Jesse, it is important to realise that the Tour has had cobbles since it started. Roads were mainly pave until they wet asphalted after WW2. It is an integral part of the TDF’s DNA. To include it in one stage isn’t too much of an impost in my opinion. I can understand that it doesn’t need to be included every year. The TDF has always and will be a climbers race, but these power and cobble stages allow others in the peleton to shine. Keep up the good work👌
Like Jesse was saying, it detracts from the GC battle. In 2014, Nibali won by 7m37s after the cobbles wreaked havoc on the GC contenders. In my opinion, that was a relatively boring tour. Cobbles definitely add one stage of high excitement, but its at the expense of reduced excitement for the remaining 16 stages.
I loved it! Cobbled stages open up gc opportunities for different/other riders and makes the tdf way more interesting to watch imo. In the end the best GC rider was again on top even some of the pure climbers could hold on as well and maybe we see Roglic chasing stage wins now? Could be fun to watch. Imo tdf should crown the best overall rider and not the best climber/decender so somehow there is a place fot such stages in a gt
From a riders perspective I agree with you but from a spectators perspective I don’t agree with you. As a rider I’ve been watching the Tour for multiple decades and 80% of the overall Tour is boring as bat shite to watch and it’s the same recipe every year…..so whilst I agree the cobbles add risk, it also adds to the spectacle that something could go wrong and that’s what spectators want to see. So I think cobbles every couple of editions would be fine.
They lost 12 seconds and if the gc guys actually pulled instead of relying on their team mates or if stuyven didn't pull when they weren't going to catch the front for pog he would have gained nothing.
@@danielvdl7555 Agree. What the hell was Steyven and Bettiol doing?? I somewhat understand Bora riding but when the yellow jersey crashes it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour to pull. On the other hand why Ineos and DSM wasn't helping WVA. As Dylan Van Baarle said in the interview "we owe a beer to Wout".
@@MartinOroszi ineos helped a bit. Dsm well they don't have to aren't a highly rated gc team. But they could have also. Don't mind what bora did they were pulling before rog crashed
Yeah all that excitement so stupid! I agree let’s make it more boring and safe! Pogi riding the cobbles like a classics rider is so unfair he should be penalized! Bring back the sky train this day was too exciting I agree with this wet blanket
Yeh man the Tour de France without the cobbled stages is so safe and boring! No one watched the tour 20 years ago when they didn’t use cobbles! Let’s make them race it blindfolded and with one hand only so you need real skill!!!
I’m ok with one of these editions with a classics stage maybe once or twice a decade. It is a lottery, but everyone started with the chance it could be them having a mechanical. Rather than be disappointed about the road challenges, I’m disappointed at the fans - Daniel oss had a massive crash with a youth trying to video him on the cobbles, Rogla’s crash was caused by the safety equipment coming loose and blowing onto the road. That could happen on any roundabout in any stage. It’s just a coincidence it happened on the cobbled stage. Many 60kg GC riders made it without incident in the main group like Nairo and Yates… If you don’t like cobbles as a rider you could have targeted the giro and vuelta this season like Remco.
Too, if they weren’t to add cobbles how much more exciting can you make it for the viewers when they’re the ones sitting at home watching 4hr broadcasts.. Adding more TT’s or TTT? Adding the cobbles is a great edition to the race. Look at how the race broke into 5 different packs and how much that shook up the GC contention. It’s bloody mint! What happened to Roglic, Haig and whatnot is just a freak thing due to the hay-bail coming out onto on the road and they also mention the person with phone who took em clean out on the cobbles.. That happened last year with that fucking mole holding the sign taking half the peloton and the entire jumbo Visma squad. If the crash with Roglic and Haig didn’t happen people wouldn’t be saying anything negative about it. Regardless of the stages they put in the tour majority of it comes down to luck. Like any bike anyone does at that level. No fans? No sport. And the TV is where it’s at.
@@ezeekwheel Bernal, Carapaz, Froome, Dumoulin, Nibali, Contador, Quintana as recent winners would like to disagree. Or do multiple GT winners become "little riders" because the Tour is not the only race that counts?
Yeah I think Jesse accidentally summarised it against himself here at approx 4:18- "...In terms of entertainment, it's as good as you get". Which is what it's all about at the end of the day. No spectators = no sport.
Hey I’d love to see a downhill mountain time trial, that would be incredible to watch for the spectators. But there needs to be a line in the sand of what is reasonable and cobble stages cross that IMO
Totally agree, for a little while it looked like Pog was going to take over a minute on the other GC guys in the group that crashed or got held up by the crash. Organizers can completely kill the race from a GC entertainment perspective later in the race with stages like these.
@@nerocoaching bit like your BS reasons for not racing currently in Europe. Let it rip. Pin a number on and lead your team. Who GAF if you’re fit enough. FFS have a crack. Live only once
I respectfully disagree.I think if your going to win the hardest race in the world you should be able to do it all.Hills,flat,time trials, and yes cobbles that are actually a big part of european roads.Keep up the great work on your channel really enjoy the videos.Cheers
The stage was horribly marshalled, and team cars and moto riders were yet again a total liability. The idea that cobbles and gravel have no place in the TdF is just laughable though. That's most of the race's history.
I said the same thing after the race. It’s just so random on cobble, 50/50 If you brake ur collar bone or not. It’s ridiculous when they have 2 more weeks of racing.
Pogacar got a huge moto draft when it ripped him off the front group and he gained 25 seconds on a chasing JV with WVA giving it the beans, pretty clear the moto was way too close when he was gaining that much time in that section.
Agree, you want to see the best riders going against one another for races they're suited at. If I want to watch cobbles, I'll watch Paris Roubaix or Ronde because they have the best classics specialists. Whereas a cobbled stage just unnecessarily eliminates GC contenders and makes the rest of the tour lower quality as a result when it comes to the mountain and TT stages for one single above average stage
There is a time and place for cobbles. Which is at paris-roubaix. Same goes for gravel. That's for strade and gravel racing. Road racing is done on tarmac.
