Why Kime or Focus Can Actually Make You LESS Effective at Fighting
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 жов 2020
- Kime is a way of training where you snap your punch to a halt, and is a tradition found in almost all Karate and Kung Fu systems. In this video I contend that this is almost completely counterproductive when it comes to using your art in a real fight. And if you have the time please check out my latest book called Nonstop Jiu-Jitsu, now available on Amazon. Links and more info here: www.grapplearts.com/nonstop-j...
- Спорт
This is one of those instances where I sorely wish I could upvote the video more than once. I came up through multiple disciplines which taught kime-esque nonsense. The saddest part is that boxing was one of the first fighting arts I learned (my father taught me boxing, Greco-Roman/freestyle wrestling, and modern Hungarian fencing from as far back as I can remember). I essentially unlearned proper form in favor of bad (through taekwondo, to Goju-ryu karate, and into several Chinese martial arts). I ended up taking an unnecessarily long and damaging road to finally get where I am today. Fortunately, I also had some good experiences in my martial arts path. My instructor for Yoseikan budo would instruct us in the jujutsu version of a technique, before showing us the aikido version of it (usually with a joke about why you should never try to use the aikido version outside of the classroom). On the plus side, I can make a kick through denim and a punch with short sleeves sound like a gunshot, which is totally worth all the joint pain (yay!!!!!).
My Sensei from Goju Ryu Karate said exactly this some weeks ago.
I think that many people have come to this conclusion separately!
You are explaining my experiences from Shotokan karate perfectly.
You know you have a problem when a boxer goes BEDANG, I confirm
Hey Stephan! I really appreciate you addressing this, and I'd like to share some of my thoughts with you on kime.
The first thing I would say is, most people in Karate/Taekwondo/Kung Fu/etc. train poorly. What they do is not realistic, and that's unfortunate. I cannot speak for those people. My focus is on self defense, and that means no monkey business. That said, here is my reply to your video.
To begin, I do not believe your ball demo is representative of good striking - kime or not. The idea of kime is to hit rather than push. In other words, transfer as much momentum as you can over as short a time as you can. Of course, that momentum has to transfer through your target, not stopping on the surface. In your ball example, the belt was an antagonistic force (which you do get when you "stop" your punch). But that stopping happens after you've transferred the momentum, not before or during. You've already hit through your target properly, because you distanced yourself properly, and then the technique ends (and links into another one, hopefully). When you see a Karate punch, the target is not at the knuckles - it's actually before that. Now I know you know how to hit, and that you shouldn't put the brakes on before you've struck through your target. So did the fighters of old who lived in arguably more violent times than we do. Let's give them some credit.
It is my belief that the primary reason for teaching the "stop" at the end is because, in a civilian defense art like Karate, we don't want to miss and be off balance because we threw our weight forward recklessly... and missed. In reality, we should be linking techniques together just like any competent fighter would. Punch to block to limb clear to clinch to forearm strike to ... etc.
As another note, I'm sure you've noticed the BJJ solo drills coming out due to COVID. Many of them show the movements point by point, stopping at certain places. For example, in a simple trap and roll escape, you might drill that by (1) trapping the limbs and then (2) bridging and rolling. That doesn't mean you stop at those points in reality! The same goes with boxing, such as teaching the proper "steps" to throw a hook punch for example. Or, as Iain Abernethy has shown, the steps in a golf swing. Just because the steps are shown step by step doesn't mean you apply them in a rigid, robotic way. To your credit, the majority of martial artists who talk about "kime" do, in fact, practice in that robotic way. Unfortunately.
I'd also like to briefly address your other examples of "not using kime", because you actually are! In your log example, you say that you don't freeze part way through the log, but instead cut through the log. You're right - and kime teaches to focus all your momentum into a small target, over as short a time as possible, through the target. In that example, it would likely be the stump underneath the log. You wouldn't try to put the axe blade on the log and press into it to cut it would you? No, you'd hit through it. That is what kime should be teaching students. Whether their instructors make that clear or not is another matter. Additionally, if you miss the log and hit the stump, you don't get punched in the head because you were off balance. In your nail example, the same applies. You don't have to worry much about missing and being off balance, and you focus your momentum through the target anyway - just like with kime.
