You guys missed my favorite war-game, and its a classic! It's called "Sorry!". In it you march your troops towards the safety of their base, and make surprise attacks on enemy troops along the way. I love it, as you need to say "sorry" whenever you win a battle...such a polite war game. ;)
“Sorry” is a great step up from the Risk when you need more depth and want to get a wargame with a much more serious theme. Maybe a little too serious. “Sorry” really does a good job of conveying to violence and brutality of WW2 style games.
We need our own category that stays away from the tedium and pretentiousness of actual wargames. What I want is a much deeper version of Risk with the sophistication of Eclipse. And what I am NOT looking for is Virgin Queen.
Twilight Imperium 3e is my favorite board game, and I'd say flat-out the reason why it's not a wargame is because you can win the game while completely avoiding war. In fact, in many of our past games the players who avoid conflict as much as possible end up winning. I'd term it as an empire or 4x game.
I obviously didn't hear what so many of you heard. I heard absolutely no disparagement of war gamers in general. I'd encourage you to listen again to Tom's opening rant. What I heard is that, no, they were not into war games. His point, however, was against those who ARE elitist and exclusionist about those games to where they make it into a closed system and unwelcoming toward new players. He did NOT say that all war gamers (or even most) were snobby. He said that those that ARE, are killing the hobby, which would be a shame. Kudos to those of you trying to be friendly, inviting, and bringing in a new generation of war gamers. May your tribe increase. But Vasel & Co. are not your enemies; they are exhorting the whole community to be good ambassadors for your genre.
Exactely what I just wanted to write! Why are people offended by words, if the shoe doesn't fit? If you are not an elitist wargamer, than Tom simply did nt talk about you. Period.
I cringe at super heavy grognard games, and even I was put off on the defensive, preemptive, and overly hostile opening rant. The kind of grognard they're talking about hasn't been relevant since the 80s. Neuroshima Hex and Small World are war games though? Usually top 10 lists are subjective by nature, but calling those war games is just objectively wrong. It's like calling The Exorcist a slasher movie because Regan stabs herself with a crucifix. It's calling Axis & Allies: Europe a euro game. It's calling Monopoly a worker placement game. This whole clip was stating up front that they have no experience in the genre, don't care in the slightest to even learn about, then flipping off the genre's audience. At that point, why even make the video if there's such a lack of knowledge about and contempt for the subject? It'd be like me making a top 10 teen romance novel list where I tell Twilight fans that they suck and make the entire list the Chronicles of Narnia books. Why even make the attempt other than troll factor?
Jake Glenn they specifically said at the beginning their definition so when you watch that you know this isnt a tyoical war games list... so how could you be misled?
Guys, by far this was the most entertaining Top Ten list you have done. I have played wargames since the 1970s and just watching the video I've busted out laughing numerous times. Well done, sirs!
Great job guys. I always enjoy your top10 lists. As an old fart of 52 years i played all those Avalon Hill box games when I was younger. But now a days I enjoy the newer types of war games. Less rules are better. I use to play Axis & Allies, Conquest of the Empire, Samurai Swords and Fortress America when they first came out, Still have the originals. Still have the old Milton Bradley games like Broadsides, Hit the Beach, Dogfight and Battle Cry from the 1960's. I am so glad I live in an era that have improved the board game industry so much. The new ideas and rules are exciting. Thanks for doing your lists, you always make my day happy after a hard day at work.
This is the first of your lists that I've watched where you didn't decide in advance what the rules were going to be for being allowed on the list when you needed to, and it really shows. I'd like to see you revisit this one.
In tribute to this video I've decided to provide a list of my top ten war films: 10 - The Shawshank Redemption, 9 - Pulp Fiction, 8 - Planes, Trains and Automobiles, 7 - Young Frankenstein, 6 - The Green Mile 5 - Saving Private Ryan, 4 - Four Weddings and a Funeral, 3 - The Elephant Man, 2 - Annie Hall, 1 - Bambi I'd like to apologise for the inclusion of Saving Private Ryan, which I realise is not consistent with the rest of the list and got in due to an oversight.
It's funny that you guys think that wargames mean "huge rulebooks". In reality, the medium/heavy euro games I own have rulebooks that are just as long, if not longer, than your average light/medium wargame. To wit, Founding Fathers has a 16 page rulebook, Dominant Species has a 20 page rulebook and Die Macher has a 24 page rulebook (just looking through the stuff I have). MMP's Standard Combat Series games have a core rulebook that is 8 pages long, plus maybe 2-3 pages of individual rules. Many of GMT's games come in between 12-16 pages. The Columbia block games are even shorter, probably in the 8-10 page range on average. To be fair, wargame rules do tend to be more finicky but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. I think the real issue is playing time, not rules complexity. The "monster" rulebooks you reference are pretty much limited to the big operational games that GMT, MMP and CoA put out. You're right, they don't have a large audience, but then I don't think people try to recruit new folks into wargaming with those types of games anyway. Generally, those are relegated to dedicated hobbyists who also happen to be hardcore history buffs. There are a ton of light wargames (however you want to define that) which you can use to introduce people to the hobby, including some of the games you've mentioned here.
Honestly, I'm less concerned with how many pages than I am how the pages are filled. There is a big difference between a rulebook that reads like a tech manual and one that reads like a how-to guide with a lot of examples (pictures). After all...they say a picture is worth a thousand words. A saying the war game rulebooks that I've come across would do well to heed.
Sam Healey Pictures are good, and wargames typically have illustrated examples, too. At least these days they do. I think you just prefer the "conversational" style of rules over the "legal" style. The benefit of the former is that they're typically easier to read, but more difficult to reference, while the latter are more difficult to read, but easier to reference. I don't think either is inherently better, as I've seen both good and bad rulebooks in both styles.
Daniel Berger Your thinking is correct...I do prefer easier to read rulebooks. But I do concur that both sides of the river have their rulebook issues.
I'm sorry but most wargame rulebooks are much longer, minimum 50 pages. My favourite war game (bolt action) I'm pretty sure the rulebook is over 200 pages. That being said first 60 or so are background and WW2 history
Dang, Tom.. really bringing the hate on wargamers here. I'm an older wargamer and I'm FAR from being pretentious, holier than thou or rigid in my thinking..
I do see what he is saying but I do not see many people just sticking to one type of game anymore. The market is so big now it hard for people to not be exposed to different games. I play board games, that means hex and counter games, ameri-trash games, euro's and many more types.
The wargames themselves are pretentious. 100+ page manuals. I like complicated games, but these games are just too much. Some wargamers get the snobbish reputation because they mock and don’t consider games like Kemet or 7 wonders to be good games. They are not wargames, but there is plenty of depth to the games Boardgamers play. They seem to either mock anything that is not a wargame, or anything that deviates from the realism of a wargame, which is ironically what boardgamers are typically looking for.
I for one enjoy the banter and discussion. If I wanted nothing but a list I could just read a a list. As far as the comments made at the start, I feel Tom was simply saying that board gamers might want to consider being more open minded about what a war game is so as to not alienate new people coming into the board game hobby. Why can't people play games they like without having to worry about what "type" of game it is?
You used to fade in the game boxes or a set up game on the table when you mention them. Could you do that again in the future? It gives a first impression of the game you are talking about
Tom and friends, as you read these comments, keep in mind this is the internet. Do your best to not let the unnconstructive criticisms effect you. You guys rock.
It is quite constructive to inform those who do not understand what the wargaming hobby actually is - and what it's activity is - about where they are mistaken. Especially when they have such a large stage to spout misinformation.
Sam, you need to re-read the storyline section in the Heroscape rulebook again. The premise of the game is the WAR in valhalla where Utgar, the evil kyrie warlord, is trying to conquer the land by recruiting warriors from all periods of time. This leads the other kyries to do the same thing in order to stop him. Oh, and no more video games for intros please! (Thought it was an add)
Sam Healey Ha ha ha...ah ha...he.......(gulp) Well, I guess if anybody has the power to punch right through the internet, it will be Sam Healey. And yes your memory is fine, I was just splitting hairs. Even though the story is about large scale war, it takes more than that to make something a true war game....whatever that is.
Always love the top ten lists! A suggestion for a top ten list that would be helpful, at least for me, is Top Ten Games for a Road Trip. I think its hard to find games that are easy to play while everyone is in a car. Keep up the good work!
That is like me doing a top ten euros or AT list. :P Euros: Civilization, 1856, Imperial, Dune, Brass AT: Titan, SFB, Magic Realm (ok - I dunno, but I'm reaching for stuff here), Republic of Rome, Geronimo :P Modify message
I think calling out wargamers as snobs is too much of a generalization. No denying that there are a few elitists, but most of them play a variety of games, including Euros, Abstracts, and Ameritrash. We at HAMTAG have included in our Top 5 wargame videos: M44, C&C:A, 1775, Tannhauser, Risk Legacy, Combat Commander and Twilight Struggle. We also had Battlelore, Nexus Ops, and Fortress America in our Top 5 Ameritrash video. I even gave a shout out to Battlecry in one video. I had Hold the Line in my Top 5 wargames of all-time and I dare say it easier than anything on this list. I even included an Axis & Allies game in one of the videos. But who am I to chastise, right: I called out Eurogamers as elitist snobs, calling them Eur-ah-gah-mers and pointing out how they came up with the word "Ameritrash" to be insulting, but like their games, they fail, so I'm a hypocrite. But doggone, it's just so fun to tweak them. Maybe Tom was just trolling ... Respect! Zee, I feel your pain, man. Bart made us do Top 5 Party Games and 7 months later, I still can't come up with 5 party games that don't suck. That was a painful video. Of us 3, I'm the only "Bearded fellow" but I grew that for the video. Bart called us the "Mirror, Mirror" opposite of you guys, so I figured we needed a goat-teed Mr. Spock in our group. It had nothing to do with wargaming. But WOW, I thought we made some long videos!
