We Are MIND BLOWN! | SHOGUN | Reaction Episode 10
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- First Time Watching
"A Dream Of A Dream"
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00:00 Intro
00:32 Episode 10
20:47 Outro
Hulu Original Series: Shogun
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![A Dream of a Dream | SHOGUN [1x10] (REACTION)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4Qiymrt_BG8/mqdefault.jpg)
Anjin didnt leave Japan .The episode was called A dream of a Dream.That was the future he dreamed of,dying of old age in England with great memories about his greatest love.....but he lost her and had to let go of his dream in the end while in the boat with Fuji....
Yes it was a dream, another indicator was Dream Blackthrone was holding Mariko's cross but he let go of it in the sea when Yuki did the same with her husband and son's ashes
If I remember from the book, Toronaga’s summation of Blackethorne’s fate was, essentially, “…..yes, I know you will try to rebuild your ship….. crew it with (from VERY hazy memory) ‘Wako’ pirates….. every time you do, though, I shall burn it again.”
From memory, the book didn’t explain why this was Toronaga’s plan, just that it was.
Perhaps Toronaga felt that knowledge of how relatively weak Japan was in relation to the West in terms of the military sciences needed to be contained as long as possible to give Japan time to catch up, I just don’t know.
In support of this hypothesis, though, I remember distinctly from the book Blackthorne’s awe and conclusion, as he passed gate after gate, wall after wall, of Osaka Castle that it was absolutely impregnable…… until a little further along the walk to get to Toronaga’s quarters, he suddenly had the realization, “Cannons!……. There’s not a single cannon defending it!….. Why, I could take this place with a small, cannon-armed force. It’d take a while to batter down each wall but I could take this place without losing a single man!”
If Anjin figured that out, pretty safe Toronaga did, as well.
@@MrSmithla (in the book) Blackthorne's existence was a constant threat to keep the Catholics distracted, but if he were to *actually* sail against the Black Ship, Toranaga would basically be at war with the Church. So: the threat of rebuilding was too useful, but the "solution" of burning it would work again and again. Especially because Blackthorne really did think the Church had done it.
Of course, about 15 years after Toranaga's real-life counterpart became Shogun, he dealt with the Catholics (and their attempt to overthrow him) by expelling them, making Christianity illegal, and torturing those who wanted to remain in shockingly brutal ways. Martin Scorsese's movie "Silence" covers that era of history.
徳川幕府はカトリックの国々との交易と日本人がカトリックに入信することは禁じましたが、プロテスタントの国々との交易は続けました。
アンジンのモデルの三浦按針はイギリス人でプロテスタントだったのでその後も追放されませんでした。
In the show, he does die in Japan. The scene where he is in England as a dying old man is from a dream, hence the title "A dream of a dream". If you watched the entire thing, you'd realise that John still had Mariko's necklace in the scene where he was old whereas he dropped it in the water towards the end of the episode, making that dying old man scene basically impossible
The last words Toranaga spoke to Yabushige, "What's the point of telling the dead about the future," were the same words Yabushige told Ohmi about Toranaga in the first episode. When I heard that, I got goosebumps and understood Toranaga's terrifying nature. Yabushige was under Toranaga's surveillance from beginning to end, and every word he spoke was completely transparent to Toranaga. Yabushige was a pawn in Toranaga's hands from the very beginning.
There is a koan about the 3 great unifiers of Japan that is taught to school children
When asked what they would do about a bird that does not sing
Oda Nobunaga (Kuroda) says "Kill It"
Toyotomi Hideyoshi (The Taiko) says coax it to sing
Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toronaga) says "Wait"
Mariko was the falcon. She hid against the sun before making her move. Toranaga set her avatar free.
"Flowers are only flowers, because they fall."
Mariko to Anjin as he prepares to second her...
"Wait til i fall"
It makes more sense now but it hurts even more too💔
"May you bear many daughters" basically means peace for the future.
Having sons leads to more soldiers, which leads to more wars.
Having more daughters leads to more peaceful times.
Also in falconry, you fly female hawks (not sure about eagles) So having many daughters gives him a chance to use them as well.
I think it was also simply acknowledging the value of Mariko, and other women, who were as important to his victory as his samurai.
Toranaga's territory, "Edo," changed its name to "Tokyo" in 1868.
Great Reaction! In actual Japanese history, Lady Mariko's (Hosokawa Gracia) death in protest provoked the anger of all the feudal lords in Japan and led to the defeat of Ishido (Ishida Mitsunari) in the Battle of Sekigahara. Her beautiful resignation was also used verbatim in the play.
