The VHS-C format was initially an idea to make portable VCRs much more lighter and smaller. It was introduced in 1982 with the JVC HR-C3 portable recorder, a year before the Betamovie.
My older brother had a few VHS-C units back in the day but I remember them being terrible compared to 8mm. My first camcorder was a second hand full sized VHS unit my grandad got me and I remember the joy of owning my first camera then later I got a Sony Video 8 XR unit in late 90’s and much preferred that format. Later I remember the wonderful new Digital 8 units going on sale and when my grandmother past away she left us all some money and with mine I traded my Video 8 XR unit in with my added money to get a shiny new Digital 8 unit in 1999 the Sony TRV310E with a massive flip out screen and the joys of playing old tapes and recording awesome digital picture on the cheaper HI8 tapes. Years later (about a month ago) I picked up that very same model off eBay and apart from the built in speaker sounding rather distorted for unknown reason it functions like new 😊 I use that to digitise all my 8 mm tapes now and customer tapes when the jobs come in.
I cannoy but agree with every single statement you made here. I've been archiving Video8, Hi8 and Digital8 the past days and I didn't have any problems at all. I also tried to read a miniDVD but without initial success, but managed to recover a lot using IsoBuster, a nice piece of software that reads out discs sector by sector and is able to detect video and other data. The quality of the material was very poor indeed, but I have never been a fan of MPEG2 compression as it clearly is unable to record a lot of fine details in a single frame while encoding on the fly. Thanks for the nice video. Your happy face at the start was a warm welcome at five P.M. on this grumpy day I'm having. Thank you!
I was a 9 year old kid when my parents bought our first video camera, it was a Sony Hi8, and I remember being dissapointed because I wasn't able to play back the tapes on our VHS tabletop VCR using an adapter like my cousin's camera (a VHS-C, obviously), but later I discovered that I could record up to 2 hours, or even 4 in LP mode, while theirs only could record 30 minutes, or 1:30 hours in EP mode but drastically recuding not only video quality but audio fidelity as well, meanwhile mine had excellent video and audio quality no matter the recording speed I used, so I'm glad that my parents chose an Hi8 and not a VHS-C camcorder.
Must share some comments on this videogenic subject... VHS-C, in the beginning (1984/85), with the sexy JVC GR-C1 was a historic leap into the future. A real camcorder that could actually replay its tapes instantly, unlike Betamovie. But it was still a shoulder mounted Saticon tube camera... Just around the corner, Sony launched Video 8, in a new sleek approach to camcorders, now CCD sensor equipped and a full range of accessories. Do you remember Sony Sports? Fresh concepts that brought out, simultaneously, the ever-smaller Handycam and the impressive semi-pro range with V100/V200. Later in Hi8, Sony cameras like the V5000/V6000 and VX1 really set standards that no other would match with its digital processing. Must also remember that Canon helped a lot in the massive market share of Video 8, and offered the option of interchangeable lens in Hi8, with the Canon L1. One last good shot from JVC was the GR-S707, an SVHS-C. Of course full SVHS from JVC (GF-S1000H) and Panasonic (MS1/MS10) could be a great hi-band option. But in the early 90s, the trend was set and Video 8/Hi8 was king. At the same time, in the broadcast industry, Betacam SP had become THE standard. Cheers 🇵🇹
I recently acquired a VHS-C Camcorder for cheap (A JVC GR-AXM18u), and after doing some research on it, it's a model that was manufactured and sold as early as 2006. I never used Video 8 before apart from one time when I was pretty young (or any camcorders for that matter apart from the one I recently got), but I'm convinced by this video that Video 8 had the clear advantage over VHS-C in every aspect. Though, I'm curious about VHS-C. What made VHS-C hold on for just as long as Video 8 if it had so many drawbacks? Was it just brand recognition? Were VHS-C tapes and camcorders cheaper than Video 8? Were people just that convinced on being able to playback their films on their VCRs?
I think it's because Panasonic didn't want to give up and sell Video8, that they carried on trying to sell them to a vanishingly small market in the late 1990s. When miniDV came along, they would still sell VHSC to old people who wanted easy playback on their VHS recorder at home. But sales numbers of VHSC vs Video8 towards the end of analogue, showed that VHSC had lost.
Every one of those videos with the VHS-C adaptor that I've seen, have the automatic one with the battery. I've literally never seen one of those in person, they were always manual.
What about Digital 8? Physically different to Mini DV, but compatible data stream. MPEG was later used in other formats, including consumer and professional ones such as HDV, Betacam SX, MPEG-IMX and I think HDCAM and possibly HDCAM-SR and XDCAM. How did these formats manage to use MPEG as an acquisition format when it would seem to be more suited to being a release one?
I mentioned Digital 8 in the on-screen comments, it was moderately successful and a useful upgrade for people with existing 8mm tapes who wanted DV performance. True MPEG2 is used with other formats, presumably at higher data rates for better editing. The MPEG2 compression does cause some difficulties with HDV, particularly that dropouts are more obvious on HDV than DV.
Uhh... Colin, you've seemed to have the VHS-C cassette in the case bottom side down. Not top side up, where we see the supply reel with the remaining tape used, and the label right next to it.
As a side note, in the NTSC system, the recording time difference between Video8 and VHS-C is even bigger, because here, standard VHS-C tapes only can record 30 minutes in SP mode or 1:30 hours in SLP mode, but drastically reducing the audio and video quality. High capacity tapes were availabe later that could store 45 minutes in SP or 2:15 hours in SLP. On the other hand, standard Video8 tapes could record 2 hours in SP and 4 hours in LP, reducing video quelity but not the audio fidelity.
