There's just no way this guy just decided to stab himself (TWICE!) in the middle of an argument right after cutting his hands and arm with the same knife and also writing a very vague note on a post it.. bro come on now. Oh and the person he's fighting with conveniently touches the murder weapon before any witnesses come and has also changed their story multiple times.
Sorry yea there is a way….it happens ….wasn’t like he was normal person or anything ….try using critical thinking and a better understanding of complex emotions…..clearly you’re not a detective nor highly a critical thinker to state all this nonsense. We won’t ever know for sure what happened…..but yea go ahead and think an uneducated opinion is somehow worth anything. Don’t pretend to know for any FACT nor any facts about changing stories ….you do know 95% of ALL that is rumor.
I never have thought that it was a "suicide note", and especially not one for this specific incident. Like a lot of the other stuff in this case it just doesn't sit right with me. The whole thing is sketchy at best. Peace.
@Cute Dog 99 it’s a song lyrics from an Elliott Smith song people just always mistake him for saying shiva like the god but he’s really saying Chiba peoooe just didn’t know his gfs name when they write the lyrics on website and shit so everyone just doesn’t know anything about this line unless your really into Elliott smiths lyrics
Alyson Camus I believe what you say about the contradictory actions. Dependents/addicts DONT LIKE physical pain. It’s one of the main reasons we continue to use opioids/ alcohol. Honestly there’s something foul going on in the situation. Stabbing through muscle and chest plate to the heart is The opposite of painless.
Hahaha how silly and immature understanding of addiction and mental illness do you have?! 😂🤣🙄 Wow! Sorry dear I’m an addict clean for 8yrs off heroin AND fight many mental illnesses ….I’m 53. Sorry I physically harmed myself from the age of 12….and in many cases very severely……so ENOUGH with the uneducated nonsense that addicts don’t like pain blah blah just 🤮 what TF Try getting actually educated about it all this is a 💩 silly take.
my name is allison too. in 2018 i posted the replicated note, to annotate his writing, his S his actual handwriting, and along with his wounds and stab wounds. i also investigated this. thank you alyson camus. i also wrote to the author of torment saint (label, thanks) who told me to just read the book. im not gonna buy it now and probabbly wont ever until there is a real investigation. i am interested in the investigation, the evidence, and the scientific proof of the real things, like his wounds, his handwriting, the person, the bodies, and her going into the bathroom and wearing a white blanket. a sure sign of either trauma, witness or perpetrator. after something so ----no words----- like that, thats more likely true than not. elliott was a writer, and his handwriting does not look the same as that note, but that's the replicated note.
the note is in the police's possession. Nobody can see it! so the replicated note is probably not based on the real one. Schultz told you to read his book? What a jerk. He is friends with Chiba so he did nothing to solve this case, he just believed what she told him and did a great disservice to Elliott with his 'Torment Saint' book. I am working on something bigger than these videos. I talked to many experts and neighbors... Thank you
@@alycamus i also understand people make money off dead artist's lives, and people involved with therapy, are also usually not honest. they all have their own issues. so im not reading the book. And good luck to you, with more of your investigating.
I actually was more convinced than ever that Chiba did it after I read that book. I don’t remember why, it’s been years since I’ve read it but I’m surprised to learn that the author is friends with Chiba, I remember there being quotes from people who said she was nuts in it. Unless I’m thinking of another book. I lent it to a friend who lives on the opposite side of the country from me so I can’t even check lol
Among the many great points you raise, there is one that really got me thinking: You point out the shortness of the note, but Elliott was one of the most brilliant wordsmiths of his generation, and there is simply no way that he would have left his final statement to the world consist of a few banalities left on a Post-it Note. That was not meant as a suicide note, unless someone was trying (but not very successfully) to make it look as though he wrote one, which he certainly didn't do.
From just a first grade investigation standpoint, The whole thing wouldn’t even qualify as a clown show! Just leaving the only other person that was present, alone at the “crime scene” Would rate someone (even a rookie responder, much less a detective) getting fired for gross negligence. I could go on for about 500 words on just what little I know about the whole thing, But I think y’all get the point.
also im making a comment about the artist who did this. He does not have an apostrophe on his post it note replica. His version of Kurt Cobain's note looks pretty right on, but if his note is missing an apostrophe for Elliott's, then i am not very pleased. The artist project is good, to raise the question and to help us think about investigations and what an investigation contemplates, but that apostrophe too bothers me. is there an actual apostrophe in the real note?
The problem with this “suicide” is that they want us to believe it was spontaneous (no hesitation marks, stabbing through the clothes…) AND well thought out (the suicide note). It cannot be both ways or it was not a suicide.
I'm so on the fence about what to believe! The Ian Gowing response to Alyson presented a lot of statements that made me think suicide sounded very plausible, but at the same time, how insane does it sound that Elliott would take the time to write a suicide note (indicating forethought) and then without any hesitation marks stab himself twice in the chest as if he acted impulsively? Why won't the authorities try to determine if the note was actually in his handwriting? How hard is it to do that? There are pictures of his handwritten lyrics, for God's sake!
heres a question: if you came out of the room you were in blah blah blah, and there supposedly was a knife in the person body, this person you also supposedly loved, would you leave the knife in, and call 911 or would you pull it out? in the moment
@@alycamus right, if i was inmy own home, with this person i knew oh so well, and loved, loved, i would be calm with them, tell them its gonna be ok, im calling for help. and go to the phone. in your home, you have a phone. like how people react to someone when they are dying. i think she made it up. the whole story he turned around she saw. i think they possibly got in a fight too, she grabbed the knife, he tried to defend himself, and she just stabbed him two times.
