I think our best play for this turn against Xibalba would have been to magic phase defend the fort he captured this turn rather than the water throne, leaning into the fake army at the water throne and our proposed battle for the throne as likely to make the bats want to scout our script rather than storming. But it would have been very risky; if he'd chosen to storm with 30 Ozelotl, he'd have been able to take the throne absent magic phase reinforcement.
Regarding the Xibalba offer, given everything else that we've already had to surrender, we can't afford to lose that throne and still be in the game. Honestly we're probably out of the running regardless; we really needed economy time at this crucial point in the late midgame and everyone but us is getting it. But I guess it's worth talking specifically about why that throne is critical. With Xibalba not having attack skill in their bless, and us but not them having Alteration 8 for Quickening, the 3 defense skill that it adds to our sacreds from holding that throne is extremely important for our ability to fight Xibalba in a field battle. With Quagmire (-1 att/def for his stuff) plus the water throne plus Quickening, our Ancestor Vessels reach 21 defense skill (17 once the shield is destroyed) vs 12 attack on the Ozelotl; combined with Fog Warriors and some protection buffs, they can tank being in melee with Ozelotl for a while. And meanwhile, the Ozelotl with his bless and Quagmire penalty have 13 defense skill and we have 15 attack skill (18 once blood surge is up), so our sacreds can hit them in melee pretty darn effectively. Move 3 points of defense skill from us to them, and we start to suffer quite badly being in melee with them. And of course this whole calculus assumes we're doing Quickening and they aren't. It's also pretty important against Pan, because once he blinds everyone with Solar Brilliance, those 3 defense skill are very important on our melee matchup with him. Meanwhile it's a lot easier for us to defend the Throne than it would be to retake it in the future; we don't have infrastructure nearby, and having a fort to retreat into when fighting Wailing Winds nations makes a huge difference.
No one is expecting Agartha. Lurking in the shadows, taking cheeky bites here and there, everyone dismissing it as silly antics. Yeah. We're witnessing the birth of the new pantokrator.
A bratty child who (eventually) will be made to go out back to make their own switch, come back inside and kneel on navy beans while getting their hide tanned so badly they'll be emotionally and physically scarred for life, wishing they'd been annihilated by turn 20. That's Agartha. At least their blind wurms are cute, the lil' axolotl lookin' guys.
As for Gath's plans, I clearly laid them out in my previous message - I am waiting for the world situation to change and not drawing much attention, cause I am the largest already But strategically, Vaetti is the best target for me cause it has a bunch of tasty stuff including two thrones (and Silver adepts who are my dream) and Utgard cap
Regarding the big fight with Pan, we made an error in not scripting horror mark; though it wasn't easy to do; as noted in previous comments, we have 3 Golems and only about 3 S2 Celestial Masters total, and need to be very careful with them given that Pan can easily magic duel our Astral mages. But a big part of the play that the casters missed is that most of the cubes were hidden via stealth (a Zotz mage leader); so he planned the attack expecting to fight 6 cubes when in fact it was a few dozen. We also moved in a bunch of extra E2 mages from Pythium to do spells like Marble Warriors that we couldn't afford to risk being gem baited.
I really enjoyed the videos of Demonsthenis on your channel from a while ago, and I'm really glad he's the underdog as it makes it all the easier to root for. What an epic win. I don't remember if Arco won any battles after they were coalition'd, but if they didn't then I think this is the first landslide victory a coalition victim has won? This seems to be the first thing you both recommend for getting out of one.
I have to reply again about "immobility" of Gathian armies. I am pretty sure that only Xibalba is certainly better than me in strategic mobility of armies, for various reasons. Pan has great mobility on mages but his troops are slower At the same time, the problem that Gath has is being essentially cap-centric unlike Pangea.
Coalition: We don't want TC to die so they can help counter balance hyper scaling nations Also Coalition: Our peace terms are so debilitating they would leave a future weakened TC as additional free scaling in the future for said hyper scaling nations This coalition should have died the moment Xibalba joined, and I still think it's a bad venture for Vaettiheim. I get the joy of peacefully waiting for new episodes to show me what happens though. Maybe Vaettiheim gets the space to Illwinter out of this. I kind of wonder if TC's players would have handled the Arco situation better and vice versa. Maybe the key to breaking up this coalition isn't just the Xibalba peace deal Lucid referred to, but maybe to pick the most dangerous vulturing partner from the coalition and threaten to feed them whatever they want and then some (clearly in the minds of some coalition partners based on the Vaettiheim messaging). When the nation is at stake, brinksmanship can certainly be called for. It's a credit to the TC players to handle this as well as they did. I have serious doubts I would have. Would some archers with Black Bows work for helping put down idols?
I think that strategically they should have taken care of never becoming the largest It would have been way harder for Pan to find reasons for this coalition if TC was not the largest player with the highest gem income
@@maven9996 I don't think them being mildly larger is any more of a threat than the rapidly expanding 3 cap Xibalba or the number 1 in income and forts Pan, or the Vaettiheim thinking about Illwinter. Maybe that's just my inexperience though. Of the four, who are the three you'd rather keep in the game and which one would you select to have the most provinces?