Yeah I was disappointed at the rant Tom went off on, calling wargamers snobs and elitist. Might've expected something like it from Wheaton and his kind, but not the Dice Tower. There will be snobs and elitists creating an exclusionary climate in every hobby, and in every sub-genre of each one of those hobbies. Very unfair to those who are welcoming of newcomers.
***** Ouch. I've been playing war games for years. Two that stand out are Upfront and Combat Commander. They both tell great stories--better than most games out there with the possible exception of maybe Mage Knight and War of the Ring. Some of us like the details involved and realism with such games. I do agree that many players in the genre can be unpleasant. There are a good number of fantastic simulation war games that I wish had been included in the top 10--especially Upfront which was far ahead of its time. I think the title of the video should have been "Top 10 Light War Games of all Time". In any event, thanks for the interesting video. I always enjoy watching them.
It very well could a line in the sand, if you get my meaning. For example, I personally wouldn't put games like Descent or Level 7: Omega Protocol in a war game category, but I'd be okay with calling them both a tactical miniatures game.
Tactical wargames are a subset of the wargame genre. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is a tactical miniatures game, and it's also a wargame. They usually involve moving units (or squads) around a map, flanking your opponent and duking it out. Operational wargames are similar, except they cover an entire war (or a series of battles within a war), and are on a grander scale, where you don't control individual units (usually) and instead muster forces for an entire faction (usually). A good example of this would be a Fortress Europa. Lastly, Strategic wargames usually cover an entire war, and are differentiated in that you play the "big picture." The scope is the grandest, and this is where you usually find unit production, with the game time being very long. An example of this would be something like Paths of Glory, which is ranked very, very highly amongst fans of the genre. A "tactical miniatures game" is another way of wording the first one. Descent is not a tactical miniatures game - it's a game that happens to use miniatures. At its heart, it's an adventure game.
Lord Draje Oh bull. Many of the best ideas in tactical board wargaming were derived from minis. The prime entry points? The monsters Terrible Swift Sword and Wellington's Victory. Nothing light in that lineage.
War themed games and the war-game genre are two different things. This show blends them. I would love to see seperate top ten lists on the genre and the several themes that are covered here. It is really similar to mixing "Euro-games", games about Europe, and games that are set in Europe. You could get an oddly disjointed list if you mixed them all. And as far as war game snobs, it really takes a willingness to play simpler more thematic games to get new players, but you have to be careful not to go too far outside of genre. Starting with video games based in WW2 would be a bad idea. A few of the games recommended here would also be poor choices, but all in all a great set of lists.
There was a lot of fighting in the cold war, just not necessarily between the two principle powers involved in the struggle (Korean Conflict, Vietnam War, Genocides and Bombings in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, fueling of tribal warfare in Africa, backing of regimes in South America and the Middle east etc.). Also, area control is a huge part of most wars, so obviously that plays a huge role in war games.
Sorry! I was really waiting for this list from you guys! Watched every Top Ten list and always searching on BBG to add to my want list... I think 3 of you should have made one top 10 together. Can't wait to watch the next one :)
I'm sorry, but what is up with the intro? Random cut scenes from games like Tomb Raider (which isn't even a war game), dubstep and everything. Just doesn't fit the style of this channel.
Good lists. While I agree with your broad definition of a war game, I found the opening of the video talked down to my segment of the hobby however you define it. Tastes change and are often generational in nature. It may be true that more complex games are playing to a diminishing audience but it has not been for lack of effort. That said gloating over the potential loss of an art form with high play value should be not an opportunity to insult. Happy to discuss further, Mark Herman
***** You make several excellent points, so let me reply in kind. I would first offer that there are at least a thousand war-games between the excellent Command and Colors and the Longest Day or any of the traditional 'monster' games. I did not have time for the Longest Day when I was eighteen and that has not changed. While I have designed a few monster games in my career, I always made sure that they had multiple competitive scenarios that could be played in an afternoon as time even when I was young was in short supply. There are two dimensions for what I look for in any game, time commitment and the game narrative/experience. The fine gentlemen of the dice tower who did this video in earlier top x lists have indicated that there were games that they played to death and no longer made their list. Most games that I play are worth one or two goes and then my group moves on. Most people are looking for that newness factor, which keeps the publishers and apparently reviewers in business, so a good thing. I think this is an important point for me, I want to play a game that remains fresh no matter how many times I play it. That usually means that the game has to have some depth to it or it will not stand the test of time. Games that can do that are generational, such as chess. The vast majority of games in all genres will be forgotten and replaced by newer designs in less than a decade from now. I am not sure if any of my designs will ever pass that test, but that is what I continue to strive for. Determining what will and will not survive the test of time is not always easy to determine. Quality designs survive no matter how tastes change. And do not confuse popularity with quality. Reality TV is far more popular than documentaries, but documentaries are still here and I doubt anyone will remember any but a few of todays popular shows. The same can be said for the Top 40 music list of any era and Opera, Opera is still here. This brings in the issue of time commitment. I think 3 hours give or take thirty minutes is one sitting to include set up and break down. In that time period I am looking for the best, most interesting game experience I can have. Games that take more than one session are rare events in my life. So for example the game I play the most regularly is my Empire of the Sun design that takes 3 hours to play the tournament scenario (1943). It never gets old for me and I have been playing it with a band of friends for a decade. Complexity is only meaningful if it impacts how long it takes to play the game, which I think was the original point of citing games like The Longest Day with several maps and a thousand or more counters. All of the games that I play normally are one map games and take 3 hours. The ones I play often are worth playing over and over as there always seems just a few new things added to the experience each time I play them. Those are the games whether they are war-games or some other artificial taxonomy that we impose on them that are worth playing. And three hours is three hours no matter what the game is about or how complex its design. Lastly, I want to thank you for your kind remarks about We the People and Washington's War. Note that Washington's War takes two experienced players 90 minutes to play. That was purposeful as I wanted a game that I could play twice in 3 hours with the two competitors switching sides. In the end relative skill is best measured when you play a series of matches. All the best, Mark Herman
Mark Herman As far as time and space constraints, the virtual systems can solve these problems. I can't set up my Third Reich game upstairs, but no cats, children, maids, etc ever ruin my vassal setups.
I just want you guys to know that I really love all these lists, regardless of what is being listed. Thank you guys for putting out great content and, and don't forget to ignore the hate!
Looking over the comments, it seems a lot of you have missed the point. The dice tower guys are not war gamer hobbyists, but general board and card game hobbyists, two distinct groups that obviously have some overlap. I have no interest in hardcore war gaming, but as a general board game hobbyist, I am interested in lighter war games, non-historical themed games, and war themed games. In other words, these are war games for board gamers. If you want a list of hardcore war games, find someone on UA-cam who covers war games specifically. But for the many gamers who are like me, these lists are useful recommendations.
Jees...people are tough with comments. I thought it was a nice Top 10. I watched the whole vid and enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for the great entertainment.
X-Wing IS a wargame. You're reenacting small skirmishes within a larger war. Dude on the right has an extremely narrow view of wargame. Y'all said "conflict" but X-wing and Twilight Imperium ARE CONFLICT games... based around a war. Just because it's sci-fi does not disqualify it from being a wargame. Warhammer 40k? or are you guys afraid of miniature games?
Tom is right about Battleground! If the game is played with figures on movement trays it's a stereotypical WARGAME. It's a wargame for people who can't afford (or be bothered to produce) painted figures. You don't have to like it, but to deny its a wargame is a bit silly.
+Robert Manser When I was a kid I couldn't afford all the miniatures so I would make circles and ovals, etc. with spears on index cards and do the same thing. I use to make my own Transformers out of paper and fold them up (transform them), but I digress. I just ordered a couple of Battleground decks. It looks pretty neat.
I just skimmed the comments so I don't know if this has been said before, but... this is one list you probably should have just skipped, or changed the focus of. Very few of these games fit into even a loose description of a "wargame". Wargames are, by their nature, strategy and/or tactics-centric, generally non-abstract (very literal), and focus more on simulation of armed conflict. ALL games have conflict, so that really isn't much of a determination, but strategic/tactical armed conflict is the bread and butter of wargames. Risk is barely a wargame, while Axis and Allies definitely fits the bill. You probably shouldn't have done this list, because A) it really isn't your forte, so you don't really have an informed opinion, B) you didn't have a consensus definition of a wargame before you each did your lists, so none of you are on the same page, and C) I thought you were very dismissive of wargamers and you alluded that their curmudgeonly attitudes effectively invalidates their opinions, which I don't think is fair for multiple reasons. I play wargames and I also play Euros, minis, party games, etc., so I was a little angered by this video. It seemed like your attitude was that you didn't like or play wargames, so you guys made lists of games with wargame elements that you liked better. I like your show, but this wasn't your finest moment.
This group knows about all other games but zero about war games,i have been playing war games for about 30 years,they know absolutely nothing about war games,i have a lot of respect for these men.
Excellent video, and really pleased Memoir '44 did so well. I'm not so sure why you tended to stay away from skirmish games, but hey, who am I to say you're wrong? IMHO, the best wargame available today is Atlantic Chase. I know it may not be quite what you guys are looking for, but it's an excellent game, introducing new and - as far as I know - unique mechanics, plus it has a cool painting of the Bismarck on the lid! Some of the games on your lists I've never heard of, I must find out more about some of them, and maybe even add them to my little collection some of these days.
