Sundowner Boss Battle - No Damage S-rank - Revengeance Difficulty

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  • Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
  • Wanted to record a decent/good run of Sundowner. The lock-on mechanism can be a pain, so the second helicopter has caused many a failed No Damage runs.
    For anyone unaware, the requirements for S-rank in this battle are:
    - 5 minutes or less
    - 400 BP
    - 2 Zandatsu
    - 3 kills
    - 50 hit combo
    Since No Damage gives you 2,000 points, I choose to ignore the Zandatsu requirement and simply kill Sundowner in his 2nd phase before he has a chance to call the soldiers in.

КОМЕНТАРІ • 261

  • @jetstreamsam2
    @jetstreamsam2 2 роки тому +645

    The flight back to the roof almost lasted longer than the actual fight 💀💀

  • @spotlight9269
    @spotlight9269 2 роки тому +508

    One cool fact about Sundowner: He's fucking invincible

    • @jetstreamsam2
      @jetstreamsam2 2 роки тому +56

      Second cool fact about Sundowner: He love minors

    • @nspectorr
      @nspectorr 2 роки тому +42

      third cool fact about Sundowner: he's very in touch with his inner child

    • @jetstreamsam2
      @jetstreamsam2 2 роки тому +1

      Fourth cool fact about Sundowner: he will split you in two

    • @Al_musawi14
      @Al_musawi14 2 роки тому +23

      Fivth cool fact about sundowner: he's a gacha player

    • @spotlight9269
      @spotlight9269 2 роки тому +13

      @@Al_musawi14 He likes kids to the point it's uncanny, so he, for sure, played/plays/will play Genshin Impact

  • @mantis3069
    @mantis3069 2 роки тому +88

    1:17 "We will not forget the red sun over pear."

  • @KozmicKozmo
    @KozmicKozmo 2 роки тому +222

    3:01 When raiden puts the Murasama back into it’s sheath, it goes through it but then disappears

    • @metamorphosis1980
      @metamorphosis1980 2 роки тому +29

      nanomachines, son.

    • @user-vv6le6pj9h
      @user-vv6le6pj9h 2 роки тому

      Yamato exe.

    • @martisan7711
      @martisan7711 2 роки тому +6

      the Murasama is not designed for this sheath cuz its longer,also about the blade disappearing i think when changing blades all that happens is a model swap

    • @MangakaConnor
      @MangakaConnor 2 роки тому

      @@user-vv6le6pj9h .rar

    • @Omega-jg4oq
      @Omega-jg4oq 2 роки тому +8

      Raiden is a Ninja not a Brazilian Samurai

  • @johnson__johnson
    @johnson__johnson 2 роки тому +134

    That little jump at the beginning was so rad

  • @Jerry-hr9qu
    @Jerry-hr9qu 2 роки тому +158

    impossible he's fucking invincible how did you kill him

    • @soapybaker4594
      @soapybaker4594 2 роки тому +8

      He only put him into a little nap.

    • @Redact_2
      @Redact_2 2 роки тому +12

      He didn't kill him, he was just tired

  • @stevent3676
    @stevent3676 2 роки тому +340

    Completely random, but I hope that someday somebody programs this fight so that Sundowner in his first phase takes very little damage (basically Armstrong phase 1), forcing the player to remove his shields, since Phase 2 is a million times more fun to fight against

    • @breadbug6101
      @breadbug6101 2 роки тому +53

      I feel like that’s the way it should’ve been; you can remove all his shields but there’s no incentive to

    • @GreyCain
      @GreyCain 2 роки тому +11

      Phase 1 is the easiest. I defeated him on Phase 1 only

    • @Toasted_Failure
      @Toasted_Failure 2 роки тому +8

      Yea there's actually a second phase if you just take out his sheilds and wait tho I do agree with this

    • @stevent3676
      @stevent3676 2 роки тому +3

      @@GreyCain that's the issue

    • @anhilo9716
      @anhilo9716 Рік тому +2

      @@Nyr0nZ guessing its a murasama upgrade

  • @bigballs274
    @bigballs274 2 роки тому +22

    2:00 WAIT YOU CAN SHOOT WITH THIS

    • @has2give
      @has2give Рік тому +2

      I DIDNT KNOW THAT EITHERR!?!?!?!?!

