If I didn't have one already, I'd have to go with the 58 mainly because of all the options it opens up for portafilters and tools. But I do have a Pro 2 and really enjoy it. Won't be upgrading for a while I imagine.
Got lucky, found the Flair Pro 2 on some random store online for 245 on sale plus coupons Found out about the Flair 58 the next day but to be honest, I feel more comfortable with the pro as someone who is more inexperienced with coffee.
I really enjoyed this review. I've been fascinated with the 58 since it was announced as it addressed a lot of my concerns with the pro2. With that said this review reaffirmed for me that the even though it may not have The pre heating features I've been looking forward to, the pro2 is such s competent machine. As someone who likes manual cars, manual film lenes and all things manually involved, I look forward to adding a flair to my manual device collection. Just 7 more weeks of saving and the flair 58 might be mine once it eventually restocks.
Already having a Pro2 - whilst the 58 might be something i look to in the future - no review has, as yet tempted me to 'upgrade' to the 58 - but a great and informative comparison - thanks!
Another thing to consider is that you can change basket sizes in the 58, while the Pro2 has a fixed basket size. so you can from 10g baskets to triples and anything in between. Which gives a lot more flexibility in recipes. I'm 'better' at puck prep in the 58mm world too. But as you stated, different machines for different customers, both are definitely a great choice.
pro2 isn't limited by basket size but for same recipe you'll have to downsize the amount (thicker puck with same dose of grinds). pi*radius^2=surface area, so what percentage of the 58 surface area does the pro2 have, use that percentage of coffee and that percentage of the final brew weight, same fineness of grinding could be possible that way as well...
Great video. I just have one critique when it comes to your videos: the TV show clips. I don't think you need them and if anything, it takes away from the quality of your videos. I find that it interrupts the flow of your videos.
Omg... I didnt say anything but... It was the first thing i was thinking. Your content is way more interesting than the memes. We can get memes everywhere.
good. Also something worth mentioning is Flair Pro2 is less demanding when it comes to grinder. For the same dossage, Pro2 doesn't need to grind that fine due to the smaller filter basket.
I'd choose the pro 2, mainly for the price. But also because most days we'd be using it for just one or two shots. Once or twice a week, maybe two or three shots, so the workflow is not enough of an issue to justify another $200. thanks for the review!
Thanks for the honest review, Kyle! I have decided to purchase the Flair 58 because of this comparison. I currently have the Flair Pro 2, but I’m planning to have a coffee cart for my business, and I think the 58 is definitely the best choice for me. I’m struggling with tamping the coffee puck on the Pro 2, but I guess it will be easier on the 58. Cheers!
Really enjoyed the review and I chose the Pro 2 because I needed a portable espresso machine. I’m usually an early riser and so spending extra time isn’t a deal breaker for me
For me I am totally all for the manual lever style machine, so don't get me wrong when I say I honestly can't see how there is $500 worth of machine in the Flair 58 when a Gaggia Classic Pro can be had with all its internals such as a boiler, temp sensor, pump and steaming capability for a cheaper price
less is more. I've owned budget/cheaper machines and all those parts are a liability. I am not saying the GCP is a bad machine it's just when you're getting more complexity manufacturers have to skimp on parts at that price point. The flair is a simple design: virtually indestructible, requires little to no maintenance, doesn't need electricity, highly portable, and offers a level of control and feedback that even machines in the thousands of dollars cannot do. It's an incredible value.
Hi, i go for the flair58. this will gonna be my only espresso machine. For me as a single espresso fan a press like this is enough. No bigger machines with stuff to maintain and clean needed. But as i want to get as close as possible to the quality of espresso made with big machines in short time, the flair58 is better (preheat, cleaning, amount of coffee, quality of espresso).
Would you be able to use the heating element of the 58 with a wifi smart plug by any chance? Like could I used google assistant to heat the flair 58 when I wake up instead of going into my kitchen to get the process started?
Hey Kyle, awesome video, man. I noticed your cuts and transitions got way better, especially on this video. Wanted to compliment you on that! I have the Flair Pro 2, and personally, after thinking about it, I don't think I see as much of a reason to upgrade. At the price point for the Flair 58, I think I would opt for a La Pavoni or something similar that also offers built-in milk steaming. Yeah, the 58mm compatibility is nice to have. But I think a good tamper and maybe a distribution tool is all that would benefit from that, and there are options for a LaPavoni setup in that regard. It's definitely still a contender, and for someone looking for a Pure Espresso setup, it might be the best option. But for a more general consumer, I think there are other good alternatives to consider as well. Still, a great video and a good comparison take. Keep up the great content, Kyle!
Okay the day to decide arrived unexpectedly. For this week only Flair is putting most of their goods with a 20% sale. Naturally the Flair 58 is not included. So I decided on the Flair Pro 2. I guess price won out over a 58 mm thingy.
I was considering Flair 58 since I wanted to opt in espresso and especially lever machine since they are more forgiving and it’s easier to get pressure feedback but ended up buying La Pavoni Europiccola. Having boiler is so nice and easier even with small basket which means smaller dosing. But it’s fine and you can steam milk.
La Pavoni is a beauty. And easy to fix with many spares availible. I already have a semi auto but I have a look from time to time if I can find a cheap Europicolla and restore it.