The twist was that Toranaga was the most ruthless politician the whole time. He used all his people like Mariko and Toda to get his way and become the shogun. He even used the death of his son, you can see he didn’t really care as much about his son’s death episode when he said that ‘he has other sons’ in a nonchalant manner. Ochiba was most likely right that Toranaga convinced Mariko’s father into killing her father and thus making the Taiko the ruler of Japan and make Toranaga much closer to the top power in Japan.
And from here, the historical Tokugawa installs his eldest son as a figurehead while he would continue to rule from behind the scenes, eventually provoking the young heir and into a conflict, putting Osaka to the torch and forcing the heir and his mother to commit seppuku, and beheading the heir's eight year old son to end the Taiko's clan and with it the last of his political rivals. A few years later he dies from syphilis.
That scene with Blackthorne in the boat, staring off into the distance as the grief catches up with him.... man, that hits hard.
9:15 Do you recall back in Ep6 "Ladies of the willow world" , even though the participants of that teahouse scene do not yet know it, the courtesan's words literal meaning: "Presence is most felt keenly in absence" comes into full effect right at this moment. Powerful subtle scene & call back. This episode goes full circle for multiple closures.
All the episodes are so nuanced, each re-watch sheds new light on the writing. GOATed series.
How the heck does Shogun not get any accolades/awards is seriously beyond me.
Thanks for the ride, you two are great! Best reaction on youtube. Mariko's death poem was basically the flowers are flowers because they fall line. Her real life counterpart Hosokawa Gracia supposedly left this as her death poem: "Only by knowing when to fall Do flowers become flowers And people become people"
I know a lot of people felt the finale was anticlimactic but I loved it. I guess it helps that I had read the books and knew it was coming. The book ends similarly with a lot of exposition, revelations, but no portrayal of a big battle.
They did such a fantastic job here of showing how Mariko's last act haunted absolutely everyone, even Toranaga who had ordered her to do it. But my favorite scenes were every one with John and Fujika-sama, best nun. Those scenes were sublime and I ugly cried at that boat scene. Together. Forever.
He did establish peace. Read up on the Edo period…it was like 2 hundred years of peace.
Then William Perry happened. lol
Toronago smiled and said, "why tell a dead man the future" because in the first episode Yabushige (the man he talks to in that final scene) had said that when he was withholding information from Toronago about the Anjin and the ship and such. So basically a call back that Toronago knew this entire time even when people played games around him.
So yabushige's nephew was a spy all along.
Or his right-hand man. He was also present, which explains why the information got to Toronaga while his son looked to be so loyal to Yabushige.
@@vatsal7640 not all along, but Omi realized the only way he'd keep his head after Mariko's death (once word reached Toranaga about Yabu's betraying Mariko) was to tell Toranaga everything and betray his uncle. Omi was loyal to his uncle at first.
Toranaga*
It might be this, or Omi switched to Toranaga after he had his doubts with Yabushige on episode where he was talking to Kiku about lotalty and he doesn't know where he stands.
21:14 "He wants peace for the realm". Yes. Tokugawa Ieyasu, the real life man on which Toronaga portrays became shogun and ruled from Edo (today's Tokyo). He and his descendants ruled japan for nearly 250 years without war until the emperor Meiji took back power from the shogun in mid 1800s
Everyone wants to save the world. They just don´t agree on how.
"A nation without wars. A era of great peace."
Tokugawa Ieyasu, the model for Toranaga, actually brought about 260 years of peace in Japan. He is truly an incredible person.
You can say his rule lead to WW2 japanese involvement.
@@PROVOCATEURSKthat was a MUCH more complex transition that came about with the Meiji reforms.
17:48
"We have all been played"
Well Toranaga is known to be a great trickster so it is very in character for him.
He tricked us by thinking he won´t trick us.
the dream confused a lot of us. Remember one other thing. Earlier when John sees Toranaga's suit of armor Mariko said he saw it in a dream.
Good catch. This show deserves a re-watch.
The real life person Blackthorn was modeled after was named William Adams.. he never Left Japan , he did become official advisor to the real Shogun Toranaga was modeled after.. and taught him navigation.. astronomy.. and all things about europe. They did build a few new ships and eventually he even sailed to conduct trade around Asia.. but the Anjin , never went home.. he no longer felt comfortable around his own people. Maybe they will explore this in the new Season.. the big Battle.. how Edo which is now Tokyo became the capital.. all of it. Your reactions and insights were wonderful. Thank you and cya next time!
