1982 - Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, Gene Wolfe on science fiction
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Isaac Asimov, Harlan Ellison, and Gene Wolfe discuss science-fiction writing with Studs Terkel and Calvin Trillin on the Alpha Repertory Television Service (ARTS), the predecessor of today's A&E (Arts and Entertainment Network). The program was called "Nightcap: Conversations on the Arts and Letters." All copyrights in the original material are acknowledged. This video is posted for purposes of historical documentation and research, not for commercial purposes. No infringement is intended, but only fair use.
Any defects in audio quality are the side effect of filtering out a loud tape hiss.
Ellison is very restrained in this piece. Much more than usual. You can tell he is in the company of men he respects.
Yeah, I've met him in person, back in the 70s, and he was usually anything but subdued. More like a hyperactive kid.
This is him subdued? Yikes.
@@Undone545 oh he's VERY subdued here. Look around and try to find where he talks about picking a fist fight with Frank Sinatra & his goons.
@@Undone545 oh yeah. I had personal interaction with him, which makes this look like a 19th century intellectual discussion in a cafe.
@@Undone545 yeah man, he got thrown out of university for punching an academic who criticised his writing
The fact that Harlan didn't knife anyone on set shows he respected these guys.
lol
This was recorded just a half hour after Harlan assaulted his publisher, so he got his aggression out of his system this point.
Now you’re making me think about a hypothetical interview between Ellison and Klaus Kinski and man, would that be wild!
@@aaronstark5060 Yikes!!! No one would be alive after!
@@aaronstark5060 also, I just corrected a weird spelling error .
Why the hell can't "SyFy" have a simple show like this? A nightly, late night talk show about the f'ing BOOKS?
Because these are intelligent, thoughtful, literate, well-read older men (Who write books!) that don't look like models, or at the other end of the spectrum to get the geek-culture crowd, the cast of The Big Bang Theory. A show like this requires the ability to think and to focus. This seems to be anathema to the modern viewing public.
I know! I would love to hear what Harry Turtledove and S.M. Stirling would have to say.
Robert White exactly.
Sadly, don't think it would be popular enough. Had hopes SF writers would be a big part of the programming when I first heard about the network. Would have been so much more enjoyable than the incessant re-runs/infomercials. By the time our cable system finally began carrying it all references to books were long gone.
Try The Geeks Guide To The Galaxy podcast in lieu of sy fy channel
If they had a show like this today, I'd howl with excitement everytime it came on.
To think that these titans are not with us anymore deeply saddens me.
Gene Wolfe brought me here.
same. Do you know of any similar videos? There are tons of Asimov for example but nothing of Gene. I guess that's the price of being prolific.
I think Wolfe is a humble person who lets his work speak for him.
What brought me was the idea of mixing these very different guys together.
The following program contains...
Harlan Ellison
Why are there no TV shows like this anymore ?
There are plenty of debates and discussions and panels across the world that you can go to. It exists all over google, give Hitchens or someone a search and you'll find a bunch of debates by all kinds of people on all kinds of things. TV in my country, the UK, still has some interesting things on it, but generally, I don't watch it. This is like people saying "I miss the 90s, music is so awful now"; they're missing out on all kinds of new groups, new sounds, old sounds etc. good music still exists, it's not the mainstream like it wasn't the mainstream when it was first written. It's out there, man!
You really do not know what you are talking about.
justgivemethetruth Because the USA became super stupid.
youtubers XD
You are correct. A culmination of anti-intellectualism pervades mainstream culture. You can find panels and discussions on very high faluting topics yes, but mouthbreathers have occupied the mainstream.
Bro I can't believe I never heard of Gene Wolfe before a few years ago when I heard GRRM talk about it and then a few more writers I enjoy. So I decided to finally read the book of the new sun. It's fkn incredible
Holy shit, talk about a powerhouse panel. What's better than intelligent people talking about intelligent things?
Amazing group and Studs as the host made this just perfect. Never seen Harlan so restrained. Also love how it ended, as if we we were allowed to eavesdrop on a private party. All gone now sadly but left their mark.
