Hi Colin, brilliant work there. I think you absolutely have found the issue, I has no idea there would be such a huge difference in speed! Agreed it will be the type of motor or maybe even the gearing used, I wonder if Bachmann would respond to an inquiry about gear ratios between these batches? If they do and can confirm it, it might be possible to add new gears to the old motors bogies??? I think the capacitor idea might not fix the reduced speed of the 2010 units, as we'd only be looking at 22uF non pol over the dcc plug. Gearing, or motor bogie swap would seem to be the way forward. Cheers Mike.
Mike, thank you! 👍 I suspect it is the characteristics of more-modern motors and the gear ratio is probably unchanged.🤔 Most certainly I will be contacting Bachmann (again) to see if they have a means of identifying the different motors (particularly those offered as spares).🧐 The solution is probably just to use like-motors. Will be investigating the possibilities in due course - Colin ⚡
Thanks for this upload. The conclusion you have arrived at, is one that I surmised. The motors are produced en masse to a given price, with clearly the manufacturers accepting there will be some disparity across the batch, and exacerbated when various batches, dating before and after, have their performance discrepancies subjected to scrutiny, and comparison. Overall your findings are presented to give viewers a balanced summary. Thank you.
Thank you. 👍 Whilst differing motor characteristics were the most probably cause it needed to be examined reasonably thoroughly rather than make assumptions. 🧐 In terms of the units operating on Ewhurst Green (and assuming they are the same fitting) it may be a case of swapping the newer 'faster' 4 BEP motors over with say those in the 2H units. 🙂 The blue /grey units belong to a friend and another possibility is to discuss how many units he needs faster motors for. 🤔 Another job to add to the list! ⚡
It has been quite a while when 5 BEL units came to visit! 👍 ua-cam.com/video/4yeucF68n7Y/v-deo.html I will submit a request for a repeat performance. 😎 My own pair of Umber & Cream 5 BEL units still need end couplings and I'm also awaiting replacement motorbogie (powered) wheels from Ultrascale before stripping them down. ⚡ BTW the history of the 5 BEL units is covered on my BloodandCustard website: www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-5BEL.html
That was an absolutely brilliant series of updates on surging. Cannot wait to test my emus now. Your layout looks fantastic, is there a video where you show it in its entrirety? Looking forward to the nexy update and catching up on your channel.
Chris - thank you for your kind words which are much appreciated! 👍 There may be further updates on surging in due course as I try to remedy the 4 BEP units although this will take some time. ⚡ I haven't undertaken a complete video yet, although there are a couple of videos which (1) cover the London-end scenic corner board and (2) a tour of the London end of the layout including the fold-down flap which enabled the baseboard to extend up to five-feet in width. 🙂 1. ua-cam.com/video/ipAy2jP3MhA/v-deo.html 2. ua-cam.com/video/Q3ba8mFWIII/v-deo.html The layout is also described at www.EwhurstGreen.com 🧐 Finally, you may find my www.BloodandCustard website of interest - Colin 🌞
Paul, Bachmann believe it may be down to difference with the newer motors and possibly even the components used on the PCBs.🤔 I will be looking to undertake some motor changes in due course and will post an update video when this happens.🙂 Colin
hi your last train had 13 coaches how may were driving coaches , if its 3 or 4 you must be drawing around 500mA ,nice to see the southern rail green running ....Tony
Tony - Thank you for your interest! 👍 The 13-car train comprised 4 CEP + 4 CEP + 4 CEP + MLV and in real life would have included six motorcoaches (two per 4 CEP) plus the MLV (essentially a 'motorcoach'). However, in model form only one motorcoach in each 4 CEP is powered. So with the MLV, that yields four number powered bogies in the model train. ⚡ By comparison, the model 6 HAP units [@4.15] all have a powered motorcoaches, so the 12-car HAP formation had six number powered bogies in the model train (the other vehicles being Driving Trailer Composites)🙂 Ewhurst Green regularly has DCC sound-chipped locomotives visiting and although never measured, these also have a considerable power consumption (particularly when running doubled headed or top & tailed). However, the layout's DC controllers do have a 3amp output. 🧐 Lest it be of interest, currently the longest train was 18-coaches behind a Hornby (visiting) Duke of Gloucester (locomotives haul coaches - electric multiple units and Pullman coaches are often referred to as 'cars'). 😉 I hope this assists - Colin 🌞
Hello Colin, i think part of your problem could be pick-up, due to oxidation of the nickel silver rail head. I operate my on Southern Electric emu’s on DCC and from times to time I experience surges or a lack of pick-up. My remedy is either to clean the track with a carbon block or alternatively I fill an old Wills track-cleaning wagon with lighter fluid and run it in front of one of my emu’s, cleans the track very quickly.
