I am so happy to see you taking up this issue Nick. It is so important. It also has a place in the cruising market. Hope to see a viable version for sailboats one day.
During the early 2000's, using kite-sails were proposed to help propel cargo ships. Only need to connect to the kites. No news from it since then. The sails are either deployed by the ship or some kite-sail tug that help tows a vessel.
@@shaider1982 it is not a bussiness yet, they seem to be in early r&d, basically copying the approach that Skysails used in their PoC 10 years ago, with some minor modificatons, not necessarily for the best :)
Your point about their theoretical mast design and the incredible forces they will be subjected to is a good one. I suspect they will have to heavily redesign the mechanism that joins the mast to the deck, and probably simplify it to get it to function in reality.
With many vessels now moving to diesel-electric I’ve always thought that using the wind as an electricity generator rather than a motive force might be easier/better. Wind turbines are already a mature technology, have no preference for wind direction, and can be tied into existing electric drive systems. The question is which system would be more efficient in turning wind into motive force. What do you think?
I would need to do the math to be sure, but I suspect that sails come out more efficient, depending on the use. Sails show small efficiency when traveling upwind, since the sail is angled to push mostly sideways. But upwind travel only encompasses about 1/4 of the possible wind angles. For the remaining wind angles, sails are very efficient. Contrast that to wind turbines. True, those can work at any wind angle. But we lose a lot in the conversion. A typical wind turbine is only 50%-70% efficient at capturing the wind power. (They have a theoretical maximum of 67%.) Then we have efficiency losses to convert that power into electricity (conservative assumption: 95% efficiency). Then we need to convert that electric power back into propeller power with an electric motor. Electric motor are around 92-95% efficient. And the propeller is also only 65% efficient at converting shaft power into forward thrust. So by using wind turbines, only 39% of the wind energy makes it back into forward thrust. Sails have their own losses too, but 39% is a pretty easy number to beat.
Sailing ships have a lot of torsional stress because there's a twisting moment in the frame where the mast is attached. For modern ships to have sufficient torsional strength will likely require an extensive redesign versus what's built today possibly including hull shape changes and diagonal stringers.
Other ships which don't need to be compatible with shore cranes are tankers and passenger ships. The self loading/unloading bulk freighters of the Great Lakes could be another opportunity for wind propulsion. There is at least one competing technology called DynaRig that has been around for decades and has been used/tested on a few large yachts. In addition to crew sizes, I think much of the focus on single masts comes from yacht racing - a single masted sloop rig maximized maneuverability and the ability to sail into the wind, which is important in yacht racing, but not so much for larger ships. As for 200m masts, there are already several large yachts in service or construction with masts approaching 100m, but these are mostly attempts to scale up single masted racing yachts. I suspect that multiple smaller masts would be more optimal for cargo ships.
Great lakes ships aren't self-loaders. They are self-unloaders but they need to be loaded at an ore dock. The self-unloading system works via gravity. There's a belt below the cargo holds that carries the product to the elevator at the stern of the ship. It can not run in reverse.
The reason most sailing yachts have one mast and usually two sails is not about reducing crew size. It is about getting the best windward efficiency. This is mainly necessary due to how sailboat races are conducted. They are very often upwind/downwind in nature. Upwind, the tall, two sail rig is champ. Downwind, it is also champ, due to being able to fly a very large downwind sail. When raid-style racing was introduced, two masted boats started appearing and doing well. This is because raid racing is often across the wind. BTW, the smallest working four masterd schooner is a little more than 6m long and is being built by Sven Yrvind. Its mast are all cantilever and don't extend very far below the deck. Each sail has just a halyard and a sheet line. They will have reefing points as well. But sail area can quickly be reduced by dropping one or more of the four sails. It looks complicated, but it is really quite simple.
AYRO's Oceanwings on Canopee are already sailing, apparently with interesting results (I joke Canopee is the most interesting part of the Ariane 6 rocket program 😂)
The reason my sailboat and most small sailboats have two or three or four sails (Sloop, cutter, ketch) is not simplicity, it's being able to sail close to the wind. Old square riggers can't sail 'into the wind.' These primarily sloop rigged boats , like my 46' boat, can sail 35 degrees 'off the wind' and I do it all the time. This is called Close Hauled and it's also the only way the America's Cup boats sail. Sails on large ships, I think, is already a 'solved engineering problem.' Sails are just wings, we know all about wings. They already know how to do it. The large model in the video is just proof of concept. Yacht A, is a very large private sail yacht, everything about the sails is motor controlled. The sails roll out of the mast (as do mine). They're very efficient. What they are, compared to large container ships running on powerful engines, is slow. A 1000' (300m) container ship can do 25 knots, my boat does 7. What needs to be worked out is what cargos can take 3 - 4 weeks to cross the Pacific and which cargos still need to get across in ten days? I've sailed Asia, across the Pacific and regularly off the California coast. Most large ships were only doing about 14 knots, and the ones I see on AIS in the past couple of years off California are doing 9 knots. Some of this is to lower pollution levels, save on increasingly expensive fuel. If speeds stay low like this, then sails on large ships could become competitive. I always think that when the aliens do visit Earth, all their technology will be far more advanced than ours. But, unless they have oceans and sailing on their planet, they are going to be amazed that we can cross oceans for free with sails. Storms. One of the reasons I became a sailor four years ago is weather prediction and communications have become so good, no one ever needs to sail in a hurricane or typhoon. We regularly avoided the most intense parts of the storms that were near where we sailed.
