That whole beginning section, I knew games were implementing trendy mechanics that didn't belong to them and slowly move away from their identity, but damn I didn't notice it to THIS degree. Games are truly just stealing from each other at this point.
yeah I think all mainstream games are looking at other franchises with eyes shining with envy and mouths watering. No doubt about it they are getting greedy and it's affecting their game design. FF16 is just a really amusing turn in this trend as it is a larger genre, RPG, trying to scoop up a rather small audience, character action games ha. I get the feeling that this will be a one off experiment though, as the cost of alienating too many rpg fans, though I find it interesting, will probably hurt the sales of the game ultimately.
@@neonjm8289 Blizzard was the king of taking 'inspiration' from other games and polishing the gameplay and quality for a more casual audience to make top tier games. All their biggest games are the result of seeing a developer make a game and thinking "We can do that too, in our own way" and thus we have the Warcraft, Diablo and StarCraft franchises come into existence.
24:42 This has been confirmed to be the case by the devs. FFIV's combat designer Hiroyuki Ito has openly stated that the ATB system was introduced to increase the excitement and intensity of battles. Moreover, he wasn't the game's original combat designer - that was Hiromichi Tanaka, who had worked on game design for the first three entries. He had likewise intended for the game to have more action-oriented combat than the previous games, although his proposals were deemed too radical a shift at the time, so he moved over to work on the Mana series instead to implement his ideas there. Ito was a mentor for a lot of other influential people to work on the series, including Nomura, who had continued to apply his design philosophy. For FFX-2 Nomura and Kitase's team clearly felt confident enough to push the ATB system further and make it faster, which they then used as a base for the heavily modified version used in XIII and XIII-2 (my favourite iteration of ATB), while Ito had forked it in his own direction for FFXII, which retains slower than the XIII series but places greater emphasis on positioning.
What a fantastic and informative comment Duke!! Yes I love to read this sort of stuff because this tension in the series between action combat and turn based combat is so fascinating and usually FF fans tend to side with the turn based combat side of things, whereas i'm more partial the action combat ideas ha. At some point on the channel I'd love to have a larger discussion on the role of gameplay in rpg, because it still feels very up in the air.
@@TheElectricUndergroundIn regards to turn based FF fans, the cutoff point for the series is generally regarded as X-2. For some reason they consider the pure turn-based combat of the first three to be more or less interchangeable with the older ATB games, but the versions used from X-2 to XIII-2 make too many concessions to action games for their liking. Then of course you have the move away from ATB towards purer action game combat between Lightning Returns and XVI that is even worse in their eyes. To be fair I can understand their frustration, since the series has gone 20 years now without making enough concessions to keep them happy, and to rub salt in the wound there are no satisfactory high-budget alternatives to turn to aside from Dragon Quest, which itself has threatened to go in a more action-oriented direction for DQXII. They've effectively gone two decades without _any_ major Japanese company - not limited to just Square Enix - giving them what they want.
@@dukeofhmph6348Well there are the Atlus games and SMT, right? I’m also sort of puzzled no one has mentioned VII Remake in the comments here, only because its combat seemed to garner pretty broad approval in general.
If it was a boomer shooter it might be good. A good boomer shooter slash survival horror is system shock. Give the remake a whirl. Oh make sure to print out a strat guide for it off of game faqs. Your going to need it.
LOL has there ever been a good Jap boomer shooter though? Even that Splat-Toon crap boring as hell & too basic to me. I thought Metroid Prime was the best Japanese FPS only to find out that it's made by the same Brits who did the N64 Turok games. Prime Space Pirates actually juke & flank you unlike every other Jap shooter. I don't count Vanquish, that's an action game with guns.
this is unironically the best review of a game i've ever seen. at least it was my favorite. I watched many reviews of FFXVI before this one, but only after watching this I finally feel like I understand what experience i would have, which should probably be the goal of all reviews.
I'm very happy to hear that lucy :-) Yes I do try my best to get to the heart of the game design and I'm glad my analysis was useful! I think a lot of reviewers are sort of caught up in the legacy of the series a bit to where it is harder to take the game's individually, which is what I try to do.
I personally am a Souls gamer, and I want games to have that same simplicity and dodge canceling, difficult, I-framing goodness, but I don't want every genre to become Souls, I want turn based, action, adventure, puzzle, platforming etc. Genre games to exist, because they each have their own character and niche. I'm not interested in FFXVI because it seems not to have made a specific choice with what it wanted to be, character-action? Or story based RPG? If it had made a stronger choice, I'd be more willing to try it.
oh this is a great point charles. I agree that what I like about the souls games is their emphasis on fundamentals of combat, frames and hitboxes. However, like you say, I think devs are being way too derivative and literally just copying souls as a formula. Whereas what they should be doing is analyzing why souls works (the fundamental combat) and then incorporating that design concept into their games. Devs used to do this once upon a time ha.
I believe it :-) team ninja baby. I m gonna try it soon, but still it being a spin off game is a bit less crazy, at least economically, than ff16 a mainline entry going so hard in the action direction
As a fan of various RPG franchises with very different structures and gameplay mechanics, I can tell you that there is a serious divide within the community regarding Story V.S. Gameplay, and it stems from the fact that many franchises _actually do put gameplay over story._ Some examples that you might be interested in checking out could be: • The Romancing SaGa / SaGa Frontier games. • The Shin Megami Tensei games (not to be confused with the more popular subseries Persona; mainline SMT is far more gameplay focused). • The Grandia games. • Almost all Dungeon Crawlers (like Etrian Odyssey and Wizardry). • Many western CRPGs (like Divinity Original Sin 2 and Pillars of Eternity). • Many Strategy RPGs (like Fire Emblem 5 through 12 and, funnily enough, the two portable sequels to Final Fantasy Tactics). • And I have the feeling that you might enjoy Final Fantasy 5 more than most entries in the series, since it's the biggest example of gameplay over story in the entire franchise. Lots of customization and a decent challenge. You should check some of these suggestions. Maybe you could find something that mixes well with your game preferences, Mark. 😎👍
Oh for sure, one rpg series I enjoy (until Stupid 3 houses) is fire emblem because it s just get right into the tactical combat and it s not too stat heavy. My issue isn't so much turn based combat is combat that involves a lot of inventory and stat management and of course any fetch questing
As more towards a RPG player, I appreciate the "pointing where you should go next" feature. So that I could avoid that direction and explore other nook and crannies without accidentally triggering the next phase sequence.
I always love seeing you branch outside of shmups and bringing that "game mechanics brain" to other genres. I'd love to see a video on the Vampire Survivors craze that's going around, given how many comments I've seen from casual non-shmups players about how they're similar to bullet hells. Would be cool to have a real shmups expert weigh in, haha
I don't think adding a global cooldown is a good idea, that would make comboing using special moves bad. They should do the opposite, lower damage specials with way lower cooldowns to encourage combos and using the moves at specific times. Global cooldowns wouldn't fix a current issue where you open every fight with a screen clear move and then the fight's over, by the next fight that screen clear is back. With elites at half stagger they could've allowed juggling with a super moves. It would encourage using supers that do more than just damage and make fights more dynamic. Maybe juggling like that builds bonus stagger on a downed enemy who's stagger meter has come back, that way there's an aspect of risk and reward. Those are the two biggest issues for me, overpowered supers and unreactive elites.
You could absolutely be right here Jim. I admit I didn't explore the special move meta as much as I could have because them being OP annoyed me so much that my first thought was, get rid of these suckers ha. But you are probably right that since the combat system is so heavily designed around them, maybe making them less special and more just moves in general would be a reasonable solution.
This comment is coming almost a year late but I hope as a long-time RPG fan I can answer your question about what an RPG is and where it falls as far as a story or a game. I think the definition that most will agree with is that an RPG is defined by its progression. Stats, leveling up, abilities, magic, equipment, all part of its core design. That sounds like RPGs are gameplay with stories attached. However, all RPG video games share one common ancestor: Dungeons and Dragons, which I'd argue is a storytelling form that uses gameplay to compliment. The DM is a narrator and the players interject their contributions to the story. The dice rolls and character management is simply a way to include risk and raise the emotional stakes. Furthermore, considering how the father of console JRPGs Yuji Hori made Dragon Quest by blending his prior game, a visual novel, with D&D, I think RPGs are more stories with games attached. But these games can ride the line very closely. So few reviewers understand the abstract systems of video games that it makes me sad that you don't like RPGs. We need more reviewers like you. I love RPGs for both their story and their gameplay, but so many reviewers simply list gameplay mechanics and never analyze them, and RPGs can't get better if we don't have legitimate criticism for their gameplay. Anyway hope this answers your question 1 year too late haha.
the thing the I felt when I played FFXVI is that they really wanted to abandon the rpg elements and just wanted to go full action game, but for obligatory purposes, they were forced to put some sort of rpg element.
Completely agree with that. It felt a little half baked in some areas where the RPG elements seem forced. I’m genuinely enjoying the storyline, and even the combat grew on me as I played. I’m about 70% through the game and the pros have made up for the flaws for me.
I completely disagree with that given the Producer/Director's track record, which I don't know why anyone covering this game would just choose to ignore, including all of the interviews with him. Naoki Yoshida was in charge of directing Final Fantasy XIV and while it gained popularity and became a success by flat out copying WoW(seeing a trend here?) it also meant that, in an attempt to gain mass popularity, that is to say, attract a newer casual audience, he would end up streamlining and removing anything that would resemble an RPG(it sounds way more similar now huh). Gear with minimal stats, treadmills that do nothing for you character or the world that take a long while to fill up, jobs that are very similar to one another. Linear story with zero role-playing to do, no customization at all ever aside from visual. He's the great streamliner. The lack of RPG mechanics is completely intentional, not something he bargained for. Just enough to be an RPG but not quite enough to have any depth.
I feel like RPG levelling mechanics is a crutch devs use to make players who don't want to get better at the games they play still like their game. The illusion of getting better via your avatar can do more stuff/does more damage/has more health/etc. vs. the player themselves getting better at navigating the game with the toolset they start out with at the opening of the game and learning how to effectively manipulate their strengths and weaknesses as the levels twist and bend the rules to force a reaction out of the player...i.e. that reaction that best be made is 'get better, figure out why you're losing and turn it into a win'.
I don't know if you'll read this, since the video is older, but I'm a huge fan of FFXVI, and I also oddly enough like to read what other people thought and see things from a different perspective. Watching your review was great and it actually helped me get even better combos off in my gameplay! Seeing you show the cancels really opened up a whole new move-set in the later game and I'm on my NG+++ and still discovering new techs and new options for combos. If there was anything I could change about the game it would be 2 things. 1. For the Ultimaniac mode to be available as a fully fledged campaign difficulty, that would really push the edge to many players in regards to difficulty. 2. For the cooldowns to go away and have them be triggered by combinations the player makes in the inputs. (Phoenix Shift can still be triggered by the ability button, but the rising flame can only be triggered by holding back on the control stick and pressing x and square, and by buffering x you can jump to continue the string combo) You can still limit the loadout to 3 Eikons, but now you can have access to all the abilities from those eikons without having to worry about the mapping of those abilities to just 2 buttons and instead open it up to the player to use the full kits of the eikons via their player inputs. In a perfect world I would love the ability to use all of the moveset at my discretion, but I think the above wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. Anyway, thank you for your review, I loved it, even if I didn't agree on it all, and at the end of it, I learned something new, thank you!
Nice review, as a long time oldschool Final Fantasy fan who didn't even bother anymore with most new entries, this one catched my interest and I got it right away. Have not started it yet apart from the demo a few weeks before. I feel like I'm a bit in a strange place since I do enjoy both hardcore RPGs with lots of management and slow pace (like not even only console stuff like SMT or similiar, but even extremely deep text-heavy tactical CRPGs such as Divinity or Baldurs Gate) but also can put a lot of time in Arcade stuff from fighting to shooting to rhythm. I do get though where you're coming from. And basically, I think it comes down to "does this game respects the players time". I like fast action, but also slow paced story moments. I mean even after years of playing them, I still sometimes enjoy watching character intros and story stuff in old SNK fighting games because they are so lovingly created and enjoyable. But those things need to be entertaining or/and well done or/and optional. There's game design which gives you lots of interesting little things to interact with and then there's needless grindy filler or making the player waste time. Like badly written sidequest dialogues which I guess many a JRPG can be accused of .. Anyway, looking forward to start FF16 up soon!
Fantastic comment!! Absolutely the golden rule is respecting the players time, I think if devs use that across the board genre wise that is a great starting point ha
Back in the day, I chose Demon’s Souls over Dragon Age Origins for my PS3. As a Bioware fan, I know I missed-out, but I have zero regrets in embracing Demon’s Souls. I wanted that merciless, realtime combat and unguided exploration so bad. RPGs needs variety beyond its bounds, but not beyond its means. Jade Empire, BG: Dark Alliance, Diablo 2, Tales-of, YYYs, Mass Effect, I mean…. Is it really the End of Days for RPG fans who have been embracing these changes for several, several years already? I don’t think it’s the fusion of genres that’s the issue I see. It’s the gentrification of overused game mechanics, that become too vanilla to taste different overtime, like… the new Avatar game Ubisoft is making. It looks waaaay too much like a FarCry clone for my tastes, complete with Outpost/Stronghold reprints of game design. Too safe, too samey. The immersion is more in the aesthetics than in the gameplay. Tangent aside, great video. Made me think about a lot of stuff here. Like Final Fantasy: Adventure on my GameBoy. Played just like Zelda. And that was 1991. I just think that the variety of RPG game design has been there for a good while. Why the fire? Lol.
Oh yes the souls series is such a strong fusion of rpg and character action because even though the combat is slower, it is still really fundimental as is emphasizing spacing and frame data. The reason why nioh is my fav souls game is that it takes that concept, but then adds in more character action elements like cancels (ki pulse) and just speeds combat up generally
@@TheElectricUnderground What you observe about the combat cancels in-particular with Nioh, Wanted: Dead, and FFXVI are really interesting. Spacing and frame data is the kind-of talk about fighting games. To me, Nioh is the ultimate example of how-to make a technically-proficient fighting game in Souls' form. And I JUST found-out about the complex tiers of New Game + for Nioh 2. They are truly a step above anything Soulslike that I've ever seen in-terms of gameplay complexity. And as a passionate fan of Chanbara films, I couldn't be happier with what's out there today for video games of this ilk. I'll be very much looking forward to your thoughts on Rise of the Ronin when it drops.
when it comes to story vs gameplay in RPGs i also wanna add that i feel like open world games and story games and rpg games are separate. (although most of the time mixed for them sweet review scores and hype) i think a good example of an open world game has to be morrowind since it is essentially just a 3d wikipedia with hyperlinked dialogue system, where the player is some anonymous non-entity that transparently explores a fictional 3d world, where the story only exists to compound on the lore (while in most other media lore is a justification for the story), similarly combat system only exists to compound on the lore: its very clear in the lore that magic is OP and so in morrowind you eventually either have to use enchanted weapons or learn magic.
Final Fantasy/RPGs gameplay vs story: I think combat is a minor reason to play these games. It always has been for me. Combat was not the primary thing that made me have fun. Even when I was a young child and played Zelda or Mario the thing that got me hooked was less the way I interacted with enemies, because I was bad at that. The challenge did not hook me. It was the ability to see more of the levels. Really, often just visually seeing more of the game world was my primary motivation, getting to experience some cool thing that only happens once you reach a specific stage (the chime and celebration of defeating a Zelda boss, getting a heart container). When FF7 and 8 and 9 dropped I was not in it to play with Materia, GF junctions or whatever. I wanted to see 3D worlds and move around in them and feel like I was living in that world. I wanted to enter a train and ride it somewhere, I wanted to go into a casino and play mini games, I wanted to ask strangers if they want to play cards, I wanted to seek out chocobo, tame them, breed them and ride them, I wanted to have an airship and see every little bit of ground texture there was to find in that polygon world, enter every hidden location and see what's in there. Over time my tastes grew into other areas, mostly because the illusion of being in a game world became less and less obtainable for me. So I learned to settle for other stuff like learning to enjoy optimizing speed/score/damage output/control. A lot of the things arcade games are known for are definitely fun to me now, I got good at some of them. But the kick I get out of any of that is nowhere near what my childhood self got out of the fantasy of living in a video game world. So I fully expect that some people get A LOT out of experiencing the passive elements like cutscenes and stuff. I don't anymore. But man, they can pack a punch.
In a year filled with disappointing AAA titles FFXVI set a new standard in awful non-games 🤷♂️ most of the interaction (such as it is) happens something like this: watch a cutscene somewhere between 3-10 minutes in length, these cutscenes will often consist of two or three static figures talking at one another without lip sync, walk or run forwards towards a marker, open a door or gate (this often requires a quick time event for some reason) have a fight, which on the normal difficulty (the highest that can be selected for a first playthrough) will be so easy that it can be won with only two buttons, watch a cutscene 3-10 minutes long and repeat. It is the most miserable slog of a game I have experienced in quite some time, the only positive contribution it has made to the franchise is that it makes FFXV look like some sort of rpg masterpiece by comparison.
I can def feel where you are coming from, I do think if you are a veteran of the series it's gonna be a thumb in your eyeball (hence the title of my vid ha). For me though, I never watch cutscenes, so no worries for me in terms of story, and yeah the combat is much too easy in my book. I think I beat 2/3rds of the game without ever dying ha. But why I am a bit more open minded to this release is that I do like the concept and I do think the fundamental design of the combat is well made. It's just that they have the tuning of the system way off with being too easy and the summons being way too OP. But this is also the case with Bayonetta 3 and frankly a lot of character action games (which I will critique as well). So it does also feel a bit selective to let DMC and bayo off the hook for very similar issues but specifically smack down FF16 due to it being under scrutiny more. But yes, the game clearly needs a big re balance with difficulty and summon damage/cooldown.
My sentiments exactly. I’m about to fight Odin and I got bored as hell. Grinding the battle pass in Street Fighter 6 is actually more enjoyable than watching what I’m sure is going to be an epic battle, filled with exactly 30,000 button presses and maybe a cheap death while I learn the boss pattern.
0:10 that genre of game is the award or goty genre. Interesting analysis I still need the game for PC as I hate Sony but, this game caught my attention, did you play the DLCs? FF is easier until you find those mytical soab Bahamut, Virtue, Omega they are hell.
Coming back to this nearly a year later. I really enjoyed this take on FF16. I loved it for the most part. I'll concede that it's a little to easy for a game this long but it didn't bother me. The only major complaint I have is on the games pacing. I'll never understand putting not one but two full chapters of filler in-between two of the biggest story beats in the game. Just a weird choice and definitely a miss there.
I'm glad my review has connected with you because it's a unique perspective on the game I think ha, and I agree that the game could have been something extremely cool if they had tightened up the pace more and then balanced the spells at the end to be less OP so that the melee combat stayed more central :-)
@@TheElectricUndergroundthe arcade mode and new kairos gate mode are really fun to play and even push the leaderboards. Leaderboards for individual stages is such a great idea, going for top 100 in all of them got me into playing score attack games
22:17 it's always been interesting (and somewhat annoying) to me how so much emphasis has been put on the story-side of video games in recent years. It's almost as if people conceive of video games now as vehicles to tell a story, rather than anything like, I dont know, have decent gameplay, be fun etc?. I remember watching a video review of Ninja Gaiden II here on TY, and the thing the guy spends most time on is the game's story... Who the F*** plays NG2 for the story? lol.
indeed! What's funny is that clearly FF is looking for a crossover audience of action game players, I am in that crossover audience, so I thought it would be interesting to view the game from the criteria, especially since RPG oriented critics tend to dominate the review space to begin with. So I think the idea of making a crossover FF game is cool, it's just a question of if they pull it off or not ha.