Finally, you are not, as you say, focusing your power at the surface of the target. That is wrong, wrong, wrong - and I mean wrong mechanically. If someone is doing that, their distance is wrong, regardless of the "kime" they express. They are practicing missing, and that is a training error. In short, there should be no difference between the boxing punch and the Karate punch in application. You hit hard, with good body structure and without compromising your balance, and continue into other motions.
I suppose we could argue over the use of the "hikite", or hand at the hip, but that's probably best left for another video.
Thanks again Stephan, hope you're well!
thks for making this,i've been wondering for a long time
My understanding of kime is its simply about not sacrificing your balance. Unless you're at the sharp end of professional combat sport, the truth is, in the heat of a vigorous sparring round, let alone the stress of a real confrontation, most strikes miss. You see this all the time in bar brawls. Trouble is, if you really commit, then miss, you can end up off balance. Probably why most bar brawls end up on the floor. Karate and such instills in us that we can still commit, but to do so from a, solid structure so that if we miss, or if the opponent catches our strike, we can immediately do something else other than flail around like a rag doll. That said, that's the defence of it out the way, I have seen and trained with people who are more concerned with style than substance. They'll throw a technique, they miss, but they leave it there for what seems like ages. I think its also an issue when combined with light contact sparring, where people unintentionally become programmed to pull their strikes. Overall I think it's a good ingredient in the mix, but I think it needs to be backed by hard striking practice on bags and pads.
This is by far my favourite video that you made. A couple days ago I was practicing my punches and kicks with and without kime (I even threw a hyperextended punch which was pretty painful), and you were one hundred percent correct on everything.
Interesting video ;)
It depends on the striking surface, and the target as to which type of delivery you want to use (there are many types). Think of getting ketchup out of a bottle: You accelerate it and suddenly stop. Or in a car, when you brake sharply and create a 'whiplash effect'. In Chinese martial arts it's called 'Ging' (You were demonstrating some Hung Gar, so I am using Cantonese) You are not correct to say that it does not exist in Tai Chi. It is called 'Fajin' and is a major part of the training at the advanced stages. If I may use some examples from Boxing or MMA: The power delivery of a snappy jab, is mechanically different from an overhand right, or a round kick which use more "follow through" - this is for tactical reasons as well as biomechanical. Not 'Bro Science' ;) You do not throw a dart the same as you would throw a javelin. The intent is to compress the kinetic energy of the body into a small point. If you were to hit a heavy bag with boxing gloves on- 'follow through' power is of course the most powerful expression. If you were hitting a nail with a hammer you would not just swing through- you would use 'just the appropriate amount' of follow through. There is such a thing as a 'dead blow hammer' which enables force to be transmitted in a longer time frame which results in less damage to the object struck. Basically Fajin is the exact opposite of this: A reduction in the time frame for force transmission creating more damage- but to a smaller area. All accomplished craftsmen will use something like this. Even using an axe (as in your example), still requires an isometric tightening of the core at the moment of impact. Too early and you lose power, too late and the forces scatter, rather than efficiently going into the cut. This is the purpose for all those repetitions: Watch a novice use a hammer, saw or axe and compare to a master craftsman. That is what 'Kung Fu' actually means- practised skill. What I do agree with you is that people fixate on the 'snappy sound' and way overdo the tension. This is for aesthetic reasons and is quite wrong. Real Ging/Kime/Fajin can be seen in the axeman's effortless chop, a boxer's crisp jab, a wrestler's 'snap down' before the guillotine, a judo players sudden unbalancing of the opponent before the throw etc. Classical forms can unlock a lot of this- but only if they understood and practised correctly. (I am not saying all people should practise classical forms, or that they are the most efficient way to train, I am just saying that perhaps you have oversimplified and rejected them too soon.)
