How does the Devialet Phantom work?
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2018
- The luxury brand Devialet is a French company making boutique stereo equipment. Their $3,000 Bluetooth speaker pair has everyone talking and Paul explains how it works. Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
I plan a few surprises for early adopters, so go to www.paulmcgowan.com and add your name to the list of interested readers. There's an entire gallery of never before seen photos too. - Наука та технологія
It's easy to see why the "audiophile" community doesn't like Phantom. It gits rid of all the Guru advised component matching, cable tinkering, tube swapping, power cable antics of "high end" audio for a reference quality all in one mini system. Look, I've spent entire days swapping cables around too, but Phantom has the footprint of a toaster and sounds better than most systems in the 20-30K range. I should know, I have two systems in that range and basically live in an audio museum with 30+ complete systems and a stuffed storage of extras. I do have verifiable good hearing, as I was a hearing test bunny for 3 years in college. It was my job to sit in an anechoic chamber doing absolute phase and buried sound experiments. It was the perfect job for me and the chamber was very cool. I play several instruments and love live unamplified music. I have friends that also buy and sell high end, so I have heard basically everything out there, even rare items. I'm at a loss as to why anyone wouldn't be completely nuts over Phantom. Maybe they're better audio snobs than critical listeners.
I agree, people are basically set in their old ways, pissed off that something smaller, cheaper, newer has come along and is better than most systems like you say at 10x the price.
I cant wait to get a 2nd gold so I have stereo sound! I'm blown away each time I listen to any genre of music.
@@davyhoogy
If it's so great (I haven't heard it myself) why is their website full of bogus specifications? I don't trust companies that spew out fake ratings, sorry. Besides that, it's ugly as hell and I highly doubt it's built to last.
I have had a good listening session with these and they don't resolve details anywhere near as well as my Meridians and I walked in expecting to spend money.
The bass however is incredible given the size of the, If they redesigned these as a single or perhaps dual sub with two satellites incorporating mid and high drivers, they would be on to something.
I tested these with some Dave Brubeck, London Grammar, Daft Punk, Dire Straits and a range of other go to tracks that I know really well but they didn't disappear in the way the 8K's did.
Take 'Give life back to music'' as an example, the dynamics were there but the ability to 'see' the level changes during the first few bars and throughout was missing.
I am also anti cable snobbery or anything of the sort. I merely appreciate a product that delivers as close to what a recording engineer heard in the studio and gets me close to the recording.
@@TrentBurrows hey, i might be late to comment this but where did you listen to the speakers? normal devialet retail stores don't have proper room treatment like hifi stores do :)
@@abielpangga6314 Indeed, it was inside what was effectively a big glass room on the concourse of the station that you can catch Eurostar from.
I have a Devialet Phantom II in my tiny apartment. It transformed my life, and my neighbour's life. It is a phenomenal piece of equipment. Phenonenal.
I'd be curious to see Devialet try their hands at making subwoofers seeing how the Phantom's woofers get so much praise.
Try imaging them making club speakers. By just doubling or tripling the volume of the speaker, focusing on integrating more bass range with this added volume, and it could be incredible, wall shaking.
Or try imagine a phantom the size of a stack array, like the ones of Martin audio, funktion one etc. Would be fucking amazing ahah
I love the way when you explained hw things works in the engineering segments especially how things works in a amplifiers, speakers, variations of amplifiers class and all. I wish that I had been exposed to the way of explaining sooner and it might take me on a different paths in life. I realised that that I discovers how things works from the wrong channel or person, hence makes me stuck me somewhere. Bravo, if I am a student now, you would be my most favaurite lecturer ever.
Devialet makes big sound out of a small size speaker by using special bass woofers that can move more air by a longer excursion than normal woofers with the same diameter. However, as Paul hints, that means a lot of power is needed to compensate for the much bigger pressure from a smaller air volume inside, as it’s a closed speaker. A closed high power woofer is able to most precisely generate a punchy firm bass compared to anything this size trying to do the same with a radiator or bass port. It’s a well engineered product. Is it audiophile? Perhaps not.
I'd rather take a modern Servo system like the PirateLogic Little/One, or the soon to be finished Grownup, both to which I have listened.
i think they are rather expensive and the claims are overblown - but the same is for most 'high end'. I've heard them sound great with acoustic jazz in a local dealer - it turned out that I couldn't even stomach paying for his cheapest interconnects. Whether you'd be better with a Kii Three or similar is moot. I think discussion of BASH tech is irrelevant - rather its an indication of DSP and multiple amps directly connected to drivers, and what you can do with that - whether its the mother of all Linkwitz transforms or managing the side and back distribution as Kii do. Its a world away from the old multi-driver analogue setup - to do the same trickery you would have thousands of dollars of crossover components, a major efficiency problem, and a big problem venting heat from the enclosure.