He changed his name when he was young, in high school. However someone who used to be very close told me he never signed anything with ‘Elliott.’ He just used E.
You don’t understand my point. The tone of the alleged suicide note (apologetic) and the act of self-stabbing are in complete contradiction. You don’t apologize when you are going to do such a heinous act. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that stabbing yourself in front of a partner is a very aggressive act. He could not have experienced these two opposite states of mind at the same time. This has nothing to do with adrenaline….
You seem certain, so I'll try to rewatch more closely later on, but I don't want to jump to conclusions. I just started looking into his death recently. What's stopping someone from apologizing for such an act? People don't only experience emotions one at a time. Suicidality often overpowers empathy, even strong empathy. Couldn't it be that Elliott was apologizing for more than his alleged suicide? Not to say he was guilty of anything. Doesn't seem that contradictory to me, you can't be suggesting it was merely a gesture of hatred or vengeance toward her
@@northstar92 this is what a forensic psychologist (with a lot of experience) told me. Again, apologizing while committing such an act (an act that could have traumatized her for life) is inconceivable on a psychological point of view. I have been looking into his death for many years and talked to many many people. Plus this note could have been written at any time, any day, as nothing suggests it was a suicide note. Interestingly, in his book Torment Saint, Schultz says they were used to writing notes to each other. They were fighting on a daily basis told me a neighbor, so they were also reconciling on a daily basis. Plus why writing a note to someone who is right there, behind a door? Suicide notes are generally addressed to someone who is not there and found in cases of planned suicides. Everything in this case suggests this was not planned (whether it was a suicide or a homicide). I have never bought it not as a suicide note because it’s not one.
We have to do more. There will never be a conviction. Too much time has passed. People forget. People change their stories. But we can make Jennifer Chiba's life miserable. Or at least change the narrative. I can't let this go.
@@alycamus I'm about finished with your book. And I just can't let this go. I don't know what else there is to do. But I want to do something. I know for sure I'm sending the DA of LA your book! Maybe I'll try to reach out to Chiba. Part of me feels at this point all anyone can do is get an interview with her. Maybe get her mad and hit her hard with the tough questions. I don't know.
@@BatSTUD thank you! The current DA has a reputation to be soft on crimes so I am not sure he will resuscitate a dormant investigation but we never know. New evidence may come from the public and we need to keep looking. An interview would certainly be interesting, but she needs to gain something to be interested, do you work for a major publication? Last time she accepted to be interviewed it was for Spin or for Schultz’s bio!
@@alycamus I don't work for any publication. I'm honestly just a concerned citizen. I remember hearing about his "suicide" in 2003 and just accepting the story. Even feeling sorry for the girlfriend who I didn't know anything about at the time. I remember even watching a comedian talk about the "balls" that Elliott Smith had, striking his chest not once but twice with a sharp KITCHEN knife. Not even a combat knife. And it just stayed with me. Something about it all bothered me. I always held onto it. But I also let it go. A few weeks ago, I was in the shared office my girlfriend and I use, plotting out a road trip mix tape (if you will, haha), and I was playing some Heatmiser music and she was intrigued. So I went into the whole story (especially because she's a huge Jimmy Eat World fan and there's a Heatmiser reference in "Kill" that she didn't know about), and I thought to myself, what's new on the investigation and the subject. And that led me to you and your book. Now I know why I held onto it for so many years. Because something was ALWAYS rotten in Denmark. In my soul, I always knew it was murder, but I was younger and naïve and trusted the institutions. I come from a family of cops so I just kind of went with it. And I realize now, I was conned by the suicidal, sad junkie narrative that became so mainstream so quickly. I've finished your book now and it was so well done, Alyson. Thank you for your work. But I feel like there has to be more we can do. I know we're not going to get a conviction. We're probably never going to get an admission. But maybe we could make Chiba's life miserable? Maybe we could let the whole world know who she really is? I don't know how we do that. And I'm just talking out loud. But maybe there's a way.
also, another point, chiba says elliott killed himself, well she pulled the knife out, if that's even really the all (reference from your other video with the jchiba clip from the gus vant sant film on your account).
also reading your website justiceforelliottsmithcom.wordpress.com/jennifer-chiba/who-is-jennifer-chiba/#:~:text=Chiba%20was%20Elliott%20Smith's%20girlfriend,kitchen%20knife%20in%20his%20chest. Chiba was Elliott Smith’s girlfriend when he died in 2003. On October 21st, 2003, the couple was arguing, she said she locked herself in the bathroom for 5-10 minutes, heard a scream, opened the bathroom door and found Elliott standing with his back to her. When he turned around, she saw the kitchen knife in his chest. (what kind of scream to come out of the bathroom after arguing) (He turned around) She told police that she pulled the knife out of his chest and saw “two cuts” before he walked away and collapsed. She called 911 at 12:18 p.m. and performed CPR and first aid with a dispatcher’s help until paramedics arrived. Elliott died at County-USC Medical Center 78 minutes later. When police officers questioned her at the kitchen table, she pointed out a Post-it note (the alleged suicide note).