    • @bigballs274
      @bigballs274 Рік тому +1

      @@has2give LOL

  • @ErwinSmith001
    @ErwinSmith001 2 роки тому +65

    *0:55* Me when:
    The wind is slow
    And the fire's hot
    The vulture waits to see rots
    Oh how pretty
    All the scenery
    This is nature's sacrifice
    When the air blows through with a brisk attack
    The reptile tail ripped from it's back
    When the sun sets we will not forget
    The Red Sun over paradise
    Red Sun

    • @LaxerGD
      @LaxerGD 2 роки тому

      The vulture waits to see what rots*

    • @ErwinSmith001
      @ErwinSmith001 2 роки тому

      @@LaxerGD I forgotten💀

    • @lolo-yb7fp
      @lolo-yb7fp 2 роки тому

      @@ErwinSmith001 u forgor 💀

    • @beesechurger2540
      @beesechurger2540 Рік тому

      The music in this game is incredible

  • @Isaac_646
    @Isaac_646 2 роки тому +38

    It is shocking how fast this awesome fight can end :(

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому +20

    When air goes trough with a brisk atack

    • @DurakovPOLKOVN
      @DurakovPOLKOVN 2 роки тому +4

      The reptile tail ripped from its back

    • @allateral_4429
      @allateral_4429 2 роки тому +4

      @@DurakovPOLKOVN when the sun sets, we will not forget the red sun over paradise

    • @beesechurger2540
      @beesechurger2540 6 місяців тому

      It’s hard to hear, but it’s “blows through”

  • @dvdossbsvskfbdvav
    @dvdossbsvskfbdvav 2 роки тому +19

    YOU CAN SHOOT ON THE SLIDER?? I had absolutely no idea, I was spending ages dodging and failing on that part

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому +4

      Yeah, it came as a surprise to me too when I found out. Pretty sure my first couple playthroughs was me just dodging the debris and other sliders.

    • @Nyr0nZ
      @Nyr0nZ Рік тому +1

      @@sev0n385 01:11 how did u draw attack on pc please tell me i cant do it

    • @beesechurger2540
      @beesechurger2540 Рік тому +1

      It’s an enhancement you can purchase in the customize menu under skills. You do it by holding down the attack button and then releasing it.

    • @Astrael_Yearly
      @Astrael_Yearly Рік тому +1

      @@beesechurger2540 wich one

    • @beesechurger2540
      @beesechurger2540 Рік тому

      It’s called quick draw.

  • @fautraarrafi
    @fautraarrafi 2 роки тому +24

    0:14 im fucking invincible
    Meanwhile 3 minute later
    *Dead

  • @silhouette_de_verdad
    @silhouette_de_verdad Рік тому +7

    "Red sun over pa-" and then Sundowner died, it makes me laugh

    • @has2give
      @has2give Рік тому +4

      red sun over pear

  • @antramp5494
    @antramp5494 2 роки тому +37

    Attaboy, Sev0n.

    • @cvzo-b2v
      @cvzo-b2v 2 роки тому +2

      What happens in 3hrs?

    • @antramp5494
      @antramp5494 2 роки тому +2

      @@cvzo-b2v Operation TeCUMseh

    • @cvzo-b2v
      @cvzo-b2v 2 роки тому +2

      @@antramp5494 who armstrong?

    • @rbxless
      @rbxless 2 роки тому +2

      I've already said too much

    • @cvzo-b2v
      @cvzo-b2v 2 роки тому +2

      @@rbxless i have call to make

  • @saulgoodmansfingerr8527
    @saulgoodmansfingerr8527 2 роки тому +23

    Best theme in the game in my opinion (please don't kill me)

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому +6

      I think every boss theme is amazing personally, but Red Sun is certainly up there.

    • @dddddddddddddddddddd647
      @dddddddddddddddddddd647 Рік тому

      Not a bad take tbh

    • @has2give
      @has2give Рік тому

      nothing beats the only thing i know for real but red sun is top 3

    • @cjammy5953
      @cjammy5953 Рік тому +1

      Stains of time.