I paid £1000 for a very early DVD-RAM camcorder, a Hitachi DZ-MV100E, in the early 2000s. Think it was reduced from around three grand. Took it to its native Japan where there were quite a few people visibly impressed by the thing. It worked really well with a Toshiba DVD-RAM/HDD home recorder I had, the recordings worked across both machines. Unfortunately I dropped it from about three feet onto concrete and it never worked properly again. It was almost certainly just bad alignment (it became super-picky with media and recordings glitched). I don't think such delicate mechanicals lend themselves well to portable use. I may still have it somewhere and can donate it if you're interested.
Thank you for the video. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I did not catch the time of analog cameras, but I am filling this gap now. And now it's easier, they are very cheap. Judging by the ads on the secondary market in my country, the VHS-C models were more popular. I will add that later on VHS-C cassettes a stopper was added to the take-up spool. Also from the features of VHS-C there is support for glorious SECAM and the ability to dub a linear audio track, and since VHS-C cameras are larger, manufacturers equipped them with large lenses and CCD. In this regard, I admire the S-VHS-C light sensitivity of the Panasonic NV-S88 model, and the ability to set the aperture not in arbitrary units, but in f-number. There are significantly fewer 8mm / hi8 cameras on our secondary market, and the situation is aggravated by the fact that models from the 90s have capacitor leaks, and their restoration is almost pointless, unless it is some kind of top model. And the models of the 2000s already belong to the decline of analog cameras, they were cheaper, it happened in hi8 models that they began to install small matrices with a video8 resolution of 250 lines ... The situation with VHS-C is interesting, as you know, there is a reduced drum with twice the number of video heads. Ever since LP speed was introduced in camcorders, instead of installing an additional 4 heads with LP gap (24μm), manufacturers have simply installed all 4 LP gap heads, and at SP speed they don't use the full available track width, which means less RF signal, and when rewinding and freeze frame we have wide noise bands. There were exceptions, in the early top model camcorder from JVC there were 8 heads, 4 for each speed, but then there was no Hi-Fi Stereo yet. And with this in mind, you would have to install 12 heads + a flying eraser with a counterweight, and all this on a small drum. In this regard, the 8mm format clearly wins, there are only 2 heads and a flying eraser with a counterweight, and Hi-Fi sound is already built in. I don’t know how it was in early models, but in the 2000s we see the same situation, separate heads for LP did not appear, instead the main heads have an LP gap and all the same problems with wide noise bands on rewind and pause
I'm not aware of any markets where VHSC outsold 8mm, but it is just about possible I suppose. Audio dub was possible on high end 8mm decks and camcorders, but most didn't support that.
Thanks a great video as always and kind of agree with all said but I think you glossed over just how fragile tape can be. A tape used be a consumer who has no understanding that maintenance is important can easily end up with a recorder that trashed everything that goes in it, tramlines and flats on pinch rollers come to mind.
I detect a little bit of bias in this video... heh. You didn't go over cost of actually owning and using the two systems, including blank tapes etc. And of course a degausser will erase the VHS... that was the point. Metal tape erasers were a totally different thing. And I don't think anyone could "accidentally" put their VHS tape through a degaussing...
Since two VHSC tapes would be required for the same running time as a Video8 tape, I think it would be fair to say that Video8 was cheaper to run per hour.
I'm not the only one who has broken VHSC cassettes to bits trying to access to the tape then! Those screws are a nightmare and if you put too much force on it the head strips. Some minidv tapes are a pain too when the manufacturers decided to get rid of the screws and fuse the 2 halves together. Some very cheap VHS cassettes are the same. We're 4 tiny screws really that expensive? Great video Colin as always
If you have a broken DV tape (the type with welds instead of screws) it's easy to suck the broken ends from the housing using a short piece of tubing...you have to release the brake and rotate the spools slightly for best results, there are no guides to worry about inside DV and Video 8 housings.
I've opened dozens of those JVC branded VHS-C cassette tapes and it's always down to the tip on your screwdriver. If you use the right one, they come off pretty easy. The MiniDV tapes that are glued together can be easily taken apart with the help of a blade. You don't need anything else.
My family went to vhs-c camp back then. The main reason would be compatibility. The quality would be on less priority. Only if we first realized to use hi-8 as "aquision format", then dubbed it to normal VHS tape(s) as "distribution format" among relatives... A big duhhhhhh every time I though about that. What a goof...😓
THe 8mm cassette was a great invention that surived considerable amount of time after Video8 was phased out. Nice mug in the background, though. I'd love to try these problematic LP tapes on my machine.
The answer to that is a bit complicated! There are certain brands to avoid on certain formats. Fuji 8mm tapes can go mouldy. Ampex Umatic and Beta tapes suffer from sticky-shed. Maxell 8mm tapes are hard to reassemble. Some JVC VHSC tapes can't be dismantled. Generally good brands like TDK and Sony are pretty reliable.
For Hi8 I'd avoid the earlier Sony formulations - they tend to shed with age, ruining recordings and clogging video heads. The later ones were better though, and their standard Video8 tapes never had this issue.
I was pleasantly surprised how reliable Video8 and Digital8 tapes are, I've recently transferred around 50 of our old family tapes with the exact Sony camera my parents used to record me around 20+ years ago, only few Digital8 tapes gave some trouble that was easily solved by cleaning the heads. The picture quality even on the older Video8 tapes that are almost 30 years old is great for what it is, much better than classic VHS. And being able to transfer it directly to raw DV files via firewire without having to mess with capture cards was great too.