Drydock with sails. Ship would exit port by tug boat, be picked up by drydock with sails,be delivered to tug boats at new port. Drydock would stay in the ocean and be resupplied by tender.
@@mudball47 definitely an interesting idea. I have seen work on similar concepts. The main problem with a "drydock" concept is planning and logistics. I previously worked on an ocean going drydock. We call them semi-submersibles. And there was nothing simple about lifting a ship. We planned it months in advance. Good idea, but needs some refinement. 👍
Hmmm. Not really news Maersk has multiple wind assisted vessels using Flettner Rotors, which provide adjustable, movable wind operation with better sailing characteristics than the most efficient shaped sail. The economics for suitable routes are proven and repeatable. These foil solutions are just ignoring the proven technology.
How can you say that wind energy is low hanging fruit when you have right beneath your boat strong waves with much more dense energy per square meter, so the real low hanging fruit is wave energy
Wave energy has great potential, yes. I even designed a wave energy converter as my final project in University. The problem isn't the potential of the energy. It's creating a device that can economically convert that power into an industrial format. I agree that wave energy is worth pursuing. But we don't have a ready-made solution for wave energy. Sail propulsion has been tried, mass produced, and tested. We already know how to do sail propulsion. Wave energy still requires further development.
@@DatawaveMarineSolutions My design is a catamaran with movable pontoons, so the pontoons can individually bounce up and down, connected with a electric motor generator in the middle so when the wave hits the front of the pontoon, the front is pushing up, but keeping the deck stable making a more comfortable ride , in the same time harvesting wave energy! It’s possible that this design can work better with a trimaran
Thanks Nick. It may not be applicable to their sail design, but although wind is free, ropes tend to be expensive and require regular replacement on a sailing vessel. That is sort of hidden cost most people don't think about. You have mentioned fuel additives, and I wonder if that idea is viable (link with timestamp closer to the point): ua-cam.com/video/hL3AZGw9xZM/v-deo.html
Their cost/profit model is based around packing as many cattle into a small volume, and taking them, for all the money possible, adding complexity/cost, just isn't in the cards. For smaller niche markets, of a 'Sailing Holiday', possibilities exist.
@@carlthor91 But, the powerplant is not critical for that segment. Nor is cargo loading a issue. You need to redesign from the floating theme park hotel they are now; for masts however.🚢
@@shaider1982 What activity? No one is doing very much at the top of the ship. people climbing the Smoke Stacks now? Masts would not interfere with passengers at the buffet line.
@@WALTERBROADDUS The hotel load on the powerplant, multiple gensets, is nothing to be scoffed at. Multiple megawatts. The structural reinforcements, required to handle/distribute the wind loads, takes away from payload. All ships are set of deign choices.
They face all the same reasons the world stopped using wind propulsion. Sea states above 5, doldrums, slow speeds, and hurricane avoidance to name just a few. It's not that we can't design/build a sailing ship, it is that we can't make one with the same capabilities as a modern-day diesel-fueled or nuclear ship of any significant displacement. Sure, build them light, yes, but, at some point I see them restricted to low deadweight capacity. And that means world trade and shipping companies would be taking a big hit in its industry and we all know what happens to the world when that happens. The question is, does physics support the idea that wind propulsion maintains the same capabilities as modern ships? I doubt physics today allows us to build a sailing ship that can maintain a steady 22 knots across the ocean unless it is a hybrid. Nevertheless, give it a shot but, when it comes to money, money will win.
Or just stop shipping stuff from one side of the world forever. In Australia we have Icecream from Ireland and peas and carrots from France ,oranges from America. That is silly.
I am so happy to see you taking up this issue Nick. It is so important. It also has a place in the cruising market. Hope to see a viable version for sailboats one day.
ان فديوهاتك والمعلومات مفيده جدا ... شكرا لك على مجهودك
During the early 2000's, using kite-sails were proposed to help propel cargo ships. Only need to connect to the kites. No news from it since then. The sails are either deployed by the ship or some kite-sail tug that help tows a vessel.