I would stay with my pro 2 for now, as I'm usually only making a single cup of cappuccino in the morning. I am getting quite comfortable with the process. I just simply pour the boiling water into chamber for preheat while I grind the beans by hand. The 58 model requires 10 mins preheat time and the electric component are my main concerns. it means that it has to be setup somewhere near an electric outlet and the possibility of electrical component failure will occur eventually. Nevertheless if someday my Pro 2 breaks, I might consider the 58 as it's pretty sexy piece of machine.
I have the flair signature, which is pretty much the same as the pro 2, just a smaller portafilter/brew chamber. I like it because I share a kitchen, and it's easy to put away and store after I finish pulling my shots
Thanks a lot for this comparison. I’ve just ordered 58X to start my journey with espresso making. Tbh because of money. I don’t see preheating chamber as problem as I have Fellow kettle and it’s fits perfectly on top of it. I have to boil water anyway. I was thinking about some semiautomatic machine but then realized I really suck at cleaning and maintenance so that’s not an option 😅 For travel I’m gonna stay with aeropress or plastic V60.
It is very fun how niche market go into regress. Instead of small, lot of them software, fixes required to make machines like Breville perfect, it is now obsession with levers. Even more fun is that the more fans are focused on this and constantly discuss this - the more ordinary people move to capsule machines. At least this is that retail statistics tell us. It is time to stand and loudly tell that the king is naked.
Relatively new to your channel, and appreciating your enthusiasm and video editing! Just rewatched this after finding your original Pro 2 review, and I think you're right about differing audiences. I was, if someone were getting into espresso for the first time (good grinder first, of course) how does the 58 compare to boiler machines? Does it give you more bang for your buck? How far up in price do you need to go before a machine with a boiler is pulling shots as good as a 58? Can you get something comparable for the same price? It can't steam milk, but are you making other compromises?
Great video Kyle and thank you for the comparison. Have you got any opinion regarding the Flair 58 compared to the La Pavoni Europiccola. La Pavoni is so popular but significantly more expensive than the Flair 58. Do you think the price difference is justified? Is there a significant difference in the shot quality between those two? Thanks
Thankyou for your review. I think the durability of 58 must be better than pro2. One of the reason I am interested in this kind of handpresso is the easiness of maintenance.
Coffee is a hell of a drug. Double espresso only in the weekend and I do things around the house like crazy to realize I'd have to wait at least another 2-3 hours to take another shot.
To me I would stick with the Pro 2 after watching these videos, because once you find a reliable way to attach your Pro 2 to the Kettle for preheating, it is not much of a difference. The 58 still requires hot water, so you not really cutting out the kettle part. Having more electrical components is a downside in the longevity of that product imo. To me the only real upside is the larger capacity, the ability to change basket, and for those who do multiple shots easier workflow. What interest me is what is the temperature it preheats to on the 58. Because you could get the Pro 2 to go REAL high.
Interesting takeaway... I would've opted for the portability and price angle of the Pro 2 Using a La Pavoni; I can see the merit of the rapid portafilter and basket exchange on the Flair 58.
Kyle, I'd be interested in a shot comparison of your typical shot on the Pro 2 (16ish grams) vs the shot on the 58, You'll get a more similar bed depth and I'd be interested to see what effect this has on the shots. Food for thought, Thanks for putting out these videos.
Hey Kyle, great video. I really liked some of the detailed edits (like the transition screens and the bottom left pricing animation). Was fun to see a blind taste test as well! Might be cool to see more of these in future comparison videos.
Once i noticed how much your torso is moving up and down (bouncing even) i cant stop seeing it. The video is very usefuo for me though, great information
I always get more body and mouthfeel from my Flair Pro than from my Robot with its 58mm portafilter. This is also true when I get an espresso from a shop. I think smaller diameter portafilters give more body. I do get more clarity from a 58mm portafilter. Overall, I think I like smaller diameter portafilters more than 58mm.
Firstly I'm so excited about the 58 announcement (even I post the launching video on my IG before Flair announce it on their official). But then, I just realize about how the price is higher than what I expected.. Considering of that (and how much I doing some research and upgrade some essential tools for this machine), I choose to upgrade the grinder first. This is a better option for me, except if anyone wants to buy my Flair Pro 2 and every tools that I have, so I'd thinking again about upgrading it to 58..
I love looks of pro 2 exept that silicone on the handle... I wish there is wood trim avalable for it but im not shure how this would look actually. It is more streamlined and sleek and it feels like original or so. 58 seems to be better option for my routine and i travle only with aeropress so it suits my needs better.... And it has wood! Im still deciding which one to get
Hi , im new here and this is my first time to comment of any vlog,Anyway just wanna say that ur vid really help me alot actually pro 2 is on my bucket list but lucky i saw this vid, which is i can upgrade for 58.Thank you!
Aside from the obvious issue of milk steaming, would you recommend the Flair 58 over a similarly priced espresso machine, like the Gaggia Classic Pro or Rancilio Sylvia for just espresso?
I just ordered a Pro 2, as opposed to the 58. One reason for doing so that you didn't go into is that the smaller Pro2 portafilter is less finicky than a 58mm, if you don't have a great, great espresso grinder. So for me the Pro2 seems like the perfect to companion to my filter/pour over setup, since the Pro2 won't be my daily driver - filter will, and I intend to use my current filter-focused (but espresso capable) grinder!
Seems to be room for a lot of variations in the flair line up.. make the heater optional offer heater on "lesser" models move the brew head lock and the hook that pulls the piston back up into their other machines.
I was gonna buy a pro 2 then i made a decision to wait and save up more and 3 days after that they dropped the presale date for the 58. I scooped the 58. Cant wait till it comes.
