"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire seven shots or only six'? Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track myself. But being that this is a 9mm Cartridge Counter Luger, luck don't come into it, punk!"
correction: he fired 8 shots, but there was still one in the chamber! (reference to 8 round mag but can have 9 rounds since it would then be 1 in the chamber plus the full mag)
This has the benefit of having the German tax AND rare trials gun tax applied to it, the 75-150k estimate doesn't sound to far off. Wouldn't be surprised to see it go for more.
Now that is a really interesting ForgottenWeapon with some really cool ForgottenHistory! 1 of 50 of the very first weapons to be chambered in the then new 9x19 Luger and it's a US Army Trials Luger. So completely unexpected. Thanks Ian! Looks like it will be a very expensive addition to someone else's collection. Not mine, unfortunately. But I do want it...
let just say its a "polite" way of telling NO. requesting bunch of requirement that may or may not usefull so it became harder to complete the task rather than saying "no" in the face
Because after a few years of testing they changed their mind about it. Bear in mind this is basically their first experience with a concealed box magazine in a handgun, after half a century of using revolvers.
I believe this is around very early 1900s and the US is more of a definitive revolver country at that time and very unfamiliar with autoloading pistols. You can look at another of Ian's / Forgotten Weapon's video of the prototype White-Merrill .45 test pistol that has a clear window to look at how many cartridges are in the magazine. You can see features that would be considered familiar to revolver users, yet weird to us autoloading users today. The idea of the clear window to the magazine that is said in the White-Merrill pistol manual is that it's easy to see if it's loaded or not since with revolvers, checking the ammo is easy since it's opening the cylinder to the side (whilst most autoloaders you couldn't do as easily).
From what I know about the .45 ACP Lugers, two were supplied for testing. Apparently one was absolutely beat and shot to hell. By the end of the testing, the condition was horrendous. The other one was absolutely pristine. I recall that back during the early to mid 1990s, the pristine one made it into the hands of a private collector. That's as much as I know. It was featured in an article in either Handguns, or Guns & Ammo magazine.
@@grungar3x7 The Hi-Power is awesome, but it came about a couple of decades later, and just prior to WWII. I doubt the U.S. would switch guns with all that was going on, and the U.S. at the time was pretty much broke like the rest of the world, in the years before the war.
I misread the title and thought it was a "Counter Luger" which led me to believe that someone made a counter-part to the Luger. Which in retrospect would be the M1911, but I digress.
5 років тому+7
Nah, it's actually a "counter luger" - to be kept and speed-drawn from under the counter in a bar.
Jeez, I wish the armories still sold off test articles. "Hey bob, you want this very rare and specific type of handgun" "well, it is tuesday, so sure!"
Fun fact on the Thompson-Lagarde tests is that they were so biased towards adopting a .45 that they had to rig up the swinging cadaver portion of the test to compare the "energy" of the cartridges after the .30 Luger handily beat out all the larger calibers in the tests where they shot 1500 pound animals. For example the .30 Luger killed a bull with one shot in 15 seconds, where the terrifyingly deadly .45 Manstopper (yes, that's the actual name) gun ran out of ammo and they had to beat the bull to death with a big hammer.
They did determine that shot placement was the most important factor, hence why they noted the .30 Luger that hit a vital zone beat the .45 that didn’t. But the .45 is still better when accounting for similar shot placement simply because it does make for bigger wounds.
Given bullet construction at the time the requirement for .45 caliber makes sense. With round nose ammo, bigger is better. I would love to have a Luger. Interesting firearm.
Interesting that Luger started a two bullet cartridge then years later US trialed rifles and cartridges with multiple shots to increase odds of soldiers hitting their targets with less demand for precision and accuracy. Luger seemed to be way ahead of his time.
That "follower-indicator-rounds-left-window" reminds me "ammo left" indicators found in Luftwaffe fighter aircraft of World War II, as shown in the "IL2 Sturmovik" combat flight simulator game. (Or the "rounds left" indicators found on Bren Gun magazines and the like.)
