Well g'day Max, insomnia strikes so here we are, I'll go make a brew and settle in with you, whilst the sun comes up mate, DSG is without exception my favourite and most sought after lathe ever, lovely to see you giving the old girl the Max treatment 🎉
Hi Chuck . Level is not a concern for an initial inspection at this stage . However it will be levelled soon , so it has time to settle if required before i touch the bed . Maybe next video . Cheers 👍
I've commented before on your Triumph hat - I love it. A prized possession of mine is an original (and preserved) "BSA GoldStar" tee shirt a dear friend gave me back in the late 60s (I was racing a 441 Victor then).
What the he double matchsticks, Max? I just bought the same exact boring head and was going to show it in a future video. I've had it for about 4 weeks, but you beat me to the punch. Mine came in a plastic box.
I have used lathes with box or flat ways. One thing that happens with the carriage is yaw or when reversing direction the carriage does a slight twist because of the needed clearance for movement plus have an oil film, usually about .002" needed. The yaw or twist can be handled by starting the carriage a short distance ahead of the work and it settles out before cutting, the same with the dovetailed Hardinge. The wear you have is normal on the tailstock ways as the base has to have about .002" clearance to be able to move it too, the best practice is to move it with both hands instead of causing more wear dragging it along the bed by its handwheel making the tail center point toward the rear of the lathe and down from doing that. So the tailstock is best set in place and pushed toward the rear when locking down to prevent twist from the needed clearance. My first experience with box ways was on the Atlas bench lathe then on a heavy turret lathe. The flat ways is said to have better vibration dampening from the wide contact with the carriage. I will stay tuned!
Hi Don . Their is 5 thou on the unworn areas of the bed , a tad too much . I have done a fair bit of time on Box way machines , Ward No 7 turret lathes and a large Lang flat bed lathe . Made in Scotland i think it was . I agree with you about moving the tailstock with both hands , that is a big heavy one on your Axelson ! Cheers .
Hey thanks for the channel mention! Really appreciate it - and - yes indeed those repairs are doing my head in a bit. Cheers! I will be following this resto with significant interest - I have great respect for anyone who can resurrect a machine that has been neglected for so long. Funny as you were measuring everything I started thinking about how a toolpost grinder or similar could be put on a sled to make the job go a bit quicker - solid idea I reckon. Cheers again Max, all the best.
The very best machines in the world in my humble opinion. You can't do anything better than to commit all of your time repairing this beauty and then putting it through its paces. I know this is just a pipe dream of mine but hey ho. Your videos are relaxing and knowledgeable. Keep making them and I'll keep watching 😂
Wonderful video and information Max. Dean, Smith, & Grace to my mind was the greatest lathe builder that ever existed. They were meticulous in every single aspect of their company down to the bespoke work clothing tailored to each man and the custom engraved silver flatware in the mess hall. If I could do one single apprenticeship throughout history it would be at DS&G. You are honoring the soul of their company with the way you are bringing this beautiful machine back. Honestly for its age and likelihood that it was used for a very long hard life the wear isn’t that bad. Keep it up I’ll be very excited to see your progress!
Certainly plausible on lathe bed upper surfaces being machined independent off underside, i would have expected a lot more wear near the chuck for 80 years young. Quick check is to use a large precision square on the bed, and indicate the vertical face from the spindle face using a magnetic base and DTI @ 12 & 6 O'clock. Standard machine build checks. Obviously bed flatness has been measured with precision level, and/or use method below. For bed straightness (horizontal)you can use fishing line taut at an arbitrary gap, on say 25mm slip block gauges, then measure gap along bed using slip blocks and magnifying glass, easy to measure with 20 micron. A better method is using same set up and measuring microscope with suitable measuring sights. Looking forward to the reassurection on this Max, I was honoured to work on a brand new DSG as an apprentice alongside a machinist, circa 1980/81. Modern modular design, head stock was as tall as me , I do remember DSG coming in to repair a spindle or headstock bearing, typical bearing slip squeal. There is a possibility it was only DSG badged, white in colour?. Hope you've got plenty of scraper elbow lubrication 😂😮.
Oh boy, Max, I sure hope they didn’t plane that bed cockied. 0.007” is a heck of a lot to get rid of over that width and length, even being a gradual taper. You’re not planning on scraping all of that off, are you? It might be a lot easier to make a jig with some sandpaper on the bottom and get rid of most of it that way first. I’ve done that and it works well. I good jig will keep everything square.
Hi max. I was just thinking while it's a massive machine would it wear more in the way you describe up close to the headstock if it was doing short work on a poorly aligned leveled base? Where is used to work the long bed 20' would change shape at high water time, I KID YOU NOT! the workshops were alongside the river and it was found that the river wall was letting water under. finally the breaches were dealt with as the workshops closed. Keep going I like your series of breathing new life into older machines.
The first lathe I used as an apprentice in the coal mine surface shop was a ds&g. During my time, it was sent out for bed scraping and rebuild. While it was gone, I had to do some clever things on the Lagan milling machine. This was 1980’s in South Africa.
A fine piece of British iron that Max. DSG were only a couple of miles from where I live. There are some horror stories of them burning the wooden casting patterns on bonfires when the factory shut. Good ones still turn up here at a very spicy price. I think everyone is hoping to find the mythical 17" toolroom machine with the extra plain bearing in the headstock.
Hey Max, great content. Very useful for anyone tackling a lathe bed restoration. Some good techniques. I was thinking what you said about a possible use for the old girl during the war, and was thinking that they may have used the bed ways for material staging. You know, stacking pre machined materials, or possibly post machined materials. That may account for some of the funky wear readings you were getting. I'm looking forward to this "series". Right up my alley. Just the kind of thing that grabs my attention. I'm sure I am not the only one either. Getting a bit of rain eh? Wish we could get some of that my way! Been quite toasty here, with some elevated humidity that we only see around here during monsoon season when we get some weather from the south out of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez. Ocean temps in the Pacific are well on the rise and the Gulf of Mexico is boiling. Sea life is takimg a beating. It's really sad. But your content always cheers me up. Keep it up, and stay safe. I envy you and your machining sanctuary! Just have to experience it vicariously. It's enough. Thanks Brother! P. S. - We got some rain last night!!