Good review. The price of the 58 is too expensive for my blood. Plus the electronics is too clunky for me. Plus you can't just disassemble and pack it away after use. I am going to wait for a cheaper verson of the 58.
I have been using pump machines for years now, and recently bought the Flair Pro 2. Compared to my Quickmill Carola (58mm E61 machine) I find that the shots from the Flair are much sweeter, rounder, very syrupey, very "italian" ristretto-style. While the Carola shots are more clear, but also tend to be harsher. Personally, I do prefer the Flair; not only is the result more pleasant, but also the entire process is just so beautiful. However, when it comes to convenience and speed, the Carola will of course always win. The Flair 58 for me doesn't feel that interesting; for the price I'd rather go for the Cafelat Robot, or the Sonic S7 (if that will ever be released).
If you are going to leave the Flair at home, then you should serious think about buying the larger Flair 58. I probably would buy the Pro 2 with additional options simply because I want to test out different coffees and grinders by myself. The Flair might be better if you need to crank out more than two shots on a various occasion.
There is an option to purchase flair 58 without electricity which I am thinking to buy. I don't like the clunky wire cable of the normal flair 58 version. Dobyou think I will have much problem with manually preheating the brew? Please share your thought. This will be my first brewing machine.
Yes there is! I talk about this in another flair video I’ve released recently. I think it’ll be fine as long as you use steam to preheat. I’ve tried it and works well. Though I do prefer the electronics
Hi! Love your videos! Can a change in grinder will make the pro 2 extraction get close to the 58’s taste? Like to get more body by having a conical grinder at higher rpm. Or more clarity by using a flat burr with low rpm? Thank you
Hey kyle, Thanks for the great video I would like to have your opinion if i should get the flair 58 with a standalone steamer or a heat exchanger like cime co-01 or vbm domobar jr Either the flair or the hx would be at the same price Interested to hear your opinion 🙏
thanks for the video, beside the portability and other features, how does flair 58 compare to pro 2, just in terms of esspresso body and taste ? Does it worth the extra money ? I'm looking forward to upgrade my pro2 to 58 if the difference worth it.
Did you use the same grind setting for each device? Would a finer grind for the 58 automatically equate with a more complex shot, even without the heating advantage? Just curious!
I did not. I ground slightly finer for the 58 to dial them in. The 58 in this test proved higher clarity than the pro 2 but both excellent shots. And to answer your question, this is highly possible!
@@KyleRowsell Thank you! Then perhaps the higher clarity in the 58 is due more to finer grinding than enhanced heating? Thanks for such a thorough analysis of the two!
@@rosalynstory3271 I don't think it was due to the heating but the layout of the coffee, if you have a smaller but taller basket, you get different extraction results vs a wider and more shallow layer of coffee that the water has to push through. So THAT can affect the extraction results with stuff like flavour clarity as well as body. The grind may play a part as well.
I would go with the 58, any suggestions on a grinder to match the 58 that might also serve as a dirner for drip? or would it be better to get 2 ? I am thinking of all ground F4, any other suggestions would be very helpful
before i buy, do you know roughly how long it would take to make espresso for 3 people? I don't want to be in the kitchen for 40 minutes getting everyone a coffee lol
Top notch presentation. I have the Pro 2 and a big plus is that I can brew 23.5 grams of coffee. Not sure I want to spend the money on the 58 and only get a 15 gram dose. Maybe it is possible to get porta filters of bigger capacity.
@@rowdyblakley8669 Flair website says the volume output of both pro and 58 are in the mid 50's, I think - you can check (maybe pro minimally higher than the 58). So, you would still be limited in volume, if you were looking for something like a 3:1 ratio with 22g in the basket, aka needing 66 ml.
Hi Kyle. I love your videos despite the sometimes frequent UA-camr edit cuts lol. I really love the Flair machines and I think the fact that the 58 has a fairly different design to me indicates the two machines have different purposes. If I was getting something to be my every day consistent espresso maker, I'd probably spring for the 58. The more stationary design and the integrated heater all point to that. But if I wanted something more on the occasional experimentation side of making, and of course the ability to transport the maker, the regular Flair is definitely the way to go. I prefer filter coffee myself so I think I'd get a Flair classic or pro when I wanna go back to trying out espresso (got rid of a cheap capresso machine I got bundled with my grinder on craigslist) Oh all that said, I know the Flair takes slightly coarser coffee than espresso. Would the finest settings on an Ode be able to deliver that fine setting?
Honestly... I think I'd be comparing this against the Europiccola. I don't make milk drinks, so this thing looks great to me. I already have a Robot and I paid extra for it because of the streamlined workflow over the classic Flair.