    • @therealsammich
      @therealsammich Рік тому

      @@cjammy5953 yes yes yes yes yes

  • @NamelessCth
    @NamelessCth 2 роки тому +28

    I Feel like if they added more helicopters and made Sundowner's reaction faster (like, whenever he stops attacking and just stands still to take damage) he'd be harder

    • @cuni8666
      @cuni8666 2 роки тому +10

      helicopter were just so annoying to deal with, if they added more sundowner would be even more unfun to fight

    • @NamelessCth
      @NamelessCth 2 роки тому

      @@cuni8666 I mean you can just strike them with the RPG

    • @cuni8666
      @cuni8666 2 роки тому +1

      @@NamelessCth true, but it really slows down the fast paced nature of the fight and overall although they are really easy to deal with it's really annoying

    • @crinklybones
      @crinklybones 2 роки тому +7

      Nah, he’d be a better fight if he was literally invincible until his shields come off.

  • @amielalvarez922
    @amielalvarez922 2 роки тому +6

    Bro that timing with the music is so good 0:47

    • @taktika4764
      @taktika4764 2 роки тому +2

      It's scripted, but yes, it is cool

  • @Toasted_Failure
    @Toasted_Failure 2 роки тому +39

    If you wait long enough after breaking sundowner's sheild he actually has a second phase so when he falls starts phase 3

  • @darthestvaughn
    @darthestvaughn Рік тому +3

    0:06 me dodging my responsibilitys

  • @Aeglon
    @Aeglon 2 роки тому +3

    2:43 bro why did he open his mask when he was literally getting shot by a flying robot

  • @beesechurger2540
    @beesechurger2540 Рік тому +3

    The best part is when Sundowner goes flying from the helicopter and then you slice him into pieces

  • @p47r1ii
    @p47r1ii 2 роки тому +5

    Attaboy, Sev0n

  • @IdioticPrson
    @IdioticPrson 2 роки тому +2

    “I’m fucking Invincible!”
    This player: Allow me to introduce myself

  • @bigfloppaenjoyer280
    @bigfloppaenjoyer280 2 роки тому +3

    This guy deserves more subs

  • @channelxname5510
    @channelxname5510 2 роки тому +13

    Theoretically you can't "no damage" sundowner. He will ALWAYS hit you with those missiles.

  • @pikminarmy7538
    @pikminarmy7538 2 роки тому +5

    funny story involving this boss and I
    At the very begining I launched him in the air and kept juggling him. got him down to 40%-30% health on phase one.
    made phase two super quick

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому +1

    The laptar walks trought ita back we will never forget the red sun over paradise!

  • @acalexanderchannel9572
    @acalexanderchannel9572 2 роки тому +39

    1:13 how did you do the charge attack?

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому +21

      On M+KB, you click and hold Left Mouse Button. You'll do a normal swipe and then Raiden will holster the sword to charge the attack.

    • @acalexanderchannel9572
      @acalexanderchannel9572 2 роки тому +5

      @@sev0n385 ohh so this is the special effect of Murasama

    • @akuyakami4451
      @akuyakami4451 2 роки тому +7

      @@acalexanderchannel9572 no you can do it with any sword, jut hold the attack button

    • @boneheadedfellow
      @boneheadedfellow 2 роки тому +5

      @@acalexanderchannel9572 you gotta buy the upgrade from the skills section

    • @neoplxyr6112
      @neoplxyr6112 2 роки тому

      @@sev0n385 can you also tell how to block or perry on keyboard I'm trying to learn it for a long time

  • @rys_188
    @rys_188 2 роки тому +1

    0:05 ayo the murasama is through the shealth

  • @Mausyboi
    @Mausyboi 2 роки тому +7

    Well played!

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому

    When the wind is slow,and the dires hot,the vulture waits to see what rots and i allready forgot the song ;-;

  • @Red_Biker_Dude
    @Red_Biker_Dude 2 роки тому +1

    The music was perfect

  • @aceyt7871
    @aceyt7871 2 роки тому

    WHEN THE WIND IS SLOW, ANDTHE FIRE'S HOT

  • @cassiusmishima9052
    @cassiusmishima9052 Рік тому

    Yet another case of "boss who thought they knew."