TL;DR - "You just need more practice. Also my grandmaster convinced me that if I keep paying him for 40 years physics stop mattering."
@@TheBigMclargehuge thats the problem with "TL;DR" :people do not take the time to read. There is a lot of fake martial arts and unscientific nonsense out there, yes. But high level skill does take years to develop, unfortunately. That is what "Kung Fu" means- time and practise. Doesn't matter whether is it classical martial arts, or the 'perfect left hook' or 'the perfect arm bar'- it all takes time and practise. If you don't see functional skill in a few months, though- something is wrong. But the difference between 'functional skill' and 'excellence' takes years. True in any field, not just martial arts.
I love your videos. We have similar kung fu backgrounds. Your stories about forms training made me laugh and depressed at the same time. I'll miss you Tiger Crane form...
I see what you're saying...but I think of it as relaxing and making sure you get the full alignment and extension. I also think of it as related to relaxing and then moving in the right timing in judo and jiu jitsu. It's about relaxation and alignment. The snap is the after effect that some people can do. If you don't - for instance - fully protract your shoulder using your serratus - you lack follow through and shoulder stability. And all of that requires a lot of relaxation and focusing on that fully extension. However if it's all about the snap...that can sometimes result in just the last second of tightening up being the only focus which can make it easy for someone to forget about momentum. If you look up say, Andre Bertel - he can knock out dudes twice his size with one hit. That's the true kime. It's relaxation + alignment + follow through. Also Bertel as some techniques that don't linger and others that do. They'll both take another dude out though.
Actually in the okinawan old karate, they didn't do time, they zin cuchi or something like that, which is actually not contracting but expanding your punches and kicks
Yes its chinkuchi if you want to be specific, here is the full explanation ua-cam.com/video/ENd2WtkuD8s/v-deo.html
In kempo jujutsu I was taught the 7 / 10 concept which is what goes out of a speed of 7 comes back at a speed of ten. I did notice very early on when training with a partner that they would stop the punch or kick and leave it out there but was told that it was only for training/ teaching purposes. Now that sounds reasonable but then again you fight the way you train, so in order for you to learn you would also need to forget 😉
Thanks for the video!
My thoughts exactly because to be fair, I have never trained under a Karate instructor who though we did the punches this way for katas; ever suggested that we fight that way.
They said that it was to protect the joint like Stephen stated but that during sparring, we must punch through the target.
Karate folks can bust thick bricks and boards ( probably not bowling balls) with traditional POWERFUL Karate forms. My PERSONAL best was breaking a two in pine board with the Bruce Lee Wing Chun ONE INCH PUNCH. The Makiwara board is a good discipline for gaining natural brass knuckles. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not gain saying, I agree, trying to trap a fast boxing jab or over an hand right, is extremely difficult. My buddy who is a boxer got the wind knocked out of him by a shotokan reverse punch that he didn't see coming! IT IS ALL GOOD!.🐯😊
Very good video sir! Did you ever wonder why punches were in a different category then strikes. All punches were called "thrusting techniques" or Zuki/Tsuki Waza. They weren't in "striking techniques" or Uchi Waza. I have my opinion on this but I would love to know yours.
In my opinion (I've done more than ten years of Karate among other martial arts), spending 30 minutes on the heavy bag teaches more about the right amound of "KIME" that should be used or not (or snap and contraction of the fist, etc...) than 10 years of KATA or other moves done againt thin air...
... I think I have been irreversibly corrupted by the "dark side" of martial arts after reading Bas Rutten's Big Book of Combat (best book about martial arts ever... but one cannot practice traditionnal martial arts with the same perspective after reading that one). I still practice Karate, but not in a reaserch of effectiveness but for the cultural an historical aspects that I love !
finally somebody pointed this out, katas are completely and utterly useless and if by any means you still do it because of some really small benefit from doing it you are still dumb to waste your time on them.
interesting,, not quite what I was taught but then my favorite instructors have been former military . They all emphasized that there was a difference between form practice and actual application. Once I was told that what you're describing was more about maintaining your balance , not letting the momentum pull your body off balance, another told me "it's supposed to prevent shock from coming back to your body from the object you are striking. Now to me the most important is the idea that proper biomechanics that it teaches. We " mocked " the performance gi's designed to make the pop with out proper form. Were we right , I don't know , do I still train classical, Yes, and always with the Knowledge that traditional form the foundation , and that real life applications are different.
