Who Framed Roger Rabbit - re:View
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2022
- Rich and Jay discuss the classic 1988 film noir zany animated groundbreaking visual effects masterpiece Who Framed Roger Rabbit while somehow never once mentioning the name of animation legend Richard Williams.
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Kudos to them mentioning Jessica Rabbit and "Rack Focus" in the same sentence without making the obvious joke.
Huh?...
OOOOOH! Nice.
Fantastic.
I dont get it..
@@alfias7316 godbless you
@@alfias7316
>profile pic
Everything checks out
I adore the fact that that author of “Who Censored Roger Rabbit” loved the movie so much that he retconned his own book as a bad dream.
I think it was more due to the fact that the movie was a tremendous hit and his book wasn't, so he went where the money was.
I looked up who fucked Roger rabbit and just got porn, idk what I exp xted
@@johnsensebe3153 its probably both
One of most cherished items is a signed book by him my brother bought me.
The book is definitely worth a read though. I think I hated every character in the book besides Eddie by the end, and I don't mean that in a bad way at all.
The "dropped a piano on his head" line is so great because it's such a classic Chuck Jones cartoon gag, but actually doing that to a real human being would be unspeakably horrible.
I won't even subject you to the horrors of our 3 Stooges ward
In regards to 'the dip': during the early animation years (30s-50s), as a cost saving measure, Disney, Warner Bros. and their contemporaries used to reuse the animation cels from finished productions by scraping off the artwork and giving them 'the dip' to clean off the cel so it could be used for a new production (since every frame of animation required its own cel). It isn't just some crazy idea made for the film, its based on a niche part of animation history!
oh maaan. imagine wiping the classic cels like that.. all just to save on celluloid. they had no idea how much those were gonna sell for later.
@RedLetterMedia Pin this comment already!
That’s amazing!
@@KairuHakubi Yeah but they needed the money then, they not going to wait 50+ years lol
@@sparda9060 people live a long time, gotta plan for the future.
I appreciate the extra effort of hand-drawing Rich Evans into this episode. So much better than the CGI version from the Star Trek: Picard reviews.
You guys will say anything about this poor man
He's still got those dead eyes though. They creep me out
I didn't really buy it as the shots were all static and he wasn't interacting much with any real world objects.
Not interacting with the real world is just part of Rich Evans's tragic character.
@@somethingsomething8511 Black, like a dolls eyes.
I saw one person say something like "if Roger Rabbit is a love letter to the golden age of animation, Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers is a death threat to the animation industry," and I think that's very accurate, not even in a bad way.
Maybe in a little bit of a bad way, but only a little.
Ah, I see you're a watcher of TeamFourStar as well
And Ready Player One was a dick pic sent to every IP available
@@Malygosblues Was it them? I heard it second-hand.
@@Malygosblues link to it?
To me, the Chip N' Dale movie represents the worst aspects of modern pop culture and movie making - everything is meta, nothing is played straight, and actual humor and storytelling has been replaced with references that tricks audiences in to thinking they're watching something enjoyable because they go "OMG THIS IS A THING THAT I KNOW!!!!"
“No, not at any time. Only when it was funny.” It sets the basic rules of human/toon interaction. It explains why Roger doesn’t go 100 ft tall and takes the city hostage. It states the “anything for a joke” nature of the very medium of early cartoons. It’s a perfect line.
Agreed!
I wonder if this line is the origination of the concept of "toon force", or if the line is describing an existing writing rule known to animation pros. I mean, the writers for bugs bunny (for example) certainly KNEW he could do anything they wrote for him, but it would only make it to production if it was funny, but were they conscious of it as a pseudo law of physics?
It's a real shame they didn't mention Richard Williams, the animation director. They credit Robert Zemeckis for moving the camera but in the beginning he was told any scenes with animation had to be a static shot. When Zemeckis asked Williams about this, Williams told him "you were told that because the animators are lazy," he went on to tell Zemeckis to film it like he would any movie and they'll animate with it because their job was creating movement. So it should be Richard getting the credit. There's also a story Andreas Deja (animator on Roger Rabbit and the animator of Scar, Gaston abd more) tells about working on a shot he thought was static but after Roger was moving out of place slightly, he had an assistant take the background prints and track a wooden beam in the shot. They took the tracked paper (simple traced pencil line) held it to a window and sure enough, the line was jittering. It was a hand held camera he needed to animate with. He found a cheat that is used in programs today. He tracked a object in the scene, moving the paper so it always lined up with it. Punched the paper so the traced line stayed in one place. Then he'd animate on what in the end looked like an unstraightened stack of paper, but once lined up, the rabbit would jitter along with the camera.
That’s a amazing solution; real genius move by the artists
Thank you.
We can also thank Richard Williams for Jessica Rabbit, and his never ending war on the female waistline.
Seriously, he's a genius of an animator, but the man could not draw more than a 1cm wide waistline for women.
Zemeckis asked about this because he was planning not to, it was a lot of work for him too so its not wrong per say to say they both made this decision, he was told it was _possible_ by Williams, Zemeckis still had to direct and make a lot of other decisions around this. Static shot is easier for the director too you know
Bruh Jessica Rabbit is a cartoon character married to a rabbit. Its not meant to look realistic at all@@Chernobog34
A true classic. I hope Rich will not someday laugh himself to death, like one of the weasels.
If he provides the footage of him trying to keep his angelic ghost from flying away, we will animate it
Mike would be doing his Palpatine laugh
@@BRBMrSoul Bold to asume Mike still has a soul
Rich's laugh is the stuff of angels.
Wish i could like this comment more than once
One of my favorite little incidental scene, Richard Williams talks about it in his famous book (The Animator's Survival Kit). Bob Hoskins was apparently amazing at acting at nothing. He was able to fully focus on the cartoon characters he couldn't see, while the other actors sort of seemed like they were looking past them. Hoskins could look Roger dead in the eyes, and the animators worked with that great.
But there was one scene where he was talking to Roger backed into a wall. Hoskins was supposed to look down at him, but instead for some reason he looked straight ahead. A rare blunder. So what did the animators do? They had Roger back into the wall stretched out and on his toes to meet with Bob's eyes. It's so genius, that you wouldn't even notice it was there to fix a mistake.
I love that too. You wonder how many scenes did that in post. It was an Invisible Man movie completed later on. Let's not forget that Bob started seeing cartoon characters everywhere as a weird side effect of making this movie.