Bazza - Thank you for your interest and much appreciated input. 👍 Interesting that you have experienced surging although it it cyclical?🤔 In this instance the cyclical surging has found to be caused by different motor characteristics in the latest models - Colin.🙂
Had you thought about putting a resistor in line with the faster motor to bring it down to the approximate speed of the slower unit? This may be cheaper and easier than swapping the motor.
The question would be are the new motors linearly faster or are their characteristics significantly different. 🤔 True a resistor could be added to the blanking plug. However, in taking the body off changing the motor isn't that onerous (I have a few floating around).😉
Can't you 'tune' the DCC parameters to match the speed and acceleration of the units to be the same. Charlie of Chadwick Model Railway explains how to do this in one of his recent videos when he uses double headed loco consists.
Thank you for your thought about DCC controller matching! 👍 This was touched on in Technical video 2 when a DCC controller was tested with the two (visiting) sound-chipped refurbished 4 CEP units. 🧐 However, Ewhurst Green is a DC layout, the surging is occurring on DC and the three Technical videos explore this (including different DC controllers). ⚡
Hi Colin, brilliant work there. I think you absolutely have found the issue, I has no idea there would be such a huge difference in speed! Agreed it will be the type of motor or maybe even the gearing used, I wonder if Bachmann would respond to an inquiry about gear ratios between these batches? If they do and can confirm it, it might be possible to add new gears to the old motors bogies??? I think the capacitor idea might not fix the reduced speed of the 2010 units, as we'd only be looking at 22uF non pol over the dcc plug. Gearing, or motor bogie swap would seem to be the way forward. Cheers Mike.
Mike, thank you! 👍
I suspect it is the characteristics of more-modern motors and the gear ratio is probably unchanged.🤔
Most certainly I will be contacting Bachmann (again) to see if they have a means of identifying the different motors (particularly those offered as spares).🧐
The solution is probably just to use like-motors. Will be investigating the possibilities in due course - Colin ⚡
Thanks for this upload. The conclusion you have arrived at, is one that I surmised. The motors are produced en masse to a given price, with clearly the manufacturers accepting there will be some disparity across the batch, and exacerbated when various batches, dating before and after, have their performance discrepancies subjected to scrutiny, and comparison. Overall your findings are presented to give viewers a balanced summary. Thank you.
Thank you. 👍
Whilst differing motor characteristics were the most probably cause it needed to be examined reasonably thoroughly rather than make assumptions. 🧐
In terms of the units operating on Ewhurst Green (and assuming they are the same fitting) it may be a case of swapping the newer 'faster' 4 BEP motors over with say those in the 2H units. 🙂
The blue /grey units belong to a friend and another possibility is to discuss how many units he needs faster motors for. 🤔
Another job to add to the list! ⚡
Hello Colin. Does The Brighton Belle ever race through Ewhurst Green, that d be good?!😏🧐
It has been quite a while when 5 BEL units came to visit! 👍
ua-cam.com/video/4yeucF68n7Y/v-deo.html
I will submit a request for a repeat performance. 😎
My own pair of Umber & Cream 5 BEL units still need end couplings and I'm also awaiting replacement motorbogie (powered) wheels from Ultrascale before stripping them down. ⚡
BTW the history of the 5 BEL units is covered on my BloodandCustard website:
www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-5BEL.html
Thank you for your help.
Pleased you found it useful - thank though! 👍
Good deduction!