Restrained because he had just gotten some aggression out earlier. Just half an hour before taping, he beat up his publisher for printing his thriller as a sci-fi!
This is probably the greatest UA-cam thing I've seen in about a year. Also Gene Wolfe is nothing like how I pictured him. Obviously he shouldn't look EXACTLY like Severian, but even so...:)
Beautiful comment. I exploded in laughter.
ditto -- my first glimpse of Gene -- did not know!
I've seen one picture of him from the 1950's, fairly tall dark and handsome so a fit for Severian.
But should he have dressed as him...
Fun fact about Gene Wolfe: he helped invent Pringles but any resemblance between him and the mascot is purely coincidence.
This comment was deleted by the original poster, but because it's interesting I'll repeat it here:
'It turns out Asimov was wrong about no predictions of TV from space or the
Moon. One such story is "The Planeteer" (1918) by Homer Eon Flint. The
activities of the astronauts were televised and the audience could ask them
questions. This and a number of other stories were noted in letters in
Asimov's SF Magazine (April 1987 and November 1988).'
Gene wolfe is awesome
Man i wish there was a part 2!
I need to digitize my copy of this - it's slightly better. One of the best episodes of anything, ever
Yeah, the early Panasonic tapes like this one degraded badly over the years.
So? We're waiting .....
Well?
Still here!
Please??!
Wow. If only we could get programming like this in 2023 ..
I came to this to see Ike and Harlan together;
I had NO idea that Terkel and Trillin had a show together.
What a feast!
Wonderful video.
Thank you for the upload and sharing it.
Peaceful Skies.
Kudos to Terkel for reading their books and conducting an intelligent conversation.
I have to give this a thumb's up just for the name Studs Terkel
Thanks for posting this!
Thanks for this. Nice to see Asimov and Ellison talk about this stuff.
Such a flamboyant host. What a peculiar show this is. It's formatted a bit like Crossfire, only calmer.
Whether this is a sign of cultural standards declining or not, I can't say, but I feel that Asimov was too harsh on Alien (perhaps even missing its point). It's true that it's not singularly centered around any particular scientific theorem and that it's essentially a "haunted house in space", but it's no Star Wars either. Corporations developing/harsnessing biological weapons, using their own employees as test subjects, commercial ships being flown by blue collar "space truckers" rather than scientists etc.
I agree. It seems like a contemptuous dismissal almost, but I think it's a rather shallow one. I suspect it is more indicative of his feeling toward the media intruding into the genre, voiced in similar terms by other science fiction authors of the time.
Morteus
It's infuriating to see something that you love being bastardized and that bastardization gaining much wider mass appeal&recognition. I can't imagine how it must feel when that something you love is also something you helped to create.
"Alien" was more of a political/art-house movie than a real science-fiction movie. But then, I can't see what he is upset about because H. G. Wells wrote stories like "Alien" and you could even point out similarities to the "War of the Worlds" in the Alien movie.
I don't see much wrong with what Asimov said.
He was just making the point that the base story in Alien could be set anywhere hence, it's not really science fiction, (nor was he saying it's a terrible film).
Asimov is an engineer, so he wants, (and wrote), for things to have plausible explanations.
Any sci-fi based on a unscientific premise, (like Mass Effect technology in the games), is fantasy, and shouldn't be classified as Science Fiction - as Wolfe described it Science Fantasy. But the general public and media don't care about that distinction.
As Harlan then give as an example - explosions in space. There should be no noise, but the GP expects there to be a noise, (and if you ever try telling anyone that, you are deemed as a spoil sport).
I expect that since most of these guys have an interest in science, they want/hope the public could be educated about these things along the way.
_Alien_ was fundamentally a chainsaw-horror movie; it wasn't political or art-house by any stretch. It just happened to be a horror film that used a very good SF setting, and I think what Asimov (who was strictly a concept writer) was getting at, poorly, was that the story could be reset into another genre without significant changes (say, as a monster from the deep on a submarine: in fact _Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea_ did essentially that, 20 years earlier), because it was an iconic horror story. It just happens to fit well in a SF setting.