I'm pretty sure I saw one of these at a gun show when I was a kid. Of course, not being your average kid, I did actually recognize what it was, though it could possibly have been a reproduction/fake. Either way, it was still pretty cool to see one in person and was really the first thing I got to cross off my list of 'cool rare guns I'd like to see in person'. Actually crossed another one off that list just recently, the 1899 Philippine Constabulary Krag short rifle.
As long as you carefully remove the grip panel and have a new one made (or make one yourself, same goes for the magazine) then I see no problem. It would a shame if you use original Luger Parts. It would horrible if you used all matching parts from an original, historically significant or rare Luger.
You should do a test of whether the FN FAL carry handle could actually deflect brass into the shooters eye or whether it was just kind of a myth (the reason given for the Rhodesians chopping off the carrying handles)
You say the plastic cover of the counter slot is celluloid. IIRC, at that time, celluloid was cellulose nitrate, which is well known for catching fire rather enthusiastically. That’s why they later moved over to cellulose acetate for uses such as photographic and movie film. Is there not a problem with having a component of a firearm made of a highly flammable material?
Ian, can I just say - You are awesome! Thank you for all these informative videos! FYI - Have you been to the Scottsdale gun club? If not I'll see you in January ;-)
Absolutely fascinating historical vignette. Well done, Ian! Yet another example from the mountainous, and growing, pile of evidence that the people in charge of military procurement (and government procurement in general) should NOT BE.
Remember that we're talking single-stack 9mm vs single-stack .45acp back in the day. The 9mm didn't really become advantageous until someone figured out that you could design a pistol with much higher capacity in 9 without making it over heavy and bulky.
9mm is also older so it had more time to establish itself, especially since the US wasn’t the world superpower taken seriously by everyone back in the day and so their military choices wouldn’t have much influence (though it did have influence in other countries in the Americas, hence why a lot of South American countries adopted .45ACP). Plus, the US originally went with a .38 caliber as well and only swapped to .45 due to their experienced in the Philippines and the Moro warriors. So 9mm may be sufficient for poorly motivated European conscripts, but against fanatical warriors hopped up on drugs and binding their bodies to reduce bleeding, you probably want something larger.
Imagine if the US had adopted the Luger though. Considering how long the M1911 has stuck around not even fully being phased out to this day despite being so old we could have seen more longevity for Lugers and Luger based designs
Funny story about the 1912 John Browning originally chambered it in 9mm and absolutely hated the 45 acp but it was the military that demanded the larger caliber and that was based on the mentality they had from the era of black powder and they came up with dozens of excuses to adopt and keep the 45 acp, over a century later and not only do we have the numbers that show that the 45 acp is a garbage round and none of the excuses made for it are true but we are still fighting against people that cannot come to terms with the fact that 45 acp is inferior to nearly every other round in existence outside of black powder ones (and yes I know there are black powder rounds that would decimate the 45 acp) with the only other contenter for that title being the 45 gap whose sole reason for existing is to try and convince the 45 acp fanatics to buy a Glock instead of a 1911.
.45ACP is mathematically superior to 9mm rounds taken as a whole. It has a 50% to 60% larger wound channel than 9mm, meaning 2 .45s does equal or more damage than 3 9mms assuming similar shot placement, meaning a 13+1 .45 is mathematically superior to a 17+1 9mm since 14/2=7 while 18/3=6. Also, while I can fire 3 9mms faster than 3 .45s, I can fire 2 .45s faster than 3 9mms. 9mm is merely adequate performance now due to modern strides in bullet technology while being cheaper and more available due to being the NATO standard. And adequate performance at a cheaper price trumps better performance at a more expensive price.
The military also is slow to adopt smaller caliber rifles, because people die if you get it wrong. It requires a lot of clear evidence to go away from something that works. After WW2, US was hard over on .30 caliber for 20 years.