Thank you! 🌞
That was an absolutely brilliant series of updates on surging. Cannot wait to test my emus now.
Your layout looks fantastic, is there a video where you show it in its entrirety?
Looking forward to the nexy update and catching up on your channel.
Chris - thank you for your kind words which are much appreciated! 👍
There may be further updates on surging in due course as I try to remedy the 4 BEP units although this will take some time. ⚡
I haven't undertaken a complete video yet, although there are a couple of videos which (1) cover the London-end scenic corner board and (2) a tour of the London end of the layout including the fold-down flap which enabled the baseboard to extend up to five-feet in width. 🙂
1. ua-cam.com/video/ipAy2jP3MhA/v-deo.html
2. ua-cam.com/video/Q3ba8mFWIII/v-deo.html
The layout is also described at www.EwhurstGreen.com 🧐
Finally, you may find my www.BloodandCustard website of interest - Colin 🌞
Good video, like.
Pleased you found it useful - thank though! 👍
Hi Colin. Can you remind us of Bachmann's take on this issue?
Paul, Bachmann believe it may be down to difference with the newer motors and possibly even the components used on the PCBs.🤔
I will be looking to undertake some motor changes in due course and will post an update video when this happens.🙂
Colin
hi your last train had 13 coaches how may were driving coaches , if its 3 or 4 you must be drawing around 500mA ,nice to see the southern rail green running ....Tony
Tony - Thank you for your interest! 👍
The 13-car train comprised 4 CEP + 4 CEP + 4 CEP + MLV and in real life would have included six motorcoaches (two per 4 CEP) plus the MLV (essentially a 'motorcoach'). However, in model form only one motorcoach in each 4 CEP is powered.
So with the MLV, that yields four number powered bogies in the model train. ⚡
By comparison, the model 6 HAP units [@4.15] all have a powered motorcoaches, so the 12-car HAP formation had six number powered bogies in the model train (the other vehicles being Driving Trailer Composites)🙂
Ewhurst Green regularly has DCC sound-chipped locomotives visiting and although never measured, these also have a considerable power consumption (particularly when running doubled headed or top & tailed). However, the layout's DC controllers do have a 3amp output. 🧐
Lest it be of interest, currently the longest train was 18-coaches behind a Hornby (visiting) Duke of Gloucester (locomotives haul coaches - electric multiple units and Pullman coaches are often referred to as 'cars'). 😉
I hope this assists - Colin 🌞
@@ewhurstgreenColin thanks for that information that's a lot of driving coaches
Pleased to assist!
Hello Colin, i think part of your problem could be pick-up, due to oxidation of the nickel silver rail head. I operate my on Southern Electric emu’s on DCC and from times to time I experience surges or a lack of pick-up. My remedy is either to clean the track with a carbon block or alternatively I fill an old Wills track-cleaning wagon with lighter fluid and run it in front of one of my emu’s, cleans the track very quickly.
Bazza - Thank you for your interest and much appreciated input. 👍
Interesting that you have experienced surging although it it cyclical?🤔
In this instance the cyclical surging has found to be caused by different motor characteristics in the latest models - Colin.🙂
Had you thought about putting a resistor in line with the faster motor to bring it down to the approximate speed of the slower unit? This may be cheaper and easier than swapping the motor.
The question would be are the new motors linearly faster or are their characteristics significantly different. 🤔
True a resistor could be added to the blanking plug. However, in taking the body off changing the motor isn't that onerous (I have a few floating around).😉
Can't you 'tune' the DCC parameters to match the speed and acceleration of the units to be the same. Charlie of Chadwick Model Railway explains how to do this in one of his recent videos when he uses double headed loco consists.
Thank you for your thought about DCC controller matching! 👍
This was touched on in Technical video 2 when a DCC controller was tested with the two (visiting) sound-chipped refurbished 4 CEP units. 🧐
However, Ewhurst Green is a DC layout, the surging is occurring on DC and the three Technical videos explore this (including different DC controllers). ⚡
Brand new Pendolino motors are different in their power.
I'm not surprised and doubt if there is a specific specification that ensures compatibility.