  • @PPOShadow
    @PPOShadow 2 роки тому +2

    i remember doing this in 2013.... now i feel i cant

  • @Gigzymandias
    @Gigzymandias Рік тому

    this fight became so much easier to S rank once i realised you could shoot in the flying up the building section

  • @velvet.7174
    @velvet.7174 2 роки тому +15

    0:43

  • @rencecs6720
    @rencecs6720 2 роки тому +13

    For some reason in my playthrough I manage to deal damage to him even when hes blocking and he got to low health so fast it skipped cutscenes and dialogues then when I blinked I just saw him fall lol

  • @notrileydl2
    @notrileydl2 2 роки тому

    so, you're telling me:
    This video is (currently) 88 days old (2.89315 months) old
    AND 39,024 people saw this video, yet only 80 people (including me) commented?

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому

    When the wind ia slow ans the fires hot the vulture waits to see what rots. Oh how preety the secrenty this is natures sacrifice!

  • @justsomegamer5932
    @justsomegamer5932 Рік тому

    Virgin Gray Fox Body Fan: 🤡
    Chad MGS4 Raiden Enjoyer: 💪
    And, yeah, great job on the S Rank!

  • @thecreaturethateats
    @thecreaturethateats 2 роки тому

    he couldn’t handle the wrath of jet steam sam

  • @Ringy_Bingy
    @Ringy_Bingy 2 роки тому

    we will not forget the red sun over pear

  • @noobplaysdog2430
    @noobplaysdog2430 2 роки тому

    “ I’m fu__ing invisable”

  • @theguyfromfortniteithink
    @theguyfromfortniteithink 2 роки тому +2

    He killed sundowner that’s fucking invincible

  • @emilaw2082
    @emilaw2082 Рік тому

    No the thing incredible is that we can cut the shield of sundower by the back. I never except that

  • @jetstreamsam2634
    @jetstreamsam2634 2 роки тому

    Sundowner: you can be cruel then that jack

  • @ChristanKAI
    @ChristanKAI 2 роки тому +1

    When the wind is slow👺

  • @Darmateus
    @Darmateus 2 роки тому

    cruller skills then Sundowner expected.

  • @justagamer5490
    @justagamer5490 Рік тому +1

    Nice video !!! Here's a sub.

  • @bojanmarkovic4500
    @bojanmarkovic4500 2 роки тому +2

    Enjoy the music while you can. It was made by god

  • @muhammadzahranyazir4366
    @muhammadzahranyazir4366 2 роки тому +1

    How could defeat a guy who is FUCKING INVINCIBLE

  • @devilblocks666
    @devilblocks666 2 роки тому

    dam so the entire building was hollow

  • @3rdcenturyidiot552
    @3rdcenturyidiot552 2 роки тому +1

    Btw what that naginata thing that raiden using at the start?

  • @HolyknightVader999
    @HolyknightVader999 Рік тому

    To add insult to injury, this is MGS4 Raiden killing him. MGS4 Raiden's cyborg body was horribly out of date by the time he met Sundowner and Jetstream Sam in Africa. Imagine getting your ass kicked by the cyborg version of the Model T.

    • @xiaohuli27
      @xiaohuli27 11 місяців тому

      You can do it in Gray Fox's suit too, so that'll be even more out of date 😳

  • @thebowstaffkid5908
    @thebowstaffkid5908 Рік тому

    something that REALLY ticks me off, but nobody notices is at 0:46, when sundowner attaches his blades, one blade just isnt attached and is 3 centimetres off

    • @cameronordaz2320
      @cameronordaz2320 Рік тому

      It's attached to his arm

    • @thebowstaffkid5908
      @thebowstaffkid5908 Рік тому

      @@cameronordaz2320 ohh

    • @thebowstaffkid5908
      @thebowstaffkid5908 Рік тому

      it doesnt change the fact that the blades are seperated, sure he attaches it, the blade is just floating to the side, no attachments

  • @EthanClashRoyale
    @EthanClashRoyale 2 роки тому +1

    Was i the only one that ran in circles around him spamming the attack button?