@@DarkSideCookies Actually, I liked the "Big 6" situation a lot, I was feeling it was good for me, because everyone among the six had their own reasons to be feared. And TC being the largest was also good for cause it was he and not me that was drawing attention. I am not a part of this coalition partially because I saw no reason to put TC down this hard.
@@maven9996 Diplomatically though you're a natural TC ally despite any fearmongering. Part of that role is to stab this coalition so Pan/Vaetti/Xib don't all gain 5-15 provinces consequence free. I'm Hopeful you make some really worthwhile moves with the time and space allowing this coalition has created. This war is setting Pan/Vaetti/Xib up for future food too in the form of Agartha and Erytheia where I'm not sure you gain much either.
@@DarkSideCookies Of course that is a consideration, but at the same time if one of them gets too large he will be the next target, and my power level will be quite high regardless of how large people become after this war One thing I am trying to avoid is becoming a coalition target myself because that normally won't result in any gains. TC might be fighting like a lion but even if he was not losing land, he is still losing resources. And it is better to avoid this situation for as long as possible
It was a super interesting episode and even more interesting analysis. Thank you both a lot! First of all I am really impressed by TC victory. if he is just lucky enough after that Pan's defeat the whole coalition may fall apart! It's insane how it was actually possible to turn this 5v1 into 3v1 (Ery and Vaetti are out) and then even maybe make it crumble after that victory this turn and I can't see how Xibalba with his tech can conquer the Throne of Water too. So all the coalition is powerless! Amazing! I was betting on TC winning this game and it still may be possible! Then about the best course of actions for all nations in the game... there is none. I mean, for some reason caster decided to overlook Pan-Gath alliance still existing, If we assume that they will never be fighting each other, unless Nexus, GoNB or thronerush happens then ANY nation except Pangea and Gath have no future. This is the critical time, I think, it's either TC + Vaetti + Xibalba + Erythia fighting Gath + Pangea + Agartha (well Erythia may switch sides I dunno) until Pan or Gath are virtually destroyed OR Everyone but Gath and Pan are doomed to lose in this game. Not adressing this alliance existence is a terrible mistake of everyone. Enjoyed this episode throughly, thank you very much again!
It really depends on the nation. Doom stacks are vulnerable to certain things, small squads to others Nation like Gath is naturally more suited for doomstacking than human nations, for example
I think they got eaten by the The Ravenous Swarm, if I saw correctly that was cast by pan (who had no real undead) and there wasn't that much undead on the TC side so the mages likely got handled by it.
They died pretty late in the battle; I can't remember if it was too unlucky Solar Brilliance rolls or Ravenous Swarm; but we did have a decent amount of skellyspam to protect them, so it was a bit unlucky if they got hit by Ravenous Swarm on the last couple turns.
@@golemokrator2920 I agree that a win is a win. Players are doing what they're think is the best way to get ahead. I'm talking purely from a viewer perspective. I'd rather prefer to watch a 2v2 war rather than just seeing one player getting overwhelmed by multiple attacks.
I think our best play for this turn against Xibalba would have been to magic phase defend the fort he captured this turn rather than the water throne, leaning into the fake army at the water throne and our proposed battle for the throne as likely to make the bats want to scout our script rather than storming. But it would have been very risky; if he'd chosen to storm with 30 Ozelotl, he'd have been able to take the throne absent magic phase reinforcement.
Regarding the Xibalba offer, given everything else that we've already had to surrender, we can't afford to lose that throne and still be in the game. Honestly we're probably out of the running regardless; we really needed economy time at this crucial point in the late midgame and everyone but us is getting it.
But I guess it's worth talking specifically about why that throne is critical. With Xibalba not having attack skill in their bless, and us but not them having Alteration 8 for Quickening, the 3 defense skill that it adds to our sacreds from holding that throne is extremely important for our ability to fight Xibalba in a field battle. With Quagmire (-1 att/def for his stuff) plus the water throne plus Quickening, our Ancestor Vessels reach 21 defense skill (17 once the shield is destroyed) vs 12 attack on the Ozelotl; combined with Fog Warriors and some protection buffs, they can tank being in melee with Ozelotl for a while. And meanwhile, the Ozelotl with his bless and Quagmire penalty have 13 defense skill and we have 15 attack skill (18 once blood surge is up), so our sacreds can hit them in melee pretty darn effectively. Move 3 points of defense skill from us to them, and we start to suffer quite badly being in melee with them. And of course this whole calculus assumes we're doing Quickening and they aren't.
It's also pretty important against Pan, because once he blinds everyone with Solar Brilliance, those 3 defense skill are very important on our melee matchup with him.
Meanwhile it's a lot easier for us to defend the Throne than it would be to retake it in the future; we don't have infrastructure nearby, and having a fort to retreat into when fighting Wailing Winds nations makes a huge difference.
i thought quagmire dosemt work on fliers?
The reason why large gathian army moved into the forest north of Arco cap was the XP site
getting army wide 2, or even 3 stars if one has time luxury to do so is quite a boost to every unit for sure!