I thought it was a glaring oversight that Richard Williams (RIP) isn't mentioned in this entire video (I don't think so, anyway)... but somehow Ralph Bakshi IS? Williams definitely deserves credit for the animation side of this movie. Maybe a mention of other movie intros he worked on, or the sad story of the ill-fated Thief and the Cobbler / Arabian Knight...
Also, I had successfully forgotten about Cool World. Thanks a lot guys, for bringing that back into my mind!
@@btr3k I don't think RedLetterMedia generally respects or cares about animation. This is like, the first time they ever talk about it, besides jokes with Looney Tunes or Simpsons, and when Rich talked about Danny Phantom, or when Mike said "taken for granite" from Rick & Morty.
Anyways, they probably wouldn't know or care who Richard Williams was. Which is a shame, but that's the way it is.
Beautiful.
Made me smile
@@uknownada The video's description reads "Rich and Jay discuss the classic 1988 film noir zany animated groundbreaking visual effects masterpiece Who Framed Roger Rabbit while somehow never once mentioning the name of animation legend Richard Williams."
R.I.P. to the most adorable cartoon shoe in cinema history 😢
😭
he was just trying to be friendly :(
That scene ruins the movie. The entire thing is obnoxious and mean spirited in a way classic WB cartoons never were, but that cold blooded murder was pointless edginess.
@@dennissullivan6700 Agreed...it makes me freaking sick every time I watch it. I genuinely loathe that scene, putrid and unnecessary. And you're right, for all the violence, the old school WB cartoons never had anything so awful.
Hated that scene as a kid and always skipped it.
As a kid, that entire climactic sequence with Christopher Lloyd was absolutely terrifying
Pure horror. Oh the nightmares I had from that...
100%!!
"bump the lamp" is actually a term in traditional animation that basically means going above and beyond in ways that only a small part of the audience will actually notice.
This movie is iconic
This film not only saved disney from bankruptcy and the animation department from being shut down, but revitalized American animation in general.
bro this movie cured cancer we just dont know it yet.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit is a stone cold masterpiece. And you guys are right, it's so much better viewing it as adult. I played my vhs copy over and over growing up. But I notice so much more now. One thing I spotted to make Judge Doom just a tad more off as a human was his duster. Every time he is on screen it's moving ever so subtly like there's a slight breeze. Even when he is indoors! Like Plinkett says. You may not have noticed it, but your brain did. Pure brilliance!
i still have my copy of the VHS in my parents attic. Still has the original sleeve too. that thing was probably watch 300 times easy.
The connection between the Valliant Brother's death and Judge Doom bothered me until I noticed the subtle hints laid out. The Eddie's brother was killed by a toon robbing a Bank (a toon that is never found) which the toon then used to start the Cloverfield company and ultimately use that power to destroy toon-town. Yes, it's a bit of a coincidence that Eddie is attached to the case (although not really since he is one of, if not the only, the most famous toon-detectives) but it's not a coincidence that the the toon who killed his brother turns out to be Doom.
Doom is also said to have "spread a bunch of samolians around Toon Town" in order to buy his way into having it under his jurisdiction. Obviously taken from that "zillion samolians" he swiped the night he killed Teddy Valiant.
I also love how judge doom is cartoonishly evil its so clever to make his character that way
Yeah I think it actually works great. you're wondering who this guy is, what bug he got up his butt about cartoons, and then it turns out.. nah he's just a murderer. just a guy who kills people and steals money and does shady deals to make more. After the saccharine treatment of toons as this subtly oppressed minority, it's good to see actually they can just be jerks sometimes.
Roger Rabbit's animation director Richard Williams (best known for his insane unfinished film The Thief and the Cobbler, may he rest in peace , etc. etc.) was probably the one responsible for the attention to detail with the animation. He was a notorious perfectionist and would take forever to finish stuff if left to his own devices. The scene in the prohibition room with the lamp actually inspired the term "bumping the lamp" which is used in animation and film to mean "going above and beyond expectations/requirements".
Animation is concentration.
Strongly appreciate this comment. Also aspiring animators should read his book "The Animators Survival Kit"
THE BALL IS LIFE. THE BALL IS EVERYTHING. YOU WILL FUCKING LOVE THAT BOUNCING FUCKING BALL.
Yes! He wrote a/the book on animation, The Animator's Survival Kit. There are cuts of the Thief movie, recobbled is much more faithful to the artist than uh the Matthew Broderick version. Wristbreaking beauty in every cell.
For the animation Zemeckis told Williams he wanted the look of Disney with the humour of Warner Bros, or something like that
"Remember me Eddy?!!!!"
Who Framed Roger Rabbit has a better story and character development than 95% of big Hollywood releases over the past 5 years.
*25 years
I think the best thing about that twist is that while Doom may seem unquestionably obvious as a bad guy, who would have ever guessed he was a toon in disguise? I certainly would not have.
@@motherplayer
I also think it’s amazing that it was revealed many years later that Doom’s true identity is alluded to in Maroon’s office.
"WHEN I KILLED YOUR BROTHER??!!"
You'll never forget the first time you see that.
Plus is there anything more evil than destroying America's public transportation infrastructure in favor of endless cars?
Roger Rabbit is authentic. The cameos complimented the story and built the world. They weren’t treated as cameos for eye candy but as real living characters.
You're absolutely right, this movie makes me miss "movie magic"
It bugs me a bit that in this 50 minute discussion, Richard Williams’ name wasn’t mentioned once. Not only is he a massive part of this movie’s success and creative vision, he’s also a complete nutjob who would have made for excellent fodder for the boys. I guess chock it up to these being film buffs; not animation buffs. But still.
Just to be that person, it's "chalk" it up. But I totally agree, Richard Williams really was an indispensable part of that project
@@shmunkyman33 Well let me be that person, I graciously accept your correction and commit to doing better in the future
@@dillflynn No worries man, if you've only ever heard it out loud then it makes perfect sense to spell it that way :)
Film buffs to a T. They still think cartoons are for kids. Angel Cop laughs in bloody bullets.
well i mean they acknowledge that in the description
I get more baffled by Roger Rabbit as time goes on. It's impressive to a point that I feel its biggest failing is that there's a 100% lack of Tom & Jerry in it.