    • @beesechurger2540
      @beesechurger2540 Рік тому

      Parrying Sundowner’s attack can take some time to do consistently, but getting that 50 hit or more combo is worth it.

  • @Youtuber24683
    @Youtuber24683 2 роки тому +1

    What happens if you fire a rocket at Sundowner?

  • @Wheetle81
    @Wheetle81 Рік тому

    Watch those numbers drop

  • @pizza5370
    @pizza5370 2 роки тому

    IM FUCKING INVINSIBLE
    gets his shield cut 2 seconds later

  • @SirTrollingham
    @SirTrollingham 5 місяців тому

    What's the secret to precise blade mode cuts on PC? I'm probably doing it wrong but I use the WASD keys and it feels very clunky.

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  5 місяців тому

      I spent some time practicing with the mouse. I typically pretend the mouse is controlling the top of the cut. Moving the mouse right would angle the cut top right to bottom left. Moving the mouse left would achieve the opposite. It's very touchy though and you can very easily move too much.

    • @SirTrollingham
      @SirTrollingham 5 місяців тому

      @@sev0n385Okay thanks. Are you supposed to hold down LMB as well when you're dragging the mouse?

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  5 місяців тому +1

      @@SirTrollingham Can't say I remember. It's been quite a while since I played.

    • @SirTrollingham
      @SirTrollingham 5 місяців тому

      @@sev0n385All good fam

  • @yuriestaniel4629
    @yuriestaniel4629 2 роки тому

    when i fought sundowner all i did was parry block dodge and m1 attacks i did not even care on using blade mode

  • @xiaohuli27
    @xiaohuli27 11 місяців тому

    Did this without the 50 combo and got an A rank... didnt have a backup save and had to do the entire mission again 😂

  • @vazuladorjan3253
    @vazuladorjan3253 Рік тому

    You can't be crueler than that💀

  • @yin.8272
    @yin.8272 2 роки тому

    Kids are cruel jack

  • @Son0f-Sparda
    @Son0f-Sparda Рік тому +1

    1:17 Almost music sync bruh

  • @channel-nb7vx
    @channel-nb7vx 2 роки тому

    Sheild virgin vs chad katana

  • @Vazaien1906
    @Vazaien1906 2 роки тому

    fact:when u go on the roof u can press 1 to see things clearly

  • @voidphoenix2991
    @voidphoenix2991 2 роки тому

    I CAN GO TO THE SIDE TO CUT THE LIMBS ??????

  • @wanaplay6923
    @wanaplay6923 Рік тому

    This fight has the best song and yet the easiest fight. Which is a shame in my eyes

  • @ISuckAtVideoGames4Ever
    @ISuckAtVideoGames4Ever 2 роки тому

    ohhhh i never thought of going behind him before cuttin his *WOMEN DEFLECTORS*

  • @aliff1482
    @aliff1482 11 місяців тому

    can someone tell me how to do the last move,?(pulling out the sword like that?)

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  11 місяців тому

      It's a move you have to buy from the store. I think it unlocks after you beat Sam. All you do is Light Attack and hold the button.

  • @javierrobertovieyra5569
    @javierrobertovieyra5569 2 роки тому

    nice video

  • @timeparadox6578
    @timeparadox6578 Рік тому

    I've been trying to get the S-rank without the pole arm. I didn't succeed yet.

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  Рік тому +1

      You'll get there. If you're having trouble getting the combo for his fight, you could stall it out and instead go for Zandatsu against the soldiers in his 2nd phase.

    • @timeparadox6578
      @timeparadox6578 Рік тому +1

      @@sev0n385 the only way I could deal him so many hits is with the wooden sword or some other weak sword. I like the wooden sword way, makes the battle more fun

  • @rodresh8429
    @rodresh8429 2 роки тому +2

    Es mejor usar el arma de sundowner contra el mismo sundowner en modo the ripper ya que es capas de bajarle asymta un 20 o 30 %de la vida de sundowner

    • @rodresh8429
      @rodresh8429 2 роки тому

      Con ese truco en revengance le fNe en 1 minuto

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому

      The Scissor Blades likely would kill faster, but I'm using the Polearm for combos to get the S-rank. Sundowner has such little HP that getting enough hits on him with any other weapon is difficult to do. I also skip the Zandatsu requirement by opting for the Combo instead.

