Ancient Astronomy with Hannah Liu

What does the study of archeology, the study of the human past, offer to the astronomers of today? To find out, Dr. Charles Liu and co-host Allen Liu welcome archaeology expert Hannah Liu, MEd, to connect the past, the present, and the future of astronomy in an episode Allen has described as, “A Fistful of Lius.”
As always, though, we start off with the day’s joyfully cool cosmic thing, a recent scientific paper just published by archaeologist Federico Bernardini and astronomer Paolo Molaro which suggests that a 3,000-year-old stone tablet discovered near Trieste, Italy may be the oldest European star chart yet discovered.
Hannah, who is an expert in archaeology, takes us back to the hilltop area where the tablet was found, which had been occupied since the Iron Age, and was more than likely a farming area. She explains how early civilizations used the stars to keep track of planting and threshing seasons, which could support the theory that the tablet has an astronomical purpose.
Then, it’s time for our first question. Hannah teaches History at the Pingree School in South Hamilton, Massachusetts, which is where we got the questions we answer on today’s episode. Maeve asks, “Are we the only living things on earth who have a sense of how small we are in the universe?”
The Lius answer includes ancient Greeks, sea turtles who use stars for directions and moths that fly towards light thinking it’s the moon, and the beginnings of astronomy and astrology! Hannah explains how constellations and asterisms are cross-cultural, even though they have different names. In particular, The Pleiades is an example of star cluster relevant to cultures around the world.
Coming back to that 3000-year-old star chart, Hannah breaks down the 29 markings on the tablet, and how 28 of them are connectable to constellations that we know like Scorpius, Cassiopeia The Pleiades, and Orion. However, the 29th marking, near Orion’s Belt, still remains a mystery, and until we can pin it down, we can’t definitively claim it’s really a star chart.
Our next question comes from Abby, who asks, “Where do you think human involvement in space exploration is going?” Allen runs down the planned manned missions beyond low Earth orbit, where we haven’t gone since our last trip to the moon in 1972, along with the reasons we haven’t. We also hear how the stars were very important to ancient explorers like the Greeks and the Phoenicians, as well as the ancient Polynesian Wayfinders, who used the stars as their guides in their ongoing excursions around the world.
After brief sojourns into Star Trek and The Odyssey, we dive into ancient alien visitors, gods, and supernatural forces. Hannah points out the inherent Western biases in theories that “ancient aliens” were responsible for building the Pyramids and other impressive accomplishments that just happened to have been created in non-Western cultures of the past.
Charles explains that in the past, some people who used science and astronomy, like midwives and scientists, were accused of witchcraft and other equally disparaging and unfounded claims. This could create a divide between science and religion, but luckily, not an unbridgeable one - you’ll hear about Gerbert of Aurillac, a scientist who became Pope Sylvester II and brought the Abacus back to Europe, and how the Catholic Church itself established the Vatican Observatory which has made numerous discoveries over the years.
Finally, we get into the history and anthropology of museums, a subject about which Hannah will be teaching a course in the upcoming semester. What is the role of a museum? Is it science, education, or something else? Is it a place where we hold our treasures, or, increasingly, one where we recognize we hold other people’s treasures, some of which were once plundered and taken from those people against their desires? And yes, we do bring up situations like the Elgin Marbles and the British Museum’s refusal to return those artifacts to Greece... especially in light of the new U.S. law regarding repatriation of artifacts.
We hope you enjoy this episode of The LIUniverse, and, if you do, please support us on Patreon.
Credits for Images Used in this Episode:
- 3,000-year-old stone tablet from Italy - Bernardini et al., CC BY-SA 4.0
- Trieste in Italy - F l a n k e r, Yiyi, and Allen Liu, Public Domain
- Sirius (bottom) in the night sky - Akira Fujii, Public Domain
- A thresher (Thanks Jon.) - SteveStrummer, Public Domain
- NASA’s SLS Rocket - NASA/Joel Kowsky, Public Domain
- SpaceX’s Starship rocket under construction - NASA, Public Domain
- Austronesian societies range - Obsidian Soul, CC BY 4.0
- Gerbert of Aurillac, Pope Sylvester II - Meister der Reichenauer Schule, Public Domain
- Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope in Arizona - Andromeda321, Public Domain
- Parthenon Marbles at the British Museum - Ejectgoose, Public Domain
- Map of Latin-descended languages in Europe - Servitje, Public Domain

[@stonerainproductions]

Chuck, you have a beautiful family! I love how fun this episode was and id love to see more family colabs.

[@TheLIUniverse]

Thank you so much - we just might! Really glad you enjoyed the episode. -Chuck

[@leeFbeatz]

My favourite episode most definitely 🙏🙏🙏 thank you!!!!!

[@BlaTaN]

This was an absolutely wonderful episode. Fascinating subject matter that IMO doesn't get enough limelight. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wisdom. Please consider more episodes with the Fistful of Lius, it was great insight into the marvelous and intriguing LIUniverse! Cheers :)

[@soupbonep]

This was delightful. Seeing the Liu family together is nice. The love you have for one another is palpable and has left me with a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
As for the subject matter, I remember first hearing about one Pleiades myth on Cosmos season two with Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Then I heard about the cosmic hunt myth that has been in so many cultures and has gone through some minor changes, but has the basic storyline. In the one presented on Cosmos, the women were being hunted or chased, in the other Proto-Indo-European myths, it is an elk or similar animal. Or am I getting mixed up? Hannah would know better than me.
Love the show Chuck! I have to finish it tomorrow though and am looking forward to seeing the end.

