Playing Mid Pocket Pairs from the Small Blind in Cash Game
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- Опубліковано 30 жов 2024
- Since I know many of you have asked me about playing mid pocket pairs in cash game, especially from out of position, I decided to make this quick Hand of the Day which covers this topic in detail. In this hand, the Hero gets dealt pocket pairs (pocket nines) in the small blind and when he's facing multi way things get really sticky. Should he call out of position? How should he play post flop? Let's discuss this and more in today's Hand of the Day.
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Hello Alec, Firstly Thanks for making such awesome content, I have learned a lot from you. At 5:56 you say we need to have 30% equity to justify calling a river, I believe we need roughly around ~20% equity to justify calling. Love from 🇮🇳
Thanks for the kind words. GL to you!
This is a very common mistake. We get involved preflop with a pocket pair with the intention to setmine. We dont flop a set, but the board is somewhat favourable for a pair, so we change our plan, and we end up spewing off a lot of money to someone, who either outflopped us or had us beat the whole time.
I dont think, someone is betting a worse pair than 9`s into 5 other players very often, so we essentially have a bluffcatcher. And when Villian have value, we have 2 outs to improve. That not a great spot to be in and especially not out of position.
So I actually dont have anything wrong with being really tight here and just say forget it and fold, even of the flop. And if I called the flop, I would certainly fold the turn even on a blank like this, rather than allowing myself to get sucked in even further.
Its way different, if we are heads up or even 3-way, but 6-way the value of any hand goes down dramatically, and people also tend to bluff less, when there are so many other players to get through.
Villain played this hand nicely, got max value with the small bet sizes, any bigger and he would lose his only customer for sure.
Fairly easy laydown. Great explanation Alec! Thanks!
Alleic you the only guy I listen to when it comes to poker , I like what you doing and saying .thanks
The only alternative play is this. Calling to the river may represent that you also hold a 10. When the river comes a J, an all in shove represents to the villain, that you have J10 and now made Full House. So in that case, I would either fold or shove on the Jack.
very correct
I agree with the pre-flop call to set mine. I incorporate a set mine strategy in my game almost always in spots like this, but on the flop at the 2/5 level in a 6 way pot your villain is always going to have some kind of Tx hand. He will rarely ever have a weak kicker with his hand. He's looking to get value from hands like 99+. As a long time poker player I don't measure my profit by hands where I maximize my profit but by hands where I minimize my losses. That flop and turn is such a dry board its hard to come up with literally any hands that could be bluffing. A 6 way pot of $25 is definitely appealing to bluff at, but when you realize that there are literally no hands he could be or would be bluffing you have to then put him on the range of AT, KT, QT, possible JT AA, KK, QQ and 33. Too dry of a board to be calling out of position with a marginal hand.
After Villian sees us call on this dry multiway flop he's unlikely to keep betting without atleast a T. Makes turn easy fold IMO.
As played, we could even consider turning our hand into a bluff (though we may need to be just a little deeper and would have to know Villian is capable of big laydowns). The Villians smaller sizing, especially on the river, basically turns his hand face up as Tx. Boats would almost certainly bet bigger to get max value from trips. We, however, certainly can have JT, 33, and JJ (though JJ is a little tougher to rep since we probably are 3betting that sometimes pre). Our uncapped range along with the fact that live 2/5 players almost never take this line (c/c, c/c, c/raise AI) as a bluff makes us look insanely strong to a thinking Villian.
Love your habd analysis videos Alec! I also agree with the others here, having the villain bet into so many people on the flop, hero should mostly make the discipline fold on the turn, if not on the flop.
I folded in my mind after the flop.
Again, a very good video. It‘s very important to narrow the ranges at every street👍 and think about, what your opponent thinks about what you have😃
Thanks Thomas.
I liked all the calls up until the river. If he had anything that 99 beat he'd check behind. Hero's line looks like someone with a T or 33, so it's unlikely Villain bets with anything other than 33, Tx, or JJ on the river. I'd really discount a bluff unless he was a known maniac (seems unlikely because he flatted preflop) because bluffing into five players and then someone who called the flop bet is...ambitious...to say the least.