I played Axis & Allies at tournaments for a number of years and it was the most fun I have ever had with any board game and for this reason I was hoping that it would make this list. The absence is especially confusing since Fortress America made the list and I consider that game to be much more random and a lot less fun. Tom often will say that those "older games" are not as good as modern games but I don't understand this at all. I have played many modern games (7 Wonders, Scythe, Catan variants, Pandemic, Race for the Galaxy, Raiders of the North Sea, Power Grid, Twilight Imperium, Dominant Species and others) and I like these games a great deal but Axis is bad as compared to them? I am trying to figure out how Tom, Zee and Sam could think that. I wonder if these guys have played tournament rules with the third edition map and units? First edition rules were terrible as the allies could just put an unlimited complex in Persia and have a 95% chance of winning. Although even first edition rules would be patched by the tournament convention of bidding to see who plays the Axis. Or maybe they played with people who did a lot of research? There is nothing more unbalanced in any game that I have ever liked than heavy bombers so that could explain it. (Just an idea for a top 10 list there Tom, "Top 10 unbalanced rules in games we like"?) I really like Tom, Zee and Sam and I love Dice Tower videos but I just don't know how they don't consider Axis and Allies to be more of a classic and influential game. Tom even puts Diplomacy on many of his lists though he has clearly said he hates it many times. Why no love for Axis? Would anyone else be interested in a Dice Tower video explaining why Axis and Allies doesn't get any love?
Great Video. Tom, I agree with your argument. If a game is about war it's a war game. Cards, Chits, Boards, miniatures, big rule books, it doesn't matter.
If a game is about europe, it is a eurogame then? If a game is about american trash, that is what qualifies it as AT? Wargaming is a HOBBY. It is not merely what the conjunction of words seem to indicate. Wargames are the activity of that hobby.
Taking some heat, as expected. We all know what "war game" means in our hobby, and most people watching this aren't interested in them; so you had the right idea bringing it out of the niche and more in line with what your audience wants in games about war. Memoir, 1812, Battlecry -- solid choices -- but you were already on thin ice with the concept for this top 10, and I think the X-wings and the Heroscapes sent it off the rails. Personally, I think you guys can do no wrong -- it's always fun, and you give your opinions without pandering -- but I think in retrospect you could have mitigated some of the damage by defining your terms more clearly. Still not a fail, though; the fact that you permit interpretation allows us to explore our perceptions and biases.
Your intro reminded me of the time I was at NashCon a few years ago. Most of the games played there are historical military simulations played on large tables with miniatures. There's some fantasy, too, and some war boardgames. One of the local Nashville game groups was there and they had their own room and the members brought a good-sized library of "real" boardgames (y'know, the kind you guys like to play). I came in and played a game of Splendor. I got to talking with the other players there and told them I was there mostly for the games played out in the main rooms. One of the other players told me he had never played any of those "fighting games". Sounded very odd, hearing him say that.
Re: Senji - the hostage "system" was actually really common during the pre-Edo period in Japan. Family members are given to each other as hostages in order to gain "trust" that can be betrayed later on.
Running gag of all top ten videos, Zee mentions multiple 'out of print' games. Keep up the great videos guys, Zee don't change a bit, I love hearing about the games of obscurity!
So yeah...you guys definately should have gotten together to say what could or couldn't be included in your guys' lists. The majority of this video was just arguing over whether something was or wasn't a war game...blah...not one of your best.
I'm with you on this one. The endless discussion is a bit boring. It would have been better t just state at the beginning what war games are to you and leave it at that.
Casper Egas Yes....agree as well...I am really tired of Sam...it would be a much better show with Tom and Zee...they are both ethusiastic and far more open-minded than that surly curmudgeon!
My definition of a wargame would include a game of military confrontation, where the mechanisms of the game center around combat. For me, a war-game must involve armed forces, be they ground, naval, air, (or space). This is why I would not include 'Twilight Struggle' as a war-game, and certainly not 'Small World'...as fine a game as each of those are. Still, I know where you guys are coming from, and so I take your list as it is. Entertaining Top Ten episode none-the-less, and I always enjoy just hearing you talk about our favorite hobby in any capacity. :)
That intro is EXTRA bizarre when it shows clips of Tomb Raider next to big "Board Games" text haha. May as well show movie clips while you're at it. As for the lists, I found this video highly entertaining. Thanks Tom, Zee, and Sam!
I don't what I like more, that you guys leveled criticism at grognards or the intro with dubstep and clips of CoD and Tomb Raider thrown in. LOL Trollin! I love it!
"Wargame" in the board game sense is a specific term, it doesn't encompass all games which simulate conflict, but games which simulate HISTORICAL conflicts. A guy who played warhammer 40k wouldn't call himself a wargamer, but a miniatures gamer. A guy who plays Advance Squad Leader, or Battle for North Africa, is more of a "wargamer" in the traditional sense of the word.
koalabrownie ehh watch the channel “Miniwargaming”, basically all they play is Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and they refer to themselves as “War gamers”. I think it’s more that board gamers call players of games like that miniatures gamers while the players themselves do call themselves War Gamers.
I love this video, guys! And although a wargamer, I can perfectly live with your own definition that applies to this video! :) Make us blow a fuse! Ha! Love it!
I CANNOT!!!! I’m looking for a game with bigger armies and deeper combat with some economic elements. But I don’t want the ultra pretentious wargames with 100 page manuals.... Almost none of the games they listed seemed anything like that! X-wing is ironically more of a good wargame than most of the silly things they mentioned!
Wargames is about, if not simulating, then imitating, military operations. Just being "about war" is not enough. But I guess Tom realized that. Starting out alienating wargamers by calling them snotty and "a dying breed" is stupid however. I don't for a second believe that people are avoiding the hobby because someone says that Twilight Struggle is not a wargame.
Games Mentioned: 1775 Rebellion Warhammer: Diskwars Memoir '44 Heroscape Fortress America Senji Battle Cry X-wing: Miniatures 1812: The Invasion of Canada Duel in the Dark Twilight Imperium 3 Twilight Struggle Risk: Legacy Combat Commander Battlelore Battle of the Five Armies Kemet Command and Colors: Ancient Cyclades Small World Battlelore 2.0 Nexus Ops Tannhauser Neuroshima Hex Battleground: Fantasy Warfare
A new game I think you would all enjoy is '1944 Race to the Rhine'. Technically it's a race game rather than and war game, but it feels like a war game- you play as either Patton, Bradley or Monty trying to make it to Germany first following DDay. It's all about logistics, making sure your army corps have enough fuel, ammo and food to keep on going whilst running into German resistance. It looks great and is a really neat concept
Very interesting list. Thanks guys! It might not be a strict selection of war games according to... war gamers. But that makes this list very accessible for non-war gamers while still introducing interesting new games and game concepts to other gamers.
Memoir '44 being readily available...man I missed out!! Also, I've probably watched over 100 dice tower videos since getting into the hobby over a year ago and I've never been as pleased as i was with the small passing compliments to Age Of Conan. Really like that game and wish it received more acclaim. Great video!
I can't believe that on a list of war board games that none of the avalon hills games did not make any list they are the top of the pile of war board games. Axis and allies, battle of the bluge, panzerarmee afrika, and many more. You guys must realy not like to play real war games!
Ricky Morgan It's strange how that era is practically forgotten. Avalon Hill had Squad Leader, Third Reich, Panzer Leader, Fortress Europa, Diplomacy, King Maker. SPI had Terrible Swift Sword and a ton of others.
David Weissman I grew up playing and loving all of those games -- fanatically so. I also enjoy contemporary, far simpler board games of many different classifications, and have played (and still play) what I like (and can find others to play with me), regardless of classification* -- whether it's "War In The West" or "Fluxx" or "chess" or "Neuroshima Hex" or "Among The Stars". I try not to disparage those with different tastes (as some gamers seem to relish doing) as gaming, like everything else, is a matter of taste. * IMO, game classification is far from an exact science and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
A question for Mr. Healey: Isn't there such a thing as a "tactical level war game?" I'm thinking of Star Fleet Battles, which is a tactical level war game concerned with ship-on-ship combat - not unlike X-Wing (in that very specific sense).
I suppose...but as I've said already in a few different posts here, *I* have purposefully shyed away from space battle games for the purpose of creating *MY* list because they don't fit into *MY* view of what makes a wargame a wargame.
Pre 20th century land battle games are all tactical level wargames. As are individual ship and plane battles like Wings or Ironclads. No need to get into the question of fantasy or SF
Thanks for the advice guys. Gonna get Memoir 44 and Neuroshima Hex soon as they look pretty awesome. BTW don't really watch the whole video a bit to long for me, I skip to your guy's last top two or one sometimes FYI.
I for myself enjoyed this video and their arguments. I think in their own definition they all made sense. Though I would be still interested in what games would be a great entry into the hobby of war gaming from a "real wargamer" standpoint. Would be cool if someone here would post his "Top 5: War games for beginners" maybe rated from No 1 being the most beginner friendly and 5 the most advanced one.
I liked your guys' list. Should probably keep in mind though, that the group of 50+'s that enjoy 'those types' of war games are completely replenishable by a younger generation of gamers LOOKING for 'those types' of games :). I love the all-inclusiveness of the dice tower, and you guys have enough going on in this channel to satisfy most types of gamers. Rather than a bold statement that excludes folks like 'if you don't like our list, too bad', maybe the better statement is 'this is what we think are the best war games, for those with a more acute taste for those types of games, see our guys HAMTAG on this channel'. Keep up the good work boys, This channel has been a great supplement to my board gaming hobby. Cheers!
For me, a lot of "War Gamers" are actually "Battle Gamers" because they generally play a battle rather than a whole war (unless they are doing a whole campaign of course). I like battle games and skirmish games but I don't like games such as Risk, which to me is a "war" game, but I love Memoir '44, Dead Zone etc. Love the shows, love the channel; keep it going guys.
I think the debate about what makes up ____ game is one of the most fun parts of the list. Take out the debate/conflict and it becomes less fun to watch for me, really enjoyed this video!
