This video is absolutely correct because the clicker torque wrench mechanism doesn't measure torque at the socket - it actually measures at the pivot where the ratchet head attaches to the tool's shaft. The torque at the socket is greater than the torque at the pivot due to the added length from pivot to socket - so to correct for this the torque wrench scale is "doctored" with a correction factor to produce the right torque at the socket. The correction factor is a ratio: (distance from grip to socket)/(distance from grip to pivot). The problem is, this ratio changes as you move your grip position - from 1.00 (with an infinite handle extension) to infinity (if you were to grab right at the pivot). On my Craftsman wrench I measured this ratio to be about 1.09, which is probably typical. So depending on where you grab, your torque can vary from 9% too low all the way up to infinite torque. The only place where the correction factor is accurate is right at the center of the hand grip. So be sure to grab it there. If you need to use both hands, put one on top of the other to keep all the force applied to the grip.. Every torque wrench manual I've read says you must grip the tool at the hand grip only, but none explain why this is. Now you know.......
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i just watched a 12 minute video explaining that with math (whitch i didnt understand) and then you just come here and expain it to me within 20 sekunds and 1 sentence, thx for the easy explanation
EDITED!! Stuff is called length dependency or lever sensitivity. It is because "click" style torque wrench have secondary pivot point somewhere in the middle of the shaft (depends on the wrench). So whole torque measuring process is happening at this "secondary pivot" point. Therefore distance from this point to the socket works as an extension. So when hand is placed closer to the "secondary pivot" point it requires more force to achieve set torque resulting with more force being applied to "extension". It took me 20min to research. ;) Great video! Thanks! Original post below Watching it in slow-mo. at 0.25 speed. At short distance, after torque wrench "clicked" you kept applying force. Reading value "jumped" after click! So although set "click" force was accurate, additional "unwanted" force caused by poor control increased reading. Those "click" torque wrenches are designed to "click" at set torque. And it does not matter if large torque is applied at short distance or little torque it applied at long distance ;) It is more about control. As pressing hard on short handle makes it more difficult to stop once set value is reached ;) More accurate test would be Clamp long bar to the torque wrench and use pull scale at different distances. Calculate pull-force required to achieve desire torque and do multiple distances. As you go further away, the pull force will reduce but wrench will keep clicking at set value. It is important that extension bar is clamped - otherwise reading will be "shakey" ;)
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To those who wonder why, there is an explanation here: www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/torque_wrench_1.htm This type of "click" wrench has indeed a lever/fulcrum mechanism inside the shaft (see wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_wrench#/media/File:Direct_pawl_clicker_torque_concept.png ). So, the mechanism can be simplified as this: T2 T1 F | | | | | v o-------o------------|==== A force "F" is applied on the handle, at the length "L2". The setting of the torque wrench actually sets T1; it is the torque at which the fulcrum will buckle (and produce the "click" noise). The bolt will be torqued at T2. If you take the equations: T1 = F * L2 T2 = F * (L1 + L2) You want T2 a function of T1 and the length of the hand on the shaft, which is L2 (because this is actually where the bolt is, not T1, remember): you then replace F with either T1 or T2 and you have: T2/(L1 + L2) = T1/L2 and so T2 = ((L1 + L2) * T1)/L2 L1 is fixed, because it is inside the shaft (take a look back at the wiki diagram). Basically, that means that the torque at the bolt (T2) will NOT be the same for a specific setting (T1, set on the wrench) if the force is applied at different place on the shaft. It looks like the function f(x) = 1/x. You can pick fixed numbers for L1 and T1, calculate few "points" for T2 (depending on differents L2) and draw a diagram: it will all make sense :)!
You can see an example here: zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=21/12/45lf.png You see that for a fixed torque set on the wrench (T1), the "output" torque seen by the bolt (T2) really depends on the spot where you apply the force on the handle (L2). That is why it is important to correctly handle the wrench, where the manufacturer tells you to. This is because at this specific point, this is the correct "ratio" where the set torque on the wrench will actually be the one applied to the bolt.
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Thank you so much for this comment. Your explanations along with the wikipedia image give me a better idea of how these things work.Very much appreciate you taking the time.
Hey you are great teacher that took your time and showed it better than anyone explains verbally for me. I watched a video drawing erasing calculating but he made me confused but your script is enough without any calculation.
I’m a structural engineer (1980). The torque measurement mechanism is specifically designed for a consistent load application point. This obviously is the handle. There is more complexity going on in the measuring devise than appears to a simple observation. These forces of shear, axial, force couple, angle of force application, rotational torsion, gear friction, thread friction, variable stiffness spring constant and other characteristics are affected by the force application location. The handle works!
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@@petethewrist Not True. In fact if you have the complete formula you can calculate what the error will be for any hand position which matches the tested values. It's hard to understand it but it absolutely is a fact, hand position matters. The best explanation I've seen is the vid "Why GRIP Position on Torque Wrenches MATTERS!" by The Bike Sauce who breaks it down.
I know its an old video, but had to comment. The outer tube flexes, this is taken into account when the wrench is calibrated. The trip mechanism is about half way down the tube, if you manipulate the tube in any way, ie putting pressure on it in a way that differs from hoe it was calibrated you'll affect how it trips.
I don't know if the handle flexes significantly, I suspect the answer is "no". But that's not the issue. Even if the handle were perfectly rigid the torque will still vary depending on where you place your hand. It may not be intuitive but it's definitely true. Dust off your high school geometry and trig skills and see for yourself.
The reason for the higher numbers when you grip only part way up the handle is easy- almost no one can react fast enough to release their pressure on the handle before reaching the end of the stroke after it clicks, which will produce a higher torque reading. It has nothing to do with the torque wrench itself.
Wrong. It has everything to do with where you place your hand. If you can't react fast enough to stop pulling when the wrench clicks, you'd get excessive torque even if you hold the wrench properly. It's a matter of geometry, not reaction time.
One of the best channels out there. I'm a powersports student and I watch your videos all the time to supplement what I get at school. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Graham Wilding I'd enjoy chatting with you sometime. Email me. Find the contact link below. Thank you for the kind words. If I can ever be of service to you, here is a video explains how to connect with me. ua-cam.com/video/vjvmB01ebcs/v-deo.html Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Instructor/Motivator/Motorcyclist www.how2wrench.com Like freebies? Click here for a free diagnostic checklist! gem.godaddy.com/signups/364621/join Did you like this free video and hope to see more? Would you just like to say thank you with a donation? Click www.paypal.me/how2wrench
Great video! In a recent discussion with my engineering and technician colleagues, no one was believing me that it was important to hold a clicker type torque wrench at the proper location. I pulled out your video and it made believers out of everyone. A little retraining and all’s good. Thanks!
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Fantastic! I'd have never have guessed it would have mattered so long as it clicked. Without seeing this I would have been sure it wouldn't have mattered, thanks
Shane you help me with so much threw my mechanic career. I'm only 15 and all your videos on your little tips help me a lot with saving money in the long run and just overall helping me. I am still wanting to go to a motorcycle mechanic college and yours seems great. I might see you in a couple of years. Who knows!
Dear Shane, I am a fellow teacher (different profession!) watching your channel from a half a world away. Rarely have I seen someone giving of themselves so freely as you do purely to help your students and pass down your knowledge and skills to others. I also note the generous "Creative Commons" licence you offer on your videos. As we know teaching is an extremely demanding profession, where many hours of preparation are required for one hour of in class delivery. I have enjoyed and learned much from your videos. As we say in Oz its very easy to be a "knocker", and a great deal more difficult to be a "doer". kind regards, Richard C.
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hand placement does affect the effective torque on the clicker wrenches, and it's because of the different side forces (non torsional force) that result when it's being applied closer or further away from the pivot. When the force is being applied close to the pivot, there's greater amounts of friction on the pivot, which will tend to impede the rotation at the pivot, and cause the click to occur later, and increase the effective torque. Similarly, when the pushing from the far end, less of that side force is exerted on the pivot, and consequently less friction on the pivot, so it'll tend to click sooner, having less impediment to the rotation.
Nope. It has nothing to do with friction. Even if the pivot is perfectly frictionless, the torque will still vary depending on where you place your hand. It's a matter of geometry, not friction.
One thing that I cannot seem to find any videos or anything about, that I am super curious about but I don't have any super expensive and really accurately calibrated machines like you guys would. Couple of days here in Iowa the low temperature has been below zero degrees Fahrenheit with a wind-chill of around -25°F to -30°F. Now, I have a very basic understanding of how torque wrenches work internally and also have an understanding of how metals can expand and contract from hot and cold temperatures. So even though my being out here in the garage with thermals and coveralls or my heated hoodie may keep me nice and warm and thanks for keep my brain thinking straight and calibrated. How do the cold temperatures in the garage affect the spring inside of my torque wrench? For example my torque wrench which could be perfectly accurate down to the fraction of a percent during the summer when it was calibrated, now that the climate has changed from being a hundred degrees to below 0 degrees how does that affect the condition of this spring inside the torque wrench? I'm sure it has to even if it is very minut, I'm sure it has to have some kind of effect on the accuracy of the tool
Very good video. I am an Engineer and have watched a few of your videos to date. You are 100% about handling the torque wrench in the center. One thing I want to add is how to pull the wrench. You should not push down on a torque wrench. You should pull the wrench with your hand positioned in the center. This allows you to control the motion and stop at the click. Also, as the fastener tightens, you need to slow down until the wrench clicks. This ensures you do not overtravel. You nailed the 25 lbs.-ft once in your video. Try again and avoid pushing down on the wrench. Pull it towards you, as you tighten, to observe how the torque is attained close to your setpoint. You have a great channel and are an excellent instructor (and your videos are spot on). This is something I wanted to add since pulling towards you, rather than pushing, allows you to control the clamping force and stretch the fastener more effectively. More often, pushing usually gets you over the target torque. Keep up the good work!!
Well thank you! We will share this with Shane directly in Fridays meeting! You rock for commenting! We encourage experience and well wrote out comments like yours Bryon. Grab our T-shirt! Support links and gear below! Awesome and thanks for commenting! Smash the subscribe button (thank if already a sub!) Have you seen our "UA-cam Trained Support Shirts? Great way to "high five us" goodfellasmerch.com/collections/how-2-wrench/products/support-shirt Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Got an emergency and your head is about to explode from frustration or fear? Get Shane’s cell here: how2wrench.com/ols/products/techline-one-on-one
Good evening. I just watched this video (4-29-17). I find you to be an excellent tech and instructor. I would urge you to ignore those with small minds. Keep On Wrenching!!
I just found your channel. This was the first video of yours I clicked on. I’m so glad I did. Don’t worry about those that snipe at us content creators. We have a UA-cam channel to help others and most are appreciative. Focus on them! I am a new subscriber now and the bad part is now I have to take my whole day and watch all your stuff. Hahaha. Keep up the good work!