They changed their minds entirely for NATO standardization. Any justification based on performance is merely bullshitting to hide that fact. And ultimately, logistics and cost are more important in the long term than raw performance anyways, so the switch is justified. Doesn’t mean 9mm is now “jUsT aS gUD!!11!” as .45ACP, because it’s not. Mathematically so.
That celluloid makes me nervous. Clear celluloid always ends up outgassing in the end and corroding anything it is near. No warning either. Anyone into old knives or straight razors has seen this phenomenon.
Interesting question- with the US having a relatively small military and still a RIsing power at the time, why was DWM so willing to make so many modifications to his existing design? Is it common or was it just trying to garner sales for his pistol before the Sale of the Luger to major powers such as the German navy and army ?
The US weren't the only ones who wanted a larger caliber luger, and the thought was that there were many other countries that would want them if they existed. Making changes to the grip panel wasn't a big change and didn't really require any development on DWM's part.
I wish I could find stuff like this on cable. Maybe I haven't watched cable in a while but still.. Ian could have a whole TV show. So could Skallagrim. And pops and his son from Hickock 45. Demo ranch. Taofleodermouse or whatever that is. And that shadiversity guy. Backyard scientist would be cool too. Oh and trey the explainer. And alot of other dudes on the tube. Maybe youtube could have tv channels, like discovery and history, mtv etc.. Oh well At least they can make money in the mean time. maybe one day. Til then I gotta stream on the ol xbox. Anyhow, As always, good show, sir.
The Luger was the first truly successful auto loading pistol. At the time of its inception, the 'double stack' mag simply didn't exist. I think it wasn't till the mid 1930s that the first military handgun featuring a double stack mag entered service (Browning Hi-Power). Technically, I suspect there's no reason why a double stack mag couldn't be fitted to a Luger. However, it would have required a complex redesign process and consequent retooling; a very expensive undertaking to make. It may also have led to the cancellation of existing contracts if it became known that an updated version was soon to be available. Also it should be remembered that by the 1930s, the German military was already looking around for a cheaper, easier to produce alternative to the Luger, so the writing was already on the wall, so to speak.
It actually took a while for double stack pistols to become standard. Yeah, the Hi-Power existed by 1935, but even the Walter P38 that came after was single stack. Even the HK P7 pistols started out single stack. The modern wave of double stack “wonder nines” only really took off in the mid 70’s to early 80’s. I actually do legitimately wonder why. The Hi-Power showed double stack magazines were both possible and commercially/militarily viable, yet everyone stuck with single stacks for a long time. Funny enough, the 1911 would receive double stack upgrades with the Para Ordnance frame kit in 1988 and the CMC Modular Frame kit that eventually became the modern 2011 in 1990, so the 1911 caught up with the wave of double stack pistols pretty quickly. Makes me wonder if a double stack Luger would be viable as well, especially given the 1911 double stack frames were deliberately designed to take as many standard 1911 parts as possible. They were originally sold to existing 1911 owners to convert to double stack.
Just reading the details in the description. Does this mean that the US govt brought about the 9 mm round by asking Luger to supersize the 7.65 mm round they fielded at first with the Luger pistol, the 08? It says Luger necked up the 7.65 mm round up to 9 mm for the US, if I read that correctly.
No, what happened is that the case head size (the whole thing that establishes the size of the receiver and most of the gun was set wit the 7.65 Luger. When the British, and others asked for a slightly larger caliber bullet, say equivalent to the .38 caliber (really .356-358 in), the closest that DWM could develop was a 9 mm or .355 in sized barrel. IT ws a lot more complicated than that, but basically the developers of the 9mm round took the 7.65 cartrige "blew it out' with a slight taper (to aid in extraction) and that's why the 9mm Luger is derivative from the 7.65.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire seven shots or only six'? Well to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, i kind of lost track myself. But being that this is a 9mm Cartridge Counter Luger, luck don't come into it, punk!"
correction: he fired 8 shots, but there was still one in the chamber! (reference to 8 round mag but can have 9 rounds since it would then be 1 in the chamber plus the full mag)
Literally couldn't name you a more elegant pistol than the Luger or firearm in general!
