Fire Engine Tank [re]Fill (Pump Series - Part 11)
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- Today we’re going to look at something that is often overlooked when we’re doing pump school at the Station - the Tank Fill lever. Now, yes, the lever does exactly what we think it does - refills our tank with water once it’s depleted. But there are a couple specifics that I think are important to discuss when it comes to our workflow on the fire ground and the +/- outcomes of pulling that lever at certain points in the progress of a fire.
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Dallas Fire-Rescue does not endorse or promote [most of] these videos. I am an adjunct instructor that does produce content specifically for the Department on occasion that is posted here as well. However, these videos are for educational purposes only. Always talk with your Officer and crew before implementing anything you see here on The Roll Steady.
I processed thousands of fire apparatus contracts over my career with six different builders. Earlier apparatus almost always had 1" tank fill lines. In the late '90s they started specifying 1-1/2" for the majority. Since the early or mid '90s NFPA1901 has called for 2" plumbing in 1-1/2" discharges but not tank fill lines. That said, you can shut it off at any time.
I do believe in cracking the tank fill line upon opening the tank fill valve but, for a different reason. If, for any reason, there is air in the pump, simple gravity will flood the eye of the impeller with tank head pressure and the fill line will allow the pump to vent the air. By doing this simple operation you will almost instantly get pressure on your discharge gauge. This is when us old timers would spin up the throttle and set the relief valve thingy. Then we could start opening discharges and close the tank fill.
Just subbed. Solid
Awesome explanation on the application of tank fill valve
While I agree 100% with the information being discussed there are two things that should be kept in mind. 1) some apparatus have large tank fill lines and even a small opening in that valve could be detrimental to building pressure in the initial attack line and made even worse when secondary attack lines are open. 2) Rural fire operations depend gpm being delivered to the nozzles and any water spilled onto the ground, subtracts from the shuttle operation and limits available gpm. Before implementing this procedure, know your apparatus and your department operations. Good Stuff Roll Steady!
Absolutely agree with your two points. I try to remind people… I work in a large city and the content here is aimed at the guys here in Dallas and the metroplex. A lot might not translate to your response area and equipment… so judge everything here through your lens and departments mop/sog.
This makes so much sense. I hate having to compensate on the fly for the drop in pressure when we connect the tanker to our engine. Have always used tank fill for cooling and circulation but usually after our lines are pressured.
26 year DE out now 20 years enjoyed class.
so happy to stumble across this channel. great video
Glad to hear it.
Thank you RS! Excellent video!
You’re welcome.
Dope video bruv
That is a MASSIVE tank fill line! Our tank fill is 3/4 inch and mainly a recirculating line, we tank fill in volume through the tank to pump once securing a water supply.
As you pointed out, a recirc valve/ tank fill that large, can be very handy indeed for dumping pressure.
It's extremely important to know your equipment and the +/- of using it. Appreciate the comments and feedback.
Thanks for the video and being a new pump operator I’m going to adopt this method.
If you open tank fill to dump pressure when you have a full tank you’ll just be dumping water on the ground, no?
We’re allowed to set our rig how please in my department, but we’re initially taught to keep the tank to pump open, and tank fill closed until establishing a water supply.
We just gate the attack line while filling, and close when the tank is full, and operate the throttle as needed to maintain correct nozzle pressure. Your thoughts?
Great video btw!
Hi, thank you for passing on your knowledge to the rest of us.
So I have been told multiple times to never fully open the tank-fill secondary to it not being able to handle as much pressure as the remainder of the discharges.
Thanks in advance.
What do you mean by “secondary?”
Good stuff I appreciate the knowledge shared! What year were y'alls Spartan engines? We have the newer Spartans with the pressure governors.
Right now we have anything between 2010-2018 I believe. All of them are set up with a mechanical relief system. We are making the switch to Pierce which have pressure govs
how does this affect volume and pressure if we hooked up to a hydrant
Opening your tank refill will cause significant pressure loss as well as volume loss. The degree to which you crack or fully open determines the degree.
Is it bad to leave the tank to pump open all the time? Some drivers in my dept just have it open all the time as a way to remove one step. Is it bad to do this or not and what disadvantages are their if are any?
“Always open…” As in, they drive throughout the shift with it open?
If it is left open all shift and their only justification is I removes one of ten steps… I’d challenge them to find deeper reasons to make these sorts of decisions on. Pulling that lever takes about 1 second and should be nothing more than muscle memory for guys who perform operational checks at least once a shift.
In terms of leaving it open throughout the duration of an incident once they’ve arrived and put the engine in pump gear… I know guys who sit on both side of the fence. Again, I’m interested in their “why” and seeing how that resonates with my personal experience and logic/understanding of how things function at a working fire. For most guys it revolves around them not wanting their guys on the end of a line to lose water. Some guys take into account how many lines and total GPM they have flowing knowing it could be less than an minute of “buffer” time if they lost their permanent supply. Some guys leave it open because their department has them doing secondary tasks like throwing ladders and setting a fan due to staffing constraints.
Really though, the best thing is to talk with your senior/experienced members and find out why/why not they do certain things within your agency and your specific equipment.