I think kime is for developing a stronger body structure, not for generating more power
Nice video one more thing that separates kata and bad kihon from shadow boxing (which it get compared to alot)
there is a misleading point here. the punch should still penetrates even if you use kime. so the experiment with the ball is misleading. in both schools you hit through the target. it is not that without kime your arms become elastic and extend more...
I somewhat agree with you actually. That is what we were taught in theory as well. However that is not usually what comes out under pressure though
Tell that to the WKF :p
Do you think k u shotokan is useful at all in real fighting? Some of the hand techniques I defeated with wing chun. Snd it focuses on grabs which I think are unrealistic and a waste of time
Well said
You don't see as much of this in Okinawan karate as you do systems that were Okinawan, sent to Japan, and then returned to Okinawa with a Japanese twist. In origi al Oki karate form is secondary to function... You can look at the stances and see which is which. Goku from Japan has very deep stances, the original almost straight up. So they can move. And fight. You know, stay alive stuff...
Would be great if you could get Ian Abernethy back on the podcast or UA-cam to discuss this topic. 👍
Question - How do you tell when your kick/punch is over extended? I have like 0 knowledge boyt stuff like this and Im not athletic at all sorry o.o
1) never let your arm or leg go all the way straight.
2) if the next day, the back of your knee hurts or the inside of your elbow hurts from kicking or punch, it was overextended.
If your muscles are sore from exercise that’s good but your joints shouldn’t hurt :)
I believe, now that i’m old, true street fighters will Usually beat a “martial artist”. Full contact fighting is eventually necessary. But, Ouch 🤕
I watched a video where an okinwan Sensei is criticising how the karate people in the mainland Japan and other countries who does sport karate are freezing and is stiff as a brick at the end of a technique to look good. So I don't think okinwan karate people does this, maybe they pause when learning the kata so the Sensei can correct the technique but I don't think that they practice it that way. Even if they don't pull it back like in boxing, they probably don't freeze the hand mid air using all the muscles so that it's not wobbling around.
The thumbnail 👌🤣🤣
there are two types of impacts. one is like a hammer, the other is like a whip, and for a good understanding half a word is enough.
Your going through the opponent not staying at the surface and stop and u keep attacking till u have to block or dodge or till the opponent is no longer able to attack
good video
This is a pretty sensitive topic for many, but also something that should be discussed (especially for self defense).
It's simple to pressure test, have a friendly sparring session with some who trains boxing/kick boxing and see what happens.
I still find it surprising that people don't want to be brutally honest about what works and what doesn't.
That’s correct, it is a sensitive topic and it should be discussed. As for the brutal honesty, Stephen did mention on another video on how many traditional martial artists sometimes question their abilities, and they question whether or not the martial arts they’ve learned or are learning is actually useful in a real combat situation, and to a degree, they want to get in a fight or become a security guard to test it, but at the same time they don’t, because they’re afraid, not just of getting injured (or worse), but also because they’re afraid that they might have spent years if not decades of time training something that’s completely useless (at least for self defence).
Kime as you defined it is actual very recent in karate ( shotokan for Example) and is a Japanese concept. . In most okinawan systems,there is no such thing as the Japanese kime. You punch through the target. not stop or lock . Chinese talk about fajing which has many forms some hard some very soft.
I practice Matsubayashi-Ryu in Germany and my instructor encourages me to use "Gamaku und Chinkuchi" more than Kime. Don´t get me wrong, I love the snap with my dogi when I pratice the Ren-Tsuki, but it consumes me after ten minutes 🤣
Kime Is about allignment not Power.
AND THEN BOXER GOES BEDANG!!!!
you may be missing the context. People didn't have access to heavy bags or pads - maybe a whole class of students would have one target to actually punch. So how do you practice? Kime was probably a way to punch with near full force and not destroy your joints.