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I'm a retired physicist and a gear head who really likes these videos. Back when I was teaching Mechanics physics courses in college I would have loved to have done this problem in deriving the relationship between the applied force, the application point, the pivot distances, the compression force of the spring and the shear force at the cam point. The applied torque is scaled to the spring force through a ratio of the pivot distances and some other constants. This simple linear relationship only holds when the pivot distances are constant, what the manufacturer established.
It's hard to understand it but it absolutely is a fact, hand position matters. The best explanation I've seen is the vid "Why GRIP Position on Torque Wrenches MATTERS!" by The Bike Sauce who breaks it down.
The difficulty people seem to be having is that they don't realize the wrench isn't measuring torque at the center of the fastener/socket. Or they have never thought through the consequences of that fact. This kind of torque wrench doesn't know the torque on the fastener. It just reacts to the torque at the clicker mechanism (various designs exist) that is hidden inside the handle. Because the clicker is closer to your hand than the fastener is, it will feel a smaller torque than the fastener. But that's okay, because those two torques are mathematically related. And by calibrating the clicker properly, the fastener torque will be correct. If the clicker is located 80% of the way from the hand grip to the fastener, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80% of the torque setting you choose. But the fastener (since it is all the way at the end of the wrench) feels a torque equal to 100% of the set torque. Perfect. This hypothetical torque wrench will always have the same 80:100 ratio between clicker torque and fastener torque. But ONLY if your hand stays in the correct position. Let's see why... Imagine you move your hand so the clicker is perfectly equidistant between your hand and the fastener. This means that the clicker is now located 50% of the way from your hand to the fastener, and the real torques will have a 50:100 ratio. If you set your wrench for 100 ft-lbs/Nm/etc, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80. But since your hand position has made the actual ratio 50:100 (i.e. 1:2), the torque at the faster will be 80x2 = 160! You've just severely over-torqued your fastener. Likewise, imagine you extend the handle so your wrench is twice as long, and place your hand at the end. The clicker will now be 90% of the way from your hand to the fastener, and the real torques will have a 90:100 ratio. If you set your wrench for 100 ft-lbs/Nm/etc, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80. But since your hand position has made the actual ratio 90:100 (i.e. 9:10), the torque at the faster will be 80x(10/9)=88.89! You've just under-torqued your fastener. If your torque wrench is the kind that measures torque at the fastener, then you don't have to worry about hand placement. The ratio between measured torque and fastener torque is 1:1. But if your wrench works like most click-style wrenches, then hand position absolutely does matter.
That was really useful. I kind of knew already that hand position is important when using a torque wrench. It gets messy and confusing enough anyway for students (and the rest of us supposed professionals) when learning how to calculate torque correctly when using the approved attachments each tool company provides. Not handling the wrench properly just makes it impossible to do accurate work. Your empirical approach gives irrefutable evidence that hand position is pretty critical when using these very precise wrenches. These companies invest a lot of money researching and testing and finally manufacturing a reliable, and trustworthy piece of equipment. We need to honour that commitment to quality by using their tools as they were designed to be used. I am now a new subscriber. Two thumbs up !!!
I throughly enjoy your channel. I can tell that you enjoy teaching.........Your doing a great job! Remember hater will hate--------that's what they do!
Be honest with ya, I was about to torque down a rocker box on my motorcycle and realized that my torque wrench was too tall with a step down and socket so I thought I’d put on an extension, but realize that I’m adding torque length for an 18-25 ft. Lbs. then I seen one of your other videos about if it’s 90 degrees off the extension then it will cancel it’s self off. Thanks for the educational videos man. You’re right, there’s many jerks and haters out there. I appreciate the education. Keep it going. Shared knowledge like this helps us slow joes smile when we get our vehicles running in decent condition. So, educational knowledge applied makes mechanics smile!!!
Shane, I see where controversy might be originating from... people might be thinking/assuming that this click-style torque wrench works ideally based on moment about a point M= f * d (where M- moment, f-force applied, and d- perpendicular distance from the axis to the line of action of the force). So in ideal world with ideal torque wrench that only "sees"(measures) moment(torque) at the a point it should "click" no matter where you apply the force from(following rules form above); obviously you would have to apply more or less force with decreased or increased distance respectively. However, this "click" type of torque wrenche has a mechanism that seems to be based on a specific deflection point on the arm. In other words the mechanism requires you to apply force at a specific range of a distance for it to be within acceptable parameters per-design. Something along the lines of cantilever beam and how it deflects in the middle of the beam if force is applied at the unsupported end. I would suggest to try and contact a Snap-on engineer and see if they can give a simple explanation how the mechanism actually works... this should help clear up the controversy. What this looks like is a good example of difference between theory and real-world application where tools do not follow theory in all ranges of possible applications. You can explore all of the theory for yourself if you watch some videos or get some engineering books regarding Statics or sign up for a class at the local college/university. Also, after statics you might like to look at Mechanics of Materials or Mechanics of Solids which builds up on Statics but applies material properties (deflections, stress, strains, shear and etc.) and Dynamics. Hope this helps.
I'm a mechanical engineer with over 25 years of experience and absolutely love your channel. You have a good delivery and very clearly enjoy what you do. I've always been perplexed about the hand placement is important claim regarding torque wrenches. For the life of me, I can't think of a scientific reason why it would make a difference where you apply the load to the arm provided one stops pushing the instant the wrench clicks. The releasing pivot knows nothing of where or how the load is being applied to the handle. I'm wondering of the answer lies in how quickly a human (you) can react when the click occurs. Typically we apply a force until the click happens. The click releases the force being delivered to the fastener and provides a cue to the operator to stop pushing. If you hold the handle and apply a force and react super sllllooowwlllyyy after the click happens, you will continue to apply additional force. I'm sure the release pivot has a certain angle that it deflects when the desired torque is reached. For the sake of discussion, lets assume it's 5 degrees. This means that the release pivot releases the head by 5 degrees when the set torque is reached. In the instant the head releases, a trained mechanic 'knows' to stop pushing. If they stop pushing before the handle of the wrench rotates more than 5 degrees, no additional torque is applied to the fastener. If they are slow and continue to push, the release head will still be bent the five degrees and additional torque will be applied to the fastener. I suspect the designers of the wrench know how much release deflection angle is required to allow a mechanic ample time to stop pushing when the click happens while holding the handle in the recommended spot. I would like to see the test performed again while taking the above information into consideration. Not a criticism at all but it appeared that you reacted with normal reaction time while holding the wrench close to the fastener which resulted in a high reading. I would love to see a data log of the applied torque versus time. I would bet it increased steadily, released and then went up again during your reaction time resulting in the high reading. I wonder if AvE has ever tackled this subject.
Keep in mind that a click type torque wrench has two pivot points. The point of fastener rotation and the point that the wrench moves when it clicks. The point that a torque wrench moves when it clicks should always correspond with the torque wrench setting and shouldn’t be affected by hand placement. The point of fastener rotation is a combination of the click pivot torque and the entire wrench torque from hand grip to fastener pivot point. If you move your hand toward the pivot points, more hand pressure will be required to get the “click pivot” to click for a given torque setting due to a shorter lever. So the click pivot torque is the same. But, the fastener pivot is the sum of torque applied to both pivots, which has been changed by moving the hand position toward the pivot points and applying greater force in order to get the “click pivot” to click at a given torque setting. So, when you change hand position, you are not changing the torque at the “click pivot”, but you are changing the torque at the fastener pivot.
Hi Shane.I took up your offer and watched this re-do video. Two things that i noted after watching this video. First, your correct test using a Torque Wrench. ( No 68 Thumbs Up) Second, Is difficult to cater to all taste when posting videos on UA-cam. I found your channel via the word Snap-on. As i was watching a few different videos about Snap-on Tools and yours came up demonstrating the correct use of a Torque Wrench. I walked right into the middle of a war between Yourself and Alex.( LOL) As mentioned in a previous comment i totally understand your position. After watching this video i find that your channel is very informative and helpful to your viewers and you take a very open minded approach to the comments that you receive good or bad which is very important when building a channel. I guess this is a total revoke of my earlier comments about you as the previous video was my first time watching your channel. The only right thing to do now is become a Subscriber ( No 9273) All the best and talk / comment soon Regards Peter.
Hey man I really hope that you don't continue to get discouraged by people's negative comments, because what you're doing is helping people. And I for one absolutely completely grateful for you man, you got to remember you too and the comment section gives absolutely everybody and anybody of voice whether they're 16 years old and they think it's funny just to say stupid crap or whether or not they've ever even picked up a tool in their life, when you see comments that are just ridiculous coming up to that man there just ridiculous they're probably uneducated they're probably young even if they're not young either way they're obviously less than intelligent and it doesn't even matter dude you're helping people PERIOD
Hello John. Thank you for taking the time to write the kind note. It's hard to believe this video is 5 years old. And you hit it on the head. Back then I was thinking about giving up. Sure glad I was inspired all these years by positive people like you....Keep Wrenching my friend...If ever in Phoenix, come stop by...Shane Awesome and thanks for commenting! Can you smash that subscribe button and share our channel please? We have over 700 videos in playlists! Even more training and deep dives if ever needed… Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Just want to say thanks quick to support us for this information and our work saving you money? Give us a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench
people are insane. it's impossible to try to make sense of what people do. I have left some comments elsewhere that I regret now. I see both sides but lean toward the positive now. Nice video. I wish I had that machine.
I have watched every one of your videos that I have found and have learned something useful every time. Keep posting and I will keep watching and learning, and hopefully one day I can have a fraction of the knowledge you have !
So nice of you. Thank you for commenting. Want more benefits? Smash the subscribe button and bell! Want even more??? Join the channel: -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin Just want to say thanks quick to support us for this information and our work saving you money? Give us a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench
Wow! I've been an auto mechanic going on 16 years and never knew hand placement was so important. Granted, I can't recall any time where I haven't used the grip (because that's the whole purpose of a grip - a place to grab) but it's really cool to see how much of an effect wrong handling can have. I knew about extensions and adapters changing the final value but never thought about grip. While I tend to follow service or use instructions anyway, the additional proof via actual data is the icing on the cake. I know I can fix something if I follow the manufacturer procedures, but I also know I didn't engineer the damned contraptions I fix and therefore have no business ignoring what the engineers tell me to do. Love your work, man. Don't let the haters get you down - they rely on yip-yap and shortcut guesswork while you have the direct support of engineers. Anonymity makes idiots and jerks far braver than they would be while face to face. Keep it up!
Thank you for the kind words. If I can ever be of service to you, here is a video explains how to connect with me. ua-cam.com/video/vjvmB01ebcs/v-deo.html Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Instructor/Motivator/Motorcyclist www.how2wrench.com Did you like this free video and hope to see more? Would you just like to say thank you with a donation? Click www.paypal.me/how2wrench
Shane forget about the haters. There will always be keyboard warriors that just yap and can’t prove anything. Just cause “I’ve done it that way for years and never had a problem” doesn’t necessarily mean they can back up their statements with any science. Keep up the great videos!