The thing they need to lose is endless flat pointless stages for GC, which they have been working on to be fair. The years when Cavendish would just own week one because it was all just boring 200km races, that had no contest until the final km, are thankfully behind us, but there's still nothing better to get to sleep than a sprint stage, and they don't mean anything for GC, except when something goes wrong for a GC rider, which is arguably not a competitive feat for their rivals, just bad luck for the guy who loses three minutes because of being hit by a team car or something like that. Yesterday, this happened to Roglic, but it wasn't on a cobbled section, that accident could easily have happened in a sprint stage. For the rest of the GC field, they lost 13 seconds on Pogacar, and that's only because of Stuyven's monstrous effort in the final km's. If the tour was only about GC, then cobbled stages still would make more sense than endless flat kilometers having zero impact on GC apart from accidents. But the tour is about more than just GC, it's also about individual stage wins, and showing off the beauty of cycling. I'd rather see five cobbled stages than one stage on the flat with a predictable attack, getting a predictable 3 minute break, being predictably reeled back in in the final 20km, and then predictably having the same 200 guys who started the stage 5 hours earlier, all squeeze themselves through the street of a samey french village, and one of about three sprinters wins the day. And after the predictable mass crash, we pick up the predictable broken collar bones and wrists of GC riders who had bad luck that day and won't continue tomorrow.
I agree with you, I was just thinking the same, its a great fun to watch in a short term, but in a long term its bad beacuse it's too risky for GC guys and the more GC guys quit, the less fun it will be in the next stages
Don't know what you think but the ridiculous amount of crashes you see on wet cobbles like roubaix last year or tdf 2014 is not something I'd like to see again.
It just highlights the conflicting goals of the the parties involved with the TFD, and from ASO's point of view the race isn't about a GC battle, they really don't care who wins, from their point of view its about entertainment and making money and of course a stage like this makes them a lot of money, so while the ASO dictates the course and aren't interested in rider safety or GC ambitions then riders and teams just have to accept what they get.
I have to generally disagree here. From my perspective it's the increased risk of punctures that is the issue. It's generally something you can't control easily on a stage like this and it can ruin someone's tour especially with the struggle for the cars to get to riders. However, I think everything else about cobbles (and gravel is fine) it's a road tour yes but these are roads. It is never promoted as a bitumen tour. The biggest crashes last night happened off the cobbles. The hay bale was ridiculous. In the wet it's harder yes but skilled riders still aren't crashing and if someone crashes around you causing you to crash that happens on all stages again. What I love is it makes for less one dimensional riders it's harder for teams to control. When sky was doing there thing it made for boring tours. I didn't watch plenty. Last night I loved though. Gc riders losing some time means they need to throw caution to the wind and try something this makes for exciting racing. This happens in the giro and Vuelta plenty and it is much better racing generally. The tour has become too formulaic and boring. This is their attempt to break that.
Crashes may not happened on the cobbles but the riders FIGHT hard before each sector which is essentially caused by the cobbles. If we lose GC riders due to crashes and mechancials it just makes the rest of the race boring.
Giro and vuelta have good racing without cobbles, there’s plenty of things to do In the stage design to get more exciting racing that don’t involve cobbles (and don’t involve big added risk)
@@MartinOroszi martin this can happen on small short climbs or anything really. That can be used to make races more exciting that happens all the time it's not a reason to not use cobbles
@@nerocoaching cobble roads are part of riding in France. I don't see the big issue with using them. Yea you have the risk of punctures but outside of that the crashes mostly happen with riders doing silly things of often don't even happen in the cobbles.
Pog could have easily been taken out with a flat or a rider going down in front. luck was a factor. Not to say he’s not the best GC rider in a stage like this, he is. Just saying the outcome today could easily have been reversed with roglic
I've personally always loved when the organisers spice it up. It allows riders (especially the well prepared, and technically gifted ones) to shine. The groundwork for Nibali's 2014 victory was layed on the cobble stage, and then he followed it up with amazing rides in the high mountains. Same goes for Bernal in the giro last year on the gravel stage to Montalcino. As long as these sort of stages are rare occurrences it is good to have them since they ensure that each year is a different and new spectacle.
nibali won by over 7m ahead of 2 relatively unknown riders in 2014. The high mountains looked like a training ride for him. The groundwork wasnt laid, the whole house was built. It was race over
@@samuelhill5290 Yes, he and Fuglsang destroyed everyone that day, which was a great spectacle and cemented him as the main favourite. Only Froome had some severe crashes, everyone else just wasn't good enough to keep up. And I wouldn't say that Péraud, Pinot, Valverde, and van Garderen were "relatively unknown" ;)
Pro cobble guy here. You don’t make a strong enough case to have France remove every single cobble from their roads. Wheel tech and frame design has certainly improved to adapt wider tires for stages like this. Ruined GC field? No way!
if we don't have cobbles etc, we go back to ineos/sky dominated ttt with the only excitement on the climbs. this is a more realistic form of racing as it throws up more variables and more potential winners. and Pog, ... do the numbers he's not racing clean in my opinion. something crook in Tallarook .
Dr Inigo San Millan mentioned a freak athlete that was coming to possibly dominate World Tour Cycling before Pog had won his first Tour. He had worked with his team and seen his numbers. He is a freak, much like Greg Lemond was a freak. Doesn't mean he is on something the others are not.