@@alycamus the family, the victim's own family... has not seen the note. i am flabbergasted at learning this too. really? they shoudl be allowed since that is their son's supposed own hand writing if it is
@@coolkitty1356 this is what I was told by someone. And this from a family member: 'We tried to get information from the police through the Freedom of Information Act, even through our attorney, and were unsuccessful.'
@@alycamus is this straight from the family or are you quoting what the family said to the someone else, according to that someone else. i dont want to mess with the family's testimony or witness, but they as a family, are witnesses to their son's own handwriting so pretty sure technically, they would have that right, since the victim is their son. not messing with family testimony.
@@alycamus lastly i of course have to leave this comment here then, if no one has seen that post it note, but the artist made a copy of kurt cobains, how can he make a copy of this note? if no one has seen it, including the artist, isnt that contradictory. but also, now that i mention, maybe the point. the whole post it note the artist replicated according here when you say no one has seen is a lie then too and is therefore misleading.
its right to say that all your reflections on state of mind, etc. are just speculations, hasn't any factual value, it's just what u would have said in a conversation with a friend. I personally think he was capable of doing so, but not necessary for anger towards his partner, it was not just a momentary thing
Bruno sm.l one of my points is that the two acts, writing an apology and stabbing yourself twice in the chest, are highly contradictory. These are 2 different states of mind and he could not have done it in 5 minutes, the time she said she was in the bathroom. This is not speculation, she said that. Plus I asked a forensic psychologist about it and she agreed. She also said that people who kill themselves in front of a partner is an aggressive act directed at this partner. They were fighting, remember? They were very loud, I talked to their neighbors.
@@alycamus sorry Alyson, but all u saying is bullshit, and dont mean to be AGRESSIVE. Those u are nameing could be tendencies, but isn't contradictory at the end to kill yourself to harm the other? At the end u dont do it, 'couse you know u gonna die. I may have been similar experiences. On the other way, we all know Elliott was not an agressive type at all, "I was bad news for you jusr because/ I never meant to hurt you", remember? Being so senciere in his lyrics, elliott was very ellocuent with what he was sayin cause he putted everything in there. But to be clear, what you present as arguments are not (although u seem m to take them that way) universal things, again, could be tendencies, but its way too naif to say oh that couldn't have happened couse this and that, i dont know how old are u but seems pretty unmatured. I mean the argument, don't know u as a person. Something u dont seem to be taking acount is that he said please forgive me cause he was going to kill himself, not for something he've done before. That seems pretty obvious. Sorry to be so long but..
Bruno sm.l it’s not bullshit when I asked several forensic experts (psychologists and doctors) and they all agreed with me. Who are you? An expert in stabbing?
Bruno sm.l you have no idea about all the forensic literature about the subject. I also spent some time reading it. I know that this is about the suicide note, but sternum injuries do not happen in cases of self stabbing.
@@alycamus do u know what a forensic job is about? Analysing a dead men. They work on cases and like in all cases many thing are said. In psychology, u can take many types of psychology, there is no one that says THIS IS THE TRUE CAUSE I SAY SO COUSE IM AN EXPERT. That just doesing exist. But what it IS true, and i repeat my self to lead de discussion in a smart way, is that what u regard as universal things are simply not. They are tendencies. U simply CAN'T KNOW what was the state of mind of the person in case here, Elliott. Because he was and in a sense is a person, dont forget that. I find it even desrespectful to him being talking all that. U obviously didnt even like his music.
Or check this theory out: what if almost everything you said in the video is true about how people usually don’t leave notes, and If they do they’re not short or aren’t laid out like his was, and why would he apologize after just fighting and how could he have had the time to write that and stab himself etc. etc. and you basically got everything right except the outcome? Because like you said they left each other notes all the time on post it’s and it wasn’t dated right? So your right it wasn’t a suicide note it was actually written by smith the previous day and she just hadn’t noticed it yet? Your entire video backs up the theory that HE DID kill himself, didn’t leave a note like you explained most don’t, didn’t apologize in it changing mind states, had plenty of time to just Stab himself, and did so cause he was distressed after a fight? Obviously some of the points you bring up can’t be answered cause they’re just stupid like “he would have cooled down in 5-10 minutes” yea unless he was using that time to kill himself.
It’s not stupid when the police (I talked to several LAPD homicide detectives including J King who is still in charge of the case) and a forensic psychologist have agreed with this. There’s obviously a mountain of other things that make the case suspicious but this video is only on the note. I really don’t see how this video backs up the theory he killed himself. Chiba is the one who told the police this was a suicide note. Don’t you think it was very convenient for her theory?
And for your info, it was not AFTER a fight, I talked to a neighbor who was living next door and he heard the fight then he said there was a long silence following the stabbing. The stabbing occurred during the fight
@@alycamus oh thank you for informing me that you uncovered there wasn’t a fight, I was just confused because you know IN YOUR VIDEO YOU DISCUSS A FIGHT SUPPOSEDLY TAKING PLACE
Nobody knows what actually happened but the reasoning in this video shows no understanding of suicide. Not even considering that so many of his songs reveal profound depression. Who cares if a minority of people leave notes? Then he was in the minority. How is 10-15 minutes not long enough to write a short one and stab yourself? Especially if you are considering it a rash and violent act. When people have a history of suicidality, what often stops them is not wanting to hurt people. They often have even planned to write an apologetic note. So it's not a contradiction that he was angry. Regardless, the note wasn't just intended for her, but all his loved ones. He wasn't thinking about not wanting to cast suspicion on her because he didn't think that would happen if he thought it was a clear suicide. He used a post-it note because it was just there. And he would have DATED it? Give me a break.