I read somewhere there was supposed to be a scene where Tom and Jerry were in attendance at Marvin Acme's funeral, but no one could get the licensing for their involvement
@@Grovester77 Popeye was supposed to be there, too. There are storyboards out there on the internet. Some studios would only let them use a certain amount of their characters for some reason.
The CGI Roger Rabbit test is a lot more exciting when you consider that it was made in 1998. To replicate the look of hand drawn animation they actually did animate him traditionally, and then modeled the CGI Roger frame by frame on top of the drawings so his character could still have the same squash and stretch that toons did. This process for this was so time intensive and cost prohibitive that the movie was never made. As cool as the technology was, I agree with Jay and Rich's sentiment that we do not need a sequel.
Oh wow, that is pretty impressive for 98.
1989
They originally had a much smaller budget for this film. Robert Zemeckis went back to the studio and got more money. They were originally going to go with no interactions, static camera work to make the animation easier but Zemeckis insisted on making his life harder. It paid off so hard for the studio!
Just searched for the box office - i don't know if this is true but - holy moly about 250 million $ revenue. in 1988! Good god.
My favorite scene is when Eddie finally goes to Toontown, and it's got this huge serious dramatic build-up, with the super scary music in the tunnel, and he's clearly terrified, on edge, pouring sweat, psyching himself up for it...
And then the red curtain opens into a Disney vault acid trip musical where the sun is shining, all the old cartoons are running around, every inanimate object is smiling and singing; the sudden shift in tone never fails to make me laugh.
Yeah, that tunnel scene especially, with the dramatic music... So good.
"Smile, darn ya, smile!"
You know, not a lot of people give the movie credit for that particular moment. To me, that scene was just as groundbreaking as Judy Garland stepping out into the colorful world of Oz from her sepia toned Kansas home.
That scene was a massive payoff for how hard it was built up throughout the movie. It's horrifying really, to go from a world where the tree you carve your initials in is just a tree to a world where that tree has a face, a name, a personality and probably a wife and a grove of saplings at home.
Love that shift also but in a completely opposite way, for some reason that always made me feel uneasy. It gave me a disturbed feeling.
Bob Hoskins is literally one of the best casting decisions of all time. Disney really wanted Harrison Ford or Tom Hanks and they turned it down. Meanwhile, Bob had a bit of cultural clout thanks to The Long Good Friday and an Oscar nod for Mona Lisa, so it was a textbook case of right place, right time.
Now imagine they replaced Bob Hoskins with Whoopi Goldberg.
And Roger Rabbit with a T-rex.
And now you are stuck with the knowledge that Theodore Rex is a remake of Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
You are welcome.
had he been younger, he would have been a great wolverine.
Fantastic actor. Unfortunately for Bob, he also took the Super Mario Brothers gig. I can't imagine taking that role even if you WANTED to ruin your career.
@@cullen4847 alcohol fam
True, but now I really would have loved to see Harrison Ford in that role.
Eddie murphy was orginally asked to play the lead in this movie.. in an interview he says it was one of the only roles he regrets not taking. But i think this was one of the times it worked out for the best since this movie is perfect in so many ways as is.
What KILLS me to think about as an animator is not only are all the characters hand-animated. They're hand animated ON PHYSICALS CELS WITH INK AND PAINT.
The sheer monumental level of effort that went into this movie on a technical level that we never even think about is enough to keep you awake at night.
At the time is was the most expensive movie ever made. Fortunately, it paid off and gave us a classic.
The crossovers in Who Framed Roger Rabbit were a collaboration between companies. Now it's a reminder of how many IPs megacorporations own.
Honestly it's one of the reasons Smash Bros. still has appeal. So many characters are third party that just imagining the red tape Nintendo had to go through just for something like Smash Ultimate to exist as all is mind boggling.
People criticize 80s cartoons for being glorified toy commercials, yet that's what these huge crossovers really are in essence.
@uNnHkP8mza fortnite is easy because it's all SO clearly a cashgrab
Storytime: Bob Hoskins' kid was angry at him after starring in this movie. Later he found out his kid told him that a dad who wouldn't introduce his kid to Bugs Bunny was a real arsehole.
the segment of the space jam 2 rap battle genuinely filled me with rage. that movie is the real life equivalent of the anti-life equation i swear to god
Jay has one of the best, most consistent hair-cuts I have ever seen.
Judge Doom being the toon that killed Eddie's brother is not a conincidence. It's very baked into the plot. The money he stole from the robbery where he killed the brother, he used to buy up all the land in toon town, to facilitate the entire scam. There's a throughline for the entire thing in the story. It's insane how good the script is.
I also love the little touch of the poster of pistol packing possum when RK Maroon dies. The shot of the gun matches the gun on the poster, and the eyes of the possum basically give away who he really is. It's a really great bit.
I understand and knew the connection when Rich said it, but I think I see what Rich meant. It had to be Doom that stole the money and killed anyone that followed him, but it didn't have to be Eddie Valiant that hunted Doom. That said, I think he is wrong. I think it is just tight story telling.
Was the money angle from the robbery mentioned in the movie or was that in the later comics?
@@furtim1
Eddie had a reputation among toons, which is why Roger went to him in the first place.
It's all connected as well as it can be in a movie, especially one like this where most of the time the plot and continuity take a backseat to the gags. Rich sometimes misses a lot of stuff in movies, just watch the "Joker" HitB. He missed the entire civil unrest subplot happening throughout the movie.
Edit: I was reminded that it was Jay who missed the subplot in Joker. My Bad. The rest still stands.
Holy crap, I never noticed the poster before. The fact they hid Dooms identity in a "background" image blows my mind. They even mention in the end of the film "Gee, I wonder who he was?" and as an audience member, that never gets answered unless you pay close attention early on.
@@happytrails151 When Eddie tells Rodger the story of his brothers murder he mentions the robbery. When Eddie's friend from the LAPD let's him on the Acme murder scene he mentions that Doom bought the election to become Judge of Toontown.
one of the most ironic moments in red letter media history is rich evans struggling to pull the word “speakeasy” out of his head, speaking very difficultly.
Who framed Roger rabbit is one of the most intelligent family films I've ever had the pleasure of watching. It's witty, moving, exciting, funny as hell, timeless, it can be rewatched many times, and it isn't so complicated that children can't follow the story or too simple that adults feel like they're watching a kiddies film.
The sad part is that this kind of a movie would be impossible nowadays...