Gorgeous looking gun! Especially for being over 100 years old
“Not perfect”. Okay, it’s practically perfect in every way.
The Mary Poppins of Lugers?
Special US trials Luger in top condition: Let me guess, somebody is going to pay A LOT for this.
Estimated price is $75,000 to $150,000
Ah. The choice between a house and a unique gun
This has the benefit of having the German tax AND rare trials gun tax applied to it, the 75-150k estimate doesn't sound to far off. Wouldn't be surprised to see it go for more.
This one looks really expensive.
Indeed; RIA Estimated Price: $75,000.00 - $150,000.00
Start a gofundme
Well you treat yourself get two
I kind of like the yellow colour. Kind of like a go faster stripe!
You still have two kidneys right?
I always love seeing the straw finished small parts on these older guns. Such a beautiful contrast of finishes
What does straw finished mean my friend?
I love how you add casual comedy into these. It’s makes it even better to watch.
Fun fact: the Thompson in the Thompson-LaGarde tests was our old friend John Taliaferro Thompson, later of Thompson submachine gun fame.
The US specifying a caliber and not adopting it, name a more iconic duo
Honestly not surprising, was a time where the bigger is better theory was still going strong.
The US requesting a rifle design and rejecting it again
Britain developing an innovative weapon/vehicle/technology and cancelling it.
The machining and blueing on that piece is exquisite
Now that is a really interesting ForgottenWeapon with some really cool ForgottenHistory! 1 of 50 of the very first weapons to be chambered in the then new 9x19 Luger and it's a US Army Trials Luger. So completely unexpected. Thanks Ian! Looks like it will be a very expensive addition to someone else's collection. Not mine, unfortunately. But I do want it...
Thanks Ian for all your informative videos that inspire us all to want more out of firearms and to learn everything possible.
If the round counter was so important for the military, why it wasn't implemented into 1911 design?
Because someone in the military don't want foreign guns in their army! 😉
let just say its a "polite" way of telling NO.
requesting bunch of requirement that may or may not usefull so it became harder to complete the task rather than saying "no" in the face
Because they could only count to ten
Because after a few years of testing they changed their mind about it. Bear in mind this is basically their first experience with a concealed box magazine in a handgun, after half a century of using revolvers.
I believe this is around very early 1900s and the US is more of a definitive revolver country at that time and very unfamiliar with autoloading pistols. You can look at another of Ian's / Forgotten Weapon's video of the prototype White-Merrill .45 test pistol that has a clear window to look at how many cartridges are in the magazine.
You can see features that would be considered familiar to revolver users, yet weird to us autoloading users today. The idea of the clear window to the magazine that is said in the White-Merrill pistol manual is that it's easy to see if it's loaded or not since with revolvers, checking the ammo is easy since it's opening the cylinder to the side (whilst most autoloaders you couldn't do as easily).
This was actually a REALLY cool idea that I'm surprised didnt get adapted by other firearms manufacturer's at the time.
More things to break and higher cost, particularly the later, is probably why.
Counting to 7 nowadays is pretty difficult for some just leaving public schools and colleges..
Only thing worth getting up at 7am on a sunday for.
So so so true
The sunrise?
This is definitely also worth watching, the more you know: ua-cam.com/video/3lfwkTsJGYA/v-deo.html
Or staying up at 11pm Sunday night...here in Queensland Australia
@@xgford94 Yep, me too haha
From what I know about the .45 ACP Lugers, two were supplied for testing. Apparently one was absolutely beat and shot to hell. By the end of the testing, the condition was horrendous. The other one was absolutely pristine. I recall that back during the early to mid 1990s, the pristine one made it into the hands of a private collector. That's as much as I know. It was featured in an article in either Handguns, or Guns & Ammo magazine.