Your comment shows no understanding of the mechanics of stabbing yourself! This is not any suicide, this is self stabbing with 2 deep wounds including one as deep as 7 inch, in the heart and through the sternum! this is gruesome and it is extremely hard to do such a thing and it was not 10-15 but only 5-10 min! Chiba herself said it. You are missing the entire point, it’s a very short amount of time to accomplish such a prowess because if he stabbed himself in the chest, it was a very impulsive act, whereas writing a note is the opposite of that. Writing such a note was not an impulsive and angry act. This is not my opinion, I talked to several experts including a forensic psychologist who clearly told me that writing an apology note and stabbing yourself in 5-10 min are two acts that required 2 totally opposite states of mind . Plus the note is extremely vague and not addressed to his family at all, it’s addressed to Chiba who was right there. People who write suicide notes do not write a note to a person who stays 5 minute behind a door, it’s ridiculous. On the contrary to what you are saying, if he did it, he clearly wanted to hurt her. I would have been traumatized to see my boyfriend with a knife in his chest.
@@alycamus As I said, nobody knows what actually happened and if the video were solely about how difficult it is to stab oneself, that is something else. I'm talking about the psychology. For the sake of brevity I will leave out the "if he DID do it...." His note was not addressed to Jennifer so it was not just to her. All he said was he was sorry, so it's not like he sat down and took time to compose it, it took 5 seconds. And as I said, if he was a historically suicidal person at all (which is clear), he had already planned to write a note if he decided to actually do it and clearly, if we deduce anything from his note, what had stopped him was not wanting to hurt people, the primary reason suicidal people don't do it. Of course he knew it would traumatize her, but he made the desperate decision of wanting to die over protecting her. Maybe the fight gave him the fuel and strength he needed to go through with it, but it wasn't about her, it was about himself.
And if he didn’t want to cast suspicion on her, he should have been more clear and never do that in front of her: the police thought the case was suspicious enough to let it open for 17 years!
@@blinkinglightbeacon7704 I made other videos about self stabbing, and you cannot reconcile the violence and the anger of such an act with this trite apologetic note. Again your analysis of psychology is flawed here, as I said I talked to forensic psychologists. Plus I am fed up with this Elliott Smith was suicidal... he talked about suicide yes, he wrote about it but this does not mean he was suicidal all his life. I met him several times and talked to him shortly before he died, I also talked to many people who interacted with him shortly before he died, he was doing well. Such a violent and aggressive act is deeply incompatible with his nature.
And it’s false to say nobody knows what happens. Chiba knows and the big problem, if you have paid attention, is that she has changed her story many times....
Omg aside from the smith stuff your knowledge of mental illness and emotions is insanely OFF….sorry rage at someone and yourself and then suicide is more common than you think. And wouldn’t the forgive me be not about the fight 🙄 BUT THE SUICIDE. And plenty of suicide notes are VERY SHORT I’ve read 100s (there’s books about it). He had severe mental illness issues…I have them too and sorry it’s very plausible in rage and all else he did this….we will never know. But to act like somehow the note is Just o so irrational and blah blah just NOT TRUE. You have a very immature grasp of emotions and how they interact ESPECIALLY someone with deep seated mental issues.
I am sorry but I talked with a forensic psychologist who had a long experience so I don’t think this is off. She told me that rage at someone (committing suicide in front of someone) and expressing forgiveness (like this note shows) are two opposite feelings and Elliott couldn’t have felt both of them in 5 minutes (the time that Chiba supposedly locked herself in the bathroom). As for the “severely mentally ill” you are either diagnosing someone you have never met or projecting a lot or repeating Chiba’s words. I am currently talking with one of Elliott’s childhood friends and, he tells me that, yes, Elliott suffered from depression, but all other diagnostics are a complete exaggeration
There's just no way this guy just decided to stab himself (TWICE!) in the middle of an argument right after cutting his hands and arm with the same knife and also writing a very vague note on a post it.. bro come on now. Oh and the person he's fighting with conveniently touches the murder weapon before any witnesses come and has also changed their story multiple times.
Sorry yea there is a way….it happens ….wasn’t like he was normal person or anything ….try using critical thinking and a better understanding of complex emotions…..clearly you’re not a detective nor highly a critical thinker to state all this nonsense. We won’t ever know for sure what happened…..but yea go ahead and think an uneducated opinion is somehow worth anything. Don’t pretend to know for any FACT nor any facts about changing stories ….you do know 95% of ALL that is rumor.
I never have thought that it was a "suicide note", and especially not one for this specific incident. Like a lot of the other stuff in this case it just doesn't sit right with me. The whole thing is sketchy at best. Peace.
i also want to know if they did a toxicology for Jennifer Chiba
I would like to know this too!
Chiba opens her arms now to make sure I don’t get too far” people never read between the lines until he was dead
@Cute Dog 99 it’s a song lyrics from an Elliott Smith song people just always mistake him for saying shiva like the god but he’s really saying Chiba peoooe just didn’t know his gfs name when they write the lyrics on website and shit so everyone just doesn’t know anything about this line unless your really into Elliott smiths lyrics
@Cute Dog 99 it’s the song “son of sam”
@@ThisiswhyWecanthavenicethingshe is saying “Shiva”, he wrote Son Of Sam before he met Jennifer
There was defensive wounds on both of his hands
Not true what so ever more made up rumors ….