Thanks for the response! To clarify yes tank to pump is open while driving. Not driving. I'll ask my guys who do it but all I was initially told was it just eliminates a step. I'm curious too if this causes wear on the pump itself in anyway or what? Otherwise why have the valve at all? Just leave it on and tank fill as necessary. If you're on a hydrant that supplies enough water it shouldn't make a difference if it's open whether you're in fill or not right? So then why is their a valve at all? Is it bad to b open always vs shut whether driving or not?
I'm probably over thinking it, I've noticed I do this in my career.
@@jcallaghan808 just to make sure we are on the same page… since this video was about the tank refill and your question was about the tank to pump… which are two different things.
Tank to pump sits on the intake side and gravity feeds water to the eye of your pump.
Tank fill sits on the discharge side.
You shouldn’t be able to refill with your tank to pump. If you can, the check valve is broken and needs to be fixed asap - because your losing/wasting pressure as it feeds water back to your tank.
I’ve never met someone who leaves the tank to pump open while driving. Again, this is a very basic, 1 second step that seems a little odd if the only reason is to eliminate a step.
I’m not sure on how it would impact the valve over time. Might be worth calling the manufacturer and getting their take???
Greetings from UK ( Retd.). IHere we hav enational standards & there is only a tank to pump valve ( there is no pump to tank valve) & the manuals of firemanship state is should be kept closed until needed. However, on busy wholetime stations it is common practice to test it at the start of the shift, then leave it open throughout the shift, fires or not. They can drip a little, but they are instantly ready. There is an entirely seperate tank fill & an overflow, which are in no way connected to the pump.
During water relays such tank valves must be closed. I have seen a tank burst due to the overflow being unable to accomodate the 2,000 gpm it eceived, as the driver had noit closed the valve. The water issuing from every locker was a sight to behold.
Sadly, I believe most US fire departments are missing out, by not having 19mm high pressure hosereels. Using these, most house fires are extinguished with one tank containing 1818 litres, or 450gallons. It is very rare to take a jet ( main hose line) into a house fire.
I found the only thing better than beng a fireman, is to become a retired fireman. Keep up the good work !
Do your engines have pressure governors?
We have a split fleet at this time. Our Spartan engines have mechanical relief valves and our new Pierce have pressure governors.
@@TheRollSteady Got you. So this video was for an engine with a mechanical relief valve?
@@Flacochupcabra yes
Man you have a lot of good and ACCURATE information on your channel.
@@Flacochupcabra thanks for the feedback.
If you open recirc/tank fill right away, then it won’t help later to blow off pressure from a supply truck?
Can you give me a bit more context or background to the scenario you are asking your question from? I just want to make sure I answer correctly.
@@TheRollSteady In a scenario where you have engine 1 feeding another engine 2, if engine 1 is sending too much pressure then you can blow off up to 75psi with recirc/tank fill?
But if you start out pumping off your tank water and open your recirc right away (before getting supplied), then engine 1 hooks up a supply line sending too much pressure.. is there another way to relieve this pressure quickly?
Trying to have a better understanding thank you! 😊
@@kaelynhess8049 thanks. Yes, you can utilize the tank refill to blow off pressure if necessary. It would be a rare occurrence to use this tactic as their are better options.
The best option is to use your relief valve or pressure gov properly.
@@TheRollSteady thank you!
Q: is it possible to over-pressure the tank by this fill? I'm working on a '65 Van Pelt and the knuckle of the tank suction leaving the tank is cracked, blown _out_
I’m not familiar with your engine, but every engine in Dallas has a overflow at the top of the engine. This would prevent any sort of over pressurizing of the tank.
@@TheRollSteady Figured there has to be; my top-side filler looks too simple to have a tight seal... And I figure the tank would fail before this big old chunk of cast iron, too. It's a mystery to me... Oh... darn it, must have been someone not draining the system in freezing weather! Arg. Well then I'll just weld it up (for ranch use) given it's only max indicated -30" vac. This channel has been incredibly valuable (tank fill on my multi-stage now at 1/4 open); thanks for producing this content!
@@anthropicandroid4494 Good deal. Glad this is helping you guys out!
@@TheRollSteady Love the series, but, this is incorrect. The overflow at the top is not an assurance you cannot over pressurize. The size of the overflow-more correctly described as the vent- is determinative. It must be able to vent the air(compressible) then the water(non compressible). This is an instance where size does matter. Twenty five years as ship Captain with many years in command of tankers.
Thanks for the feedback. Have you experienced a tank over pressurized?
As I set my engine up in the morning at shift change I always have the tank to pump wide open and tank fill cracked approx 1/4-1/2 open. This allows me to chalk my wheels, pull a ladder, pull a supply line, set lights or even pull a back up line if needed. No not all before I charge a line but I can do any one of these should it be needed before my crew is ready for entry. And I run my pump like this for the duration of the incident. This is how I train and how I have run my engine for 17 years. We are a small department with only 2 first due engins so its a must to be an active driver. Thanks for great content keep it up.
So as you lay in from a hydrant and your tank is full after suppression, you just spill water out because you never close it?