What he misses is that sometimes setting makes the story, because often readers just want to _be somewhere else_ . The more ironic because most of Asimov's own juveniles are just standard mysteries -- set in space.
Amazing! Thanks so much for this!
Let Wolfe talk! He's the most talented writer there.
But Asimov has the best muttonchops
I haven’t read him, but I’m truly convinced to read him influenced by Gaiman
What book do you guys recommend for starting reading Wolfe?
@@carlosmanuelloperena7362 For something short read The Fifth Head of Cerberus. For something long read The Book of the New Sun(It's the books 1 - Shadow & Claw and 2 - Sword & Citadel).
@@carlosmanuelloperena7362 Tough question. What do you like? Historical novel? Soldier books. Fantasy? Wizard Knight. Ghost story? Peace. Sci-fi? 5th Head or Book of the New Sun (it's 4 books, plus Urth of the New Sun) I like them all, but Peace and 5th head are both self contained, yet chewy. And... for any of them, to get the most mileage, you have to read them twice. Different story the second time through...
Thanks... that really does explain why he was so down on the term "science fiction" at the moment.
7:50 that National Geographic joke was underrated
Why was this so short?
:(
Not enough time ....waaaahhhh!.....Just when the conversation is starting to really get going ....it ends....That's Life I guess.
Gene Wolfe obviously the most talented artist here, but Asimov seems like such an intelligent, nice person. So does Wolfe.
But Harlan Ellison, too much coffee.
+BenjamminClark You're not kidding. You realize that when taping this show he had arrived straight from physically assaulting the CEO of Grosset & Dunlap? This is by his own admission. Google "Harlan Ellison assaulted publisher."
Not to mention he was on a break from chasing spouses.
Harlan is a highly strung genius. easily among the most talented artists of his generation.
Coffee. Right.
Does coffee usually make the lights too bright so you have to wear sunglasses indoors?
wolfe was too busy sucking up to Issac. sad. Issac is fantastic, but that doesn't preclude anyone else being fantastic...
The Intro was enough for a Thumbs Up
It's a little sad when they talk about book stores, a thing vanishing from the world.
Perhaps in the future, we will have gathering places for book lovers without any commercial intentions involved instead of stores. I think that would be an improvement.
@@NuntiusLegis They call that lectures and schools. Support independent bookstores. If you don't know the value of indie bookstores, I pity you.
@@jdd8826 Lectures and schools are mainly places to learn, not to discuss what has been learned. Indie bookstores also exist in the internet already; buildings where books are sold are not effective as places for discussions.
"Ghandi is dandy, but liquor is quicker." snerk
Sneed
Thank You for this!
--Bill Bixby, in the credits, on camera!
1982 ... but looks like it was filmed in 1962.
Amazing video. Feels like I stumbled upon hidden jewels
Anyone know if there's a transcript of this?
Thank you.
Great stuff. Thanks.
I was kind of surprised that Harlan didn't speak up for Alien since he's expressed admiration for it over the years. Alien was much more than just SFX, given its exploration of male fear of rape/female reproduction and androgyny (the alien has the head of a penis, a disturbingly female form, etc). That being said, fascinating video by some truly great writers.
Wolfe talks about this interview here: ua-cam.com/video/CiXC3bss204/v-deo.html
Apparently the room was filthy beyond the light and he talks about Ellison also.
"I hope you don't mean we should have dropped Ghandi on Hiroshima" XD. Seriously though, this is really interesting, much better than the fuckwits on tv today.
It annoys me when the interviewers always ask stupid questions and keep skipping around and interrupting. It's easy to tell that the three writers are on a whole different intellectual level than the other two
Ooooh, Asimov and adult language, I'm in.
The following program contains adult language and big words.
The average mind couldn't handle The ideas of this Nightcap
Holy crap, they used the word 'tetralogy' and not that fake piece of shit 'quadrilogy'. Well done!