Alyson Camus I believe what you say about the contradictory actions. Dependents/addicts DONT LIKE physical pain. It’s one of the main reasons we continue to use opioids/ alcohol. Honestly there’s something foul going on in the situation. Stabbing through muscle and chest plate to the heart is The opposite of painless.
I believe Elliot was actually clean at the time of his death
karen gozra yeah I know. That doesn’t change anything about what I said though.
karen gozra What I said is in general for mindsets of someone who has used
Hahaha how silly and immature understanding of addiction and mental illness do you have?! 😂🤣🙄 Wow! Sorry dear I’m an addict clean for 8yrs off heroin AND fight many mental illnesses ….I’m 53. Sorry I physically harmed myself from the age of 12….and in many cases very severely……so ENOUGH with the uneducated nonsense that addicts don’t like pain blah blah just 🤮 what TF
Try getting actually educated about it all this is a 💩 silly take.
@@Puppy_Puppingtonnope NOT TRUE AT ALL
my name is allison too. in 2018 i posted the replicated note, to annotate his writing, his S his actual handwriting, and along with his wounds and stab wounds. i also investigated this. thank you alyson camus. i also wrote to the author of torment saint (label, thanks) who told me to just read the book. im not gonna buy it now and probabbly wont ever until there is a real investigation.
i am interested in the investigation, the evidence, and the scientific proof of the real things, like his wounds, his handwriting, the person, the bodies, and her going into the bathroom and wearing a white blanket. a sure sign of either trauma, witness or perpetrator. after something so ----no words----- like that, thats more likely true than not.
elliott was a writer, and his handwriting does not look the same as that note, but that's the replicated note.
the note is in the police's possession. Nobody can see it! so the replicated note is probably not based on the real one. Schultz told you to read his book? What a jerk. He is friends with Chiba so he did nothing to solve this case, he just believed what she told him and did a great disservice to Elliott with his 'Torment Saint' book. I am working on something bigger than these videos. I talked to many experts and neighbors... Thank you
@@alycamus i also understand people make money off dead artist's lives, and people involved with therapy, are also usually not honest. they all have their own issues. so im not reading the book. And good luck to you, with more of your investigating.
@@coolkitty1356 thank you! Schultz had definitely an agenda. I encourage people to read his book and make their own opinion though!
@@alycamus cool, that's a great outlook
I actually was more convinced than ever that Chiba did it after I read that book. I don’t remember why, it’s been years since I’ve read it but I’m surprised to learn that the author is friends with Chiba, I remember there being quotes from people who said she was nuts in it. Unless I’m thinking of another book. I lent it to a friend who lives on the opposite side of the country from me so I can’t even check lol
Among the many great points you raise, there is one that really got me thinking: You point out the shortness of the note, but Elliott was one of the most brilliant wordsmiths of his generation, and there is simply no way that he would have left his final statement to the world consist of a few banalities left on a Post-it Note.
That was not meant as a suicide note, unless someone was trying (but not very successfully) to make it look as though he wrote one, which he certainly didn't do.
I agree, it's such a trite 'suicide' note. I never thought it was a suicide note
Yea or a simple explanation is it wasn’t a suicide note and just hadn’t been noticed by his girlfriend until after the incident
she was his handler! LAPD helped cover it up by “dropping the ball” they always use “incompetence” to cover their intentional mishandling
yeah he was fresh off that sus rehab wasn't he... always thought something wasn't right as a kid reading the autopsy on the smoking gun lol
From just a first grade investigation standpoint,
The whole thing wouldn’t even qualify as a clown show!
Just leaving the only other person that was present, alone at the “crime scene”
Would rate someone (even a rookie responder, much less a detective) getting fired for gross negligence.
I could go on for about 500 words on just what little I know about the whole thing,
But I think y’all get the point.
also im making a comment about the artist who did this. He does not have an apostrophe on his post it note replica. His version of Kurt Cobain's note looks pretty right on, but if his note is missing an apostrophe for Elliott's, then i am not very pleased. The artist project is good, to raise the question and to help us think about investigations and what an investigation contemplates, but that apostrophe too bothers me. is there an actual apostrophe in the real note?
Suicide isnt logical or always well thought out. Many times its spontaneous and irrational. That said i do really doubt this one.
The problem with this “suicide” is that they want us to believe it was spontaneous (no hesitation marks, stabbing through the clothes…) AND well thought out (the suicide note). It cannot be both ways or it was not a suicide.
I'm so on the fence about what to believe! The Ian Gowing response to Alyson presented a lot of statements that made me think suicide sounded very plausible, but at the same time, how insane does it sound that Elliott would take the time to write a suicide note (indicating forethought) and then without any hesitation marks stab himself twice in the chest as if he acted impulsively? Why won't the authorities try to determine if the note was actually in his handwriting? How hard is it to do that? There are pictures of his handwritten lyrics, for God's sake!
heres a question: if you came out of the room you were in blah blah blah, and there supposedly was a knife in the person body, this person you also supposedly loved, would you leave the knife in, and call 911 or would you pull it out? in the moment
also she didn't call 911 immediately
@@alycamus right, if i was inmy own home, with this person i knew oh so well, and loved, loved, i would be calm with them, tell them its gonna be ok, im calling for help. and go to the phone. in your home, you have a phone. like how people react to someone when they are dying. i think she made it up. the whole story he turned around she saw. i think they possibly got in a fight too, she grabbed the knife, he tried to defend himself, and she just stabbed him two times.