Airseas
@@paraglidingSafety ohh, so it's now a business. Thanks for the info👍🏻
@@shaider1982 it is not a bussiness yet, they seem to be in early r&d, basically copying the approach that Skysails used in their PoC 10 years ago, with some minor modificatons, not necessarily for the best :)
@@paraglidingSafety ahh, ok, so still not practical.
Your point about their theoretical mast design and the incredible forces they will be subjected to is a good one. I suspect they will have to heavily redesign the mechanism that joins the mast to the deck, and probably simplify it to get it to function in reality.
great channel
Thanks Nick.
With many vessels now moving to diesel-electric I’ve always thought that using the wind as an electricity generator rather than a motive force might be easier/better. Wind turbines are already a mature technology, have no preference for wind direction, and can be tied into existing electric drive systems. The question is which system would be more efficient in turning wind into motive force. What do you think?
Heck, it may end up being a combination of technologies. Most new stuff is.
I would need to do the math to be sure, but I suspect that sails come out more efficient, depending on the use. Sails show small efficiency when traveling upwind, since the sail is angled to push mostly sideways. But upwind travel only encompasses about 1/4 of the possible wind angles. For the remaining wind angles, sails are very efficient.
Contrast that to wind turbines. True, those can work at any wind angle. But we lose a lot in the conversion. A typical wind turbine is only 50%-70% efficient at capturing the wind power. (They have a theoretical maximum of 67%.) Then we have efficiency losses to convert that power into electricity (conservative assumption: 95% efficiency). Then we need to convert that electric power back into propeller power with an electric motor. Electric motor are around 92-95% efficient. And the propeller is also only 65% efficient at converting shaft power into forward thrust.
So by using wind turbines, only 39% of the wind energy makes it back into forward thrust. Sails have their own losses too, but 39% is a pretty easy number to beat.
You want wind turbines?
Sailing ships have a lot of torsional stress because there's a twisting moment in the frame where the mast is attached. For modern ships to have sufficient torsional strength will likely require an extensive redesign versus what's built today possibly including hull shape changes and diagonal stringers.
Other ships which don't need to be compatible with shore cranes are tankers and passenger ships. The self loading/unloading bulk freighters of the Great Lakes could be another opportunity for wind propulsion. There is at least one competing technology called DynaRig that has been around for decades and has been used/tested on a few large yachts. In addition to crew sizes, I think much of the focus on single masts comes from yacht racing - a single masted sloop rig maximized maneuverability and the ability to sail into the wind, which is important in yacht racing, but not so much for larger ships. As for 200m masts, there are already several large yachts in service or construction with masts approaching 100m, but these are mostly attempts to scale up single masted racing yachts. I suspect that multiple smaller masts would be more optimal for cargo ships.
Great lakes ships aren't self-loaders. They are self-unloaders but they need to be loaded at an ore dock. The self-unloading system works via gravity. There's a belt below the cargo holds that carries the product to the elevator at the stern of the ship. It can not run in reverse.
Wie all know Ro-Ro stands for Roll in Roll over
I didn't ;-p
The reason most sailing yachts have one mast and usually two sails is not about reducing crew size. It is about getting the best windward efficiency. This is mainly necessary due to how sailboat races are conducted. They are very often upwind/downwind in nature. Upwind, the tall, two sail rig is champ. Downwind, it is also champ, due to being able to fly a very large downwind sail.
When raid-style racing was introduced, two masted boats started appearing and doing well. This is because raid racing is often across the wind.
BTW, the smallest working four masterd schooner is a little more than 6m long and is being built by Sven Yrvind. Its mast are all cantilever and don't extend very far below the deck. Each sail has just a halyard and a sheet line. They will have reefing points as well. But sail area can quickly be reduced by dropping one or more of the four sails. It looks complicated, but it is really quite simple.
AYRO's Oceanwings on Canopee are already sailing, apparently with interesting results (I joke Canopee is the most interesting part of the Ariane 6 rocket program 😂)
Comparing this video to modern 'Reaction Content' would be a sin against collective human intellect.
The reason my sailboat and most small sailboats have two or three or four sails (Sloop, cutter, ketch) is not simplicity, it's being able to sail close to the wind. Old square riggers can't sail 'into the wind.' These primarily sloop rigged boats , like my 46' boat, can sail 35 degrees 'off the wind' and I do it all the time. This is called Close Hauled and it's also the only way the America's Cup boats sail.
Sails on large ships, I think, is already a 'solved engineering problem.' Sails are just wings, we know all about wings. They already know how to do it. The large model in the video is just proof of concept. Yacht A, is a very large private sail yacht, everything about the sails is motor controlled. The sails roll out of the mast (as do mine). They're very efficient. What they are, compared to large container ships running on powerful engines, is slow.
A 1000' (300m) container ship can do 25 knots, my boat does 7. What needs to be worked out is what cargos can take 3 - 4 weeks to cross the Pacific and which cargos still need to get across in ten days?