Great response Shane! I m a scientist and I agree on the different position that effect variable forces even though the pivoting point is set to a tolerance. This is physics but a lot deeper than basic fundamentals. Thanks for sharing and my community appreciate your work.
Thank you for sharing…below are some links that help support me and my work. Please subscribe and share these videos to make a difference in education! Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Shirt/Stickers link: how2wrench.com/product-category/specials/ Want to say “thanks” or “keep it up”? Click www.paypal.me/how2wrench Follow us! Web: www.How2Wrench.com www.Tools2Wrench.com UA-cam: ua-cam.com/users/ShaneConleyhow2wrench Instagram: instagram.com/how2wrench/ Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/shane-conley-how2wrench/ Facebook: facebook.com/MechanicsLearningSharingPage/ Free Mechanic info, tool reviews, and “how to” videos newsletter sign up: how2wrench.com/subscribe-free-newsletter/ Amazon Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/shaneconleyhow2wrench?ref=ac_inf_hm_vp
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thanks again for the info. I over torqued my clutch pressure plate bolts because i had my wrench set wrong had to extract the broken end from the basket, which was a job on its own. awesome videos thanks you!
Screw the people that do not want to listen and learn. That's why they are idiots today. Keep up the good work. I have been in mechanics for years and love to watch your channel. Thanks
Awesome videos. Just found your channel a couple of weeks ago and I'm loving all the tips. Can't wait to watch all the other playlist. Don't let the negative nancys get to you. Keep the videos coming
Thank you! Please share on your social media! Make sure to subscribe and click the notifications button for all future videos! Also, my playlists are broken down pretty well. The most popular one being: "Every Mechanic Should Know This" ua-cam.com/play/PLAtBOuPaEyt_uMyVlK1tsBVnSYW1Q0vCK.html Feel free to make any suggestions or reach out to me for personal mentorship, Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Instructor/Motivator/Motorcyclist
Hi Shane I’m a fellow biker from England and have a lot of time for you keep doing what you’re doing you can’t buy what you’re doing so keep at it and I will support you in any way possible keep biking 🏍👍
Thank you for sharing…below are some links that help support me and my work. Please subscribe and share these videos to make a difference in education! Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Shirt/Stickers link: how2wrench.com/product-category/specials/ Want to say “thanks” or “keep it up”? Click www.paypal.me/how2wrench Follow us! Web: www.How2Wrench.com www.Tools2Wrench.com UA-cam: ua-cam.com/users/ShaneConleyhow2wrench Instagram: instagram.com/how2wrench/ Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/shane-conley-how2wrench/ Facebook: facebook.com/MechanicsLearningSharingPage/ Free Mechanic info, tool reviews, and “how to” videos newsletter sign up: how2wrench.com/subscribe-free-newsletter/ Amazon Tools: www.amazon.com/shop/shaneconleyhow2wrench?ref=ac_inf_hm_vp
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Thanks for this video. I wasn't aware of this, it will change my torque wrench use, but I have to admit that it still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the click mechanism is out at the end of the wrench, what does it care where rest of the wrench is being pushed on? So 100 ft pounds is 100 pounds at 12" from the pivot. Same as 50 pound 24" from the pivot or 200 pounds 6" out. Right? Recently I was torquing some very small bolts to 30 inch pounds and I choked up on the handle because it was such a small force. Certainly the handle wasn't flexing at all, so how does that make me over torque? To be clear, I'm not arguing at all, just trying to learn why. Again, thanks for the info.
Glad it helped! You rock for commenting! We will let Shane know! Shane doesn't pretend to be an engineer but trusts that ALL torque wrench manufactures train and stand behind this. That's the best answer we can supply as to "why". Honestly wish we knew the science and engineering behind it but I've heard Shane say to students "why fight good practice" you're better off spending your time getting better at electrical skills...lol...little joke he makes with them... Want even more? Best $2 you'll ever spend... Ways to support or high five How 2 Wrench! Thank you in advance. YOU MOTIVATE US TO DO MORE! 1. Smash the subscribe button (thank if already a sub!) 2. Have you seen our "UA-cam Trained Support Shirts? goodfellasmerch.com/collections/how-2-wrench/products/support-shirt 3. Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways 4. Got an emergency and your head is about to explode from frustration or fear? Get Shane’s cell here: how2wrench.com/ols/products/techline-one-on-one
Thanks for your posts. I learn from your presentations and I have an extreme amount of experience. I say, "never to old to learn". I subscribed to your channel because of what you are presenting and how you present it. As for the idiots you get, they are everywhere on the internet. For every one of them there are thousands who learn. Please don't get discouraged and don't give these guys the time of day. Your time is best spent, putting out good information to those who want to learn. 14 motorcycles in my life time and my latest is a modified by me 2010 FLSTFB Lo.
Thank you for the kind words and sharing my work. If I can ever be of service to you, here is a video explains how to connect with me. ua-cam.com/video/vjvmB01ebcs/v-deo.html Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Instructor/Motivator/Motorcyclist www.how2wrench.com Like freebies? Click here for a free diagnostic checklist! gem.godaddy.com/signups/364621/join Did you like this free video and hope to see more? Would you just like to say thank you with a donation? Click www.paypal.me/how2wrench
While it is true that hand placement on torque wrench handle is important, there is a little bit more to the issue than that. Click style torque wrenches will click at different torque, while set to the same torque setting, if the speed of moving the handle is altered. The difference in this torque consistency is smaller on expansive wrenches than on cheaper wrenches. Having your hand closer to the drive, puts more force on your hand, so you move the wrench slower and creep up to the click, resulting in higher torque at the click. Using extension allows you to use less force, so you move faster and wrench clicks sooner than intended. Why am I saying this? To point out that not only the hand placement, but the actual technique is important with click style wrenches. Overall, I totally agree about the haters, if you ignore them, eventually they will go away.
@petethewrist agreed, but according to my testing of cheap click style wrenches the speed can cause up to 10% variance. Not a big deal in many cases, but user should be aware.
I do not understand how the drive end can tell the difference. But your test shows it does. Wouldn't have believed it otherwise, but now I want to know why it makes a difference since you would think the drive end would always click at the same set torque every time regardless of the amount of leverage on the other end.
I just searched it, replying to my comment one minute later. It has to do with the bending of the wrench itself. The wrench is measuring the amount of bending happening and clicks when x amount of bending should occur at x amount of torque. Choking up on the handle will decrease the amount of bending and going further back increases the bending. It all makes perfect sense now.
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Think of it like this - if you were to grab right at the pivot where the head attaches, the wrench would never click no matter how hard you pull. In other words you'd apply infinite torque, regardless of the wrench setting. As you move your hand toward the grip the torque becomes finite but still higher than the wrench setting. When you reach the grip the torque is finally correct. Continue past the grip (with a handle extension) and the torque will be less than the wrench setting.
@@LostBeetle Sorry but that's not what's going on. Even at the lowest setting (where the wrench certainly isn't bending!) your hand placement is still important. It's geometry, not bending of the wrench, that causes this. The wrench doesn't bend, for heaven's sake🙄.
Scientifically (theoretically) speaking - this makes no sense. Distance does not matter. 1 pound at 10 feet will produce the exact same torque as applying 10 pounds at 1 foot. However - your measurements are indisputable as well. My take is that there is something about the way the machine measures that's being thrown off by the increase in downward force you're having to apply when pushing it down up close. Although I always do, I will keep this in mind when using torque wrenches on my cars. Thanks for the video!
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Yeah, I was thinking about this too. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it here. Must have something to do with the clicking mechanism and that torque is still being added after the wrench clicks.
you have a valid point, but you have to put in consideration the way that click wrenches work. Physics remain the same, and you can easily test the machine with a long enough rod and a weight. In all cases shown here, the force is down and equally applied. Whats even more surprising is that the shorter the distance, more torque was produced
The difference is that this torque wrench doesn`t and cannot mesure torque at the faster (square drive) It does so at the pivot point (part that bends when it clicks) And then rely on the ratio of the lenght between the pivot point and the handle\drive to which its calibrated to. An old school solid torque wrench like a dial or needle type would not be affected by hand position since it actually mesure torque at the fastener and does not rely on any handle lenght ratio
Smiley Tactical is correct. The shorter the distance between the socket centre and the ‘click’ mechanism, the less effect hand position will have. Hand position is a non issue for dial types that rely on the twist of a short section of shaft concentric to the socket. Beam style torque wrenches are very sensitive to hand position, so much so that they often have a pivot built into the handle so the force is applied at a specific point.
Another problem I see people do is jerk on the torque wrench after hearing the clicking noise.I stop after hearing the clicking noise.Jerking on it gives a false reading.
If the readings are always over the target that could very well be an issue. If it's lower, then it's not the operator. The problem is there's only a small range of movement between the click point and the stop, unlike the really high range torque wrenches that have a very large release area, and there's much less likelihood of continuing to torque beyond the click release.
I discovered this channel yesterday when I needed help using Sunex torque adapters. This is excellent information. Could you please show how using a traditional extension(FOR A deep hole) that is 10 inches long affects torque?
Wish he could, but this is a really old video and he no longer has access to the tester. He was hoping to add something to his collection this year. Glad it helped. You rock for commenting! We will let Shane know! You can give him a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench Another way to help us back is joining or grabbing our T-shirt! Support links and gear below! Awesome and thanks for commenting! Smash the subscribe button (thank if already a sub!) Have you seen our "UA-cam Trained Support Shirts? Great way to "high five us" goodfellasmerch.com/collections/how-2-wrench/products/support-shirt Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Got an emergency and your head is about to explode from frustration or fear? Get Shane’s cell here: how2wrench.com/ols/products/techline-one-on-one
Cool video! I’m glad I watched it. I‘m going to guess that as your hand moves up and down the handle it’s altering the angle of the force on the clicker and as a result alters the trigger point. The closer to the clicker you are the more acute the error on that angle is and so the torque error is higher. Makes sense to me!!
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Hi Shane, thanks for this video. I love your channel and I think its the best one I ever watched on teaching people the right way to do things which I love. I never understood why the hand has to be on the handle itself but its very interesting to see the results of this test.
Just want to take a moment to thank you for this video. I'm only a novice / home DIY guy but I try to learn how to do things correctly. At some point I read you should hold a torque wrench around the mark on the handle - and lo and behold I found two marks around the handles of my two existing torque wrenches, about where the ring finger rests (so not centred). Now I've just bought a smaller 1/4" for working on bicycles and it doesn't have a mark so I was confused. I started thinking maybe it was a myth anyway since in general if I shorten the distance, I need to increase the force to get the same torque as there's less mechanical advantage of the handle/lever. The inverse is why a longer breaker bar or using a 'cheater pipe' lets us get away with applying less force to undo a stubborn nut or bolt - we're applying that lesser force but over a greater distance, so same amount of total work done - and I figured the torque wrench was measuring that total work and hence maybe hand placement just doesn't matter. Your tester machine shows I was close to convincing myself of something false. I still don't really understand how the torque wrench 'knows' where you're applying force - but I guess your machine doesn't lie :-) [update - found comment by benhetfield below to be extremely enlightening as to the how & why]
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I wonder if the test would give different results if force were applied to the tool using a mechanical loader (like in a metrology lab), rather than by hand. I've tried this test on a dial-type wrench and got the exact same reading on the Standard whether force was applied to the center of the handle, 18" extended (a pipe), or 18" closer to the head.