Cheers Eric . The sanding rolls will get a workout on this machine , with the long list of repairs that have to be carried out . A fair bit of broken cast iron items to repair as well . Cheers 👍
I would bet my two bits that the wear is where that machine probably did most of its production back in the day. And then you basically said the same thing, about possibly just cranking out shells, makes sense to me. I really appreciate you bringing us along, showing us how it can be done. I doubt I will ever get the chance to work on a lathe, but the procedure is applicable elsewhere. Thanks, Max.
G'day Max. The amount of meticulous checking you have had to go through on the flat bed of your lathe. Things that Mr Average would not have thought about. Well done
Looking forward to the restoration of all your machines. I don't mind what order you do them in, but I have to admit that any on the DS&G will be my favourites :)
Max, why screaping the tailstockways, when you put a new plate unther the tailstock that fits the unwear area, the tailstock is in his original place and in center.
Not hardened . Most flat bed stuff , they get away with no hardening i think because the width provides a big bearing area . The main ways are 3 1/2'' and 4'' wide and just over 7 inches wide on my HBM . 👍
Max, thinking outside the box, could you fab up a mount for a toolpost grinder mounted to the existing carriage. Using the rear primary reference surface as a guide, slide the carriage along to remove the bulk of the 0.003 from the front face?
Hi Max.I had a thought do you think the bottom of the machined surface where the rack bolts to the bed, that surface should but true to the top of bed ways as well. What do you think? Cheers
Hi Max, I enjoy all of your machine restorations but you have already indicated a special bond with the DSG. I’m so glad you rescued it from a near death experience. And am looking forward to it’s rehabilitation.
Oooo POWER HACKSAW!!! Not saying that the lathe isn’t of interest and not follow along, but powered hacksaws are my guilty pleasure little pleasure .. 😁
I'm really enjoying the detail and though process of evaluating the bed-way condition. The design of the casting and the box ways just screams quality..what a beautiful machine. Thanks for sharing Max ! Cheers.....
What's your address? Have had my eye on a boring and facing head but they are soooo expensive. You have had the new one long enough now, I will come and make you shed a bit lighter and take care of it from now on. But that would be a low act, so it's yours. However, if you find another at the same price, please make me first cab off the rank. Bob - supposedly retired mechanic/machinist on the Eastern Seaboard of Land Down Under.
No DSG is beyond repair, even a very early girl like this! 😊👍 I think your "Guilding the Lilly" on this one re: bed titivation - concentrate on the head(hopefully she's plain bearing) and the saddle/apron clearances - AND the linear accuracy of the bed, as your only measuring the relative dimension of ways transversly - Always start from the basics esspecially if that bed's been lying out in the Aussie sun and badly supported(no amount of casting ageing can compensate for that abuse). BTW I believe the alignment and centering of the tailstocks on the older DSGs is achieved by the BOTTOM clamp plate and not as per most modern prismatic beds being the tailstock base/bed plate....ie the base plate floats as opposed to the clamp plate. 👍
Fascinating video Max, I like your methodology. Also look forward to seeing that boring/facing head in action. I would love to know how it compares to a European head. Chhers.
What was the reference surface for your vertical measurements? It seemed like the back box way, but as the carriage runs on the front and back ways, they could both be worn. Perhaps the box ways are so broad - hence have a large bearing surface area - that you expect little vertical wear compared with say a V-way.
Nothing runs on the side of the rear way . The ways are all the same height , 7 thou wear i would have picked up on . Something has been machined out of wack . 👍
Hello Max. I think your thought that the bed may have been remachined and not set up properly has some weight. You seem to have no wear on the underside of the front shear and I wouldn't expect much there as the normal loading on the front shear is down, not up. I guess we will have to wait for a spindle alignment to top of bed shear check to confirm. I bought Conelly's book on machine rebuilding. After reading it I have much respect for people who can rebuild a worn out machine to as new tolerances with a scraper and a few reference tools. There is a lot going on in a seemingly simple set of ways. Ken
Cheers Ken . This machine , i would like to get it as good as i possibly can . Even though it's max rpm is 420 , that will still cover a lot of work for that size machine . I might be able to increase that to 500 or 550 with no problems hopefully . Cheers👍
Hi Max. Great video as usual. Q1. On a lathe that big is that 001" worth bothering about too much ? I have used big lathes that I reckon had more wear than that and they still put out good work. Q2. Would it be best to reassemble the lathe and put a cut on a long piece of stock to see what is actually going on ? The general advise given to people asking questions in the forums about restoring an old junker they bought is " put a cut on something before you pull it all to bits so you have a starting reference". Looking forward to the next episode. ATB regards from the UK
The lathe was partially in bits , as you see it now . The reason i do not want to power it up is the spindle has plain bearings & they need a proper clean & inspection first due to the machine sitting outside for several years . Yes , a few thou wear on a machine is no dramas but i want this one as good as i can get it . Cheers . 👍
G'day Max. Great video showing the correct way to assess wear on a lathe, I will use it to check my Myford 7, a slightly easier job than your DS&G! Was that one of Magnus's hand scrapers I saw in the opening shots? Ken
Thanks . No , the scraper was made by Mathew Look in the UK . He has a great series rebuilding a Holbrook lathe a couple of years back . Look Creations is his channel . 👍
Hi Max, fascinated by this. I have no idea what I am asking, but my brain says, how would it be measured long way's. I am thinking it would be done by using a straight edge a minimum of twice the length of the saddle, and keeping the saddle to the rear with the indicator mounted well forward. Just my strange thoughts on this.
Hi Max, Looks to me like someone has re-machined the tops of the slides without regard to the undersides. They might have done this so as to take the minimum of the top side as opposed to doing it right. I would suggest that they were only bothered with the front part of the bed ( depending on what they were primarily machining), as you suggested it could have been one component for most of its early life. Anyhoo, looking forward to seeing how you proceed with this build. Best wishes, Mal.