Now that we have equipment, it's become obsolete.
"B DANG" 👍
You are completly wrong. Is phisique, transfer your weigth on punch is very incredible but you have to see a good kime to understand. And a good kime dont freeze at final, its miles sec, less time in freeze means more power in contracion
Kime it's not for fighting.
I dare to quote Mitsusuke Harada, the highest ranked Shotokan master awarded by Funakoshi himself, trained under Gichin Funakoshi, Gigo Funakoshi, Shigeru Egami, Toshio Watanabe and Tadao Okuyama: "[...] Kime is completely nonsense, it is ideology and not realistic!" - None of the old masters like Itosu, Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Toyama, Miyagi, Chibana, Yabu, etc. have ever mentioned kime, you cannot find it in any publication back then and in contrary to what was stated in the video: The native Okinawan styles that have not been influenced by Japanese (School) Karate don't know kime at all. The concepts there are Gamaku and Chinkuchi - which are about connection from lower and upper body over the hip, good body alignment and proper explosive acceleration, contracting only the muscles needed for that acceleration - then letting the technique run out naturally or retract it, having a natural flow of technique. Kime is apparently something that came up at around 1949 in the circles of the JKA and spread from there. And as correctly stated in the video: It does not make sense from a physical point of view. It's magical thinking. Nothing else.
@@eisbombenterror,
Still not for fighting.
Who tell people to freeze that muscle on their arm when practice with kime?? Thats totally wrong way.. freezing your arm muscle is the wrong way of doing kime... The right way is to relaxing your arm muscle and the one who gonna freeze was your abs when your hips reach its limit rotation.. The point of kime is to feel, learn and unsderstand your hips rotation's and breathing during punch.. if someone master kime truly his punching speed, stability, and power gonna be increased because of his relaxed arm who create speed and hips control who create stability.. by practicing kime the person know how his own body work when throwing a punch.. so the point of kime is to practice speed and stability, speed+stabilty = power .. and also without knowledge and understanding about kime you'll broke your spine or at least slipped down to ground when missed a punch or kick. respect all martial arts buddy, I think all martial arts has their own idea to practice speed and hip rotation so they don't lose balance when striking hard at maximum speed right?😬👌
This explosion of power at the end of a strike is not to be stopped, if you are training it properly. Like Bagua, you are always in motion. When fajing occurs, the movement transitions to another movement simultaneously, you never let a block or strike fall asleep. What you are talking about is just bad training techniques. I did that when I was in karate, then when I learned the internal arts of kung fu, I realized that what you are talking about is what makes martial artists stiff and not fluid.
Yeah a lot of people say that if they haven’t studied in Japan. And what you’re talking about isn’t what they mean by kime. 決め literally means decision thereby intent. The whole point of stopping and starting thing in kata is a teaching aid. It is not fighting is taught. Not in Okinawan Goju or Tomari-te.
@Arctic Ruffner if you teach flow without a reset point the technique gets sloppy and without power. And I trained under Kanazawa Ryuichi 8th Dan Hanchi Goju Karate and Traditional weapons. I was also the international secretary of the federation. And trained with Japanese special forces in Yakuendai. So let’s not make appeals to authority shall we?
Like Ballet the student has to learn the individual techniques to perfection then flow them together in a complicated set of moves. Also with Okinawan karate and Southern Hakka Kung Fu systems wrist attitude are very important these stop important for the teacher to check positioning. Next is that you must understand that Kata at basic level is nothing more than a memory aid to remember the technique of the system. At the advanced level it is a dynamic meditation system to develop Qi power.
Unfortunately, the Southern Kung Fu and Karate have a lot subtle moves that are rarely transferred to the west. Example, in the vid below in the last move where I do a kime you will see a double punch what is actually doing is approximating my anterior ribs like an accordion. While doing many other muscle contractions. How could anyone teach something as complicated as that without a stop?. www.bitchute.com/video/wxochiOd8SGv/ finally there is no stops in fighting Karate until the fight is finished. Unfortunately the author has made a vid on a false premise.