RPGs are not about gameplay or story. The dogma that those are the only two sides of the coin puts us on improper footing right from the start. RPGs are about immersion. To actually role-play, you should feel immersed in the world, as though you are the character. Not merely controlling the character, but experiencing what they are experiencing through their eyes. And I'm not talking literally (first-person view), but things they might feel too. Certain RPGs do e.g. skits between the characters, like Tales of Symphonia or FF15. (they're still really limiting, but FF15 at least gives you one or two dialogue choices) These skits are not directly about the story/plot, but what the characters are individually thinking. To role-play, you should have a lot of influence here. (Lionhead/Fable, BioWare, Bethesda, and Obsidian, do more in this area than Japanese-style RPGs) It's not a movie reel to experience. It's not baddies that need to be punched. It's about exploring the world, finding/acquiring new gear in ways that complement the lore of the world. Lore (history, culture) is more important than story (directed plotline) in a real RPG. It should not feel like a game. It should not feel like a movie. Kind of like how VR is its own medium. Real RPGs feel like their own thing. But necessarily these are video games and so it's unlikely you'll get a totally pure RPG experience. But there are lots of various elements in various games that get really close to that magic sauce. Very nice review. It's so rare to see a review _actually_ do some analysis, and go beyond surface-depth.
I don't quite get you. You can't cancel your attacks in any dmc except for some rare examples like those multi-hits in Rebellion combo B. You certainly can't cancel any of you finishers. You can only cancel things in air via enemy step, that's it. The only thing that you can call cancellable is your recovery frames, but that goes for any action game really.
When I saw the trailer for this I thought it looked pretty good. Haven't checked it out yet but might do! Do feel a bit more convinced after this video aha. I always wonder whether cancels are intentional or forgot to be patched out. I remember playing a game on the PSP back in the old days which was live action think it was called crisis core. Although I'm not that big of a fan of being able to just follow rotation in a game and just use that same rotation over and over.
yeah it is funny when you have to try to figure out if the combat system is intended to have cancels, or if they are looked over lol. Typically there are signs though, like in ff16 the fact that the string continues is a good sign that they are intentional.
For me, there is no reason gameplay and story need to be separate with one being the focus over the other. But if I had to nail down and point at a singular part of RPGs that makes it through all of these games and that makes them worthwhile to play it would be ROLE-PLAYING. That is, even though I am using the protagonist, I am choosing how to play. I'm adapting the party to my playstyle or executing a specific strategy, for flavor or for function, because I want to do it. The game provides the tools for me to play how I want, I can tackle the side quests I want, I can go wherever I want. I'll obtain something or perhaps even unlock a whole new character with its own new set of variables and it will all be my choice to do so. I think that's what RPGs are or should be about. If you think about it, FF games with little to no choice, or variance, or 'role-playing' were received very poorly. FF13 practically massacred the series. FF15 was also a joke for most people because the open world was weak and offered little to no role-playing. I also put FF14 in there, one of the worst MMORPGs to poison the genre. FF16 seems to follow this awful trend with the Director Naoki Yoshida streamlining things that are too complicated (too Japanese) out of this game as well (just like he did with FF14) in 'an attempt to gain a younger audience'. Just look at the sales for this particular game, people aren't having this pseudo-RPGs in their Final Fantasy anymore. Did you play Stranger of Paradise? That game is everything I would expect a Final Fantasy action RPG to be. Great story, great gameplay, VERY in-depth RPG mechanics that actually improve the gameplay rather than get in the way of combat. It's a very nice Nioh-like in terms of mechanics but with the classic classes from FF.
Thanks for this. For some reason I just fucking love this game, to an unreasonable degree, but anytime I look on UA-cam it’s all videos like “disappointing… what went wrong”. I know the game has its issues but dammit I just wanna indulge my hyperfixation on a game by sitting down and listening to a positive long form video on it sometimes. Odin splits the damn ocean in half how can you not like how over the top this game is people? Lol
as for gameplay focused rpgs i highly recomend the megami tensei games post nocturne,you will most likely dislike persona for the higher focus on story and simplyfied gameplay but the main line series,specially nocturne,have a insanely deep combat system where every mechanic intaracts with one another,nothing is railroaded like most jrpgs(not even your party members)nor does the game cares if you haven´t learned the combat system and will heavily punish you for playing dumb
That's really cool, yes I'm seeing this series being recommended in the comments a lot so I'll have to check it out :-) I do remember there was a fire emblem crossover at some point? So that would make sense that the game is more tactical than something like persona.
Thank you very much Riff! I heard it's coming to PC and stuff later on though, so no hurry ha. Maybe by that time some of the combat balance will be patched up too.
I'm into both action games and RPGs. I've finished several FF, SMT and DQ games, and I've finished several action games to 100% completion such as DMC4, Vanquish, and DMC5. It honestly feels like FFXVI was made for me. It has fun gameplay coupled with a cheesey yet enjoyable story. Personally, I'd love to see the framework of FFXVI to be used to make a Vampire Hunter D game complete with the potential of crazy bosses. Only issues for me is that it's too easy and the structure in certain points of the game (like the Mid quests) were pretty bad. I'll say this. Regarding the mechanic where the camera would zoom into where you need to go, it's not too big of an issue. Reason for that is it's pretty common for modern RPGs to have waypoints. So is there really a difference between the camera zooming into to where you need to go and some mini-map telling you where to go? Not really.
Yes the game is really aimed at that crossover audience which I don't even know is a good business move ha, but it is a pretty cool concession made to action game players. But absolutely they made the game too easy and the balance needs work, as you can just steamroll most the game with special attacks midpoint onward. Also good point on the camera navigation ha
Thank you for the very detailed review (as usual)- i still haven't bought FFVI, as my PS5 broke a couple of months back, but that's clearly the first game i'll buy in tandem with a new PS5.
No problem my friend!! Yeah FF16 is a pretty cool sweetspot for people who like character action games and are interested in some FF graphical goodness ha. i just hope the rebalance the combat soon so that summon spam isn't so strong and central to the combat by the end.
Perfectly summarized video of my experiences. I feel bad watching people make long combos because eventually it's a detriment since Eikons start pumping out crazy damage/stagger (wtf does Impulse do so much, Jesus) making combos wholly inefficient, FFXVI/Bayonetta comparison was very good, it's the reason why I prefer Bayo 2; summons are too OP (Tarantula self-nuke to clear most waves is pretty efficient) and/or it sends enemies flying too much. I think the main value of RPGs is that most RPG players like doing Strategy etc and finding the most optimal solutions etc but I will always prefer skills over having to min/max builds and the like. At least for me, I'd rather die to skill issues than because RNGesus doing OHK moves constantly, running out of items, money/exp grinding etc. I value efficiency the most when I play and Action Games offer that more than some RPGs. PS. I hate Animation Locks, I still wonder how I beat NG1 when I was younger....
I would be willing to bet that this move into some heavy action game design will not continue ha, I think this is more of an isolated incident in the series and ff17 will return to turn based combat.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yes, I think it will go back after this one. We still got FF Remake 2 on the way tho, lol. What is your twitter? I just made a video and shouted you out in it.
As someone who cannot stand the vast majority of RPGs aka interactive generic stories, this is definitely something of interest to me. Will RPG fans like a game that actually requires a little skill though? 😂
I have no idea who dj420 praise it is, but i always listen out for it in the Patreon shout outs it's just funny how his name gets extra hype in your voice.
I appreciate you sir. You convinced me to not get the RE4REMAKE,and you’ve now convinced me to get FF16. I will admit I was hesitant with this one,as FF15 was an auto one button game,and FF7 REMAKE was good,but too linear.
I agree with about 99% of what you’re saying here but the only place where I’d disagree is what turn based games feel “prescribed”. If you only play bland turn based games like Pokémon or Dragon Quest or dare I even say most traditional FF games (please don’t shoot me commenters) But there are plenty of other turn based series that deal with turn manipulation, buffing/debuffing and other things to juggle that make every “turn” feel incredibly important and decisive. It’s just annoying because the very simplistic and bland ones get pushed to the top, the ones where it’s just; attack, attack, heal. Anyways, great video otherwise I just wanted to comment on that one part.
Oh i cant hear this anymore.. RPGs from Japan and Final Fantasy need to be turn based in order to be a RPG? F*Ck that for that ignorance, for real... a "The Witcher 3" can bea realtime and no one cries about the "deepness" of this combat.. FF16 still has strategy in the combat.. not to talk about side quests to explain the world more.. or character and monster levels to make this still a rpg..
this is the discussion that I do want to have about on this channel pretty soon actually, like nailing down at least in fans minds, what core rpg mechanical design is, because right now I think it's really unclear.
im a big action game fan and a disillusioned lifelong final fantasy fan, and ironically what convinced me to play this game is your point that the game has a level-like map. i can't stand open world games and i feared this would be another like XV. i can go ride my motorcycle for 45 minutes in real life and it will be MORE fun than any in-game exploration. i can't fight a dragon in real life. i don't want to spend 45 minutes riding a fake motorcycle with the hope of maybe finding a dragon to fight. hope that makes sense
Oh man I will never forget how mgs5 insisted on doing this crappy open map design and then also forced you to watch chopper cutscenes over and over, WTF Kojima ha. How that game escaped getting absolutely torched by reviews in terms of it's map and level design is proof of how passive game reviewers truly are.
I think it will definitely be one of the most divisive titles in the series for sure. Right now it's sitting at only 3 million copies in sales, but I'm curious how that number will jump (or not) when it comes out on pc.
I don't really care anymore. There are many great Indy studios creating amazing ACTUAL RPGs that are way better than any Final Fantasy has been for decades.
Story probably has always been top priority for RPGs but, obviously it's best if the two can work together as well as possible so they should be able to stand on their own
Its funny that you enjoyed it somewhat thanks to the combat, me I need my RPGs to be turn based. When I want action I play action games. I dont really enjoy the mix.
I am the salty JRPG fan here, you nailed this topic more than anyone I am quite literally seething about the dismantlement of my genre because of this, and you are just like "yeah I admit it" 😎.
3:00 Fax!!! I’m tired of every action game trying to be slow and methodical. The world doesn’t need anymore Souls clones. Nioh and SOP get a pass from me for being some of the few loot ARPGs that aren’t glorified clicker games.
@@TheCyclicGamer Games have been challenging long before Dark Souls ever existed. No not every game needs to be as unforgiving as dark souls and I wouldn't call that gameplay loop engaging personally but I know people like it
@@sadisticD I said challenging and engaging, not unforgiving. Besides, you think Dark Souls is unforgiving? Try the Gradius games, or Air Combat PS1 on hard mode.
@@TheCyclicGamer I would say Dark Souls and souls-likes in general are unforgiving and I wouldn't call them engaging personally. The challenge comes from their unforgiving nature more than anything else and yes I'm familiar with more challenging games. I came up in the 8 bit and 16 bit era so things like the original Castlevania trilogy, Double Dragon, and Ghosts and Goblins were the norm. Probably why I get irritated when people act like games weren't challenging before Dark Souls or something or like anything in a souls game is new or original. I'm also a Ninja Gaiden fan not that liking some challenging games means anything other than it's a preference. I also like my games to actually be fun and not a depressing slog.
I understand that I'm old. I'm 46 and I grew up with the original Final Fantasy. I also understand they aren't making Final Fantasy with my tastes in mind. I prefer turn based as it provides some strategy in fighting as in the older tabletop combat mechanics. As someone facetiously put it, "Young people today with their TikTok brains can't slow down so they prefer hit x repeatedly to beat something until it stops moving." That may be some of it but also many didn't grow up with RPGs either electronically or tabletop. Turn-based RPGs have always been more of a niche market and as costs for AAA games have skyrocketed, developers and publishers have looked around to try to grab the majority of the market and that majority is action oriented. The indie market is filling the void with cheaper and competent turn based RPGs. Ara Fell is a great turn based game and if you just hit A to fight a battle you will get your butt handed to you. The boss battles do require some strategy and tactics. Some major studios have also decided to make what I call B-tier games that cater to me as well; Squarenix themselves have made the Bravely Default series which feels like the original six Final Fantasy games and in my opinion is the current spiritual successor to the Final Fantasy name. They have also made Octopath Traveler, and don't forget the RPGs made by their subsidiary, Tokyo RPG Factory. So yes, Final Fantasy 16 is not for me and I'm ok with that.
As an RPG player, yes, it is both the story and gameplay that are the appeal. In the ideal case, anyway. I'd say that RPG fans have a higher tolerance for prolonged story elements so they can enjoy both the gameplay and the story. And yes, RPG fans actually do like turn based combat. It has it's own appeal separate to other styles of play. I enjoy character action games too but I think franchises should stay in their lane more often, y'know? Not everything should appeal to everyone. I think there are ways for both RPGs and Character Action franchises to improve what they're good at without genre jumping and losing half their existing audience.
I love how you mention that all the genres are merging. However, I'm not sure you see the full scope of what that means. You mention RPG fans have been getting a lot of Ws recently because of RPG mechanics in other genres? That's actually quite wrong as there are hardly any proper turn-based RPGs left! Nearly all of them have been turned into Action RPGs and it's driving us nuts! Yakuza 7 is the only real W we got and gosh darnit that's sweet revenge after what SEGA has done to all their other RPG series...ESPECIALLY poor Sakura Wars. Oof. The thing is, RPG mechanics in other genres doesn't make them more paletable to RPG fans because RPG fans are fans of RPGs and that game still isn't an RPG. Genre is very important and seeing them all merge like this is frustrating because really, no one wins. I'm reminded of what happened during the 7th generation when PC and Console games merged. PC Gamers complained because all their PC games were being "consolized", with less options, simplified gameplay, and controls designed for gamepads. However, console gamers weren't getting any proper console games, just consolized PC games. Everyone lost. As such, where is the line drawn for RPG fans when it comes to how actiony a game can be before it is no longer an RPG? Depends on the genre. Turn-based RPGs and Action RPGs are entirely different things. I love both and can be in a mood for either, but the sheer lack of proper budgeted turn-based RPGs sucks and too many people think they're a relic of the past and see action combat as an "evolution" rather than "a complete genre change". It's worth mentioning that SquareEnix have been insulting turn-based RPG fans for a while with their poor decisions. That crap "hold a button and win" combat of FF15? That was done because they literally didn't think RPG fans had the reaction times to play an action game. Then there's FF7 Remake which has a "classic" mode...except it doesn't make the game turn based, it makes the game play itself. Don't even get me started on convoluted disasters like Four Heroes of Light which is an insult to FF1 and inferior in every possible way. That said, the one complaint you missed is the lack of party dynamics. Parties are important to JRPGs. Frequently I don't want to play as the "main" character, I wanna play as a side character and the ability to control multiple characters or switch between them lets me focus on the characters I like. FF16 doesn't let me do that. It's Clive or nothing, while many other action RPGs do let me switch characters. That said I feel like we come from alternate dimensions. You mentioned liking the more mature presentation because you felt games were becoming more childish?! Cripes I wish. I'm sick of these sad dour games with brown and grey color pallets and a focus on "realism". I felt FF16's designs and world were painfully bland and too Western for my taste. Game looks like The Witcher but with pretty faces. But getting back to the genre singularity, the other problem there is that, as you can see, it's also watering down character action games to make them more accessible to a wider audience. I'm still distraught by how Oneechanbara: Origins threw out all of the depth and moves of the older games to just become a garbage parry fest. But at the same time I'm sadly seeing a lot of so-called "JRPG Fans" applauding the move to action combat...but at the same time detesting depth. Some of these people seriously seem like they just wanna walk down a straight line, mash the attack button, and watch cutscenes and it makes me sad. I did appreciate the commentary on DMC1 though because I had a kind of similar thought. I enjoyed the combat but the stage design was terrible. There was no platforming, no fighting enemies in the stage, just a maze full of puzzles with the combat sectioned off to their own rooms. I honestly thought "Wait a second, Devil May Cry is just a bad action RPG! I'm going through a dungeon solving puzzles and going to separate combat screens but there's only one dungeon, only one character, and it's only single player! Tales of Eternia is like the same game but better!" which I know is a very weird thought. And actually that's what has me really frustrated as I love the Tales games but not only did all the good 2D ones not get a US release, but the last two entries in the series abandoned their distinctive side scrolling combat system for a generic dumbed down system very similar to FF16...and Star Ocean: The Divine Force...and Ys 8 & 9...and everything else. That said, this video was interesting because I never knew that Character Action Game fans were suffering in a similar way JRPG fans are with their genre becoming increasingly niche and increasingly absorbed into the grey mush that is the genre singularity. Honestly? Outside of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and maybe 3, most JRPGs released these days fall so short of the ones from the PS2 era and earlier. The whole genre is a mess right now. I could go on for days but my thoughts are too jumbled. Good work but MAN is it clear you don't understand RPG fans! XD (Also, ATB is a terrible idea and a huge mistake)
I’m actually super interested to hear what you mean by 4WOL being a convoluted insult to FF1. I am not particularly attached to either game, you just have a stance I have not seen before.
Yes jrpgs fans became what they hated its ironic at this point The action rpg combat that these jrpg use now is just bad without depth or anything special thats why its an issue
Id say there are a select few JRPGS that are still good. Not ps2 level but good nonetheless. Being a fan of Jrpgs and character action these days is tough.
A good RPG is a slot machine that you can change the odds of. You leverage stats, synergize abilities,and optimize actions all to stack that slot machine so far in your favor. In the same way you would study a superplay or use savestates to increase the chances that your muscle memory will execute a good run, an RPG player gathers info from towns and executes actions in battle optimally to slow the use of resources over time in order to clear a level. The payout of the slot machine varies from game to game; some give out chunks of story while others give you more gameplay complexity and more types of slot machines. At it's worst it's just "number go big" which is what gets tacked on to most non-RPG and unfortunately to FF16. Numbers going up in a linear path is not gameplay. Manipulating and exploiting variables is. The most "pure" gameplay for an RPG would be dungeon crawlers/blobbers like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Etrian Odyssey etc where the story is in the manual and the game is constant combat and dungeon exploration. Classic JRPGs like early Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Shin Megami Tensei have the best balance of light story/strong theming with large variations in party building.
Yes I get the feeling what you describe is what might be considered core rpg gameplay. Because I have a friend whose really into rpg and he ll destroy them all at high difficulty and will then tell me how he did it and recite massive stat trees and stuff ha. Basically the gameplay is about manipulation of stat variables and how they interact with each other, is what it sounds like
@@TheElectricUnderground Basically that. Final Fantasy is sort of the Ikaruga of RPGs in that it's became the face of the genre despite not 100% following the essence of it. It's a very competent series (or was) but in the PS1 era started leading more towards story game due to being at the forefront of CGI across any medium, not just video games. 16 was created by MMO developers, but the combat was by the DMC designer hot off of DMC5. They don't mesh perfectly and the RPG mechanics (which are thin and very MMOish) shackle the combat to cooldowns and not being able to juggle 75% of the enemies in the game.
broken gameplay if you learn the mechanics? like how insane ff8 can get once you really learn it. linear progression drives me insane. the enemies scaling with me no matter what I do is an instant no.
@asmith1854 Final Fantasy also convinced most western gamers that buffs, debuffs and status effects don't matter, something Dragon Quest had figured out was wrong since III.
There have been so many RPGs that have interesting combat and bosses that sometimes gets lost on people from the perception that you play these games by grinding until your numbers are so high you can ignore all the mechanics. You'll even see it in old FAQs saying something along the lines of "be level 40 for this boss and you'll easily defeat it" when the battle was designed to be done at 20, utilizing interesting combinations of mechanics. Sure, sometimes I wanna relax by grinding in a game because I've already burnt my brain out trying to do something difficult in a game like beatmania, but there's a lot more interesting things going on in RPGs than some who've avoided the genre might realize.
@@voideyezz3234 same,smt is all about tatical decisions and not grinding crap,i´m glad something like low level runs are very popular in the comunity,really highlights the versatility of such a deep combat system noctune and onwards have
@@Voxandra Not gonna lie. I honestly think the way Romancing SaGa handled non-linear exploration all the way back on the Super Famicom was far more interesting than most modern open-world games.
I found Stranger of Paradise to be a much better action RPG than XVI, especially since SoP doesn't waste your time with trivial stuff and isn't too cutscene heavy like XVI.
Bog says the same thing! He s convinced me to buy it so I ll give it a try soon :-) it s team ninja which are my fav devs ha so yeah they know how to make combat for sure. The key difference though, just for observation, is that stranger is a spin off game, and 16 is a mainline entry, so 16 is going to be a more widely played game I imagine
@@TheElectricUnderground If you're familiar with Nioh, SoP plays a lot like it but with FF elements. Maybe XVI will be widely played, but I feel as though SoP is the one people are going to remember more, like it's gonna be a cult classic as some point in the future. XVI is more forgettable than XV to me, and that's saying something considering how that game was released. SoP to me is the only good action-based FF game, at least the only one with actual good game design, none of the others did it for me.