Did you see The Last Wish? Very different tonally, but there are still great animated family movies that everybody can enjoy.
I like this movie and I seen it when I was little and it's my favorite movie from my childhood and it's a good movie but not funny about this movie and it's still a good movie but not funny about this movie and do you agree with me about what I say
I feel like the Daffy and Donald on piano scene might have been inspired by Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keatons pianist and violinist scene in Limelight. Two comedy rivals trying to out do each other on stage
who framed roger rabbit pretty much reinvigorated the american animation industry - it triggered not only all the disney afternoon shows, but also stuff like nickelodeon shows, warner animation like tiny toon adventures and animaniacs, and also a renewed interest in the history of american animation, all the way back to the really old stuff. it also very likely inspired the next thirty years of children to become animators and artists who grew up to make all the more modern shows. it's a really impressive work technically, but it's had a serious cultural impact as well.
Let's also not forget that Disneyland built an entire new section "Toontown" which was inspired by the movie - that's a pretty big pull.
Just look at how stiff 80's cartoons were compared to 90's cartoons.
I was so glad to hear Jay elevate the genius of Warner Bros Looney Tunes above Disney. Bugs Bunny and Daffy and co made me laugh so many times as a child and adult and brought me so much joy. But even as a child, Disney cartoons made me want to puke with their sickly sweet sentiment. Disney was technically brilliant but utterly uninteresting as far as entertainment goes. It's easy to see the Loony Tunes inspiration behind early Spongebob and even The Simpsons and I'd bet the artists behind such works were avid Loony Tunes fans.
@@aarondavis8943 Same here - everyone felt this way, right? As a kid I didn’t really know anything about Humphrey Bogart, Peter Lorre, etc but when their caricatures appeared, I still knew it was creative and funny. It shows the timeless nature of these shorts. I’d put the black and white Fleischer cartoons in the same category.
Donald Duck is the only good thing Disney made. And the Scroodge McDuck comics by Carl.Barks and Don Rosa.
I'm glad Who Framed Roger Rabbit never got a sequel. It's perfect on it's own.
It’s like The Nightmare Before Christmas and The Iron Giant better because it never got a sequel
It's the third and final film in the Chinatown trilogy
The guys have to do a re:View of 'Brazil' from 1985. That movie fits this show perfectly!
there are actually newer Mickey cartoons that are great because they realize that any character who has to spend his entire life never being selfish or even mildly inconveniencing anyone would be a neurotic ball of anxiety issues, and it's hilarious
They also brought back old school jerk mickey from the older cartoons which I loved.
@@toastedt140 Indeed. Mickey Mouse cartoons were awesome before his cartoons were made in color. Check out The Karnival Kid, everybody!
holy shit is this why im the way i am
the new shorts (produced under Paul Rushdie) of Mickey and friends, understands that and how a toony characters should be written.
The characters are both hilarious and at the same time relatable. The characters are written in a way their goals and feelings are serious to them and still they are "toony" and they also knows that.
Mickey is a loveable friend and also a wreck, a ball of stress, on the verge of collapsing and at time he knows and try to change :)
Goofy is totally random, over the top, and because he knows that, he's thankful for his friends.
Donald knows it can explode like a volcano at any minute
and so on.
It also succeeds in giving to Minnie a distinct personality from Mickey...
I agree! I adore the newer Mickey Mouse cartoons, it really gives so much life and personality into all the characters, life that’s been sorely needed as of recent.
In case anyone doesn't already know this, a "cattle call" is how producers refer to the process of casting featured extras and other bit parts open to public audition.
I remember it was a legit movie thing that had zero to do with cows. But couldn't remember exactly what, thanks.
“Mickey would never do something funny” is such a perfect summation.
Actually, over the last decade, we've had a bunch of really excellent Mickey Mouse animated shorts by Paul Rudish. They're actually pretty good, and some of them are actually really funny!
It honestly warms my heart a little that some kids today will grow up remembering quality mickey cartoons from their childhood.
Cultural stagnation
I graduated high school in 88 my dad and I were hanging out, kinda for the last time really, and we went to see this movie. My dad and I LOVE old 30's/40's Warner Bros. cartoons and we laughed like hell during this show. It was the last movie dad and I went to see, he is 82 now and suffering dementia, but he still loves WB cartoons from the Golden Age, and I will always remember seeing WFRR with him.. Thanks, Roger.
The Lego Movie is the only movie that's come close to being this good in terms of the novelty of mixing multiple properties together but still remembering to tell a really good story.
Especially when you see how LAZY the Lego Movie 2 is.
The Lego Movie and The Lego Batman Movie were pretty much the last IP crossover movies to actually be fun, like the whole crossover aspect didn’t even happen in Lego Batman until the last act
the live action segments of the lego movie i’d even argue is one of the strongest aspects to it. they’re short and emotional without being too saccharine and will ferrell has always had the dramatic range to pull those kinds of scenes off. the way i look at it, the lego movie is a family-targeted version of stranger than fiction. same relationship with the fourth wall, same ultimate moral, same importance of sentimentality and sincerity as a filmmaking technique.
I think the Lego Movie's solid, but like the new Chip And Dale one, the message falls apart when you stop to think about who is delivering it. Disney's going to criticise nostalgic rose tinted glasses? And something connected to Lego is going to champion creativity when they've been making very deliberate model kits with not a brick out of place for decades?
@@Joe90h I think Phil Lord and Chris Miller made the message in the lego movie work. If anything, they got away with somewhat criticizing the product they were selling in a way I don't think Lego fully realized.
Boy that Batman review must be amazing if they’re making us wait this long!
I watched this movie so many times as a kid and Christopher Lloyd's character was always the most horrifying and terrifying! The eyes and his melting just so scary! I don't think I've seen it as an adult so I'll definitely need to watch it again.
Remember me edddieeee
Always brings chills down my spine
One little thing I never picked up on when I was a kid, was that after the judge got dipped, they pointed out that it was a rubber mask.
So you never actually see what the toon underneath looked like.
@@st0rmforce it’s implied he’s the hunter who shot Bambi
@@claymathewselevator8121 Not in the film. It was an idea that was dropped and never made it into the final script.
For me it was the voice that made it frightening.
Christopher Lloyd’s scene at the end of the movie was genuinely the most terrifying thing I’d ever seen as a child
This is actually where the term "bumping the lamp" came from: when an artist/animator/team goes above and beyond and delivers something ridiculously amazing.