The results are the same using a mechanical loading bench, but the outcome will be different depending on whether the torque wrench mechanism under test is or is not Length Dependent. Some designs are not length sensitive, one such is the usual dial indicating deflecting beam. They can be used with a handle extension, or operated with the hand up towards the head, without changing the accuracy of the torque reading. The same applies to slipping cam wrenches. But common click types and most other beam wrenches deliver wrong torque when operated away from the handgrip.
Shane you actually seem like you're a very nice person. I appreciate people like more than you even realize. There's always gonna be idiots. Man don't even let that shit bother you
I would never had thought that hand placement did change the torque. I believe it now, of course, but I don't understand how it affects the torque. :( Thank you very much btw. One learns every day thx to guys like you.
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This is the first video I’ve seen. Bummer you get some bad apples. Love this video. It’s non intuitive to think a cheater bar reduces your applied torque! Great to see the example. I do have a question. I know extensions present issues in applied torque, but my question is you normally have to put your hand on the head of the torque wrench & the other hand on the handle to make sure it doesn’t slip off whatever you’re trying to torque. Does supporting the head of a torque wrench while the other hand is on the correct spot on the handle effect the applied torque when using an extension & if you’re not using an extension?
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I AM an engineer. I've been a licensed structural engineer for a long time, all we do is work with forces and torques. My father owned a garage for over 60 years so I also know more than a little bit about working on cars including use of torque wrenches. The way the click-type torque wrench works the forces that it is measuring internal to the wrench will vary depending on how you place your hand on the wrench. The click mechanism doesn't know what total torque is being applied to the fastener, it only knows what the internal forces are at its little click mechanism. There are other types of torque wrenches with different internal mechanisms that might be affected differently by hand position, I don't have experience with all of the different types. However your test showed that if you have your hand reasonably on the hand grip it doesn't matter very much. I've found that some torque wrenches vary in accuracy from brand to brand, type to type, and also depending on if you are in the middle of their design operating range or at one of the ends. For most uses I don't think torque settings are as important as we make them out to be but I have also seen situations where a little extra torque on a rod bolt caused it to fail.
why does the gauge show numbers in red and green colour? how does it know the "correct" answer? edited: just found the answer in another video. The gauge was set on specific number before.
Thanks for making this video. I think it points out that, once again, one should never take technology for granted. Even the humble torque wrench. Or, perhaps, I should say, the humbling torque wrench. My take is that to to understand what is going on here you really have to understand both the torque wrench mechanism and exactly how the meter is measuring torque. Mostly the former. The head of the torque wrench experiences both the applied torque (force times moment arm) and a linear reaction force equal and opposite the force applied to the wrench by the operator. In the demonstration that change in the reaction force affects the wrench's internal mechanism such that the calibration is no longer correct. An interesting experiment, or thought experiment, would be to apply the torque using a T handle torque wrench (if such a thing existed). Then change the distance of your hands (two hands on the wrench this time!). I suspect in that case the hypothetical T handle torque wrench would be unaffected because the two forces applied to the wrench create a pure moment (i.e. torque) and the net reaction force on the wrench head is zero in all cases where you have your hands applying forces equidistance from the wrench center.
Replying to self... I just looked at some diagrams that show the basic design of a "clicker" torque wrench (see wikipedia). These wrenches have a head that rotates on a bar that extends down the wrench shaft to contact the spring. The bar is pinned, and pivots, just below the head. The bar pivots based on the combined force of the spring, the reaction torque applied to the head and the reaction *force* that is applied to the head. It is hard to describe in words but if you isolate that part of the mechanism and think about the forces involved then it is clearer. The calibration of a "clicker" wrench of this type is, therefore, dependent on the magnitude of the force applied to the wrench and the torque (that same force times the distance at which it is applied). If the magnitude of the reaction force changes because the distance changed, even if the torque=force X length value is the same, then the "click" won't happen at the same torque. I'll now have to go experiment with my small collection of cheap beam and clicker torque wrenches to observe this effect for myself first hand. Props again to Shane Conley for making this video.
Very insightful analysis. I was really hoping he would explain this in the video. In my mind I didn't think it would matter where your hand was located since the force on the head would experience the same torque regardless. However you're right; the pivot mechanism in the handle depends on this "reaction force" you are describing.
Theory wise, it does not matter where you place your hand. But the hand placement DOES matter, it prevents you from accidentally over torquing your wrench. If the torque wrench was built in a perfect world, then the hand placement might not matter.. but it is not. Keep up the good work.
Theory wise, a torque wrench is a lever, the longer the lever is, the more leverage you get. Shane does a great job of illustrating that. Granted, moving your hand a couple inches in or out is not going to make a huge difference, but it will make a difference. Just like it says in the instructions: place your hand in the middle of the grip for the best accuracy.
What I meant was the force applied. The click mechanism of a torque wrench does not care where you place you your hands. It simply clicks after a certain amount of torque is applied. Torque can be calculated τ = FxD assuming a perpendicular force applied to the wrench. formulas.tutorvista.com/physics/torque-formula.html I do agree that placing your hand in the middle of the grip provides for best accuracy, since placing it elsewhere can induce human error and overexertion of force which will result in too much torque applied.
The way that a torque wrench is designed, the amount of force required to cause it to click will change as the distance from the fastener changes. (You can see that in the demonstration that Shane provided.) In other words, it will take less force to make the torque wrench click if the force applied to the wrench is at the very end of the torque wrench. Yes, internally at the "click pivot" the torque is the same, but not at the "fastener pivot." Remember that point at which the torque wrench pivots when it clicks is not the same as the point that the fastener is turning.
Remember that the torque applied to the fastener is a combination of the torque applied at the Click Pivot and the Fastener Pivot. The Click Pivot may not change with hand position, but the Fastener pivot does when you change hand positions.
Joe Smith has no idea what he's talking about. The leverage you get at the handle allows you to easily maintain the force applied to the wrench as it clicks. Because the force is greater at the shorter length(closer to the wrench head), it makes it harder for you to let go of the pressure at the exact moment the wrench clicks ...so you tend to overtorque. I bet if he used one of those manual torque wrenches with the needle, this whole thing could be easily explained.
Ok, I get that your hand position affects the torque, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around WHY. The "click" is set off by the amount of twisting force on the bolt. Moving your hand or adding an extension shouldn't affect this. The only thing it does is require more or less force on the handle. Torque wrenches aren't measuring the force on the handle, so how does this affect the torque reading? Please help!
I wish I could help on "why" nut I cannot. I'm demonstrating and "trusting" the manufactures very specific operating procedures. Although I am curious at many little details too my friend, this one has not consumed me. If you ever get an answer please feel free to share. Please Use New Email: how2wrench@gmail.com if ever needed! I do offer personal service to back up what's missing from a video to actually fix your specific problem. I do work on donations for my time and possible research. Good news is its CHEAP! For my time would mind becoming a member of my website? It comes with a free 20 mins of techline and that will cover my time to assist you so we both benefit. So to have me personal cell phone number to put in your phone as your direct info and how to coach, sign up now! As always thank you and enjoy the free videos! Much more to come! I look forward to working with you and hope you will become a member of or learning community. Link to membership: how2wrench.com/product/membershipmembers-onlymembers? If I can ever be of service to you, here is a video explains how to connect with me. ua-cam.com/video/vjvmB01ebcs/v-deo.html Direct link to services: how2wrench.com/product-category/tech-lineservice-callminutes/ Live Chat is great for you to actually show your specific issue! Donation link: www.paypal.me/how2wrench
Shane,can u please make video how to calibeate torque w. without that expensive machine? And also use Nn please. We in Europe use Nm,we dont understund ft.
Shane, these are awesome videos mate, and you're most correct in your observations here. I'm not a mechanical engineer however have some experience there and engineer in the electronics end of things. The issue with the click style torque wrenches is that they have a torque mass from the preloader that is a known factor given the handle and how it is being held, and if you change that (essentially what is an acoustic property) it gets a bit ugly at that point. Your spot check device given the modern electronics will be metering this well, and damping ringing, it wont be getting it wrong. The mass of the extension is damping the excitation as opposed to the short hand hold you initially showed allowing the rest of the torque wrench to act as a tuning fork, so in that one resonant flick over-steering your torque intention. What would be rather interesting to see is how metal on metal in the extension compares to the padding you used to display the property. Well done best regards, Tom.
C'mon man, you're overthinking this. It's not some subtle resonant frequency impedance matching thing. Rather, it's simply geometry. Think of it like this - if you were to grab right at the pivot where the head attaches to the wrench, the wrench would never click no matter how hard you pull. In other words you'd apply infinite torque, regardless of the wrench setting. As you move your hand toward the grip the torque becomes finite but still higher than the wrench setting. When you reach the grip the torque is finally correct. Continue past the grip (with a handle extension) and the torque will be less than the wrench setting. The phenomenon is due to the ratio of grip-to-pivot length and grip-to-socket length. That's all it is.
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As a flat rate tech, when I open the box and I expect my tool to be ready to work. Other than that minor complaint about your test subject, your video explains how hand placement affects torque readings.👍👍
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Great question and wish we knew. Shane has responded in the past he did not know the science either but that this (as shown) does make a difference and all torque tool manufactures agree on... You rock! Best way to help us back is joining or grabbing our T-shirt! Support links and gear below! Awesome and thanks for commenting! Smash the subscribe button (thank if already a sub!) Have you seen our "UA-cam Trained Support Shirts? Great way to "high five us" goodfellasmerch.com/collections/how-2-wrench/products/support-shirt Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Just want to say thanks quick to support us for this information and our work saving you money? Give us a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench Got an emergency and your head is about to explode from frustration or fear? Get Shane’s cell here: how2wrench.com/ols/products/techline-one-on-one
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Your video is spot on, and I learned how critical it is to center your hand when using the digital snap-on torque wrenches. The click types are a bit more forgiving because of the “click” mechanism. But every torque wrench I’ve used other than Snap-on has been off by 15-25%. Extensions on the head don’t change the torque. Long sockets vs short sockets don’t change the torque. This is all Newton’s third law. But as far as your videos, they have been terrific and these other people can just straight up go #%^} themselves.
Couple questions, does it matter if you “click” the wrench more than once when the torque is reached? And does holding the head of the wrench to keep it firmly against the bolt/nut affect anything while the other hand is placed on the handle?