Great Review, but after almost a year with my pro 2, i have to say: resitance in the pull is offen not due to grind size, but rather dose and tamp pressure. I ground to coarse on light roast, to make water flow at 18g, but then it was too under extracted. What help was a max dose of 17g for me, finer grind and pre set level and tamp pressure from the creama coffee tool. My workflow is: heat up porta filter and brew chamber on a mokka pot base until the temp sticker shows 95°C, get some water boiling. Take off the porta filter and wipe clean (careful, hot), ground coffee in, fluff up with wdt, level and tamp, then when the water is boiling, immediately pull of the steaming brew chamber, put on porta filter, pour water straight of the boil and 10sec preinfusion (again, otherwise it's too much resistance). Perfect shots 80% of the time (100% if I use a single coffee and have it set)
Great comparison, extremely thorough and that preheating tip is genius, although no idea if its intentional. Have to say I wish the Pro2 didn't have to have the copper accent as that's a very choice colour that might not integrate into every space well, and I wish the underside of the lever and chassis and general was a little neater. I think the 58 is just a weird space in the espresso world and kind of ends up a bit too close to a traditional device considering you have to plug it in anyway. You lose a lot of what makes the flair products great (portability, no electricity), and don't gain a lot of the benefits of an automatic machine offers. Honestly I'm leaning more towards a Flair classic, real bare bones and just practice to get the pressure right or buy the gauge seperate
Neither. Flair Signature so far the best pick. Reasons: Flair 58 is very awkward with the cable dangling around when washing the brewhead, whether you are careful or not/like it or not. Flair Pro2 PGK piston cannot be pushed out from top of brew chamber using the plastic tamper, and its very hard to push the piston out from bottom Flair Pro2 is taking more hassle to pre-heat the brew chamber. Flair Signature has none of those problems above. It comes with a bag It just not a 58mm + portable. Everything else is almost perfect. Carry a Flair Classic with 2-1 portafilter for home use + Flow control porta for travelling purpose. You should put more money on Grinders instead. At least a Kinu/C40 redclix/JE-plus grade.
How do you define the difference between clarity and complexity? To me those terms seem very similar. Are you saying you get fewer flavors from the 58 but those flavors are clearer, whereas the Pro 2 gives you more flavors but they're a bit more muddled?
Clarity is more related to how you can taste each layer of flavor. Complexity is how many layers you can taste and how they interact with each other (sweet, acidity etc)
Hi CJ! Great question. I describe this in a recent video after using these terms. Rather than typing a long response, give the 4:6 v60 method video a watch to understand these terms better
Like to see someone do a review of the classic Arrarex VAM \ Caravel. Few companies offer elements at 110v for North American (120v) or Japanese (100v) usage.
Which would you choose? The pro 2 or 58? I’d love to know!
The PRO 2.
Because that is what i have
If I didn't have one already, I'd have to go with the 58 mainly because of all the options it opens up for portafilters and tools. But I do have a Pro 2 and really enjoy it. Won't be upgrading for a while I imagine.
Got lucky, found the Flair Pro 2 on some random store online for 245 on sale plus coupons
Found out about the Flair 58 the next day but to be honest, I feel more comfortable with the pro as someone who is more inexperienced with coffee.
La Pavoni ;)
I think I'd be happy with either, but I like that the 58 has both pre-heating and accessory standardization.
Perfectly answers the question I couldn't in my Flair 58 review, great vid man 🤙🏼
Ah thank you friend!
I think a comparison between the 58 and the Cafelat Robot is needed!
It’s in the works 🤭
@@KyleRowsell looking forward to it, buddy!
While you’re at it, compare both with no preheating!
@@KyleRowsell also compare it to it with the flair having 20g competition VST 58mm basket, as the robot is vst too but smaller radius
@@KyleRowsell also test back 2 back espresso with both of them, which is faster and more comfortable
I really enjoyed this review. I've been fascinated with the 58 since it was announced as it addressed a lot of my concerns with the pro2. With that said this review reaffirmed for me that the even though it may not have The pre heating features I've been looking forward to, the pro2 is such s competent machine.
As someone who likes manual cars, manual film lenes and all things manually involved, I look forward to adding a flair to my manual device collection.
Just 7 more weeks of saving and the flair 58 might be mine once it eventually restocks.
Amazing! Thanks for sharing!
Already having a Pro2 - whilst the 58 might be something i look to in the future - no review has, as yet tempted me to 'upgrade' to the 58 - but a great and informative comparison - thanks!
By far the best review of the Flair machines that I've seen, especially good is the process of operating them
Another thing to consider is that you can change basket sizes in the 58, while the Pro2 has a fixed basket size. so you can from 10g baskets to triples and anything in between. Which gives a lot more flexibility in recipes. I'm 'better' at puck prep in the 58mm world too. But as you stated, different machines for different customers, both are definitely a great choice.
pro2 isn't limited by basket size but for same recipe you'll have to downsize the amount (thicker puck with same dose of grinds). pi*radius^2=surface area, so what percentage of the 58 surface area does the pro2 have, use that percentage of coffee and that percentage of the final brew weight, same fineness of grinding could be possible that way as well...
Great video. I just have one critique when it comes to your videos: the TV show clips. I don't think you need them and if anything, it takes away from the quality of your videos. I find that it interrupts the flow of your videos.
Hey anthony, thanks for your comment. With respect, many do love them.. and so do I, But I do truly appreciate your comment! ☺️
@@KyleRowsell Then keeping doing what you love. I'm certainly not going to stop watching, just wanted to give a small opinion.
@@antman392 again, thanks Anthony 🙂
Omg... I didnt say anything but... It was the first thing i was thinking. Your content is way more interesting than the memes. We can get memes everywhere.
Agree. So many folks are doing these clips. Maybe it’s a trend that’ll grow tired. Still, very helpful video. Many thanks!
good. Also something worth mentioning is Flair Pro2 is less demanding when it comes to grinder. For the same dossage, Pro2 doesn't need to grind that fine due to the smaller filter basket.
I'd choose the pro 2, mainly for the price. But also because most days we'd be using it for just one or two shots. Once or twice a week, maybe two or three shots, so the workflow is not enough of an issue to justify another $200. thanks for the review!