Yeah, the animators brag about working on that scene
I have never heard that term anywhere in my life but am sure as hell going to start using it as often as possible
Never heard it before. That's awesome
One of the greatest speeches in film history:
"Of course not. You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night. Soon, where Toontown once stood will be a string of gas stations, inexpensive motels, restaurants that serve rapidly prepared food. Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful."
I helped interview Charles Fleischer at a comic convention in CT. I was the cameraman for my Buddy's coverage of the con and we met Charles and attempted to do an interview with him. It was planned and not meant as a gotcha, we had done research and wanted to ask him questions about Roger Rabbit specifically. The interview was going well for a few minutes and he was very well spoken and friendly. Suddenly Fleischer's whole demeanor changed and he turned and looked straight through the camera and into my eyes. "I know who you are...Stop it. STOP IT." Then he just clams up and points at us, backing away and leaving. Never gonna forget that, it was creepy.
@@Scripture-Man i chalked it up to being sleep deprived, or medicated and on a busy schedule...until I saw this video and heard that he may be more than a bit
eccentric
17:51 Rich Evans being familiair with r34 confirms once again that he's hip with what the youth are into these days.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit gave us the ground-breaking technology for merging animation and live-action, that allows us now to see the iconic Rich Evans come to life in these RLM videos
I like how they’ve evolved his animation model. He’s starting to look distinguished.
It's amazing how much this rendition of Rich Evans blurs the line between his current reality as a tragic and real alcoholic, and his unforgettable origins as a buffoonish cartoon character. The animation department deserves an Annie.
@@EricLeafericson the dedication RLM shows to put all of Rich’s beer bottles on strings is really remarkable. They could have just made it all CGI.
My head cannon on why Mickey Mouse is more characteristically "cartoony" in this movie is because much like Disney he's a legit psychopath who will perform whatever role he needs to on camera to make money, but in real life he's soulless and inflicts suffering wherever he can.
AMEN
Yeah, it was established with baby Herman in the first scene that a toon's real personality could be completely different from his performance while working.
That's the south park canon
I'm so glad they mentioned Cool World. I have the biggest love-hate relationship with that film. Like, the dark cartoonish architecture of the buildings were AMAZING. So many shots of this movie belong to a much better story. But it just kinda dissolves into nothingness in the end and kinda breaks a lot of its own rules like they just kinda gave up lmao
Yeah, it's one of those high concept films that has interesting little bits in it but sucks overall. Like it's funny at the end when pre-superstar Brad Pitt turns into a goofy-looking cartoon version of himself.
The best story about Cool World is that it was originally meant to be a much darker and R-rated, but when Kim Basinger came on board, she and the studio wanted to take enough edge out of it so it could be a PG film. Apparently midway through production Basinger told Ralph Bakshi that she wanted to be able to show the movie to sick kids in hospitals.
I can imagine Mike standing behind Jay in the editing room. Mike intensely watching every keystroke until Jay clarifies his "Space Jam" catchphrase.
I always felt that Goofy and Donald were way more likeable because they're flawed, and Mickey's sanitized corporate logo status kept writers from really doing anything interesting with him at all. My generation knows him as the mindlessly smiling Disney World logo, and the younger generation think of him as a CGI toddler character.
"Mickey Mouse Shorts" fixes the blandness in ways that I'm surprised they were allowed to do, but it should not have taken 90 years to make him entertaining.
You're right; Mickey actually was sanitized. At some point (this was when Walt Disney was still alive) he became the corporate logo and they restricted what Mickey was allowed to do. All the "bad" stuff he used to be able to do was reassigned to Donald. The same thing happened to Popeye. He became popular with children so he was toned down, and they introduced Popeye's dad to do all the stuff Popeye used to do that would be a bad influence on kids. (Popeye could still fight, though. They didn't go too nuts toning him down.)
The new Mickey Mouse cartoons definitely fix that. I’ll even argue 2000’s Mickey stuff like House of Mouse fixed that too
In Europe, Mickey is nothing but a logo, but Donald Duck is huge. Like really huge, the Donald Duck comic books released weekly for almost 60 years and Carl Barks and Don Rosa are legends here.
Mickey Mouse was always my favourite, because I don't really like stupid characters as a rule (and while Goofy is likable, he is pretty stupid), and Donald's temper put me off. Thus said, the Mickey I had most contact with as a child was the version from the early shorts (in which Mickey still had his own misadventures instead of always being forced to pay the straight man to the other two) and the Lustige Taschenbücher, in which Mickey was a smart detective (and I LIKE smart characters as a general rule). I was very glad though that in the more recent cartoons Mickey has been allowed to have more misadventures again. And naturally House of Mouse did a great job playing with Mickey's "perfect guy" image.
It’s one of those movies you look at and say “Nobody in the filmmaking industry has the time, money, or drive to make anything like this ever again.”
The french dub can be seen as one step more "meta", the voice actor voicing Roger is the usual french voice actor for Michael J. Fox.
So we have a loony Marty against an evil Doc Brown in another Zemeckis movie - sort of.
I'm sure someone posted somewhere else in the comments, but Jay and Rich were asking if Mickey Mouse was voiced by someone known in the movie. Mickey was voiced by Wayne Allwine, who voice Mickey Mouse from 1977 until he died in 2009, so this movie definitely went all out in getting the actual voice actors to voice the various cameo characters.
Jay is such an attention to detail person, how did he miss on the desk that Eddie and his brother were acrobats, there is a photo of them as kids with their family. So him doing the backflips and such is explained through subtly
Yeah isn't there a bit about their father working in the circus? He has a background in silly theatrics that ties them well into toons.
Because he’s old and has dementia
I think it's kinda part of his character, that he used to be a super fun and easy-going type until his brother was murdered? I thought the woman in the bar makes such a remark...
Did they work as clowns before they were cops?
Unless you're talking about a different part, I believe Jay's issue wasn't that Eddie was jumping around, it was specifically when he jumps too high on the pogo stick and gets his head stuck in the lamp and cartoonishly gets electrocuted.