ThinkingBetter don't think there's anything special about the drivers they work in a push-pull configuration, probably use car woofers do you know who makes the drivers.
John sweda No, I should find out who makes them. Not exactly ordinary drivers. ua-cam.com/video/N24vaTER10k/v-deo.html
sounds like you could use the design for a good compact subwoofer
Dutch and french standard mains sockets do 230V 16A That's almost 3700 real Watts.
Yes. In the old world we are not afraid of the electricity.
Still not 4500 watts and you never want to even get close to Max amps available on the circuit.
I have heard the Devialet speakers and Paul's description of them is spot on. A little thin in the midrange but with wicked bass.
Paul: “ it’s nothing really that trick, it’s been around for a long time. I’m sure they’ve come up with some fancy schmancy blah blah blah“
Devialet has OVER 160 registered patents! Paul is a shyster of the highest order.
Thanks for bringing these speakers up as they've kind of blown up on the internet and seems to create heated debates between "tech people" and "audio people". I still don't grasp how they really work but at least I'm starting to understand what they're doing.
Very interesting presentation, and excellent scientific popularization. Thank you.
I actually own one of Pauls products a headphone amp. And I've owned his friend Arnie's speakers Infinity Delta Gamma IRS as well as Genesis 300 great speakers. I'm not familiar with any high powered PS Audio intergrated amplifiers. My room is 1560 square feet so I'm building a much smaller 2 channel system and I appreciate his opinions on products including his own.
love the IBM workbench
I do like you. Quite hard to understand information, yet really easy on the ears
I bought a rebadged Sunfire sub, one of the small cubes, rebadged as a B&W, about 18 years ago, still have it. It had a "bash" 600w plate amp, emphasise the word "had", its
now powered by a plate amp salvaged from an old Velodyne,is that the same thing?
are they using a triac in the class D amplifier to control current flow to the class A and B amplifier. I'm assuming they would have a feedback circuit from the class A to control the triac is this the way It works.
I m always amazed by that speaker is that speaker make more deep bass then 12 inch bass tube
Undecided between Parasound Hint 6 and Anthem STR what's your opinion on these intergrated amplifiers ?
What Canadian company is Paul eluding to regarding BASH? ...Bryston, Axiom, Anthem, someone else???
I'm curious how these speakers work acoustically. How do they play so low with such a small enclose? With a very stiff construction, with very stiff woofer cones are they able to physically force the woofer cones to move like most ordinary woofer cones would move in an infinite baffle setup? Compressing the air inside the enclosure as if it isn't even there? Are the cones very heavy?
They also do have an optical input. So not strictly a bluetooth speaker, in all fairness.
(Edit) Ah yes, and wifi too. So streaming 24/192 is possible.
Audiophile? Maybe not. Enjoyable? Hell yes.
How do you stream via Wifi and Ethernet from a PC?
Luvdac Ever seen/heard 2 of these in real life right in front of you playing MQA off Tidal?
These will kick ass with the BEST of any of the "audiophile" systems out there...
Don't be fooled by the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi.
PMPO - Peak Music Power Output. I am sure that is what they use when specifying their output power. I am pretty certain it is not RMS.
that was my suspicion also
your right! :))
4k5 watts peak is still around 3k2 watts RMS. Or do you mean Purely Mythical Power Output?
I'd want to see one of these with 6 devialet subwoofers with 10 small 1.5 inch to 2 inch neodymium liquid cooled tweeters
Have a look at Devialet's other product. The Devialet Expert amplification range. They're true world class audiophile amplifiers which use the same technology as Phantom, although obviously not as an all in one unit.
And what's divialet rated that at 500000 watts lmfao. Fvck divialet
Paul what do know about BYOB amplifier. I'd like to see you explain that one please.
I hadn't heard of this but wow. That takes a lot of cajones to charge 3,000 Euros for a 10 watt amplifier that needs a battery. Well, if he can get anyone to buy it, that's pretty remarkable.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Exactly! carry on Paul KUTGW and thanks for responding.
Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessey owns or is closely associated with several high-end brands (including Dior perfumes). Its products are known as much for their fashionista/conspicuous consumption-appeal as for their actual qualitative excellence. While not all of their products appeal to everyone's taste, they do adhere to fairly high standards of production.
How does this design differ from Bob Carver and his tracking down converter?
Winner!