Wasn't that the one that was labeled the "Million Dollar Luger?"
@@charlesadams1721
Might have been. been a long time since I saw that article.
And as the article was back in the 80's, a million dollars back then is a LOT more money now......
Ya, and IIRC Gordon Gecko owns that very gun in the movie Wall Street.
I never would have guessed the origin of the 9mm round. I was certain it would have involved the terms "Prussia" or "Imperial Armory"
Thanks Ian.
Imagine an alternate history where the US adopted the Luger and kept it as their primary service pistol all the way into the 1980s
The only thing is, even the countries that adopted it didn't keep it that long. The Browning system was just better for mass production.
@@oldesertguy9616
True, so we would've gone over to the high-power, then?
Well yeah, but just because some other gun is better doesn’t mean the US would actually switch to it, at least for several years
Tag @alternatehistoryhub
@@grungar3x7 The Hi-Power is awesome, but it came about a couple of decades later, and just prior to WWII. I doubt the U.S. would switch guns with all that was going on, and the U.S. at the time was pretty much broke like the rest of the world, in the years before the war.
Clever idea. What a great looking weapon the Luger!
Thanks Ian, a wealth of knowledge in this short video.
Thank you again for finding another unique and interesting piece of firearms history.
I misread the title and thought it was a "Counter Luger" which led me to believe that someone made a counter-part to the Luger.
Which in retrospect would be the M1911, but I digress.
Nah, it's actually a "counter luger" - to be kept and speed-drawn from under the counter in a bar.
I did until now...
Cool thanks for sharing love Lugers
Ah, the ASP's grandaddy.
Damn your right.
Very very cool. Thanks for sharing Ian
I remember seeing this in the auction magazine
Jeez, I wish the armories still sold off test articles. "Hey bob, you want this very rare and specific type of handgun" "well, it is tuesday, so sure!"
Wish it was mine, i have a bring back one in the 765 cal with holster two mags. I keep her wrapped in a silicone shammy
Fun fact on the Thompson-Lagarde tests is that they were so biased towards adopting a .45 that they had to rig up the swinging cadaver portion of the test to compare the "energy" of the cartridges after the .30 Luger handily beat out all the larger calibers in the tests where they shot 1500 pound animals. For example the .30 Luger killed a bull with one shot in 15 seconds, where the terrifyingly deadly .45 Manstopper (yes, that's the actual name) gun ran out of ammo and they had to beat the bull to death with a big hammer.
They did determine that shot placement was the most important factor, hence why they noted the .30 Luger that hit a vital zone beat the .45 that didn’t.
But the .45 is still better when accounting for similar shot placement simply because it does make for bigger wounds.
Woah a us tested Luger now that's something special
I like those early pattern Lugers and with that rounds indicator look really pimp to me, and the condition it's excellent IMO.
maybe it’s just the way it looks on a screen, but I actually like the yellow accent on the grip!
Me too
Given bullet construction at the time the requirement for .45 caliber makes sense. With round nose ammo, bigger is better. I would love to have a Luger. Interesting firearm.
I have the Stoeger reproduction American Eagle Luger I bought many years ago. The crest does not have the scroll work or the circle of stars.
Just waiting for him to get his hands on a “Night Luger”
02:39 meh...... 😄
Gorgeous gun. I always like that grip angle and the rounded triggerguard.
That round counter looks epic🤘🏻
Interesting that Luger started a two bullet cartridge then years later US trialed rifles and cartridges with multiple shots to increase odds of soldiers hitting their targets with less demand for precision and accuracy. Luger seemed to be way ahead of his time.