[@TheLIUniverse]

Thank you so much! We had a great time making this episode, and I'm glad our joy came through. -Chuck

[@antonioCsilveira]

When are we going to have the Liu Matriarch joining the show? That would be so cool

[@sbkarajan]

I also had asked about Kepler's book, Harmonices Mundi, before in this channel.
Nobody realized why it is so strange, so let me explain a little further.
In the Great Minds Series edition, "Epitome of Copernican Astronomy and Harmonies of the World",
currently sold in Amazon at about $15 with orange cover.
Page 186, there is a table with each known planet's Aphelion and Perihelion.
They are accurate to about 1% with modern values.
For example, the measurement taken in the years before 1601 in this book:
Saturn's aphelion is 10.052 AU, perihelion is 8.968 AU.
Modern values, Saturn's aphelion is 10.1238 AU, perihelion is 9.0412 AU
That's 0.7% difference for the former, 0.8% error for the latter.
Those measurements were made by Tycho Brahe, without photo or even telescope.
How was it done?
Of course, I am pretty sure you are not interested, yet you people claim to be doing science, huh?
I hope you guys heard of Johannes Kepler, the pop singer from Canada?
No way any of you heard of Tycho Brahe though, c'mon, be honest.

[@TheLIUniverse]

Tycho Brahe is actually pretty well known in astronomy - there's a major crater on the Moon named after him. He got his measurements so precise by using the largest pre-telescopic observatory in Europe, called Uraniborg. His methods involve timing the cycles of planets in the sky and using trigonometry. If you want to replicate some of Tycho's easier observations at home, you can check out the blog post "How to Estimate the Distance to the Outer Planets Yourself" by Matt Strassler. - Allen

[@sbkarajan]

@@TheLIUniverse A lot of huge problems in your explanation. Every word you have said is wrong.
1. Have you tried to measure the distance from the earth to Mars? Or have you given a thought how it's done? You cannot do it in one location, because it requires the use of Parallax. You will need two people, separated far distant locations looking at Mars at the exact same moment among stars for precise measurement. Without telescope and camera, you will not be able to use Parallax because the difference is so minute.
Mars is hard enough, but Jupiter is even further than Mars. Did you know that? And then Saturn is almost 10 times further than Mars is. Are you going to use parallax without telescope, do it in one location, Uraniborg? Seriously?
And then come up with such ***precise*** measurements of aphelion and perihelion of all 5 known planets?

[@sbkarajan]

@@TheLIUniverse 2. Distance to the SUN is VERY HARD TO MEASURE.
Look it up, Edmond Halley used Venus transit, which occurs every 70-80 years or so.
And then Giovanni Cassini came up with a method to calculate the distance to the SUN using Mars Opposition.
For Cassini, distance to Mars was very approximate, he was in Paris, his friend in South America, error must have been bad.
Oh, and then the distance to the Sun is "approximated" using KEPLER'S 3RD LAW!
Today, they say they use the radar to the Sun to measure the distance, but there is no way the faint radar gets any signal back from the mightily radar active Sun.
There is no good way to measure the distance to the Sun even now.

[@sbkarajan]

@@TheLIUniverse 3. I was asking about how KEPLER or Brahe knew the precise AU values of all the known planet's aphelion and perihelion. But to do the trigonometry as described by Matt Strassler, Mars is at some random point in its elliptical orbit, not necessarily at aphelion and perihelion. I hope you understand this.
In any case, the distance to the Sun and to the planets from earth were both unknown at the time of Kepler. They were imprecisely measured about hundred years later.

[@sbkarajan]

@@TheLIUniverse 4. How about inner planets?
So, back to the original question: How Tycho Brahe find out the aphelion and perihelion of all 5 known planets?
Can you ask some other astronomers about this?

[@Nemos_Odyssey]

The 29th object is a JuMBO! Hahaha.

[@hohum911]

Well, some archeologists CAN pretend to be Indiana Jones. 😉

[@TheLIUniverse]

🤠

[@reygranado1229]

🗿👍🛸

[@sbkarajan]

Can any western technology, modern technology, replicate the Inca walls in Peru?
If you think you can, I have a bridge to sell you.
Same thing for Pyramid.
Even if someone thinks it's technologically possible, it make zero economic sense as a tomb.
So pyramid is also impossible to replicate using modern tech.
Also note that so called western civilization is new, there was no ancient civilization in modern day EU countries.
You guys need more history lessons.

[@Darker_Void_Scientist]

Liu Family? All this time I didn't realize Allen was your son. I thought he just happened to have the same name... I find the Polynesian bit interesting, so I'll do a bit more reading on that later. I stopped because China's account , from 14-16 hundreds, of the people in that whole region annoyed me. It seems like humans haven't learned anything. That's why I plan to leave this Earth for vast space before any of you.

[@Darker_Void_Scientist]

So your daughter is Expert-DEI? I knew something was special about you Liu. No wonder you and your family are far above in critical analysis prowess... Hahahah!! And no, I don't agree with including spirituality except for fictional work like art, movies,games, comics, or mental health(meditation).