To me SoP was sleeper game of the year. The first playthrough is kind of average, but once you progress to the second DLC it becomes one of the most fun action RPG games I have ever played.
@@TheElectricUnderground SoP is prequel to mainline FF 1, people keep calling it spin off but the existence of SoP is very importance to explain the mainline FF 1 universe
@@tonberrymasta people with no hands and creativity be like. I played Elden Cringe and didn't find half the fun I had with SoP, I would have given the Goty to SoP before ER or GoWR is superior in enemy design, enemy performance, weapons, controls, characters, plot, story, mechanics, bosses, combat mechanics, music etc.
The story is great. I hate action games but i love final fantasy so I watched someone play it from start to finish. Isn't it amazing how you can just watch a game for free now? If this came out in early 2000's i would have wasted money
Ha that is really funny because that s my relationship with all the other final fantasy games. Like with 7 remake, I just watched cutscenes compilations :-D
Great video, I watched during the premiere so I didn't watch the beginning parts (going through it now) One thing that I think is worth noting just in case you didn't is that Yoshi P (the game's director) has been known to be an arcade fiend. He literally got Zangief nerfed in Street Fighter EX2 way back in the day by attending a loctest and crushing everyone. On top of that, he's the director of FFXIV MMO which has beat-em-up/shmup style linear dungeon design where you go trash mobs -> midboss -> trash mobs -> stage boss, and the Limit Break in XIV is functionally the same thing as the Dodonpachi hyper meter
no..he bodied everyone in sfex1...around the time of sfex2 he got to meet with arika and got a confirmation that he was the reason behind the huge zangief nerf in that series eheh
That is really awesome ha. Yeah as weird as it is I have a bit of a soft spot for the FF series just because you can tell it still retains a lot of Japanese style game design, which overlaps with arcade game design. Most rpg series I have absolutely no interest in playing or trying out in the slightest, except for FF (maybe because of it's awesome graphics and character designs?). So I'd love to play the series more and explore it more, but man battling my way through rpg game design is so hard due to my general impatience when it comes to wanting gameplay right away and general disinterest in video game stories.
very interesting to see the perspective of someone knee-deep into a genre and compare it to the design philosophy of "mainstream Western designers". From all the game design videos/forums/discussions I have seen, a mechanic not directly being engaged with by a significant amount of players is automatically perceived as bad. And as you said, the solution proposed frequently involves making the design more restrictive and forcing the players to use said mechanic (this mass appeal progress at all cost mentality). I personally don't mind some games having restrictive designs but that philosophy can very often devolve gameplay into a glorified game of Simon Says and make mechanic utilization/progress much more inorganic when overused. Again another awesome video and I look forward to the next one.
What a great comment duel! Yes I think there can be some smart uses of prescribed design, especially if you are trying to teach a player about how a mechanic should be used and in what context, but when you make it a permanent part of the design it gets extremely simplistic and uniform.
Spot on. I'm one of those salty RPG fans. 🤝 Edit: I dont know how to answer your story vs gameplay question, but I will put forth Final Fantasy X and Dragon Quest XI(s) as the gold standard tier of turn-based RPGs. They have deep stories but also have compelling strategic battles, particularly in their optional content. This content brings an additional challenge for the combat-leaning fans, but leaves a mainline story completion within reach for more casual players. Not sure if this answers the question but it's all i can say!
no irony, salty rpg fans might be my fav type of fans of all time. Because you guys are suffering, but from your suffering you have gained rationality. Vs Nintendo or Bayo fans where they are just conditioned for unconditional praise of their games at all times.
I'm not primarily an RPG-player either, but I play some from time to time and I think dismissing non-action RPGs as relaxing entertainment with low gameplay density in general is just wrong. You should try Shin Megami Tensei IV or V. Those games will show you how turn based J-RPGs can prioritize gameplay mechanics over story and have a very tight gameplay-density. There are also a lot of western cRPGs like for example the Wizadry series or Darkest Dungeon with very dense and challenging gameplay.
I’m a Final Fantasy fan since VII and went back and played them all, minus Lightning Returns. This game feels so far away from FF that I’m quite torn on how I feel about it. I love my RPGs, especially turn-based. Persona and Dragon Quest are some of my faves. I actually am wondering, what are your fave action games? Heard you say Nioh and Ninja Gaiden, but what is your take on Astral Chain? One of my all time faves, God Hand.
Oh easily my favorite action game is Ninja Gaiden 2, I think it is ahead of the genre still in a lot of ways, despite some issues like not locking areas to force combat and the damn UT spamming (which I just pretend doesn't exist ha). Following up NG2 though, I do think God Hand is fantastic (though I still need to get better at it) and specifically DMC3. I've been working on a big DMC3 video for the past year, but I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5 and I'm gonna have a whole vid on that ha. As an FF fan, I can only imagine how far away 16 is from the rest of the series ... I mean the game is showing up on my channel, and I don't play rpgs normally ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground oh my god. Love your channel and I’m so there with you. I still have yet to beat DMCV because it just didn’t click for me. DMC3 is one of my faves and Ninja Gaiden Black and 2 are high up there. Awesome. Can’t wait to see your vid on DMC3!
@@TheElectricUnderground "I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5." Finally, a fellow style switch hater. Ironically style switching actually limits the game design.
As an RPG player i really didnt like it. Its way to compromised and doesnt serve neither side well. I really wonder if you would have been this positive if you didnt have Bayo3 and Re4 to compare it to.
Hmmm I wouldn't call my review positive necessarily ha. It's actually a lot more neutral and that's really my final feelings on the game. I think the idea in itself it a lot more appealing than either bayo 3 or remake4 (moving away from rpg design, whereas those two are moving towards RPG design), but the question is if FF16 is successful in doing that, which I think i critique fairly. I am more open to the idea of FF16 though, a real time combat FF games, so that's probably why my tone is more playful than the other reviews.
Is an RPG becoming much more like a Character Action game a good thing if it results in a game that doesn't do either genre that great? (Or in this case, a game that is barely an RPG, yet still want to be one so badly that it holds back the "action")
That is truly the question david. Just like the reverse of Bayo 3, where a character action is becoming more like an RPG. It's a double edged sword and I don't think it can actually be easily answered, like in a game design sort of way. As a critic though, I am geared towards favoring character action style design over RPG design, especially since RPG design is much more prevalent and popular. So in my book yes I would like to see more RPG series shift towards character action and I absolutely would love to see FF go all the way with the idea, rather than have this sort of awkward middle area ha. Intellectually, it sounds nice for me to say that FF should stay pure to rpg because that's its legacy, but as a player I cannot deny that I am enjoying FF16 more than I did FF15 (the little I played of it) because of it's real time combat elements ha. So really it kind of comes down to a battle of design elements and which side you'd personally like to see prevail. There is no easy right or wrong I don't think. That being said FF16 could certainly just improve it's combat system by making it more balanced in terms of special attacks, I think that's a glaring issue.
@@TheElectricUnderground Although... id say Bayo 3 made an inch towards RPG while FF took miles towards a character action game 😂 I'd like the Final Fantasy identity crisis to be over with though, so if they want to be more like an action game, id perfer if they commit to it rather than completely change the game again and probably put out another sucky one. They need to start iterating on a certain style if they want to make a game as good as FF6 or 7. Plus like you said, theres not enough action games out there lol As for RPGs becoming more like character action. I think there is alot RPGs (and modern games in general) can learn from Character action, and arcade game design. But i would only like to see them make larger jumps in ways that make sense. Ys and Kingdom Hearts are two IPs that I wouldn't be opposed to being more like (or outright) a character action game. I know Ys in particular is one where some people would like them get rid of party members and return to solely controlling Adol.
I'm a fan of both character action(spectacle fighters) & Final Fantasy, but Chocobo May Kweh(Final Fantasy XVI) while being a great game... the combat is just wrong for Final Fantasy in the form they chose. I was up for the DMC combat, but was hoping for more strategy than just waiting on cooldowns. I was on autopilot playing the game due to 20 years of DMC & wasn't challenged & barely was touched. The combat needed more Final Fantasy elements in elemental weaknesses, buffs & debuffs along with a proper magic system. Having the DMC 5 combat director, while a good idea, they ignored stuff that could have made the game more challenging. As a JRPG fan, we come into the genre for the story & world. Combat is there as a mental challenge in turn based & in action RPGs it's survival as an adventurer & both are there for a sense of growth in the characters, like going to the gym to get stronger. With western RPGs (which I am not that big a fan of) people go to them for the sense of freedom & inserting themselves into the world... & these ones are where character action combat would fit perfectly since WRPGs are about personalisation. The biggest issue with modern games is that they aren't making games for older fans of franchises in their late 30's & older, but younger audiences who want time burners content over smaller & tighter experiences.
Oh yeah the difficulty is really an issue for this game, even on default. Because difficulty creates strategy in action combat by forcing players to respect frame data. But if you don't have enemies challenging you and making you consider each strike, it does end up feeling mindless. I wonder how likely it might be that square put in a mode with much more aggressive ai (way more than Ng+)
Honestly FF was a series hard carried by its presentation with very little to offer in terms of gameplay, FF became much less impressive and relevant during the 360/PS3 era as other console devs started catching up and budgets shot through the roof in general. I could never sit through more than a few hours of the mainline games but really enjoyed spinoffs like Tactics and Stranger of Paradise because the devs actually focused on making the basic gameplay loop engaging. So the somewhat poor reception of XVI among the hardcore fans only makes it look better to me.
lol classic RPG fans have been complaining about the actionization of the genre for over a decade, and I’d argue RPG fans have lost much much more than action fans. Every game is now a real time slashy slaughterfest. On the issue of RPG mechanics, one of the core fundamentals IMO is a narrativized party system, where the story unfolds through the episodic assemblage of playable characters who are tactically distinct, and who have distinct development arcs. The “role play” has to be plural, and there have to be meaningful choices in terms of which characters you develop and invest in. Having a decent level of discrete combat control over all characters in your battle party is also important. Stats plus progression is not a sufficient genre formula, and interactive cinematic cut scenes aren’t really part of the classic RPG storytelling formula.
I'm just gauging a sentiment based on several passing comments I've seen on this channel. But I'm glad I'm far from the only one these days that really really was not a fan of modern Zelda. I'm sure most people here probably aren't a fan of the series in general. But I grew up on them and love the bulk of the series to the point where I auto pilot most of them. These last two games though? I'm good, Nintendo. You can miss me with the padded, empty, "Make Your Own Fun (but actually don't because we have shitfuck loads of aggravatingly conflicting systems)" faux Ubisoft horseshit. And that game was an infection too. The fact that Sonic the goddamn Hedgehog is now Breath of the Wild is unreal to me and it really highlights your opening statements. Can't just be a damn platformer. Has to be FarCry now. Has to be Elder Scrolls now. We're solvin' block puzzles as the fastest thing alive and, for some goddamn reason, *BADLY* feigning Phantasy Star Online combat inbetween the RPG chores. All in a big boring world with no style or cohesion.
I hate stat leveling and unlocking moves in action games. Honestly drags the game down and honestly comes off a lazy way to balance the game so you’re not overpowered at the start.
damn right magic, agreed 100% dmc and bayo are hella guilty of this. NG2 is somewhat guilty of this as well, but less so as you do have access to your core moveset via the sword. Still, all character action games should begin with a NG+ file hot and ready by default. Then unlocking moves mode should be optional.
NG2 does the upgrade part the best. You upgrade your weapon one level and you get a crap ton of moves. Can you believe Gamingbrit wanted you to only unlock single moves? 😂😂😂😂
Based video as always I wish FF16 was a full blow character action game but it's really not the case unfortunately, the depth really isn't there, no JRPG depth and no action game depth either. But I like the idea.
Yes that's a great analysis. Except I don't think the issue with the combat system isn't necessarily depth, as it does have plenty you can do fundamentally (not as much as DMC or Bayo, but I think there's still room for a more limited moveset action game). But the massive issue comes with balance where the special attacks or summons, completely overtake and wipe out the fundimental gameplay leaving only a really shallow game of special move spamming. However, if the special moves were nerfed and rebalanced, then it think the game could start to have a much stronger feel in terms of combat. This is just a tricky conversation, especially for RPG players, because the issue isn't, oh there are not enough moves, the issue is, hey the moves are useless in the face of such OP summons. I guess it's a bit like the psychic pokemon of pokemon red, where they just were way too OP and could blast through all the other pokemon types without much issue.
As someone who has leaned towards RPGs and a lifelong player of Final Fantasy games, Stranger of Paradise and FF16 are easily now top in the series for me. I love the stories they presented but they really expanded my view on these character action style games and made me play more in the genre. I want to combo and cancel and stomp more!
Ah yes, one of the side-effects of the cancer known as AAA gaming. When you put everything in a game, you end up with nothing. Role playing games should be about role playing and choices that matter, being immersed in the world, and good storylines especially if it's a turn based JRPG, not being a generic action game with level ups and skill systems. A lot of RPG fans barely understand RPGs these days, which is annoying especially when you see some people act like Skyrim is a masterpiece when it's a generic open world action game with RPG systems attached. This is getting almost as bad as the music industry where so many bands/artists started chasing the crossover hit and watered down their music so much that genres disappear for all the wrong reasons. I still don't understand why Square Enix doesn't want to do a turn based Final Fantasy game again. That's what a lot of the FF fans really want, but SE does not want to do that. I'm not really interested in FF being an action game either TBH.
I don't agree with your take at all and find it wildly misguided. For comparison, it annoys me that I don't get tightly designed action-platformers much anymore because 90% of games in the platforming genre are metroidvanias. But I don't wish that metroidvania fans share my misery by not getting their games either. That is essentially your attitude here, but it misinterprets the situation as if fans of in-depth turn based RPGs are actually getting what they want, which is incredibly far from the case. Nearly every "RPG" has just been a shallow action game with RPG elements for a decade and a half now.
I hope you can detect I am being tongue and cheek with my presentation of my vid ha. I don't actually want rpg players to be frustrated, but it is funny to see the shoe on the other foot for once. Also someone should make a video about the over swarm of metroidvania in platformers these days, because it is getting out of hand. I dislike that trend perhaps more than the rpg trend, it's a close toss up. But in terms of RPG fans being hurt for games, I think that's swimming in the ocean and complaining about not having enough water. The gaming sphere is dominated by RPGs, and not just in terms of releases, but most game discussion revolves around RPGs and their style of design. I hear over and over that the art of games is that they are an "interactive" story telling medium ... which is an RPG concept. I don't view games or design from this angle at all. Is Tetris any less of a game, artistically, than FF6, because it doesn't tell a story? RPGs are so baked into gaming culture that I think fans forget just how common and prevalent they are.
@@TheElectricUnderground That is fair, and I overreacted. I just don't think it is the fault of the core RPG genre; I think it would have happened anyway if RPGs hadn't been the catalyst. Think back to FMV games and further back even. In which game is the story presented in a more cinematic and important manner, Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy (1)? Arguably the former. Not that this is a knock against it, Ninja Gaiden is a better game AND has a better story. I may have a niche view of things, but the core of the RPG genre is a resource management/puzzle game, not an interactive movie. And the niche appeal of that is extremely limited, hence why RPGs adopted the interactive movie angle before other genres. That is where I agree with you, the appeal to the mass market means a dilution of the genre. I just disagree that the RPG is inherently at fault here, it is just as much the victim. Anyway, love your videos even if I disagree some times.
I know this is a bit of a necro, given that the video is so old, but I personally think that the term "RPG" is very unproductive. And I say this as someone who is a massive fan of JRPGs and Dungeon Crawlerd RPGs, and has played hundreds of them. In the past, you might have said that RPG was roughly analogous as a genre to the "genre" of Arcade games in that the descriptor is more of a statement on a game's format than its actual primary gameplay loop. After all, despite being both Arcade games, Streets of Rage and Radiant Silvergun share very little of a core gameplay loop. What they share is instead an attitude towards difficulty, and play-experience format, an overall length, the mechanic of score, etc. RPGs before the turn of the millennium and for a small bit afterwards in that all RPGs shared a longer length, a focus on numerical and strategic development over input skill, and an emphasis on immersion and/or storytelling. But ever since RPG mechanics were exported to game design across genres, the term RPG has become too broad to be descriptive. You could say that RPGs are the genre of "number-go-up". But the amount skill matters in comparison to those numbers going up is incredibly variable. A game like Ys 1 only has 10 levels and you get to max halfway through the game. Something like SaGa actually *punishes* you for grinding by actively scaling up enemies as you fight battles, causing the entire game to become a race to out-scale the world's native difficulty. Then you have something like Disco Elysium, which has no levels, no combat, and just dialogue choices that modify but never truly improve your stats. If I had to chose between story and gameplay as an RPG fan, I don't think I'd be able to chose one. Both? Frankly speaking, it is very difficult for a game to manage a 40+ hour runtime with actually 0 story, at very least as a pace-breaker. And the same can be said of gameplay. If a game is going to need an element, shouldn't that element be good? There are some gameplay-first RPG series I love, like Etrian Odyssey, but even then my favorite entries have been the ones that maintain their high gameplay quality while incorporating a well-written narrative. If I had to answer whether gameplay or story is driving the bus, I think that heavily depends on the goals of the individual game. In Dungeon Crawlers, mechanics are driving, and I do think the tactics of turn-based combat and the strategy of long-term party development are enough to justify this being the case. But even gameplay-first RPGs tend to be slow-burn experiences, and they don't jive with everyone.
RPGs are dungeon crawlers centered around resource management, stat development and tactical gameplay. The resource management is an underrated aspect of old-school RPGs, and it's the reason why the genre has been losing its touch ever since moving away from random battles. Random battles were an important test of your preparation and resource usage. If you didn't adequately prepare and utilize your resources effectively, you would exhaust your supply of magic and items and would get wiped out before reaching the end of the dungeon. The narrative aspect of RPGs is tied to their roots in tabletop games, where dungeon masters would set the tone of the adventure and role-players would act out their characters. The story elements were meant to enhance the games by fleshing out the world you were immersing yourself in and creating a sense of progress across multiple play sessions. Some RPGs even have a "meta" that shifts over the course of the game. A good example of this is Phantasy Star II. During the first half of the game, stat-based weapons are crucial to inflicting adequate damage on enemy mobs. Once you get to the second half of the game, however, weapons and attacks that ignore defense become critical since late game mobs have high defense and all weapons save for the main character's swords simply can't keep up.
If you are mashing buttons in a Musou you are also doing it wrong. I mean you can probably win. But it will be very slow and very boring. Musou are not about life or death, you will live, you will kill. They are about completing objectives and controlling the tide of battle as the most badass stylish chad in the battlefield. Saying musou games are about mashing is like saying the goal of shmups is survival. Please dude, don't bash musou. Leave that to the normies who love the new god of bore. I mean you, can obviously dislike them but musou are one of the last genres that still focuses on gameplay first. It might be gameplay you don't like but it is gameplay first. And as i said before. They are about being the most efficient killing machine. There's never any doubt you are one. You just have to be the most efficient. High level musou plays like speedrunning mostly.
I really want to like musou games believe me ha, I think the concept is cool. But I really wish there was a lot more to the enemy design and moveset, I don't think the games are bad or anything, but they don't really give you much options other than repeating the same attacks. I think they do their own thing but shouldn't be put in the same genre as character action, which they often are
@@TheElectricUnderground You don't have to like musou and most of them ARE pretty trash. As all genre of games... Only some games in each genre are "brilliant". And off course they aren't in the same genre as character action AT ALL. I think they are more like a single player moba mixed with something like powerwash simulator. Whenever i play one (a good one) i'm constantly balancing completing objectives and "cleaning" the battlefield of officers to take their bases. Also any musou without bases, objectives and the tide of the batle is not a musou. Probably the most representative of that concept is Fate Extella Link. Which isn't even a Koei Tecmo game. Enemies can take back bases and they can defeat you by obtaining those bases themselves. And there are random events that demand your attetion so you have to decide between defending a zone or saving an ally or even deactivating some elemental effect that's causing trouble for you and your troops.