@@gregmorrison7320 yes true have a read of these freaks up the Alpe: Cycling’s fastest times on Alpe d’Huez, all tested positive. Glad it aren't happening anymore, its all nutrition now. Phew. 1 37′ 35″ Marco Pantani 1997 Italy 2* 37′ 36″ Lance Armstrong 2004 United States 3 38′ 00″ Marco Pantani 1994 Italy 4 38′ 01″ Lance Armstrong 2001 United States 5 38′ 04″ Marco Pantani 1995 Italy 6 38′ 23″ Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany 7 38′ 34″ Floyd Landis 2006 United States 8 38′ 35″ Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany 9* 38′ 37″ Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany 10 39′ 02″ Richard Virenque 1997 France 11 39′ 06″ Iban Mayo 2003 Spain 12* 39′ 17″ Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany 13* 39′ 21″ Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
I have to disagree with you Jesse. I love they included a cobble stage. It's just adding in a new, deserving, style of racing. Sure, the classics guys have all Spring to shine, but now they can shine on a bigger stage. Think of people that wouldn't normally be exposed to the spring classics, they're seeing a 'new' kind of racing they might enjoy watching more. Would you have preferred another sprint stage where a breakaway gets caught in the last 10km and then it's just sprint teams battling for position, and finishing with 2 or 3 fast guys duking it out? So what if the big GC contenders crash out? You get to see the best of the rest anyway. Nibali probably wouldn't have won in 2014 if Froome didn't crash out. The Tour is all about the best overall rider, and cobblestone racing is a worthy inclusion, just as much as climbing, sprinting and time trialling.
There’s other ways to make the racing more exciting to watch. More circuits, more stages with short steep climbs (without flat sections at the finish which neutralise the racing). The cobbled stages cross a line IMO, eg id love to see downhill mountain time trials, would be great to watch, but clearly that’s too far. I see cobbled stages in a similar light, even more so if it happens to rain ☠️
@@nerocoaching Fair call, and it's interesting to see both sides of this as it's such a polarising discussion. The race organisers were never going to please everyone, but I'm sure they have their own brief to respond to. I'm enjoying the European videos mate, great to see the squad up against local talent in Holland. Are you going to watch any of the Tour? You're so close!
This Stage did not prove the Pog is a better bike racer it only proved that a hay bale in front of you or a mechancial can end your GC hopes. Not to mention that Steyven, Bettiol and the whole Bora team was pulling in the front group when they had no reason - all contributed to Pog's luck. Vingegaard will beat him in the mountains no question!! :)
I disagree. The sport dies a slow death without the fans and this stage created the buzz to watch. You’ll see comment after comment stating they loved the stage and disagree with you and some will say they loved the stage and agree with you but everyone loved the stage and tuned in with anticipation. Can you say that all 21 stages generated that same love for the fans, surely not.
Agreed. But how does it even serve the sponsors? For example, won’t general interest in the subsequent stages decrease dramatically in Oz because of what went down with Haig and O’Conner?
what about the cobbles on the champs elysees? the tour is also a classic race that went over cobbles and also dirt roads depending on the region it passed through. they were left out at one point... and now they're back. riders have the fatty tires these days to compensate for a bit more bumps along the way don't they? 😁
Disagree, should be raced on all road surfaces of France. Didn't hear the complaints about the cobbled climb on stage 4. The problem with stage 5 was hype about the stage and how the race is run. Ben O'Connor bad luck (and maybe bad tyre technology choice) punctured, bad team decision ( who to send back and when) and then in words of O'Connor and Nassen "... motos". Jonas Vingegaard chain jammed and in his own words panicked, if he got off his bikes spent 20 seconds fixing the dropped chain, there would of been no drama (he and most GC riders lost 15secs on the Pog). Roglic, Haig and others happen on a bitumen road in town on a roundabout, a moto clipped a hay bale and pulled it onto the road, Stefan Kung clipped that bale, pulling it further on the road and the crash behind. Seriously if ASO replaced a large number of motos with drones, would of been far safer and less issues. Also if more teams used tubeless with sealant (not all do) and inserts, less issues and ride longer on flats. (Problems more work for overworked mechanics who are so used to tubs)
There is just absolutely no need to add even more luck to a hard three week race. Not saying Pogy was just lucky but would Jumbo have lost time with both guys if it were'nt for a mechanical and fucking haybale on the road?
Some of the best stages in recent times have been the super short mountain stages. I get that due to the logistics of the race you have to get from A to B and see as much of France as possible, but some of the 200+ km days are just boring. I agree that these stages are too much of a lottery and people saying well let’s get rid of mountain stages because it’s not fair on the sprinters or TT’s because it may rain at some point and riders will be disadvantaged, but they just don’t understand what a race is. It was an exciting day but nothing compared to a proper Paris-Roubaix, let the best rider win not the one that has a ‘good day’ on a lottery day… enjoyed hearing Jesse get ‘fired up’ .. good luck in your race today👍🚴♂️
Interesting to see how I agree with most serious cyclists or serious analysts, but with none of my friends and social media ;) Great stage if you want to watch ONE stage. Terrible, and could have been even worse, if you actually like a three week competition.
I agree and disagree , yes the tdf is positively brutal , but I think U do have to mix it up sometimes to bring out a possible different winner because they have slightly different skills etc , I mean U could conversely say a 25 km decent with 30 switch backs is risky especially in the wet , so a rider who isn't a good descender is just in a lottery and could be put out of contention ?!! I think the tour organisation should make the TDF a bit different at times , What about an 60 K individual TT on day 11 and no TT bikes and 20 km of the TT included cobblestone sector s 😉
The cobbles aren't the problem. The problem is having just ONE stage on the cobbles if you're going to do them at all. Given three or four stages of cobbles everything would average out. The bad luck would strike nearly every rider, and it would be a terrible idea, but a hellaciously entertaining tour. But that would be really insane. Pogacar is benefitting from the same luck as Armstrong. It is remarkable how he avoids all obstacles on course and any controversy off course, truly remarkable.