He also married and had 2 children. What a crazy story
I said after finishing it that I would love to see them beginning to build Tokyo, maybe a short time skip of 5 years or so
It was Anjin who brokered the Anglo-Japanese trade.
He brokered all trade for Japan with European nations. Primarily with the Dutch East India Company and (English) East India Company.
The Anglo-Japanese trade only lasted a decade, due to the English leaving Japan, in 1623, because they deemed it to no longer be profitable. 231 years later, Anglo-Japanese trade would resume in 1854.
After the Portuguese were expelled from Japan in 1637, the Dutch would maintain their monopoly on Japanese trade until 1853.
Hiroyuki said in an interview that he believes Toranaga didnt actually WANT to be Shogun, but because he couldnt trust anyone to do what needed to be done to fulfill his dream of Japan, which remember he said was that he wanted peace, he felt that he HAD to be Shogun, regardless of whether or not he wanted to be. Ultimately what he wanted was Japan at peace, and in that sense being Shogun is only a means to that end. And yes, it would seem there has at least been a second season confirmed, as Hiroyuki has signed a contract to continue playing the character of Toranaga.
I heard that interview. Imo, that's another big departure from the real life Tokugawa Ieyasu since Ieyasu was seen as pretty power hungry. I'd even argue book Toranaga was pretty power hungry too but just hid it well. About that second season, yes, Hiroyuki did sign on but my understanding was that it's just in case a second season were to happen. One of the logistical problems is if they can't get the actors back by the time a second season is greenlit so they're making sure the big actors are onboard first before they do anything.
@@megamonster1234 ohh I see. Well, I definitely hope they make at least one more season. I think 3 might be pushing it. I'd rather it not get milked until it's dry. The character of Toranaga, as well as Hiro's portrayal of him, considering he is based off Tokugawa leyasu is very interesting. I've read that many people of Japan worship Tokugawa, just as I've read that many consider him a ruthless devil, where his ends of a peaceful and prosperous Japan for 250 years did not justify the means by which it was achieved. I'm curious as to Hiro's personal view on Tokugawa and the Tokugawa Shogunate. Of course, though history can be viewed through the lens of the present, it must always be viewed on its own terms.
Tbh, I've got mixed feelings about them having a second season. This season ended the story sufficiently and at a high note. I would very much rather they produce _Gai-jin_ instead, which is also an excellent choice for a mini-series.
I’d also point out the historical parallel of Caesar Augustus. He was both power hungry and adopted a public persona of not seeking power or titles, yet a little pull of this string, a whispered conversation in this or that ear from one of his allies and, the next thing you knew he was ‘given’ absolute power by the Senate, all the while publicly saying “Oh no, I’m just a simple Roman.”
Generally speaking no one has ever achieved absolute power by accident. If the actor plays the character like that, then he’s playing it PERFECTLY!
In the book Toranaga tells Yabushige something like "yes i wanted to be shogun all my life". And yes it worked, the "real" toranaga (forgot his real name) brought peace to japan for about 200 years. But he was not really the classic "good guy"
News broke that Shogun will get seasons 2 and 3 renewed so the story can move forward based on history. Glad you guys enjoyed the show. A thing to keep in mind going forward though is that all the planning by Toranaga was to ensure that his side would be the victor should a war happen, not to prevent a war from happening because the Battle of Sekigahara did occur. It was just that in that battle, Tokugawa (Toranaga)'s army losses were small compared to Ishida's army, making Tokugawa the victor that day. Hosokawa Gracia's (Lady Mariko) death turned a sizable number of the high samurai families against Ishida.
There's a lot from the Battle of Sekigahara that the writers can draw from for season 2 that won't negate anything that occurred in season 1, as long as they have good/excellent writers for the show in the 2nd season. There's more to William Adams's (John Blackthorne) story as he becomes an advisor to Tokugawa, and then there's the Siege of Osaka Castle, which will end the Taiko's heir's story along with his mother Ochiba-no-kata (real life Yodo-dono).
Toranaga's secret heart...great reaction.
The flash forward was just a dream not john's actual future.
The falcon was Mariko. In life she died in his service, her spirit he released back to the 'sky'.