I am a big fan of JRPGs, and also Ninja Gaiden and other games covered in this channel, so I would like to share my view as an RPG fan. The biggest reason I play RPGs is the gameplay, without a doubt. If the game is not fun to play I won't grind throught hours of gameplay just to see some pieces of plot as a reward. On the other hand the primary reason why I'm interested in JRPGs is also the more compeling story that these games tend to offer, and to be honest I would prefer a less RPGish game if the plot is weak. If the plot is weak I won't care about the world and characters, and because of that, cutscenes, exploration, and leveling progression will be a waste of my time, it will be in general a worse experience than alternatives without RPG elements. But if I play RPGs for gameplay what do I want from them as a game? Well, I like the strategy side of gameplay in RPGs, I like to make smart decisions that gives me advantage in the limited control that the game systems offer, and being able of blast throught everything with sheer mechanical skills in combat is actually a bad thing for these games because on the tactical side it gets boring. A great example of good design in my opinion is the SMT series. It is a series that consistently gives really good strategic combat, and has good enough writing to keep me invested. In SMT games you need to create a good party, and also you need to make smart decisions every turn in battle to mantain advantage and avoid death. That is when most RPGs shine in my opinion, the non actiony ones. Now, about action RPGs, I think they shine when they are good action games, and nothing more. Yes, I think that they should be more compared to Ninja Gaiden and the like, even if they have RPGs elements. The simple reason is that action RPGs give you direct control of your character, and now your mechanical skill as a player WILL impact the gameplay and is important for progression. I do know that RPG mechanics can break action games, but this is the fight that action RPGs are buying so.... good luck I guess, or maybe try to make a pure action game. The biggest example for action RPGs is Dark Souls, but I prefer Nioh so I will use that instead. Nioh is basically an action game with a lot of RPG elements, and even if you have level and equipments, with crafting and upgrades for good measure, you can still treat it as an action game. The reason is that, because you will usually play missions of about your level, most of your leveling in stats will be cancelled by your enemies levels. In such way, you can treat leveling systems as just an difficulty scaler, where the lower your level the harder the difficulty, but with good skills you can cut away grinding levels from the game. That is my reason to give action RPGs an action game treatment, if the leveling can act as just an difficulty slider, the quality of the gameplay will mostly be decided by how fun is the action. Yes, in RPGs it is expected to have more customization, maybe party management and so on, but at the end of the day it still needs to be a good as an action game in my opinion, after all, you won't be able to cram into the high speed gameplay all of that strategic complexity of a turn/strategy RPG, so all you can lean on in this case is good action.
What am awesome and well written comment! By the sound of it, and based on other comments I read too, it seems like rpg players tend to view turn based combat, at least in some form, more natural because it makes it easier to blend together story elements and strategy elements, whereas with real time story doesn't matter since you still will need to swing your sword within the combat system, that makes sense. It would be super interesting if an rpg used something like fighting styles (like VF) as part of the strategy but that would be so complex to do on a fundamental level (so you d have to learn massive amounts of frame data), that no way could most players figure it out or be motivated to do so. Stats are easier to scale and program
I played FF7 through twice 25 years ago.. this new one looks pretty good, but unskippable cut scenes is such a pompous move by the developers. I'd rather play something else
I've heard a lot of really cool stuff about the series, but have never played it personally. I do remember it having some kind of Fire Emblem crossover though, which sounds like perhaps it skews towards a tactical rpg audience?
@@TheElectricUnderground Majin Tensei and Devil Survivor are the only tactical RPG games in the franchise, but yeah they did cross over with Fire Emblem for some strange reason. The main games are all JRPGs that prioritise combat and customisation (you fuse demons to inherit skills and stay on the level curve) I still need to play the two Raidou Kuzunoha games on the PS2 because they are Action RPGs.
@@TheElectricUnderground Even though Shin Megami Tensei is more of a typical turn based style game, you actually feel the tactical decisions during battle like you would during a tactics RPG. It's very good on the gameplay front. I'd recommend Shin Megami Tensei V, the newest one. It's very light on the story and the story is ASS anyway so it's okay to skip it. It can feel like a purely gameplay focused RPG which might be what you're looking for
Tales of Series, especially the most recent Tales of Game probably has some of the best action combat. Ignoring the older games of course, combat is fluid and allows for long and complex combinations.
I am a fan of action games and JRPGs with fighters and JRPGs being my 2 favourite genres but I look for different things in each. If I play an action game gameplay is king, if you can also make a great story thats fantastic but I do not expect it and would rather they not waste time on making crap like awful story content we seem to get in games like SF, Tekken, DOA, MK etc these days just bring back the short character endings. With JRPGs its the opposite for me where the story is by far the most important thing and gameplay is not the focus. My fears with FF16 were that it would fall somewhere in the middle and not be a great RPG or a great action game and playing the demo I was convinced not to buy it until it gets a deep sale. I also got heavy Bayonetta 3 vibes from it which was by far my least favourite Bayonetta game only FF16 looked way better but felt like it had even more lackluster mechanics and level design. It just was not a combat system that incentivised or demanded a level of mastery and I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden, Nioh, Devil May Cry 1 and 3, Sekkiro, Bayonetta 1 and 2, Vanquish or numerous other action games. I will get the game eventually but I wish they had found a way to make a more unique combat system that blended the genres sort of like a more involved form of FFVII remakes instead of just making a fundamentally sound but unimaginative action system. I do wish they had allowed Nier Automata the same level of polish this game received as I feel that game does a much better job of creating its own system even if it is rough around the edges and like 16 feels like the outside help they got to make the battle system while very talented just phoned it in rather than bringing their A game. Story wise it is to early to tell for me with the demo but I am very sceptical in that regards with FF nowadays as I have not been satisfied with a FF story since X back in 2000 and that includes the story of FFXIV but from the demo it felt very FFXIV like in its structure which raised a lot of red flags for me on that front. If it was £40 I likely would have tried it due to how much I loved FFIV-X but at £65 its going to have to be something that really impresses me and the demo did not do that except with the visual presentation which is the one area Square show they are among the best.
By the sound of your comment you made a super accurate read on ff16 ha. Yes around the middle it starts to struggle with balancing it s mechanics and gets in this nasty middle zone between op rpg summon combat but still trying to be real time as well. I think waiting for the game to go on sale is a wise move, especially since I think the combat needs some rebalancing, by that time hopefully the game will play better and be cheaper ha. Also $70 for a game is insane
This is actually something that has been on my mind for a few years now: rpg elements are poison to a game's combat system. I'd advocate for the removal of most rpg mechanics in general because they are almost never integrated in meaningful ways and usually serve as bloat, but most discussions I've had with hardcore Final Fantasy fans regarding this game usually devolve into them shrieking that there's not enough customization, spells, equipment, crafting options, and so on. Balance is a delicate thing. When you provide the player with too many variables to consider, it becomes impossible to maintain a genuine challenge that keeps a player engaged with thoughtful combat. Instead, by grinding or procuring the best gear through sidequests and whatnot, you destroy any semblance of challenge the game offers. Even the beloved Dark Souls games suffer in terms of balancing because the rpg elements make the games as easy or hard as *you* (the player) wants, rather than how the developer wants. Sekiro was FromSoft's best attempt at creating a balanced game because it ditched the rpg clutter, and countless Dark Souls fans bemoaned that it was too hard. Doesn't take a genius to see why. If a developer attempts to gate character growth or progression through completing particular parts of the game, as is the case with FF13's crystarium, then these rpg elements become so shallow and that they ought not exist at all. If there's no choice, why even have these mechanics in the first place? Chrono Cross is another example, where you cannot level up your stats unless you defeat a boss. Well why not run from every non-boss encounter if the only thing I'll get is money and materials that I don't care about? Unfortunately, FF16 follows in 13's footsteps and provides the player with all these superfluous rpg mechanics that function more as window-dressing than customization. Here's the issue with the crafting system: it's pointless. When you have only one weapon type in the game, and there are no elemental affinities or attack properties attached to these swords, why even have a crafting system? A player is *always* going to buy a new sword when it becomes available, upgrade it twice (because that's the cap), and then repeat over and over throughout the game. What's the point? Why not just dispense with this mechanic entirely since there really isn't any customization when it comes to equipment; you're just going to equip whatever has the highest numbers. Vertical progression systems are the ultimate illusion of choice. Money and resources could serve as a hinderance towards upgrading your gear, but both flow like water in this game and are never an issue. You will always have more money and materials than you will ever need to keep yourself outfitted with the best gear at all times. The skill tree, likewise, does not provide the player with any choices. You can reset upgrades at any time, for free, as often as you like. No decision you make bears any consequence. There's no build to work towards since you can always reset skills you don't like and allocate those points towards another skill. Why even provide the player with skill points at all? Why even upgrade skills? Just let me equip whichever eikon skills I want and call it a day. The accessories don't add meaningful customization options either. Most are potion duration/potency buffs or damage/defense modifiers. More number bloat. I couldn't make out much difference between wicked wheel +10% damage and a flat +12 attack across the board as far as accessories go. The berserker ring is one of the worst accessories in the game. Not only does it force a repetitive dodge animation when you perform a precision dodge, it actually lowers your damage output. People tested the numbers and the follow-up combo from a berserker-boosted precision dodge results in 8 hits instead of 10, resulting in less damage. And this ring explicitly states in its description: "Temporarily increases attack proficiency with each precision dodge." Nice accessory; make your combat experience worse. Elemental affinities don't exist in this game, and for good reason: you only have access to 3 eikons at any given time. Well, suppose you don't have Ramuh equipped, and you run across a boss weak to electricity. Are you supposed to pause the game, equip Ramuh, reset your skill points and reallocate, unpause and then fight the boss? Repeat for every boss? Or worse, provide a garbage radial menu in a real-time action game like Forspoken, Witcher 3, and Stranger of Paradise did? I've seen people clamor for status moves like poison and sleep. These sorts of options are viable in menu-driven combat like turn-based games, where you can take your time working out tactical decisions, but not for action games. Why do you want to turn a reflex-driven combat system into a rock-paper-scissors match where, if you don't bring the right spell or weapon type, you deal less damage and prolong the fight? The only thing that will happen if these features were implemented is a player will find himself pausing the action constantly to mess around in menus. It does not offer any of the purported depth these advocates claim it would offer. Torgal feels tacked-on. He has two flavors of attack and a heal, and none of his abilities have a cooldown. What's to stop a player from spamming sic nonstop during every fight? Sure, you can get a precision sic that deals extra damage, but is it a meaningful amount of extra damage compared to hammering his sic attack without thought? No. He also has a launcher/downthrust that doesn't work against bosses/minibosses, so he's essentially just like the robot from Nier Automata in that you want to thoughtlessly spam his attacks throughout the entire game for free damage. He's next-to-pointless. Another aspect of the game that has little impact is the leveling system, or lack thereof. When you level up you get a minor boost to every stat and that's it. No stat allocation, no learning new abilities, nothing. Equipment is not gated behind levels. Dungeons are not level-locked. Is there even a discernible difference in damage when you level up? As far as I could tell, the amount of damage I laid upon a boss while he was staggered remained consistent throughout the entire game. You can hit 50k damage two hours into the game, and hit for 50k against endgame bosses. By the end I was hitting for 120k during stagger, and then in NG+ - 20 levels later - I was still hitting for 120k damage. Here's a design oversight: there are no eikon loadouts. Why can't I save a set of three eikons as one loadout, equipped with all these skills and whatnot to fight normal enemy mobs, and then save a second loadout that's tailored for bosses? Let me switch between the two in real time whenever I'm not in combat with a button press. You give me access to all these eikons and skills, yet I stick with a boss loadout at all times because pausing the action hurts the pacing of an action game. I'd go into detail on how the pacing of the game is already abhorrent, with forced fetch quests as part of the main scenario between almost every major dungeon, but I wanted to stick to gameplay mechanics. This game would be much better off casting aside its rpg vestiges. Focus on providing the player with meaningful choices in combat instead of offering this veneer of customization that amounts to nothing. It seems like the team was afraid to omit leveling and equipment for fear of alienating fans, but they realized that offering the same degree of freedom you'd find in something like FF7 would be a disaster in terms of balancing, so they instead compromised and wound up with shallow systems that cater to nobody. That's unfortunately what this game feels like: a compromised action game made for rpg fans, rather than for action-game fans. Except the rpg fans are upset that there's not enough rpg, and I'm disappointed that the rpg stuff feels like clutter. But hey, still better than Final Fantasy XV.
What an awesome comment my dude! So on the topic of RPG elements in action games, yes absolutely they cause a ton of issues with game balance. In fact I think games that we consider hallmark character action, like DMC3, still lean too heavily on rpg elements. The reason why they are such an issue is that they screw up the balance of replay ability because they create a catch 22. You can either 1: gain moves as you go through the levels, or 2: allow players to replay early levels with unlocked abilities. And if you allow them to replay levels with unlocked abilities, then those early levels need to be re-balanced with the abilities in mind. This does happen with NG+ modes, but then the question because, ok but why did you force the player to play through this whole massive campaign without the proper move set, only to unlock the true version of the game much later on? The real solution to this problem would be to have NG+ available from the start as an option, but that cuts across the whole progression design of RPG, so it's an ugly catch 22 where neither the rpg or the character action can fully work together.
great comment. it is actually impressive how this compromised nature carries on in the story as well. they want you to care about some family plot, betrayal and revenge in one breath but then you also get to kill gods in the other. eikons are nukes that nations deploy but also 1 guy can hold 6 of them at a time. like wtf !? if there was a guy that could even hold 2! of them it would cause all nations to go to war with each other for a chance of capturing him. so much of this game lacks self awareness on so many levels but it is a good time for its release. the average consumer is getting sick of Ubislop and is very mad about unfinished games. as you say, it is still better than FF 15, thats undeniable.
I agree with you on Nier but not the tales series or the Mana series. You can feel the difference very heavily going from Bayonetta to the new tales of games and especially the old ones. Your attacks are very repetitive and very delayed at first and you have encounters instead of free form combat. Action RPG =\= Action game
Yes but this game is moving even further way from the "action rpg" style design. So the natural question I bring up in the vid, that I think is interesting to discuss, is how far can an RPG game move away from traditional RPG elements before it starts to alienate that fanbase? At this time I think no one actually knows ha, myself included.
RPG gameplay is character progression, i.e., "leveling up" and acquiring new abilities and equipment. That's the only consistent gameplay feature I see in every RPG. Most RPG's take the form of a "coming-of-age"-style power fantasy of character progression as the primary selling point. Of course, as said in the video, the "RPG-ification" of video games means that pretty much everything has "leveling up" mechanics nowadays. Also, I would say that story (including exploring and making your own adventure) often takes priority over moment-by-moment core gameplay in RPG's. That's why RPG's tend to be more casual, slower-paced, and with such an inconsistent variety of different types of gameplay implemented in a highly-accessible way. It's why RPG's are mostly single player or co-op because the player-vs-player RPG gameplay is mostly a contest of who put more time/energy into progressing their character which is boring. Plenty of RPG franchises like Final Fantasy will significantly overhaul their core gameplay mechanics with none of it being too sacred to touch. It's also why the top RPG's like Baldur's Gate 3 tend to get praised for their story elements and less for their moment-by-moment core gameplay mechanics. If a game prioritizes moment-by-moment core gameplay, it generally has some additional gameplay-based genre modifier (i.e., Turn-Based Tactics RPG or Action RPG). As an example, the Fire Emblem games are labeled Tactical RPG, and it's debated whether the priority is on the Tactical or the RPG side. P.S. I'm totally fine with RPG's fully committing to action game mechanics. Nothing wrong with a game having an awesome story (with every cutscene being optionally skippable, why not), engaging action combat mechanics, and a detailed progression system. It's a difficult balancing act, and something usually falls through the cracks, but a big franchise like Final Fantasy would have the necessary resources to make a legitimate attempt.
I am going to ruffle some feathers, but the truth is the truth. Gather around the camp fire kids, it's time for a history lesson. Gary Gygax fundamentally created D&D with roots to Wargaming which is a pure combat system played all the way by the Aristocrats and Elites of the Prussian Empire. Original D&D (OD&D) was somewhat of a simulation that was meant test individual skills which are logic, deduction, agency and volition. In it's original state it was always meant to be a dungeon crawler, the story portion isn't what a traditional story was supposed to be, but the active actions that you took would inevitable lead to a story at the end of a play session. This is what free form stories are like instead of a narrative that has already been concocted for you ala what we call now theme park rides. D&D after 3.0 and some even argue 3.0 itself, is not considered an RPGs, since it does not possess challenge or any test of skills of the attributes I've listed. Also, Square Enix has been wanting to make real time combat ever since Advent Children.
yeah I get the feeling that rpgs as they are considered today, are sort of a middle ground away from even the fundamental rpg game mechanics, which is a really interesting idea to consider ha, since the genre has become so heavily associated with storytelling
I strongly agree with this take in regards to RPG being hailed of the most highly rated games game's because "freedom" they are the reason as to why the haming industry feels stale. This is why Elden Ring got so many praises for being "a different type of RPG." We need more variety popular franchise in games for sure. FF16 is amazing in my opinion.
Ff16 is dmc but i dont blame yoshi p hes the goat music on point combat on point story ok People who say ff16 is mid clearly just suck at games cauze they use the auto button clear gear no skill just ass 😔
yeah the tricky part of the game's combat system is that is does have depth and genuinely flexible moveset, but I think an issue is that difficulty of the game is too low, so it's not forcing players to engage in the combat more deeply.
@@TheElectricUnderground i mean i understand it but final fantasy never was meant to be hard Yoshi P invented Dante Must Die i mean a final fantasy with a dante must die difficulty would be slick maybe with a update we get a harder difficulty for ng + People Play Games like dark souls to ng+10 or so i can see people play ff16 ng+3 with new stuff like in dark souls like new spells and weapons from ng+4 or so
That whole beginning section, I knew games were implementing trendy mechanics that didn't belong to them and slowly move away from their identity, but damn I didn't notice it to THIS degree.
Games are truly just stealing from each other at this point.
yeah I think all mainstream games are looking at other franchises with eyes shining with envy and mouths watering. No doubt about it they are getting greedy and it's affecting their game design. FF16 is just a really amusing turn in this trend as it is a larger genre, RPG, trying to scoop up a rather small audience, character action games ha. I get the feeling that this will be a one off experiment though, as the cost of alienating too many rpg fans, though I find it interesting, will probably hurt the sales of the game ultimately.
Always has been tbh
@@neonjm8289 Blizzard was the king of taking 'inspiration' from other games and polishing the gameplay and quality for a more casual audience to make top tier games. All their biggest games are the result of seeing a developer make a game and thinking "We can do that too, in our own way" and thus we have the Warcraft, Diablo and StarCraft franchises come into existence.
24:42 This has been confirmed to be the case by the devs. FFIV's combat designer Hiroyuki Ito has openly stated that the ATB system was introduced to increase the excitement and intensity of battles. Moreover, he wasn't the game's original combat designer - that was Hiromichi Tanaka, who had worked on game design for the first three entries. He had likewise intended for the game to have more action-oriented combat than the previous games, although his proposals were deemed too radical a shift at the time, so he moved over to work on the Mana series instead to implement his ideas there.
Ito was a mentor for a lot of other influential people to work on the series, including Nomura, who had continued to apply his design philosophy. For FFX-2 Nomura and Kitase's team clearly felt confident enough to push the ATB system further and make it faster, which they then used as a base for the heavily modified version used in XIII and XIII-2 (my favourite iteration of ATB), while Ito had forked it in his own direction for FFXII, which retains slower than the XIII series but places greater emphasis on positioning.
What a fantastic and informative comment Duke!! Yes I love to read this sort of stuff because this tension in the series between action combat and turn based combat is so fascinating and usually FF fans tend to side with the turn based combat side of things, whereas i'm more partial the action combat ideas ha. At some point on the channel I'd love to have a larger discussion on the role of gameplay in rpg, because it still feels very up in the air.
@@TheElectricUndergroundIn regards to turn based FF fans, the cutoff point for the series is generally regarded as X-2. For some reason they consider the pure turn-based combat of the first three to be more or less interchangeable with the older ATB games, but the versions used from X-2 to XIII-2 make too many concessions to action games for their liking. Then of course you have the move away from ATB towards purer action game combat between Lightning Returns and XVI that is even worse in their eyes.
To be fair I can understand their frustration, since the series has gone 20 years now without making enough concessions to keep them happy, and to rub salt in the wound there are no satisfactory high-budget alternatives to turn to aside from Dragon Quest, which itself has threatened to go in a more action-oriented direction for DQXII. They've effectively gone two decades without _any_ major Japanese company - not limited to just Square Enix - giving them what they want.