Max, as it seems that the previous work done on the machine has been on short material with the wear up close to the headstock, now the question you have to ask yourself is, do I plan on working mostly on short material close to the headstock, or on longer shafts where the tailstock would be in the unworn areas. Unless you are going to be working in .0001 of a millimeter you should be able to get away with not doing anything to the rails, the tailstock is where you should be concentrating. The question I have of the original owners is, if you were going to be working short material, why the hell did you buy a long bed lathe in the first place.
Hey max, just a thought on how to grind those faces, how about using a router with a small grinding wheel? Ive actually got a couple tiny wheels i could send you to use.
I spent 2 1/2 years scraping in the evening to get 14 thousands of wear out of the bed of my 1957 DSG 13 x30. It’s a slow process but rewarding. I will be following your repairs!
It is in both , but one worn area in the rear way , close to the chuck . Determined by the measurements that i took . Tailstock front way has no wear worth worrying about .👍
What are the chances that someone did re-machine the top surfaces of the ways and stuffed the job up with 7 thou variation - and that's why it was left in the scrap heap out in the rain?
The railway workshops where the machine came from closed down many years ago . It had a tarp over it . Still a bit of investigation to be done , but the machine was rescued by a previous owner . He would have known the full story , but unfortunately he is no longer in the land of the living . 👍
Great explanation on what has to be done to bring this beauty back to her prime. Its really gratifying to see something that what basically left to rot being given a bit of tender loving care and being a useful piece of machinery once again. Well done , looking forward to the next updates. Take care 👍👍
I have a very old DS&G catalogue which has the 4BN within its pages (plus even older designs) which lists the Patent number 321242 as associated with the 4BN, which when you look up the date thereof is from 1929. I think that the "4" range of lathes goes all the way through to very late 1940's when the next range was produced. It's seems to have relatively little wear in the bed for a machine of its age.
Also if the bed had been re ground/ machined at some point provision must have been made under the saddle to bring it back up to the correct height so the feed shafts in the apron would run without binding, so if there is nothing non factory on the saddle underside then it likely hasn't been touched. Definitely you could check the bed alignment by taking the headstock off the bed and checking the alignment of its mounting surface relative to the rest of the bed, as all those would have been planed in the same set up and I doubt a rebuild effort would have messed with the under the headstock section. Not that removing the headstock is something you'd want to do.
Thanks for the year info . The worry is that at the railway workshops , the whole machine would fit on the large plainer with the headstock intact and they cleaned up the top of the ways with the machine not level . Further inspection required ! Cheers👍
Hi Max, to confirm if she has been machined on the piss is to check the spindle axis to shears We had 2 flat bed lathes in our machine shop, a Macson and Ward Haggis, both wartime machines. Used exclusively for machining large flanges, both flogged out near the headstock, they ended up at Krastontien scrap yard.
I have checked spindle to ways on my 10" Logan by mounting a good parallel on the spindle (so it can be tweeked into parallel w/ axis), indicating one side in, then rotating spindle 180 & check with indicator, then remove half the error (repeating to get really close) - then face of parallel should be parallel with spindle.. I was able to adjust the twist of the bed to take out the taper of a part held w/o tailstock. This may allow you to check things without test cuts, & power feed etc in place.. Wonder how easy this will be to measure w/ a thou or two of clearance in the spindle journals - although would this make it slightly less critical as well, as a slight error, once you test the lathe, could possibly be adjusted in the spindle journals? Also was thinking, re wear on bottom, maybe over-enthusiastic use of carriage stop clamp, or too much keeper tension to keep things from jumping around.. but sounds like there wasn't visible evidence of that much wear... Great to see you giving the DSG a new chance in life! Thanks!
Can not test the spindle axis until last . Probably require a 3 or 4metre length of thick hollow bar as it would balance the spindle if gripped half way down it's length & take a cut down it . 👍
@@swanvalleymachineshop Dear Max, Since you’ve revealed the significant and intact nicely parallel and flat way surfaces on the great old DSG bed ….could you improvise an accurate sled to carry a spindle grinder/ tool post style grinder to lightly true up some of the way surfaces to minimise your scraping ?
Make a guide plate to bolt to the bottom of the tail stock that rides on the unworn bottom half of the box ways. No scraping of the ways or shims/turcite on the tail stock... Just my two cents.
To be clear, I'm not saying to not scrape the top of the box ways to eliminate your 7 thou taper, I'm saying to not scrape the inner sides of the ways where the tail stock rides. I would say it's time for a power scraper (renzetti style?) to "plane off" the top of the ways back into alignment with the spindle and stop the bottom gib from binding.
I can't speak for Max, but I am imagining that turcite is something he probably would not use, despite it performing well in certain applications. It is a band aid that more likely than not will devalue the machine. I am not a machinist, but it seems to me that turcite is for folks that have neither the time, patience or experience to get into what I imagine many older machinists would call proper machine restoration. While I have not followed Max for many years, the time I have watched him work, I have come to the conclusion that Max is what I would call a master machinist. Someone who has no need for turcite, nor would consider using it. Now if he was in business to restore and sell restored machines and that is all he did, then maybe, and that's kinda a big maybe, he might use turcite. But I could be wrong, I don't know him personally although I have been able to exchange an email or 2. I just get the feeling that using a method like that would not sit well with him. But there is no doubt that it's a time and energy saver and can work well in certain circumstances. I'm sure your suggestion is something he is aware of, as he watches a lot of other machining channels on UA-cam unless I'm mistaken. Have you had good success using turcite? Just curious. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter use it to level up his milling machine base, and to get some more height on the machine, but I've not really seen anyone use it on lathe bedways yet. I'm sure it can work ok if done right. Anyways, cheers mate!
@@ericpatterson3887 Keith Rucker ( Vintage Machinery .Org) used Turcite on his horizontal boring machine rebuild earlier this year including scraping it in as well. Now he's a very knowledgable machinist and machine rebuilder. I don't think Keith would use the Turcite if it were of doubtful worth.