Another great video. Alec.
Thanks my man!
great videos as always Alec
Alex, I disagree with the call on the flop here, in most situations. Their are just too many players in the hand, and if you call the 75$ on the flop, you still have a player to act behind you, whose default move could be to check any 10, to be able to go for the check-raise. How many value hands do we really beat? Not many. How many people are betting the flop against this many players with an Airball? Few Maniacs.
It's a correct call. The price is modest, and it's also consistent with a probe bet from a smaller pair. He might bet eights this way, and then shut down on the turn once called. At that point you could make a small blocking bet on the river and perhaps get value from such a hand. The other thing you're forgetting is that, 4% of the time, we will spike a nine on the turn, and then win stacks.
@Gary, You are correct.
I agree with the flop call. If the UTG raiser check-raises you, well, then, you fold. It's conceivable that villain is just stabbing at it. He could have overs with some additional equity, he could have a worse pair, or he might just be playing to the fact that no matter how many people there are in the pot, there are only two tens left in the *deck,* and he's likely to get it through if nobody has one. The chance that no one was dealt a ten in this situation is 44%, and since he's betting a third of the pot, this is a profitable bluff with any two cards assuming everyone else will fold without a ten. When you add in the fact that some of those tens might have been folded preflop (ten-two, for example) and the fact that he could pick up equity on the turn, this is getting better and better.
However, this is a rainbow board and very dry. Once he does get called, if he is stabbing with any two cards, he must consider the possibility that he's now in one of the 55% of situations where he's run into that ten-- or worse. There are literally no draws on this flop, so what is he getting called by? It's either a very strong range of nutted hands that will never fold, or it is someone who does not believe you and will therefore also not fold. And if that's the case, his only chance of getting you off of it is to bet STRONG and put your entire stack at risk, not take these small bites. But abandoning the bluff on the turn would be the most likely outcome. Good board to stab, poor board to barrel.
So for those reasons, we are in a very different situation once he bets the turn, and this is the time to dump the nines. If we are in a leveling war, here I would min-clickback the turn bet, not just call it, and then you can dump them if your opponent does anything other than fold. This is much better than paying off on the river; your minraise might even get certain players to fold a hand as strong as 9Ts.
The small bites scream either an overpair that is worried about the ten, or (what we have) a ten with possible kicker trouble.
Once he bets the river, it doesn't matter what price you're getting, you're just never good here.
Great One, as usual
Nice in depth hand break down! Thx. The villain took the hero to value town. That was nice sizing on his part and betting the flop.
that vilain is terrible calling a 5 x open with k10 of...when somoen can squueze btw...
don't forget the deep stacks...he is putting in only around 1.7% of his stack...and apparently this game is very amateurish...i mean, how often do 6 people see flops in tougher games? If I was pretty sure no one was going to raise, I'd put 1.7% of my stack in with nearly anything in a game like that, and this hand shows why.
This call preflop is purely for set mine and even on safe looking boards you should have discipline to fold it right away thats my opinion
Agree.
Yeah I had the same thought
Yeah you can't call thinking "Oh I'm set-mining" and then dump your rationale now that the board gives you a marginal made hand. That's donkey/gambler logic, just changing your reasoning process to give you a justification to keep putting money into the pot. The donkey always finds reasons to stay in the pot, and this is a great example of that. There's a so-so argument for calling the flop bet-- it's small, you could spike your boat, he may shut down on the turn- but once he bets the turn, all of this shrivels up.
ya no flop just drop
@Gregory Bo i often like to call one street for less than 1/2 pot size bet with my sets... I don't know if it's +Ev. But I am not sure if stacking off after calling one street is + Even... Except if 99 is an overpair on that board
You should have folded after the flop. I would love to play you heads up with your poker strategy.
Lol. You could play him, if you had any money. Go take a nap.