Great contribution here Duke, please keep at it 🙏
But positioning doesn't matter in XII...
@@dukeofhmph6348Well there are the Atlus games and SMT, right?
I’m also sort of puzzled no one has mentioned VII Remake in the comments here, only because its combat seemed to garner pretty broad approval in general.
I love your takes on stuff. Now I’m just waiting for Dragon Quest XII to be a boomer shooter
Give it time crow, give it time XD One day all games shall be the same genre it seems
Apparently there is a KOF danmaku game, that’s almost as bizarre.
If it was a boomer shooter it might be good. A good boomer shooter slash survival horror is system shock. Give the remake a whirl. Oh make sure to print out a strat guide for it off of game faqs. Your going to need it.
LOL has there ever been a good Jap boomer shooter though? Even that Splat-Toon crap boring as hell & too basic to me. I thought Metroid Prime was the best Japanese FPS only to find out that it's made by the same Brits who did the N64 Turok games. Prime Space Pirates actually juke & flank you unlike every other Jap shooter. I don't count Vanquish, that's an action game with guns.
When you beat the game it remixes the enemies and ups difficulty with a "final fantasy" mode
this is unironically the best review of a game i've ever seen. at least it was my favorite. I watched many reviews of FFXVI before this one, but only after watching this I finally feel like I understand what experience i would have, which should probably be the goal of all reviews.
I'm very happy to hear that lucy :-) Yes I do try my best to get to the heart of the game design and I'm glad my analysis was useful! I think a lot of reviewers are sort of caught up in the legacy of the series a bit to where it is harder to take the game's individually, which is what I try to do.
I personally am a Souls gamer, and I want games to have that same simplicity and dodge canceling, difficult, I-framing goodness, but I don't want every genre to become Souls, I want turn based, action, adventure, puzzle, platforming etc. Genre games to exist, because they each have their own character and niche. I'm not interested in FFXVI because it seems not to have made a specific choice with what it wanted to be, character-action? Or story based RPG? If it had made a stronger choice, I'd be more willing to try it.
oh this is a great point charles. I agree that what I like about the souls games is their emphasis on fundamentals of combat, frames and hitboxes. However, like you say, I think devs are being way too derivative and literally just copying souls as a formula. Whereas what they should be doing is analyzing why souls works (the fundamental combat) and then incorporating that design concept into their games. Devs used to do this once upon a time ha.
Did Lies of P do that?
Stranger of Paradise is the real action FF game
I believe it :-) team ninja baby. I m gonna try it soon, but still it being a spin off game is a bit less crazy, at least economically, than ff16 a mainline entry going so hard in the action direction
16 is flat out more fun
As a fan of various RPG franchises with very different structures and gameplay mechanics, I can tell you that there is a serious divide within the community regarding Story V.S. Gameplay, and it stems from the fact that many franchises _actually do put gameplay over story._
Some examples that you might be interested in checking out could be:
• The Romancing SaGa / SaGa Frontier games.
• The Shin Megami Tensei games (not to be confused with the more popular subseries Persona; mainline SMT is far more gameplay focused).
• The Grandia games.
• Almost all Dungeon Crawlers (like Etrian Odyssey and Wizardry).
• Many western CRPGs (like Divinity Original Sin 2 and Pillars of Eternity).
• Many Strategy RPGs (like Fire Emblem 5 through 12 and, funnily enough, the two portable sequels to Final Fantasy Tactics).
• And I have the feeling that you might enjoy Final Fantasy 5 more than most entries in the series, since it's the biggest example of gameplay over story in the entire franchise. Lots of customization and a decent challenge.
You should check some of these suggestions. Maybe you could find something that mixes well with your game preferences, Mark. 😎👍
Oh for sure, one rpg series I enjoy (until Stupid 3 houses) is fire emblem because it s just get right into the tactical combat and it s not too stat heavy. My issue isn't so much turn based combat is combat that involves a lot of inventory and stat management and of course any fetch questing
I loved the hell out of smt apocalypse, but good lord those games command high prices.
so does etrian odyssey.
FF 16 didnt do that. There is no gameplay besides button mash combat. What else is there to do???
As more towards a RPG player, I appreciate the "pointing where you should go next" feature. So that I could avoid that direction and explore other nook and crannies without accidentally triggering the next phase sequence.
lol truuue
I always love seeing you branch outside of shmups and bringing that "game mechanics brain" to other genres. I'd love to see a video on the Vampire Survivors craze that's going around, given how many comments I've seen from casual non-shmups players about how they're similar to bullet hells. Would be cool to have a real shmups expert weigh in, haha
I don't think adding a global cooldown is a good idea, that would make comboing using special moves bad. They should do the opposite, lower damage specials with way lower cooldowns to encourage combos and using the moves at specific times. Global cooldowns wouldn't fix a current issue where you open every fight with a screen clear move and then the fight's over, by the next fight that screen clear is back.
With elites at half stagger they could've allowed juggling with a super moves. It would encourage using supers that do more than just damage and make fights more dynamic. Maybe juggling like that builds bonus stagger on a downed enemy who's stagger meter has come back, that way there's an aspect of risk and reward.
Those are the two biggest issues for me, overpowered supers and unreactive elites.
You could absolutely be right here Jim. I admit I didn't explore the special move meta as much as I could have because them being OP annoyed me so much that my first thought was, get rid of these suckers ha. But you are probably right that since the combat system is so heavily designed around them, maybe making them less special and more just moves in general would be a reasonable solution.
@@TheElectricUnderground understandable
This comment is coming almost a year late but I hope as a long-time RPG fan I can answer your question about what an RPG is and where it falls as far as a story or a game.
I think the definition that most will agree with is that an RPG is defined by its progression. Stats, leveling up, abilities, magic, equipment, all part of its core design. That sounds like RPGs are gameplay with stories attached. However, all RPG video games share one common ancestor: Dungeons and Dragons, which I'd argue is a storytelling form that uses gameplay to compliment. The DM is a narrator and the players interject their contributions to the story. The dice rolls and character management is simply a way to include risk and raise the emotional stakes. Furthermore, considering how the father of console JRPGs Yuji Hori made Dragon Quest by blending his prior game, a visual novel, with D&D, I think RPGs are more stories with games attached. But these games can ride the line very closely.
So few reviewers understand the abstract systems of video games that it makes me sad that you don't like RPGs. We need more reviewers like you. I love RPGs for both their story and their gameplay, but so many reviewers simply list gameplay mechanics and never analyze them, and RPGs can't get better if we don't have legitimate criticism for their gameplay. Anyway hope this answers your question 1 year too late haha.
the thing the I felt when I played FFXVI is that they really wanted to abandon the rpg elements and just wanted to go full action game, but for obligatory purposes, they were forced to put some sort of rpg element.
Completely agree with that. It felt a little half baked in some areas where the RPG elements seem forced. I’m genuinely enjoying the storyline, and even the combat grew on me as I played. I’m about 70% through the game and the pros have made up for the flaws for me.
I completely disagree with that given the Producer/Director's track record, which I don't know why anyone covering this game would just choose to ignore, including all of the interviews with him.
Naoki Yoshida was in charge of directing Final Fantasy XIV and while it gained popularity and became a success by flat out copying WoW(seeing a trend here?) it also meant that, in an attempt to gain mass popularity, that is to say, attract a newer casual audience, he would end up streamlining and removing anything that would resemble an RPG(it sounds way more similar now huh).
Gear with minimal stats, treadmills that do nothing for you character or the world that take a long while to fill up, jobs that are very similar to one another. Linear story with zero role-playing to do, no customization at all ever aside from visual.
He's the great streamliner. The lack of RPG mechanics is completely intentional, not something he bargained for. Just enough to be an RPG but not quite enough to have any depth.
I feel like RPG levelling mechanics is a crutch devs use to make players who don't want to get better at the games they play still like their game. The illusion of getting better via your avatar can do more stuff/does more damage/has more health/etc. vs. the player themselves getting better at navigating the game with the toolset they start out with at the opening of the game and learning how to effectively manipulate their strengths and weaknesses as the levels twist and bend the rules to force a reaction out of the player...i.e. that reaction that best be made is 'get better, figure out why you're losing and turn it into a win'.
This is true until you old school DnD and classic jrpgs and crpgs with actually challenging content
I don't know if you'll read this, since the video is older, but I'm a huge fan of FFXVI, and I also oddly enough like to read what other people thought and see things from a different perspective.
Watching your review was great and it actually helped me get even better combos off in my gameplay! Seeing you show the cancels really opened up a whole new move-set in the later game and I'm on my NG+++ and still discovering new techs and new options for combos.
If there was anything I could change about the game it would be 2 things.
1. For the Ultimaniac mode to be available as a fully fledged campaign difficulty, that would really push the edge to many players in regards to difficulty.
2. For the cooldowns to go away and have them be triggered by combinations the player makes in the inputs. (Phoenix Shift can still be triggered by the ability button, but the rising flame can only be triggered by holding back on the control stick and pressing x and square, and by buffering x you can jump to continue the string combo)
You can still limit the loadout to 3 Eikons, but now you can have access to all the abilities from those eikons without having to worry about the mapping of those abilities to just 2 buttons and instead open it up to the player to use the full kits of the eikons via their player inputs.
In a perfect world I would love the ability to use all of the moveset at my discretion, but I think the above wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.
Anyway, thank you for your review, I loved it, even if I didn't agree on it all, and at the end of it, I learned something new, thank you!
Nice review, as a long time oldschool Final Fantasy fan who didn't even bother anymore with most new entries, this one catched my interest and I got it right away. Have not started it yet apart from the demo a few weeks before.
I feel like I'm a bit in a strange place since I do enjoy both hardcore RPGs with lots of management and slow pace (like not even only console stuff like SMT or similiar, but even extremely deep text-heavy tactical CRPGs such as Divinity or Baldurs Gate) but also can put a lot of time in Arcade stuff from fighting to shooting to rhythm.
I do get though where you're coming from. And basically, I think it comes down to "does this game respects the players time". I like fast action, but also slow paced story moments. I mean even after years of playing them, I still sometimes enjoy watching character intros and story stuff in old SNK fighting games because they are so lovingly created and enjoyable. But those things need to be entertaining or/and well done or/and optional. There's game design which gives you lots of interesting little things to interact with and then there's needless grindy filler or making the player waste time. Like badly written sidequest dialogues which I guess many a JRPG can be accused of ..
Anyway, looking forward to start FF16 up soon!
Fantastic comment!! Absolutely the golden rule is respecting the players time, I think if devs use that across the board genre wise that is a great starting point ha
Would like to see your take on the Zeno Clash games, especially the newest one, Clash: Artifacts of Chaos.
the game looks interesting, I really like the over the shoulder Godhand style camera though! I wish more games used this camera perspective.
The way you talk just makes me laugh so hard, you're so genuine with your criticisms it's refreshing.
Back in the day, I chose Demon’s Souls over Dragon Age Origins for my PS3. As a Bioware fan, I know I missed-out, but I have zero regrets in embracing Demon’s Souls. I wanted that merciless, realtime combat and unguided exploration so bad. RPGs needs variety beyond its bounds, but not beyond its means. Jade Empire, BG: Dark Alliance, Diablo 2, Tales-of, YYYs, Mass Effect, I mean…. Is it really the End of Days for RPG fans who have been embracing these changes for several, several years already? I don’t think it’s the fusion of genres that’s the issue I see. It’s the gentrification of overused game mechanics, that become too vanilla to taste different overtime, like… the new Avatar game Ubisoft is making. It looks waaaay too much like a FarCry clone for my tastes, complete with Outpost/Stronghold reprints of game design. Too safe, too samey. The immersion is more in the aesthetics than in the gameplay. Tangent aside, great video. Made me think about a lot of stuff here. Like Final Fantasy: Adventure on my GameBoy. Played just like Zelda. And that was 1991. I just think that the variety of RPG game design has been there for a good while. Why the fire? Lol.
Oh yes the souls series is such a strong fusion of rpg and character action because even though the combat is slower, it is still really fundimental as is emphasizing spacing and frame data. The reason why nioh is my fav souls game is that it takes that concept, but then adds in more character action elements like cancels (ki pulse) and just speeds combat up generally
@@TheElectricUnderground What you observe about the combat cancels in-particular with Nioh, Wanted: Dead, and FFXVI are really interesting. Spacing and frame data is the kind-of talk about fighting games. To me, Nioh is the ultimate example of how-to make a technically-proficient fighting game in Souls' form. And I JUST found-out about the complex tiers of New Game + for Nioh 2. They are truly a step above anything Soulslike that I've ever seen in-terms of gameplay complexity. And as a passionate fan of Chanbara films, I couldn't be happier with what's out there today for video games of this ilk. I'll be very much looking forward to your thoughts on Rise of the Ronin when it drops.
when it comes to story vs gameplay in RPGs i also wanna add that i feel like open world games and story games and rpg games are separate. (although most of the time mixed for them sweet review scores and hype) i think a good example of an open world game has to be morrowind since it is essentially just a 3d wikipedia with hyperlinked dialogue system, where the player is some anonymous non-entity that transparently explores a fictional 3d world, where the story only exists to compound on the lore (while in most other media lore is a justification for the story), similarly combat system only exists to compound on the lore: its very clear in the lore that magic is OP and so in morrowind you eventually either have to use enchanted weapons or learn magic.
wait I just check and you never play STRANGER OF PARADISE???? how?
I have it actually ha, Bog is a massive fan of it so I'll probably be playing it and covering it on the channel in the future.
@@TheElectricUnderground OH!!!! Check the multiplayer mode.
I really need to play Stranger of Paradise!
Final Fantasy/RPGs gameplay vs story:
I think combat is a minor reason to play these games. It always has been for me. Combat was not the primary thing that made me have fun. Even when I was a young child and played Zelda or Mario the thing that got me hooked was less the way I interacted with enemies, because I was bad at that. The challenge did not hook me. It was the ability to see more of the levels. Really, often just visually seeing more of the game world was my primary motivation, getting to experience some cool thing that only happens once you reach a specific stage (the chime and celebration of defeating a Zelda boss, getting a heart container). When FF7 and 8 and 9 dropped I was not in it to play with Materia, GF junctions or whatever. I wanted to see 3D worlds and move around in them and feel like I was living in that world. I wanted to enter a train and ride it somewhere, I wanted to go into a casino and play mini games, I wanted to ask strangers if they want to play cards, I wanted to seek out chocobo, tame them, breed them and ride them, I wanted to have an airship and see every little bit of ground texture there was to find in that polygon world, enter every hidden location and see what's in there.
Over time my tastes grew into other areas, mostly because the illusion of being in a game world became less and less obtainable for me. So I learned to settle for other stuff like learning to enjoy optimizing speed/score/damage output/control. A lot of the things arcade games are known for are definitely fun to me now, I got good at some of them. But the kick I get out of any of that is nowhere near what my childhood self got out of the fantasy of living in a video game world. So I fully expect that some people get A LOT out of experiencing the passive elements like cutscenes and stuff. I don't anymore. But man, they can pack a punch.
In a year filled with disappointing AAA titles FFXVI set a new standard in awful non-games 🤷♂️ most of the interaction (such as it is) happens something like this: watch a cutscene somewhere between 3-10 minutes in length, these cutscenes will often consist of two or three static figures talking at one another without lip sync, walk or run forwards towards a marker, open a door or gate (this often requires a quick time event for some reason) have a fight, which on the normal difficulty (the highest that can be selected for a first playthrough) will be so easy that it can be won with only two buttons, watch a cutscene 3-10 minutes long and repeat. It is the most miserable slog of a game I have experienced in quite some time, the only positive contribution it has made to the franchise is that it makes FFXV look like some sort of rpg masterpiece by comparison.
I can def feel where you are coming from, I do think if you are a veteran of the series it's gonna be a thumb in your eyeball (hence the title of my vid ha). For me though, I never watch cutscenes, so no worries for me in terms of story, and yeah the combat is much too easy in my book. I think I beat 2/3rds of the game without ever dying ha. But why I am a bit more open minded to this release is that I do like the concept and I do think the fundamental design of the combat is well made. It's just that they have the tuning of the system way off with being too easy and the summons being way too OP. But this is also the case with Bayonetta 3 and frankly a lot of character action games (which I will critique as well). So it does also feel a bit selective to let DMC and bayo off the hook for very similar issues but specifically smack down FF16 due to it being under scrutiny more. But yes, the game clearly needs a big re balance with difficulty and summon damage/cooldown.
My sentiments exactly. I’m about to fight Odin and I got bored as hell. Grinding the battle pass in Street Fighter 6 is actually more enjoyable than watching what I’m sure is going to be an epic battle, filled with exactly 30,000 button presses and maybe a cheap death while I learn the boss pattern.
0:10 that genre of game is the award or goty genre.
Interesting analysis I still need the game for PC as I hate Sony but, this game caught my attention, did you play the DLCs?
FF is easier until you find those mytical soab Bahamut, Virtue, Omega they are hell.
I used your guide on Ninja Gaiden 2 (not the remaster) and have not looked back. Thanks man.
Oh fantastic!!! Yes OG NG2 is incredible, my fav action game ever
Coming back to this nearly a year later. I really enjoyed this take on FF16. I loved it for the most part. I'll concede that it's a little to easy for a game this long but it didn't bother me. The only major complaint I have is on the games pacing. I'll never understand putting not one but two full chapters of filler in-between two of the biggest story beats in the game. Just a weird choice and definitely a miss there.
I'm glad my review has connected with you because it's a unique perspective on the game I think ha, and I agree that the game could have been something extremely cool if they had tightened up the pace more and then balanced the spells at the end to be less OP so that the melee combat stayed more central :-)
@@TheElectricUndergroundthe arcade mode and new kairos gate mode are really fun to play and even push the leaderboards. Leaderboards for individual stages is such a great idea, going for top 100 in all of them got me into playing score attack games
22:17 it's always been interesting (and somewhat annoying) to me how so much emphasis has been put on the story-side of video games in recent years. It's almost as if people conceive of video games now as vehicles to tell a story, rather than anything like, I dont know, have decent gameplay, be fun etc?. I remember watching a video review of Ninja Gaiden II here on TY, and the thing the guy spends most time on is the game's story... Who the F*** plays NG2 for the story? lol.
Unbelievable. I’ve been the guy who doesn’t care about story at all in video games. People get really heated over the story in a Sonic game.
"Franchise known for being RPGs shits on RPGs and here's why that is a good thing"
indeed! What's funny is that clearly FF is looking for a crossover audience of action game players, I am in that crossover audience, so I thought it would be interesting to view the game from the criteria, especially since RPG oriented critics tend to dominate the review space to begin with. So I think the idea of making a crossover FF game is cool, it's just a question of if they pull it off or not ha.
RPGs are not about gameplay or story. The dogma that those are the only two sides of the coin puts us on improper footing right from the start. RPGs are about immersion. To actually role-play, you should feel immersed in the world, as though you are the character. Not merely controlling the character, but experiencing what they are experiencing through their eyes. And I'm not talking literally (first-person view), but things they might feel too. Certain RPGs do e.g. skits between the characters, like Tales of Symphonia or FF15. (they're still really limiting, but FF15 at least gives you one or two dialogue choices) These skits are not directly about the story/plot, but what the characters are individually thinking. To role-play, you should have a lot of influence here. (Lionhead/Fable, BioWare, Bethesda, and Obsidian, do more in this area than Japanese-style RPGs)
It's not a movie reel to experience. It's not baddies that need to be punched. It's about exploring the world, finding/acquiring new gear in ways that complement the lore of the world. Lore (history, culture) is more important than story (directed plotline) in a real RPG. It should not feel like a game. It should not feel like a movie. Kind of like how VR is its own medium. Real RPGs feel like their own thing.
But necessarily these are video games and so it's unlikely you'll get a totally pure RPG experience. But there are lots of various elements in various games that get really close to that magic sauce.
Very nice review. It's so rare to see a review _actually_ do some analysis, and go beyond surface-depth.
I don't quite get you. You can't cancel your attacks in any dmc except for some rare examples like those multi-hits in Rebellion combo B. You certainly can't cancel any of you finishers. You can only cancel things in air via enemy step, that's it. The only thing that you can call cancellable is your recovery frames, but that goes for any action game really.