@@ericpatterson3887 "Turcite B is a low friction linear bearing strip for use primarily on the ways and gibs of machine tools. It provides low friction stick-slip free operation, long life and minimum wear". It has applications in high quality and high precision machines. I have seen it used in surface grinder ways for example. I did not mean to imply it was not a perfectly acceptable solution for use to "widen" the foot of the tail stock on the vertical ways *if Max chose to scrape them into alignment*. He could then machine the tailstock base back parallel (with the tailstock quill) and add a strip of Turcite to act like a shim. Since the vertical sides of the tailstock base are only for alignment of the tailstock, and since the tailstock is firmly clamped to the horizontal ways during use, the Turcite would have no effect on rigidity and would also prevent future wear of the bed's way. What Stefan Gotteswinter used on the column of his mill was a powdered metal epoxy filler, also perfectly acceptable in his use case. I'm not knocking anyone, to be clear. I recommended a guide plate 'addition' to the bottom of the tail stock base to make use of the original unworn area of the vertical surface of the ways simply to avoid all the work and difficulty of having to scrape the vertical surface of the bed way in situ. I might also recommend then using that guide plate together with the tailstock base as a mount for a way grinder, if he chooses to go that route, for machining the front boxed way's vertical sides. I have Biax power scrapers, electronic precision levels, an autocollimator, and poor judgement LoL... I could spend weeks and weeks making surface plate flat and true ways. And though I haven't used it yet, yes I do have a stash of Turcite B, for making Robin Renzetti's rotating mirror and sled, for calibrating surface plates of which I have several large ones :)
@@samrodian919 Yes, I have watched Keith's channel for a while now too, and you might note what I said in my comment that if Max was restoring machines to sell (or as a service to others), then he might use turcite to restore some machines. Keith is not a career machinist if I am not mistaken, so while he is quite experienced with a wealth of knowledge, I do not believe that he started as a young man as a machinist, I could be wrong though. I do know Max started as a machinist as a young man and has a lifetime of experience, with a good portion of that time working with heavy equipment, which as a lifetime heavy machine operator, I can tell you that machining for heavy equipment requires a level of accuracy and production (getting the job done because down time on heavy machinery is very expensive) that the average machinist does not experience (Curtis from Cutting Edge Machining is a good example of what that type of machining is like, except that it was quite different when Max was younger, things have changed a great deal in that area in the last 40-50 years). In my opinion these two machinists are quite different from each other and it is apparent when watching them work. I did not say turcite is a wrong choice, and I pointed out that I can't speak for Max. But I have a distinct feeling that Max would reject turcite as a solution in all except the most extreme circumstances. And given such circumstances, Max probably would not bother with a machine restoration on a machine in need of extreme measures. Again, I can't say definitively. Ask him yourself if you've a mind to, he usually spends time replying to comments in each video. I think I can say definitively that a machine with a turcite repair will have less value than one that does not, but I am certainly no expert. Keith is a very different machinist than Max. Keith has experience in the farming sector and some steam locomotion and rail industry if I'm not mistaken. All those industries do not require a great deal of precision and much different techniques. Keith seems to do his work as more like a hobby, a very involved hobby, but a hobby none the less. Both are good machinists, but are very different type of machinists. From what I understand about turcite, it is a plastic based material soooo....... Nough said. I apologize for the long winded comment.
I think, therein lies the reason it was sitting on the scrap pile; the owner didn't want to spend the time or expertise/coin to repair the old girl. Love watching you work and think it out. Thanks!
Well g'day Max, insomnia strikes so here we are, I'll go make a brew and settle in with you, whilst the sun comes up mate, DSG is without exception my favourite and most sought after lathe ever, lovely to see you giving the old girl the Max treatment 🎉
Cheers Ralfy . 👍
Enjoyed…curious, did you level the lathe prior to measuring? Would bed twist be a concern?
Hi Chuck . Level is not a concern for an initial inspection at this stage . However it will be levelled soon , so it has time to settle if required before i touch the bed . Maybe next video . Cheers 👍
I've commented before on your Triumph hat - I love it. A prized possession of mine is an original (and preserved) "BSA GoldStar" tee shirt a dear friend gave me back in the late 60s (I was racing a 441 Victor then).
Thanks . Dad gave me the hat when i was about 20 & had a triumph ! Cheers 👍
What the he double matchsticks, Max? I just bought the same exact boring head and was going to show it in a future video. I've had it for about 4 weeks, but you beat me to the punch. Mine came in a plastic box.
Lol , I was lucky to find this one ! Cheers 👍
I have used lathes with box or flat ways. One thing that happens with the carriage is yaw or when reversing direction the carriage does a slight twist because of the needed clearance for movement plus have an oil film, usually about .002" needed. The yaw or twist can be handled by starting the carriage a short distance ahead of the work and it settles out before cutting, the same with the dovetailed Hardinge. The wear you have is normal on the tailstock ways as the base has to have about .002" clearance to be able to move it too, the best practice is to move it with both hands instead of causing more wear dragging it along the bed by its handwheel making the tail center point toward the rear of the lathe and down from doing that. So the tailstock is best set in place and pushed toward the rear when locking down to prevent twist from the needed clearance. My first experience with box ways was on the Atlas bench lathe then on a heavy turret lathe. The flat ways is said to have better vibration dampening from the wide contact with the carriage. I will stay tuned!
Very nicely explained sir and it makes perfect sense.
Hi Don . Their is 5 thou on the unworn areas of the bed , a tad too much . I have done a fair bit of time on Box way machines , Ward No 7 turret lathes and a large Lang flat bed lathe . Made in Scotland i think it was . I agree with you about moving the tailstock with both hands , that is a big heavy one on your Axelson ! Cheers .
Hey thanks for the channel mention! Really appreciate it - and - yes indeed those repairs are doing my head in a bit. Cheers! I will be following this resto with significant interest - I have great respect for anyone who can resurrect a machine that has been neglected for so long. Funny as you were measuring everything I started thinking about how a toolpost grinder or similar could be put on a sled to make the job go a bit quicker - solid idea I reckon. Cheers again Max, all the best.