Of course we still have Thompson-LaGarde style firearm tests, they are called Demolition Ranch UA-cam videos
That "follower-indicator-rounds-left-window" reminds me "ammo left" indicators found in Luftwaffe fighter aircraft of World War II, as shown in the "IL2 Sturmovik" combat flight simulator game. (Or the "rounds left" indicators found on Bren Gun magazines and the like.)
You have the coolest job ever
Sad this was not produced. I’d love one. Especially the duplex!
Super neat'o. Thanks Ian!
That is a beautiful gun.
Simple effective solution. Strange it hasn't been used by other gun makers since.
A beautiful weapon.
I'm pretty sure I saw one of these at a gun show when I was a kid. Of course, not being your average kid, I did actually recognize what it was, though it could possibly have been a reproduction/fake. Either way, it was still pretty cool to see one in person and was really the first thing I got to cross off my list of 'cool rare guns I'd like to see in person'. Actually crossed another one off that list just recently, the 1899 Philippine Constabulary Krag short rifle.
Am I terrible for being willing to do this modification to any hypothetical Luger I got my hands on? It's just so cool!
I'd support it
J.Yossarian Snag some reproduction grips and mags; no harm, no foul. I think it’d be pretty neat as well
As long as you carefully remove the grip panel and have a new one made (or make one yourself, same goes for the magazine) then I see no problem.
It would a shame if you use original Luger Parts. It would horrible if you used all matching parts from an original, historically significant or rare Luger.
Similar to the Strasborg tests done in France in the early 90's.
"You guys put your eagle thingy on all your guns, right?"
"Riiiiight..."
Not even a Luger man, but damn that is nice.
Now this is one rare interesting piece.
Celluloid is extremely flammable. Sogood job there, Georg
This is one of those "It seemed like a good idea at the time" inventions.
Probably more along the lines of, "we don't really know what we want, so lets try and get everything!"
Very cool! Thanks Ian :)
It is cool!
Luger is the legend!
You should do a test of whether the FN FAL carry handle could actually deflect brass into the shooters eye or whether it was just kind of a myth (the reason given for the Rhodesians chopping off the carrying handles)
You say the plastic cover of the counter slot is celluloid. IIRC, at that time, celluloid was cellulose nitrate, which is well known for catching fire rather enthusiastically. That’s why they later moved over to cellulose acetate for uses such as photographic and movie film.
Is there not a problem with having a component of a firearm made of a highly flammable material?
Oh my! How beautiful
Ian, can I just say - You are awesome! Thank you for all these informative videos!
FYI - Have you been to the Scottsdale gun club? If not I'll see you in January ;-)
I wonder why the ammo count window didnt become more popular.
I didn't know 9*19mm is over 100 years old.
I like the look of the "fat barrel."
@ Haha, nice!
Wow, that's a beautiful gun.
Still one of my favorite looking handguns ever made. The Luger was such a sexy little number.
Want that, need that.
Absolutely fascinating historical vignette. Well done, Ian! Yet another example from the mountainous, and growing, pile of evidence that the people in charge of military procurement (and government procurement in general) should NOT BE.
Can you get an example of the .45 Luger that was entered in the US 1907 pistol trails?
Remember that we're talking single-stack 9mm vs single-stack .45acp back in the day. The 9mm didn't really become advantageous until someone figured out that you could design a pistol with much higher capacity in 9 without making it over heavy and bulky.
That's an American thing. Outside the US the 9mm was always much more popular than .45.
@@SeanFication True. But the Brits seemed rather fond of .45 calibers in their revolvers, another place where capacity wan't a major issue.
9mm is also older so it had more time to establish itself, especially since the US wasn’t the world superpower taken seriously by everyone back in the day and so their military choices wouldn’t have much influence (though it did have influence in other countries in the Americas, hence why a lot of South American countries adopted .45ACP).
