have come in that she had gotten along well enough with the Tairen lords, perhaps from Moiraine herself. Likewise, if the rebels actually had been concerned with the Seanchan threat, and knew of her capture and escape. All these would have been much more convincing for Siuan to use than what was mentioned in the story, I think. It's definitely a case of RJ being impatient to get to the good parts of the story of Egwene and the rebels.
As far as her relationship with Gawyn, my theory is that when she was chased down in the Dream Star place by him and pulled into his dream, she accidentally leveraged their mutual, natural affection for a bit of Dream Compulsion. It was very much in the direction of his later obsessions: story book rescue, etc. Gawyn goes on to not only become obsessed with saving her and his mother. The only evidence he is given that Rand killed Morgase was the initial rumor he heard, but even when every person he trusts says otherwise, he is convinced that The Dragon is guilty at one point even has thoughts that he could save Egwene from The Dragon. For all the foreshadowing we have for every other character in the series, there's no indication Gawyn would become this person before that Dream.
One other thing I want to mention is RJ's comments that there is a female Champion (for the Wheel) as well as The Dragon. I tend to think that whatever her purpose is, it's not featured very heavily in the story, but may have to do with more "natural" or internal-to-the-wheel threats, such as Balefire. If so, it's definitely (I think) Egwene, and Balefire would be a good example, being solved by her Flame of Tar Valon.
Melaine was a well-aged wise one known for her prickly personality until she fell in love and married Bael. If she can get gushy, Egwene could also get gushy. That being said, Egwene is my least favorite character in the entire series. I agree with all the negative points you make about her here, but one thing I never hear said is her blatant hypocrisy. She's so proud of her "Aiel heart" after she takes responsibility for her lies to the wise ones and admits them, taking her punishment before going to Salidar. Unfortunately, her ability to accept responsibility for her actions ends here. She continues to lie to the Aes Sedai (probably knowing they wouldn't just spank her and let it go like the wise ones did), even turning around Nicola's and Areina's blackmail back on them to ensure no one learned she'd pretended to be Aes Sedai as an Accepted. Also, it takes a true Mary Sue to stand toe-to-toe with 3 ta'veren for 14 books and never once feel the pull of any of them, especially when their presence affects not only everyone else, but each other. All it would have taken to make me accept some of her unbelievable features would have been for Jordan to make her ta'veren also. She seemed to have a bigger effect on the world than Perrin did, and he was one of the main three. I've seen comments from other people who believe that a lot of (particularly male) readers' problems with Egwene is that she's female, but that's not the case. It's purely the fact that she butts heads with three of them and never once is swayed by it.
First, let me say, I did like Egwene, having just finished the series tonight for the first time. The thing I didn't like (but also did) was her death. With all of the "foretellnig" of Egwene becoming the greatest ever Amyrlin Seat, then she dies, and does so before breaking the seals, it was just that I was expecting that she would have a no-win choice to break the seals, but also have a 100s year reign as Amyrlin. But she failed as Watcher of the Seals, but did succeed at Flame of Tar Valon.
I do disagree with a point made in this video. I think she did have enough time in the White Tower, as prisoner, to win over those who mattered. And those who didn't ended up dead, as Domane, or otherwise subjugated. She was pretty brutal with the executions of the Black Ajah. But it was necessary.
Just want to add that the flicker, flicker, flicker thing doesn't have anything to do with Egwene's length of captivity. Egwene and the girls had their own time jump of being in the tower for some months before Liandrin sold them out.
I think that Egwene being made Amirlyn Seat is more of a only viable option. Every sister is familiar with the politics, so none could have been raised to the position without someone disagreeing or disbieliving her. Egwene is really powerful and is already experienced enough to be taken seriously, making her a possible lighthouse to the rebles. She is away from the politics of the tower and seen as a young, possibly easy to manipulate, subject. In this perspective, Nynaeve is too stubborn and single-minded to be easy to manipulate and Elayne, being the heir to the throne of Andor, couldn't possibly fit the Seat. That leaves us with Egwene, which ends up being the only suitable person to fill the gap.
Her role becoming Amyrlin for the rebel Aes Sedai as a figurehead is similar to the role of Jane Grey, who was elevated by people who wanted someone else to be executed if it all went south... Also we have to consider the influence of the Shadow
I feel like everybody is missing that it was said, IN DIALOGUE, that Egwene was raised as the rebel Amyrlin so that the Tower Aes Sedai could execute her without anybody losing a full Aes Sedai for reunification. That went out the window fairly quickly due to various factors, but it was said in dialogue. I can't remember who all was involved in the conversation, but I think Bryne was part of it.
You have to do Verin Mathwin
If you've not done a character examination for Moiraine, that would be cool
I think Gawyn was a huge factor in humanizing her character. She was still a human, and her immaturity with that specific relationship was a great balance to just how insanely overpowered her character became. In my opinion, of course
didn't like Egwene. I found her chapters a slog. Like most of the female characters in the book, she is narrow minded and extremely sexist. Morraine being the only female who isn't, for whatever reason. I rooted for her to succeed in the White Tower, but I think that was just because everyone surrounding her was even less likeable then she was.
"she is narrow minded and extremely sexist"
So you are saying she is from California?
Sexist from our point of view. Where she's from and everywhere she's gone the women have the power...it's a female-centric society.
@@filam7371 Except for Tear.
@@filam7371 for the aes sedai & areas they influenced yes. There is no reason the two rivers would have materiarchal unless the men were just a race of spineless push overs...no one there was using the power historically so the women there had no edge.
@@filam7371 Most fantasy stories take place in male-centric societies, but the male protagonists don't spend their time complaining about, bullying, overpowering, hitting and humiliating women.
I love most of her arcs, but I just cannot like her personality.
She is dedicated, clever (sometimes), and ambitious. The problem is that any other trait suffers.
It is not true that she cannot have any friends or take 15 minutes off to visit family. She doesn't want to, because she feels above them.
At first it just seems like it is because she wants to experience something else than her small village, which is fair, but it very quickly goes into that she obviously forgets her family completely because she is just sooo awesome now that she cannot be bothered. I am not just talking about when she is Amyrlin, but after a couple of months in the tower, any sign of feelings towards the place where she has spent the first, what 16 years?, seems to have been put in a box and thrown in a lake.
The same goes with her friends. When she is above them in any way, she becomes intent on showing them how little they really matter to her. Teaching lessons aside, we see several times where she relishes making them feel bad or where she pushes them down in the metaphorical mud.
I have basically boiled it down to that I think she is awesome when she is the underdog. At those times, she can be good, inspiring, and even admirable. As soon as she has power over anyone or feels that she is above someone, they are, at best, tools to her.
Overall I thought that Egwene was a complex yet rushed character. But that was kinda the world. She went from small town innkeepers daughter where she experienced small town politics. More mature than Matt and Rand, but somewhat even footing with Perrin. Then thrust into the machinations of Aes Sadai, Royalty, Wise Ones, Windtalkers, and Sanchan.
I absolutely love her!
Me too. Especially love how she was a Ghandy in books 11 to 12
I have no strong feeling towards egsandwich. I think you hit the nail on the head
If Robert Jordan had just written the sentence "It turned out Egwene was also ta'veren" at some point everything about her character would be fine. She doesn't do anything more outlandish than the three male leads, but because she's never revealed to have secret plot magic that puts her where she needs to be it just feels trite. She's not a Mary Sue, it just feels like RJ didn't know what to do with her character (or the other women, for that matter) and just awkwardly crammed her into a position of prominence so she could have something to do.