There will literally never be another movie like this. Who framed Roger rabbit is a once in a lifetime opportunity for such an amazing work of art.
what about MONKEYBONE :^)
@@nepdisc3722 I see you're a man of culture. I saw that movie in theaters at age 12 and I loved it. Fell in love with the cat lady
@@alexanderbrambila8274 monkeybone is a 2/10 film, thus the :^)
That's exactly the thing, it could only come about in this little window between the advent of motion controlled cameras and digital movie making. Before motion control, you couldn't have this dynamic interplay between live action and animation. And ever since digital animation/CGI and non-linear editing took over, there are so many shortcuts available to film makers that there's no way they'd be able to justify sticking to traditional cel animation all the way through. Animators still do great work today and it's never easy, but that hardheaded stylistic purity is a huge part of what makes Roger Rabbit sing (The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down).
@@nepdisc3722 nah I'd give it atleast a 5/10. Perfect weirdo movie for a Sunday afternoon. Or a gift for that furry friend/relative
I watched half of this while folding laundry and they convinced me to turn the video off and watch the entire movie just as a refresher because they made it sound so good all over again.
Rich Evans mentioning Beauty and the Beast a couple times makes me hope that he likes that movie as much as I do. Such a classic Disney animated movie!
That Chip and Dale movie was a production nightmare: 8 years, 3 directors, two different teams of writers and a last minute re-write to replace Pluto with Peter Pan as the villain. Remnenats are still left over from the original plot of creating the “ultimate toon” using different character’s signature features like hair, mouths and accessories which made no sense in the re-write’s plot about making bootleg movies. The plot about toons being kidnapped and the Rescue Rangers trying to uncover who’s behind it actually had promise, but the rest of the movie is just slapping the audience in the face with references, then explaining those references.
Just asking, whats special about creating the "ultimate toon", becuase that seems some shit storytelling in the vein of creating the perfect dinosaur in Jurassic World. What are you accomplishing with creating the ultimate toon, who wins with that?
The bootleg part may be a rewrite, but then, is a better excuse of why someone is actually kidnapping cartoons that plays well with real life happenings (just like toontown being destroyed parallels to motorways and the car mass transit los angeles got in that era).
The bad guy being pluto, completely understand the reference (but then, why also not donald) but damn if it isnt harder to explain in a good manner. And i say this as someone who hates that in the movie chip and dale are kids from the 80's, just to cram some modern school kid cartoon references, instead of actually making them be 1930's kids that then worked with pluto and donald on the disney short, maybe you can make then they went into theater after that and that didnt work, until their gig in Rescue Rangers. I dont even think it would have altered too much the bootleg plot at all, its clear as movie rules go toons do not grow if its not funny for them to grow (like peter pan), just like roger can get out of handcuffs, so it makes sense they stay the same age for nearly a 100 years.
@@SPRidley sounds like toon eugenics to me, makes sense to me if you want to make the evil toons akin to Nazis. Haven't seen the movie, so I'm just guessing.
@@SPRidley Creating the "ultimate toon" is mostly motivation for the villain to kidnap famous toons and excuse to shove as many references into the movie as possible along with some plausible deniability for recognizable characters. But even that is lazily done in the lab, with things like Jimmy Neutron's hair being taken from one of the first google images that comes up when you search Jimmy Neutron hair. I think the kidnapping plot works, but the villain and their motivation needs to match it.
Peter's bit is also kind of fucked when you think about how Bobby Driscoll ended up.
@@kurowasanabe Very much so
This is the last movie (or one of) that my grandma, Lorraine Davis, worked on when she was in the animation dept. at Disney, so it warms my heart to hear the boys hold such a special movie to my personal childhood in high esteem. This movie had heart.
Wow, any behind the scenes deets you could share? 🥺
✨ Animators are truly the unsung heroes of Hollywood ✨
I often think of them when I see hand drawn animated movies - the skill and talent is amazing to me.
Hats off to your grandma and all artists in the animation profession through the ages. 🌹
That's cool
Seriously? That is so neat
That's awesome. Respect.
My favorite line in the whole movie is right after the *horrific* scene where the shoe gets dipped in The Dip, you can hear one of the weasels say
"That's one dead shoe, huh boss?"
The Roger Rabbit shorts: Rollercoaster Rabbit, Trail Mix-Up, and Tummy Trouble are some of the greatest cartoons of all time. If you haven’t seen them, go see them.
I hear that Jack Nicholson was actually one of the casting choices they considered for Valiant before they settled on Bob, which would *really* create some mind-bending confusion with Chinatown. I also heard that Tim Curry was one of the potentials they were looking at for casting as Judge Doom, but the producers thought that his performance would be too scary. In my mind there now lives a version of WFRR starring Jack Nicholson as the depressed alcoholic loser detective, and Tim Curry as the creepy maniacal cartoon villain in another IT-esque performance.
Tim Curry would've been an interesting choice, but I think Christopher Lloyd definitely brings the spook factor in his own right. He's got that creepy gaunt, pale look about him-he always reminded me of Arnold Ernst Toht from Raiders (though that's probably more because of their similar costumes and the fact that they both get melted to death).
I love this alternate universe idea, I'd pay way too much to see it.
Interesring to note that Curry did end up getting the opportunity to deliver a solid performance as an animated villian with FernGully, only 4 years later.
@@tweeeeeex Lloyd is tall as well and this works nicely because he looms over Bob Hoskins. Whereas Curry was roughly Jack's height, probably an inch shorter. There wouldn't have been the same physicality.
Eddie Murphy said he turned down the role as well
Richard Williams along with Ralph Bakshi are some of the unsung heroes of animation. It’s a shame that Williams passed away before what would have arguably been his magnum opus - Thief and the Cobbler - got released
One of the most heartbreaking stories in the world of animation. the assholes who gutted his masterpiece deserve a special place in toontown hell
Honestly wondering if you mentioned The Thief and the Cobbler as one hell of an RLM deep cut reference.
I am glad that the thief and the cobbler has been mostly restored and released on UA-cam for free so that everyone can see it. I love the final confrontation between the thief and cobbler fighting over the the last golden ball and how in the end the thief for the only time in the entire film...just gives us and lets it go cause its just not worth the trouble. its a great character beat and a wonderful conclusion to his arc as this thing just determined to steal everything he can, damned the consequences.