Plus, the US originally went with a .38 caliber as well and only swapped to .45 due to their experienced in the Philippines and the Moro warriors. So 9mm may be sufficient for poorly motivated European conscripts, but against fanatical warriors hopped up on drugs and binding their bodies to reduce bleeding, you probably want something larger.
Also the celluloid have shrunk.
This thing is going to go for a pretty penny
Imagine if the US had adopted the Luger before the war.
Imagine if the US had adopted the Luger though. Considering how long the M1911 has stuck around not even fully being phased out to this day despite being so old we could have seen more longevity for Lugers and Luger based designs
This one will probably bring a handsome price at auction
Funny story about the 1912 John Browning originally chambered it in 9mm and absolutely hated the 45 acp but it was the military that demanded the larger caliber and that was based on the mentality they had from the era of black powder and they came up with dozens of excuses to adopt and keep the 45 acp, over a century later and not only do we have the numbers that show that the 45 acp is a garbage round and none of the excuses made for it are true but we are still fighting against people that cannot come to terms with the fact that 45 acp is inferior to nearly every other round in existence outside of black powder ones (and yes I know there are black powder rounds that would decimate the 45 acp) with the only other contenter for that title being the 45 gap whose sole reason for existing is to try and convince the 45 acp fanatics to buy a Glock instead of a 1911.
.45ACP is mathematically superior to 9mm rounds taken as a whole. It has a 50% to 60% larger wound channel than 9mm, meaning 2 .45s does equal or more damage than 3 9mms assuming similar shot placement, meaning a 13+1 .45 is mathematically superior to a 17+1 9mm since 14/2=7 while 18/3=6. Also, while I can fire 3 9mms faster than 3 .45s, I can fire 2 .45s faster than 3 9mms.
9mm is merely adequate performance now due to modern strides in bullet technology while being cheaper and more available due to being the NATO standard. And adequate performance at a cheaper price trumps better performance at a more expensive price.
I WANT A LUGER SO BAD
US Army in 1900s: *We wont accept less than .45 ACP*
Also US Army in 1985: *Well we gonna adopt a wondernine*
The military also is slow to adopt smaller caliber rifles, because people die if you get it wrong. It requires a lot of clear evidence to go away from something that works. After WW2, US was hard over on .30 caliber for 20 years.
19 years of experience with military M9s has taught me that "wonder" shouldn't be in any part of its description.
Wow, they changed their mind a mere 85 years later. How fickle.
They changed their minds entirely for NATO standardization. Any justification based on performance is merely bullshitting to hide that fact.
And ultimately, logistics and cost are more important in the long term than raw performance anyways, so the switch is justified. Doesn’t mean 9mm is now “jUsT aS gUD!!11!” as .45ACP, because it’s not. Mathematically so.
I know there was a golden Beretta 34 at RIA, have you ever covered its history?
The artistry and beauty is something that is severely lacking in modern firearms.
i almost like the yellow more.....
thought it was gold or polished brass/copper at first....
That celluloid makes me nervous. Clear celluloid always ends up outgassing in the end and corroding anything it is near. No warning either. Anyone into old knives or straight razors has seen this phenomenon.
how many of these are known to exist now? i think for a true luger collector they would want this in their collection
Interesting question- with the US having a relatively small military and still a RIsing power at the time, why was DWM so willing to make so many modifications to his existing design? Is it common or was it just trying to garner sales for his pistol before the Sale of the Luger to major powers such as the German navy and army ?
All I can think is sell to the US Army and you have a good way into the civilian market.
The US weren't the only ones who wanted a larger caliber luger, and the thought was that there were many other countries that would want them if they existed. Making changes to the grip panel wasn't a big change and didn't really require any development on DWM's part.
I wish I could find stuff like this on cable. Maybe I haven't watched cable in a while but still..
Ian could have a whole TV show.
So could Skallagrim.
And pops and his son from Hickock 45.
Demo ranch.
Taofleodermouse or whatever that is.
And that shadiversity guy.
Backyard scientist would be cool too.