Ironically you could likewise use many Digital8 (or MiniDV) cameras to convert your VHS(or any other) tapes as well. A number of these cameras have 'passthrough' from the analog AV input socket, converted to digital for the firewire output. It seems to work very well, presumably as at least some cameras were converting an analog signal from the camera sensor anyway.
If stored properly, it should last almost indefinitely. Metal tapes have excellent magnetic retentivitity. Tapes could last longer than players to play them.
@@video99couk Wow great to know that! My dog just chewed my old cassette until the metal tape breaks. I thought all the data had been lost. Will try to reconnect the tape and see if I'm still able to recover the data. Thank you for the answer :)
i never had any cam's at all my mate did have used one's he was with a cam club used to record live bands in reading dad and mate did wedding is the past alot of the pro deck this was in the 80's just before betacam cam came out
Nice video! I have a 1994 SVHS-C palmcorder with Hi-Fi audio. It shoots pretty good quality video with F1.2 lens and a half-megapixel sensor. The recording can be played on an SVHS VHS machine or on a machine that has SQPB mode, so there is some compatibility, Hi8 cannot be played on anything but Hi8. Well, it can be played on a Digital8 machine. I wish DV cassettes were never created, and we would continue into 21st century with 8-mm tapes. DVD recorders were completely useless - bad quality, too much fiddling. Same with AVCHD machines that recorded onto Mini-DVD. I never had a camcorder with optical media, I went straight to ones that recorded on SD cards.
But Hi8 became so commonplace that it was pretty much the standard for all enthusiasts for many years. SVHSC sales were tiny in comparison. Some people did buy Hi8 home decks too, like the EV-C2000E and expensive EV-S9000E.
Great info! I’m trying to digitize my family’s home videos from VHSC and some of the audio has flutter like people are talking into a fan, regardless if I play it back in-camera or in a VHS player. Anyone have any idea how to mitigate that?
If two players do the same thing then it's likely a fault on the original recordings. It probably can't be resolved. Just one thing to try though, if your camera has hi-fi sound, it might be a bad hi-fi track so try the linear mono sound track. The player and camera will have a switch to select that.
I rememeber JVC pushing SVHS, even after Panasonic threw in the towel and started producing Mini-DV. They did not sell well. Sony was still selling Hi8 as a base models to their D8 lines for another 5 years. Sony was making all three formats with Mini-DV being aimed at more of the pro-sumer. I don't think VHS was passable by the consumer by the time Hi8 was phased.
I agree 8mm is vastly superior than VHS-C in almost every way but I think it's unfair to call it a 'bodge'. For what it was, it was pretty good. Let's not forget that Sony went through so much complexity and over-engineering to get a camcorder that would record onto Betamax but which wouldn't play the footage back, whereas JVC just made the same format using smaller tapes and hey presto record and playback, and the ability to play back in a home VCR if required. Effectively 8mm tapes were part of Sony's response to losing that particular duel - and in that way should probably not be seen as a rival format to VHS-C in any more way that Betamax should. Sure they were superior in every way to VHS-C but they would have needed to be in order to wrestle the camcorder format war back in their favour. While any 8mm camcorder looks a lot sleeker and appealing than a VHS-C from the same era, the same could also be said of the JVC GR-C1 over any of the Betamovie cameras.
@@video99couk it was indeed and fair play and all. But it's that same logic I think we should apply to VHS-C which is that it was the next stage in camcorder media. Then came 8mm which was the next improvement until the high end formats. It's just the various companies were tied to their respective formats and hence found themselves almost unwittingly in a format war. VHS-C clung on as best it could despite its deficiencies, and to be fair disapeared around the same time as 8mm if memory serves.
Betamax pretty much lost home market by the beginning of 1980s, so Sony bumped it to pro usage creating Betacam, and joined 8-mm consortium to create a format for camcorders. In the end, Sony came out as a winner, conquering pro video market, consumer camcorder market and also joining VHS, while JVC tried to revive VHS several times with W-VHS and D-VHS, but to no avail.
I've always liked Video8 as a format, forums will tell you it's full of dropouts (digitalfaq and the usual suspects detest it) but I'm yet to find any poor Video8 recordings (and by extension Hi8) - usually it's a format that provides nice clean transfers. Perhaps I get lucky, but I'm yet to really struggle with it - VHS-C on the other hand....
I agree, dropouts are much less of a problem on 8mm than with VHSC. Not to say they never happen, but much less obtrusively on average. I think the VHSC adaptors knocked the tapes about a lot.
Can I ask you a quick question about VHS-C? I have some old VHS-C tapes that plays in like green/White gameboy colours if you know what I mean. Do you know what can be causing this issue?
@@video99couk Yeah the VHS-C tapes I have does this, I have tried the tapes in multiple VCRs and it does the same thing. I am gueesing the tapes where recorded with a broken Camcorder.
They're pretty easy to take apart. There're two or three catches on the sides that you have to release after taking off all the screws. If you forget those catches you can break the cassette housing...
i didn't realise there were so many formats and quality problems. I didn't hear you say much about the cost to the public, most camcorders would cost you a kidney from new, and sony wanted all your familys kidneys :-D. It seems almost imposible to make a new product without someone jumping on the band wagon and making the water muddy.