I agree that classification arguments are fun. In this case though, you have three people with no real understanding of the hobby they are talking about - except to essentially deny its own definitions of itself. Such debates need to be from knowledge to be interesting.
I'm 19 now and I absolutely love the grognard type wargames, that's what I mainly like to play. I also have two friends who are the same and even a bit younger. And this is 4 years after this video was uploaded.
I think some people miss the point here. The guys were making a list of war games (the subject matter), not war games (the genre). Titles and labels are whatever the majority of people want them to be. Just because a game does not fit in the genre doesn't mean it doesn't fit in the subject matter. War games (the genre) is not the only types of games dealing with war. Stop being so narrow-minded and clingy to the "labels."
They did. Did you not hear them say up front that people will be upset by their choices and how they explained what they consider a war gam. Again, talking about subject matter and not gene
Colton Gregory Sure, but it wasn't until halfway through that we heard opinions like "I disincluded any space games" or "Wargames typically involve governments" or there being a difference between wargames and area control games, or wargames and tactical miniatures games, or what level/size of conflict is necessary to qualify as a wargame. Your point about whether they were addressing genre or subject matter was NOT made clear, hence why many of the choices were received with squinted eyes (Small World, Twilight Struggle, X-Wing, etc). To be clear, I agree with your original point; these lines are blurry and labels are for the most part, pretty silly, especially when they cause hositility. I didn't like their Top Ten SciFi and Fantasy lists for that reason; I felt their arguments indicated a very narrow vision of these genres. I liked many of the choices here, but honestly, this list was a mess, and could have been handled much better, without the diatribe toward a whole group of gamers.
Fester Blats First of all, I don't think putting a space between two words is sufficiently laying out the parameters they used to make the list, especially when the UA-cam video title, the title that appears in the video itself, and the title of the list that Tom actually says out loud, can wildly differ. Secondly, that doesn't really address my point. I'm well aware of the distinction between "wargames" and "war games", and if these guys had just explained at the beginning how they settled on their titles, that would have been it. But as I said, it wasn't until halfway through that we heard things like space games being discounted or the need for governments to be involved, or war vs. battle vs. skirmish games. I'm willing to count anything from ASL to Small World as a "war game", but be clear about that up front. I love the Dice Tower crew, but in my humble opinion this list was a disorganized mess and one of the few big gaffes they've made.
So, you guys have gotten some flak for this list, but I think it was very entertaining. The more conflict there is (abstract or otherwise) during the video, the better, imho. I was interested to see where you would all land on the definitions of "wargames," and you stuck very close to my prediction. Good job and keep it up! Also, I knew Zee was going to pick himself to go first....and yeah, the intro is....ok. But still, awesome all around, now I have a couple more games to check out.
Another entertaining list. Thanks. I've had great times with many, many old AH and SPI war games, but it was nice hearing about these wonderful games as well. I'll have to check out a few of the ones I haven't seen yet. Please shorten the arguments over semantics so you can spend more time explaining what you like about each game.
Love your top ten lists and am not by any means an avid wargamer but you guys really did spend too much time jabbing at the grognards and arguing amongst yourselves. A fairly forgettable entry in the series considering how stellar many of your offerings have been. As always, the effort is appreciated!
Let them have their definition, because in the end those war games age much more fun and entertaining then those die hard 2000 page rulebook and chart fest games anyway. In the end it's another fun video about three fun games bantering about games, why can't people just enjoy that? :-)
I neither own, nor have seen, a game with a '2000' page rule book. Many of the wargames I own have less pages in their rule books than euros. It's poorly informed opinions like yours and Tom's that are damaging our niche hobby, not wargamers themselves.
Less flaming please. In that case stick with Hamtag who seem like they live and breathe war games. "proper" war games aren't an interest for me. But 3 guys opinions on a video aren't going to destroy the niche by themselves.
Luke Hector It's probably more of the stigma that wargames have than anything. I don't know how it got that way, but the games that place such an emphasis on realism and accuracy would probably obsess over details :) That said...this isn't helping...and these guys do have some clout in the very niche boardgame community. I essentially got called a name for liking a tabletop game. :/
Kyle Perryman No, I don't think that's quite true. The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of "serious" wargamers like to exclude & talk down on games that they don't find to be "up to their standards". There is a large grey zone between "regular" games and wargames, and by excluding it, you just seem like an elitist and if that's the first contact people have with the "serious" wargaming hobby, then I can understand why they feel that it is very offputting. It also makes it needlessly hard to convince people to transition from a "light" game to one of the more "serious" ones. That's why I'm for an inclusive definition. I am by the way saying this as someone who enjoys games like World in Flames and Lock 'n Load, but also games like Axis & Allies and Warhammer.
My definition of a war game: 1) There have to be armies involved, not individuals. 2) Armies have to be mustered and mobilized on a map. 3) Combat has to be the ultimate determinant of win conditions (i.e. you can't win the game by building/gathering resources or earning non-combat victory points) So, I don't consider TI3 to be a war game, nor Heroscape, nor Neuroshima Hex. I consider Memoir 44, Battle Cry, Commands and Colors, Battlelore, Risk, Axis and Allies, and would even allow Small World to all be war games. So there! (Nee ner nee ner nee ner)
Any chance for a Top 10 Most Cost-Efficient Games? I would love to get your opinions on what games are truly worth the price for those of us living more day to day. I loved the Stocking Stuffers episode, but really don't mind spending over $20 as long as it has the play-value.
The mechanic that Zee mentions in Senji is also very prevalent, if I'm not mistaken, in Here I Stand - the idea of having a secret negotiation with somebody that's necessarily fully binding.
I enjoyed this list! People debating over genres doesn't bother me, and I don't think there was too much of it in this video. Question, do y'all prefer Twilight Struggle or Labyrinth?
I will play any game anyone puts in front of me, but my favorite games are war games. I just don't get to play them very often because it's hard to find anyone in my area to play with. I don't know if "dying breed" is the correct term, but I agree with his premise. The category isn't dominant, like it used to be.There just aren't that many of us anymore. I enjoyed your lists. I love any list that includes Duel In The Dark, so Sam easily won this video. lol. I haven't played many of the games on your lists, but I wrote them down and am going to try to play as many of them as I can to see why you like them so much. I have to say that your defense of your ability to make this list isn't necessary and a little overdone. If you have never played the games, then you shouldn't make the list; but if you have played them and wanted to make a list, then there is no reason why you shouldn't. These lists are your opinions. You aren't stating a fact. You aren't saying that these are the definitive best war games ever. They are the ones you like best - your top ten. If the fan boys have a problem, let them flame. It's what people do best on the net nowadays. Great lists (especially Sam. haha)!
Loved the video and I can't understand the hate for the opening comments. If you're not the type of wargamer he was describing then Tom wasn't talking about you. Period.
This one is all over the place without parameters as far as what is a "wargame". I'd like to see another video where you stick to a common interpretation. I enjoyed some of your suggestions nonetheless.
I am with cliffside bunker on this one. How can axis&allies not be on it at all. I mean you are disregarding it because of the fact that it is large or takes long to play. It is still one of the most if not the war game to have on this. Can't really believe it isn't mentioned on the list even as a 10 for each of you if you personally don't like it. And risk legacy??? Only because it's short.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I love your top 10 lists, but I miss seeing the game box and components :(
You guys missed my favorite war-game, and its a classic! It's called "Sorry!". In it you march your troops towards the safety of their base, and make surprise attacks on enemy troops along the way. I love it, as you need to say "sorry" whenever you win a battle...such a polite war game. ;)
It's also called, Canadian Warfare.
Bruh
“Sorry” is a great step up from the Risk when you need more depth and want to get a wargame with a much more serious theme. Maybe a little too serious. “Sorry” really does a good job of conveying to violence and brutality of WW2 style games.
No no he’s got a point
Dice Tower, now with 100% more dubstep, you know, to appeal to the young crowd.
Dice Tower Top 10 Things We Hate About "War Gamers"
We need our own category that stays away from the tedium and pretentiousness of actual wargames. What I want is a much deeper version of Risk with the sophistication of Eclipse. And what I am NOT looking for is Virgin Queen.
I am emphatically not a fan of that intro.
Agreed... that intro has to go. The video game footage feels very strange and out of place.
KabukiKid What's crazy is that the intro has a image of Axis & Allies but it didn't make anyones list.
***** Axis & Allies deserves some love.
The Cliffside Bunker I can't believe Axis and allies is not on anyone's list it is the best one out there
I'm not a fan of that attitude, mister. Gonna have to call you Mr. Poopoop mouth because of all the poop that comes out of your mouth.
Twilight Imperium 3e is my favorite board game, and I'd say flat-out the reason why it's not a wargame is because you can win the game while completely avoiding war. In fact, in many of our past games the players who avoid conflict as much as possible end up winning. I'd term it as an empire or 4x game.
I obviously didn't hear what so many of you heard. I heard absolutely no disparagement of war gamers in general. I'd encourage you to listen again to Tom's opening rant. What I heard is that, no, they were not into war games. His point, however, was against those who ARE elitist and exclusionist about those games to where they make it into a closed system and unwelcoming toward new players. He did NOT say that all war gamers (or even most) were snobby. He said that those that ARE, are killing the hobby, which would be a shame. Kudos to those of you trying to be friendly, inviting, and bringing in a new generation of war gamers. May your tribe increase. But Vasel & Co. are not your enemies; they are exhorting the whole community to be good ambassadors for your genre.
Exactely what I just wanted to write! Why are people offended by words, if the shoe doesn't fit? If you are not an elitist wargamer, than Tom simply did nt talk about you. Period.
I cringe at super heavy grognard games, and even I was put off on the defensive, preemptive, and overly hostile opening rant. The kind of grognard they're talking about hasn't been relevant since the 80s.