I would've blasted it preflop. This table is clearly full of donkeys and pocket nines is well ahead of all these capped calling ranges. Yeah, you could bust the table when you flop a set, but I think it's better to make a massive raise and force out all but one or two callers, then pot it with the rest of your stack on the flop if there's only one overcard or if you have any equity whatsoever. You could also make it sixty, re-open the betting action, and then get everyone to call because of "pot odds." I like this line too because once you re-open the betting action, if someone does have a premium pair that has your nines in bad shape that they flatted for deception, they won't be able to resist jamming, and you can safely fold. Then, once they've capped their ranges twice, you can apply maximum pressure on the flop.
Yeah, it's higher variance, but in principle, you have a range advantage right now. On the flop that may change. So you want to put more money in the pot right now. That's my logic.
Those bets were small to try and get called. Im my exp bluffs are usually bigger...
You can’t bluff somebody who has a ten, so what would be the point?
I would check raise on the flop maybe to $175 and if he calls or reraises then were done with the hand. Would of saved us around $250. I like that play over being a calling station.
Great stuff 👍, thanks.
Villan maxed out value, I would fold turn with 99, find a better spot to call of 350 on turn and river
Thanks Alec I really enjoy your content :)
If he's bluffing with seven-eight on an airball, he's likely going to bet bigger. These bets are saying "I don't want to lose you." And unless he's suicidal, he's not stabbing this flop with total air with many players yet to act. The most likely bluffs are the small wheely aces, which have showdown value, and QJ, which just improved to beat us on the river. You're just never good on this river.
In a multiway pot you dont even need to think about a fold. You have vulnerable SDV, you have only 2 outs and you are out of position. Maybe you can call the flop to increase fold equity, but thats it. Tourn is a fold if he bets again. The chance that someone has a better hand is huge! There will be better opportunities to catch bluffs.
I see way too many comments with a lack of logic.. A lot of people think this is a spot where you can 3-bet pre-flop. Being out of position and over 200 BB deep, 3 betting would be a terrible decision overall. Villain UTG decides to open for 5X. Now, for simplicity, we can narrow his range to 88-AA, KQo+ and perhaps some suited broadway combos etc. 4 more opponents decide to flat. But that's not to say you'll run into 10S-QQs. Overall, you are -EV against the UTG raiser. And even if you're not, you could easily be outplayed post flop.
Perhaps the hardest decision here is whether you should fold the turn . This is a very standard call on the flop, considering the favorable flop. On the turn, your opponent might still be betting some of his weaker middle pair for protection. I think the river is a clear fold but given the pot odds it makes it super tempting to call. But again, assuming he's never bluffing the river, you can't be any part of his range. Villain won't just be value betting any hands worst than 9s so it's a clear fold.
Any time I have someone tell me I play well...I say..Alec taught me.. Check out his youtube channel. Lol.. I'm doing my bit to pay it forward.. thanks. You really have made me a better player.
Thanks Gigi, much appreciated.
Can Jacob min raise the flop? What would that mean?
Isn't it nearer 4 to 1 so 20% equity needed
Yes, his math was also wrong on the river too.
Indeed, on the river it's call 205 to win 1005 that's 20.4%. Even if you'd take a 4% rake into account it'd be call 205 to win 965, still only 21.2%. So quite a bit less than Alec's 30% but I'd say you still don't necessarily need to call with nines here. Or arrive on the river with these nines in the first place.
On the turn when V bets $145, the $450 shown in the center includes V's $145, so Torelli is correct On the river he says 3.5:1, which is off, as $205 * 3.5 =$717.50 when there's $800 in the pot.
what do u mean? call 145 to win 450 is 25% on the turn,then on the river its 3.5 to 1 thats between 20 and 25 isnt that right?
@vernon padilla Not necessarily, if you play a balanced game and avoid bet sizing tells there's no "call me" bet or "bluff go away" bet. No idea how that suits this situation, it's been a year since I've watched this video and I'm not watching it again ;p
That’s bet on the river is what I like to call an extra value meal.
Great stuff alec..thanks. gat to go to one of your live semirars.