Ralph Bakshi's Wizards is an amazing visual film. Silhouetteing classic movie battle scenes with psychedelic backgrounds is phenomenal. Really suggest checking it out, even if it's a very strange and weird film
@@grover7531 I think most of that drama predates a lot of fans. The channel has grown quite a bit
On the whole Cars universe and them having rebelled against humanity, I can't help but imagine Toe Mater's rampage and that cheery attitude of his.
u guys are definitely my comfort channel
Rest In Peace Richard Williams, the director of animation. I know a lot of people know of his book "The Animator's Survival Kit," but I'd highly recommend it even if you have no interest in actually animating. He covers the history of animation and the industry titans that he worked with as well as a "how-to" on, well, everything. Its worth a read if you're interested in understanding how animating is actually done. "Simple to learn, hard to master" type deal.
I picked it up by accident at my library because it’s so much better than most modern animator guides out there. Serendipity
He was chosen for Roger Rabbit specifically because he was comfortable animating "on ones" (every frame), which made it easier to match his animation to the acting.
100% this, every student at my animation college was issued a copy on the first day as required reading! Truly an inspiration
The Theif and The Cobbler being his biggest legacy for better and worse, he was an absolute one man powerhouse with a mind for animation. RIP a legend
Isn't The Animator's Survival Kit a series of books with a total cost of over $1000? His work is amazing and I'm sure each volume is well worth the cost, since it's basically academic textbooks by a master. I just haven't been able to justify such costs yet personally. If only the internet had come sooner, he probably would have had a popular and lucrative UA-cam channel where information/education is more democratized. But there are others like Jazza with popular 2D animation channels.
The animation director Richard Williams was an amazing animator. He had a talent for making hand drawn animations that look like they're being filmed by a movie camera on a rig, not unlike how CG is handled now. The cartoons in this film are always captured at the correct perspective as the camera moves around the set.
Richard Williams' influence on the animation industry is really difficult to emphasise. Almost every single animation student of the past 15 years has had a copy of his "Animators Survival Kit" on their desk... it's like a bible for animation. I even know high end VFX artists working on Star Wars, Marvel, etc, who all started their journey from learning to animate a bouncing ball from his book.
Special mention to Dale Baer that lead (iirc) the second animation studio working on this movie.
we know.
I’d love a Re:View on The Recobbled Cut
@@jessehcreative Considering who made it, that's probably a no, LOL.
(The guy who made the Recobbled Cut, Garrett Gilchrist, used to be friends with Mike and Jay and had a big falling out with them.)
Videos like this are the reason Redlettermedia continues to remain the best film analysis channel on youtube, point blank.
All of those post-Roger Rabbit mass crossover movies (from Ready Player One to Ralph Breaks The Internet to that Space Jam thing from last year) are basically Jay's joke summary of the Seltzer/Friedberg movies: "oh look, it's the Incredible Hulk! Oh no, he just stepped on Paris Hilton!"
Glad to see Richard Williams getting the recognition he deserves in the comment section. Genius animator, everybody should look at his work for his unreleased magnum-opas 'The Thief and the Cobbler'. Some of the most visually stunning 2D animation ever put to screen.
"Recobbled Cut" specifically. It omits the terrible musical numbers and bad dialogue added after it was picked up for distribution, and reinserts pencil tests of scenes Richard was never able to complete.
I will. Never even heard of it before but looks intriguing
@@pokcow01 interestingly, the guy who made that has some history with RLM. He worked on Gorilla Interrupted with Mike, Jay, and Rich.
@@mawbts530 Oh really? That’s cool!
it's truly insane
This is my favorite movie of all time, so I’ve got a few things to say…
A nitpick about Rich’s nitpick: Doom being Teddy’s murderer AND the villain behind Cloverleaf isn’t a contrived coincidence. The movie states outright that Doom bought the election that made him a judge and it’s heavily implied he did so with the simoleons he stole in the heist the Brothers Valiant were trying to foil. It’s set up and paid off in the script.
As Jay pointed out, the Ink and Paint Club is an allusion to a real life situation at an unfortunate point in our country’s history. Specifically, it is a reference to The Cotton Club in Harlem, and it existed more or less as he described.
To my knowledge, all the recognizable voices in the movie are THE voices. Whoever was voicing those characters in official licensed works at the time, that’s who they got for Roger Rabbit.
The dueling pianos scene was developed in part by Chuck Jones himself. However, he disavowed the film and talked endless trash on it until the day he died. This is because there are two recognized versions of Daffy Duck: there’s the original, wacky, off-the-wall Daffy created by Bob Clampett and there’s the self-important, indignant, “you’re dethpicable” Daffy popularized by Jones. Chuck wanted to use his version for the film but Zemeckis and the rest of the crew wanted Clampett’s Daffy, as they felt he was a better fit for the tone and period of the film. To appease Jones, they allegedly made two versions of the scene, one with each Daffy, promising to use whichever one played better. Of course, they then went ahead and used the Clampett version as they always planned and a lifelong grudge was born.
As for Mickey being mean, I assume he was just smiling and playing along so Bugs wouldn’t big league him. We all no what an insufferable people pleaser that mouse is…
Never knew that about Jones. I agree with Zemeckis, original Daffy definitely fit the tone better, Chuck's Daffy only works when he gets to be the butt of the joke.
Do you happen to know if the alternate Daffy take was ever released?
Even if judge's earlier run in wasn't related to the main plot, it's still not much of a stretch if murderous mastermind toons are a rarity. A detective of all people IS going to have run ins with criminals.
There are a couple of instances in the film where the looney tunes were not Mel Blanc due to his age, The woohoo's for Daffy in the ink and paint club scene was an animator. The second was Yosemite sam, Mel recorded the lines but the audio engineers couldn't quite get it to sound right, so they had Joe Alaskey fill in. Mel Blanc apparently didn't notice it wasn't him.
@@deadpanjelly2913 Yeah, there's a few exceptions. For example, some of Donald's lines in the piano duel are old audio of Clarence Nash, with the rest done by Tony Anselmo, the primary voice at the time. The general rule, though, was that all the AAA voice talent was on board.
Just rewatched with my wife, who’d never seen it. When Acme was killed she said, “was it the same guy who killed Eddie’s brother?” And then when Doom showed up, she said, “Is that the guy that killed Eddie’s brother?” I was like, “are you sure you’ve never seen this?” It’s just a simple story, but the effort is what made it.
"They had to build a platform 8 feet high for Jay to stand on so he looked normal height next to Rich, Mike, and their guests."
When I first saw Roger Rabbit in the theater, a young girl started crying so much when Judge Doom dipped the shoe in The Dip, that her mother had to take her from the theater and they never came back. I always think about that when watching this movie and feel sorry for her. It was a strange movie to try to guess if you could bring your kids or not.