Greek rules, Latin sucks!
Both languages rule, but combining them in a single word sucks.
lol, so no higher quality record of this episode was preserved somewhere?
The moderator is Studs Terkel?
There used to be a respect for educated people and intellectual discourse.
And now we have Aliette de Bodard and Ann Leckie. What happened?
Asimov was a very rational man.
dream blunt rotation
Hope you dont mean dropping Ghandi on Hiroshima... Legend
Which book of Wolfe's should I read first, any recommendations?
Which did you choose?
I remember reading the stories Asimov talked about here with a tiny little demon that granted people's wishes, they weren't great lol.
Wolfe.. sanity and divine.
The difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy is, Science Fiction doesn't have a tree on the cover.
Not sure I totally agree with Asimov about Alien. Yes, there is the alien and the ship, but philosophically it's definitely meant to be about the fear of the unknown emptiness and vastness of space, which is a valid scientific concept which could be faced by space travellers.
Dungeons and Dragons added a Spelljammer supplements last year and many people were angry at it because it was basically Aliens. A Dungeon in space. People wanted ship combat like Star Wars and we got Space Dungeons. No one was happy with this. 🏴☠⚔🏹🌌🪐⛵🦹🧙♂🧝♀Spelljammer: The WORST D&D Release To Date ua-cam.com/video/t4tL_K9r8ps/v-deo.html
Gene Wolfe sounds like George Lucas!
Only ONE of the writers sports the LAMB CHOPS OF DOOM. GUESS which one!
So I guess Harlan Ellison was WRONG about how we conduct space travel. 24:51 so Sifi IS a predictor of the future.
He wasn't wrong. Sifi predicted that the way we conduct space travel today would be the way that we were going to land on the moon for the first time which as you may be aware is NOT how it happened. So no, Harlan Ellison wasn't wrong because he was making a factual statement about a past event, he wasn't making any prediction.
2557
I admit after watching this again he made some very good points. The Dude had me so on guard watching him. He was aggressive yet uptight like he wasn't comfortable. I have to admit it made me edgy. You even see Asimov toss him a bone to help him be at ease or get him off his back ether one. I actual saw this when it aired and didn't know who these people were. 😄 My boyfriend wanted to watch it so I all ready had a chip on my shoulder. 😉 I was not a fan of A Boy and His Dog. I am a Foundation fan.
This idea that humans are basically good is like a child's idealistic view of the world. Humans are descended from more basic animals, therefore are default position is one of selfish self-interest with no concept of good or evil but only desire. Just as a chimp desires to protects its own group but viciously attacks outsider chimps. We are slightly more advanced but we still are far from "good". Have you read the news lately? We have all desired to hurt someone at some point in our lives. Maybe we didn't act on it but that devil still dwells within us all.
I mean, we're pretty damn good compared to everything else that is known to exist. Chimps can't cooperate on a massive scale like we have. Even if they could talk, that wouldn't be enough, because chimps can only trust other chimps that they know. To be moral requires imagination. Human beings can tell each other stories, fictions, and through shared belief in those stories reach mutual cooperation and harmony. Stories like "money has value," and, "murder is wrong," and, "people have inalienable human rights."
Most people don't want to murder anyone and hope they never have to. People repress their desires every day in order to maintain peace within the collective. There is less violence and murder today than there has ever been. Since you brought up chimps, we learned that from them and ran with it. The group is so important that they have learned to suppress their desires and delay gratification. Chimps share food when they know others are hungry, and they don't when others have just eaten, reinforcing the concept of fairness in the group. Chimps mediate disputes and get others to make up after fights. Chimps pass the marshmallow test that many human children can't even pass. To be human is to tell stories, and to live in peace is to find stories we can all believe in. That there is still violence and suffering in the world is not proof that humans know only desire and self-interest, but that there are still competing stories in the world. I think it should be quite easy to think of the many times human beings have put their own self-interest and base desires behind serving higher causes.
Row-butt.
What the hell is a row-but?
It's a well organized ashtray!