When I saw the trailer for this I thought it looked pretty good. Haven't checked it out yet but might do! Do feel a bit more convinced after this video aha. I always wonder whether cancels are intentional or forgot to be patched out. I remember playing a game on the PSP back in the old days which was live action think it was called crisis core.
Although I'm not that big of a fan of being able to just follow rotation in a game and just use that same rotation over and over.
yeah it is funny when you have to try to figure out if the combat system is intended to have cancels, or if they are looked over lol. Typically there are signs though, like in ff16 the fact that the string continues is a good sign that they are intentional.
For me, there is no reason gameplay and story need to be separate with one being the focus over the other. But if I had to nail down and point at a singular part of RPGs that makes it through all of these games and that makes them worthwhile to play it would be ROLE-PLAYING. That is, even though I am using the protagonist, I am choosing how to play. I'm adapting the party to my playstyle or executing a specific strategy, for flavor or for function, because I want to do it.
The game provides the tools for me to play how I want, I can tackle the side quests I want, I can go wherever I want. I'll obtain something or perhaps even unlock a whole new character with its own new set of variables and it will all be my choice to do so. I think that's what RPGs are or should be about.
If you think about it, FF games with little to no choice, or variance, or 'role-playing' were received very poorly. FF13 practically massacred the series. FF15 was also a joke for most people because the open world was weak and offered little to no role-playing. I also put FF14 in there, one of the worst MMORPGs to poison the genre. FF16 seems to follow this awful trend with the Director Naoki Yoshida streamlining things that are too complicated (too Japanese) out of this game as well (just like he did with FF14) in 'an attempt to gain a younger audience'. Just look at the sales for this particular game, people aren't having this pseudo-RPGs in their Final Fantasy anymore.
Did you play Stranger of Paradise? That game is everything I would expect a Final Fantasy action RPG to be. Great story, great gameplay, VERY in-depth RPG mechanics that actually improve the gameplay rather than get in the way of combat. It's a very nice Nioh-like in terms of mechanics but with the classic classes from FF.
Thanks for this. For some reason I just fucking love this game, to an unreasonable degree, but anytime I look on UA-cam it’s all videos like “disappointing… what went wrong”. I know the game has its issues but dammit I just wanna indulge my hyperfixation on a game by sitting down and listening to a positive long form video on it sometimes.
Odin splits the damn ocean in half how can you not like how over the top this game is people? Lol
as for gameplay focused rpgs i highly recomend the megami tensei games post nocturne,you will most likely dislike persona for the higher focus on story and simplyfied gameplay but the main line series,specially nocturne,have a insanely deep combat system where every mechanic intaracts with one another,nothing is railroaded like most jrpgs(not even your party members)nor does the game cares if you haven´t learned the combat system and will heavily punish you for playing dumb
That's really cool, yes I'm seeing this series being recommended in the comments a lot so I'll have to check it out :-) I do remember there was a fire emblem crossover at some point? So that would make sense that the game is more tactical than something like persona.
Damn a good review for a final fantasy game round these parts, just a shame that I don't own a PS5. Congrats on the review though great stuff.
Thank you very much Riff! I heard it's coming to PC and stuff later on though, so no hurry ha. Maybe by that time some of the combat balance will be patched up too.
I'm into both action games and RPGs. I've finished several FF, SMT and DQ games, and I've finished several action games to 100% completion such as DMC4, Vanquish, and DMC5. It honestly feels like FFXVI was made for me. It has fun gameplay coupled with a cheesey yet enjoyable story. Personally, I'd love to see the framework of FFXVI to be used to make a Vampire Hunter D game complete with the potential of crazy bosses. Only issues for me is that it's too easy and the structure in certain points of the game (like the Mid quests) were pretty bad.
I'll say this. Regarding the mechanic where the camera would zoom into where you need to go, it's not too big of an issue. Reason for that is it's pretty common for modern RPGs to have waypoints. So is there really a difference between the camera zooming into to where you need to go and some mini-map telling you where to go? Not really.
Yes the game is really aimed at that crossover audience which I don't even know is a good business move ha, but it is a pretty cool concession made to action game players. But absolutely they made the game too easy and the balance needs work, as you can just steamroll most the game with special attacks midpoint onward. Also good point on the camera navigation ha
If you want to play an actual action RPG based on Final Fantasy, do yourself a favor and play Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin.
I will actually ha! so keep an eye out for that, as I am a big team ninja fan and boghog convinced me to buy the game.
i’m pretty sure they did bring in a combat designer from devil may cry to advise on 16
Thank you for the very detailed review (as usual)- i still haven't bought FFVI, as my PS5 broke a couple of months back, but that's clearly the first game i'll buy in tandem with a new PS5.
No problem my friend!! Yeah FF16 is a pretty cool sweetspot for people who like character action games and are interested in some FF graphical goodness ha. i just hope the rebalance the combat soon so that summon spam isn't so strong and central to the combat by the end.
@@TheElectricUnderground 🙏
Perfectly summarized video of my experiences. I feel bad watching people make long combos because eventually it's a detriment since Eikons start pumping out crazy damage/stagger (wtf does Impulse do so much, Jesus) making combos wholly inefficient, FFXVI/Bayonetta comparison was very good, it's the reason why I prefer Bayo 2; summons are too OP (Tarantula self-nuke to clear most waves is pretty efficient) and/or it sends enemies flying too much.
I think the main value of RPGs is that most RPG players like doing Strategy etc and finding the most optimal solutions etc but I will always prefer skills over having to min/max builds and the like. At least for me, I'd rather die to skill issues than because RNGesus doing OHK moves constantly, running out of items, money/exp grinding etc.
I value efficiency the most when I play and Action Games offer that more than some RPGs.
PS. I hate Animation Locks, I still wonder how I beat NG1 when I was younger....
Right!, a full on action game. What a change. However, I do want to see a regular rpg comeback again.
I would be willing to bet that this move into some heavy action game design will not continue ha, I think this is more of an isolated incident in the series and ff17 will return to turn based combat.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yes, I think it will go back after this one. We still got FF Remake 2 on the way tho, lol. What is your twitter? I just made a video and shouted you out in it.
As someone who cannot stand the vast majority of RPGs aka interactive generic stories, this is definitely something of interest to me. Will RPG fans like a game that actually requires a little skill though? 😂
All games require some sort of skill. Otherwise it wouldn't be a game.
I have no idea who dj420 praise it is, but i always listen out for it in the Patreon shout outs it's just funny how his name gets extra hype in your voice.
I appreciate you sir. You convinced me to not get the RE4REMAKE,and you’ve now convinced me to get FF16. I will admit I was hesitant with this one,as FF15 was an auto one button game,and FF7 REMAKE was good,but too linear.
I agree with about 99% of what you’re saying here but the only place where I’d disagree is what turn based games feel “prescribed”. If you only play bland turn based games like Pokémon or Dragon Quest or dare I even say most traditional FF games (please don’t shoot me commenters)
But there are plenty of other turn based series that deal with turn manipulation, buffing/debuffing and other things to juggle that make every “turn” feel incredibly important and decisive. It’s just annoying because the very simplistic and bland ones get pushed to the top, the ones where it’s just; attack, attack, heal. Anyways, great video otherwise I just wanted to comment on that one part.
Oh i cant hear this anymore.. RPGs from Japan and Final Fantasy need to be turn based in order to be a RPG? F*Ck that for that ignorance, for real... a "The Witcher 3" can bea realtime and no one cries about the "deepness" of this combat.. FF16 still has strategy in the combat.. not to talk about side quests to explain the world more.. or character and monster levels to make this still a rpg..
this is the discussion that I do want to have about on this channel pretty soon actually, like nailing down at least in fans minds, what core rpg mechanical design is, because right now I think it's really unclear.
im a big action game fan and a disillusioned lifelong final fantasy fan, and ironically what convinced me to play this game is your point that the game has a level-like map. i can't stand open world games and i feared this would be another like XV. i can go ride my motorcycle for 45 minutes in real life and it will be MORE fun than any in-game exploration. i can't fight a dragon in real life. i don't want to spend 45 minutes riding a fake motorcycle with the hope of maybe finding a dragon to fight. hope that makes sense
i retract my "ironically". there isn't really anything ironic in this comment lmao
+10 respect points for the proper usage of figurative language ha!
Oh man I will never forget how mgs5 insisted on doing this crappy open map design and then also forced you to watch chopper cutscenes over and over, WTF Kojima ha. How that game escaped getting absolutely torched by reviews in terms of it's map and level design is proof of how passive game reviewers truly are.
ff16 will go down as the worst FF title when all is said and done
I think it will definitely be one of the most divisive titles in the series for sure. Right now it's sitting at only 3 million copies in sales, but I'm curious how that number will jump (or not) when it comes out on pc.
Ok rpg fanboy
I only play RPGs, if that makes me a "fanboy", then sure im a proud "rpg fanboy"@@G-Manfromhalflife
I don't really care anymore. There are many great Indy studios creating amazing ACTUAL RPGs that are way better than any Final Fantasy has been for decades.
There are RPG Maker games that are miles better than any modern FF game.
Story probably has always been top priority for RPGs but, obviously it's best if the two can work together as well as possible so they should be able to stand on their own
9:59 cancel frame of the video 😂
Its funny that you enjoyed it somewhat thanks to the combat, me I need my RPGs to be turn based. When I want action I play action games. I dont really enjoy the mix.
I am the salty JRPG fan here, you nailed this topic more than anyone I am quite literally seething about the dismantlement of my genre because of this, and you are just like "yeah I admit it" 😎.
3:00 Fax!!! I’m tired of every action game trying to be slow and methodical. The world doesn’t need anymore Souls clones. Nioh and SOP get a pass from me for being some of the few loot ARPGs that aren’t glorified clicker games.
"Not everything needs to be a Dark Souls clone"
Truer words have never been said.
Yes, but at the very least they need to be challenging and engaging in their own way, like Dark Souls.
@@TheCyclicGamer Games have been challenging long before Dark Souls ever existed. No not every game needs to be as unforgiving as dark souls and I wouldn't call that gameplay loop engaging personally but I know people like it
@@sadisticD I said challenging and engaging, not unforgiving.
Besides, you think Dark Souls is unforgiving? Try the Gradius games, or Air Combat PS1 on hard mode.
@@TheCyclicGamer I would say Dark Souls and souls-likes in general are unforgiving and I wouldn't call them engaging personally. The challenge comes from their unforgiving nature more than anything else and yes I'm familiar with more challenging games. I came up in the 8 bit and 16 bit era so things like the original Castlevania trilogy, Double Dragon, and Ghosts and Goblins were the norm. Probably why I get irritated when people act like games weren't challenging before Dark Souls or something or like anything in a souls game is new or original. I'm also a Ninja Gaiden fan not that liking some challenging games means anything other than it's a preference. I also like my games to actually be fun and not a depressing slog.
I understand that I'm old. I'm 46 and I grew up with the original Final Fantasy. I also understand they aren't making Final Fantasy with my tastes in mind. I prefer turn based as it provides some strategy in fighting as in the older tabletop combat mechanics. As someone facetiously put it, "Young people today with their TikTok brains can't slow down so they prefer hit x repeatedly to beat something until it stops moving." That may be some of it but also many didn't grow up with RPGs either electronically or tabletop.
Turn-based RPGs have always been more of a niche market and as costs for AAA games have skyrocketed, developers and publishers have looked around to try to grab the majority of the market and that majority is action oriented. The indie market is filling the void with cheaper and competent turn based RPGs. Ara Fell is a great turn based game and if you just hit A to fight a battle you will get your butt handed to you. The boss battles do require some strategy and tactics.
Some major studios have also decided to make what I call B-tier games that cater to me as well; Squarenix themselves have made the Bravely Default series which feels like the original six Final Fantasy games and in my opinion is the current spiritual successor to the Final Fantasy name. They have also made Octopath Traveler, and don't forget the RPGs made by their subsidiary, Tokyo RPG Factory.
So yes, Final Fantasy 16 is not for me and I'm ok with that.
As an RPG player, yes, it is both the story and gameplay that are the appeal. In the ideal case, anyway. I'd say that RPG fans have a higher tolerance for prolonged story elements so they can enjoy both the gameplay and the story. And yes, RPG fans actually do like turn based combat. It has it's own appeal separate to other styles of play.
I enjoy character action games too but I think franchises should stay in their lane more often, y'know? Not everything should appeal to everyone. I think there are ways for both RPGs and Character Action franchises to improve what they're good at without genre jumping and losing half their existing audience.
I love how you mention that all the genres are merging. However, I'm not sure you see the full scope of what that means. You mention RPG fans have been getting a lot of Ws recently because of RPG mechanics in other genres? That's actually quite wrong as there are hardly any proper turn-based RPGs left! Nearly all of them have been turned into Action RPGs and it's driving us nuts! Yakuza 7 is the only real W we got and gosh darnit that's sweet revenge after what SEGA has done to all their other RPG series...ESPECIALLY poor Sakura Wars. Oof. The thing is, RPG mechanics in other genres doesn't make them more paletable to RPG fans because RPG fans are fans of RPGs and that game still isn't an RPG. Genre is very important and seeing them all merge like this is frustrating because really, no one wins.
I'm reminded of what happened during the 7th generation when PC and Console games merged. PC Gamers complained because all their PC games were being "consolized", with less options, simplified gameplay, and controls designed for gamepads. However, console gamers weren't getting any proper console games, just consolized PC games. Everyone lost.
As such, where is the line drawn for RPG fans when it comes to how actiony a game can be before it is no longer an RPG? Depends on the genre. Turn-based RPGs and Action RPGs are entirely different things. I love both and can be in a mood for either, but the sheer lack of proper budgeted turn-based RPGs sucks and too many people think they're a relic of the past and see action combat as an "evolution" rather than "a complete genre change".
It's worth mentioning that SquareEnix have been insulting turn-based RPG fans for a while with their poor decisions. That crap "hold a button and win" combat of FF15? That was done because they literally didn't think RPG fans had the reaction times to play an action game. Then there's FF7 Remake which has a "classic" mode...except it doesn't make the game turn based, it makes the game play itself. Don't even get me started on convoluted disasters like Four Heroes of Light which is an insult to FF1 and inferior in every possible way.
That said, the one complaint you missed is the lack of party dynamics. Parties are important to JRPGs. Frequently I don't want to play as the "main" character, I wanna play as a side character and the ability to control multiple characters or switch between them lets me focus on the characters I like. FF16 doesn't let me do that. It's Clive or nothing, while many other action RPGs do let me switch characters.
That said I feel like we come from alternate dimensions. You mentioned liking the more mature presentation because you felt games were becoming more childish?! Cripes I wish. I'm sick of these sad dour games with brown and grey color pallets and a focus on "realism". I felt FF16's designs and world were painfully bland and too Western for my taste. Game looks like The Witcher but with pretty faces.
But getting back to the genre singularity, the other problem there is that, as you can see, it's also watering down character action games to make them more accessible to a wider audience. I'm still distraught by how Oneechanbara: Origins threw out all of the depth and moves of the older games to just become a garbage parry fest.
But at the same time I'm sadly seeing a lot of so-called "JRPG Fans" applauding the move to action combat...but at the same time detesting depth. Some of these people seriously seem like they just wanna walk down a straight line, mash the attack button, and watch cutscenes and it makes me sad.
I did appreciate the commentary on DMC1 though because I had a kind of similar thought. I enjoyed the combat but the stage design was terrible. There was no platforming, no fighting enemies in the stage, just a maze full of puzzles with the combat sectioned off to their own rooms. I honestly thought "Wait a second, Devil May Cry is just a bad action RPG! I'm going through a dungeon solving puzzles and going to separate combat screens but there's only one dungeon, only one character, and it's only single player! Tales of Eternia is like the same game but better!" which I know is a very weird thought. And actually that's what has me really frustrated as I love the Tales games but not only did all the good 2D ones not get a US release, but the last two entries in the series abandoned their distinctive side scrolling combat system for a generic dumbed down system very similar to FF16...and Star Ocean: The Divine Force...and Ys 8 & 9...and everything else.
That said, this video was interesting because I never knew that Character Action Game fans were suffering in a similar way JRPG fans are with their genre becoming increasingly niche and increasingly absorbed into the grey mush that is the genre singularity. Honestly? Outside of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and maybe 3, most JRPGs released these days fall so short of the ones from the PS2 era and earlier. The whole genre is a mess right now. I could go on for days but my thoughts are too jumbled. Good work but MAN is it clear you don't understand RPG fans! XD (Also, ATB is a terrible idea and a huge mistake)
I’m actually super interested to hear what you mean by 4WOL being a convoluted insult to FF1. I am not particularly attached to either game, you just have a stance I have not seen before.
Yes jrpgs fans became what they hated its ironic at this point
The action rpg combat that these jrpg use now is just bad without depth or anything special thats why its an issue
Id say there are a select few JRPGS that are still good. Not ps2 level but good nonetheless.
Being a fan of Jrpgs and character action these days is tough.
Year late, but peak comment. Thank you.
A good RPG is a slot machine that you can change the odds of. You leverage stats, synergize abilities,and optimize actions all to stack that slot machine so far in your favor. In the same way you would study a superplay or use savestates to increase the chances that your muscle memory will execute a good run, an RPG player gathers info from towns and executes actions in battle optimally to slow the use of resources over time in order to clear a level. The payout of the slot machine varies from game to game; some give out chunks of story while others give you more gameplay complexity and more types of slot machines. At it's worst it's just "number go big" which is what gets tacked on to most non-RPG and unfortunately to FF16. Numbers going up in a linear path is not gameplay. Manipulating and exploiting variables is.
The most "pure" gameplay for an RPG would be dungeon crawlers/blobbers like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Etrian Odyssey etc where the story is in the manual and the game is constant combat and dungeon exploration. Classic JRPGs like early Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Shin Megami Tensei have the best balance of light story/strong theming with large variations in party building.
Yes I get the feeling what you describe is what might be considered core rpg gameplay. Because I have a friend whose really into rpg and he ll destroy them all at high difficulty and will then tell me how he did it and recite massive stat trees and stuff ha. Basically the gameplay is about manipulation of stat variables and how they interact with each other, is what it sounds like
Sounds like Mario Party to me. Funny I found most of the guys worked on RPG’s before they worked on Mario Party.
@@TheElectricUnderground Basically that. Final Fantasy is sort of the Ikaruga of RPGs in that it's became the face of the genre despite not 100% following the essence of it. It's a very competent series (or was) but in the PS1 era started leading more towards story game due to being at the forefront of CGI across any medium, not just video games. 16 was created by MMO developers, but the combat was by the DMC designer hot off of DMC5. They don't mesh perfectly and the RPG mechanics (which are thin and very MMOish) shackle the combat to cooldowns and not being able to juggle 75% of the enemies in the game.
broken gameplay if you learn the mechanics? like how insane ff8 can get once you really learn it. linear progression drives me insane. the enemies scaling with me no matter what I do is an instant no.
@asmith1854 Final Fantasy also convinced most western gamers that buffs, debuffs and status effects don't matter, something Dragon Quest had figured out was wrong since III.
There have been so many RPGs that have interesting combat and bosses that sometimes gets lost on people from the perception that you play these games by grinding until your numbers are so high you can ignore all the mechanics. You'll even see it in old FAQs saying something along the lines of "be level 40 for this boss and you'll easily defeat it" when the battle was designed to be done at 20, utilizing interesting combinations of mechanics. Sure, sometimes I wanna relax by grinding in a game because I've already burnt my brain out trying to do something difficult in a game like beatmania, but there's a lot more interesting things going on in RPGs than some who've avoided the genre might realize.
Shin Megami Tensei changed my entire perception of RPGs, so did Tactics ogre. They can be absolutely fantastic.
@@voideyezz3234 I'm a huge SaGa fan which definitely shaped the way I view RPGs and how nail biting battles can be.
@@voideyezz3234 same,smt is all about tatical decisions and not grinding crap,i´m glad something like low level runs are very popular in the comunity,really highlights the versatility of such a deep combat system noctune and onwards have
@@Voxandra Not gonna lie. I honestly think the way Romancing SaGa handled non-linear exploration all the way back on the Super Famicom was far more interesting than most modern open-world games.
Healing magic on Scarmiglione in Final Fantasy IV comes to mind.
I found Stranger of Paradise to be a much better action RPG than XVI, especially since SoP doesn't waste your time with trivial stuff and isn't too cutscene heavy like XVI.