Cobbles are pointless in a Grand Tour. Most of the field are not cobble specialists. We don't want GC Contenders to be put out by crashing into hay bales on day 5. Crashes ruined the 2021 TdF - by the time they got to the mountains all of Pogacars GC opponents were either carrying injuries or had run out of team mates - none of them had an opportunity to save any energy for the last week - Pogacar is due some bad luck... The cobble specialists cannot attack like a one day race - most of them have GC riders to protect. Most of the riders will spend the next 2 days recovering and sitting up. It's pointless. Sponsors love it but it ruins the spectacle of a Grand Tour.
Crap...cobbles are great. A tour winner is the rider who is the designated to be the best overall rider. The best overall performer for tt, climbing, sprinting, classics type stages everything & every aspect of cycling including mastering the elements. Cobbles are a big part of riding in Europe and should be part of the mix of a tour to help decide the overall winner. The organisers may have added cobbles to throw a spanner in the works to make out comes less predictable... The tours always favours the climbers....the cobbles have tested their skillsets. I'd prefer the removal of race radios.....that would really mix things up.
100% agree, there should be no place in a road bike stage race for cobbled or gravel stages. We need more mountain top finishes and longer time trials.
I agree, I’m not a fan of gravel or cobbles in the TDF. If they really wanted to add a cobble stage, they should put it near the end… or maybe it should be a time trial so it isn’t so effected by position of riders is in the peloton.
@@iimmolarious7636 more cobbles I say! The fact that there are cobbled classics only reinforces that they are a core part of cycling, sure the tour started on cobbles
I can understand most of the points you make, but I don't necessarily agree that spectators only get to see one interesting stage and the rest of the Tour is ruined either way. On the contrary, the fact that Roglic and O'Connor lost time should incentivise them to attack a lot sooner in the mountain stages and, Jumbo-visma in particular, to try to benefit even more from the fact they have two leaders. It's very possible you'll see an even more 'open' battle in the mountains because of these time losses.
100% disagree. It’s the Tour of France right? These roads are a part of French cycling. Why not take the Alpe out? It has too many turn or the weather could be bad, or just start at the bottom of it so riders don’t have to do the decent. G. Thomas crashes out of a grand tour because of a water bottle…should we not have those??
Totally Agree with you Jesse! All this has done is ruined 3 Weeks of Racing ! One day races fine race on gravel , cobbles what ever . So disappointed for Haig Caleb & especially Roglic ! l wanted to see potentially one of the best tours in years !! Disappointing really .
Instead of cobble stages for entertainment ASO should finally have medium mountain stages like Paris Nice or La Vuelta which can be more important for GC than summit finishes.
I think it is unfortunate that some riders had mechanical issues, but I think a stage like this highlights positioning skills, team weaknesses, etc. Why does Rog crash so much? Why does Pog crash so little? Why didn't Jumbo drop the full team back to Rog and then try to sweep up JV and try to stitch it back together? Why couldn't AG2R bring O'Conner back? Where was Pog's team? Why didn't some of these GC guys do Paris-Roubaix or other cobbled races to prepare? I agree that when GC detonates like it did today it will probably be a less exciting race towards the end since the gaps will already be somewhat established.
Come on, please don’t get on this clickbaiting bandwagon… I’ll bite 😉. The gc time loss and crash damage was similar to a really windy echelons racing stage, yet everybody loves those. Cobbles are ok but the parcours design and security was a sh*t show. Too much opportunity to reform and start the gallop for the next section all over. Too much badly signaled road furniture.
@@nerocoaching that would have been even better 😎. Sure, more dependency on handling skills, but that’s not a bad thing right? Also smaller groups so less pre section stress. Off course there’s enormous stress where things are expected to break, but again: similar to a crosswind stage.
more pre sector stress In the rain because of increase chance of crashing on the sectors itself. You can’t remove the wind from stages, different to designing a single stage that specifically goes over sections that are highly likely to end some GC riders chances for things out of their control, exacerbated in the rain as well (thankfully for riders, no rain last night). Again I love it as a spectator for one day, hate it at a lover of the tour do France as a whole
Jesse, it is important to realise that the Tour has had cobbles since it started. Roads were mainly pave until they wet asphalted after WW2. It is an integral part of the TDF’s DNA.
To include it in one stage isn’t too much of an impost in my opinion. I can understand that it doesn’t need to be included every year.
The TDF has always and will be a climbers race, but these power and cobble stages allow others in the peleton to shine.
Keep up the good work👌
Like Jesse was saying, it detracts from the GC battle. In 2014, Nibali won by 7m37s after the cobbles wreaked havoc on the GC contenders. In my opinion, that was a relatively boring tour. Cobbles definitely add one stage of high excitement, but its at the expense of reduced excitement for the remaining 16 stages.
I loved it! Cobbled stages open up gc opportunities for different/other riders and makes the tdf way more interesting to watch imo. In the end the best GC rider was again on top even some of the pure climbers could hold on as well and maybe we see Roglic chasing stage wins now? Could be fun to watch. Imo tdf should crown the best overall rider and not the best climber/decender so somehow there is a place fot such stages in a gt
From a riders perspective I agree with you but from a spectators perspective I don’t agree with you. As a rider I’ve been watching the Tour for multiple decades and 80% of the overall Tour is boring as bat shite to watch and it’s the same recipe every year…..so whilst I agree the cobbles add risk, it also adds to the spectacle that something could go wrong and that’s what spectators want to see. So I think cobbles every couple of editions would be fine.
80% is boring as bat shit... I think that says more about you than the tour
My dad and I were watching in disbelief as practically ALL of the gc contenders lost time to pog
When all of jumbo disappeared it became apparent why cobbles aren’t in many stage races and why they should be kept out
They lost 12 seconds and if the gc guys actually pulled instead of relying on their team mates or if stuyven didn't pull when they weren't going to catch the front for pog he would have gained nothing.
@@danielvdl7555 Agree. What the hell was Steyven and Bettiol doing?? I somewhat understand Bora riding but when the yellow jersey crashes it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour to pull. On the other hand why Ineos and DSM wasn't helping WVA. As Dylan Van Baarle said in the interview "we owe a beer to Wout".