Robot
i listened too the writers griping about there own work and sale ffs
16:50
:O
Hmm
Harlan Ellison didn't identify as a science fiction writer, and none of them identified as 'sci fi' writers.
Maybe Studs Terkel and Calvin Trillin. You might be able to call them sci fi writers.
Damn he started off by talking shit about sci-fi. What the hell is his problem!? XD
Love this kind of open discussion where they aren't holding back.
Look at how he is dressed like Han Solo and the pipe and bighting the nails. He is the new kid with a hard upbringing. It stresses me to watch too but he is amazing and didn't need to be so uptight. He needed a hug. 😄
I love how at the end of this video, Harlan puts his head on his hand and looks off into the darkness, as if to say, "Why did I even bother coming on this show?" Don't get me wrong. I like Asimov and Wolfe and Turkel, can't remember what Calvin Trillin has written right now. But I'm a Harlan Ellison guy and Harlan barely got a few sentences in edgewise.
My favorite author Gene Wolfe and two hacks. :D
We gotta read ''new'' sun again, someday.
S'matter, pumpkin? Ellison fan? :D
You've got to be shitting me...Isaac Asimov and Harlan Ellison are "hacks"????? I've never heard such bullshit in my life
Gene Wolfe fans are obnoxiously fanatic.
:)
Asimov's criticism of Alien was cringe...
He's not wrong though, if you consider what his generation saw as Sci-fi. You can see where that came from.
Good movie? Maybe, who cares. Great science fiction? Many will disagree.
@@Daniel_Rodrigues_89 What he said made absolutely no sense. The alien only appears half way through the movie... a lot of people love the first half of the movie more than the second. If he really thinks Alien is all about the jump scares he's seriously deluded. The alien only appears a handful of times. Of course it is in some basic sense a horror movie in space... but there's a lot more to it than that. Ash and Ripley alone are far more compelling characters than Asimov has ever written. And multiple cool sci-fi ideas in the movie. I love Asimov's writing for the most part, but here he's just totally wrong here.
Why was Ellison here? And why didn't they let the most talented writer speak more? I would have much preferred this if it were just Wolfe.
Audio lousy.
adult language
El siguente programa tiene humanidad, Dios, y idéas
Sorry, afraid not.
Harlan. Good writer, complete useless space otherwise.
the warning should have been "The following program contains Harlan Ellison ,. Viewer discretion advised. "
Yet it was Gene who said "Son of a bitch, mother fucker."
@@Ematched Nadie és santo
Ya gotta love Harlan the pugnacious & the outrageous.
The warning should've been 'The Following program contains a Highly intellectual discussion: Morons be advised'
Who would of guessed Gene Wolfe would say "son of a b*tch, motherf#*ker" before Harlan?
The following program contains adults having an intelligent discussion.
+SufferingFoolsMusic ..and its so refreshing to see that . Unfortunately now most of television consists of mindless entertainment with not just 'adult language' but outright vulgar language .....and unfortunately they dont care about warning us about it .
Indeed. And apparently you could use the useful word "bullshit" in a 1982 television program!
Cable.
Glad to see you cut right to what's important ... for you.
Thanks for the warning.
The Book of The New Sun is phenomenal.
I agree and half the time I don't know what's going on in that book!!!
Its a book you gotta read 3 times to get it @PackerBronco
I can't believe this was only 25 minutes long. I wanted two hours at least.
Me also. Ive been on a real Azimov kick lately.
It's such an efficient 25 minutes though. It had real natural flow and everyone got to say something that really speaks to their character and their art. Ellison is so comfortable here compared to his notorious manner.
Three ages of science fiction represented here. Isaac Asimov with the Golden Age. Harlan Ellison with the New Wave. And Gene Wolfe with ... ah ... with the Gene Wolfe age of which he is the only member.
PackerBronco Spot On!
Age of the Autarch.
Haha apt
Yeah Ellison and Asimov. Expect adult language.
Larry Niven said; "gene wolfe is quietly writing us all under the table".