Neuroshima Hex and Small World are war games though? Usually top 10 lists are subjective by nature, but calling those war games is just objectively wrong. It's like calling The Exorcist a slasher movie because Regan stabs herself with a crucifix. It's calling Axis & Allies: Europe a euro game. It's calling Monopoly a worker placement game.
This whole clip was stating up front that they have no experience in the genre, don't care in the slightest to even learn about, then flipping off the genre's audience. At that point, why even make the video if there's such a lack of knowledge about and contempt for the subject? It'd be like me making a top 10 teen romance novel list where I tell Twilight fans that they suck and make the entire list the Chronicles of Narnia books. Why even make the attempt other than troll factor?
I like war games about as much as the DT guys do, but I wouldn't make a list like this claiming games that aren't war games are. It's misleading.
Jake Glenn they specifically said at the beginning their definition so when you watch that you know this isnt a tyoical war games list... so how could you be misled?
Guys, by far this was the most entertaining Top Ten list you have done. I have played wargames since the 1970s and just watching the video I've busted out laughing numerous times. Well done, sirs!
Thanks for giving us a top 10 so soon after finishing Sam and Zee's top 100 lists!
Great job guys. I always enjoy your top10 lists. As an old fart of 52 years i played all those Avalon Hill box games when I was younger. But now a days I enjoy the newer types of war games. Less rules are better. I use to play Axis & Allies, Conquest of the Empire, Samurai Swords and Fortress America when they first came out, Still have the originals. Still have the old Milton Bradley games like Broadsides, Hit the Beach, Dogfight and Battle Cry from the 1960's. I am so glad I live in an era that have improved the board game industry so much. The new ideas and rules are exciting. Thanks for doing your lists, you always make my day happy after a hard day at work.
This is the first of your lists that I've watched where you didn't decide in advance what the rules were going to be for being allowed on the list when you needed to, and it really shows. I'd like to see you revisit this one.
I think it would be interesting for the Chief and HAMTAG if they had a reaction to Tom's, Zee's, and Sam's lists.
In tribute to this video I've decided to provide a list of my top ten war films:
10 - The Shawshank Redemption, 9 - Pulp Fiction, 8 - Planes, Trains and Automobiles, 7 - Young Frankenstein, 6 - The Green Mile
5 - Saving Private Ryan, 4 - Four Weddings and a Funeral, 3 - The Elephant Man, 2 - Annie Hall, 1 - Bambi
I'd like to apologise for the inclusion of Saving Private Ryan, which I realise is not consistent with the rest of the list and got in due to an oversight.
It's funny that you guys think that wargames mean "huge rulebooks". In reality, the medium/heavy euro games I own have rulebooks that are just as long, if not longer, than your average light/medium wargame.
To wit, Founding Fathers has a 16 page rulebook, Dominant Species has a 20 page rulebook and Die Macher has a 24 page rulebook (just looking through the stuff I have). MMP's Standard Combat Series games have a core rulebook that is 8 pages long, plus maybe 2-3 pages of individual rules. Many of GMT's games come in between 12-16 pages. The Columbia block games are even shorter, probably in the 8-10 page range on average. To be fair, wargame rules do tend to be more finicky but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. I think the real issue is playing time, not rules complexity.
The "monster" rulebooks you reference are pretty much limited to the big operational games that GMT, MMP and CoA put out. You're right, they don't have a large audience, but then I don't think people try to recruit new folks into wargaming with those types of games anyway. Generally, those are relegated to dedicated hobbyists who also happen to be hardcore history buffs. There are a ton of light wargames (however you want to define that) which you can use to introduce people to the hobby, including some of the games you've mentioned here.
Spoken like a Caesar!
Honestly, I'm less concerned with how many pages than I am how the pages are filled. There is a big difference between a rulebook that reads like a tech manual and one that reads like a how-to guide with a lot of examples (pictures). After all...they say a picture is worth a thousand words. A saying the war game rulebooks that I've come across would do well to heed.
Sam Healey Pictures are good, and wargames typically have illustrated examples, too. At least these days they do. I think you just prefer the "conversational" style of rules over the "legal" style. The benefit of the former is that they're typically easier to read, but more difficult to reference, while the latter are more difficult to read, but easier to reference. I don't think either is inherently better, as I've seen both good and bad rulebooks in both styles.
Daniel Berger
Your thinking is correct...I do prefer easier to read rulebooks. But I do concur that both sides of the river have their rulebook issues.
I'm sorry but most wargame rulebooks are much longer, minimum 50 pages. My favourite war game (bolt action) I'm pretty sure the rulebook is over 200 pages. That being said first 60 or so are background and WW2 history
Great show! I love it when you guys get all passionate and fight.
I love the chemistry between the three of them; very light and entertaining.
Dang, Tom.. really bringing the hate on wargamers here. I'm an older wargamer and I'm FAR from being pretentious, holier than thou or rigid in my thinking..
I do see what he is saying but I do not see many people just sticking to one type of game anymore. The market is so big now it hard for people to not be exposed to different games. I play board games, that means hex and counter games, ameri-trash games, euro's and many more types.
Jason Sundin
I'm with you, bud, life's too short to play boring games.
Then he wasn't talking about you
The wargames themselves are pretentious. 100+ page manuals. I like complicated games, but these games are just too much. Some wargamers get the snobbish reputation because they mock and don’t consider games like Kemet or 7 wonders to be good games. They are not wargames, but there is plenty of depth to the games Boardgamers play. They seem to either mock anything that is not a wargame, or anything that deviates from the realism of a wargame, which is ironically what boardgamers are typically looking for.
Battle of five armies is definetely a warg-game. ;)
Tom's meta comments on this episode: ua-cam.com/video/_wihtjJ4oUI/v-deo.htmlm5s (skip to 26:05).
I love the escalation of "wtf" on Tom and Zee's faces during Sam's "wargaming of sentences" at 34:40. Priceless.
I for one enjoy the banter and discussion. If I wanted nothing but a list I could just read a a list. As far as the comments made at the start, I feel Tom was simply saying that board gamers might want to consider being more open minded about what a war game is so as to not alienate new people coming into the board game hobby. Why can't people play games they like without having to worry about what "type" of game it is?
A top 10 "historical games" would be great! Any chance of this dice tower?
Si Teal I don't think those guys are competent...
Yea, especially Sam, who has been history teacher...
I agree.
You used to fade in the game boxes or a set up game on the table when you mention them. Could you do that again in the future? It gives a first impression of the game you are talking about
Can we get an updated list on this? Been a while and I am wondering if it has all changed.
Tom and friends, as you read these comments, keep in mind this is the internet. Do your best to not let the unnconstructive criticisms effect you. You guys rock.
It is quite constructive to inform those who do not understand what the wargaming hobby actually is - and what it's activity is - about where they are mistaken. Especially when they have such a large stage to spout misinformation.
There is no misinformation. They weren't talking about the hobby "wargaming". They were taking about their opinions of what wargaming is.
***** Notice that the title of the video is "Top Ten War Games" not "Top Ten Wargames". They are exploring a theme, not the hobby.
Touche
Sam, you need to re-read the storyline section in the Heroscape rulebook again. The premise of the game is the WAR in valhalla where Utgar, the evil kyrie warlord, is trying to conquer the land by recruiting warriors from all periods of time. This leads the other kyries to do the same thing in order to stop him. Oh, and no more video games for intros please! (Thought it was an add)
I stand corrected...-_-
I did okay from memory, though...I got it kind of right, yeah?
Fenix you better watch out buddy, your throat's getting lined up for a good punching right now! ;-)
^Haha...not really...
...or maybe...NAH, just jokin'...:D
...or am I?
Sam Healey
Ha ha ha...ah ha...he.......(gulp) Well, I guess if anybody has the power to punch right through the internet, it will be Sam Healey. And yes your memory is fine, I was just splitting hairs. Even though the story is about large scale war, it takes more than that to make something a true war game....whatever that is.
Star Wars episode IV A New Hope.... "It is a period of civil war." There you go Tom!
Always love the top ten lists! A suggestion for a top ten list that would be helpful, at least for me, is Top Ten Games for a Road Trip. I think its hard to find games that are easy to play while everyone is in a car. Keep up the good work!
That is like me doing a top ten euros or AT list. :P
Euros:
Civilization, 1856, Imperial, Dune, Brass
AT:
Titan, SFB, Magic Realm (ok - I dunno, but I'm reaching for stuff here), Republic of Rome, Geronimo :P
Modify message
Whoa... did you just accuse Dune of being a Euro? O_o
That's what happens when people who don't know what they're talking
about try and discuss a category.
I'm sorry.
***** I do.
I suspect any wargamers would really.
I'd love to see them do this list again just updated for new stuff that's come out
I think calling out wargamers as snobs is too much of a generalization. No denying that there are a few elitists, but most of them play a variety of games, including Euros, Abstracts, and Ameritrash.
We at HAMTAG have included in our Top 5 wargame videos: M44, C&C:A, 1775, Tannhauser, Risk Legacy, Combat Commander and Twilight Struggle. We also had Battlelore, Nexus Ops, and Fortress America in our Top 5 Ameritrash video. I even gave a shout out to Battlecry in one video.
I had Hold the Line in my Top 5 wargames of all-time and I dare say it easier than anything on this list. I even included an Axis & Allies game in one of the videos.
But who am I to chastise, right: I called out Eurogamers as elitist snobs, calling them Eur-ah-gah-mers and pointing out how they came up with the word "Ameritrash" to be insulting, but like their games, they fail, so I'm a hypocrite. But doggone, it's just so fun to tweak them. Maybe Tom was just trolling ... Respect!
Zee, I feel your pain, man. Bart made us do Top 5 Party Games and 7 months later, I still can't come up with 5 party games that don't suck. That was a painful video.