Well, i feel that i''m lucky. My camcorder is mini-DV Panasonic NV-GS400. so i got a best quality video format first, no troubles with VHS-C or Hi8, etc. I also bought the CHEAPEST BUNDLE IN THE WORLD ( 600 rubles = around 10 USD, with that exchange rates) with included 6 mini-DV tapes, good condition at all, AND, ORIGINAL PANASONIC POWER SUPPLY, with means that i can plug my nv-gs400 in power supply, then plug power supply straight to 220V. And this is inportant , 'cause both batteries is dead. first wont charge at all, second charging, but camcorder can work with it, around 4-5 minutes. I dismantled first battery and going to reestablish it. Gonna buy the imax b6 impulse charger. good luck to me UPD: i can now throw video from mini-DV no through the Firewire caple, cause my Win10 pc don't have this port, i use USB, NV-GS400 shots pictures to SD card, and have a PC CONNECTIN MODE, through USB . progs to get video is Scenlyzer Pro and WinDV. Scenlyzer works better.
You can add Firewire to any Windows 10 desktop but it's not so easy to a laptop. MiniDV camcorders are give-away prices now, hardly anyone wants them any more.
@@video99couk im not sure about which soft i need for firewire controller, or camcorder should appear in file explorer like an usb device or something like that?
hi got a old mate he loves the lp on vhs i have watched alot of your video's time time he gets used vhs decks in i told him to keep to only some models as you say about tape line up on the long play as you know by how i am a betacam fan them mate don't under stand betacam they thing the hi -fi is better than beta cam sorry betacam sound blow away hi if stereo i had the hifi to many drop outs you have go points in this video pleased you made this bob
What a nonsense. VHS-C was a better system when you look at the specs. A higher signal to noise resolution and more natural colors. 8 mm had a better sound quality but that was limited by the standard microphone. I was a salesman in the 80's and most people preferred the harder and more artificial colors of a 8 mm camcorder. A big disadvantage is the fact that many 8mm tapes are dropout city because of the metal vaporized tapes and when you're camcorder has broken down its quiet difficult to play them while you can play back your vhs-c tapes in any vhs recorder what you can buy for next to nothing. I have some old magazines from the 80's and in every test the conclusion was the camera from a 8mm camcorder was sometimes better the playback part was important less then his vhs c counterpart.
No, sorry to disagree, but VHSC generally gave worse results than Video8. Of course results would vary from one model to another, but all the worst camcorders (Amstrad, Chinon) were VHSC. These days I run lots of 8mm and VHSC tapes, and there is no doubt at all that VHSC suffers more dropouts than 8mm. Then of course there is the running time problem with VHSC, it was so short that it may just be unsuitable for events where a tape change is impractical. The ratio of 8mm to VHSC sales, and that VHSC manufacturers such as Sharp moved to 8mm, shows that VHSC lost the battle.
And many brands turned over to vhs-c. Not a very strong argument. As a matter of fact a big player like Philips cancelled the 8 mm project and went to vhs.
@@video99couk back in time, if you were in case you have to shot events that need more than 45 min or 90 min (excluding use of LP mode), you'll not either buy vhsc or 8mm. full size (s)vhs camcorder with their unbeatable 240 min or even 300 min in standard mode was probabely the better way to go. then the problem was the battery runtime, always a matter of compromises in this good old analogue world :)
@petertrappel both vhsc and video8 were around the same resolution capability (around 250 TVL) i really don't understand what mean "artificial color" or "natural color", both of them on tape used the color under process. and roughly have the same bandwidth for color. the only things that could act on coulour apperance was the tube or ccd device, and the way the camcorder did the job with automatic white balance...
I had a Digital8, and I was able to play Hi8 tapes and transfer them off via Firewire -- an undocumented trick of those cameras. I had a Hi8 tape of an old datacenter at NASA I did this way to transfer off. It's at ua-cam.com/video/am60T-p7f1E/v-deo.html
Well it's not really undocumented. It's the reason that those Digital8 players which support analogue playback (not all do), are still quite valuable today.
The VHS-C format was initially an idea to make portable VCRs much more lighter and smaller. It was introduced in 1982 with the JVC HR-C3 portable recorder, a year before the Betamovie.
Fascinating. Thanks! Glad to know the bloke who sold us a Video8 camcorder was telling the truth.
My older brother had a few VHS-C units back in the day but I remember them being terrible compared to 8mm. My first camcorder was a second hand full sized VHS unit my grandad got me and I remember the joy of owning my first camera then later I got a Sony Video 8 XR unit in late 90’s and much preferred that format. Later I remember the wonderful new Digital 8 units going on sale and when my grandmother past away she left us all some money and with mine I traded my Video 8 XR unit in with my added money to get a shiny new Digital 8 unit in 1999 the Sony TRV310E with a massive flip out screen and the joys of playing old tapes and recording awesome digital picture on the cheaper HI8 tapes. Years later (about a month ago) I picked up that very same model off eBay and apart from the built in speaker sounding rather distorted for unknown reason it functions like new 😊 I use that to digitise all my 8 mm tapes now and customer tapes when the jobs come in.
I cannoy but agree with every single statement you made here. I've been archiving Video8, Hi8 and Digital8 the past days and I didn't have any problems at all. I also tried to read a miniDVD but without initial success, but managed to recover a lot using IsoBuster, a nice piece of software that reads out discs sector by sector and is able to detect video and other data. The quality of the material was very poor indeed, but I have never been a fan of MPEG2 compression as it clearly is unable to record a lot of fine details in a single frame while encoding on the fly. Thanks for the nice video. Your happy face at the start was a warm welcome at five P.M. on this grumpy day I'm having. Thank you!