Fox and the hound! I remember going into the washroom following and sobbing and another woman trying to comfort me
Honey I shrunk the kids was the first movie I saw in the theater as a child and I cried so much when that damn Scorpion killed the Ant, but my mom was mindful enough to tell me to shut the hell up because I disturb the other viewers.
So I just cried in silence like a good citizen.
In retrospect it seems like that wasn't the best parenting, haha.
Ah childhood, I miss you.
@@Bensonders Nooo I had completely forgotten about Anty, and you just reminded me. Damn you feelings.
I remember my sister absolutely bawling her eyes out when it seems like the old dogs not gonna make it in Homeward Bound. There's probably an argument that older kid's media was better at letting kids feel a wider range of emotions like fear and grief in a safe environment.
@@eblatz80 yes, first movie I ever cried to!
When I was in like 7th grade Charles Fleischer had a website called monkey dog. It was an awful little geocities style thing. But there was his email address there. I told him I loved Roger rabbit and he sent a very nice response telling me about a planned sequel involving ww2 and nazis. Definitely a strange guy (why i like him) but I'll never forget that and how nice that was of him.
There was a real script with this plot called Roger Rabbit II: The Toon Platoon. Spielberg refused to sign onto it because how it cartoonishly depicted Nazis.
The Fat Albert movie also has some interesting cartoons and reality interaction; with a clear break between realities, but a fuzzy break (and thus advancement) of their personalities.
As a 9 year old whe Space Jam came out, I thought it was great in terms of fun which I contribute to the music and the Looney Toons. I knew the story was stupid and the acting was poor. As an adult, I could probably still enjoy watching it knowing it will be bad. I 100% agree that Who Framed Roger Rabbit gets better with each viewing and you appreciate it more as an adult.
Watching the behind-the-scenes footage, I can never tell if Charles Fleischer is legitimately insane... or if he's just fucking with everyone because he knows everyone else _thinks_ he's insane. Either way, his interviews for the movie are absolutely hilarious because he's so damn serious about it... while wearing a cartoon rabbit suit.
There's a bit on Norm MacDonald Live (his UA-cam talk show) where they talk about Fleischer and Norm's sidekick Adam Eget thinks Fleischer's a bit crazy after dealing with him at his (Adam's) comedy club.
I think it's possible to both be clever enough to play up your craziness while also being genuinely crazy, almost like Andy Kaufman
I was told that "swing the lamp" became a winged word among animators. It is supposed to mean that an animator always should try to overshoot the boundaries of animation.
Yes, there were a number of hard rules that animators held to in having interactions between animated and live action characters. Fixed camera, flat lighting, characters didn't move around each other, characters didn't touch each other, the angle of the lighting never changed, etc. The creators of Who Framed Roger Rabbit made a point of breaking every one of those rules just so they could push the art as far as possible.
kaptainkristian made a high quality video about doing this animation the hard way, explaining the term and idea.
@@geozop ha, yes! had thought i heard it from somewhere else but i definitely picked this up from our kaptain too!
I love the mickey and bugs scene because it exemplifies their personalities and while brief is something that only could happen because two mega corps shake hands
I’m so glad they have never replaced the voice artist who performs Rich Evans.
They cast Amy Irving as she was both 1) great for the role and a talented singer and 2) just so happened to be Spielberg's first wife
In terms of profit, Roger Rabbit was the actual start of the Disney renaissance. It literally saved the studio (for better or for worse)
Best being the 90’s animation studios
Worst being everything after that (except for Tron legacy)
@@eleSDSU different strokes for different blokes
ones man suckage is anothers particular pleasure.
@@eleSDSU I can’t imagine out of all of Robert Valley’s animated projects, someone would choose Tron Legacy over Motor City
Yep. Little Mermaid gets too much credit.
I remember watching the making of this film and it felt like a labor of love more than anything. Plus Super Mario is the main character.
Avatar: Huge Box Office hit, massive budget, no cultural impact
Morbius: Bombed so hard it bombed twice, massive cultural impact
@uNnHkP8mza its a perfect way to summarize how predictable entertainment has become, the main character came on screen and did his thing and then he said "is x-thing time " and everyone clapped because they know what that is... VERY COOL.
A classic. One of the most well-structured scripts in film history. So many little setups that get paid off. Every joke lands. Brilliant.
"Fuck Mickey Mouse."
You mean Space Jam: A New Legacy?
@@drobinson-uo7ic definitely not
I'm half way through and worried they won't mention Richard "Thief and the Cobbler" Williams. That guy's animation direction is so much of why this film works.
Read the full expanded description on the video lol.
@@itsd0nk oh 😆 thanks for drawing my attention to that
@@Orgotheonemancult their amazing and sneaky editing skills even apply to their description text on so many videos 😂
The third act of this movie used to give me actual nightmares when I was a child. The wild eyes, the voice, the giant saw arm....still kinda freaks me out
I watched this on repeat so much as a toddler in the early 90s, some of my family members could no longer stand it. I was given a Roger Rabbit doll for my 4th birthday and loved him so hard he fell apart and had to be replaced. I still have the replacement, who shows his age and wear.
Guess I gotta rewatch this movie again!
Jay mentioning "Chinatown", I swear. I just watched it for the first time a few months ago and when Nicholson shows Paulie the photos of his wife cheating on him and he gets all upset I started shouting "PATTYCAKE!! PATTYCAKE!!" Lol.
It's not a stretch when Eddie does all those circus acts in the third act because during the slow pan scene you see that him and his brother were part of a performing act. Eddie knew how to entertain and do acrobatic acts.
Nitpick absolutely but I adore you guys for reviewing this film. It's special in the hearts of many of us and I love this film so much. Just wanted to contribute the logic in the film and I'm sure there's a hundred comments already pointing out what I already did.
Eddie and his brother were almost like toons themselves which is why they were so in tune with them and worked well with them. Part of the tragedy of Eddies brother's death was that he cut himself off from that part of himself.
Yours was the first I saw on this point
Roger Rabbit: "Not anytime! Only when it was funny." is one of the best lines ever. At the time, in the theater, I was guffawing and crying and missed the next segment because I couldn't recover. Still tickles me!
The amount of effort that went into the tiniest of details. Rewatched it today with my parents and it holds up magnificently.