Bog says the same thing! He s convinced me to buy it so I ll give it a try soon :-) it s team ninja which are my fav devs ha so yeah they know how to make combat for sure. The key difference though, just for observation, is that stranger is a spin off game, and 16 is a mainline entry, so 16 is going to be a more widely played game I imagine
@@TheElectricUnderground If you're familiar with Nioh, SoP plays a lot like it but with FF elements.
Maybe XVI will be widely played, but I feel as though SoP is the one people are going to remember more, like it's gonna be a cult classic as some point in the future. XVI is more forgettable than XV to me, and that's saying something considering how that game was released.
SoP to me is the only good action-based FF game, at least the only one with actual good game design, none of the others did it for me.
To me SoP was sleeper game of the year. The first playthrough is kind of average, but once you progress to the second DLC it becomes one of the most fun action RPG games I have ever played.
@@TheElectricUnderground SoP is prequel to mainline FF 1, people keep calling it spin off but the existence of SoP is very importance to explain the mainline FF 1 universe
@@tonberrymasta people with no hands and creativity be like.
I played Elden Cringe and didn't find half the fun I had with SoP, I would have given the Goty to SoP before ER or GoWR is superior in enemy design, enemy performance, weapons, controls, characters, plot, story, mechanics, bosses, combat mechanics, music etc.
The story is great. I hate action games but i love final fantasy so I watched someone play it from start to finish. Isn't it amazing how you can just watch a game for free now? If this came out in early 2000's i would have wasted money
Ha that is really funny because that s my relationship with all the other final fantasy games. Like with 7 remake, I just watched cutscenes compilations :-D
@@TheElectricUndergroundYeah, and now that Nomura si going to turn Final Fantasy 7 in another Kingdom Hearts, i'm going to stick with the original
Great video, I watched during the premiere so I didn't watch the beginning parts (going through it now)
One thing that I think is worth noting just in case you didn't is that Yoshi P (the game's director) has been known to be an arcade fiend. He literally got Zangief nerfed in Street Fighter EX2 way back in the day by attending a loctest and crushing everyone. On top of that, he's the director of FFXIV MMO which has beat-em-up/shmup style linear dungeon design where you go trash mobs -> midboss -> trash mobs -> stage boss, and the Limit Break in XIV is functionally the same thing as the Dodonpachi hyper meter
no..he bodied everyone in sfex1...around the time of sfex2 he got to meet with arika and got a confirmation that he was the reason behind the huge zangief nerf in that series eheh
That is really awesome ha. Yeah as weird as it is I have a bit of a soft spot for the FF series just because you can tell it still retains a lot of Japanese style game design, which overlaps with arcade game design. Most rpg series I have absolutely no interest in playing or trying out in the slightest, except for FF (maybe because of it's awesome graphics and character designs?). So I'd love to play the series more and explore it more, but man battling my way through rpg game design is so hard due to my general impatience when it comes to wanting gameplay right away and general disinterest in video game stories.
GTA 5 is a bit odd example at the start, because it is meant to be a sandbox game. All the content is part of the integrity of it's design.
very interesting to see the perspective of someone knee-deep into a genre and compare it to the design philosophy of "mainstream Western designers". From all the game design videos/forums/discussions I have seen, a mechanic not directly being engaged with by a significant amount of players is automatically perceived as bad. And as you said, the solution proposed frequently involves making the design more restrictive and forcing the players to use said mechanic (this mass appeal progress at all cost mentality). I personally don't mind some games having restrictive designs but that philosophy can very often devolve gameplay into a glorified game of Simon Says and make mechanic utilization/progress much more inorganic when overused.
Again another awesome video and I look forward to the next one.
What a great comment duel! Yes I think there can be some smart uses of prescribed design, especially if you are trying to teach a player about how a mechanic should be used and in what context, but when you make it a permanent part of the design it gets extremely simplistic and uniform.
Spot on.
I'm one of those salty RPG fans. 🤝
Edit: I dont know how to answer your story vs gameplay question, but I will put forth Final Fantasy X and Dragon Quest XI(s) as the gold standard tier of turn-based RPGs. They have deep stories but also have compelling strategic battles, particularly in their optional content. This content brings an additional challenge for the combat-leaning fans, but leaves a mainline story completion within reach for more casual players. Not sure if this answers the question but it's all i can say!
no irony, salty rpg fans might be my fav type of fans of all time. Because you guys are suffering, but from your suffering you have gained rationality. Vs Nintendo or Bayo fans where they are just conditioned for unconditional praise of their games at all times.
I'm not primarily an RPG-player either, but I play some from time to time and I think dismissing non-action RPGs as relaxing entertainment with low gameplay density in general is just wrong. You should try Shin Megami Tensei IV or V. Those games will show you how turn based J-RPGs can prioritize gameplay mechanics over story and have a very tight gameplay-density. There are also a lot of western cRPGs like for example the Wizadry series or Darkest Dungeon with very dense and challenging gameplay.
ahem Etrian Oddysey ahem ahem
I’m a Final Fantasy fan since VII and went back and played them all, minus Lightning Returns. This game feels so far away from FF that I’m quite torn on how I feel about it. I love my RPGs, especially turn-based. Persona and Dragon Quest are some of my faves. I actually am wondering, what are your fave action games? Heard you say Nioh and Ninja Gaiden, but what is your take on Astral Chain? One of my all time faves, God Hand.
Oh easily my favorite action game is Ninja Gaiden 2, I think it is ahead of the genre still in a lot of ways, despite some issues like not locking areas to force combat and the damn UT spamming (which I just pretend doesn't exist ha). Following up NG2 though, I do think God Hand is fantastic (though I still need to get better at it) and specifically DMC3. I've been working on a big DMC3 video for the past year, but I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5 and I'm gonna have a whole vid on that ha. As an FF fan, I can only imagine how far away 16 is from the rest of the series ... I mean the game is showing up on my channel, and I don't play rpgs normally ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground oh my god. Love your channel and I’m so there with you. I still have yet to beat DMCV because it just didn’t click for me. DMC3 is one of my faves and Ninja Gaiden Black and 2 are high up there. Awesome. Can’t wait to see your vid on DMC3!
@@TheElectricUnderground "I think 3 is much better than DMC4 and 5." Finally, a fellow style switch hater. Ironically style switching actually limits the game design.
As an RPG player i really didnt like it.
Its way to compromised and doesnt serve neither side well.
I really wonder if you would have been this positive if you didnt have Bayo3 and Re4 to compare it to.
Hmmm I wouldn't call my review positive necessarily ha. It's actually a lot more neutral and that's really my final feelings on the game. I think the idea in itself it a lot more appealing than either bayo 3 or remake4 (moving away from rpg design, whereas those two are moving towards RPG design), but the question is if FF16 is successful in doing that, which I think i critique fairly. I am more open to the idea of FF16 though, a real time combat FF games, so that's probably why my tone is more playful than the other reviews.
Is an RPG becoming much more like a Character Action game a good thing if it results in a game that doesn't do either genre that great? (Or in this case, a game that is barely an RPG, yet still want to be one so badly that it holds back the "action")
That is truly the question david. Just like the reverse of Bayo 3, where a character action is becoming more like an RPG. It's a double edged sword and I don't think it can actually be easily answered, like in a game design sort of way. As a critic though, I am geared towards favoring character action style design over RPG design, especially since RPG design is much more prevalent and popular. So in my book yes I would like to see more RPG series shift towards character action and I absolutely would love to see FF go all the way with the idea, rather than have this sort of awkward middle area ha. Intellectually, it sounds nice for me to say that FF should stay pure to rpg because that's its legacy, but as a player I cannot deny that I am enjoying FF16 more than I did FF15 (the little I played of it) because of it's real time combat elements ha. So really it kind of comes down to a battle of design elements and which side you'd personally like to see prevail. There is no easy right or wrong I don't think. That being said FF16 could certainly just improve it's combat system by making it more balanced in terms of special attacks, I think that's a glaring issue.
@@TheElectricUnderground
Although... id say Bayo 3 made an inch towards RPG while FF took miles towards a character action game 😂
I'd like the Final Fantasy identity crisis to be over with though, so if they want to be more like an action game, id perfer if they commit to it rather than completely change the game again and probably put out another sucky one. They need to start iterating on a certain style if they want to make a game as good as FF6 or 7. Plus like you said, theres not enough action games out there lol
As for RPGs becoming more like character action. I think there is alot RPGs (and modern games in general) can learn from Character action, and arcade game design. But i would only like to see them make larger jumps in ways that make sense.
Ys and Kingdom Hearts are two IPs that I wouldn't be opposed to being more like (or outright) a character action game. I know Ys in particular is one where some people would like them get rid of party members and return to solely controlling Adol.
I'm a fan of both character action(spectacle fighters) & Final Fantasy, but Chocobo May Kweh(Final Fantasy XVI) while being a great game... the combat is just wrong for Final Fantasy in the form they chose. I was up for the DMC combat, but was hoping for more strategy than just waiting on cooldowns. I was on autopilot playing the game due to 20 years of DMC & wasn't challenged & barely was touched.
The combat needed more Final Fantasy elements in elemental weaknesses, buffs & debuffs along with a proper magic system. Having the DMC 5 combat director, while a good idea, they ignored stuff that could have made the game more challenging.
As a JRPG fan, we come into the genre for the story & world. Combat is there as a mental challenge in turn based & in action RPGs it's survival as an adventurer & both are there for a sense of growth in the characters, like going to the gym to get stronger. With western RPGs (which I am not that big a fan of) people go to them for the sense of freedom & inserting themselves into the world... & these ones are where character action combat would fit perfectly since WRPGs are about personalisation.
The biggest issue with modern games is that they aren't making games for older fans of franchises in their late 30's & older, but younger audiences who want time burners content over smaller & tighter experiences.
Oh yeah the difficulty is really an issue for this game, even on default. Because difficulty creates strategy in action combat by forcing players to respect frame data. But if you don't have enemies challenging you and making you consider each strike, it does end up feeling mindless. I wonder how likely it might be that square put in a mode with much more aggressive ai (way more than Ng+)
Honestly FF was a series hard carried by its presentation with very little to offer in terms of gameplay, FF became much less impressive and relevant during the 360/PS3 era as other console devs started catching up and budgets shot through the roof in general. I could never sit through more than a few hours of the mainline games but really enjoyed spinoffs like Tactics and Stranger of Paradise because the devs actually focused on making the basic gameplay loop engaging. So the somewhat poor reception of XVI among the hardcore fans only makes it look better to me.
The gameplay of FF SERIES was good it wasnt the best part but it was not bad for sure
Hey mark, really interesting video as always. Would like to know your view on Stranger of Paradise, considering your thoughts on XVI.
So boghog loves that game and convinced me to buy it, but I haven't played it yet ha. But I absolutely will in the near future
@@TheElectricUndergroundcan't wait to see your reaction / review of it!
lol classic RPG fans have been complaining about the actionization of the genre for over a decade, and I’d argue RPG fans have lost much much more than action fans. Every game is now a real time slashy slaughterfest. On the issue of RPG mechanics, one of the core fundamentals IMO is a narrativized party system, where the story unfolds through the episodic assemblage of playable characters who are tactically distinct, and who have distinct development arcs. The “role play” has to be plural, and there have to be meaningful choices in terms of which characters you develop and invest in. Having a decent level of discrete combat control over all characters in your battle party is also important. Stats plus progression is not a sufficient genre formula, and interactive cinematic cut scenes aren’t really part of the classic RPG storytelling formula.
I'm just gauging a sentiment based on several passing comments I've seen on this channel. But I'm glad I'm far from the only one these days that really really was not a fan of modern Zelda. I'm sure most people here probably aren't a fan of the series in general. But I grew up on them and love the bulk of the series to the point where I auto pilot most of them.
These last two games though?
I'm good, Nintendo. You can miss me with the padded, empty, "Make Your Own Fun (but actually don't because we have shitfuck loads of aggravatingly conflicting systems)" faux Ubisoft horseshit.
And that game was an infection too.
The fact that Sonic the goddamn Hedgehog is now Breath of the Wild is unreal to me and it really highlights your opening statements. Can't just be a damn platformer. Has to be FarCry now. Has to be Elder Scrolls now. We're solvin' block puzzles as the fastest thing alive and, for some goddamn reason, *BADLY* feigning Phantasy Star Online combat inbetween the RPG chores. All in a big boring world with no style or cohesion.
I hate stat leveling and unlocking moves in action games. Honestly drags the game down and honestly comes off a lazy way to balance the game so you’re not overpowered at the start.
damn right magic, agreed 100% dmc and bayo are hella guilty of this. NG2 is somewhat guilty of this as well, but less so as you do have access to your core moveset via the sword. Still, all character action games should begin with a NG+ file hot and ready by default. Then unlocking moves mode should be optional.
NG2 does the upgrade part the best. You upgrade your weapon one level and you get a crap ton of moves. Can you believe Gamingbrit wanted you to only unlock single moves? 😂😂😂😂
Based video as always
I wish FF16 was a full blow character action game but it's really not the case unfortunately, the depth really isn't there, no JRPG depth and no action game depth either.
But I like the idea.
Yes that's a great analysis. Except I don't think the issue with the combat system isn't necessarily depth, as it does have plenty you can do fundamentally (not as much as DMC or Bayo, but I think there's still room for a more limited moveset action game). But the massive issue comes with balance where the special attacks or summons, completely overtake and wipe out the fundimental gameplay leaving only a really shallow game of special move spamming. However, if the special moves were nerfed and rebalanced, then it think the game could start to have a much stronger feel in terms of combat. This is just a tricky conversation, especially for RPG players, because the issue isn't, oh there are not enough moves, the issue is, hey the moves are useless in the face of such OP summons. I guess it's a bit like the psychic pokemon of pokemon red, where they just were way too OP and could blast through all the other pokemon types without much issue.
As someone who has leaned towards RPGs and a lifelong player of Final Fantasy games, Stranger of Paradise and FF16 are easily now top in the series for me. I love the stories they presented but they really expanded my view on these character action style games and made me play more in the genre. I want to combo and cancel and stomp more!
Ah yes, one of the side-effects of the cancer known as AAA gaming. When you put everything in a game, you end up with nothing. Role playing games should be about role playing and choices that matter, being immersed in the world, and good storylines especially if it's a turn based JRPG, not being a generic action game with level ups and skill systems. A lot of RPG fans barely understand RPGs these days, which is annoying especially when you see some people act like Skyrim is a masterpiece when it's a generic open world action game with RPG systems attached.
This is getting almost as bad as the music industry where so many bands/artists started chasing the crossover hit and watered down their music so much that genres disappear for all the wrong reasons.
I still don't understand why Square Enix doesn't want to do a turn based Final Fantasy game again. That's what a lot of the FF fans really want, but SE does not want to do that. I'm not really interested in FF being an action game either TBH.
Watch them do it to mainline dragon quest just like they tried it with front mission evolved and FF16 lol.
@@voideyezz3234I don't think that would go over well with the Japanese audience, which is most of the DQ fanbase.
I don't agree with your take at all and find it wildly misguided. For comparison, it annoys me that I don't get tightly designed action-platformers much anymore because 90% of games in the platforming genre are metroidvanias. But I don't wish that metroidvania fans share my misery by not getting their games either. That is essentially your attitude here, but it misinterprets the situation as if fans of in-depth turn based RPGs are actually getting what they want, which is incredibly far from the case. Nearly every "RPG" has just been a shallow action game with RPG elements for a decade and a half now.
I hope you can detect I am being tongue and cheek with my presentation of my vid ha. I don't actually want rpg players to be frustrated, but it is funny to see the shoe on the other foot for once. Also someone should make a video about the over swarm of metroidvania in platformers these days, because it is getting out of hand. I dislike that trend perhaps more than the rpg trend, it's a close toss up. But in terms of RPG fans being hurt for games, I think that's swimming in the ocean and complaining about not having enough water. The gaming sphere is dominated by RPGs, and not just in terms of releases, but most game discussion revolves around RPGs and their style of design. I hear over and over that the art of games is that they are an "interactive" story telling medium ... which is an RPG concept. I don't view games or design from this angle at all. Is Tetris any less of a game, artistically, than FF6, because it doesn't tell a story? RPGs are so baked into gaming culture that I think fans forget just how common and prevalent they are.
@@TheElectricUnderground That is fair, and I overreacted. I just don't think it is the fault of the core RPG genre; I think it would have happened anyway if RPGs hadn't been the catalyst. Think back to FMV games and further back even. In which game is the story presented in a more cinematic and important manner, Ninja Gaiden or Final Fantasy (1)? Arguably the former. Not that this is a knock against it, Ninja Gaiden is a better game AND has a better story. I may have a niche view of things, but the core of the RPG genre is a resource management/puzzle game, not an interactive movie. And the niche appeal of that is extremely limited, hence why RPGs adopted the interactive movie angle before other genres. That is where I agree with you, the appeal to the mass market means a dilution of the genre. I just disagree that the RPG is inherently at fault here, it is just as much the victim. Anyway, love your videos even if I disagree some times.
I know this is a bit of a necro, given that the video is so old, but I personally think that the term "RPG" is very unproductive. And I say this as someone who is a massive fan of JRPGs and Dungeon Crawlerd RPGs, and has played hundreds of them.
In the past, you might have said that RPG was roughly analogous as a genre to the "genre" of Arcade games in that the descriptor is more of a statement on a game's format than its actual primary gameplay loop. After all, despite being both Arcade games, Streets of Rage and Radiant Silvergun share very little of a core gameplay loop. What they share is instead an attitude towards difficulty, and play-experience format, an overall length, the mechanic of score, etc. RPGs before the turn of the millennium and for a small bit afterwards in that all RPGs shared a longer length, a focus on numerical and strategic development over input skill, and an emphasis on immersion and/or storytelling.
But ever since RPG mechanics were exported to game design across genres, the term RPG has become too broad to be descriptive. You could say that RPGs are the genre of "number-go-up". But the amount skill matters in comparison to those numbers going up is incredibly variable. A game like Ys 1 only has 10 levels and you get to max halfway through the game. Something like SaGa actually *punishes* you for grinding by actively scaling up enemies as you fight battles, causing the entire game to become a race to out-scale the world's native difficulty. Then you have something like Disco Elysium, which has no levels, no combat, and just dialogue choices that modify but never truly improve your stats.
If I had to chose between story and gameplay as an RPG fan, I don't think I'd be able to chose one. Both? Frankly speaking, it is very difficult for a game to manage a 40+ hour runtime with actually 0 story, at very least as a pace-breaker. And the same can be said of gameplay. If a game is going to need an element, shouldn't that element be good? There are some gameplay-first RPG series I love, like Etrian Odyssey, but even then my favorite entries have been the ones that maintain their high gameplay quality while incorporating a well-written narrative. If I had to answer whether gameplay or story is driving the bus, I think that heavily depends on the goals of the individual game. In Dungeon Crawlers, mechanics are driving, and I do think the tactics of turn-based combat and the strategy of long-term party development are enough to justify this being the case. But even gameplay-first RPGs tend to be slow-burn experiences, and they don't jive with everyone.
RPGs are dungeon crawlers centered around resource management, stat development and tactical gameplay. The resource management is an underrated aspect of old-school RPGs, and it's the reason why the genre has been losing its touch ever since moving away from random battles. Random battles were an important test of your preparation and resource usage. If you didn't adequately prepare and utilize your resources effectively, you would exhaust your supply of magic and items and would get wiped out before reaching the end of the dungeon.
The narrative aspect of RPGs is tied to their roots in tabletop games, where dungeon masters would set the tone of the adventure and role-players would act out their characters. The story elements were meant to enhance the games by fleshing out the world you were immersing yourself in and creating a sense of progress across multiple play sessions.
Some RPGs even have a "meta" that shifts over the course of the game. A good example of this is Phantasy Star II. During the first half of the game, stat-based weapons are crucial to inflicting adequate damage on enemy mobs. Once you get to the second half of the game, however, weapons and attacks that ignore defense become critical since late game mobs have high defense and all weapons save for the main character's swords simply can't keep up.
We need more people like you sir 🙏
very underrated channel, the algorithm does not like bucking the trend
Modern games are an insult to gaming fans:(
absolutely my friend! also shout out to OG Raticate, one of my fav pokemon ha.
I've played a ton of great games. Not sure where y'all been. On Xbox maybe.
@@MikeRavia-xp5igwhat's your top 5 then?