Devialet reminds me of the Bang & Olufsen of the 70's and 80's. Good stuff that's really cool looking and even behaving, even if the performance isn't exactly "high-end." It's good for us, all products and new ideas are great for us as audio tech nerds. :)
I've never seen Bash used anywhere but LF applications.
"I've never seen Bash used anywhere but LF applications."
I use Bash all the time. I know there are some who prefer Korn for example, but I'm not one of them.
I'm with Paul on this, the Develiet Phantoms sound great for what they are. Probably the best "Sonos type" speaker system available but they are not HiFi!
mines10inches 2 together can be hooked up as HiFi.
What is in your opinion
@@Mabeylater293 Hifi components. Try a Devialet amp on some decent speakers, correctly set up for the room and you will hear the difference.
@@mines10inches ok. I guess that’s a pretty high complement for the phantom golds because from what I’ve read, their stand alone amps are on another level. Very well respected pieces of engineering
Hi-Fi is pretty much overrated these days. The phantom is fun to listen to unlike 'real' Hi-Fi
Devialet's white papers on their amplification technology seem to disagree with the described BASH-like, class D-driven varying rails supplying an analog amplifier: www.dynamicaudio.jp/file/110125/201101DevialetWhitePaper.pdf or images.computeraudiophile.com/graphics/2014/1216/Devialet-PHANTOM-White%20Paper.pdf
ADH is described and understood as analog and "digital" amps in parallel. Not in series neither via their supply, nor along the signal chain.
If you're looking for reference, it's rather been compared to QUAD's current damping when introduced, but with a hybrid combination. Whatever the result, I guess quite different from PS Audio's amps in any case.
Thank you for the link to the white paper. Very interesting.
If the simple explanation of Devialet itself is correct it is more a kind of 'current dumping amplifier' with a class D amp as the current dumper in parallel with a class A amp and not so much a class G variant.
Paul, best sounding? Take a look at DiamondBoxx
Hmm.. I have a small Diamondboxx and the Big Thodio. I like the Thodio better, but do love my Dboxx as well... Phantom easily outclasses any portable.
sounds like hitachi used to do with there dyna harmony amps
FYI in Europe or at least where I live we have 230v at 16A so we should at least get around 3.5kw out of the wall, I think still not 4.5 but a lot closer at least. we also have 400v but thats normaly reserved for things like stoves and such
I think the way they're doing it is by redefining continuous output to mean just a longer duration than that used to measure peak output. The way some amps are made today they would never stand up to a continuous sine wave of indefinite duration at rated output. Their point is with music there is no need for it.
It's a peak power and not RMS
So it should be no problem
It is peak power indeed. Pro audio brands like L-Acoustics have 12KW amplifiers that work on a 230v@16A outlet. Their amps will pull 1/8th of the max RMS power from the wall at normal use (limiters barely used) and 1/3rd of the power at heavy use (limiters working hard). Phantom is more at around 1500W RMS, so that's an even lower consumption, so wall power won't be an issue.
Here is a quote : "Into each Silver Phantom Devialet packs eight discrete monaural amplifiers, these are then bridged to function as four mono amps: one per driver. Each amp is claimed to produce 750W of peak power, for a total of 3000W. In terms of continuous power, the usual 4- and 8-ohm specs don’t really apply, since the drivers used are custom units with a DC resistance of about 1 ohm. That said, Devialet’s estimate of RMS power is roughly 375W into 1 ohm per bridged amplifier circuit, or about 1500W per speaker."
@@speakertoni2680
4k5 watts peak are 3k2 watts RMS. No way. It's PMPO (Purely Mythical Power Output)
WESTEL Audio why are 4500 watts peak 3200 watts of RMS?