Thanks . I will be putting something on a sled , not sure yet as i want to be able to use it on the HBM as well . Cheers 👍
The very best machines in the world in my humble opinion. You can't do anything better than to commit all of your time repairing this beauty and then putting it through its paces.
I know this is just a pipe dream of mine but hey ho.
Your videos are relaxing and knowledgeable. Keep making them and I'll keep watching 😂
Thanks . I like your humble opinion ! Cheers 👍
Wonderful video and information Max. Dean, Smith, & Grace to my mind was the greatest lathe builder that ever existed. They were meticulous in every single aspect of their company down to the bespoke work clothing tailored to each man and the custom engraved silver flatware in the mess hall. If I could do one single apprenticeship throughout history it would be at DS&G. You are honoring the soul of their company with the way you are bringing this beautiful machine back.
Honestly for its age and likelihood that it was used for a very long hard life the wear isn’t that bad. Keep it up I’ll be very excited to see your progress!
Thanks . 👍👍👍
Hey Max, you have some beautiful machines there - I can't wait to see that power hacksaw running! Love watching you work.
Thanks 👍
Certainly plausible on lathe bed upper surfaces being machined independent off underside, i would have expected a lot more wear near the chuck for 80 years young.
Quick check is to use a large precision square on the bed, and indicate the vertical face from the spindle face using a magnetic base and DTI @ 12 & 6 O'clock. Standard machine build checks.
Obviously bed flatness has been measured with precision level, and/or use method below.
For bed straightness (horizontal)you can use fishing line taut at an arbitrary gap, on say 25mm slip block gauges, then measure gap along bed using slip blocks and magnifying glass, easy to measure with 20 micron. A better method is using same set up and measuring microscope with suitable measuring sights.
Looking forward to the reassurection on this Max, I was honoured to work on a brand new DSG as an apprentice alongside a machinist, circa 1980/81. Modern modular design, head stock was as tall as me , I do remember DSG coming in to repair a spindle or headstock bearing, typical bearing slip squeal. There is a possibility it was only DSG badged, white in colour?.
Hope you've got plenty of scraper elbow lubrication 😂😮.
Cheers 👍
Max. The DSG is a babe❤, there’s nothing she can’t do. Build quality is far superior than the shit produced today. 👍🏴
Too true ! 👍
Oh boy, Max, I sure hope they didn’t plane that bed cockied. 0.007” is a heck of a lot to get rid of over that width and length, even being a gradual taper. You’re not planning on scraping all of that off, are you? It might be a lot easier to make a jig with some sandpaper on the bottom and get rid of most of it that way first. I’ve done that and it works well. I good jig will keep everything square.
I hope they did not machine it cocked as well . I will be doing further investigations . Cheers 👍
Hi max. I was just thinking while it's a massive machine would it wear more in the way you describe up close to the headstock if it was doing short work on a poorly aligned leveled base?
Where is used to work the long bed 20' would change shape at high water time, I KID YOU NOT! the workshops were alongside the river and it was found that the river wall was letting water under. finally the breaches were dealt with as the workshops closed.
Keep going I like your series of breathing new life into older machines.
Thanks . Yes it has done a lot of work close to the chuck with the tailstock . Level is a big factor with wear . Cheers 👍
The first lathe I used as an apprentice in the coal mine surface shop was a ds&g. During my time, it was sent out for bed scraping and rebuild. While it was gone, I had to do some clever things on the Lagan milling machine. This was 1980’s in South Africa.
Cheers 👍
A fine piece of British iron that Max. DSG were only a couple of miles from where I live. There are some horror stories of them burning the wooden casting patterns on bonfires when the factory shut. Good ones still turn up here at a very spicy price. I think everyone is hoping to find the mythical 17" toolroom machine with the extra plain bearing in the headstock.
Type 17T new old stock , would be the ''Dogs Bollocks '' !!! 👍
@@swanvalleymachineshop Oohhh , can you imagine "new" old stock of a 17T? Some would hide with a box of tissues.
Hey Max, great content. Very useful for anyone tackling a lathe bed restoration. Some good techniques. I was thinking what you said about a possible use for the old girl during the war, and was thinking that they may have used the bed ways for material staging. You know, stacking pre machined materials, or possibly post machined materials. That may account for some of the funky wear readings you were getting. I'm looking forward to this "series". Right up my alley. Just the kind of thing that grabs my attention. I'm sure I am not the only one either. Getting a bit of rain eh? Wish we could get some of that my way! Been quite toasty here, with some elevated humidity that we only see around here during monsoon season when we get some weather from the south out of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez. Ocean temps in the Pacific are well on the rise and the Gulf of Mexico is boiling. Sea life is takimg a beating. It's really sad. But your content always cheers me up. Keep it up, and stay safe. I envy you and your machining sanctuary! Just have to experience it vicariously. It's enough. Thanks Brother! P. S. - We got some rain last night!!
Cheers Eric . The sanding rolls will get a workout on this machine , with the long list of repairs that have to be carried out . A fair bit of broken cast iron items to repair as well . Cheers 👍
@@swanvalleymachineshop 👍🏻
I would bet my two bits that the wear is where that machine probably did most of its production back in the day.
And then you basically said the same thing, about possibly just cranking out shells, makes sense to me.
I really appreciate you bringing us along, showing us how it can be done.
I doubt I will ever get the chance to work on a lathe, but the procedure is applicable elsewhere.
Thanks, Max.
No worries 👍
G'day Max. The amount of meticulous checking you have had to go through on the flat bed of your lathe. Things that Mr Average would not have thought about. Well done
Cheers Ted . 👍
Looking forward to the restoration of all your machines. I don't mind what order you do them in, but I have to admit that any on the DS&G will be my favourites :)
Thanks 👍
Looking forward to seeing the features that gave these lathes their high reputation, in your own time, of course.
No worries 👍
Max, why screaping the tailstockways, when you put a new plate unther the tailstock that fits the unwear area, the tailstock is in his original place and in center.
I was about to say the same.