I was a 9 year old kid when my parents bought our first video camera, it was a Sony Hi8, and I remember being dissapointed because I wasn't able to play back the tapes on our VHS tabletop VCR using an adapter like my cousin's camera (a VHS-C, obviously), but later I discovered that I could record up to 2 hours, or even 4 in LP mode, while theirs only could record 30 minutes, or 1:30 hours in EP mode but drastically recuding not only video quality but audio fidelity as well, meanwhile mine had excellent video and audio quality no matter the recording speed I used, so I'm glad that my parents chose an Hi8 and not a VHS-C camcorder.
Ma-tsu-shi-ta with stress on "i"
Need a native Japanese speaker to confirm the proper pronunciation.
ma-TSUSH-ta
I would also like to add that Video8 and Hi8 tapes look sexy and camcorders are slicker.
Even Video 8 basic camcorders (not XR ones) looks pretty good.
Yep, we started using EP on VHS-C . Very hard to track up. Original camera is dead as door nail. Have to fiddle with the vcr to get it to lock up
Luckily there is software out there that I use for customers with non finalized DVDs. It reads the blank disk and exports a mpeg file. A life saver
I often use ISOBuster for this.
@@video99couk yes that’s what I use. Life saver
Must share some comments on this videogenic subject...
VHS-C, in the beginning (1984/85), with the sexy JVC GR-C1 was a historic leap into the future. A real camcorder that could actually replay its tapes instantly, unlike Betamovie. But it was still a shoulder mounted Saticon tube camera... Just around the corner, Sony launched Video 8, in a new sleek approach to camcorders, now CCD sensor equipped and a full range of accessories. Do you remember Sony Sports? Fresh concepts that brought out, simultaneously, the ever-smaller Handycam and the impressive semi-pro range with V100/V200.
Later in Hi8, Sony cameras like the V5000/V6000 and VX1 really set standards that no other would match with its digital processing.
Must also remember that Canon helped a lot in the massive market share of Video 8, and offered the option of interchangeable lens in Hi8, with the Canon L1.
One last good shot from JVC was the GR-S707, an SVHS-C.
Of course full SVHS from JVC (GF-S1000H) and Panasonic (MS1/MS10) could be a great hi-band option. But in the early 90s, the trend was set and Video 8/Hi8 was king.
At the same time, in the broadcast industry, Betacam SP had become THE standard.
Cheers 🇵🇹
I recently acquired a VHS-C Camcorder for cheap (A JVC GR-AXM18u), and after doing some research on it, it's a model that was manufactured and sold as early as 2006. I never used Video 8 before apart from one time when I was pretty young (or any camcorders for that matter apart from the one I recently got), but I'm convinced by this video that Video 8 had the clear advantage over VHS-C in every aspect.
Though, I'm curious about VHS-C. What made VHS-C hold on for just as long as Video 8 if it had so many drawbacks? Was it just brand recognition? Were VHS-C tapes and camcorders cheaper than Video 8? Were people just that convinced on being able to playback their films on their VCRs?
I think it's because Panasonic didn't want to give up and sell Video8, that they carried on trying to sell them to a vanishingly small market in the late 1990s. When miniDV came along, they would still sell VHSC to old people who wanted easy playback on their VHS recorder at home. But sales numbers of VHSC vs Video8 towards the end of analogue, showed that VHSC had lost.
Every one of those videos with the VHS-C adaptor that I've seen, have the automatic one with the battery.
I've literally never seen one of those in person, they were always manual.
What about Digital 8? Physically different to Mini DV, but compatible data stream.
MPEG was later used in other formats, including consumer and professional ones such as HDV, Betacam SX, MPEG-IMX and I think HDCAM and possibly HDCAM-SR and XDCAM. How did these formats manage to use MPEG as an acquisition format when it would seem to be more suited to being a release one?
I mentioned Digital 8 in the on-screen comments, it was moderately successful and a useful upgrade for people with existing 8mm tapes who wanted DV performance.
True MPEG2 is used with other formats, presumably at higher data rates for better editing. The MPEG2 compression does cause some difficulties with HDV, particularly that dropouts are more obvious on HDV than DV.
Uhh... Colin, you've seemed to have the VHS-C cassette in the case bottom side down. Not top side up, where we see the supply reel with the remaining tape used, and the label right next to it.
Different brands of VHSC tape sit in the box differently. VHSC seemed to suffer from a lack of standardisation in this and other regards.
@@video99couk I see. This lack of standardization proved everything.
Thank you for your educational course on camcorders. I hadn't realized that so many types and formats were sold.
As a side note, in the NTSC system, the recording time difference between Video8 and VHS-C is even bigger, because here, standard VHS-C tapes only can record 30 minutes in SP mode or 1:30 hours in SLP mode, but drastically reducing the audio and video quality. High capacity tapes were availabe later that could store 45 minutes in SP or 2:15 hours in SLP. On the other hand, standard Video8 tapes could record 2 hours in SP and 4 hours in LP, reducing video quelity but not the audio fidelity.
Did it matter so much in the UK with the PAL format?
Yes. VHSC recording times are short, hi-fi sound is an optional extra, the tapes are bulky.
I paid £1000 for a very early DVD-RAM camcorder, a Hitachi DZ-MV100E, in the early 2000s. Think it was reduced from around three grand. Took it to its native Japan where there were quite a few people visibly impressed by the thing.
It worked really well with a Toshiba DVD-RAM/HDD home recorder I had, the recordings worked across both machines.
Unfortunately I dropped it from about three feet onto concrete and it never worked properly again. It was almost certainly just bad alignment (it became super-picky with media and recordings glitched). I don't think such delicate mechanicals lend themselves well to portable use.
I may still have it somewhere and can donate it if you're interested.