Nothing good comes of punching and kicking air. That's the bottom line.
I thought that for a long time. But I now realise you need a mix of both air beating and resistance. The latter is, or should be, obvious. You can't claim to have fighting skill if you don't know if you can strike hard, or stay calm when someone else is trying to hit you. But fighting the air is good for balance and control. If you're in a fight, some of your strikes WILL miss. When they do, if you've not practiced how to maintain your composure, you're stuffed. Boxers do it. They call it shadow boxing. The problem comes when too much emphasis is on air drills. One of the places I trained, for too long, did hardly any contact work of any kind. There were people there, that had only experienced that club, that thought they had martial art abilities, when in fact some of them, even at higher grades, were just dancers. If it were up to me, I'd say split the time 50/50 between air drills and contact/resistance.
right, that's why boxers shadow all the time?
This video sounds like a lot of bro science to me bro.
Unfortunately all your arguments are wrong since you define Kime incorrectly. No advanced practitioner, at least in Karate, freezes or stops their punches or strikes at 99% of their trajectory mid air. The techniques appear to freeze only when Karate trainees do their Kihon = basic training up and down the Dojo. This is the traditional form of training passed down since 100 years ago. In sparring or in any fighting situation the punches and strikes are never frozen mid air. They are snapped back not by the antagonistic muscle but otherwise, in a much more energy efficient / effective manner, but this technique is the domain of Masters not onlookers.
@Arctic Ruffner Kime is not what he refers to it is something completely different. In contest Kumite a lot happens that is not realistic but essential to win points under the set rules. Most agree on this one. Traditional Karate basic training (Kihon) has been established for at least the last 100 years to consist of drills up and down the room with "frozen" punches. However along the way realistic techniques have been added to the syllabuses like combination techniques (Renraku Waza) and step sparring (Kihon Kumite) where the movements resemble real fighting situations and the techniques are fluent not static.
Please dont do this i respect you as a martial artist dont tall about topics you dont understand just for views and or content
I would argue that I do understand this, but what am I missing in your opinion?
@@SelfDefenseTutorialssorry for late response im at work but my opinion is you are bashing striking arts tactics to train without understanding why they do what they do. Now i am no master only a first dan (3rd dan is master level) but the snap you talk about is a tool we use same as kata infact in old school martial arts there was a whole philosophy behind it that i think you dont know. You are a very knowledgeable martial artist as I have subscribed to you for years to learn but this video did not seem to have educational in it just felt you were attacking other disciplines or fighting arts and that doesnt help anyone but divide us
@@2lilwoohoo I think it's good to challenge old ideas. We can improve our own understanding, or learn new things by considering the opposite point of view. It is more healthy than blindly following a teacher or 'unquestioning loyalty' I think. As long at it is done by challenging and debating the ideas themselves, and doesn't get personal then everybody benefits. I put my own remarks in the comments, because I have some different opinions to Stephan, but I respect him as he is a smart guy who really considers what he teaches, and conveys his knowledge well. I have certainly benefitted from some of his grappling videos. I understand the defensive mode that we go into when we see some of our cherished ideas challenged (I feel that, too!), but ultimately it is a good thing and the modern idea of 'sparing everybody's feelings' is misguided. If you can't rationally defend your beliefs then maybe you need to study them more and get some better arguments, or maybe get some better beliefs.
@Arctic Ruffner and your a keyboard warrior i follow stephen because he has alot of good information however I dont blindly follow him and as any good martial artist i will speak up when I think he is wrong as im pretty sure he would do to me he also politely asked my opinion i gave it and moved on you really you just want to call people out because and i dont know you but it would seem to make you stand out and feel better about yourself im not the guy to do that with
@@2lilwoohoo Whole philisophy behind the punch? Which you don't know? Looks like you've been brainwashed by a lunatic sensei, man. I am tired of all these defendants of traditionality in Easter martial arts. Just tell us that philosophy.