I think if it was your only way to drink coffee, the 58 is a good idea.
Thanks for the honest review, Kyle! I have decided to purchase the Flair 58 because of this comparison. I currently have the Flair Pro 2, but I’m planning to have a coffee cart for my business, and I think the 58 is definitely the best choice for me. I’m struggling with tamping the coffee puck on the Pro 2, but I guess it will be easier on the 58. Cheers!
Really enjoyed the review and I chose the Pro 2 because I needed a portable espresso machine. I’m usually an early riser and so spending extra time isn’t a deal breaker for me
For me I am totally all for the manual lever style machine, so don't get me wrong when I say I honestly can't see how there is $500 worth of machine in the Flair 58 when a Gaggia Classic Pro can be had with all its internals such as a boiler, temp sensor, pump and steaming capability for a cheaper price
less is more. I've owned budget/cheaper machines and all those parts are a liability. I am not saying the GCP is a bad machine it's just when you're getting more complexity manufacturers have to skimp on parts at that price point. The flair is a simple design: virtually indestructible, requires little to no maintenance, doesn't need electricity, highly portable, and offers a level of control and feedback that even machines in the thousands of dollars cannot do. It's an incredible value.
Hi, i go for the flair58.
this will gonna be my only espresso machine. For me as a single espresso fan a press like this is enough. No bigger machines with stuff to maintain and clean needed. But as i want to get as close as possible to the quality of espresso made with big machines in short time, the flair58 is better (preheat, cleaning, amount of coffee, quality of espresso).
Would you be able to use the heating element of the 58 with a wifi smart plug by any chance? Like could I used google assistant to heat the flair 58 when I wake up instead of going into my kitchen to get the process started?
Great review. I would still go with the Cafelat Robot.
I’m excited to compare the robot to the 58
58% more $? I see what you did there Kyle! 😉
More like what Flair did. Honestly though, did not notice that before.
be sure to tamp that subscribe button xD
I went with the Pro 2 for the portability and the price 👍
Awesome!
How about the Flair 58x?
Hey Kyle, awesome video, man. I noticed your cuts and transitions got way better, especially on this video. Wanted to compliment you on that!
I have the Flair Pro 2, and personally, after thinking about it, I don't think I see as much of a reason to upgrade. At the price point for the Flair 58, I think I would opt for a La Pavoni or something similar that also offers built-in milk steaming. Yeah, the 58mm compatibility is nice to have. But I think a good tamper and maybe a distribution tool is all that would benefit from that, and there are options for a LaPavoni setup in that regard.
It's definitely still a contender, and for someone looking for a Pure Espresso setup, it might be the best option. But for a more general consumer, I think there are other good alternatives to consider as well.
Still, a great video and a good comparison take. Keep up the great content, Kyle!
Thanks for the comment and thoughts!
Yes, I tried some different editing styles in a few videos, but returned to my normal cuts. Thanks for noticing.
Okay the day to decide arrived unexpectedly. For this week only Flair is putting most of their goods with a 20% sale. Naturally the Flair 58 is not included. So I decided on the Flair Pro 2. I guess price won out over a 58 mm thingy.
I was considering Flair 58 since I wanted to opt in espresso and especially lever machine since they are more forgiving and it’s easier to get pressure feedback but ended up buying La Pavoni Europiccola. Having boiler is so nice and easier even with small basket which means smaller dosing. But it’s fine and you can steam milk.
La Pavoni is a beauty. And easy to fix with many spares availible. I already have a semi auto but I have a look from time to time if I can find a cheap Europicolla and restore it.
I don’t even care about getting about either of these. I just enjoy how informative your videos are, great comparison. Cheers
Great comparison. Was waiting for this one. U must have killer calves bouncing up and down all the time. Love the excitement in the vid. 👊🏽
Caffeine helps. 🤷🏻♂️
Calfeinne!
I would stay with my pro 2 for now, as I'm usually only making a single cup of cappuccino in the morning. I am getting quite comfortable with the process. I just simply pour the boiling water into chamber for preheat while I grind the beans by hand. The 58 model requires 10 mins preheat time and the electric component are my main concerns. it means that it has to be setup somewhere near an electric outlet and the possibility of electrical component failure will occur eventually. Nevertheless if someday my Pro 2 breaks, I might consider the 58 as it's pretty sexy piece of machine.
I have the flair signature, which is pretty much the same as the pro 2, just a smaller portafilter/brew chamber. I like it because I share a kitchen, and it's easy to put away and store after I finish pulling my shots
I am stepping down that espresso rabbit hole. I've seen videos with the 58 using a battery bank for camping, very cool idea!
Thanks a lot for this comparison. I’ve just ordered 58X to start my journey with espresso making. Tbh because of money. I don’t see preheating chamber as problem as I have Fellow kettle and it’s fits perfectly on top of it. I have to boil water anyway. I was thinking about some semiautomatic machine but then realized I really suck at cleaning and maintenance so that’s not an option 😅 For travel I’m gonna stay with aeropress or plastic V60.
It is very fun how niche market go into regress.
Instead of small, lot of them software, fixes required to make machines like Breville perfect, it is now obsession with levers.
Even more fun is that the more fans are focused on this and constantly discuss this - the more ordinary people move to capsule machines.
At least this is that retail statistics tell us.
It is time to stand and loudly tell that the king is naked.
Bro! Love what you do! Keep them great content coming!
Thanks friend.