Thank you for the video. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I did not catch the time of analog cameras, but I am filling this gap now. And now it's easier, they are very cheap. Judging by the ads on the secondary market in my country, the VHS-C models were more popular.
I will add that later on VHS-C cassettes a stopper was added to the take-up spool. Also from the features of VHS-C there is support for glorious SECAM and the ability to dub a linear audio track, and since VHS-C cameras are larger, manufacturers equipped them with large lenses and CCD.
In this regard, I admire the S-VHS-C light sensitivity of the Panasonic NV-S88 model, and the ability to set the aperture not in arbitrary units, but in f-number.
There are significantly fewer 8mm / hi8 cameras on our secondary market, and the situation is aggravated by the fact that models from the 90s have capacitor leaks, and their restoration is almost pointless, unless it is some kind of top model. And the models of the 2000s already belong to the decline of analog cameras, they were cheaper, it happened in hi8 models that they began to install small matrices with a video8 resolution of 250 lines ...
The situation with VHS-C is interesting, as you know, there is a reduced drum with twice the number of video heads. Ever since LP speed was introduced in camcorders, instead of installing an additional 4 heads with LP gap (24μm), manufacturers have simply installed all 4 LP gap heads, and at SP speed they don't use the full available track width, which means less RF signal, and when rewinding and freeze frame we have wide noise bands. There were exceptions, in the early top model camcorder from JVC there were 8 heads, 4 for each speed, but then there was no Hi-Fi Stereo yet. And with this in mind, you would have to install 12 heads + a flying eraser with a counterweight, and all this on a small drum.
In this regard, the 8mm format clearly wins, there are only 2 heads and a flying eraser with a counterweight, and Hi-Fi sound is already built in. I don’t know how it was in early models, but in the 2000s we see the same situation, separate heads for LP did not appear, instead the main heads have an LP gap and all the same problems with wide noise bands on rewind and pause
I'm not aware of any markets where VHSC outsold 8mm, but it is just about possible I suppose. Audio dub was possible on high end 8mm decks and camcorders, but most didn't support that.
Thanks a great video as always and kind of agree with all said but I think you glossed over just how fragile tape can be. A tape used be a consumer who has no understanding that maintenance is important can easily end up with a recorder that trashed everything that goes in it, tramlines and flats on pinch rollers come to mind.
Tape can indeed be fragile, and I've done a video on how Video8 and miniDV tapes can get damaged by bad treatment. Mini-DVDs were even more fragile!
I detect a little bit of bias in this video... heh. You didn't go over cost of actually owning and using the two systems, including blank tapes etc. And of course a degausser will erase the VHS... that was the point. Metal tape erasers were a totally different thing. And I don't think anyone could "accidentally" put their VHS tape through a degaussing...
Since two VHSC tapes would be required for the same running time as a Video8 tape, I think it would be fair to say that Video8 was cheaper to run per hour.
I'm not the only one who has broken VHSC cassettes to bits trying to access to the tape then! Those screws are a nightmare and if you put too much force on it the head strips. Some minidv tapes are a pain too when the manufacturers decided to get rid of the screws and fuse the 2 halves together. Some very cheap VHS cassettes are the same. We're 4 tiny screws really that expensive? Great video Colin as always
Yes, glued miniDV tapes were also a thing, and VHS tapes which included a three-slotted security screw for no good reason.
If you have a broken DV tape (the type with welds instead of screws) it's easy to suck the broken ends from the housing using a short piece of tubing...you have to release the brake and rotate the spools slightly for best results, there are no guides to worry about inside DV and Video 8 housings.
I've opened dozens of those JVC branded VHS-C cassette tapes and it's always down to the tip on your screwdriver. If you use the right one, they come off pretty easy. The MiniDV tapes that are glued together can be easily taken apart with the help of a blade. You don't need anything else.
@@thebreretons I have three MiniDV tapes that have welds instead of screws.
My family went to vhs-c camp back then. The main reason would be compatibility. The quality would be on less priority.
Only if we first realized to use hi-8 as "aquision format", then dubbed it to normal VHS tape(s) as "distribution format" among relatives...
A big duhhhhhh every time I though about that. What a goof...😓
Ive a few miniDV Hd tape that i recorded back in 2008 , How do i get these on to a Disc that can be played but still in 1080i.
@@happyjive2235 I could transfer those to USB stick in HD.
THe 8mm cassette was a great invention that surived considerable amount of time after Video8 was phased out.
Nice mug in the background, though.
I'd love to try these problematic LP tapes on my machine.
Hello. Would you be able to do a video on D-VHS please? In particular how to record onto one using firewire?
I don't support D-VHS. It wasn't really a format, only two machines were sold in the UK and they didn't even work with each others' recordings.
@@video99couk Wow, really? Were these machines able to play PAL?
Just a quick question is there a good or bad brand of video tape or does it not matter?
The answer to that is a bit complicated! There are certain brands to avoid on certain formats. Fuji 8mm tapes can go mouldy. Ampex Umatic and Beta tapes suffer from sticky-shed. Maxell 8mm tapes are hard to reassemble. Some JVC VHSC tapes can't be dismantled. Generally good brands like TDK and Sony are pretty reliable.
For Hi8 I'd avoid the earlier Sony formulations - they tend to shed with age, ruining recordings and clogging video heads. The later ones were better though, and their standard Video8 tapes never had this issue.
Freshly recorded EP video looks acceptable back then considering it triples the video length and no one warns the consumers against using it.