What if it’s just 4500w at 10%+ distortion
I cannot find info as to LVMH owning any part of Divialet in any capacity, not sure where Paul got that info from, but I may be wrong. LVMH stands for Louis Vuitton (high fashion clothes and leather goods [luggage, purses] Christian Dior, a bit of Hermes, Sephora Makeup and Perfume stores, Moet (Champagne), Hennessey (Cognac). Here's a more complete list:
SubsidiariesEdit
A partial list including some of LVMH's best-known brands and subsidiaries:[15][19]
Christian Dior SE
Conglomerates owned - Christian Dior
Wines and Spirits
Ardbeg
Belvedere
Bodega Numanthia
Cape Mentelle
Chandon
Château Cheval Blanc
Château d'Yquem
Cloudy Bay
Dom Pérignon
Glenmorangie
Hennessy
Krug
Mercier
Moët & Chandon
Newton Vineyard
Ruinart
Terrazas de los Andes
Veuve Clicquot
Volcan de mi tierra
Wenjun
Selective Retailing
DFS
Le Bon Marché
La Grande Epicerie
Sephora
Starboard Cruise Services
Fashion & Leather Goods
Berluti
Céline
Charles & Keith
Dior
Emilio Pucci
Fendi
Givenchy
House of Bijan
Kenzo
Loewe
Loro Piana
Louis Vuitton
Marc Jacobs
Moynat
Nicholas Kirkwood
Rimowa
Thomas Pink
Watches & Jewelry
Bulgari
Chaumet
FRED
Hublot
TAG Heuer
Zenith
Perfumes & Cosmetics
Acqua di Parma
Benefit Cosmetics
Fresh (cosmetics & fragrances)
Givenchy Parfums
Guerlain
Kenzo Parfums
Make Up For Ever
Parfums Christian Dior
Perfumes Loewe
Maison Francis Kurkdjian
Fenty Beauty by Rihanna
Marc Jacobs Beauty
Kat Von D Beauty
Other Activities
Cheval Blanc (hotels)
Caffè-Pasticceria Cova
Feadship
Les Echos
LVMH does not own any part of Devialet. Bernard Arnault is a shareholder, but as an an individual (and in no way a majority shareholder).
I was out as soon as he said "bluetooth speaker."
It has Bluetooth yes, but people mostly use them using Optical SPDIF or AirPlay (which isn't that bad).
I heard then in a proper setting in a good high end store. Did not impres me. Mid and high very thin. Poor imaging. But they do go loud. The store manager was very honest: I do not sel them to audiophiles. I sell them to people who want something cool and fashionable. This is from a store that sels psaudio harbeth gia etc.
> Poor imaging
It's mono speaker (or did they have two?)
Waar heb je 'm geluisterd?
They did have two connected through a streamer. So not via bluetooth but through the dedicated unit. Looked awesome though.
Waar heb je ze beluisterd?
mikokuijn I understand your question perfectly. But there is a reason I wil not give you the answer. If I wil tel you which shop it is there supplier, they also sell their integrated amps, wil probably not like hearing about them making such a statement. Not good for relationships. Also it wil not give extra information on the actual speakers. Which I thought was not worth the money, did not sound good, the bass was disconnected from the overal sound. Listening to some
Voices singing, organ music, jazz and orchestral music it sounded disconnected. Electronic music plays loud and cool.
The store is in the top five of audiophile shops in the Netherlands gave me some good coffee and thus I feel obliged to be kind to them and be consientious about it.
If it's not in Amsterdam or its 15 km radius, I wouldn't bother anyway for the time being.
If your musical taste involves speakers that can’t reproduce deep powerful bass, you’re missing out.
Why on earth would a French guy ask someone in Boulder Colorado how a French amplifier works?
A genuine viewer question I’m sure. 😂
Is that mr wizard
I gave up after 3.47 as he found it very difficult to get to the point of the video. Sorry about that.
Their bass alone puts these speakers near the top.
the wattage is totally lied
there's a vid showing 2 reactor 600 pull no more than 300w from wall
I bought the gold, didn't like it, sent it back. Has connection issues. Sound on low end was great for club music, on rock it was nothing great at all.
I tried to get road tax and was sent a speaker?
Kick Booty ??
Yup, just like the bass from a pipe organ, it kicks booty. And I read one review that said the devialet phantom gold reproduced the pipe organ pedal lows better than any speaker he’s tested.
The Devialet Phantoms do sound decent for a 2.0 system, very much comparable to other 2.0 active systems on market. At least that's what I felt after listening to them.
I always call my Devialet phantom a 1.2 System :D
4500 peak... not constant
So it's useless to state peak power nanosecond numbers.
After watching Pauls excellent video you need to watch this:
ua-cam.com/video/Ni9ccFfnOJg/v-deo.html
Now after seeing what's inside would you pay $3000 for this thing?
I think this is much more fun and a better deal: www.amazon.com/Brookstone-Floating-Waterproof-Bluetooth-Speaker/dp/B01BQK2ZEQ
Fregggging kids!
If LVMH owns it, I will avoid it.
Beats headphones equivalent in a speakers world.
Temp 777 You're kidding right? 🤣🤣 Beats... 😆😆
Not very well explained really. Just the fact that BASH amps are the combo of AB and class D and the devialet claims to be an class A and class D. Just saying those facts it may be the same in the end but the devialet a are working until some wattage 50watts in pure class A etc. Not saying that what you've said it wrong but not very factual. You have to kinda prefer you own brand right. But very cool technology and quite recognized in the adiophile world.