Hi friend. I try to answer when I've seen it before, but I don't recognize this one. I’m the Social Media Manager here. That’s a good question for Shane. He gets hundreds of requests a day and starts each day answering MEMBER or donation support questions first and then if there is time he will try to circle back before heading to the shop for customer work. Want faster response times? Join link below. Thank you for commenting. Want more benefits? -Daily MEMBER FIRST COMMENTS ANSWERED FIRST -Live Q/A video chats -Wonder if we have a video on your need? Members can request content links! -Full Access to the ENTIRE 700 video library -Member-Only FREE tool giveaways Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin Just want to say thanks quick to support us for this information and our work saving you money? Give us a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench
Ah no worries you could give some people a million dollars and they would complain. I really enjoy and often share your videos with fellow riders. My question is, if your torque wrench is off as you demonstrated with the one, is there anything that can be done to the wrench? Or do you just mark the tool with a paint pen, as being off by "X" amount.
Love your videos man. You are very informative and passionate about what you do but of course haters are gonna hate, don't mind them. Thank you so much for sharing it all with us! Your an amazing person, don't forget it!
There are some good videos that explain why hand position matters in click style wrenches. As a Mechanical Engineer the static torque equations are interesting. But, the end story is that the ratio between the distance from hand placement to pivot point and distance from pivot point to socket head center needs to remain constant. Since the distance from the pivot point to the socket head is constant, so must the distance from hand to pivot point be. That’s the ratio engineers use to calibrate the spring to the settings.
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I had been looking for this information all over the internet but found it only here. Thank you so much. The Dremometer range of torque wrenches from GEDORE claim to be length independent. Do you have any idea? Thank you again!
To my understanding ALL tq wrenches are... We sure love you taking the time to comment and subbing. Are you coming to the next live session? There a few ways you could help keep this work going and stay connected with me personally. 1. Join this channel to get access to perks: ua-cam.com/channels/BhM8DCKnT3qXwTW0eToyCg.htmljoin 2. Give us a high 5 here: www.paypal.me/how2wrench Keep Wrenching, Shane Conley Peoria, AZ USA
Shane, I've gotten in the bad habit, sometimes without realizing it, of grabbing the torque wrench with both hands. While my right hand is properly placed on the handle, I tend to also support the tool with my left hand by placing it somewhere around halfway between the tip and the bottom. Would that also affect any reading? Thanks, and keep up the great work!!
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This video is absolutely correct because the clicker torque wrench mechanism doesn't measure torque at the socket - it actually measures at the pivot where the ratchet head attaches to the tool's shaft. The torque at the socket is greater than the torque at the pivot due to the added length from pivot to socket - so to correct for this the torque wrench scale is "doctored" with a correction factor to produce the right torque at the socket.
The correction factor is a ratio: (distance from grip to socket)/(distance from grip to pivot). The problem is, this ratio changes as you move your grip position - from 1.00 (with an infinite handle extension) to infinity (if you were to grab right at the pivot). On my Craftsman wrench I measured this ratio to be about 1.09, which is probably typical.
So depending on where you grab, your torque can vary from 9% too low all the way up to infinite torque. The only place where the correction factor is accurate is right at the center of the hand grip. So be sure to grab it there. If you need to use both hands, put one on top of the other to keep all the force applied to the grip..
Every torque wrench manual I've read says you must grip the tool at the hand grip only, but none explain why this is. Now you know.......
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i just watched a 12 minute video explaining that with math (whitch i didnt understand) and then you just come here and expain it to me within 20 sekunds and 1 sentence, thx for the easy explanation
EDITED!!
Stuff is called length dependency or lever sensitivity. It is because "click" style torque wrench have secondary pivot point somewhere in the middle of the shaft (depends on the wrench). So whole torque measuring process is happening at this "secondary pivot" point. Therefore distance from this point to the socket works as an extension. So when hand is placed closer to the "secondary pivot" point it requires more force to achieve set torque resulting with more force being applied to "extension".
It took me 20min to research. ;)
Great video! Thanks!
Original post below
Watching it in slow-mo. at 0.25 speed.
At short distance, after torque wrench "clicked" you kept applying force. Reading value "jumped" after click! So although set "click" force was accurate, additional "unwanted" force caused by poor control increased reading.
Those "click" torque wrenches are designed to "click" at set torque. And it does not matter if large torque is applied at short distance or little torque it applied at long distance ;)
It is more about control. As pressing hard on short handle makes it more difficult to stop once set value is reached ;)
More accurate test would be
Clamp long bar to the torque wrench and use pull scale at different distances. Calculate pull-force required to achieve desire torque and do multiple distances. As you go further away, the pull force will reduce but wrench will keep clicking at set value.
It is important that extension bar is clamped - otherwise reading will be "shakey" ;)
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To those who wonder why, there is an explanation here: www.engineersedge.com/manufacturing_spec/torque_wrench_1.htm
This type of "click" wrench has indeed a lever/fulcrum mechanism inside the shaft (see wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_wrench#/media/File:Direct_pawl_clicker_torque_concept.png ).
So, the mechanism can be simplified as this:
T2 T1 F
| | |
| | v
o-------o------------|====
A force "F" is applied on the handle, at the length "L2".
The setting of the torque wrench actually sets T1; it is the torque at which the fulcrum will buckle (and produce the "click" noise). The bolt will be torqued at T2.
If you take the equations:
T1 = F * L2
T2 = F * (L1 + L2)
You want T2 a function of T1 and the length of the hand on the shaft, which is L2 (because this is actually where the bolt is, not T1, remember): you then replace F with either T1 or T2 and you have:
T2/(L1 + L2) = T1/L2 and so
T2 = ((L1 + L2) * T1)/L2
L1 is fixed, because it is inside the shaft (take a look back at the wiki diagram).
Basically, that means that the torque at the bolt (T2) will NOT be the same for a specific setting (T1, set on the wrench) if the force is applied at different place on the shaft. It looks like the function f(x) = 1/x.
You can pick fixed numbers for L1 and T1, calculate few "points" for T2 (depending on differents L2) and draw a diagram: it will all make sense :)!
You can see an example here:
zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=21/12/45lf.png
You see that for a fixed torque set on the wrench (T1), the "output" torque seen by the bolt (T2) really depends on the spot where you apply the force on the handle (L2). That is why it is important to correctly handle the wrench, where the manufacturer tells you to. This is because at this specific point, this is the correct "ratio" where the set torque on the wrench will actually be the one applied to the bolt.
Appreciate you ...🙌
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Thank you so much for this comment. Your explanations along with the wikipedia image give me a better idea of how these things work.Very much appreciate you taking the time.
This needs to be on top 👍
Hey you are great teacher that took your time and showed it better than anyone explains verbally for me. I watched a video drawing erasing calculating but he made me confused but your script is enough without any calculation.
dont worry about the haters dude cause youre helping so many people in places you've probably never been thanks mr conley
I’m a structural engineer (1980). The torque measurement mechanism is specifically designed for a consistent load application point. This obviously is the handle. There is more complexity going on in the measuring devise than appears to a simple observation. These forces of shear, axial, force couple, angle of force application, rotational torsion, gear friction, thread friction, variable stiffness spring constant and other characteristics are affected by the force application location. The handle works!
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@@petethewrist Not True. In fact if you have the complete formula you can calculate what the error will be for any hand position which matches the tested values. It's hard to understand it but it absolutely is a fact, hand position matters. The best explanation I've seen is the vid "Why GRIP Position on Torque Wrenches MATTERS!" by The Bike Sauce who breaks it down.
Best technical training channel on UA-cam hands down. Keep Wrenchin!
I know its an old video, but had to comment. The outer tube flexes, this is taken into account when the wrench is calibrated. The trip mechanism is about half way down the tube, if you manipulate the tube in any way, ie putting pressure on it in a way that differs from hoe it was calibrated you'll affect how it trips.
I don't know if the handle flexes significantly, I suspect the answer is "no". But that's not the issue. Even if the handle were perfectly rigid the torque will still vary depending on where you place your hand. It may not be intuitive but it's definitely true. Dust off your high school geometry and trig skills and see for yourself.
The reason for the higher numbers when you grip only part way up the handle is easy- almost no one can react fast enough to release their pressure on the handle before reaching the end of the stroke after it clicks, which will produce a higher torque reading. It has nothing to do with the torque wrench itself.
Wrong. It has everything to do with where you place your hand. If you can't react fast enough to stop pulling when the wrench clicks, you'd get excessive torque even if you hold the wrench properly. It's a matter of geometry, not reaction time.
One of the best channels out there. I'm a powersports student and I watch your videos all the time to supplement what I get at school. Thanks and keep up the good work.
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shane, your videos have helped me out so much, you are a great teacher,i always look forward to them.
Great video! In a recent discussion with my engineering and technician colleagues, no one was believing me that it was important to hold a clicker type torque wrench at the proper location. I pulled out your video and it made believers out of everyone. A little retraining and all’s good. Thanks!
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Fantastic! I'd have never have guessed it would have mattered so long as it clicked. Without seeing this I would have been sure it wouldn't have mattered, thanks
Shane you help me with so much threw my mechanic career. I'm only 15 and all your videos on your little tips help me a lot with saving money in the long run and just overall helping me. I am still wanting to go to a motorcycle mechanic college and yours seems great. I might see you in a couple of years. Who knows!
Dear Shane, I am a fellow teacher (different profession!) watching your channel from a half a world away. Rarely have I seen someone giving of themselves so freely as you do purely to help your students and pass down your knowledge and skills to others. I also note the generous "Creative Commons" licence you offer on your videos.
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Thank you again Richard C. We should connect. Just read this comment again years later.
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hand placement does affect the effective torque on the clicker wrenches, and it's because of the different side forces (non torsional force) that result when it's being applied closer or further away from the pivot. When the force is being applied close to the pivot, there's greater amounts of friction on the pivot, which will tend to impede the rotation at the pivot, and cause the click to occur later, and increase the effective torque. Similarly, when the pushing from the far end, less of that side force is exerted on the pivot, and consequently less friction on the pivot, so it'll tend to click sooner, having less impediment to the rotation.
Nope. It has nothing to do with friction. Even if the pivot is perfectly frictionless, the torque will still vary depending on where you place your hand. It's a matter of geometry, not friction.
One thing that I cannot seem to find any videos or anything about, that I am super curious about but I don't have any super expensive and really accurately calibrated machines like you guys would. Couple of days here in Iowa the low temperature has been below zero degrees Fahrenheit with a wind-chill of around -25°F to -30°F. Now, I have a very basic understanding of how torque wrenches work internally and also have an understanding of how metals can expand and contract from hot and cold temperatures. So even though my being out here in the garage with thermals and coveralls or my heated hoodie may keep me nice and warm and thanks for keep my brain thinking straight and calibrated. How do the cold temperatures in the garage affect the spring inside of my torque wrench? For example my torque wrench which could be perfectly accurate down to the fraction of a percent during the summer when it was calibrated, now that the climate has changed from being a hundred degrees to below 0 degrees how does that affect the condition of this spring inside the torque wrench? I'm sure it has to even if it is very minut, I'm sure it has to have some kind of effect on the accuracy of the tool
Very good video.