The Taiko was testing Toranaga, he already had the papers for the council of Regents drawn up and ready to go
I'm pretty sure that the second season will be based on the Siege of Osaka (1614-1615). The situation leading up to the event is full of political conspiracies and battles large and small. If you read the Wikipedia entry on the Siege of Osaka, you'll agree with me. Wikipedia explains the background as follows:
When Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598, Japan came to be governed by the Council of Five Elders, among whom Tokugawa Ieyasu possessed the most authority. After defeating Ishida Mitsunari in the Battle of Sekigahara in 1600, Ieyasu essentially seized control of Japan for himself and abolished the Council. In 1603, the Tokugawa shogunate was established with its capital at Edo. Hideyoshi's son Toyotomi Hideyori and his mother Yodo-dono were allowed to stay at Osaka Castle, a fortress that had served as Hideyoshi's residence. Hideyori remained confined to the castle for several years. In addition, as a mechanism of control, it was agreed that in the year 1603 he would marry the daughter of Tokugawa Hidetada, Senhime, who was related to both clans. Ieyasu sought to establish a powerful and stable regime under the rule of his own clan. Only the Toyotomi clan, led by Hideyori under the influence of Yodo-dono, remained an obstacle to that goal...
Great ten episodes, listening to your analysis, commentary and reaction, Thank You.
The characters are based on real people... His shogunate lasted 260 years with no wars.
Took a handful of death to save a nation.
that is why we need dictatorship
Thanks to the prolonged period of peace, popular culture flourished. Ieyasu (Toranaga) is recognized as a contributor to cultural creation. He personally created calligraphy and paintings, and invested in the printing industry by utilizing letterpress printing technology, significantly influencing the cultural landscape of the time. With the publication of numerous books, Japan's literacy rate reached 80-90%.
And that lead to a lot of things in WW2.
@@PROVOCATEURSK Yes, WWII began with Western colonialism, and Japan fought to liberate Asia.
You should watch Fallout it's a fun show.
Also I believe Shogun will be getting a 2nd season.
The show was definitely written to trick people who don't know Japanese history to see Toranaga as the hero although they did portent his true intentions with the 3 Hearts monologue at end of episode 1. Ishido and the Council of Regents suspicions were correct. Ochiba's long-term observation and suspicions were correct. But such was Toranaga's charm and manipulation, that he manipulated her to abandoning the only person keeping her son, the heir, safe to side with a man she knew was behind her father's murder. And he did it by sacrificing her best friend. To say he is the villain is difficult though.. yes the means were brutal (RIP Ochiba and the heir) but Japan did go on to have centuries of political stability, economic prosperity and peace under the Tokugawa shogunate.
It lead to Japan in WW2 thou.
@@PROVOCATEURSK How though? The Tokugawa shogunate had been abolished in 1868 during the meijin reforms when America forced Japan open, alot of the reasons Japan joined the axis powers is because of the way they were treated at the end pf ww1
Since this series is based on reality to a large extent, you just have to read about Japanese history to learn what happened after this. Tokugawa, the real life Toranaga, became shogun. His shogunate lasted for over 250 years and it was mostly a peaceful period for the country.
It ended when the Americans showed up and created chaos in the 1850's. The shogunate was eventually overthrown and power was returned to the emperor, who moved to Edo and renamed it Tokyo (Eastern capital).
To my future self in a couple of years when season 2 comes out and I'm gonna watch these reactions again: HELLO GOOD SIR!
There is a myth in Japan that a giant Catfish lives under the islands, and when it thrashes about, that causes Earthquakes. So Catfish, and Koi are steeped in mythology there.
Toranaga threw back Yabushige words he used in Episode one, meaning he knew what he said then, revealing yabushige's own nephew was passing on information.
We were played, but played for 260 years of peace. So in the end a good trade off.
Great reaction videos through ten episodes!
Also said in Episode 1🙂
Mariko: "Let her hands be the last to hold her son."
also said in episode 1 - Yabushige: "Why tell a dead man the future?"
Toronaga played chess-like, sacrificing some valuable pieces... to win the game.
It's not like he was Ned Stark, or Tywin Lanister, or Olenna Tyrell. He was all of them, combined.
And John... was like Jon (Snow). "You know nothing, Jon Snow". Gone everywhere, done lots of things, but in the end... He was nothing.
I'll miss Hiromatsu and Mariko. Two incredible characters interpreted by two incredible actors.
Thank you for your reactions, smiling lil sis, and awesome gorgeous big sis.
rewatching this show with you two has been a blast. thanks for putting in the time!