Thanks for the support.
Can anyone please explain to me ; that river bet of the villain after the J is dropped? Specifically, why the villain did not think that the marty might not be playing all the while with Pocket JJ?
Should the villain have it checked, instead of risking the $205?
Takeaway: it's generally bad to call when you're at the bottom of your range
great video although maths incorrect. on the river it's call 205 to win 1210 as u always include your bet so its actually 16.9% .... please let me know if you disagree .. thanks
You don't include your own bet. Google it
Just fold 99 preflop out of position
@vernon padilla fish
As a professional GFO[game feelsense optimal] player, marty should check shove river repping more strong hands.
Lol like the villain would have folded his set in a dry board heads up. He would've called your shove without thinking twice.
Do u have any mor did those hoodies for sale
ha-ha....very good teacher....
Can someone send me the link to the free content. I cant find it.
Thanks
What are the chances the opener has 10-aa? Seems less then 20%. The callers have that beat like no percent. I like the three bet
Hey love this keep goin
I would just fold on the flop because there are players behind me might check raise.
I don't think he would be bluffing in this situation hes showing a lot of strength he bet on the flop with 3 people behind him sure he could just be betting an ace high but you have to be pretty strong here to do this since a lot of people called the raise pre flop there has to be pairs and tens in there ranges. Then on the turn when we check to him against and we call we might as well flip our cards face up and say we have a pair cause its a text book thing to do. But on the river if insta shoves i think i would call but if he thinks about it i would the insta shove is a classic tell of bluffing and the think shove is hes trying to look weak to get value from weaker hands
Four bet would been cheaper .
I would have raised instead of calling the pre-flop bet.
J T seems a reasonable hand to have, what about raising? Just saying....
alec how can we send you hands man???
How about a small raise on the flop to help negate the positional disadvantage and also to get some information? If villain doesn't have a ten or maybe an overpair, he would have a hard time calling, and raising 100-120 there is still cheaper than what hero paid to call the turn with. If villain can call or re-raise a flop raise, you know you are toast and you just don't put any more money in the pot. Cheaper, and it might even get a tight villain to fold JJ+ due to the multiway action... Just my thoughts..anyone have an opinion on this?
B. Alvn I used to take this approach to poker but I think it’s bad to raise for information because:
A) while we might some times fold out JJ (highly unlikely as JJ could still call again and JJ would certainly 3bet pre a lot also) we also fold out hands that we beat such as 88-44. If action goes check check turn, we can safely bet for value against these holdings whereas raising will always fold them out.
2) a raise is not much cheaper than calling a flop and turn bet (25 bucks cheaper by ur example) but it ends our hand if we get raised on the flop. Where as by calling flop and turn we get to see 2 more cards and a 8% chance to hit our 9.
3) we don’t get value from bluffs that fire flop, turn and give up on river. Of course we sometime fold the best hand vs aggressive opponents who fires the river by check calling flop and turn. But how often are they triple barreling when we call flop and turn? If the player is aggressive enough to do so, he would be aggressive enough to raise our check raise as a bluff on the flop aswell, or float our checkraise on the flop and take it on the turn.
Do you really think anyone is that aggressive (or crazy) to reraise a check-raise in a 6-way pot on that board, when it is really quite likely you have the ten you are representing? I guess I'm more in the "aggression is better than passivity" camp, and think just check/calling 2 or 3 streets is not optimal poker.
B. Alvn I’m saying the guy that is crazy enough to tripple barrel bluff will. I didn’t say we should call 3 streets. What I Implied was we only need to call twice to get to river while seeing two more cards and we can comfortably fold river when we know we are beat. If we check raise the flop, we are essentially turning our good value hand into a bluff, which is not necessary. Lets say u check raised flop and he flat calls ur raise. What do u do now on turn? U simply check fold, lost more money then u would if u simply called flop and check fold turn. Check raising flop is getting nothing done while losing more money
B. Alvn Also when u check raise, there is still the BB and UTG left to act, you are opening up your stack to both the BB and UTG who coulda easily checked with a 10 themselves, if you flat call and utg and bb raises, you can simply fold while risking little. If you raise the flop and BB and/or UTG calls, wouldn’t u lose more money?