I am an Engineer and have watched a few of your videos to date. You are 100% about handling the torque wrench in the center. One thing I want to add is how to pull the wrench. You should not push down on a torque wrench. You should pull the wrench with your hand positioned in the center. This allows you to control the motion and stop at the click. Also, as the fastener tightens, you need to slow down until the wrench clicks. This ensures you do not overtravel.
You nailed the 25 lbs.-ft once in your video. Try again and avoid pushing down on the wrench. Pull it towards you, as you tighten, to observe how the torque is attained close to your setpoint.
You have a great channel and are an excellent instructor (and your videos are spot on). This is something I wanted to add since pulling towards you, rather than pushing, allows you to control the clamping force and stretch the fastener more effectively. More often, pushing usually gets you over the target torque.
Keep up the good work!!
Well thank you! We will share this with Shane directly in Fridays meeting!
You rock for commenting! We encourage experience and well wrote out comments like yours Bryon.
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Good evening.
I just watched this video (4-29-17).
I find you to be an excellent tech and instructor. I would urge you to ignore those with small minds.
Keep On Wrenching!!
I just found your channel. This was the first video of yours I clicked on. I’m so glad I did. Don’t worry about those that snipe at us content creators. We have a UA-cam channel to help others and most are appreciative. Focus on them! I am a new subscriber now and the bad part is now I have to take my whole day and watch all your stuff. Hahaha. Keep up the good work!
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I'm a retired physicist and a gear head who really likes these videos. Back when I was teaching Mechanics physics courses in college I would have loved to have done this problem in deriving the relationship between the applied force, the application point, the pivot distances, the compression force of the spring and the shear force at the cam point. The applied torque is scaled to the spring force through a ratio of the pivot distances and some other constants. This simple linear relationship only holds when the pivot distances are constant, what the manufacturer established.
It's hard to understand it but it absolutely is a fact, hand position matters. The best explanation I've seen is the vid "Why GRIP Position on Torque Wrenches MATTERS!" by The Bike Sauce who breaks it down.
The difficulty people seem to be having is that they don't realize the wrench isn't measuring torque at the center of the fastener/socket. Or they have never thought through the consequences of that fact.
This kind of torque wrench doesn't know the torque on the fastener. It just reacts to the torque at the clicker mechanism (various designs exist) that is hidden inside the handle. Because the clicker is closer to your hand than the fastener is, it will feel a smaller torque than the fastener.
But that's okay, because those two torques are mathematically related. And by calibrating the clicker properly, the fastener torque will be correct.
If the clicker is located 80% of the way from the hand grip to the fastener, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80% of the torque setting you choose. But the fastener (since it is all the way at the end of the wrench) feels a torque equal to 100% of the set torque. Perfect.
This hypothetical torque wrench will always have the same 80:100 ratio between clicker torque and fastener torque. But ONLY if your hand stays in the correct position. Let's see why...
Imagine you move your hand so the clicker is perfectly equidistant between your hand and the fastener. This means that the clicker is now located 50% of the way from your hand to the fastener, and the real torques will have a 50:100 ratio.
If you set your wrench for 100 ft-lbs/Nm/etc, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80. But since your hand position has made the actual ratio 50:100 (i.e. 1:2), the torque at the faster will be 80x2 = 160! You've just severely over-torqued your fastener.
Likewise, imagine you extend the handle so your wrench is twice as long, and place your hand at the end. The clicker will now be 90% of the way from your hand to the fastener, and the real torques will have a 90:100 ratio.
If you set your wrench for 100 ft-lbs/Nm/etc, then the clicker will activate when it feels 80. But since your hand position has made the actual ratio 90:100 (i.e. 9:10), the torque at the faster will be 80x(10/9)=88.89! You've just under-torqued your fastener.
If your torque wrench is the kind that measures torque at the fastener, then you don't have to worry about hand placement. The ratio between measured torque and fastener torque is 1:1.
But if your wrench works like most click-style wrenches, then hand position absolutely does matter.
Really very good and clear explanation!! Thanks.
That was really useful. I kind of knew already that hand position is important when using a torque wrench. It gets messy and confusing enough anyway for students (and the rest of us supposed professionals) when learning how to calculate torque correctly when using the approved attachments each tool company provides. Not handling the wrench properly just makes it impossible to do accurate work. Your empirical approach gives irrefutable evidence that hand position is pretty critical when using these very precise wrenches. These companies invest a lot of money researching and testing and finally manufacturing a reliable, and trustworthy piece of equipment. We need to honour that commitment to quality by using their tools as they were designed to be used. I am now a new subscriber. Two thumbs up !!!
I throughly enjoy your channel. I can tell that you enjoy teaching.........Your doing a great job! Remember hater will hate--------that's what they do!
Be honest with ya, I was about to torque down a rocker box on my motorcycle and realized that my torque wrench was too tall with a step down and socket so I thought I’d put on an extension, but realize that I’m adding torque length for an 18-25 ft. Lbs. then I seen one of your other videos about if it’s 90 degrees off the extension then it will cancel it’s self off. Thanks for the educational videos man. You’re right, there’s many jerks and haters out there. I appreciate the education. Keep it going. Shared knowledge like this helps us slow joes smile when we get our vehicles running in decent condition. So, educational knowledge applied makes mechanics smile!!!
Shane,
I see where controversy might be originating from... people might be thinking/assuming that this click-style torque wrench works ideally based on moment about a point M= f * d (where M- moment, f-force applied, and d- perpendicular distance from the axis to the line of action of the force). So in ideal world with ideal torque wrench that only "sees"(measures) moment(torque) at the a point it should "click" no matter where you apply the force from(following rules form above); obviously you would have to apply more or less force with decreased or increased distance respectively. However, this "click" type of torque wrenche has a mechanism that seems to be based on a specific deflection point on the arm. In other words the mechanism requires you to apply force at a specific range of a distance for it to be within acceptable parameters per-design. Something along the lines of cantilever beam and how it deflects in the middle of the beam if force is applied at the unsupported end. I would suggest to try and contact a Snap-on engineer and see if they can give a simple explanation how the mechanism actually works... this should help clear up the controversy.
What this looks like is a good example of difference between theory and real-world application where tools do not follow theory in all ranges of possible applications.
You can explore all of the theory for yourself if you watch some videos or get some engineering books regarding Statics or sign up for a class at the local college/university. Also, after statics you might like to look at Mechanics of Materials or Mechanics of Solids which builds up on Statics but applies material properties (deflections, stress, strains, shear and etc.) and Dynamics.
Hope this helps.
I'm a mechanical engineer with over 25 years of experience and absolutely love your channel. You have a good delivery and very clearly enjoy what you do.
I've always been perplexed about the hand placement is important claim regarding torque wrenches. For the life of me, I can't think of a scientific reason why it would make a difference where you apply the load to the arm provided one stops pushing the instant the wrench clicks. The releasing pivot knows nothing of where or how the load is being applied to the handle.
I'm wondering of the answer lies in how quickly a human (you) can react when the click occurs. Typically we apply a force until the click happens. The click releases the force being delivered to the fastener and provides a cue to the operator to stop pushing. If you hold the handle and apply a force and react super sllllooowwlllyyy after the click happens, you will continue to apply additional force.
I'm sure the release pivot has a certain angle that it deflects when the desired torque is reached. For the sake of discussion, lets assume it's 5 degrees. This means that the release pivot releases the head by 5 degrees when the set torque is reached. In the instant the head releases, a trained mechanic 'knows' to stop pushing. If they stop pushing before the handle of the wrench rotates more than 5 degrees, no additional torque is applied to the fastener. If they are slow and continue to push, the release head will still be bent the five degrees and additional torque will be applied to the fastener.
I suspect the designers of the wrench know how much release deflection angle is required to allow a mechanic ample time to stop pushing when the click happens while holding the handle in the recommended spot.
I would like to see the test performed again while taking the above information into consideration. Not a criticism at all but it appeared that you reacted with normal reaction time while holding the wrench close to the fastener which resulted in a high reading. I would love to see a data log of the applied torque versus time. I would bet it increased steadily, released and then went up again during your reaction time resulting in the high reading.
I wonder if AvE has ever tackled this subject.
Keep in mind that a click type torque wrench has two pivot points. The point of fastener rotation and the point that the wrench moves when it clicks.
The point that a torque wrench moves when it clicks should always correspond with the torque wrench setting and shouldn’t be affected by hand placement. The point of fastener rotation is a combination of the click pivot torque and the entire wrench torque from hand grip to fastener pivot point.
If you move your hand toward the pivot points, more hand pressure will be required to get the “click pivot” to click for a given torque setting due to a shorter lever. So the click pivot torque is the same. But, the fastener pivot is the sum of torque applied to both pivots, which has been changed by moving the hand position toward the pivot points and applying greater force in order to get the “click pivot” to click at a given torque setting.
So, when you change hand position, you are not changing the torque at the “click pivot”, but you are changing the torque at the fastener pivot.
@@Joesmith-pl4qb I realise this video and your post are a few years old but thank you for this explanation Joe.
Hi Shane.I took up your offer and watched this re-do video.
Two things that i noted after watching this video.
First, your correct test using a Torque Wrench. ( No 68 Thumbs Up)
Second, Is difficult to cater to all taste when posting videos on UA-cam.
I found your channel via the word Snap-on.
As i was watching a few different videos about Snap-on Tools and yours came up demonstrating the correct use of a Torque Wrench.
I walked right into the middle of a war between Yourself and Alex.( LOL)
As mentioned in a previous comment i totally understand your position.
After watching this video i find that your channel is very informative and helpful to your viewers and you take a very open minded approach to the comments that you receive good or bad which is very important when building a channel.
I guess this is a total revoke of my earlier comments about you as the previous video was my first time watching your channel.
The only right thing to do now is become a Subscriber ( No 9273)
All the best and talk / comment soon
Regards Peter.
Peter CCR ENG thank you for the message....detailed, funny and enjoyable
i love your video you and the passion you have to improve quality of every bike mechanic keep doing what you are doing man Thank you
Another great and helpful video. Thanks and keep doing what you are doing. You are providing a great service to a lot of us here in youtube land.
I cant even express how much Ive learned from this channel! Keep on wrenchin!!!
Hey man I really hope that you don't continue to get discouraged by people's negative comments, because what you're doing is helping people. And I for one absolutely completely grateful for you man, you got to remember you too and the comment section gives absolutely everybody and anybody of voice whether they're 16 years old and they think it's funny just to say stupid crap or whether or not they've ever even picked up a tool in their life, when you see comments that are just ridiculous coming up to that man there just ridiculous they're probably uneducated they're probably young even if they're not young either way they're obviously less than intelligent and it doesn't even matter dude you're helping people PERIOD
Hello John. Thank you for taking the time to write the kind note. It's hard to believe this video is 5 years old. And you hit it on the head. Back then I was thinking about giving up. Sure glad I was inspired all these years by positive people like you....Keep Wrenching my friend...If ever in Phoenix, come stop by...Shane
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people are insane. it's impossible to try to make sense of what people do. I have left some comments elsewhere that I regret now. I see both sides but lean toward the positive now. Nice video. I wish I had that machine.