It is an amazing element of this show how much it draws from history. The death poem of the woman Mariko is based on was "Flowers truly become flowers, and people truly become people, because they know when to fall”
There wasn't supposed to be a second season because James Clavell didn't write a second book, but a second season HAS been greenlit!
At least we know the real history that it was based on, so the heavy lifting's been done for us by Adams, Tokugawa and the pages of history.
True, but then again Tokugawa brought on 250+ years of peace, which would significantly lower the stakes compared to Clavell's story. Also, actual history includes Tokugawa eventually forcing seppuku on both the heir and his mother, which would be a severe dent in our fictional Toranaga's likeability. I think the writers have their work cut out for them. But if anyone can do it, it is this incredible team.
I’m curious if they’ll be adapting more of Clavell’s Asian Saga series of which Shōgun is the first of *six*
@@deanthemachine7489 Someone very well might, but I don't think it will be this creative team, since a lot of them are either Japanese or Japanese-American, and Clavell's other novels are not taking place in Japan. This was clearly a labour of love from a team wanting to accurately portray Japanese history. And to repeat the success with other Clavell novels, they'd probably want to assemble a team of creatives partially from those respective countries, in order to nail the same accuracy.
You are great, so sensitive and honest in your reactions, you noticed a large number of references in each chapter, I really enjoyed your videos of this wonderful series
I read the book (and watched the 1980 original) so I knew going in the direction everything, and everyone, was going but there was always a chance the showrunners might make some changes for this iteration. One of the most interesting things about it is that our two leads, Blackthorne and Toranaga, are sort of villains. Blackthorne was absolutely a pirate and Toranaga used , and sacrificed, so many people around him to become Shogun all the while feigning innocence. It's a crazy, fun ride. BTW, for anyone who hasn't seen the 1980 version I would recommend giving it a chance. It's got 1980 production value but there are actually some things about that one that I found better than this remake. Also, Toshiro Mifune!
There were several positive aspects of the 1980 miniseries I liked better than the 2024 version, the first was that it was shot entirely on location in Japan so we get a more authentic feel. I still don't really understand why the new version had to be shot in Canada. Also, the casting was great! As you mentioned, Toshiro Mifune as Toranaga was inspiring, John Rhys-Davies as Rodriguez and Richard Chamberlain as Blackthorne had a great love-hate chemistry and I have to say Yoko Shimada as Mariko was the first Japanese actress I ever had a crush on. On the downside though the pacing seemed rather clunky, the show felt like an overstretched romance story and the overdubbing narration from Orson Welles seemed unnecessary and intrusive.
Guy following Yabushige around is like a squire. Young guy from a different family learning how to be a samurai by serving an older one basically.
Takemaru is a 37-year old grown-ass man, he's just a loyal retainer of Yabushige.
Beautiful finale, that smirk at the end between Toronaga and Blackthorne. I really hoped Fuji would stay, with everything she's been through she deserves some happiness.
She has. She will find peace as a nun now that she let go of her family and her grieve.
Not a finale.
13:58 It's not his son, just his loyal attendant.
When I toured Japan, we went to Nikko, where the real Toranaga was buried. A really great memorial for the greatest Shogun. It is still not clear what is in the secret heart of Toranaga.
Toranaga isn't a real character in history though, so that's very impressive if you did
@@alexqhjToranaga was based on Tokugawa, an actual person who is buried there.
@@alexqhj He was, his real name was Tokugawa Ieyasu.
@@alexqhj way to say you don't know much
@@alexqhj Tokugawa was the historical man, and yes we did ;-)
Great reaction as usual, not sure if you all heard the news, but season 2 and 3 have been confirmed and are being worked on
My favorite show in a long time, maybe ever. I grew to love these characters too. I enjoyed rewatching the episodes with your reactions. Such a good show! So, you may get your wish: FX green lit seasons 2 and 3 of Shogun to extend the story beyond the original novel, which had ended here. It was very loosely based on history, so the writers have that to work with. It seems the original showrunners are thankfully returning. Hoping the following seasons have this level of dedication in the production. I'm really surprised, and feel it maybe should have ended here, but at the same time, I want to see if they can make two more seasons as good as this one. Loved this show and season no matter what happens!
Season 2 and 3 just confirmed today. Main writers and producers to return along with Hiroyuki Sanata.
season 3? really? I read about FX and Sanada signed in for season 2, omg season 3 I hope so
Then that means that the story will expand beyond the pages of the actual book. Because this is where it’s supposed to have ended.
Wow! I found a reason to live.