there is just UTG who already checked. umm...the way the hand actually played out, it cost him more money, not less. he called again on the turn and the folded on the river to a pretty much non-threatening card. villain may well have had a smaller pair or just ace high...i just think check-call check-call check-fold is as weak as it gets and gives no useful information and no fold equity at any point either.
how can you say check-raising is "getting nothing done" when villain could fold? then you win the pot. winning the pot is getting a lot done in my book...with the added bonus of finding out early in the hand if anyone else is strong or not, before paying off on the turn and facing a difficult decision on the river.
To many players set mining is stupid here. You will be against open ended and flushes more often than not. Reraise to 100 take the money on the board ofr get heads up
I see hands like this all the time, particular in LA where big multi-way flops are so common. PreF raise is so tempting to iso, but as you said, odds are you're going to put yourself in a bad spot post, so fit or fold is pretty tried and true. Having said that, you didn't really comment on the fact that the original raiser is opening 5x here UTG, so whether we flat or raise, doesn't there have to be some thought about the UTG player? If that's some LAG who we can put on a pretty wide range, then is there an argument for a pretty big raise there? I would think like $140 probably ends the hand, otherwise you can still set mine but against a much thinner field. If someone 4-bets you can still walk away. Just curious.
It's a bunch of donkeys. The UTG raiser is going to four-bet you if he has the nuts, in which case you just lit $125 on fire, or, he's going to flat, another guy will enter the pot because "pot odds" and then you'll see a flop in a $500 pot with an SPR of two. You will flop middle pair, because overcards will come almost all of the time. Someone will likely bet into you and you'll be forced to fold. Sure, you'll hit a set sometimes. And maybe if the flop comes AKX, you can rep the nuts since you 3-bet it and you'll get away with it. But it's extremely risky to do that against an UTG 5x raising range especially when you got no blockers and the pot's likely to go multiway. Bloating the pot when you're marginally ahead is not the way to win in these games. Gotta flat with the nines. Higher SPR, more customers to flop a weak draw and pay you off when you hit.
I say just fold. Are all the other pkayers loose that loose? It's a 5x BB bet and 3 calls ahead of you...
Should retitle the video: "Not Quite Playing Mid Pocket Pairs in NLH"
The Villain's bet on the Turn told me everything I needed to know about his hand. Insta-fold time! He might as well have played his cards face-up.
Where do these guys play? I have some mortgage payments coming up 🤣
Still think you were hiding your chips from that guy as polk said.
Lock her up! Did you see my crowds?!
First mistake was calling the 75 $ too many guys in the hand for someone not to have a 10
Ridiculous. On the flop he has an underpair to the board and he's out of position. This is not a good check/call, check/call situation UNLESS he has knowledge of his opponent suggesting the opponent is known to either frequently bluff or simply overplay his hand.
Big 3 bet preflop cures all. This hand was played horribly.
Is it just me, or does the analysis here feel retrospective?
I get the feeling that’s what makes these poker content creators so successful. It’s easy to sound Iike a brilliant poker player when you know the outcome of the hand your analyzing
I knew he had king ten
I dislike this play. I think you are better off raise-folding the flop
obviously fold pre.
SnowToad - yep. Only call if I feel lucky. Set mining is a losing proposition. I might 3bet to thin the field or take it down.
Set mining with 99 in a 6 way pot is not really a losing proposition.
comedyfavorite - ever heard ppl whining about set losing vs straight draw, flush draw? Or made flush and straight. Sure you might win certain pot, but generally, you need to win big pots to justify set mining. Personally I don’t play for big pots, much easier to win many small pots over time.
I think Marty should have folded the turn
with that many in the pot its clearly at least a 3 bet with a strong a hand as nines maybe 5 i say make um pay to play :) face it they cant all be holding aces and kings lmao
Jeeze you like to talk...he could have any two random cards ....