I have watched every one of your videos that I have found and have learned something useful every time. Keep posting and I will keep watching and learning, and hopefully one day I can have a fraction of the knowledge you have !
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Wow! I've been an auto mechanic going on 16 years and never knew hand placement was so important. Granted, I can't recall any time where I haven't used the grip (because that's the whole purpose of a grip - a place to grab) but it's really cool to see how much of an effect wrong handling can have. I knew about extensions and adapters changing the final value but never thought about grip. While I tend to follow service or use instructions anyway, the additional proof via actual data is the icing on the cake. I know I can fix something if I follow the manufacturer procedures, but I also know I didn't engineer the damned contraptions I fix and therefore have no business ignoring what the engineers tell me to do. Love your work, man. Don't let the haters get you down - they rely on yip-yap and shortcut guesswork while you have the direct support of engineers. Anonymity makes idiots and jerks far braver than they would be while face to face. Keep it up!
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Shane forget about the haters. There will always be keyboard warriors that just yap and can’t prove anything. Just cause “I’ve done it that way for years and never had a problem” doesn’t necessarily mean they can back up their statements with any science. Keep up the great videos!
Trolls are going to hate. People criticize what they do not understand. Mr. Conley, please keep doing what you are doing. Don't change a thing.
Great response Shane! I m a scientist and I agree on the different position that effect variable forces even though the pivoting point is set to a tolerance. This is physics but a lot deeper than basic fundamentals. Thanks for sharing and my community appreciate your work.
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Great attitude and demonstration. Great Teacher!
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Love the videos! Keep on wrenching! Don't worry what others say. Some like to bring people down instead of lifting them up.
thanks again for the info. I over torqued my clutch pressure plate bolts because i had my wrench set wrong had to extract the broken end from the basket, which was a job on its own. awesome videos thanks you!
Screw the people that do not want to listen and learn. That's why they are idiots today. Keep up the good work. I have been in mechanics for years and love to watch your channel. Thanks
Awesome videos. Just found your channel a couple of weeks ago and I'm loving all the tips. Can't wait to watch all the other playlist. Don't let the negative nancys get to you. Keep the videos coming
Thank you! Please share on your social media! Make sure to subscribe and click the notifications button for all future videos! Also, my playlists are broken down pretty well. The most popular one being: "Every Mechanic Should Know This"
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Hi Shane I’m a fellow biker from England and have a lot of time for you keep doing what you’re doing you can’t buy what you’re doing so keep at it and I will support you in any way possible keep biking 🏍👍
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As usual, great job. And thanks for sharing. Don't let others get you down
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Thanks for this video. I wasn't aware of this, it will change my torque wrench use, but I have to admit that it still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the click mechanism is out at the end of the wrench, what does it care where rest of the wrench is being pushed on? So 100 ft pounds is 100 pounds at 12" from the pivot. Same as 50 pound 24" from the pivot or 200 pounds 6" out. Right? Recently I was torquing some very small bolts to 30 inch pounds and I choked up on the handle because it was such a small force. Certainly the handle wasn't flexing at all, so how does that make me over torque? To be clear, I'm not arguing at all, just trying to learn why. Again, thanks for the info.
Glad it helped! You rock for commenting! We will let Shane know! Shane doesn't pretend to be an engineer but trusts that ALL torque wrench manufactures train and stand behind this. That's the best answer we can supply as to "why". Honestly wish we knew the science and engineering behind it but I've heard Shane say to students "why fight good practice" you're better off spending your time getting better at electrical skills...lol...little joke he makes with them...
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Thanks for your posts. I learn from your presentations and I have an extreme amount of experience. I say, "never to old to learn". I subscribed to your channel because of what you are presenting and how you present it. As for the idiots you get, they are everywhere on the internet. For every one of them there are thousands who learn. Please don't get discouraged and don't give these guys the time of day. Your time is best spent, putting out good information to those who want to learn. 14 motorcycles in my life time and my latest is a modified by me 2010 FLSTFB Lo.
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Great video. Don't worry about those who failed their physics course (or never had one).
While it is true that hand placement on torque wrench handle is important, there is a little bit more to the issue than that. Click style torque wrenches will click at different torque, while set to the same torque setting, if the speed of moving the handle is altered. The difference in this torque consistency is smaller on expansive wrenches than on cheaper wrenches. Having your hand closer to the drive, puts more force on your hand, so you move the wrench slower and creep up to the click, resulting in higher torque at the click. Using extension allows you to use less force, so you move faster and wrench clicks sooner than intended. Why am I saying this? To point out that not only the hand placement, but the actual technique is important with click style wrenches. Overall, I totally agree about the haters, if you ignore them, eventually they will go away.
@petethewrist it is not about what the clutch knows, it is about how fast your hand is moving.
@petethewrist agreed, but according to my testing of cheap click style wrenches the speed can cause up to 10% variance. Not a big deal in many cases, but user should be aware.
I do not understand how the drive end can tell the difference. But your test shows it does. Wouldn't have believed it otherwise, but now I want to know why it makes a difference since you would think the drive end would always click at the same set torque every time regardless of the amount of leverage on the other end.
I just searched it, replying to my comment one minute later. It has to do with the bending of the wrench itself. The wrench is measuring the amount of bending happening and clicks when x amount of bending should occur at x amount of torque. Choking up on the handle will decrease the amount of bending and going further back increases the bending. It all makes perfect sense now.
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Think of it like this - if you were to grab right at the pivot where the head attaches, the wrench would never click no matter how hard you pull. In other words you'd apply infinite torque, regardless of the wrench setting. As you move your hand toward the grip the torque becomes finite but still higher than the wrench setting. When you reach the grip the torque is finally correct. Continue past the grip (with a handle extension) and the torque will be less than the wrench setting.
@@LostBeetle Sorry but that's not what's going on. Even at the lowest setting (where the wrench certainly isn't bending!) your hand placement is still important. It's geometry, not bending of the wrench, that causes this. The wrench doesn't bend, for heaven's sake🙄.
Scientifically (theoretically) speaking - this makes no sense. Distance does not matter. 1 pound at 10 feet will produce the exact same torque as applying 10 pounds at 1 foot.
However - your measurements are indisputable as well. My take is that there is something about the way the machine measures that's being thrown off by the increase in downward force you're having to apply when pushing it down up close.
Although I always do, I will keep this in mind when using torque wrenches on my cars. Thanks for the video!
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Yeah, I was thinking about this too. Wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it here. Must have something to do with the clicking mechanism and that torque is still being added after the wrench clicks.
you have a valid point, but you have to put in consideration the way that click wrenches work. Physics remain the same, and you can easily test the machine with a long enough rod and a weight. In all cases shown here, the force is down and equally applied. Whats even more surprising is that the shorter the distance, more torque was produced
The difference is that this torque wrench doesn`t and cannot mesure torque at the faster (square drive) It does so at the pivot point (part that bends when it clicks) And then rely on the ratio of the lenght between the pivot point and the handle\drive to which its calibrated to. An old school solid torque wrench like a dial or needle type would not be affected by hand position since it actually mesure torque at the fastener and does not rely on any handle lenght ratio
Smiley Tactical is correct. The shorter the distance between the socket centre and the ‘click’ mechanism, the less effect hand position will have. Hand position is a non issue for dial types that rely on the twist of a short section of shaft concentric to the socket. Beam style torque wrenches are very sensitive to hand position, so much so that they often have a pivot built into the handle so the force is applied at a specific point.
Another problem I see people do is jerk on the torque wrench after hearing the clicking noise.I stop after hearing the clicking noise.Jerking on it gives a false reading.
If the readings are always over the target that could very well be an issue. If it's lower, then it's not the operator. The problem is there's only a small range of movement between the click point and the stop, unlike the really high range torque wrenches that have a very large release area, and there's much less likelihood of continuing to torque beyond the click release.
could you compare the machine with using the old manual torque wrenches where it shows how much your pulling ?
That's a great idea! Yes I will make a video!
I discovered this channel yesterday when I needed help using Sunex torque adapters. This is excellent information. Could you please show how using a traditional extension(FOR A deep hole) that is 10 inches long affects torque?
Wish he could, but this is a really old video and he no longer has access to the tester. He was hoping to add something to his collection this year.
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Cool video! I’m glad I watched it. I‘m going to guess that as your hand moves up and down the handle it’s altering the angle of the force on the clicker and as a result alters the trigger point. The closer to the clicker you are the more acute the error on that angle is and so the torque error is higher. Makes sense to me!!
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Hi Shane, thanks for this video. I love your channel and I think its the best one I ever watched on teaching people the right way to do things which I love. I never understood why the hand has to be on the handle itself but its very interesting to see the results of this test.
Thanks pal...
Just want to take a moment to thank you for this video. I'm only a novice / home DIY guy but I try to learn how to do things correctly. At some point I read you should hold a torque wrench around the mark on the handle - and lo and behold I found two marks around the handles of my two existing torque wrenches, about where the ring finger rests (so not centred). Now I've just bought a smaller 1/4" for working on bicycles and it doesn't have a mark so I was confused. I started thinking maybe it was a myth anyway since in general if I shorten the distance, I need to increase the force to get the same torque as there's less mechanical advantage of the handle/lever. The inverse is why a longer breaker bar or using a 'cheater pipe' lets us get away with applying less force to undo a stubborn nut or bolt - we're applying that lesser force but over a greater distance, so same amount of total work done - and I figured the torque wrench was measuring that total work and hence maybe hand placement just doesn't matter. Your tester machine shows I was close to convincing myself of something false. I still don't really understand how the torque wrench 'knows' where you're applying force - but I guess your machine doesn't lie :-)
[update - found comment by benhetfield below to be extremely enlightening as to the how & why]
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Keep up the good work man. People will always voice words of little worth. Do you brother.
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just what I was looking for, but one question,
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I wonder if the test would give different results if force were applied to the tool using a mechanical loader (like in a metrology lab), rather than by hand.
I've tried this test on a dial-type wrench and got the exact same reading on the Standard whether force was applied to the center of the handle, 18" extended (a pipe), or 18" closer to the head.
The results are the same using a mechanical loading bench, but the outcome will be different depending on whether the torque wrench mechanism under test is or is not Length Dependent. Some designs are not length sensitive, one such is the usual dial indicating deflecting beam. They can be used with a handle extension, or operated with the hand up towards the head, without changing the accuracy of the torque reading. The same applies to slipping cam wrenches. But common click types and most other beam wrenches deliver wrong torque when operated away from the handgrip.
Shane you actually seem like you're a very nice person. I appreciate people like more than you even realize. There's always gonna be idiots. Man don't even let that shit bother you
I would never had thought that hand placement did change the torque. I believe it now, of course, but I don't understand how it affects the torque. :( Thank you very much btw. One learns every day thx to guys like you.
I think what happens is the force applied and at what position changes the final torque value.