Relatively new to your channel, and appreciating your enthusiasm and video editing!
Just rewatched this after finding your original Pro 2 review, and I think you're right about differing audiences. I was, if someone were getting into espresso for the first time (good grinder first, of course) how does the 58 compare to boiler machines? Does it give you more bang for your buck? How far up in price do you need to go before a machine with a boiler is pulling shots as good as a 58? Can you get something comparable for the same price? It can't steam milk, but are you making other compromises?
Awesome video, just what I was looking for, a side by side of these two. Thanks! Keep up the great content.
Thanks for watching
For the flair 2 you should pre heat all the metal parts, including the basket. I've found using a bialetti moka base to help well
Great video Kyle and thank you for the comparison.
Have you got any opinion regarding the Flair 58 compared to the La Pavoni Europiccola.
La Pavoni is so popular but significantly more expensive than the Flair 58.
Do you think the price difference is justified?
Is there a significant difference in the shot quality between those two?
Thanks
Thankyou for your review. I think the durability of 58 must be better than pro2. One of the reason I am interested in this kind of handpresso is the easiness of maintenance.
Coffee is a hell of a drug. Double espresso only in the weekend and I do things around the house like crazy to realize I'd have to wait at least another 2-3 hours to take another shot.
Nice video Kyle !! Thx for this comparison - answered a lot of questions :)
such a useful video! think id be happy to hold on to my pro2. may just buy an extra brewhead for quicker back to back.
I’m glad it helped. Thanks for your comment!
To me I would stick with the Pro 2 after watching these videos, because once you find a reliable way to attach your Pro 2 to the Kettle for preheating, it is not much of a difference. The 58 still requires hot water, so you not really cutting out the kettle part. Having more electrical components is a downside in the longevity of that product imo. To me the only real upside is the larger capacity, the ability to change basket, and for those who do multiple shots easier workflow. What interest me is what is the temperature it preheats to on the 58. Because you could get the Pro 2 to go REAL high.
Thanks for this comment! The 58 is great, but not for everyone! 🙂
Interesting takeaway...
I would've opted for the portability and price angle of the Pro 2
Using a La Pavoni; I can see the merit of the rapid portafilter and basket exchange on the Flair 58.
Kyle, I'd be interested in a shot comparison of your typical shot on the Pro 2 (16ish grams) vs the shot on the 58, You'll get a more similar bed depth and I'd be interested to see what effect this has on the shots. Food for thought, Thanks for putting out these videos.
You’re very welcome Ryan, and thank for this comment!
Hey Kyle, great video. I really liked some of the detailed edits (like the transition screens and the bottom left pricing animation).
Was fun to see a blind taste test as well! Might be cool to see more of these in future comparison videos.
Thanks for the comment!
I can see myself having a lot more fun and longjevety in coffee making with the ease of workflow of the 58
I use pro 2 exclusively for light roasted beans. Even my linea mini doesn't produce as good of an espresso shot, only for light roast.
Once i noticed how much your torso is moving up and down (bouncing even) i cant stop seeing it. The video is very usefuo for me though, great information
I always get more body and mouthfeel from my Flair Pro than from my Robot with its 58mm portafilter. This is also true when I get an espresso from a shop. I think smaller diameter portafilters give more body.
I do get more clarity from a 58mm portafilter.
Overall, I think I like smaller diameter portafilters more than 58mm.
Thanks for sharing John!
Firstly I'm so excited about the 58 announcement (even I post the launching video on my IG before Flair announce it on their official). But then, I just realize about how the price is higher than what I expected..
Considering of that (and how much I doing some research and upgrade some essential tools for this machine), I choose to upgrade the grinder first. This is a better option for me, except if anyone wants to buy my Flair Pro 2 and every tools that I have, so I'd thinking again about upgrading it to 58..
I love looks of pro 2 exept that silicone on the handle... I wish there is wood trim avalable for it but im not shure how this would look actually. It is more streamlined and sleek and it feels like original or so. 58 seems to be better option for my routine and i travle only with aeropress so it suits my needs better.... And it has wood! Im still deciding which one to get
Tough decisions for sure. But, you won't regret either purchase. Both are excellent. If you're using it for daily espresso I'd go with the 58
Hi , im new here and this is my first time to comment of any vlog,Anyway just wanna say that ur vid really help me alot actually pro 2 is on my bucket list but lucky i saw this vid, which is i can upgrade for 58.Thank you!
Aside from the obvious issue of milk steaming, would you recommend the Flair 58 over a similarly priced espresso machine, like the Gaggia Classic Pro or Rancilio Sylvia for just espresso?
Hey! I’d love to answer this, but want to do more testing first. I’ll hopefully be releasing a video covering this in the future ☺️
I just ordered a Pro 2, as opposed to the 58. One reason for doing so that you didn't go into is that the smaller Pro2 portafilter is less finicky than a 58mm, if you don't have a great, great espresso grinder. So for me the Pro2 seems like the perfect to companion to my filter/pour over setup, since the Pro2 won't be my daily driver - filter will, and I intend to use my current filter-focused (but espresso capable) grinder!
Right on! Thanks for the comment!
What’s your grinder?
@@biscuit4259 I have the Fellow Ode, with SSP Brew burrs (the original ones that are more unimodal than the Muti-Purpose burrs) 💫
If 58 WAS NOT THAT EXPENSIVE I WOULD CHOOSE IT (have the Flair Signature and I am pretty happy with it ! )
Seems to be room for a lot of variations in the flair line up..
make the heater optional
offer heater on "lesser" models
move the brew head lock and the hook that pulls the piston back up into their other machines.