@@rsuriyopJapan and Tokugawa Ieyasu's history didn't end with the books...
I would rather have seen more mini series based on James Clavell's other books in his Asia Sagas starting with the first, King Rat
Thank you both for a great reaction to this mini series. 🤗
Interesting factoid, the lake where yhey filmed the scene with Fuji and Blackthorne is actually the same lake where James Clavell's ashes are spread
Blackthorn technically didn't leave Japan . "A dream of a Dream" was the future he dreamed or wished for, dying of old age in England with memories about Mariko and his time in the Japans. He lost Mariko and had to let go of his dream, when he dropped the cross in the water off the boat that was him letting go of his "dream".
The line where Toranaga said, "why tell a dead man the future" is a call back to the first episode when Yabushige said the same thing in reference to the ships, cannons and guns, when asked if he was going to report it to Toranaga. It all came full circle in the end.
The keel (the long wooden form that runs along the center of the ship's hull) is the most crucial part of the ship, if it's to be rebuilt. And it's still intact, so he can rebuild the ship faster without having to try to form a new one from scratch (likely impossible in Japan at this time, and not a part of John's skillset).
“We’ve been had”
*Smiles* welcome to the club
Haha...remember in episode 3 when Toranaga escaped from Osaka castle by hiding in the palaquin and Yabushige said something like, "One of these days I'd like to know about your plan before it happens." Yagushige finally got his wish...just before getting his head cut off.
I saw that somebody had put up on other reaction video that in that last scene when they show Lord Toranaga just before Shogun comes up for the end of the show that they say in his left hand he is holding the crucifix from Mariko. I am not sure if this is true, but he is holding something. Thank you for your wonderful reactions. Have a lovely weekend.
Apparently it's a part of his clothing. Someone on reddit said its a sleeve tie of some kind
No he doesn't leave Japan...due to being in a Lite Coma State that was him just having a Lucid Dream of him having made it back to England...but nope it was nothing more than it being just a dream...Japan is his forever home now
Anjin never returned to England because the real life Anjin, William Adams, never returned to England. An English captain, Saris, did come to Japan 13 years later and offered him a ride home. Anjin did get permission to leave by then but he backed out at the last minute and historians believed it was because he didn't like Saris. He still had family in England and his wife actually died the same year he did, which was 1620.
In the show, he does die in Japan. The scene where he is in England as a dying old man is from a dream, hence the title "A dream of a dream". If you watched the entire thing, you'd realise that John still had Mariko's necklace in the scene where he was old whereas he dropped it in the water towards the end of the episode, making that dying old man scene basically impossible
@@youness4247 Uh... I think maybe you need to read what I typed again. I never said the irl Anjin returned to England either. In fact, I said the opposite.
They spread the ashes in the same place in Canada where the author of the book had his spread. Pretty beautiful ❤
21:30 You pointed out something that described Toranaga to a 'T' when you mentioned that it "Wasn't the right time". Toranaga was big into this idea of being patient. There was a quote from the book that I wished could've showed up in the mini-series and it might at some point in the future now that Seasons 2 and 3 have been green-lit. Quote goes something like this:
"The strong are the patient ones, Anjin-san. patience means holding back your inclination to the seven emotions: hate, adoration, joy, anxiety, anger, grief, fear. If you don't give way to the seven, you're patient, then you'll soon understand all manner of things and be in harmony with Eternity."
wasn't a flash/back/fw, it was a dream, and he was in bed having dreams, a dream inside a dream and he said "f**k it" to that dream when he decided to take his life in mariko's fashion
Actually, lady Ochiba had every right to fear Toranaga. In real life Yodo no kata (Ochiba no kata was based on her) and her son were both killed by Tokugawa Ieasu (on whom Toranag was based).
BTW, Hosokawa Gracia, the person Mariko is based on, real death poem was:
Because they fall
Flowers are Flowers
And
People are People
Smartpants spreading spoilers like there is no tomorrow. Shamefur dispray.
Now we know why Toranaga was so feared by all.
Ishido-sama best reagent.
Ladies so enjoyed your reactions! I want you to know in the book Fuji dies but in the original tv mini series she changed her mind and stayed with John!
In the novel Shogun, John Blackthorne never left Japan. And the characters in the novel were based on real historical events with the names changed. The real historical Anjin whose name was William Adams also never left Japan and became an advisor to Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga in the novel and miniseries). The flash forward of an old Blackthorne was all in John's mind as "a dream of a dream" like the title suggests of John imagining his life as it would be like if he returned home to England,
good news, shogun is probably getting an extra season,maybe two.