Oh and trey the explainer.
And alot of other dudes on the tube. Maybe youtube could have tv channels, like discovery and history, mtv etc..
Oh well At least they can make money in the mean time. maybe one day. Til then I gotta stream on the ol xbox.
Anyhow,
As always, good show, sir.
Celluloid close to a firing cartridge. Could be interesting.
Yeah Rock Island Arsenal!
What prevented people from making double stack luger?
The Luger was the first truly successful auto loading pistol. At the time of its inception, the 'double stack' mag simply didn't exist. I think it wasn't till the mid 1930s that the first military handgun featuring a double stack mag entered service (Browning Hi-Power). Technically, I suspect there's no reason why a double stack mag couldn't be fitted to a Luger. However, it would have required a complex redesign process and consequent retooling; a very expensive undertaking to make. It may also have led to the cancellation of existing contracts if it became known that an updated version was soon to be available. Also it should be remembered that by the 1930s, the German military was already looking around for a cheaper, easier to produce alternative to the Luger, so the writing was already on the wall, so to speak.
@@davidaitchison1455 thanks. It would be really cool if someone were to make a reproduction double stack luger.
It actually took a while for double stack pistols to become standard. Yeah, the Hi-Power existed by 1935, but even the Walter P38 that came after was single stack. Even the HK P7 pistols started out single stack. The modern wave of double stack “wonder nines” only really took off in the mid 70’s to early 80’s.
I actually do legitimately wonder why. The Hi-Power showed double stack magazines were both possible and commercially/militarily viable, yet everyone stuck with single stacks for a long time. Funny enough, the 1911 would receive double stack upgrades with the Para Ordnance frame kit in 1988 and the CMC Modular Frame kit that eventually became the modern 2011 in 1990, so the 1911 caught up with the wave of double stack pistols pretty quickly. Makes me wonder if a double stack Luger would be viable as well, especially given the 1911 double stack frames were deliberately designed to take as many standard 1911 parts as possible. They were originally sold to existing 1911 owners to convert to double stack.
That duplex 9mm would have been interesting as a SMG loading
Let's try it in that dual barrel Italian SMG from last week!
... This is a really nice gun.
When are you going to upload next video on GunLabDotNet channel?
For browning guns counting cartridges was not an issue, I guess...
Ian do you have any cool things lined up for the days leading up to Christmas like last year?
I think I've got some pretty cool stuff planned out for the next couple months... :)
@@ForgottenWeapons cool! looking forward to it!
Nice, simple holster. If my P38 is any indication, the Germans can even over-engineer a holster.
Is that a six pointed star in the USA crest? If so, I want the story behind that.
Looks like it's 13 little stars arranged in a star pattern, presumably for the 13 original states.
Ah, so many Lugers, so little time (and money)...
They made a .45 variant?! That would be an interesting gun to shoot but I guess they are rarer than unicorn excrement....
There have some Luger reproductions in .45 acp over the years. Ian has a video on one.
6:10, Sesame Street Skit?
Just reading the details in the description. Does this mean that the US govt brought about the 9 mm round by asking Luger to supersize the 7.65 mm round they fielded at first with the Luger pistol, the 08? It says Luger necked up the 7.65 mm round up to 9 mm for the US, if I read that correctly.
and the 1902 British Small Arms Committee.
Exactly
Pretty much.
No, what happened is that the case head size (the whole thing that establishes the size of the receiver and most of the gun was set wit the 7.65 Luger. When the British, and others asked for a slightly larger caliber bullet, say equivalent to the .38 caliber (really .356-358 in), the closest that DWM could develop was a 9 mm or .355 in sized barrel. IT ws a lot more complicated than that, but basically the developers of the 9mm round took the 7.65 cartrige "blew it out' with a slight taper (to aid in extraction) and that's why the 9mm Luger is derivative from the 7.65.
@@charlesadams1721 very interesting, thank you all for the replies