I was gonna buy a pro 2 then i made a decision to wait and save up more and 3 days after that they dropped the presale date for the 58. I scooped the 58. Cant wait till it comes.
You'll love it!
Good review. The price of the 58 is too expensive for my blood. Plus the electronics is too clunky for me. Plus you can't just disassemble and pack it away after use.
I am going to wait for a cheaper verson of the 58.
Thanks for this comment and thanks for sharing!
Is the Pro 2 going to make better espresso than a Breville Bambino or Bambino Plus?
Awesome awesome content Kyle! Thanks so much!!
Thanks Diego!
Here for it! 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻🔥🔥🔥
Yeah you are
I think the Stagg fit design is on purpose. Apparently the flair folks are telling people to use the Stagg to preheat.
I have the Classic and really like it. I just need to upgrade my grinder and get the pressure gauge.
I have been using pump machines for years now, and recently bought the Flair Pro 2.
Compared to my Quickmill Carola (58mm E61 machine) I find that the shots from the Flair are much sweeter, rounder, very syrupey, very "italian" ristretto-style.
While the Carola shots are more clear, but also tend to be harsher.
Personally, I do prefer the Flair; not only is the result more pleasant, but also the entire process is just so beautiful.
However, when it comes to convenience and speed, the Carola will of course always win.
The Flair 58 for me doesn't feel that interesting; for the price I'd rather go for the Cafelat Robot, or the Sonic S7 (if that will ever be released).
If you are going to leave the Flair at home, then you should serious think about buying the larger Flair 58. I probably would buy the Pro 2 with additional options simply because I want to test out different coffees and grinders by myself. The Flair might be better if you need to crank out more than two shots on a various occasion.
There is an option to purchase flair 58 without electricity which I am thinking to buy. I don't like the clunky wire cable of the normal flair 58 version. Dobyou think I will have much problem with manually preheating the brew? Please share your thought. This will be my first brewing machine.
Yes there is! I talk about this in another flair video I’ve released recently. I think it’ll be fine as long as you use steam to preheat. I’ve tried it and works well. Though I do prefer the electronics
Thanks a lot. I never have any flair before. May be just get the electric one just in case.
That background though!
Ah it’s slowly coming along. Still lots to come!
Those little movie clips are okay... but they don't feel... premium.
But really. You don't need em.
Great comparison dude!
Thanks josh, much appreciated!
Hi! Love your videos! Can a change in grinder will make the pro 2 extraction get close to the 58’s taste? Like to get more body by having a conical grinder at higher rpm. Or more clarity by using a flat burr with low rpm? Thank you
Hey kyle,
Thanks for the great video
I would like to have your opinion if i should get the flair 58 with a standalone steamer or a heat exchanger like cime co-01 or vbm domobar jr
Either the flair or the hx would be at the same price
Interested to hear your opinion 🙏
thanks for the video, beside the portability and other features, how does flair 58 compare to pro 2, just in terms of esspresso body and taste ? Does it worth the extra money ? I'm looking forward to upgrade my pro2 to 58 if the difference worth it.
I chose Pro2, a silver one, I care about the look, I think Pro2 looks so much better than the 58
Did you use the same grind setting for each device? Would a finer grind for the 58 automatically equate with a more complex shot, even without the heating advantage? Just curious!
I did not. I ground slightly finer for the 58 to dial them in. The 58 in this test proved higher clarity than the pro 2 but both excellent shots.
And to answer your question, this is highly possible!
@@KyleRowsell Thank you! Then perhaps the higher clarity in the 58 is due more to finer grinding than enhanced heating? Thanks for such a thorough analysis of the two!
@@rosalynstory3271 I don't think it was due to the heating but the layout of the coffee, if you have a smaller but taller basket, you get different extraction results vs a wider and more shallow layer of coffee that the water has to push through. So THAT can affect the extraction results with stuff like flavour clarity as well as body. The grind may play a part as well.
An interesting comparison would be a 58 vs a LaPavoni. You can find those at about the same price used.
That would be a great comparison!
I would personally go for the La Pavoni if I could fine a decent one for that price, if only because of the smaller portafilter and group head.
Will the portafilter from the 58 chuck up to the group head of my electric machine?
I would go with the 58, any suggestions on a grinder to match the 58 that might also serve as a dirner for drip? or would it be better to get 2 ? I am thinking of all ground F4, any other suggestions would be very helpful
I wonder how people use temperature control kettles to preheat the water chamber with steam, aren't these kettles only boiling once a while?
The stagg ekg is constantly heating. No issues there.
boiler steam is enough to heat the chamber? Are sure? I don't have way to check the brew chamber temperature, tell me if you tested it. Thanks
They sell temp strips to wrap around the brew chamber
interesting how many of the brew head changes (except heater) come from the cafelat robot: I hope paul pratt feels flattered.
Paul Pratt should be proud
Great review. Is the 58 compatible to Smart Espresso Profiler?
My birthday is coming up, I know what to bug my wife about 😁
Hi bro, pls give me suggest🙏
Which manual Expresso is the best flair or cafelat robot ?
before i buy, do you know roughly how long it would take to make espresso for 3 people? I don't want to be in the kitchen for 40 minutes getting everyone a coffee lol
Top notch presentation. I have the Pro 2 and a big plus is that I can brew 23.5 grams of coffee. Not sure I want to spend the money on the 58 and only get a 15 gram dose. Maybe it is possible to get porta filters of bigger capacity.