I was pleasantly surprised how reliable Video8 and Digital8 tapes are, I've recently transferred around 50 of our old family tapes with the exact Sony camera my parents used to record me around 20+ years ago, only few Digital8 tapes gave some trouble that was easily solved by cleaning the heads. The picture quality even on the older Video8 tapes that are almost 30 years old is great for what it is, much better than classic VHS. And being able to transfer it directly to raw DV files via firewire without having to mess with capture cards was great too.
Yes, they are more stable than the competing VHSC format.
Ironically you could likewise use many Digital8 (or MiniDV) cameras to convert your VHS(or any other) tapes as well. A number of these cameras have 'passthrough' from the analog AV input socket, converted to digital for the firewire output. It seems to work very well, presumably as at least some cameras were converting an analog signal from the camera sensor anyway.
@@DoubleMonoLR Sadly not in Europe, Sony didn't equip the -E models with AV in, supposedly to get around some tax as that input would make it a VCR.
Hi! Nice video. Do you know how long a 8mm cassette can hold the data one stored?
If stored properly, it should last almost indefinitely. Metal tapes have excellent magnetic retentivitity. Tapes could last longer than players to play them.
@@video99couk Wow great to know that! My dog just chewed my old cassette until the metal tape breaks. I thought all the data had been lost. Will try to reconnect the tape and see if I'm still able to recover the data. Thank you for the answer :)
i never had any cam's at all my mate did have used one's he was with a cam club used to record live bands in reading dad and mate did wedding is the past
alot of the pro deck this was in the 80's just before betacam cam came out
Nice video! I have a 1994 SVHS-C palmcorder with Hi-Fi audio. It shoots pretty good quality video with F1.2 lens and a half-megapixel sensor. The recording can be played on an SVHS VHS machine or on a machine that has SQPB mode, so there is some compatibility, Hi8 cannot be played on anything but Hi8. Well, it can be played on a Digital8 machine. I wish DV cassettes were never created, and we would continue into 21st century with 8-mm tapes.
DVD recorders were completely useless - bad quality, too much fiddling. Same with AVCHD machines that recorded onto Mini-DVD. I never had a camcorder with optical media, I went straight to ones that recorded on SD cards.
But Hi8 became so commonplace that it was pretty much the standard for all enthusiasts for many years. SVHSC sales were tiny in comparison. Some people did buy Hi8 home decks too, like the EV-C2000E and expensive EV-S9000E.
Great info! I’m trying to digitize my family’s home videos from VHSC and some of the audio has flutter like people are talking into a fan, regardless if I play it back in-camera or in a VHS player. Anyone have any idea how to mitigate that?
If two players do the same thing then it's likely a fault on the original recordings. It probably can't be resolved. Just one thing to try though, if your camera has hi-fi sound, it might be a bad hi-fi track so try the linear mono sound track. The player and camera will have a switch to select that.
I rememeber JVC pushing SVHS, even after Panasonic threw in the towel and started producing Mini-DV. They did not sell well. Sony was still selling Hi8 as a base models to their D8 lines for another 5 years. Sony was making all three formats with Mini-DV being aimed at more of the pro-sumer. I don't think VHS was passable by the consumer by the time Hi8 was phased.
My dad had a Chinon VHSC camcorder for many years, and I don't recall it ever going wrong. What was the issue?
Picture quality!
@@video99couk Ah right I get you, yes the picture wasn't fantastic but at the time we had nothing else to compare with it really.
VHS-C is good not bad
I agree 8mm is vastly superior than VHS-C in almost every way but I think it's unfair to call it a 'bodge'. For what it was, it was pretty good. Let's not forget that Sony went through so much complexity and over-engineering to get a camcorder that would record onto Betamax but which wouldn't play the footage back, whereas JVC just made the same format using smaller tapes and hey presto record and playback, and the ability to play back in a home VCR if required. Effectively 8mm tapes were part of Sony's response to losing that particular duel - and in that way should probably not be seen as a rival format to VHS-C in any more way that Betamax should. Sure they were superior in every way to VHS-C but they would have needed to be in order to wrestle the camcorder format war back in their favour. While any 8mm camcorder looks a lot sleeker and appealing than a VHS-C from the same era, the same could also be said of the JVC GR-C1 over any of the Betamovie cameras.
Well I can see some of your points there. The inability to play back on Betamovie was a killer, but to be fair it was the world's first camcorder.
@@video99couk it was indeed and fair play and all. But it's that same logic I think we should apply to VHS-C which is that it was the next stage in camcorder media. Then came 8mm which was the next improvement until the high end formats. It's just the various companies were tied to their respective formats and hence found themselves almost unwittingly in a format war. VHS-C clung on as best it could despite its deficiencies, and to be fair disapeared around the same time as 8mm if memory serves.
Betamax pretty much lost home market by the beginning of 1980s, so Sony bumped it to pro usage creating Betacam, and joined 8-mm consortium to create a format for camcorders. In the end, Sony came out as a winner, conquering pro video market, consumer camcorder market and also joining VHS, while JVC tried to revive VHS several times with W-VHS and D-VHS, but to no avail.
I've always liked Video8 as a format, forums will tell you it's full of dropouts (digitalfaq and the usual suspects detest it) but I'm yet to find any poor Video8 recordings (and by extension Hi8) - usually it's a format that provides nice clean transfers.
Perhaps I get lucky, but I'm yet to really struggle with it - VHS-C on the other hand....
I agree, dropouts are much less of a problem on 8mm than with VHSC. Not to say they never happen, but much less obtrusively on average. I think the VHSC adaptors knocked the tapes about a lot.
thanks for your effort to explain all this
Some of them are on my channel. Thank you. Useful info
I'll let you into a secret then: Next video is going to be about micromv.