@@MartinOroszi ineos helped a bit. Dsm well they don't have to aren't a highly rated gc team. But they could have also. Don't mind what bora did they were pulling before rog crashed
Yeah all that excitement so stupid! I agree let’s make it more boring and safe! Pogi riding the cobbles like a classics rider is so unfair he should be penalized! Bring back the sky train this day was too exciting I agree with this wet blanket
Yeh man the Tour de France without the cobbled stages is so safe and boring! No one watched the tour 20 years ago when they didn’t use cobbles! Let’s make them race it blindfolded and with one hand only so you need real skill!!!
It's a tour of france, and cobbles are in france. I think you have to have them occasionally.
I’m ok with one of these editions with a classics stage maybe once or twice a decade. It is a lottery, but everyone started with the chance it could be them having a mechanical.
Rather than be disappointed about the road challenges, I’m disappointed at the fans - Daniel oss had a massive crash with a youth trying to video him on the cobbles, Rogla’s crash was caused by the safety equipment coming loose and blowing onto the road. That could happen on any roundabout in any stage. It’s just a coincidence it happened on the cobbled stage.
Many 60kg GC riders made it without incident in the main group like Nairo and Yates…
If you don’t like cobbles as a rider you could have targeted the giro and vuelta this season like Remco.
totally agreed!
The tour is the tour. Doing the giro instead is something no big rider will ever do
Too, if they weren’t to add cobbles how much more exciting can you make it for the viewers when they’re the ones sitting at home watching 4hr broadcasts.. Adding more TT’s or TTT?
Adding the cobbles is a great edition to the race. Look at how the race broke into 5 different packs and how much that shook up the GC contention. It’s bloody mint! What happened to Roglic, Haig and whatnot is just a freak thing due to the hay-bail coming out onto on the road and they also mention the person with phone who took em clean out on the cobbles.. That happened last year with that fucking mole holding the sign taking half the peloton and the entire jumbo Visma squad. If the crash with Roglic and Haig didn’t happen people wouldn’t be saying anything negative about it.
Regardless of the stages they put in the tour majority of it comes down to luck. Like any bike anyone does at that level. No fans? No sport. And the TV is where it’s at.
@@zwtvchannel I just hope you don’t know any cyclists cus it will be a lottery who wins
@@ezeekwheel Bernal, Carapaz, Froome, Dumoulin, Nibali, Contador, Quintana as recent winners would like to disagree.
Or do multiple GT winners become "little riders" because the Tour is not the only race that counts?
Cobbled stages are fun to watch so I'm all for them.
Yeah I think Jesse accidentally summarised it against himself here at approx 4:18- "...In terms of entertainment, it's as good as you get". Which is what it's all about at the end of the day. No spectators = no sport.
It's true but he's right in saying one 'fun' stage could make the rest of the tour pretty boring and that could be because of pure bad luck.
Hey I’d love to see a downhill mountain time trial, that would be incredible to watch for the spectators. But there needs to be a line in the sand of what is reasonable and cobble stages cross that IMO
Totally agree, for a little while it looked like Pog was going to take over a minute on the other GC guys in the group that crashed or got held up by the crash. Organizers can completely kill the race from a GC entertainment perspective later in the race with stages like these.
Don’t like cobbles go play tennis. Don’t enter the race. Riders know the course months out. Deal with it.
If you like cobbles go watch the cobbled classics there’s a whole seasons of those races
@@nerocoaching standard too hard modern attitudes. HTFU
@@nerocoaching bit like your BS reasons for not racing currently in Europe. Let it rip. Pin a number on and lead your team. Who GAF if you’re fit enough. FFS have a crack. Live only once
Nailed it, thanks Jessie. Short term gain, long term pain as the rest of the race won’t be as good now.
If wout wasn’t super human and brought the gap to pog down to a reasonable margin all my hype for the whole race would have died.
I respectfully disagree.I think if your going to win the hardest race in the world you should be able to do it all.Hills,flat,time trials, and yes cobbles that are actually a big part of european roads.Keep up the great work on your channel really enjoy the videos.Cheers
But are you really winning or just lucky not to suffer punctures or mechanicals
Racing on cobbles is 50% luck. Not the best way to find out who is the strongest across all disciplines. 2014 tour his an example
Spot on ..I do not want the TDF decided by a crash on a stupid section of shitty road .Keep that for the classics 👌
The stage was horribly marshalled, and team cars and moto riders were yet again a total liability. The idea that cobbles and gravel have no place in the TdF is just laughable though. That's most of the race's history.
I said the same thing after the race. It’s just so random on cobble, 50/50 If you brake ur collar bone or not. It’s ridiculous when they have 2 more weeks of racing.
Pogacar got a huge moto draft when it ripped him off the front group and he gained 25 seconds on a chasing JV with WVA giving it the beans, pretty clear the moto was way too close when he was gaining that much time in that section.
Agree, you want to see the best riders going against one another for races they're suited at. If I want to watch cobbles, I'll watch Paris Roubaix or Ronde because they have the best classics specialists. Whereas a cobbled stage just unnecessarily eliminates GC contenders and makes the rest of the tour lower quality as a result when it comes to the mountain and TT stages for one single above average stage
There is a time and place for cobbles. Which is at paris-roubaix. Same goes for gravel. That's for strade and gravel racing.
Road racing is done on tarmac.
The thing they need to lose is endless flat pointless stages for GC, which they have been working on to be fair. The years when Cavendish would just own week one because it was all just boring 200km races, that had no contest until the final km, are thankfully behind us, but there's still nothing better to get to sleep than a sprint stage, and they don't mean anything for GC, except when something goes wrong for a GC rider, which is arguably not a competitive feat for their rivals, just bad luck for the guy who loses three minutes because of being hit by a team car or something like that. Yesterday, this happened to Roglic, but it wasn't on a cobbled section, that accident could easily have happened in a sprint stage. For the rest of the GC field, they lost 13 seconds on Pogacar, and that's only because of Stuyven's monstrous effort in the final km's.