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Great video, way to back up the information that you teach. Keep them coming.
This is the first video I’ve seen. Bummer you get some bad apples. Love this video. It’s non intuitive to think a cheater bar reduces your applied torque! Great to see the example.
I do have a question. I know extensions present issues in applied torque, but my question is you normally have to put your hand on the head of the torque wrench & the other hand on the handle to make sure it doesn’t slip off whatever you’re trying to torque.
Does supporting the head of a torque wrench while the other hand is on the correct spot on the handle effect the applied torque when using an extension & if you’re not using an extension?
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I AM an engineer. I've been a licensed structural engineer for a long time, all we do is work with forces and torques. My father owned a garage for over 60 years so I also know more than a little bit about working on cars including use of torque wrenches. The way the click-type torque wrench works the forces that it is measuring internal to the wrench will vary depending on how you place your hand on the wrench. The click mechanism doesn't know what total torque is being applied to the fastener, it only knows what the internal forces are at its little click mechanism. There are other types of torque wrenches with different internal mechanisms that might be affected differently by hand position, I don't have experience with all of the different types. However your test showed that if you have your hand reasonably on the hand grip it doesn't matter very much. I've found that some torque wrenches vary in accuracy from brand to brand, type to type, and also depending on if you are in the middle of their design operating range or at one of the ends. For most uses I don't think torque settings are as important as we make them out to be but I have also seen situations where a little extra torque on a rod bolt caused it to fail.
don't feed the trolls, I just found this and will come back
You'd think that using an extension on the socket would make for a higher number on the torque reading. That's just what I expected.
why does the gauge show numbers in red and green colour? how does it know the "correct" answer?
edited: just found the answer in another video. The gauge was set on specific number before.
Thanks again brother for all yiu do
Hey I am a backyard mechanic. All these videos free from teachers are awesome. Some people are so smart they are dumb. Forget the negative people.
Thanks for making this video. I think it points out that, once again, one should never take technology for granted. Even the humble torque wrench. Or, perhaps, I should say, the humbling torque wrench.
My take is that to to understand what is going on here you really have to understand both the torque wrench mechanism and exactly how the meter is measuring torque. Mostly the former.
The head of the torque wrench experiences both the applied torque (force times moment arm) and a linear reaction force equal and opposite the force applied to the wrench by the operator. In the demonstration that change in the reaction force affects the wrench's internal mechanism such that the calibration is no longer correct.
An interesting experiment, or thought experiment, would be to apply the torque using a T handle torque wrench (if such a thing existed). Then change the distance of your hands (two hands on the wrench this time!). I suspect in that case the hypothetical T handle torque wrench would be unaffected because the two forces applied to the wrench create a pure moment (i.e. torque) and the net reaction force on the wrench head is zero in all cases where you have your hands applying forces equidistance from the wrench center.
Replying to self... I just looked at some diagrams that show the basic design of a "clicker" torque wrench (see wikipedia). These wrenches have a head that rotates on a bar that extends down the wrench shaft to contact the spring. The bar is pinned, and pivots, just below the head. The bar pivots based on the combined force of the spring, the reaction torque applied to the head and the reaction *force* that is applied to the head. It is hard to describe in words but if you isolate that part of the mechanism and think about the forces involved then it is clearer. The calibration of a "clicker" wrench of this type is, therefore, dependent on the magnitude of the force applied to the wrench and the torque (that same force times the distance at which it is applied). If the magnitude of the reaction force changes because the distance changed, even if the torque=force X length value is the same, then the "click" won't happen at the same torque.
I'll now have to go experiment with my small collection of cheap beam and clicker torque wrenches to observe this effect for myself first hand.
Props again to Shane Conley for making this video.
Very insightful analysis. I was really hoping he would explain this in the video. In my mind I didn't think it would matter where your hand was located since the force on the head would experience the same torque regardless. However you're right; the pivot mechanism in the handle depends on this "reaction force" you are describing.
Theory wise, it does not matter where you place your hand. But the hand placement DOES matter, it prevents you from accidentally over torquing your wrench. If the torque wrench was built in a perfect world, then the hand placement might not matter.. but it is not. Keep up the good work.
Theory wise, a torque wrench is a lever, the longer the lever is, the more leverage you get. Shane does a great job of illustrating that.
Granted, moving your hand a couple inches in or out is not going to make a huge difference, but it will make a difference. Just like it says in the instructions: place your hand in the middle of the grip for the best accuracy.
What I meant was the force applied. The click mechanism of a torque wrench does not care where you place you your hands. It simply clicks after a certain amount of torque is applied. Torque can be calculated τ = FxD assuming a perpendicular force applied to the wrench.
formulas.tutorvista.com/physics/torque-formula.html
I do agree that placing your hand in the middle of the grip provides for best accuracy, since placing it elsewhere can induce human error and overexertion of force which will result in too much torque applied.
The way that a torque wrench is designed, the amount of force required to cause it to click will change as the distance from the fastener changes. (You can see that in the demonstration that Shane provided.) In other words, it will take less force to make the torque wrench click if the force applied to the wrench is at the very end of the torque wrench. Yes, internally at the "click pivot" the torque is the same, but not at the "fastener pivot." Remember that point at which the torque wrench pivots when it clicks is not the same as the point that the fastener is turning.
Remember that the torque applied to the fastener is a combination of the torque applied at the Click Pivot and the Fastener Pivot. The Click Pivot may not change with hand position, but the Fastener pivot does when you change hand positions.
Joe Smith has no idea what he's talking about. The leverage you get at the handle allows you to easily maintain the force applied to the wrench as it clicks. Because the force is greater at the shorter length(closer to the wrench head), it makes it harder for you to let go of the pressure at the exact moment the wrench clicks ...so you tend to overtorque. I bet if he used one of those manual torque wrenches with the needle, this whole thing could be easily explained.
Ok, I get that your hand position affects the torque, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around WHY. The "click" is set off by the amount of twisting force on the bolt. Moving your hand or adding an extension shouldn't affect this. The only thing it does is require more or less force on the handle. Torque wrenches aren't measuring the force on the handle, so how does this affect the torque reading? Please help!
I wish I could help on "why" nut I cannot. I'm demonstrating and "trusting" the manufactures very specific operating procedures. Although I am curious at many little details too my friend, this one has not consumed me. If you ever get an answer please feel free to share.
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Thankyou ! Any ideas of how to tighten up a coil bolt into stripped head threads 2006 Pontiac vibe ?
Shane,can u please make video how to calibeate torque w. without that expensive machine? And also use Nn please. We in Europe use Nm,we dont understund ft.
Shane,
these are awesome videos mate, and you're most correct in your observations here.
I'm not a mechanical engineer however have some experience there and engineer in the electronics end of things.
The issue with the click style torque wrenches is that they have a torque mass from the preloader that is a known factor given the handle and how it is being held, and if you change that (essentially what is an acoustic property) it gets a bit ugly at that point.
Your spot check device given the modern electronics will be metering this well, and damping ringing, it wont be getting it wrong.
The mass of the extension is damping the excitation as opposed to the short hand hold you initially showed allowing the rest of the torque wrench to act as a tuning fork, so in that one resonant flick over-steering your torque intention.
What would be rather interesting to see is how metal on metal in the extension compares to the padding you used to display the property.
Well done best regards,
Tom.
C'mon man, you're overthinking this. It's not some subtle resonant frequency impedance matching thing. Rather, it's simply geometry.
Think of it like this - if you were to grab right at the pivot where the head attaches to the wrench, the wrench would never click no matter how hard you pull. In other words you'd apply infinite torque, regardless of the wrench setting. As you move your hand toward the grip the torque becomes finite but still higher than the wrench setting. When you reach the grip the torque is finally correct. Continue past the grip (with a handle extension) and the torque will be less than the wrench setting.
The phenomenon is due to the ratio of grip-to-pivot length and grip-to-socket length. That's all it is.
Excellent demo!
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Thanks very much for these Videos really good information. Can I ask how much the snap on calibration unit costs
We bought through a grant years ago. I don't recall the price. Here is the company that makes them to my knowledge. www.cditorque.com/
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I knew the position matters but seeing the difference on the digital display was pretty useful
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As a flat rate tech, when I open the box and I expect my tool to be ready to work. Other than that minor complaint about your test subject, your video explains how hand placement affects torque readings.👍👍
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Did you try holding the ratcheting end with the other hand to keep it stable? I wonder if that will make a difference.
Well said Shane. Congrats!
Anyone understand the science behind this. How can the leaver arm charge the value i assumed it worked from the reaction at the bolt?
Great question and wish we knew. Shane has responded in the past he did not know the science either but that this (as shown) does make a difference and all torque tool manufactures agree on...
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Yeah but why? I don't get how it matters? I can see that it does, but don't understand it.
very well knowledge and the source of information based on facts, no question about it. Thank you.
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Your video is spot on, and I learned how critical it is to center your hand when using the digital snap-on torque wrenches. The click types are a bit more forgiving because of the “click” mechanism. But every torque wrench I’ve used other than Snap-on has been off by 15-25%.
Extensions on the head don’t change the torque. Long sockets vs short sockets don’t change the torque. This is all Newton’s third law.
But as far as your videos, they have been terrific and these other people can just straight up go #%^} themselves.
Couple questions, does it matter if you “click” the wrench more than once when the torque is reached? And does holding the head of the wrench to keep it firmly against the bolt/nut affect anything while the other hand is placed on the handle?
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keep it up man. Really good vids.
Ah no worries you could give some people a million dollars and they would complain. I really enjoy and often share your videos with fellow riders. My question is, if your torque wrench is off as you demonstrated with the one, is there anything that can be done to the wrench? Or do you just mark the tool with a paint pen, as being off by "X" amount.
thanks for all the Info ........
had a sea teacher teach us that 12 in lever. if you need 100 ft lb no torke wrench place 100 lb at 12 in on lever should be close. in theory
Love your videos man. You are very informative and passionate about what you do but of course haters are gonna hate, don't mind them. Thank you so much for sharing it all with us! Your an amazing person, don't forget it!
There are some good videos that explain why hand position matters in click style wrenches. As a Mechanical Engineer the static torque equations are interesting. But, the end story is that the ratio between the distance from hand placement to pivot point and distance from pivot point to socket head center needs to remain constant. Since the distance from the pivot point to the socket head is constant, so must the distance from hand to pivot point be. That’s the ratio engineers use to calibrate the spring to the settings.
Thanks for adding your experience to the community Frank.
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Excellent videos keep it going
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I had been looking for this information all over the internet but found it only here. Thank you so much. The Dremometer range of torque wrenches from GEDORE claim to be length independent. Do you have any idea? Thank you again!
To my understanding ALL tq wrenches are...
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Shane, I've gotten in the bad habit, sometimes without realizing it, of grabbing the torque wrench with both hands. While my right hand is properly placed on the handle, I tend to also support the tool with my left hand by placing it somewhere around halfway between the tip and the bottom. Would that also affect any reading? Thanks, and keep up the great work!!
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