  • @vadim_65rus
    @vadim_65rus 26 днів тому

    Wait you can shoot while on a slider wtf???????

  • @randomfloppaidk4
    @randomfloppaidk4 2 роки тому

    Baldi but 30% sigma

  • @PikachuComSurf
    @PikachuComSurf 2 роки тому

    he is fucking invincible, you actually didn't killed him, he is just tired

  • @0nionturtle
    @0nionturtle 2 роки тому

    man i did it almost as fast as u and u still got about 114.226 more views than me

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому

    I tried singing it

  • @pororogaming7359
    @pororogaming7359 2 роки тому

    Bruh raiden just got brun and he say waaaaaaaaa :moyai:

  • @amrstrongbozo
    @amrstrongbozo 2 роки тому +1

    Raiden is fackin inviceble

  • @mettat9062
    @mettat9062 2 роки тому

    dude you literally bullied him

  • @allateral_4429
    @allateral_4429 2 роки тому

    bro has 3 million BP

  • @luke-l5347
    @luke-l5347 2 роки тому

    Now i know why uzumaki-chan cant beat him

    • @has2give
      @has2give Рік тому

      No, We dont allow anime in this MGRR kingdom

    • @hackerman203
      @hackerman203 Рік тому

      @@has2give isn't mgrr a republic?

  • @BlueBloxRoblox
    @BlueBloxRoblox 10 днів тому

    yo can shoot with that? Awesome, ok bye

  • @Cherno35
    @Cherno35 2 роки тому

    Real men do phase 2

  • @AightImmaDip
    @AightImmaDip 2 роки тому

    Wait.. you could destroy the helicopter

  • @therealsnip
    @therealsnip 2 роки тому

    How you get murusama blade early

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому +2

      This isn't my first playthrough. Once you beat the game once, you can buy it from the Customization screen and equip it whenever you want.

    • @therealsnip
      @therealsnip 2 роки тому

      @@sev0n385 yea i beat the game

  • @mugofbricks
    @mugofbricks 2 роки тому

    You can move in blade mode

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому

      Gonna be honest. I never figured out how to do that. I never bothered looking it up and just made do with standing in one place.

    • @mgrdmcfansthatdontplaytheg781
      @mgrdmcfansthatdontplaytheg781 2 роки тому

      @@sev0n385 Hold your Run key while holding Blade Mode, the downside is you can't turn while walking

  • @liedo3620
    @liedo3620 2 роки тому

    How you quick draw bazooka?

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому

      Tap 'X' or 'C' (can't remember off the top of my head which button) with it equipped as a subweapon.

    • @liedo3620
      @liedo3620 2 роки тому

      @@sev0n385 yes i know how to "use" item. How can you use bazooka without aim-ing it first.

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому

      @@liedo3620 I just told you. Tap the button. Don't hold it.

    • @liedo3620
      @liedo3620 2 роки тому

      Oh i get it

  • @jetstreamsamuel18
    @jetstreamsamuel18 2 роки тому +1

    I can kill sundowner without even attacking or moving smh

  • @randomladUwU
    @randomladUwU 2 роки тому

    now do it with a 360 controller on a crt tv

  • @silverfish-od3tc
    @silverfish-od3tc 2 роки тому

    dude use murasama before sam fight

    • @sev0n385
      @sev0n385  2 роки тому

      I mean, unless you use the Konami code to unlock Revengeance right away, you'd have Murasama unlocked after your first playthrough on Normal.

  • @lockhd_mrtn
    @lockhd_mrtn 2 роки тому

    pretty sure he can't get any crueler than that

  • @crispin6032
    @crispin6032 2 роки тому

    lies he got hit in the cutscene

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому

    Welp

  • @renarszaikins5132
    @renarszaikins5132 2 роки тому

    The (idk what the word is)

  • @LUVIXIM
    @LUVIXIM 2 роки тому

    1:39 ratio + fake + got damaged + lier + rat + lier again