I like Asimov, and I love Ellison, but Wolfe is an unparalleled genius.
Got it in one toastheen
AMEN! Not even close
and they all know that. no one would guess from this at first.
Indeed:)
Never heard of
Imagine getting these three together and then only having 25 minutes of airtime to show it in. And I bet the original pre-edit recordings are long gone.
We haven't really moved forward in the last forty years. We've moved backward. We are descending into a kind of technobarbarism. And I say that as a Gen Xer who was a child when this interview aired.
Sad but true. Fellow Gen Xer here.
I am a millennial and I wouldn't Mind a good discussion show on Occasion
...which Isaac warned us about. We're marching toward Solaria.
This kids is called discourse. You'll never find it on Twitter.
..and certainly not on X.
Johns Oliver and Stewart can hit it on a good day.
Very interesting interview, although the interviewers are annoying, they keep interrupting the writers. Nice example of the 3 kinds of writers, at least in Sci-Fi: the scientist, Asimov, who's very comfortable here. The marketer Ellison, with the pretty face and the leather jacket, and the literary genius, Wolfe, who clearly is uncomfortable here.
its bothered me all day that whoever posted this video just flippantly left Wolfe's name out of the title...i like Asimov and Ellison but Wolfe is in my opinion not only the best writer on this show but the best writer that i know of currently living.
thenightlamp1 Just trying to keep the title short, but have it your own way. :)
I would have to politely disagree that Wolfe is better than Asimov
Asimov is a master, but the quality of prose that Ellison and Wolfe produce--especially Wolfe--to me should be deemed Nobel worthy. Le Guin is also right there with Wolfe, in my opinion. Unfortunately, the literati would never acknowledge them in such a way.
That said, Asimov's stories have brought me to tears more than the work of any other writer period.
A mi hijo mayór le gusta Ellison, Brunner, y Clarke
HOT take big agree
Let Gene talk ffs....
Really interesting conversation about such an amazing literary genre.I wish TV networks still showed intelligent material like this rather than all those ridiculous "reality" shows that are all over the place and make people look at how other people live their lives rather than their own.Luckily,thanks to science,computers and UA-cam I have the freedom of what I want to watch and how I want to watch it.
I've read all three authors works back to back. Gene Wolfe was by far the most intellectual, challenging and useful to my own development of any of theirs
. Three excellent authors but Wolfe asks the most from his reader but also gives the most by far
It's almost crazy to read this comment section where Isaac Asimov is called an amateur just for the reason of what company is gathered there. I consider myself a great fan of science fiction, yet I've never even heard of Gene Wolfe. I guess I have to fix this.
Did you fix it? Wolfe us more of a cult following, Asimov is surely more popular. I like both.
Far too short, they were gust getting warmed up. Thank you for preserving this for us!
At the inception of the Sci-Fi channel it was headed in this direction and some of their programs were intellectually stimulating and thought provoking, IMO, but like everything else in creative endeavors corporations interfere, they Americanize, homogenize and sterilize. The funny thing is 38 years later, it’s still the same bull shit, nothing has changed, yay!; The thought that came to my mind, many years shortly afterwards of this “roundtable” discussion and not even knowing this took place, was, we are on our own and those with half a brain have to fight for their sanity because governments are not going to fed our intellectual nourishment.
At 8:00, Ellison says something rather interesting that in 1960, Robert Heinlein failed to predict that space exploration would be the province and effort of governments. Instead, he postulated that it would be big business that fosters the space program from its own, "backyard". Fast Forward to 2021...Heinlein has been proved correct on a lot of that now! Fascinating to see Gene Wolfe. I would never guess that the Book of the New Sun would come from someone who looks so...normal.
I've often said I feel sure Musk (and maybe some of his rivals) must have read the Man Who Sold the Moon as a child or teeen.
The ultimate nerd showdown: arguing on the difference between science fiction and science fantasy.
They didn't let Wolfe finish his answer on that.
I’ll top that with a discussion about sci-fi vs. hard sci-fi. :)