Of us 3, I'm the only "Bearded fellow" but I grew that for the video. Bart called us the "Mirror, Mirror" opposite of you guys, so I figured we needed a goat-teed Mr. Spock in our group. It had nothing to do with wargaming.
But WOW, I thought we made some long videos!
Yeah I was disappointed at the rant Tom went off on, calling wargamers snobs and elitist. Might've expected something like it from Wheaton and his kind, but not the Dice Tower. There will be snobs and elitists creating an exclusionary climate in every hobby, and in every sub-genre of each one of those hobbies. Very unfair to those who are welcoming of newcomers.
***** Ouch. I've been playing war games for years. Two that stand out are Upfront and Combat Commander. They both tell great stories--better than most games out there with the possible exception of maybe Mage Knight and War of the Ring. Some of us like the details involved and realism with such games. I do agree that many players in the genre can be unpleasant. There are a good number of fantastic simulation war games that I wish had been included in the top 10--especially Upfront which was far ahead of its time. I think the title of the video should have been "Top 10 Light War Games of all Time".
In any event, thanks for the interesting video. I always enjoy watching them.
Arbie8327 Snob.
LOL
***** Vinyl records are still made. A lot.
Holy intro batman! Awesome stuff :)
Thanks for doing these! Very entertaining!
what's the difference between 'wargame' and 'tactical miniatures game'?
It very well could a line in the sand, if you get my meaning. For example, I personally wouldn't put games like Descent or Level 7: Omega Protocol in a war game category, but I'd be okay with calling them both a tactical miniatures game.
Tactical Miniatures Games are essentially war games lite.
Tactical wargames are a subset of the wargame genre. Warhammer Fantasy Battles is a tactical miniatures game, and it's also a wargame. They usually involve moving units (or squads) around a map, flanking your opponent and duking it out.
Operational wargames are similar, except they cover an entire war (or a series of battles within a war), and are on a grander scale, where you don't control individual units (usually) and instead muster forces for an entire faction (usually). A good example of this would be a Fortress Europa.
Lastly, Strategic wargames usually cover an entire war, and are differentiated in that you play the "big picture." The scope is the grandest, and this is where you usually find unit production, with the game time being very long. An example of this would be something like Paths of Glory, which is ranked very, very highly amongst fans of the genre.
A "tactical miniatures game" is another way of wording the first one. Descent is not a tactical miniatures game - it's a game that happens to use miniatures. At its heart, it's an adventure game.
Lord Draje Oh bull. Many of the best ideas in tactical board wargaming were derived from minis. The prime entry points? The monsters Terrible Swift Sword and Wellington's Victory. Nothing light in that lineage.
War themed games and the war-game genre are two different things. This show blends them. I would love to see seperate top ten lists on the genre and the several themes that are covered here.
It is really similar to mixing "Euro-games", games about Europe, and games that are set in Europe. You could get an oddly disjointed list if you mixed them all.
And as far as war game snobs, it really takes a willingness to play simpler more thematic games to get new players, but you have to be careful not to go too far outside of genre. Starting with video games based in WW2 would be a bad idea. A few of the games recommended here would also be poor choices, but all in all a great set of lists.
There was a lot of fighting in the cold war, just not necessarily between the two principle powers involved in the struggle (Korean Conflict, Vietnam War, Genocides and Bombings in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, fueling of tribal warfare in Africa, backing of regimes in South America and the Middle east etc.). Also, area control is a huge part of most wars, so obviously that plays a huge role in war games.
Jordan Williams fvhvhg.
Sorry! I was really waiting for this list from you guys! Watched every Top Ten list and always searching on BBG to add to my want list... I think 3 of you should have made one top 10 together. Can't wait to watch the next one :)
I'm sorry, but what is up with the intro? Random cut scenes from games like Tomb Raider (which isn't even a war game), dubstep and everything. Just doesn't fit the style of this channel.
Pupukummu IDK i will agree it is quite weird
Get over yourself
Yeah, they changed it for latter podcast which is good since it's very iconic
Good lists. While I agree with your broad definition of a war game, I found the opening of the video talked down to my segment of the hobby however you define it. Tastes change and are often generational in nature. It may be true that more complex games are playing to a diminishing audience but it has not been for lack of effort. That said gloating over the potential loss of an art form with high play value should be not an opportunity to insult.
Happy to discuss further,
Mark Herman
Spoken like a boss!
>> Happy to discuss further, -- Would love for this to happen!
Mr. Herman is too humble, but here is a BGG link to his profile, to lend credence to his words: boardgamegeek.com/boardgamedesigner/152/mark-herman
***** You make several excellent points, so let me reply in kind. I would first offer that there are at least a thousand war-games between the excellent Command and Colors and the Longest Day or any of the traditional 'monster' games. I did not have time for the Longest Day when I was eighteen and that has not changed. While I have designed a few monster games in my career, I always made sure that they had multiple competitive scenarios that could be played in an afternoon as time even when I was young was in short supply.
There are two dimensions for what I look for in any game, time commitment and the game narrative/experience. The fine gentlemen of the dice tower who did this video in earlier top x lists have indicated that there were games that they played to death and no longer made their list. Most games that I play are worth one or two goes and then my group moves on. Most people are looking for that newness factor, which keeps the publishers and apparently reviewers in business, so a good thing.
I think this is an important point for me, I want to play a game that remains fresh no matter how many times I play it. That usually means that the game has to have some depth to it or it will not stand the test of time. Games that can do that are generational, such as chess. The vast majority of games in all genres will be forgotten and replaced by newer designs in less than a decade from now. I am not sure if any of my designs will ever pass that test, but that is what I continue to strive for.
Determining what will and will not survive the test of time is not always easy to determine. Quality designs survive no matter how tastes change. And do not confuse popularity with quality. Reality TV is far more popular than documentaries, but documentaries are still here and I doubt anyone will remember any but a few of todays popular shows. The same can be said for the Top 40 music list of any era and Opera, Opera is still here.
This brings in the issue of time commitment. I think 3 hours give or take thirty minutes is one sitting to include set up and break down. In that time period I am looking for the best, most interesting game experience I can have. Games that take more than one session are rare events in my life. So for example the game I play the most regularly is my Empire of the Sun design that takes 3 hours to play the tournament scenario (1943). It never gets old for me and I have been playing it with a band of friends for a decade.
Complexity is only meaningful if it impacts how long it takes to play the game, which I think was the original point of citing games like The Longest Day with several maps and a thousand or more counters. All of the games that I play normally are one map games and take 3 hours. The ones I play often are worth playing over and over as there always seems just a few new things added to the experience each time I play them. Those are the games whether they are war-games or some other artificial taxonomy that we impose on them that are worth playing. And three hours is three hours no matter what the game is about or how complex its design.
Lastly, I want to thank you for your kind remarks about We the People and Washington's War. Note that Washington's War takes two experienced players 90 minutes to play. That was purposeful as I wanted a game that I could play twice in 3 hours with the two competitors switching sides. In the end relative skill is best measured when you play a series of matches.
All the best,
Mark Herman
Mark Herman As far as time and space constraints, the virtual systems can solve these problems. I can't set up my Third Reich game upstairs, but no cats, children, maids, etc ever ruin my vassal setups.
I just want you guys to know that I really love all these lists, regardless of what is being listed. Thank you guys for putting out great content and, and don't forget to ignore the hate!
Ridiculous. Noting that someone is talking about a topic they don't understand isn't hate - it's merely an observation.
Looking over the comments, it seems a lot of you have missed the point. The dice tower guys are not war gamer hobbyists, but general board and card game hobbyists, two distinct groups that obviously have some overlap. I have no interest in hardcore war gaming, but as a general board game hobbyist, I am interested in lighter war games, non-historical themed games, and war themed games. In other words, these are war games for board gamers. If you want a list of hardcore war games, find someone on UA-cam who covers war games specifically. But for the many gamers who are like me, these lists are useful recommendations.
Jees...people are tough with comments. I thought it was a nice Top 10. I watched the whole vid and enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for the great entertainment.
X-Wing IS a wargame. You're reenacting small skirmishes within a larger war.
Dude on the right has an extremely narrow view of wargame. Y'all said "conflict" but X-wing and Twilight Imperium ARE CONFLICT games... based around a war. Just because it's sci-fi does not disqualify it from being a wargame.
Warhammer 40k?
or are you guys afraid of miniature games?
Tom is right about Battleground! If the game is played with figures on movement trays it's a stereotypical WARGAME. It's a wargame for people who can't afford (or be bothered to produce) painted figures. You don't have to like it, but to deny its a wargame is a bit silly.
+Robert Manser When I was a kid I couldn't afford all the miniatures so I would make circles and ovals, etc. with spears on index cards and do the same thing. I use to make my own Transformers out of paper and fold them up (transform them), but I digress. I just ordered a couple of Battleground decks. It looks pretty neat.
Does cyclades titans works with hades expansion?
I just skimmed the comments so I don't know if this has been said before, but... this is one list you probably should have just skipped, or changed the focus of. Very few of these games fit into even a loose description of a "wargame". Wargames are, by their nature, strategy and/or tactics-centric, generally non-abstract (very literal), and focus more on simulation of armed conflict. ALL games have conflict, so that really isn't much of a determination, but strategic/tactical armed conflict is the bread and butter of wargames. Risk is barely a wargame, while Axis and Allies definitely fits the bill. You probably shouldn't have done this list, because A) it really isn't your forte, so you don't really have an informed opinion, B) you didn't have a consensus definition of a wargame before you each did your lists, so none of you are on the same page, and C) I thought you were very dismissive of wargamers and you alluded that their curmudgeonly attitudes effectively invalidates their opinions, which I don't think is fair for multiple reasons. I play wargames and I also play Euros, minis, party games, etc., so I was a little angered by this video. It seemed like your attitude was that you didn't like or play wargames, so you guys made lists of games with wargame elements that you liked better. I like your show, but this wasn't your finest moment.