@@coolkitty1356 and she supposedly was a licensed therapist
Any intelligent adult (freaked out or not) KNOWS not to pull out any object from a stab wound to the heart or major arteries.
@@alycamus I have no idea,
Does having a therapist license require CPR/first aid training?
So many different jobs require it.
Does anyone know when he changed his name to Elliott? If it were my suicide note, I probably would've used my real name.
He changed his name when he was young, in high school. However someone who used to be very close told me he never signed anything with ‘Elliott.’ He just used E.
@@alycamus Interesting. I read his autopsy yesterday and they used Steven Paul Smith - not Elliott.
@@finlake6971 yeah, but which one? Torment Saint or Elliott Smith and the Big Nothing?
@@alycamus No, his death autopsy.
@@finlake6971 sorry, I didn't read correctly :) yeah, it's normal they have to use his real name on official papers. what did you think?
I think using rational thought here is why things don't add up
5-10 minutes is plenty of time when you're flooded with adrenaline
You don’t understand my point. The tone of the alleged suicide note (apologetic) and the act of self-stabbing are in complete contradiction. You don’t apologize when you are going to do such a heinous act. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you that stabbing yourself in front of a partner is a very aggressive act. He could not have experienced these two opposite states of mind at the same time. This has nothing to do with adrenaline….
You seem certain, so I'll try to rewatch more closely later on, but I don't want to jump to conclusions. I just started looking into his death recently.
What's stopping someone from apologizing for such an act? People don't only experience emotions one at a time. Suicidality often overpowers empathy, even strong empathy. Couldn't it be that Elliott was apologizing for more than his alleged suicide? Not to say he was guilty of anything. Doesn't seem that contradictory to me, you can't be suggesting it was merely a gesture of hatred or vengeance toward her
@@northstar92 this is what a forensic psychologist (with a lot of experience) told me. Again, apologizing while committing such an act (an act that could have traumatized her for life) is inconceivable on a psychological point of view. I have been looking into his death for many years and talked to many many people. Plus this note could have been written at any time, any day, as nothing suggests it was a suicide note. Interestingly, in his book Torment Saint, Schultz says they were used to writing notes to each other. They were fighting on a daily basis told me a neighbor, so they were also reconciling on a daily basis. Plus why writing a note to someone who is right there, behind a door? Suicide notes are generally addressed to someone who is not there and found in cases of planned suicides. Everything in this case suggests this was not planned (whether it was a suicide or a homicide). I have never bought it not as a suicide note because it’s not one.
We have to do more. There will never be a conviction. Too much time has passed. People forget. People change their stories. But we can make Jennifer Chiba's life miserable. Or at least change the narrative. I can't let this go.
Yeah. Anything you can get is good. Everyone can contribute!
@@alycamus I'm about finished with your book. And I just can't let this go. I don't know what else there is to do. But I want to do something. I know for sure I'm sending the DA of LA your book! Maybe I'll try to reach out to Chiba. Part of me feels at this point all anyone can do is get an interview with her. Maybe get her mad and hit her hard with the tough questions. I don't know.
@@BatSTUD thank you! The current DA has a reputation to be soft on crimes so I am not sure he will resuscitate a dormant investigation but we never know. New evidence may come from the public and we need to keep looking. An interview would certainly be interesting, but she needs to gain something to be interested, do you work for a major publication? Last time she accepted to be interviewed it was for Spin or for Schultz’s bio!
@@alycamus I don't work for any publication. I'm honestly just a concerned citizen. I remember hearing about his "suicide" in 2003 and just accepting the story. Even feeling sorry for the girlfriend who I didn't know anything about at the time.
I remember even watching a comedian talk about the "balls" that Elliott Smith had, striking his chest not once but twice with a sharp KITCHEN knife. Not even a combat knife.
And it just stayed with me. Something about it all bothered me. I always held onto it. But I also let it go.
A few weeks ago, I was in the shared office my girlfriend and I use, plotting out a road trip mix tape (if you will, haha), and I was playing some Heatmiser music and she was intrigued. So I went into the whole story (especially because she's a huge Jimmy Eat World fan and there's a Heatmiser reference in "Kill" that she didn't know about), and I thought to myself, what's new on the investigation and the subject.
And that led me to you and your book.
Now I know why I held onto it for so many years. Because something was ALWAYS rotten in Denmark. In my soul, I always knew it was murder, but I was younger and naïve and trusted the institutions. I come from a family of cops so I just kind of went with it. And I realize now, I was conned by the suicidal, sad junkie narrative that became so mainstream so quickly.
I've finished your book now and it was so well done, Alyson. Thank you for your work.
But I feel like there has to be more we can do. I know we're not going to get a conviction. We're probably never going to get an admission. But maybe we could make Chiba's life miserable? Maybe we could let the whole world know who she really is?
I don't know how we do that. And I'm just talking out loud. But maybe there's a way.
also, another point, chiba says elliott killed himself, well she pulled the knife out, if that's even really the all (reference from your other video with the jchiba clip from the gus vant sant film on your account).
also reading your website justiceforelliottsmithcom.wordpress.com/jennifer-chiba/who-is-jennifer-chiba/#:~:text=Chiba%20was%20Elliott%20Smith's%20girlfriend,kitchen%20knife%20in%20his%20chest.