Xcom!
@@miscalotastuff733 u rite
If you are mashing buttons in a Musou you are also doing it wrong. I mean you can probably win. But it will be very slow and very boring. Musou are not about life or death, you will live, you will kill. They are about completing objectives and controlling the tide of battle as the most badass stylish chad in the battlefield. Saying musou games are about mashing is like saying the goal of shmups is survival. Please dude, don't bash musou. Leave that to the normies who love the new god of bore. I mean you, can obviously dislike them but musou are one of the last genres that still focuses on gameplay first. It might be gameplay you don't like but it is gameplay first. And as i said before. They are about being the most efficient killing machine. There's never any doubt you are one. You just have to be the most efficient. High level musou plays like speedrunning mostly.
I really want to like musou games believe me ha, I think the concept is cool. But I really wish there was a lot more to the enemy design and moveset, I don't think the games are bad or anything, but they don't really give you much options other than repeating the same attacks. I think they do their own thing but shouldn't be put in the same genre as character action, which they often are
@@TheElectricUnderground You don't have to like musou and most of them ARE pretty trash. As all genre of games... Only some games in each genre are "brilliant". And off course they aren't in the same genre as character action AT ALL. I think they are more like a single player moba mixed with something like powerwash simulator. Whenever i play one (a good one) i'm constantly balancing completing objectives and "cleaning" the battlefield of officers to take their bases. Also any musou without bases, objectives and the tide of the batle is not a musou. Probably the most representative of that concept is Fate Extella Link. Which isn't even a Koei Tecmo game. Enemies can take back bases and they can defeat you by obtaining those bases themselves. And there are random events that demand your attetion so you have to decide between defending a zone or saving an ally or even deactivating some elemental effect that's causing trouble for you and your troops.
I am a big fan of JRPGs, and also Ninja Gaiden and other games covered in this channel, so I would like to share my view as an RPG fan. The biggest reason I play RPGs is the gameplay, without a doubt. If the game is not fun to play I won't grind throught hours of gameplay just to see some pieces of plot as a reward.
On the other hand the primary reason why I'm interested in JRPGs is also the more compeling story that these games tend to offer, and to be honest I would prefer a less RPGish game if the plot is weak. If the plot is weak I won't care about the world and characters, and because of that, cutscenes, exploration, and leveling progression will be a waste of my time, it will be in general a worse experience than alternatives without RPG elements.
But if I play RPGs for gameplay what do I want from them as a game? Well, I like the strategy side of gameplay in RPGs, I like to make smart decisions that gives me advantage in the limited control that the game systems offer, and being able of blast throught everything with sheer mechanical skills in combat is actually a bad thing for these games because on the tactical side it gets boring.
A great example of good design in my opinion is the SMT series. It is a series that consistently gives really good strategic combat, and has good enough writing to keep me invested. In SMT games you need to create a good party, and also you need to make smart decisions every turn in battle to mantain advantage and avoid death. That is when most RPGs shine in my opinion, the non actiony ones.
Now, about action RPGs, I think they shine when they are good action games, and nothing more. Yes, I think that they should be more compared to Ninja Gaiden and the like, even if they have RPGs elements. The simple reason is that action RPGs give you direct control of your character, and now your mechanical skill as a player WILL impact the gameplay and is important for progression. I do know that RPG mechanics can break action games, but this is the fight that action RPGs are buying so.... good luck I guess, or maybe try to make a pure action game.
The biggest example for action RPGs is Dark Souls, but I prefer Nioh so I will use that instead. Nioh is basically an action game with a lot of RPG elements, and even if you have level and equipments, with crafting and upgrades for good measure, you can still treat it as an action game. The reason is that, because you will usually play missions of about your level, most of your leveling in stats will be cancelled by your enemies levels. In such way, you can treat leveling systems as just an difficulty scaler, where the lower your level the harder the difficulty, but with good skills you can cut away grinding levels from the game.
That is my reason to give action RPGs an action game treatment, if the leveling can act as just an difficulty slider, the quality of the gameplay will mostly be decided by how fun is the action. Yes, in RPGs it is expected to have more customization, maybe party management and so on, but at the end of the day it still needs to be a good as an action game in my opinion, after all, you won't be able to cram into the high speed gameplay all of that strategic complexity of a turn/strategy RPG, so all you can lean on in this case is good action.
What am awesome and well written comment! By the sound of it, and based on other comments I read too, it seems like rpg players tend to view turn based combat, at least in some form, more natural because it makes it easier to blend together story elements and strategy elements, whereas with real time story doesn't matter since you still will need to swing your sword within the combat system, that makes sense. It would be super interesting if an rpg used something like fighting styles (like VF) as part of the strategy but that would be so complex to do on a fundamental level (so you d have to learn massive amounts of frame data), that no way could most players figure it out or be motivated to do so. Stats are easier to scale and program
I played FF7 through twice 25 years ago.. this new one looks pretty good, but unskippable cut scenes is such a pompous move by the developers. I'd rather play something else
Shin Megami Tensei has the right amount of gameplay density for RPGs for me. There are cool conversations about ideals but the gameplay is king
I've heard a lot of really cool stuff about the series, but have never played it personally. I do remember it having some kind of Fire Emblem crossover though, which sounds like perhaps it skews towards a tactical rpg audience?
@@TheElectricUnderground Majin Tensei and Devil Survivor are the only tactical RPG games in the franchise, but yeah they did cross over with Fire Emblem for some strange reason.
The main games are all JRPGs that prioritise combat and customisation (you fuse demons to inherit skills and stay on the level curve)
I still need to play the two Raidou Kuzunoha games on the PS2 because they are Action RPGs.
@@TheElectricUnderground Play SMT Nocturne or V, more so nocturne tho
@@TheElectricUnderground Even though Shin Megami Tensei is more of a typical turn based style game, you actually feel the tactical decisions during battle like you would during a tactics RPG. It's very good on the gameplay front.
I'd recommend Shin Megami Tensei V, the newest one. It's very light on the story and the story is ASS anyway so it's okay to skip it. It can feel like a purely gameplay focused RPG which might be what you're looking for
Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix is a character action game
Shin Megami Tensei gameplay > story
Tales of Series, especially the most recent Tales of Game probably has some of the best action combat. Ignoring the older games of course, combat is fluid and allows for long and complex combinations.
I am a fan of action games and JRPGs with fighters and JRPGs being my 2 favourite genres but I look for different things in each. If I play an action game gameplay is king, if you can also make a great story thats fantastic but I do not expect it and would rather they not waste time on making crap like awful story content we seem to get in games like SF, Tekken, DOA, MK etc these days just bring back the short character endings. With JRPGs its the opposite for me where the story is by far the most important thing and gameplay is not the focus.
My fears with FF16 were that it would fall somewhere in the middle and not be a great RPG or a great action game and playing the demo I was convinced not to buy it until it gets a deep sale. I also got heavy Bayonetta 3 vibes from it which was by far my least favourite Bayonetta game only FF16 looked way better but felt like it had even more lackluster mechanics and level design. It just was not a combat system that incentivised or demanded a level of mastery and I would just much rather be playing Ninja Gaiden, Nioh, Devil May Cry 1 and 3, Sekkiro, Bayonetta 1 and 2, Vanquish or numerous other action games.
I will get the game eventually but I wish they had found a way to make a more unique combat system that blended the genres sort of like a more involved form of FFVII remakes instead of just making a fundamentally sound but unimaginative action system. I do wish they had allowed Nier Automata the same level of polish this game received as I feel that game does a much better job of creating its own system even if it is rough around the edges and like 16 feels like the outside help they got to make the battle system while very talented just phoned it in rather than bringing their A game.
Story wise it is to early to tell for me with the demo but I am very sceptical in that regards with FF nowadays as I have not been satisfied with a FF story since X back in 2000 and that includes the story of FFXIV but from the demo it felt very FFXIV like in its structure which raised a lot of red flags for me on that front.
If it was £40 I likely would have tried it due to how much I loved FFIV-X but at £65 its going to have to be something that really impresses me and the demo did not do that except with the visual presentation which is the one area Square show they are among the best.
By the sound of your comment you made a super accurate read on ff16 ha. Yes around the middle it starts to struggle with balancing it s mechanics and gets in this nasty middle zone between op rpg summon combat but still trying to be real time as well. I think waiting for the game to go on sale is a wise move, especially since I think the combat needs some rebalancing, by that time hopefully the game will play better and be cheaper ha. Also $70 for a game is insane
26:06 it’s so nice to find a reviewer with the same priorities as me. This has been a great review
Man this game is a travesty to final fantasy brand no other improvements on other aspects of an actionRPG
Gotdammit
the surge 2 is underrated
This is actually something that has been on my mind for a few years now: rpg elements are poison to a game's combat system. I'd advocate for the removal of most rpg mechanics in general because they are almost never integrated in meaningful ways and usually serve as bloat, but most discussions I've had with hardcore Final Fantasy fans regarding this game usually devolve into them shrieking that there's not enough customization, spells, equipment, crafting options, and so on.
Balance is a delicate thing. When you provide the player with too many variables to consider, it becomes impossible to maintain a genuine challenge that keeps a player engaged with thoughtful combat. Instead, by grinding or procuring the best gear through sidequests and whatnot, you destroy any semblance of challenge the game offers. Even the beloved Dark Souls games suffer in terms of balancing because the rpg elements make the games as easy or hard as *you* (the player) wants, rather than how the developer wants. Sekiro was FromSoft's best attempt at creating a balanced game because it ditched the rpg clutter, and countless Dark Souls fans bemoaned that it was too hard. Doesn't take a genius to see why.
If a developer attempts to gate character growth or progression through completing particular parts of the game, as is the case with FF13's crystarium, then these rpg elements become so shallow and that they ought not exist at all. If there's no choice, why even have these mechanics in the first place? Chrono Cross is another example, where you cannot level up your stats unless you defeat a boss. Well why not run from every non-boss encounter if the only thing I'll get is money and materials that I don't care about? Unfortunately, FF16 follows in 13's footsteps and provides the player with all these superfluous rpg mechanics that function more as window-dressing than customization.
Here's the issue with the crafting system: it's pointless. When you have only one weapon type in the game, and there are no elemental affinities or attack properties attached to these swords, why even have a crafting system? A player is *always* going to buy a new sword when it becomes available, upgrade it twice (because that's the cap), and then repeat over and over throughout the game. What's the point? Why not just dispense with this mechanic entirely since there really isn't any customization when it comes to equipment; you're just going to equip whatever has the highest numbers. Vertical progression systems are the ultimate illusion of choice. Money and resources could serve as a hinderance towards upgrading your gear, but both flow like water in this game and are never an issue. You will always have more money and materials than you will ever need to keep yourself outfitted with the best gear at all times.
The skill tree, likewise, does not provide the player with any choices. You can reset upgrades at any time, for free, as often as you like. No decision you make bears any consequence. There's no build to work towards since you can always reset skills you don't like and allocate those points towards another skill. Why even provide the player with skill points at all? Why even upgrade skills? Just let me equip whichever eikon skills I want and call it a day.
The accessories don't add meaningful customization options either. Most are potion duration/potency buffs or damage/defense modifiers. More number bloat. I couldn't make out much difference between wicked wheel +10% damage and a flat +12 attack across the board as far as accessories go. The berserker ring is one of the worst accessories in the game. Not only does it force a repetitive dodge animation when you perform a precision dodge, it actually lowers your damage output. People tested the numbers and the follow-up combo from a berserker-boosted precision dodge results in 8 hits instead of 10, resulting in less damage. And this ring explicitly states in its description: "Temporarily increases attack proficiency with each precision dodge." Nice accessory; make your combat experience worse.
Elemental affinities don't exist in this game, and for good reason: you only have access to 3 eikons at any given time. Well, suppose you don't have Ramuh equipped, and you run across a boss weak to electricity. Are you supposed to pause the game, equip Ramuh, reset your skill points and reallocate, unpause and then fight the boss? Repeat for every boss? Or worse, provide a garbage radial menu in a real-time action game like Forspoken, Witcher 3, and Stranger of Paradise did? I've seen people clamor for status moves like poison and sleep. These sorts of options are viable in menu-driven combat like turn-based games, where you can take your time working out tactical decisions, but not for action games. Why do you want to turn a reflex-driven combat system into a rock-paper-scissors match where, if you don't bring the right spell or weapon type, you deal less damage and prolong the fight? The only thing that will happen if these features were implemented is a player will find himself pausing the action constantly to mess around in menus. It does not offer any of the purported depth these advocates claim it would offer.
Torgal feels tacked-on. He has two flavors of attack and a heal, and none of his abilities have a cooldown. What's to stop a player from spamming sic nonstop during every fight? Sure, you can get a precision sic that deals extra damage, but is it a meaningful amount of extra damage compared to hammering his sic attack without thought? No. He also has a launcher/downthrust that doesn't work against bosses/minibosses, so he's essentially just like the robot from Nier Automata in that you want to thoughtlessly spam his attacks throughout the entire game for free damage. He's next-to-pointless.
Another aspect of the game that has little impact is the leveling system, or lack thereof. When you level up you get a minor boost to every stat and that's it. No stat allocation, no learning new abilities, nothing. Equipment is not gated behind levels. Dungeons are not level-locked. Is there even a discernible difference in damage when you level up? As far as I could tell, the amount of damage I laid upon a boss while he was staggered remained consistent throughout the entire game. You can hit 50k damage two hours into the game, and hit for 50k against endgame bosses. By the end I was hitting for 120k during stagger, and then in NG+ - 20 levels later - I was still hitting for 120k damage.
Here's a design oversight: there are no eikon loadouts. Why can't I save a set of three eikons as one loadout, equipped with all these skills and whatnot to fight normal enemy mobs, and then save a second loadout that's tailored for bosses? Let me switch between the two in real time whenever I'm not in combat with a button press. You give me access to all these eikons and skills, yet I stick with a boss loadout at all times because pausing the action hurts the pacing of an action game.
I'd go into detail on how the pacing of the game is already abhorrent, with forced fetch quests as part of the main scenario between almost every major dungeon, but I wanted to stick to gameplay mechanics.
This game would be much better off casting aside its rpg vestiges. Focus on providing the player with meaningful choices in combat instead of offering this veneer of customization that amounts to nothing. It seems like the team was afraid to omit leveling and equipment for fear of alienating fans, but they realized that offering the same degree of freedom you'd find in something like FF7 would be a disaster in terms of balancing, so they instead compromised and wound up with shallow systems that cater to nobody. That's unfortunately what this game feels like: a compromised action game made for rpg fans, rather than for action-game fans. Except the rpg fans are upset that there's not enough rpg, and I'm disappointed that the rpg stuff feels like clutter. But hey, still better than Final Fantasy XV.
What an awesome comment my dude! So on the topic of RPG elements in action games, yes absolutely they cause a ton of issues with game balance. In fact I think games that we consider hallmark character action, like DMC3, still lean too heavily on rpg elements. The reason why they are such an issue is that they screw up the balance of replay ability because they create a catch 22. You can either 1: gain moves as you go through the levels, or 2: allow players to replay early levels with unlocked abilities. And if you allow them to replay levels with unlocked abilities, then those early levels need to be re-balanced with the abilities in mind. This does happen with NG+ modes, but then the question because, ok but why did you force the player to play through this whole massive campaign without the proper move set, only to unlock the true version of the game much later on? The real solution to this problem would be to have NG+ available from the start as an option, but that cuts across the whole progression design of RPG, so it's an ugly catch 22 where neither the rpg or the character action can fully work together.
great comment.
it is actually impressive how this compromised nature carries on in the story as well.
they want you to care about some family plot, betrayal and revenge in one breath but then you also get to kill gods in the other.
eikons are nukes that nations deploy but also 1 guy can hold 6 of them at a time. like wtf !? if there was a guy that could even hold 2! of them it would cause all nations to go to war with each other for a chance of capturing him. so much of this game lacks self awareness on so many levels but it is a good time for its release. the average consumer is getting sick of Ubislop and is very mad about unfinished games. as you say, it is still better than FF 15, thats undeniable.
Mark, hire this man. ^^^
Uh dude, last I checked, an action RPG is still very much an RPG (see also; the Tales series, Seiken Densetsu, Nier/Nier Automata, etc).
I agree with you on Nier but not the tales series or the Mana series. You can feel the difference very heavily going from Bayonetta to the new tales of games and especially the old ones. Your attacks are very repetitive and very delayed at first and you have encounters instead of free form combat. Action RPG =\= Action game
Yes but this game is moving even further way from the "action rpg" style design. So the natural question I bring up in the vid, that I think is interesting to discuss, is how far can an RPG game move away from traditional RPG elements before it starts to alienate that fanbase? At this time I think no one actually knows ha, myself included.
RPG gameplay is character progression, i.e., "leveling up" and acquiring new abilities and equipment. That's the only consistent gameplay feature I see in every RPG. Most RPG's take the form of a "coming-of-age"-style power fantasy of character progression as the primary selling point.
Of course, as said in the video, the "RPG-ification" of video games means that pretty much everything has "leveling up" mechanics nowadays.
Also, I would say that story (including exploring and making your own adventure) often takes priority over moment-by-moment core gameplay in RPG's. That's why RPG's tend to be more casual, slower-paced, and with such an inconsistent variety of different types of gameplay implemented in a highly-accessible way. It's why RPG's are mostly single player or co-op because the player-vs-player RPG gameplay is mostly a contest of who put more time/energy into progressing their character which is boring. Plenty of RPG franchises like Final Fantasy will significantly overhaul their core gameplay mechanics with none of it being too sacred to touch. It's also why the top RPG's like Baldur's Gate 3 tend to get praised for their story elements and less for their moment-by-moment core gameplay mechanics.
If a game prioritizes moment-by-moment core gameplay, it generally has some additional gameplay-based genre modifier (i.e., Turn-Based Tactics RPG or Action RPG). As an example, the Fire Emblem games are labeled Tactical RPG, and it's debated whether the priority is on the Tactical or the RPG side.
P.S.
I'm totally fine with RPG's fully committing to action game mechanics. Nothing wrong with a game having an awesome story (with every cutscene being optionally skippable, why not), engaging action combat mechanics, and a detailed progression system. It's a difficult balancing act, and something usually falls through the cracks, but a big franchise like Final Fantasy would have the necessary resources to make a legitimate attempt.
I am going to ruffle some feathers, but the truth is the truth. Gather around the camp fire kids, it's time for a history lesson. Gary Gygax fundamentally created D&D with roots to Wargaming which is a pure combat system played all the way by the Aristocrats and Elites of the Prussian Empire. Original D&D (OD&D) was somewhat of a simulation that was meant test individual skills which are logic, deduction, agency and volition. In it's original state it was always meant to be a dungeon crawler, the story portion isn't what a traditional story was supposed to be, but the active actions that you took would inevitable lead to a story at the end of a play session. This is what free form stories are like instead of a narrative that has already been concocted for you ala what we call now theme park rides. D&D after 3.0 and some even argue 3.0 itself, is not considered an RPGs, since it does not possess challenge or any test of skills of the attributes I've listed. Also, Square Enix has been wanting to make real time combat ever since Advent Children.
yeah I get the feeling that rpgs as they are considered today, are sort of a middle ground away from even the fundamental rpg game mechanics, which is a really interesting idea to consider ha, since the genre has become so heavily associated with storytelling
I strongly agree with this take in regards to RPG being hailed of the most highly rated games game's because "freedom" they are the reason as to why the haming industry feels stale. This is why Elden Ring got so many praises for being "a different type of RPG." We need more variety popular franchise in games for sure. FF16 is amazing in my opinion.
Ff16 is dmc but i dont blame yoshi p hes the goat music on point combat on point story ok
People who say ff16 is mid clearly just suck at games cauze they use the auto button clear gear no skill just ass 😔
yeah the tricky part of the game's combat system is that is does have depth and genuinely flexible moveset, but I think an issue is that difficulty of the game is too low, so it's not forcing players to engage in the combat more deeply.
@@TheElectricUnderground i mean i understand it but final fantasy never was meant to be hard
Yoshi P invented Dante Must Die i mean a final fantasy with a dante must die difficulty would be slick maybe with a update we get a harder difficulty for ng +
People Play Games like dark souls to ng+10 or so i can see people play ff16 ng+3 with new stuff like in dark souls like new spells and weapons from ng+4 or so