You can use any 58mm basket, so even triple baskets if you want to huge dose. ;-)
Thank you, exactly what I needed to know. Now I just need to check my wallet. Oops, might have to save a bit more.
@@rowdyblakley8669 Flair website says the volume output of both pro and 58 are in the mid 50's, I think - you can check (maybe pro minimally higher than the 58). So, you would still be limited in volume, if you were looking for something like a 3:1 ratio with 22g in the basket, aka needing 66 ml.
Hi Kyle. I love your videos despite the sometimes frequent UA-camr edit cuts lol. I really love the Flair machines and I think the fact that the 58 has a fairly different design to me indicates the two machines have different purposes.
If I was getting something to be my every day consistent espresso maker, I'd probably spring for the 58. The more stationary design and the integrated heater all point to that. But if I wanted something more on the occasional experimentation side of making, and of course the ability to transport the maker, the regular Flair is definitely the way to go. I prefer filter coffee myself so I think I'd get a Flair classic or pro when I wanna go back to trying out espresso (got rid of a cheap capresso machine I got bundled with my grinder on craigslist)
Oh all that said, I know the Flair takes slightly coarser coffee than espresso. Would the finest settings on an Ode be able to deliver that fine setting?
Excellent video
I would like a comparison of flair58 with a pump machine just like Silvia or a lelit of this price range(500-1000€)
Honestly... I think I'd be comparing this against the Europiccola. I don't make milk drinks, so this thing looks great to me. I already have a Robot and I paid extra for it because of the streamlined workflow over the classic Flair.
question, is the flair pro 2 basket big enough for pulling a double shot?
the simplicity of the pro makes it good for years to go, maybe till I pass. I fear the suspicious 58 in quality electronics might eventually fail.
Great Review, but after almost a year with my pro 2, i have to say: resitance in the pull is offen not due to grind size, but rather dose and tamp pressure.
I ground to coarse on light roast, to make water flow at 18g, but then it was too under extracted. What help was a max dose of 17g for me, finer grind and pre set level and tamp pressure from the creama coffee tool.
My workflow is: heat up porta filter and brew chamber on a mokka pot base until the temp sticker shows 95°C, get some water boiling. Take off the porta filter and wipe clean (careful, hot), ground coffee in, fluff up with wdt, level and tamp, then when the water is boiling, immediately pull of the steaming brew chamber, put on porta filter, pour water straight of the boil and 10sec preinfusion (again, otherwise it's too much resistance). Perfect shots 80% of the time (100% if I use a single coffee and have it set)
I like that...looks like you have done your homework...Thanks for posting 👍
How did you get your fellow stagg kettle in that color with wood
Great comparison, extremely thorough and that preheating tip is genius, although no idea if its intentional. Have to say I wish the Pro2 didn't have to have the copper accent as that's a very choice colour that might not integrate into every space well, and I wish the underside of the lever and chassis and general was a little neater. I think the 58 is just a weird space in the espresso world and kind of ends up a bit too close to a traditional device considering you have to plug it in anyway. You lose a lot of what makes the flair products great (portability, no electricity), and don't gain a lot of the benefits of an automatic machine offers. Honestly I'm leaning more towards a Flair classic, real bare bones and just practice to get the pressure right or buy the gauge seperate
Thanks for this comment! I believe you’ll love the classic, it’s great.
I would like to learn more about the 58,please !
Very helpful. Thanks.
I guess at that price level, I’d take the pro 2. If I was paying $530, why wouldn’t I just get a Gaggia classic? 🤷♂️
Neither.
Flair Signature so far the best pick. Reasons:
Flair 58 is very awkward with the cable dangling around when washing the brewhead, whether you are careful or not/like it or not.
Flair Pro2 PGK piston cannot be pushed out from top of brew chamber using the plastic tamper, and its very hard to push the piston out from bottom
Flair Pro2 is taking more hassle to pre-heat the brew chamber.
Flair Signature has none of those problems above. It comes with a bag
It just not a 58mm + portable. Everything else is almost perfect.
Carry a Flair Classic with 2-1 portafilter for home use + Flow control porta for travelling purpose.
You should put more money on Grinders instead. At least a Kinu/C40 redclix/JE-plus grade.
Thanks for this thoughtful response!
How do you define the difference between clarity and complexity? To me those terms seem very similar. Are you saying you get fewer flavors from the 58 but those flavors are clearer, whereas the Pro 2 gives you more flavors but they're a bit more muddled?
Clarity is more related to how you can taste each layer of flavor.
Complexity is how many layers you can taste and how they interact with each other (sweet, acidity etc)
Hi CJ! Great question. I describe this in a recent video after using these terms. Rather than typing a long response, give the 4:6 v60 method video a watch to understand these terms better
I would go with Pro 2 to be able to pack it away since I will only use it once or twice a week.
Is someone have a link of the basket he put above the kettle to preheat the flair pro 2 ? Thanks
Can you do A/B test and then tell us which one is better. N
@kylerowsell I’m new to the channel and I’m enjoying the content. I gotta ask about the neon sign. Is that 116 Clique related?
Like to see someone do a review of the classic Arrarex VAM \ Caravel. Few companies offer elements at 110v for North American (120v) or Japanese (100v) usage.
Hi, can I grind using a Timemore C2max for PRO 2? 😅