I've sailed Asia, across the Pacific and regularly off the California coast. Most large ships were only doing about 14 knots, and the ones I see on AIS in the past couple of years off California are doing 9 knots.
Some of this is to lower pollution levels, save on increasingly expensive fuel. If speeds stay low like this, then sails on large ships could become competitive.
I always think that when the aliens do visit Earth, all their technology will be far more advanced than ours. But, unless they have oceans and sailing on their planet, they are going to be amazed that we can cross oceans for free with sails.
Storms. One of the reasons I became a sailor four years ago is weather prediction and communications have become so good, no one ever needs to sail in a hurricane or typhoon. We regularly avoided the most intense parts of the storms that were near where we sailed.
What ever happened to the “Calypso II” and its wind power system?
Drydock with sails. Ship would exit port by tug boat, be picked up by drydock with sails,be delivered to tug boats at new port. Drydock would stay in the ocean and be resupplied by tender.
@@mudball47 definitely an interesting idea. I have seen work on similar concepts. The main problem with a "drydock" concept is planning and logistics. I previously worked on an ocean going drydock. We call them semi-submersibles. And there was nothing simple about lifting a ship. We planned it months in advance. Good idea, but needs some refinement. 👍
Hmmm. Not really news Maersk has multiple wind assisted vessels using Flettner Rotors, which provide adjustable, movable wind operation with better sailing characteristics than the most efficient shaped sail.
The economics for suitable routes are proven and repeatable.
These foil solutions are just ignoring the proven technology.
How can you say that wind energy is low hanging fruit when you have right beneath your boat strong waves with much more dense energy per square meter,
so the real low hanging fruit is wave energy
Wave energy has great potential, yes. I even designed a wave energy converter as my final project in University. The problem isn't the potential of the energy. It's creating a device that can economically convert that power into an industrial format.
I agree that wave energy is worth pursuing. But we don't have a ready-made solution for wave energy. Sail propulsion has been tried, mass produced, and tested. We already know how to do sail propulsion. Wave energy still requires further development.
@@DatawaveMarineSolutions
My design is a catamaran with movable pontoons, so the pontoons can individually bounce up and down,
connected with a electric motor generator in the middle so when the wave hits the front of the pontoon, the front is pushing up, but keeping the deck stable making a more comfortable ride ,
in the same time harvesting wave energy!
It’s possible that this design can work better with a trimaran
Hi dont gat a clue for 100 fot and down
Thanks Nick.
It may not be applicable to their sail design, but although wind is free, ropes tend to be expensive and require regular replacement on a sailing vessel. That is sort of hidden cost most people don't think about.
You have mentioned fuel additives, and I wonder if that idea is viable (link with timestamp closer to the point):
ua-cam.com/video/hL3AZGw9xZM/v-deo.html
Very good look at the pros and cons. How about the cruise ships? They don't have the need for cargo cranes. Nor is high speed an issue....
Their cost/profit model is based around packing as many cattle into a small volume, and taking them, for all the money possible, adding complexity/cost, just isn't in the cards.
For smaller niche markets, of a 'Sailing Holiday', possibilities exist.
@@carlthor91 But, the powerplant is not critical for that segment. Nor is cargo loading a issue. You need to redesign from the floating theme park hotel they are now; for masts however.🚢
@@WALTERBROADDUS deck area for leisure activities will be decreased.
@@shaider1982 What activity? No one is doing very much at the top of the ship. people climbing the Smoke Stacks now? Masts would not interfere with passengers at the buffet line.
@@WALTERBROADDUS The hotel load on the powerplant, multiple gensets, is nothing to be scoffed at. Multiple megawatts.
The structural reinforcements, required to handle/distribute the wind loads, takes away from payload. All ships are set of deign choices.
They face all the same reasons the world stopped using wind propulsion. Sea states above 5, doldrums, slow speeds, and hurricane avoidance to name just a few. It's not that we can't design/build a sailing ship, it is that we can't make one with the same capabilities as a modern-day diesel-fueled or nuclear ship of any significant displacement. Sure, build them light, yes, but, at some point I see them restricted to low deadweight capacity. And that means world trade and shipping companies would be taking a big hit in its industry and we all know what happens to the world when that happens. The question is, does physics support the idea that wind propulsion maintains the same capabilities as modern ships? I doubt physics today allows us to build a sailing ship that can maintain a steady 22 knots across the ocean unless it is a hybrid. Nevertheless, give it a shot but, when it comes to money, money will win.
Ships use kite long time
Wind Assisted Propulsion = WAP
Move over Maersk, Cardi B gonna run the oceans.
Or just stop shipping stuff from one side of the world forever. In Australia we have Icecream from Ireland and peas and carrots from France ,oranges from America. That is silly.
Kite