There is so much history of the real life Blackthorne and Toronaga (William Adams and Tokugawa Ieyasu) that could be adapted.
Imagine the possible following season Toronaga becomes the main antagonist.
Where Tokugawa shogunate buries Ishida alive, forces the death of the heir and Lady Chacha, crucifying christians, and enforcing rule of Japan with him and his successors basically being dictators.
As good as that sounds, i think they should just leave this one alone. The novel writer was a westerner deep into Japanese history. I am afraid the new writers will just create shallow story lines just to drag it into multiple seasons
Warrior Nun Fuji for the win!
Even with history as reference, we've seen what happens when we get past the literary source material. It's not good. They should do Taipan based in another country on another story by the author. However I guess the acclaim, money and taking advantage of an already assembled cast/ crew/ storyline was too much to pass up for the channel overlords. Pray they don't ruin it.
Even though I've watched this show 3times alone, I'm so happy watching it with you and crying again along with you😭😭😭
Big thanks to Haylo & Kiss
In this episode Toranaga tells Yabushige “Why tell the future to a dead man.”
If you recall, way back in the first episode, that is the exact line that Yabushige said to his nephew when asked if they should tell Toranaga about Johns ship.
Which implies Yabushiges nephew also had a 3rd heart and worked for Toranaga from the very beginning.
The Reason for it all is even when He had turned down request of the Role of Shogun on the Shoguns deathbed...even if time went by and he changed his mind to fulfil said request it was still a Personal known Deathbed decree for him in being the Shogun and look after and teach the young ruler until he comes of perfect age to take over and with all said actions that had been done to do so would be justified and right....also who is to say that everything that has happened was actually a Teaching Lesson for the "Young Future Ruler of the Late Shogun" 🤔🤔
Torunaga releasing the Falcon was his own way of setting Mariko free. When you listen to him describe the falcon in episode 1, he's clearly describing his plans for Mariko. He also talks about all the other 'pawns' he makes use of as hawks and easily controllable.
13:25 Recall In Ep5 "broken to the fist" - After the incident of the drunken night with Fuji, Buntaro and in the following morning John and Mariko was having that heated conversation:
John: "my life is mine & yours is yours" (and that if she can't see past that she'll never be free of that prison)
Marikko: "it is you that is imprisoned" (If freedom is what he lived for, he shall never be free of himself)
In the finale here, John finally understood the basis of his idea logy does not work in his present situation, those are just ideals (the flashback to a dream) in that moment he came to the realization that Mariko's words: "we live & we die, and control nothing beyond that"
He decides to commit seppuku, thus killing those dreams. He was stopped at the very last moment by his liege.
That is the New John finding new purpose after that, breaking that prison he has encapsulated himself in.
This show is so layered and the depth so intricate it warrants many re-watches. A true masterpiece!
Toranaga been playing chess while everyone else was playing checkers .
For a mere second, Toronaga shows his true third face, so horrifically beautiful. Shogun was just picked up for 2 more seasons. I kinda hope it becomes a anthology series, where each season is of different era's.
Yabushige's place in the Council *once* Ishido deals with the Christian Regents next (Kiyama and Ohno).
Toranaga letting go of his falcon is his mourning of Mariko's loss (his peregrine falcon compared to the "hawks" named Yabushige and Anjin)
He never left Japan John. That was John’s dream for when he leaves Japan he’ll be rich. Also toranaga wanted always to be the shogun and he planned everything from the early beginning.
Well apparently FX/Hulu has convinced the producers to make another season, and possibly 3. No idea what it will cover. The novel did draw inspiration from actual history, so there is plenty of material to inspire a new show. If they make it a prequel, we could still see some of our favourite characters. But if it's a sequel, we'll have to see if they can create equally compelling characters as the ones we lost here.
I wonder if you would consider covering the original miniseries from 1980. It might be interesting to compare and contrast
We found out that Muraji had been planted in Ajiro the fishing village years earlier to act as a spy for Toranaga...but Toranaga couldn't have anticipated that a European ship would one day crash ashore in Ajiro. So, Muraji just happened to end up being useful to Toranaga. It makes me wonder just how many spied did Toranaga have planted all around the country just in case they might one day be useful?
Also, in the last exchange between Toranaga and Yabushige, Toranaga told him "Why tell a dead man the future?" which is what Yabushige told Omi all the way back in the first episode. But how could Toranaga have know that? I don't think Muraji was within earshot when Yabushige said that. Toranaga must have had another spy - maybe Omi himself?