If the tour was only about GC, then cobbled stages still would make more sense than endless flat kilometers having zero impact on GC apart from accidents. But the tour is about more than just GC, it's also about individual stage wins, and showing off the beauty of cycling. I'd rather see five cobbled stages than one stage on the flat with a predictable attack, getting a predictable 3 minute break, being predictably reeled back in in the final 20km, and then predictably having the same 200 guys who started the stage 5 hours earlier, all squeeze themselves through the street of a samey french village, and one of about three sprinters wins the day. And after the predictable mass crash, we pick up the predictable broken collar bones and wrists of GC riders who had bad luck that day and won't continue tomorrow.
I agree with you, I was just thinking the same, its a great fun to watch in a short term, but in a long term its bad beacuse it's too risky for GC guys and the more GC guys quit, the less fun it will be in the next stages
Totally agree!
We can imagine if it rains… 2014 … froome went out the back the same as he went out of the back today. It is great seeing GC riders over the cobbles
Don't know what you think but the ridiculous amount of crashes you see on wet cobbles like roubaix last year or tdf 2014 is not something I'd like to see again.
It just highlights the conflicting goals of the the parties involved with the TFD, and from ASO's point of view the race isn't about a GC battle, they really don't care who wins, from their point of view its about entertainment and making money and of course a stage like this makes them a lot of money, so while the ASO dictates the course and aren't interested in rider safety or GC ambitions then riders and teams just have to accept what they get.
I'm on the fence here, but I get your point, a cobbled stage introduce the element "lotery" into the race
I have to generally disagree here.
From my perspective it's the increased risk of punctures that is the issue. It's generally something you can't control easily on a stage like this and it can ruin someone's tour especially with the struggle for the cars to get to riders.
However, I think everything else about cobbles (and gravel is fine) it's a road tour yes but these are roads. It is never promoted as a bitumen tour. The biggest crashes last night happened off the cobbles. The hay bale was ridiculous. In the wet it's harder yes but skilled riders still aren't crashing and if someone crashes around you causing you to crash that happens on all stages again.
What I love is it makes for less one dimensional riders it's harder for teams to control. When sky was doing there thing it made for boring tours. I didn't watch plenty. Last night I loved though. Gc riders losing some time means they need to throw caution to the wind and try something this makes for exciting racing. This happens in the giro and Vuelta plenty and it is much better racing generally. The tour has become too formulaic and boring. This is their attempt to break that.
Crashes may not happened on the cobbles but the riders FIGHT hard before each sector which is essentially caused by the cobbles. If we lose GC riders due to crashes and mechancials it just makes the rest of the race boring.
Giro and vuelta have good racing without cobbles, there’s plenty of things to do In the stage design to get more exciting racing that don’t involve cobbles (and don’t involve big added risk)
@@MartinOroszi martin this can happen on small short climbs or anything really. That can be used to make races more exciting that happens all the time it's not a reason to not use cobbles
@@nerocoaching often use dirt/gravel sections. Especially the giro. Which you put in the same basket as cobbles.
@@nerocoaching cobble roads are part of riding in France. I don't see the big issue with using them. Yea you have the risk of punctures but outside of that the crashes mostly happen with riders doing silly things of often don't even happen in the cobbles.
Pog could have easily been taken out with a flat or a rider going down in front. luck was a factor. Not to say he’s not the best GC rider in a stage like this, he is. Just saying the outcome today could easily have been reversed with roglic
The Tour never started on asphalted roads. To get more viewership you need to expand the race.
I've personally always loved when the organisers spice it up. It allows riders (especially the well prepared, and technically gifted ones) to shine. The groundwork for Nibali's 2014 victory was layed on the cobble stage, and then he followed it up with amazing rides in the high mountains. Same goes for Bernal in the giro last year on the gravel stage to Montalcino.
As long as these sort of stages are rare occurrences it is good to have them since they ensure that each year is a different and new spectacle.
nibali won by over 7m ahead of 2 relatively unknown riders in 2014. The high mountains looked like a training ride for him. The groundwork wasnt laid, the whole house was built. It was race over
@@samuelhill5290 Yes, he and Fuglsang destroyed everyone that day, which was a great spectacle and cemented him as the main favourite. Only Froome had some severe crashes, everyone else just wasn't good enough to keep up.
And I wouldn't say that Péraud, Pinot, Valverde, and van Garderen were "relatively unknown" ;)
I see your point, but loads of guys ended their GC battle that day, which is a similar outcome to crashing
The next thing they will do is make them race a 6hr mountain stage on a montain bike. unsupported of course
Pro cobble guy here. You don’t make a strong enough case to have France remove every single cobble from their roads. Wheel tech and frame design has certainly improved to adapt wider tires for stages like this. Ruined GC field? No way!
100% agree!!
Great 1 day race but wrecked the big show down 100%
100% agree, it’s not good for the Tour.
if we don't have cobbles etc, we go back to ineos/sky dominated ttt with the only excitement on the climbs. this is a more realistic form of racing as it throws up more variables and more potential winners. and Pog, ... do the numbers he's not racing clean in my opinion. something crook in Tallarook .
Dr Inigo San Millan mentioned a freak athlete that was coming to possibly dominate World Tour Cycling before Pog had won his first Tour. He had worked with his team and seen his numbers. He is a freak, much like Greg Lemond was a freak. Doesn't mean he is on something the others are not.
@@gregmorrison7320 yes true have a read of these freaks up the Alpe:
Cycling’s fastest times on Alpe d’Huez, all tested positive. Glad it aren't happening anymore, its all nutrition now. Phew.