Chiba was Elliott Smith’s girlfriend when he died in 2003. On October 21st, 2003, the couple was arguing, she said she locked herself in the bathroom for 5-10 minutes, heard a scream, opened the bathroom door and found Elliott standing with his back to her. When he turned around, she saw the kitchen knife in his chest.
(what kind of scream to come out of the bathroom after arguing)
(He turned around)
She told police that she pulled the knife out of his chest and saw “two cuts” before he walked away and collapsed.
She called 911 at 12:18 p.m. and performed CPR and first aid with a dispatcher’s help until paramedics arrived. Elliott died at County-USC Medical Center 78 minutes later. When police officers questioned her at the kitchen table, she pointed out a Post-it note (the alleged suicide note).
she mentioned a scream, a noise, a thud... it varies. They were arguing way before noon
Did they compare "the suicide note" to his handwriting during that time of his death? Is there an apostrophe on the actual "note"
The police cannot comment on the 'suicide note' because the case is open. We don't know what they did with it. The family didn't even see it
@@alycamus the family, the victim's own family... has not seen the note. i am flabbergasted at learning this too. really? they shoudl be allowed since that is their son's supposed own hand writing if it is
@@coolkitty1356 this is what I was told by someone. And this from a family member: 'We tried to get information from the police through the Freedom of Information Act, even through our attorney, and were unsuccessful.'
@@alycamus is this straight from the family or are you quoting what the family said to the someone else, according to that someone else. i dont want to mess with the family's testimony or witness, but they as a family, are witnesses to their son's own handwriting so pretty sure technically, they would have that right, since the victim is their son. not messing with family testimony.
@@alycamus lastly i of course have to leave this comment here then, if no one has seen that post it note, but the artist made a copy of kurt cobains, how can he make a copy of this note? if no one has seen it, including the artist, isnt that contradictory. but also, now that i mention, maybe the point. the whole post it note the artist replicated according here when you say no one has seen is a lie then too and is therefore misleading.
its right to say that all your reflections on state of mind, etc. are just speculations, hasn't any factual value, it's just what u would have said in a conversation with a friend. I personally think he was capable of doing so, but not necessary for anger towards his partner, it was not just a momentary thing
Bruno sm.l one of my points is that the two acts, writing an apology and stabbing yourself twice in the chest, are highly contradictory. These are 2 different states of mind and he could not have done it in 5 minutes, the time she said she was in the bathroom. This is not speculation, she said that. Plus I asked a forensic psychologist about it and she agreed. She also said that people who kill themselves in front of a partner is an aggressive act directed at this partner. They were fighting, remember? They were very loud, I talked to their neighbors.
@@alycamus sorry Alyson, but all u saying is bullshit, and dont mean to be AGRESSIVE. Those u are nameing could be tendencies, but isn't contradictory at the end to kill yourself to harm the other? At the end u dont do it, 'couse you know u gonna die. I may have been similar experiences. On the other way, we all know Elliott was not an agressive type at all, "I was bad news for you jusr because/ I never meant to hurt you", remember? Being so senciere in his lyrics, elliott was very ellocuent with what he was sayin cause he putted everything in there. But to be clear, what you present as arguments are not (although u seem m to take them that way) universal things, again, could be tendencies, but its way too naif to say oh that couldn't have happened couse this and that, i dont know how old are u but seems pretty unmatured. I mean the argument, don't know u as a person. Something u dont seem to be taking acount is that he said please forgive me cause he was going to kill himself, not for something he've done before. That seems pretty obvious. Sorry to be so long but..
Bruno sm.l it’s not bullshit when I asked several forensic experts (psychologists and doctors) and they all agreed with me. Who are you? An expert in stabbing?
Bruno sm.l you have no idea about all the forensic literature about the subject. I also spent some time reading it. I know that this is about the suicide note, but sternum injuries do not happen in cases of self stabbing.
@@alycamus do u know what a forensic job is about? Analysing a dead men. They work on cases and like in all cases many thing are said. In psychology, u can take many types of psychology, there is no one that says THIS IS THE TRUE CAUSE I SAY SO COUSE IM AN EXPERT. That just doesing exist. But what it IS true, and i repeat my self to lead de discussion in a smart way, is that what u regard as universal things are simply not. They are tendencies. U simply CAN'T KNOW what was the state of mind of the person in case here, Elliott. Because he was and in a sense is a person, dont forget that. I find it even desrespectful to him being talking all that. U obviously didnt even like his music.
Some interesting points raised here
Ack I can't read that fast
Jennifer Courtney Loved Elliott
Or check this theory out: what if almost everything you said in the video is true about how people usually don’t leave notes, and If they do they’re not short or aren’t laid out like his was, and why would he apologize after just fighting and how could he have had the time to write that and stab himself etc. etc. and you basically got everything right except the outcome? Because like you said they left each other notes all the time on post it’s and it wasn’t dated right? So your right it wasn’t a suicide note it was actually written by smith the previous day and she just hadn’t noticed it yet? Your entire video backs up the theory that HE DID kill himself, didn’t leave a note like you explained most don’t, didn’t apologize in it changing mind states, had plenty of time to just Stab himself, and did so cause he was distressed after a fight? Obviously some of the points you bring up can’t be answered cause they’re just stupid like “he would have cooled down in 5-10 minutes” yea unless he was using that time to kill himself.