Because that would be a bodgey repair ! DSG , it will get the proper repairs it deserves ! Cheers 👍
As you mentioned it is not in too bad of shape for it's age. I am assuming the ways are not hardened correct?
Not hardened . Most flat bed stuff , they get away with no hardening i think because the width provides a big bearing area . The main ways are 3 1/2'' and 4'' wide and just over 7 inches wide on my HBM . 👍
Max, thinking outside the box, could you fab up a mount for a toolpost grinder mounted to the existing carriage. Using the rear primary reference surface as a guide, slide the carriage along to remove the bulk of the 0.003 from the front face?
Yes , i will be looking at those options . Cheers 👍
Hi Max.I had a thought do you think the bottom of the machined surface where the rack bolts to the bed, that surface should but true to the top of bed ways as well. What do you think? Cheers
That surface has to be true to the top of the bed . That is the problem at the moment , why it is so far out but no wear showing . Cheers 👍
I am looking forward to seeing inside this machine. I’ve always heard great things about them. Hopefully the bones are good. Good luck Max.
All look good for it's age inside the headstock . Cheers 👍
Well Hello young Max, yay another installment.
From kiwi land.
Cheers 👍
Hi Max, I enjoy all of your machine restorations but you have already indicated a special bond with the DSG. I’m so glad you rescued it from a near death experience. And am looking forward to it’s rehabilitation.
Thanks . Yes , we have bonded ! 👍
Oooo POWER HACKSAW!!!
Not saying that the lathe isn’t of interest and not follow along, but powered hacksaws are my guilty pleasure little pleasure .. 😁
Lol , the big Kasto will have most of my attention soon ! 👍
DSG among the finest hench lathes , even IKB would love a DSG . Look forewords to watching her make progress.
Cheers 👍
This old mollydooker sandgroper says bloody good job Max. Thankyou .
I'm really enjoying the detail and though process of evaluating the bed-way condition. The design of the casting and the box ways just screams quality..what a beautiful machine. Thanks for sharing Max !
Cheers.....
Thanks Dean . 👍
What's your address? Have had my eye on a boring and facing head but they are soooo expensive. You have had the new one long enough now, I will come and make you shed a bit lighter and take care of it from now on. But that would be a low act, so it's yours. However, if you find another at the same price, please make me first cab off the rank. Bob - supposedly retired mechanic/machinist on the Eastern Seaboard of Land Down Under.
Lol , it came from just down the road from you !!!! Cheers 👍
Great project Max, going to be a great serries on this lathe!
Thanks 👍
G'day Max, Gotta love a DSnG. Them and Yamazaki. I'm not a machinist infact I'm fully unqualified. Really enjoy the work you share. cheers, Butch
Thanks 👍
No DSG is beyond repair, even a very early girl like this! 😊👍
I think your "Guilding the Lilly" on this one re: bed titivation - concentrate on the head(hopefully she's plain bearing) and the saddle/apron clearances - AND the linear accuracy of the bed, as your only measuring the relative dimension of ways transversly - Always start from the basics esspecially if that bed's been lying out in the Aussie sun and badly supported(no amount of casting ageing can compensate for that abuse).
BTW I believe the alignment and centering of the tailstocks on the older DSGs is achieved by the BOTTOM clamp plate and not as per most modern prismatic beds being the tailstock base/bed plate....ie the base plate floats as opposed to the clamp plate.
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Cheers . A 2 metre camelback would be good to have , to check the linear accuracy .👍
Fascinating video Max, I like your methodology. Also look forward to seeing that boring/facing head in action. I would love to know how it compares to a European head. Chhers.
Thanks . The only European head i have used was a D'Andrea . 👍
What was the reference surface for your vertical measurements? It seemed like the back box way, but as the carriage runs on the front and back ways, they could both be worn. Perhaps the box ways are so broad - hence have a large bearing surface area - that you expect little vertical wear compared with say a V-way.
Nothing runs on the side of the rear way . The ways are all the same height , 7 thou wear i would have picked up on . Something has been machined out of wack . 👍
Hello Max. I think your thought that the bed may have been remachined and not set up properly has some weight. You seem to have no wear on the underside of the front shear and I wouldn't expect much there as the normal loading on the front shear is down, not up. I guess we will have to wait for a spindle alignment to top of bed shear check to confirm. I bought Conelly's book on machine rebuilding. After reading it I have much respect for people who can rebuild a worn out machine to as new tolerances with a scraper and a few reference tools. There is a lot going on in a seemingly simple set of ways. Ken
Cheers Ken . This machine , i would like to get it as good as i possibly can . Even though it's max rpm is 420 , that will still cover a lot of work for that size machine .
I might be able to increase that to 500 or 550 with no problems hopefully . Cheers👍
Hi Max. Great video as usual. Q1. On a lathe that big is that 001" worth bothering about too much ? I have used big lathes that I reckon had more wear than that and they still put out good work. Q2. Would it be best to reassemble the lathe and put a cut on a long piece of stock to see what is actually going on ? The general advise given to people asking questions in the forums about restoring an old junker they bought is " put a cut on something before you pull it all to bits so you have a starting reference".
Looking forward to the next episode. ATB regards from the UK
The lathe was partially in bits , as you see it now . The reason i do not want to power it up is the spindle has plain bearings & they need a proper clean & inspection first due to the machine sitting outside for several years . Yes , a few thou wear on a machine is no dramas but i want this one as good as i can get it . Cheers . 👍
G'day Max. Great video showing the correct way to assess wear on a lathe, I will use it to check my Myford 7, a slightly easier job than your DS&G! Was that one of Magnus's hand scrapers I saw in the opening shots? Ken
Thanks . No , the scraper was made by Mathew Look in the UK . He has a great series rebuilding a Holbrook lathe a couple of years back . Look Creations is his channel . 👍
Hi Max, fascinated by this. I have no idea what I am asking, but my brain says, how would it be measured long way's. I am thinking it would be done by using a straight edge a minimum of twice the length of the saddle, and keeping the saddle to the rear with the indicator mounted well forward. Just my strange thoughts on this.