I know what you mean. Actually, It is said that Tokugawa Ieyasu used the most spies in Japanese history. But nobody knows how many spies he had used though. I think it's probably an uncountable number of people.
It is my sincere wish that they do not try to make a season 2. They did a good thing (despite missing stuff I would have thought important to the story) with the source material, but I don't need them to try to go beyond the original novel.
There are two characters who saw through Toranaga's true nature: Ochiba no Kata and the madam of the brothel. I'm male, but I appreciate the fact that the two smartest characters in the story are both women.
I think it's because as ambitious women they had to keep their motives hidden under a facade and they recognize when someone else is doing it.
We've Been Tricked, We've Been Backstabbed and We've Been Quite Possibly, Bamboozled
Great reaction series as always. I'd like to share here one of the beautiful passages from the book:
"Many times Blackthorne had looked over his shoulder expecting her there, but she was never there and never would be and this did not disturb him. She was with him forever, and he knew he would love her in the good times and in the tragic times, even in the winter of his life. She was always on the edge of his dreams." - Shogun, by James Clavell
Toranaga WAS power hungry, and certainly not totally morally good, but his complexity is such that you cannot say that he wasn’t honest about what he was after. He DOES want to bring peace. He DOES want the wars to stop. He wants to use the power he seeks to achieve that. His ruthlessness and cunning never reached the level of pettiness or needlessness that his rivals showed. He’s a true tactician.
So glad this series is getting a bit of a continuation
可愛いお二人が的確にリアクションして下さって嬉しかったです
ありがとうございました😊
日本より
The sad part is that both Ochiba and the Heir must die in order to achieve real peace.
ジェームス・クラベル(James・Clavell)1924-1994、小説家、脚本家、映画監督。
It's even more of a reveal in the book, I think Toranaga finally admits it on the last page after denying it all the way through.
Him dropping the necklace pretty good indicator that the "flashback dream" was just a dream, since he had the necklace there. (he couldn't cos dropped it). Enjoyed watching these reactions, was a good journey :)
With the "have many daughters" is also related to a mention that "the best hunters for that birds are females". On a secondary topic, the battle WILL have place. In the battle indeed Ochiba protected her child and the heir was not on the battlefield. Few commanders changed sides in the battle and Toranaga won. In the end he end up killing most of them anyway, including Ochiba and the heir. But indeed he was 20 steps ahead of everyone.
"heir" (damn spellcheckers)
@@alanfoster6589 10x
After that scene of final talk between Yabushige and Toranaga, all I can think of was....Man..Toranaga is the scariest of them all! Love it!
13:57 No, that's his retainer
Yup. Toranaga is diabolical.
In fact we HAVE a 2nd season ladies !! :)
They are in negotiations to make a second and third season, so the ride might not be over yet!
It was just announced yesterday that they are working with the estate of James Clavell, the author of the book, to develop two more series! How exciting!
I have really enjoyed rewatching this series with you guys. What an amazing experience.
Enjoyed watching this series with you guys! Clink clink. ❤
If you liked the actor who portrayed Toranaga, he has done many samurai films. He was really exceptional in a movie called "Twilight Samurai" it is based at the beginning of the Meiji Restoration (the shogunate was dissolved and the Emperor was restored Meiji), the period after Tokugawa which is where Shogun is loosely based upon. Others might point you to the Tom Cruise film "Last Samurai" (Hiroyuji Sanada is also in this film so you might be interested) though this too is loosely based on real life characters around the Meiji Restoration and the Satsuma Rebellion. The first is more to the taste of melancholy and tragedy from Japan, and the Hollywood movie is more adventure with some historical notes. Hopefully you realize that the first part of the episode it was a "dream of a dream".
Yes! Final episode... being following you since ep 1.
Great catch on the secret heart. We all thought we were routing for “the good guy”. Turns out he’s just another player in the game for power.
He's both, he wanted power, but not for greed, rather his vision of a peaceful Japan, which worked. Japan had over two centuries of peace and cultural prosperity.
8:25 "woahh! Someone sawwww" thats literally how Yabushige groans in the whole show 😂
Toranaga's purpose is peaceful world without war. 🏯
Many tourists are now coming to Edo, which he built. 🏯🏘🏘
「Welcome to the peaceful world of Tokyo !」🏯🏢🏢
Thank you ladies.