It’s not stupid when the police (I talked to several LAPD homicide detectives including J King who is still in charge of the case) and a forensic psychologist have agreed with this. There’s obviously a mountain of other things that make the case suspicious but this video is only on the note. I really don’t see how this video backs up the theory he killed himself. Chiba is the one who told the police this was a suicide note. Don’t you think it was very convenient for her theory?
And for your info, it was not AFTER a fight, I talked to a neighbor who was living next door and he heard the fight then he said there was a long silence following the stabbing. The stabbing occurred during the fight
@@alycamus oh thank you for informing me that you uncovered there wasn’t a fight, I was just confused because you know IN YOUR VIDEO YOU DISCUSS A FIGHT SUPPOSEDLY TAKING PLACE
@@jleezypd1445 what are you talking about? I just said the stabbing occurred during the fight.
@@jleezypd1445 it’s not supposedly. They were very loud, 2 neighbors I talked to heard them screaming
Nobody knows what actually happened but the reasoning in this video shows no understanding of suicide. Not even considering that so many of his songs reveal profound depression. Who cares if a minority of people leave notes? Then he was in the minority. How is 10-15 minutes not long enough to write a short one and stab yourself? Especially if you are considering it a rash and violent act. When people have a history of suicidality, what often stops them is not wanting to hurt people. They often have even planned to write an apologetic note. So it's not a contradiction that he was angry. Regardless, the note wasn't just intended for her, but all his loved ones. He wasn't thinking about not wanting to cast suspicion on her because he didn't think that would happen if he thought it was a clear suicide. He used a post-it note because it was just there. And he would have DATED it? Give me a break.
Your comment shows no understanding of the mechanics of stabbing yourself! This is not any suicide, this is self stabbing with 2 deep wounds including one as deep as 7 inch, in the heart and through the sternum! this is gruesome and it is extremely hard to do such a thing and it was not 10-15 but only 5-10 min! Chiba herself said it. You are missing the entire point, it’s a very short amount of time to accomplish such a prowess because if he stabbed himself in the chest, it was a very impulsive act, whereas writing a note is the opposite of that. Writing such a note was not an impulsive and angry act. This is not my opinion, I talked to several experts including a forensic psychologist who clearly told me that writing an apology note and stabbing yourself in 5-10 min are two acts that required 2 totally opposite states of mind . Plus the note is extremely vague and not addressed to his family at all, it’s addressed to Chiba who was right there. People who write suicide notes do not write a note to a person who stays 5 minute behind a door, it’s ridiculous. On the contrary to what you are saying, if he did it, he clearly wanted to hurt her. I would have been traumatized to see my boyfriend with a knife in his chest.
@@alycamus As I said, nobody knows what actually happened and if the video were solely about how difficult it is to stab oneself, that is something else. I'm talking about the psychology. For the sake of brevity I will leave out the "if he DID do it...." His note was not addressed to Jennifer so it was not just to her. All he said was he was sorry, so it's not like he sat down and took time to compose it, it took 5 seconds. And as I said, if he was a historically suicidal person at all (which is clear), he had already planned to write a note if he decided to actually do it and clearly, if we deduce anything from his note, what had stopped him was not wanting to hurt people, the primary reason suicidal people don't do it. Of course he knew it would traumatize her, but he made the desperate decision of wanting to die over protecting her. Maybe the fight gave him the fuel and strength he needed to go through with it, but it wasn't about her, it was about himself.
And if he didn’t want to cast suspicion on her, he should have been more clear and never do that in front of her: the police thought the case was suspicious enough to let it open for 17 years!
@@blinkinglightbeacon7704 I made other videos about self stabbing, and you cannot reconcile the violence and the anger of such an act with this trite apologetic note. Again your analysis of psychology is flawed here, as I said I talked to forensic psychologists. Plus I am fed up with this Elliott Smith was suicidal... he talked about suicide yes, he wrote about it but this does not mean he was suicidal all his life. I met him several times and talked to him shortly before he died, I also talked to many people who interacted with him shortly before he died, he was doing well. Such a violent and aggressive act is deeply incompatible with his nature.
And it’s false to say nobody knows what happens. Chiba knows and the big problem, if you have paid attention, is that she has changed her story many times....
Omg aside from the smith stuff your knowledge of mental illness and emotions is insanely OFF….sorry rage at someone and yourself and then suicide is more common than you think. And wouldn’t the forgive me be not about the fight 🙄 BUT THE SUICIDE. And plenty of suicide notes are VERY SHORT I’ve read 100s (there’s books about it).
He had severe mental illness issues…I have them too and sorry it’s very plausible in rage and all else he did this….we will never know. But to act like somehow the note is Just o so irrational and blah blah just NOT TRUE. You have a very immature grasp of emotions and how they interact ESPECIALLY someone with deep seated mental issues.
I am sorry but I talked with a forensic psychologist who had a long experience so I don’t think this is off. She told me that rage at someone (committing suicide in front of someone) and expressing forgiveness (like this note shows) are two opposite feelings and Elliott couldn’t have felt both of them in 5 minutes (the time that Chiba supposedly locked herself in the bathroom). As for the “severely mentally ill” you are either diagnosing someone you have never met or projecting a lot or repeating Chiba’s words. I am currently talking with one of Elliott’s childhood friends and, he tells me that, yes, Elliott suffered from depression, but all other diagnostics are a complete exaggeration