A large calibrated straight edge would be a great help . Cheers 👍
Hi Max, Looks to me like someone has re-machined the tops of the slides without regard to the undersides. They might have done this so as to take the minimum of the top side as opposed to doing it right. I would suggest that they were only bothered with the front part of the bed ( depending on what they were primarily machining), as you suggested it could have been one component for most of its early life. Anyhoo, looking forward to seeing how you proceed with this build. Best wishes, Mal.
I am worried , in case that's exactly what they did at the Railway workshops ! Cheers 👍
DSG THE KING OF LATHES (my opinion ) nice one
I agree . Cheers 👍👍👍
Max, as it seems that the previous work done on the machine has been on short material with the wear up close to the headstock, now the question you have to ask yourself is, do I plan on working mostly on short material close to the headstock, or on longer shafts where the tailstock would be in the unworn areas. Unless you are going to be working in .0001 of a millimeter you should be able to get away with not doing anything to the rails, the tailstock is where you should be concentrating. The question I have of the original owners is, if you were going to be working short material, why the hell did you buy a long bed lathe in the first place.
Thanks . The tailstock is what will be sorted first . The one on my larger Herron lathe has wear on the vee guides & is a total pain . Cheers 👍
Cheers Max,
Sounds like you need Marcus to visit for a couple of days, his mind works on another level.
Great explanation.
Lol , that would be good ! Cheers 👍
Hey max, just a thought on how to grind those faces, how about using a router with a small grinding wheel? Ive actually got a couple tiny wheels i could send you to use.
That idea is on my mind . Cheers 👍
I spent 2 1/2 years scraping in the evening to get 14 thousands of wear out of the bed of my 1957 DSG 13 x30. It’s a slow process but rewarding. I will be following your repairs!
Thanks . That was a massive undertaking on your machine ! 👍
Yes grind of but all the questions aren't in the bag. Spindle bearing, Chinese pump out lathes like link sausages.
More questions than answers at this stage ! 👍
I’ll be following this thread Max!
How do you tell if the tailstock way wear is in the ways and not in the tailstock?
It is in both , but one worn area in the rear way , close to the chuck . Determined by the measurements that i took . Tailstock front way has no wear worth worrying about .👍
What are the chances that someone did re-machine the top surfaces of the ways and stuffed the job up with 7 thou variation - and that's why it was left in the scrap heap out in the rain?
The railway workshops where the machine came from closed down many years ago .
It had a tarp over it . Still a bit of investigation to be done , but the machine was rescued by a previous owner . He would have known the full story , but unfortunately he is no longer in the land of the living . 👍
Does the other side have a 7 thou thickness change as well? Maybe a grinder sled to fix that too.
That has a 5 thou difference . 👍
Great explanation on what has to be done to bring this beauty back to her prime. Its really gratifying to see something that what basically left to rot being given a bit of tender loving care and being a useful piece of machinery once again. Well done , looking forward to the next updates. Take care 👍👍
Cheers 👍
Thanks for sharing 👍
No worries 👍
I have a very old DS&G catalogue which has the 4BN within its pages (plus even older designs) which lists the Patent number 321242 as associated with the 4BN, which when you look up the date thereof is from 1929.
I think that the "4" range of lathes goes all the way through to very late 1940's when the next range was produced.
It's seems to have relatively little wear in the bed for a machine of its age.
Also if the bed had been re ground/ machined at some point provision must have been made under the saddle to bring it back up to the correct height so the feed shafts in the apron would run without binding, so if there is nothing non factory on the saddle underside then it likely hasn't been touched.
Definitely you could check the bed alignment by taking the headstock off the bed and checking the alignment of its mounting surface relative to the rest of the bed, as all those would have been planed in the same set up and I doubt a rebuild effort would have messed with the under the headstock section. Not that removing the headstock is something you'd want to do.
Thanks for the year info . The worry is that at the railway workshops , the whole machine would fit on the large plainer with the headstock intact and they cleaned up the top of the ways with the machine not level . Further inspection required ! Cheers👍
Hi Max, to confirm if she has been machined on the piss is to check the spindle axis to shears
We had 2 flat bed lathes in our machine shop, a Macson and Ward Haggis, both wartime machines.
Used exclusively for machining large flanges, both flogged out near the headstock, they ended up at Krastontien scrap yard.
I have checked spindle to ways on my 10" Logan by mounting a good parallel on the spindle (so it can be tweeked into parallel w/ axis), indicating one side in, then rotating spindle 180 & check with indicator, then remove half the error (repeating to get really close) - then face of parallel should be parallel with spindle.. I was able to adjust the twist of the bed to take out the taper of a part held w/o tailstock. This may allow you to check things without test cuts, & power feed etc in place.. Wonder how easy this will be to measure w/ a thou or two of clearance in the spindle journals - although would this make it slightly less critical as well, as a slight error, once you test the lathe, could possibly be adjusted in the spindle journals?
Also was thinking, re wear on bottom, maybe over-enthusiastic use of carriage stop clamp, or too much keeper tension to keep things from jumping around.. but sounds like there wasn't visible evidence of that much wear...
Great to see you giving the DSG a new chance in life! Thanks!
Can not test the spindle axis until last . Probably require a 3 or 4metre length of thick hollow bar as it would balance the spindle if gripped half way down it's length & take a cut down it . 👍
Max,
Great machine…you had to bring it back….
You had the Biro in the wrong hand……..or, is the video flipped…?
Biro was in the correct hand !!! Cheers 👍
@@swanvalleymachineshop
Dear Max,
Since you’ve revealed the significant and intact nicely parallel and flat way surfaces on the great old DSG bed ….could you improvise an accurate sled to carry a spindle grinder/ tool post style grinder to lightly true up some of the way surfaces to minimise your scraping ?
i heard a train horn in your video, how ironic MAXY .
Train line just down the road ! 👍
noooo now youve lost the benchtop!
No , the long bed on the Herron is the new one !!! 👍
Max-Thank You again 👍
Cheers 👍
Thx for the vid.
No worries 👍
Thank you Max!
No worries 👍
Make a guide plate to bolt to the bottom of the tail stock that rides on the unworn bottom half of the box ways. No scraping of the ways or shims/turcite on the tail stock... Just my two cents.