This group knows about all other games but zero about war games,i have been playing war games for about 30 years,they know absolutely nothing about war games,i have a lot of respect for these men.
Most controversial list so far, I loved it
This should have been titled, "top ten wargames, come at me bro! "
Excellent video, and really pleased Memoir '44 did so well. I'm not so sure why you tended to stay away from skirmish games, but hey, who am I to say you're wrong?
IMHO, the best wargame available today is Atlantic Chase. I know it may not be quite what you guys are looking for, but it's an excellent game, introducing new and - as far as I know - unique mechanics, plus it has a cool painting of the Bismarck on the lid!
Some of the games on your lists I've never heard of, I must find out more about some of them, and maybe even add them to my little collection some of these days.
this would be a lot better if they include pictures of the actual game in this video.
How did AXIS & ALLIES not make these lists??????? Absolutely the best war game ever made!
I played Axis & Allies at tournaments for a number of years and it was the most fun I have ever had with any board game and for this reason I was hoping that it would make this list. The absence is especially confusing since Fortress America made the list and I consider that game to be much more random and a lot less fun.
Tom often will say that those "older games" are not as good as modern games but I don't understand this at all. I have played many modern games (7 Wonders, Scythe, Catan variants, Pandemic, Race for the Galaxy, Raiders of the North Sea, Power Grid, Twilight Imperium, Dominant Species and others) and I like these games a great deal but Axis is bad as compared to them? I am trying to figure out how Tom, Zee and Sam could think that.
I wonder if these guys have played tournament rules with the third edition map and units? First edition rules were terrible as the allies could just put an unlimited complex in Persia and have a 95% chance of winning. Although even first edition rules would be patched by the tournament convention of bidding to see who plays the Axis. Or maybe they played with people who did a lot of research? There is nothing more unbalanced in any game that I have ever liked than heavy bombers so that could explain it. (Just an idea for a top 10 list there Tom, "Top 10 unbalanced rules in games we like"?)
I really like Tom, Zee and Sam and I love Dice Tower videos but I just don't know how they don't consider Axis and Allies to be more of a classic and influential game. Tom even puts Diplomacy on many of his lists though he has clearly said he hates it many times. Why no love for Axis?
Would anyone else be interested in a Dice Tower video explaining why Axis and Allies doesn't get any love?
Love these top ten lists awesome. Do a top ten most played games, the ten games you three play the most.
I’m lookin for a civil war era game with a board of America and a great and thought out combat system, any ideas?
Great Video. Tom, I agree with your argument. If a game is about war it's a war game. Cards, Chits, Boards, miniatures, big rule books, it doesn't matter.
If a game is about europe, it is a eurogame then? If a game is about american trash, that is what qualifies it as AT?
Wargaming is a HOBBY. It is not merely what the conjunction of words seem to indicate. Wargames are the activity of that hobby.
Taking some heat, as expected. We all know what "war game" means in our hobby, and most people watching this aren't interested in them; so you had the right idea bringing it out of the niche and more in line with what your audience wants in games about war. Memoir, 1812, Battlecry -- solid choices -- but you were already on thin ice with the concept for this top 10, and I think the X-wings and the Heroscapes sent it off the rails. Personally, I think you guys can do no wrong -- it's always fun, and you give your opinions without pandering -- but I think in retrospect you could have mitigated some of the damage by defining your terms more clearly. Still not a fail, though; the fact that you permit interpretation allows us to explore our perceptions and biases.
Your intro reminded me of the time I was at NashCon a few years ago. Most of the games played there are historical military simulations played on large tables with miniatures. There's some fantasy, too, and some war boardgames. One of the local Nashville game groups was there and they had their own room and the members brought a good-sized library of "real" boardgames (y'know, the kind you guys like to play). I came in and played a game of Splendor. I got to talking with the other players there and told them I was there mostly for the games played out in the main rooms. One of the other players told me he had never played any of those "fighting games". Sounded very odd, hearing him say that.
Battlore 2.0 has shown up in a few of your lists. How is the replay ability of that game?
Re: Senji - the hostage "system" was actually really common during the pre-Edo period in Japan. Family members are given to each other as hostages in order to gain "trust" that can be betrayed later on.
I never thought I'd hear a dubstep song on a Dice Tower video.
Running gag of all top ten videos, Zee mentions multiple 'out of print' games. Keep up the great videos guys, Zee don't change a bit, I love hearing about the games of obscurity!
So yeah...you guys definately should have gotten together to say what could or couldn't be included in your guys' lists. The majority of this video was just arguing over whether something was or wasn't a war game...blah...not one of your best.
them discussing and arguing is what makes this fun !
In most of their videos, yes...this one didn't work for me.
They do that in every video and imo is distracting and rather annoying. Who cares?!
I'm with you on this one. The endless discussion is a bit boring. It would have been better t just state at the beginning what war games are to you and leave it at that.
Casper Egas Yes....agree as well...I am really tired of Sam...it would be a much better show with Tom and Zee...they are both ethusiastic and far more open-minded than that surly curmudgeon!
My definition of a wargame would include a game of military confrontation, where the mechanisms of the game center around combat. For me, a war-game must involve armed forces, be they ground, naval, air, (or space). This is why I would not include 'Twilight Struggle' as a war-game, and certainly not 'Small World'...as fine a game as each of those are. Still, I know where you guys are coming from, and so I take your list as it is. Entertaining Top Ten episode none-the-less, and I always enjoy just hearing you talk about our favorite hobby in any capacity. :)
That intro is EXTRA bizarre when it shows clips of Tomb Raider next to big "Board Games" text haha. May as well show movie clips while you're at it.
As for the lists, I found this video highly entertaining. Thanks Tom, Zee, and Sam!
I don't what I like more, that you guys leveled criticism at grognards or the intro with dubstep and clips of CoD and Tomb Raider thrown in. LOL Trollin! I love it!
If Duel in the Dark is a wargame, then X-Wing is. Just because one takes place in an atmosphere and one is in space shouldn't make the difference.
"Wargame" in the board game sense is a specific term, it doesn't encompass all games which simulate conflict, but games which simulate HISTORICAL conflicts. A guy who played warhammer 40k wouldn't call himself a wargamer, but a miniatures gamer. A guy who plays Advance Squad Leader, or Battle for North Africa, is more of a "wargamer" in the traditional sense of the word.
koalabrownie ehh watch the channel “Miniwargaming”, basically all they play is Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and they refer to themselves as “War gamers”. I think it’s more that board gamers call players of games like that miniatures gamers while the players themselves do call themselves War Gamers.
I love this video, guys! And although a wargamer, I can perfectly live with your own definition that applies to this video! :)
Make us blow a fuse! Ha! Love it!
I CANNOT!!!! I’m looking for a game with bigger armies and deeper combat with some economic elements. But I don’t want the ultra pretentious wargames with 100 page manuals.... Almost none of the games they listed seemed anything like that! X-wing is ironically more of a good wargame than most of the silly things they mentioned!
Wargames is about, if not simulating, then imitating, military operations.
Just being "about war" is not enough. But I guess Tom realized that.
Starting out alienating wargamers by calling them snotty and "a dying breed" is stupid however.
I don't for a second believe that people are avoiding the hobby because someone says that Twilight Struggle is not a wargame.
Games Mentioned:
1775 Rebellion
Warhammer: Diskwars
Memoir '44
Heroscape
Fortress America
Senji
Battle Cry
X-wing: Miniatures
1812: The Invasion of Canada
Duel in the Dark
Twilight Imperium 3
Twilight Struggle
Risk: Legacy
Combat Commander
Battlelore
Battle of the Five Armies
Kemet
Command and Colors: Ancient
Cyclades
Small World
Battlelore 2.0
Nexus Ops
Tannhauser
Neuroshima Hex
Battleground: Fantasy Warfare
A new game I think you would all enjoy is '1944 Race to the Rhine'. Technically it's a race game rather than and war game, but it feels like a war game- you play as either Patton, Bradley or Monty trying to make it to Germany first following DDay. It's all about logistics, making sure your army corps have enough fuel, ammo and food to keep on going whilst running into German resistance. It looks great and is a really neat concept
Very interesting list. Thanks guys! It might not be a strict selection of war games according to... war gamers. But that makes this list very accessible for non-war gamers while still introducing interesting new games and game concepts to other gamers.
Memoir '44 being readily available...man I missed out!! Also, I've probably watched over 100 dice tower videos since getting into the hobby over a year ago and I've never been as pleased as i was with the small passing compliments to Age Of Conan. Really like that game and wish it received more acclaim. Great video!
I can't believe that on a list of war board games that none of the avalon hills games did not make any list they are the top of the pile of war board games. Axis and allies, battle of the bluge, panzerarmee afrika, and many more. You guys must realy not like to play real war games!
Ricky Morgan It's strange how that era is practically forgotten. Avalon Hill had Squad Leader, Third Reich, Panzer Leader, Fortress Europa, Diplomacy, King Maker. SPI had Terrible Swift Sword and a ton of others.
David Weissman I grew up playing and loving all of those games -- fanatically so. I also enjoy contemporary, far simpler board games of many different classifications, and have played (and still play) what I like (and can find others to play with me), regardless of classification* -- whether it's "War In The West" or "Fluxx" or "chess" or "Neuroshima Hex" or "Among The Stars".
I try not to disparage those with different tastes (as some gamers seem to relish doing) as gaming, like everything else, is a matter of taste.
* IMO, game classification is far from an exact science and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
According to their definition, even a game like "Bang!" would qualify as a war game. It has conflict in it, AND shooting.
I watched this video to get three definitions of what a war game is. I was not disappointed!