Class a is class a, class ab is class ab, class d is class d, and BASH is BASH, all of which are "quite recognized" by any audiophile, and have been for years, and all of which you can easily study on your own ... which was Paul's point ... that you missed I guess.
@Dave Micolichek no, class G topology is a modification of Class AB and not class A.
Why would an audiophile give a flying fork about it, let alone 'quite recognized'? It suggests predisposition based on amp topology. Surely the issue is whether an amplifier should be 'a straight wire with gain' and whether that apples well enough for a given design to voltage, current - and stands up to back-emf from inductive loads? Who cares how? (And why would Paul say that the power gain stage of his Class D is so neutral and that he uses input stage to 'tune' the sound? How is that tuning 'straight wire with gain'???)
Bluetooth.... 🤦
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Sorry, but anybody who tries to speak of bluetooth and fidelity in the same sentence without a negative determiner has sacrificed 100% of their credibility.
FYI - your sentence speaks about bluetooth and fidelity with no negative determiner, rather, an indefinite article, so you just sacrificed 100% of your credibility. Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.
Peter S Yes, Bluetooth isn’t too great but don’t forget Bluetooth audio streaming (A2DP) exist with different modes of compression. Before you had only SBC but now you have the better AptX HD, AAC and LDAC codecs. But if you play streaming compressed music you are likely listening to music that has been compressed and uncompressed at least two times. Not great.
BOTTOM LINE: You cannot pass data through a CODEC and retain high fidelity. It's a mutually exclusive situation. Additionally, using serial CODECs of different types tends to multiply the CODEC errors, rather than add them. I don't want my music going through a CODEC. Some people postulate about these things but I've been in audio product development working with DSP since 1989, starting on the Motorola DSP56001. I've actually written a couple of CODECs so it's very hard to sway me without 100% mathematically air tight proveable facts. In my informed and not so humble opinion, bluetooth will always = crap utility audio. It's wonderful for public address systems but not beyond.
So Pete, who do you think is arguing BT is amazeballs such that you're inclined to resume stroke yourself? Paul said he doesn't like the sound of this speaker and then went on to, you know, actually focus his response on the question (which was not about bluetooth). Is your thinking, "yeah but even though the question and topic are about the amp, let's forget all of that and wheel out Pete's audiophile hobby horse, nasty ole bluetooth, cause this whole internet should be about Pete!"
Peter S Of course you can pass data through a codec and retain high fidelity. Ever heard of FLAC, ALAC, WacPack, TAK, Monkey’s, WMAL, OptimFrog or TTA? On your PC you’ve probably used ZIP or RAR for file compression. Problem with lossless compression is that you don’t reduce the data amount as much as lossy compression but more than 50% is possible without any loss.
"only get 1500w out of the wall"
you just lost my respect sir... that's 1500w @ 120/240v NOT what your stepping down to the 12v in an amp, come on, you know this... it's basic Ohms law man... =/
120v typical house socket in the US = 2,000 watts at NEC rated 80% load on the breaker out of the 2,400 @ 20a max short term.
SO via ohms law120v = 2,000w (rounded from 1920 for ease of math, it's not going to make a damn either way in the grand scheme of things)
120v = 2,000w
60v = 4,000w
30v = 8,000w
15v = 16,000w
now is that correct or no? obviously you have to factor amplifier efficiency, heat, speaker impedance etc etc... real world numbers are probably going to limit you to about 8,000w out of your 120v plug when stepped down to 12v DC
Yes, some of what you write is incorrect. Let's start at the beginning. If you have a 15 amp breaker and 120 volts then the simple formula amps times volts gives you a maximum of 1800 watts. Indeed, short term is greater because the circuit breaker has yet to shut off. But watts is a measure of work and you cannot get more work out of a maximum of 1800 watts with a lower voltage.
I think you may be confusing amps and watts. So, when the voltage goes down, the amperage needed to perform work (wattage) goes up. For example, 12v at 150 amps is 1800 watts.
in your examples you're somehow equating this incorrectly. Wattage, again, is a unit of power (or work). There's a finite amount of work that can be gotten out of an 1800 watt source-1800 watts.
You are very confused. Lmfao. So the lower the voltage the more power that you get?lmfao. No, let me correct you. the lower the voltage means the more amps needed to get the same work(watts) done. And you can only draw so many amps. It's like comparing a big V8 engine making power barely breaking a sweat vs a small 2cyl engine needing 30psi of boost and nitrous to make same power. The small engine is maxed to an inch of it's life.
What power supply will convert 120v to 12v at 660amps? 8000 watts at 12v is 660amps . Lmfao just try and find a 660 amp 120v- 12v dc transformer lmfao.