Can I ask you a quick question about VHS-C? I have some old VHS-C tapes that plays in like green/White gameboy colours if you know what I mean. Do you know what can be causing this issue?
The machine itself is confirmed OK and it's just the tapes doing this? Sounds odd.
@@video99couk Yeah the VHS-C tapes I have does this, I have tried the tapes in multiple VCRs and it does the same thing. I am gueesing the tapes where recorded with a broken Camcorder.
More than likely a wrong setting in the camcorder that made the recordings. I don't think chroma circuit faults were common with VHS-C camcorders.
1:26 for a second i though it was a panasonic nv a1 like i have, but i was close 😂
VHS-C isn't bad. :D)
and guess what format is used today by the collective majority ??? Smartphone
Can you show us how to properly break open a VHS-C tape?
They're pretty easy to
take apart. There're two or three catches on the sides that you have to release after taking off all the screws. If you forget those catches you can break the cassette housing...
@@josegti84 It's for when the screws cannot be removed.
i didn't realise there were so many formats and quality problems.
I didn't hear you say much about the cost to the public, most camcorders would cost you a kidney from new, and sony wanted all your familys kidneys :-D.
It seems almost imposible to make a new product without someone jumping on the band wagon and making the water muddy.
Certainly early camcorders were expensive, and not even particularly reliable. Deck faults, dried up SM electrolytic capacitors, CCD failures.
Can a minidv tape work on 8mm video cam
No, completely different.
Well, i feel that i''m lucky. My camcorder is mini-DV Panasonic NV-GS400. so i got a best quality video format first, no troubles with VHS-C or Hi8, etc. I also bought the CHEAPEST BUNDLE IN THE WORLD ( 600 rubles = around 10 USD, with that exchange rates) with included 6 mini-DV tapes, good condition at all, AND, ORIGINAL PANASONIC POWER SUPPLY, with means that i can plug my nv-gs400 in power supply, then plug power supply straight to 220V. And this is inportant , 'cause both batteries is dead. first wont charge at all, second charging, but camcorder can work with it, around 4-5 minutes. I dismantled first battery and going to reestablish it. Gonna buy the imax b6 impulse charger. good luck to me
UPD: i can now throw video from mini-DV no through the Firewire caple, cause my Win10 pc don't have this port, i use USB, NV-GS400 shots pictures to SD card, and have a PC CONNECTIN MODE, through USB . progs to get video is Scenlyzer Pro and WinDV. Scenlyzer works better.
You can add Firewire to any Windows 10 desktop but it's not so easy to a laptop. MiniDV camcorders are give-away prices now, hardly anyone wants them any more.
@@video99couk im not sure about which soft i need for firewire controller, or camcorder should appear in file explorer like an usb device or something like that?
great video
Cool 💫
hi got a old mate he loves the lp on vhs i have watched alot of your video's time time he gets used vhs decks in i told him to keep to only some models as you say
about tape line up on the long play as you know by how i am a betacam fan them mate don't under stand betacam they thing the hi -fi is better than beta cam
sorry betacam sound blow away hi if stereo i had the hifi to many drop outs you have go points in this video pleased you made this bob
What a nonsense. VHS-C was a better system when you look at the specs. A higher signal to noise resolution and more natural colors.
8 mm had a better sound quality but that was limited by the standard microphone.
I was a salesman in the 80's and most people preferred the harder and more artificial colors of a 8 mm camcorder.
A big disadvantage is the fact that many 8mm tapes are dropout city because of the metal vaporized tapes and when you're camcorder has broken down its quiet difficult to play them while you can play back your vhs-c tapes in any vhs recorder what you can buy for next to nothing.
I have some old magazines from the 80's and in every test the conclusion was the camera from a 8mm camcorder was sometimes better the playback part was important less then his vhs c counterpart.
No, sorry to disagree, but VHSC generally gave worse results than Video8. Of course results would vary from one model to another, but all the worst camcorders (Amstrad, Chinon) were VHSC. These days I run lots of 8mm and VHSC tapes, and there is no doubt at all that VHSC suffers more dropouts than 8mm. Then of course there is the running time problem with VHSC, it was so short that it may just be unsuitable for events where a tape change is impractical. The ratio of 8mm to VHSC sales, and that VHSC manufacturers such as Sharp moved to 8mm, shows that VHSC lost the battle.
And many brands turned over to vhs-c. Not a very strong argument. As a matter of fact a big player like Philips cancelled the 8 mm project and went to vhs.
Still mad about no 120 min VHS-C tapes?
@@video99couk
back in time, if you were in case you have to shot events that need more than 45 min or 90 min (excluding use of LP mode), you'll not either buy vhsc or 8mm.
full size (s)vhs camcorder with their unbeatable 240 min or even 300 min in standard mode was probabely the better way to go.
then the problem was the battery runtime, always a matter of compromises in this good old analogue world :)
@petertrappel
both vhsc and video8 were around the same resolution capability (around 250 TVL)
i really don't understand what mean "artificial color" or "natural color", both of them on tape used the color under process.
and roughly have the same bandwidth for color.
the only things that could act on coulour apperance was the tube or ccd device, and the way the camcorder did the job with automatic white balance...
I had a Digital8, and I was able to play Hi8 tapes and transfer them off via Firewire -- an undocumented trick of those cameras. I had a Hi8 tape of an old datacenter at NASA I did this way to transfer off. It's at ua-cam.com/video/am60T-p7f1E/v-deo.html
Well it's not really undocumented. It's the reason that those Digital8 players which support analogue playback (not all do), are still quite valuable today.