A question for Mr. Healey:
Isn't there such a thing as a "tactical level war game?" I'm thinking of Star Fleet Battles, which is a tactical level war game concerned with ship-on-ship combat - not unlike X-Wing (in that very specific sense).
I suppose...but as I've said already in a few different posts here, *I* have purposefully shyed away from space battle games for the purpose of creating *MY* list because they don't fit into *MY* view of what makes a wargame a wargame.
Pre 20th century land battle games are all tactical level wargames.
As are individual ship and plane battles like Wings or Ironclads.
No need to get into the question of fantasy or SF
Sam Healey
Ah, I see. Thanks!
Thanks for the advice guys. Gonna get Memoir 44 and Neuroshima Hex soon as they look pretty awesome. BTW don't really watch the whole video a bit to long for me, I skip to your guy's last top two or one sometimes FYI.
Great video guys. But I think this should be titled "Conflict Games". Looking forward to more Top 10 videos.
I for myself enjoyed this video and their arguments. I think in their own definition they all made sense.
Though I would be still interested in what games would be a great entry into the hobby of war gaming from a "real wargamer" standpoint. Would be cool if someone here would post his "Top 5: War games for beginners" maybe rated from No 1 being the most beginner friendly and 5 the most advanced one.
Sam's face when Tom says "It's better both ways". Comedy gold.
I liked your guys' list. Should probably keep in mind though, that the group of 50+'s that enjoy 'those types' of war games are completely replenishable by a younger generation of gamers LOOKING for 'those types' of games :).
I love the all-inclusiveness of the dice tower, and you guys have enough going on in this channel to satisfy most types of gamers. Rather than a bold statement that excludes folks like 'if you don't like our list, too bad', maybe the better statement is 'this is what we think are the best war games, for those with a more acute taste for those types of games, see our guys HAMTAG on this channel'.
Keep up the good work boys, This channel has been a great supplement to my board gaming hobby. Cheers!
For me, a lot of "War Gamers" are actually "Battle Gamers" because they generally play a battle rather than a whole war (unless they are doing a whole campaign of course). I like battle games and skirmish games but I don't like games such as Risk, which to me is a "war" game, but I love Memoir '44, Dead Zone etc.
Love the shows, love the channel; keep it going guys.
I think the debate about what makes up ____ game is one of the most fun parts of the list. Take out the debate/conflict and it becomes less fun to watch for me, really enjoyed this video!
I agree that classification arguments are fun. In this case though, you have three people with no real understanding of the hobby they are talking about - except to essentially deny its own definitions of itself. Such debates need to be from knowledge to be interesting.
I'm wondering if any one can tell me the better game between comand and colours napoleonics and for the people cheers
I'm 19 now and I absolutely love the grognard type wargames, that's what I mainly like to play. I also have two friends who are the same and even a bit younger. And this is 4 years after this video was uploaded.
I think some people miss the point here. The guys were making a list of war games (the subject matter), not war games (the genre). Titles and labels are whatever the majority of people want them to be. Just because a game does not fit in the genre doesn't mean it doesn't fit in the subject matter. War games (the genre) is not the only types of games dealing with war. Stop being so narrow-minded and clingy to the "labels."
Then they could have done themselves a lot of good by making that clear upfront. It wasn't.
They did. Did you not hear them say up front that people will be upset by their choices and how they explained what they consider a war gam. Again, talking about subject matter and not gene
Colton Gregory
Sure, but it wasn't until halfway through that we heard opinions like "I disincluded any space games" or "Wargames typically involve governments" or there being a difference between wargames and area control games, or wargames and tactical miniatures games, or what level/size of conflict is necessary to qualify as a wargame. Your point about whether they were addressing genre or subject matter was NOT made clear, hence why many of the choices were received with squinted eyes (Small World, Twilight Struggle, X-Wing, etc).
To be clear, I agree with your original point; these lines are blurry and labels are for the most part, pretty silly, especially when they cause hositility. I didn't like their Top Ten SciFi and Fantasy lists for that reason; I felt their arguments indicated a very narrow vision of these genres. I liked many of the choices here, but honestly, this list was a mess, and could have been handled much better, without the diatribe toward a whole group of gamers.
Fester Blats
First of all, I don't think putting a space between two words is sufficiently laying out the parameters they used to make the list, especially when the UA-cam video title, the title that appears in the video itself, and the title of the list that Tom actually says out loud, can wildly differ.
Secondly, that doesn't really address my point. I'm well aware of the distinction between "wargames" and "war games", and if these guys had just explained at the beginning how they settled on their titles, that would have been it. But as I said, it wasn't until halfway through that we heard things like space games being discounted or the need for governments to be involved, or war vs. battle vs. skirmish games. I'm willing to count anything from ASL to Small World as a "war game", but be clear about that up front.
I love the Dice Tower crew, but in my humble opinion this list was a disorganized mess and one of the few big gaffes they've made.
So, you guys have gotten some flak for this list, but I think it was very entertaining. The more conflict there is (abstract or otherwise) during the video, the better, imho. I was interested to see where you would all land on the definitions of "wargames," and you stuck very close to my prediction. Good job and keep it up!
Also, I knew Zee was going to pick himself to go first....and yeah, the intro is....ok. But still, awesome all around, now I have a couple more games to check out.
Another entertaining list. Thanks. I've had great times with many, many old AH and SPI war games, but it was nice hearing about these wonderful games as well. I'll have to check out a few of the ones I haven't seen yet. Please shorten the arguments over semantics so you can spend more time explaining what you like about each game.
Love your top ten lists and am not by any means an avid wargamer but you guys really did spend too much time jabbing at the grognards and arguing amongst yourselves. A fairly forgettable entry in the series considering how stellar many of your offerings have been. As always, the effort is appreciated!
Great video
Let them have their definition, because in the end those war games age much more fun and entertaining then those die hard 2000 page rulebook and chart fest games anyway.
In the end it's another fun video about three fun games bantering about games, why can't people just enjoy that? :-)
I neither own, nor have seen, a game with a '2000' page rule book. Many of the wargames I own have less pages in their rule books than euros.
It's poorly informed opinions like yours and Tom's that are damaging our niche hobby, not wargamers themselves.
Less flaming please. In that case stick with Hamtag who seem like they live and breathe war games. "proper" war games aren't an interest for me. But 3 guys opinions on a video aren't going to destroy the niche by themselves.
Luke Hector It's probably more of the stigma that wargames have than anything. I don't know how it got that way, but the games that place such an emphasis on realism and accuracy would probably obsess over details :)
That said...this isn't helping...and these guys do have some clout in the very niche boardgame community. I essentially got called a name for liking a tabletop game. :/
Kyle Perryman No, I don't think that's quite true. The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of "serious" wargamers like to exclude & talk down on games that they don't find to be "up to their standards". There is a large grey zone between "regular" games and wargames, and by excluding it, you just seem like an elitist and if that's the first contact people have with the "serious" wargaming hobby, then I can understand why they feel that it is very offputting. It also makes it needlessly hard to convince people to transition from a "light" game to one of the more "serious" ones. That's why I'm for an inclusive definition.
I am by the way saying this as someone who enjoys games like World in Flames and Lock 'n Load, but also games like Axis & Allies and Warhammer.
My definition of a war game:
1) There have to be armies involved, not individuals.
2) Armies have to be mustered and mobilized on a map.
3) Combat has to be the ultimate determinant of win conditions (i.e. you can't win the game by building/gathering resources or earning non-combat victory points)
So, I don't consider TI3 to be a war game, nor Heroscape, nor Neuroshima Hex. I consider Memoir 44, Battle Cry, Commands and Colors, Battlelore, Risk, Axis and Allies, and would even allow Small World to all be war games. So there! (Nee ner nee ner nee ner)
Any chance for a Top 10 Most Cost-Efficient Games? I would love to get your opinions on what games are truly worth the price for those of us living more day to day. I loved the Stocking Stuffers episode, but really don't mind spending over $20 as long as it has the play-value.
The mechanic that Zee mentions in Senji is also very prevalent, if I'm not mistaken, in Here I Stand - the idea of having a secret negotiation with somebody that's necessarily fully binding.
I enjoyed this list! People debating over genres doesn't bother me, and I don't think there was too much of it in this video. Question, do y'all prefer Twilight Struggle or Labyrinth?
Would you guys consider Space Hulk a war game?
I will play any game anyone puts in front of me, but my favorite games are war games. I just don't get to play them very often because it's hard to find anyone in my area to play with. I don't know if "dying breed" is the correct term, but I agree with his premise. The category isn't dominant, like it used to be.There just aren't that many of us anymore. I enjoyed your lists. I love any list that includes Duel In The Dark, so Sam easily won this video. lol. I haven't played many of the games on your lists, but I wrote them down and am going to try to play as many of them as I can to see why you like them so much. I have to say that your defense of your ability to make this list isn't necessary and a little overdone. If you have never played the games, then you shouldn't make the list; but if you have played them and wanted to make a list, then there is no reason why you shouldn't. These lists are your opinions. You aren't stating a fact. You aren't saying that these are the definitive best war games ever. They are the ones you like best - your top ten. If the fan boys have a problem, let them flame. It's what people do best on the net nowadays. Great lists (especially Sam. haha)!
Loved the video and I can't understand the hate for the opening comments. If you're not the type of wargamer he was describing then Tom wasn't talking about you. Period.
This one is all over the place without parameters as far as what is a "wargame". I'd like to see another video where you stick to a common interpretation. I enjoyed some of your suggestions nonetheless.
I am with cliffside bunker on this one. How can axis&allies not be on it at all. I mean you are disregarding it because of the fact that it is large or takes long to play. It is still one of the most if not the war game to have on this. Can't really believe it isn't mentioned on the list even as a 10 for each of you if you personally don't like it. And risk legacy??? Only because it's short.