1 37′ 35″ Marco Pantani 1997 Italy
2* 37′ 36″ Lance Armstrong 2004 United States
3 38′ 00″ Marco Pantani 1994 Italy
4 38′ 01″ Lance Armstrong 2001 United States
5 38′ 04″ Marco Pantani 1995 Italy
6 38′ 23″ Jan Ullrich 1997 Germany
7 38′ 34″ Floyd Landis 2006 United States
8 38′ 35″ Andreas Klöden 2006 Germany
9* 38′ 37″ Jan Ullrich 2004 Germany
10 39′ 02″ Richard Virenque 1997 France
11 39′ 06″ Iban Mayo 2003 Spain
12* 39′ 17″ Andreas Klöden 2004 Germany
13* 39′ 21″ Jose Azevedo 2004 Portugal
100% agree.
I have to disagree with you Jesse. I love they included a cobble stage. It's just adding in a new, deserving, style of racing. Sure, the classics guys have all Spring to shine, but now they can shine on a bigger stage. Think of people that wouldn't normally be exposed to the spring classics, they're seeing a 'new' kind of racing they might enjoy watching more. Would you have preferred another sprint stage where a breakaway gets caught in the last 10km and then it's just sprint teams battling for position, and finishing with 2 or 3 fast guys duking it out? So what if the big GC contenders crash out? You get to see the best of the rest anyway. Nibali probably wouldn't have won in 2014 if Froome didn't crash out. The Tour is all about the best overall rider, and cobblestone racing is a worthy inclusion, just as much as climbing, sprinting and time trialling.
There’s other ways to make the racing more exciting to watch. More circuits, more stages with short steep climbs (without flat sections at the finish which neutralise the racing).
The cobbled stages cross a line IMO, eg id love to see downhill mountain time trials, would be great to watch, but clearly that’s too far. I see cobbled stages in a similar light, even more so if it happens to rain ☠️
@@nerocoaching Fair call, and it's interesting to see both sides of this as it's such a polarising discussion. The race organisers were never going to please everyone, but I'm sure they have their own brief to respond to. I'm enjoying the European videos mate, great to see the squad up against local talent in Holland. Are you going to watch any of the Tour? You're so close!
This Stage did not prove the Pog is a better bike racer it only proved that a hay bale in front of you or a mechancial can end your GC hopes. Not to mention that Steyven, Bettiol and the whole Bora team was pulling in the front group when they had no reason - all contributed to Pog's luck. Vingegaard will beat him in the mountains no question!! :)
Agree.
Daryl Impey saying the same thing on his channel.
I really understand your point and i kind agreed , but don't because I think this race should put cyclists in the worst off difficulties.
Need more cobbles and definitely need more gravel, the boring as bat shit sprint stages in the Tour over the years have me pining for the Giro.
The giro doesn’t have any cobbles or dirt
@@nerocoaching Or as many boring sprint stages.
Yeh TDF could get more creative with the stages, cobbles aside
@@nerocoaching And the Giro certainly has had gravel sectors.
I disagree. The sport dies a slow death without the fans and this stage created the buzz to watch. You’ll see comment after comment stating they loved the stage and disagree with you and some will say they loved the stage and agree with you but everyone loved the stage and tuned in with anticipation. Can you say that all 21 stages generated that same love for the fans, surely not.
If Pogacar is gaining time on the cobbles, sounds like the other GC riders need to git gud
Agreed. But how does it even serve the sponsors? For example, won’t general interest in the subsequent stages decrease dramatically in Oz because of what went down with Haig and O’Conner?
what about the cobbles on the champs elysees? the tour is also a classic race that went over cobbles and also dirt roads depending on the region it passed through. they were left out at one point... and now they're back. riders have the fatty tires these days to compensate for a bit more bumps along the way don't they? 😁
Thank you for this take.
Disagree, should be raced on all road surfaces of France. Didn't hear the complaints about the cobbled climb on stage 4. The problem with stage 5 was hype about the stage and how the race is run. Ben O'Connor bad luck (and maybe bad tyre technology choice) punctured, bad team decision ( who to send back and when) and then in words of O'Connor and Nassen "... motos". Jonas Vingegaard chain jammed and in his own words panicked, if he got off his bikes spent 20 seconds fixing the dropped chain, there would of been no drama (he and most GC riders lost 15secs on the Pog). Roglic, Haig and others happen on a bitumen road in town on a roundabout, a moto clipped a hay bale and pulled it onto the road, Stefan Kung clipped that bale, pulling it further on the road and the crash behind. Seriously if ASO replaced a large number of motos with drones, would of been far safer and less issues. Also if more teams used tubeless with sealant (not all do) and inserts, less issues and ride longer on flats. (Problems more work for overworked mechanics who are so used to tubs)
There is just absolutely no need to add even more luck to a hard three week race. Not saying Pogy was just lucky but would Jumbo have lost time with both guys if it were'nt for a mechanical and fucking haybale on the road?
I'm actually pissed the f off about Roglic's crash. Like ffs all I want is a gc battle including Roglic grrr
Some of the best stages in recent times have been the super short mountain stages. I get that due to the logistics of the race you have to get from A to B and see as much of France as possible, but some of the 200+ km days are just boring. I agree that these stages are too much of a lottery and people saying well let’s get rid of mountain stages because it’s not fair on the sprinters or TT’s because it may rain at some point and riders will be disadvantaged, but they just don’t understand what a race is. It was an exciting day but nothing compared to a proper Paris-Roubaix, let the best rider win not the one that has a ‘good day’ on a lottery day… enjoyed hearing Jesse get ‘fired up’ .. good luck in your race today👍🚴♂️
Interesting to see how I agree with most serious cyclists or serious analysts, but with none of my friends and social media ;)
Great stage if you want to watch ONE stage. Terrible, and could have been even worse, if you actually like a three week competition.