To be clear, I'm not saying to not scrape the top of the box ways to eliminate your 7 thou taper, I'm saying to not scrape the inner sides of the ways where the tail stock rides. I would say it's time for a power scraper (renzetti style?) to "plane off" the top of the ways back into alignment with the spindle and stop the bottom gib from binding.
I can't speak for Max, but I am imagining that turcite is something he probably would not use, despite it performing well in certain applications. It is a band aid that more likely than not will devalue the machine. I am not a machinist, but it seems to me that turcite is for folks that have neither the time, patience or experience to get into what I imagine many older machinists would call proper machine restoration. While I have not followed Max for many years, the time I have watched him work, I have come to the conclusion that Max is what I would call a master machinist. Someone who has no need for turcite, nor would consider using it. Now if he was in business to restore and sell restored machines and that is all he did, then maybe, and that's kinda a big maybe, he might use turcite. But I could be wrong, I don't know him personally although I have been able to exchange an email or 2. I just get the feeling that using a method like that would not sit well with him. But there is no doubt that it's a time and energy saver and can work well in certain circumstances. I'm sure your suggestion is something he is aware of, as he watches a lot of other machining channels on UA-cam unless I'm mistaken. Have you had good success using turcite? Just curious. I've seen Stefan Gotteswinter use it to level up his milling machine base, and to get some more height on the machine, but I've not really seen anyone use it on lathe bedways yet. I'm sure it can work ok if done right. Anyways, cheers mate!
@@ericpatterson3887 Keith Rucker ( Vintage Machinery .Org) used Turcite on his horizontal boring machine rebuild earlier this year including scraping it in as well. Now he's a very knowledgable machinist and machine rebuilder. I don't think Keith would use the Turcite if it were of doubtful worth.
@@ericpatterson3887 "Turcite B is a low friction linear bearing strip for use primarily on the ways and gibs of machine tools. It provides low friction stick-slip free operation, long life and minimum wear". It has applications in high quality and high precision machines. I have seen it used in surface grinder ways for example. I did not mean to imply it was not a perfectly acceptable solution for use to "widen" the foot of the tail stock on the vertical ways *if Max chose to scrape them into alignment*. He could then machine the tailstock base back parallel (with the tailstock quill) and add a strip of Turcite to act like a shim. Since the vertical sides of the tailstock base are only for alignment of the tailstock, and since the tailstock is firmly clamped to the horizontal ways during use, the Turcite would have no effect on rigidity and would also prevent future wear of the bed's way.
What Stefan Gotteswinter used on the column of his mill was a powdered metal epoxy filler, also perfectly acceptable in his use case. I'm not knocking anyone, to be clear.
I recommended a guide plate 'addition' to the bottom of the tail stock base to make use of the original unworn area of the vertical surface of the ways simply to avoid all the work and difficulty of having to scrape the vertical surface of the bed way in situ. I might also recommend then using that guide plate together with the tailstock base as a mount for a way grinder, if he chooses to go that route, for machining the front boxed way's vertical sides.
I have Biax power scrapers, electronic precision levels, an autocollimator, and poor judgement LoL... I could spend weeks and weeks making surface plate flat and true ways. And though I haven't used it yet, yes I do have a stash of Turcite B, for making Robin Renzetti's rotating mirror and sled, for calibrating surface plates of which I have several large ones :)
@@samrodian919 Yes, I have watched Keith's channel for a while now too, and you might note what I said in my comment that if Max was restoring machines to sell (or as a service to others), then he might use turcite to restore some machines. Keith is not a career machinist if I am not mistaken, so while he is quite experienced with a wealth of knowledge, I do not believe that he started as a young man as a machinist, I could be wrong though. I do know Max started as a machinist as a young man and has a lifetime of experience, with a good portion of that time working with heavy equipment, which as a lifetime heavy machine operator, I can tell you that machining for heavy equipment requires a level of accuracy and production (getting the job done because down time on heavy machinery is very expensive) that the average machinist does not experience (Curtis from Cutting Edge Machining is a good example of what that type of machining is like, except that it was quite different when Max was younger, things have changed a great deal in that area in the last 40-50 years). In my opinion these two machinists are quite different from each other and it is apparent when watching them work. I did not say turcite is a wrong choice, and I pointed out that I can't speak for Max. But I have a distinct feeling that Max would reject turcite as a solution in all except the most extreme circumstances. And given such circumstances, Max probably would not bother with a machine restoration on a machine in need of extreme measures. Again, I can't say definitively. Ask him yourself if you've a mind to, he usually spends time replying to comments in each video. I think I can say definitively that a machine with a turcite repair will have less value than one that does not, but I am certainly no expert. Keith is a very different machinist than Max. Keith has experience in the farming sector and some steam locomotion and rail industry if I'm not mistaken. All those industries do not require a great deal of precision and much different techniques. Keith seems to do his work as more like a hobby, a very involved hobby, but a hobby none the less. Both are good machinists, but are very different type of machinists. From what I understand about turcite, it is a plastic based material soooo....... Nough said. I apologize for the long winded comment.
Hi from the oldest town in Texas, Nacogdoches. Beautiful old machine.
Thanks , from the most isolated city in the world ! Not sure if Perth still has that reputation !!! Cheers 👍
Glad to see that you are going to make a grinding jig because 7 thousand s at the bottom of the way scraping seems a bit much to me 🙂
cheers
ben
No worries . I will use the jig on other machines . 👍
Another very informative video Max, always enjoyable to watch & hopefully learn from. 👍
Thanks 👍
Great to see an old machine being brought back into shape. Thanks for the video.
No worries , Cheers 👍
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Cheers 👍👍👍
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Cheers 👍👍👍
Finally the old Lady getting some more attention!^^
Well deserved attention . 👍
Good video friend Max
Thanks 👍
I think, therein lies the reason it was sitting on the scrap pile; the owner didn't want to spend the time or expertise/coin to repair the old girl. Love watching you work and think it out. Thanks!
Cheers 👍