I agree and disagree , yes the tdf is positively brutal , but I think U do have to mix it up sometimes to bring out a possible different winner because they have slightly different skills etc , I mean U could conversely say a 25 km decent with 30 switch backs is risky especially in the wet , so a rider who isn't a good descender is just in a lottery and could be put out of contention ?!!
I think the tour organisation should make the TDF a bit different at times ,
What about an 60 K individual TT on day 11 and no TT bikes and 20 km of the TT included cobblestone sector s 😉
The cobbles aren't the problem. The problem is having just ONE stage on the cobbles if you're going to do them at all. Given three or four stages of cobbles everything would average out. The bad luck would strike nearly every rider, and it would be a terrible idea, but a hellaciously entertaining tour. But that would be really insane. Pogacar is benefitting from the same luck as Armstrong. It is remarkable how he avoids all obstacles on course and any controversy off course, truly remarkable.
Cobbles are pointless in a Grand Tour.
Most of the field are not cobble specialists. We don't want GC Contenders to be put out by crashing into hay bales on day 5.
Crashes ruined the 2021 TdF - by the time they got to the mountains all of Pogacars GC opponents were either carrying injuries or had run out of team mates - none of them had an opportunity to save any energy for the last week - Pogacar is due some bad luck...
The cobble specialists cannot attack like a one day race - most of them have GC riders to protect. Most of the riders will spend the next 2 days recovering and sitting up.
It's pointless. Sponsors love it but it ruins the spectacle of a Grand Tour.
Totally agree, but so excited Simon got the W
lance disagrees
Worth listening to The Move from last night? Haven’t watched it this tour, listened to every episode last year
@@nerocoaching oh yea one of the better ones imo
Crap...cobbles are great.
A tour winner is the rider who is the designated to be the best overall rider. The best overall performer for tt, climbing, sprinting, classics type stages everything & every aspect of cycling including mastering the elements. Cobbles are a big part of riding in Europe and should be part of the mix of a tour to help decide the overall winner.
The organisers may have added cobbles to throw a spanner in the works to make out comes less predictable...
The tours always favours the climbers....the cobbles have tested their skillsets.
I'd prefer the removal of race radios.....that would really mix things up.
Spittin facts
100% agree, there should be no place in a road bike stage race for cobbled or gravel stages. We need more mountain top finishes and longer time trials.
Well said!!! Why put in extra risk?
I agree, I’m not a fan of gravel or cobbles in the TDF. If they really wanted to add a cobble stage, they should put it near the end… or maybe it should be a time trial so it isn’t so effected by position of riders is in the peloton.
Your opinion is wrong :) You should learn to ride cobbles or stmh
I would like to see more cobble stages, its a part of racing
There’s a whole season of cobbled classics to watch cobbled races
@@nerocoaching never enough cobbles 😁
@@iimmolarious7636 more cobbles I say! The fact that there are cobbled classics only reinforces that they are a core part of cycling, sure the tour started on cobbles
@@nerocoaching only a handful of cobbled races though there isn't actually that many of them especially not many tough ones.
@@nerocoaching why not expose this style of racing to a larger audience? It can only help expand the sport.
I can understand most of the points you make, but I don't necessarily agree that spectators only get to see one interesting stage and the rest of the Tour is ruined either way.
On the contrary, the fact that Roglic and O'Connor lost time should incentivise them to attack a lot sooner in the mountain stages and, Jumbo-visma in particular, to try to benefit even more from the fact they have two leaders.
It's very possible you'll see an even more 'open' battle in the mountains because of these time losses.
It makes it a crapshoot.
You sound like an F1 fan
respectfully disagree
100% disagree. It’s the Tour of France right? These roads are a part of French cycling. Why not take the Alpe out? It has too many turn or the weather could be bad, or just start at the bottom of it so riders don’t have to do the decent. G. Thomas crashes out of a grand tour because of a water bottle…should we not have those??
you make some good points, but i still do think its entertaining lol. your probs right on removing it.. it could bring in more viewership too tho..
Totally Agree with you Jesse! All this has done is ruined 3 Weeks of Racing !
One day races fine race on gravel , cobbles what ever .
So disappointed for Haig Caleb & especially Roglic !
l wanted to see potentially one of the best tours in years !! Disappointing really .
Instead of cobble stages for entertainment ASO should finally have medium mountain stages like Paris Nice or La Vuelta which can be more important for GC than summit finishes.
I think it is unfortunate that some riders had mechanical issues, but I think a stage like this highlights positioning skills, team weaknesses, etc. Why does Rog crash so much? Why does Pog crash so little? Why didn't Jumbo drop the full team back to Rog and then try to sweep up JV and try to stitch it back together? Why couldn't AG2R bring O'Conner back? Where was Pog's team? Why didn't some of these GC guys do Paris-Roubaix or other cobbled races to prepare? I agree that when GC detonates like it did today it will probably be a less exciting race towards the end since the gaps will already be somewhat established.
Grand tours are about finding the best overall road cyclist. Part of road cycling includes cobbles. There should be one cobble stage per tour!
Come on, please don’t get on this clickbaiting bandwagon… I’ll bite 😉. The gc time loss and crash damage was similar to a really windy echelons racing stage, yet everybody loves those. Cobbles are ok but the parcours design and security was a sh*t show. Too much opportunity to reform and start the gallop for the next section all over. Too much badly signaled road furniture.
What if it had rained?
@@nerocoaching that would have been even better 😎. Sure, more dependency on handling skills, but that’s not a bad thing right? Also smaller groups so less pre section stress. Off course there’s enormous stress where things are expected to break, but again: similar to a crosswind stage.
more pre sector stress In the rain because of increase chance of crashing on the sectors itself. You can’t remove the wind from stages, different to designing a single stage that specifically goes over sections that are highly likely to end some GC riders chances for things out of their control, exacerbated in the rain as well (thankfully for riders, no rain last night). Again I love it as a spectator for one day, hate it at a lover of the tour do France as a whole