No one is expecting Agartha.
Lurking in the shadows, taking cheeky bites here and there, everyone dismissing it as silly antics.
Yeah. We're witnessing the birth of the new pantokrator.
A bratty child who (eventually) will be made to go out back to make their own switch, come back inside and kneel on navy beans while getting their hide tanned so badly they'll be emotionally and physically scarred for life, wishing they'd been annihilated by turn 20. That's Agartha. At least their blind wurms are cute, the lil' axolotl lookin' guys.
Pantokrator! More like panty-raider! Lurking in the shadow, dismissed by the girls, biting butt cheeks
As for Gath's plans, I clearly laid them out in my previous message - I am waiting for the world situation to change and not drawing much attention, cause I am the largest already
But strategically, Vaetti is the best target for me cause it has a bunch of tasty stuff including two thrones (and Silver adepts who are my dream) and Utgard cap
Regarding the big fight with Pan, we made an error in not scripting horror mark; though it wasn't easy to do; as noted in previous comments, we have 3 Golems and only about 3 S2 Celestial Masters total, and need to be very careful with them given that Pan can easily magic duel our Astral mages.
But a big part of the play that the casters missed is that most of the cubes were hidden via stealth (a Zotz mage leader); so he planned the attack expecting to fight 6 cubes when in fact it was a few dozen. We also moved in a bunch of extra E2 mages from Pythium to do spells like Marble Warriors that we couldn't afford to risk being gem baited.
I really enjoyed the videos of Demonsthenis on your channel from a while ago, and I'm really glad he's the underdog as it makes it all the easier to root for. What an epic win.
I don't remember if Arco won any battles after they were coalition'd, but if they didn't then I think this is the first landslide victory a coalition victim has won? This seems to be the first thing you both recommend for getting out of one.
The chemistry and analysis just gets better and better keep it up!
I have to reply again about "immobility" of Gathian armies. I am pretty sure that only Xibalba is certainly better than me in strategic mobility of armies, for various reasons. Pan has great mobility on mages but his troops are slower
At the same time, the problem that Gath has is being essentially cap-centric unlike Pangea.
Coalition: We don't want TC to die so they can help counter balance hyper scaling nations
Also Coalition: Our peace terms are so debilitating they would leave a future weakened TC as additional free scaling in the future for said hyper scaling nations
This coalition should have died the moment Xibalba joined, and I still think it's a bad venture for Vaettiheim. I get the joy of peacefully waiting for new episodes to show me what happens though. Maybe Vaettiheim gets the space to Illwinter out of this.
I kind of wonder if TC's players would have handled the Arco situation better and vice versa. Maybe the key to breaking up this coalition isn't just the Xibalba peace deal Lucid referred to, but maybe to pick the most dangerous vulturing partner from the coalition and threaten to feed them whatever they want and then some (clearly in the minds of some coalition partners based on the Vaettiheim messaging). When the nation is at stake, brinksmanship can certainly be called for.
It's a credit to the TC players to handle this as well as they did. I have serious doubts I would have.
Would some archers with Black Bows work for helping put down idols?
I think that strategically they should have taken care of never becoming the largest
It would have been way harder for Pan to find reasons for this coalition if TC was not the largest player with the highest gem income
@@maven9996 I don't think them being mildly larger is any more of a threat than the rapidly expanding 3 cap Xibalba or the number 1 in income and forts Pan, or the Vaettiheim thinking about Illwinter.
Maybe that's just my inexperience though.
Of the four, who are the three you'd rather keep in the game and which one would you select to have the most provinces?
@@DarkSideCookies Actually, I liked the "Big 6" situation a lot, I was feeling it was good for me, because everyone among the six had their own reasons to be feared. And TC being the largest was also good for cause it was he and not me that was drawing attention.
I am not a part of this coalition partially because I saw no reason to put TC down this hard.
@@maven9996 Diplomatically though you're a natural TC ally despite any fearmongering. Part of that role is to stab this coalition so Pan/Vaetti/Xib don't all gain 5-15 provinces consequence free.
I'm Hopeful you make some really worthwhile moves with the time and space allowing this coalition has created.
This war is setting Pan/Vaetti/Xib up for future food too in the form of Agartha and Erytheia where I'm not sure you gain much either.
@@DarkSideCookies Of course that is a consideration, but at the same time if one of them gets too large he will be the next target, and my power level will be quite high regardless of how large people become after this war
One thing I am trying to avoid is becoming a coalition target myself because that normally won't result in any gains. TC might be fighting like a lion but even if he was not losing land, he is still losing resources. And it is better to avoid this situation for as long as possible
It was a super interesting episode and even more interesting analysis. Thank you both a lot!
First of all I am really impressed by TC victory. if he is just lucky enough after that Pan's defeat the whole coalition may fall apart! It's insane how it was actually possible to turn this 5v1 into 3v1 (Ery and Vaetti are out) and then even maybe make it crumble after that victory this turn and I can't see how Xibalba with his tech can conquer the Throne of Water too. So all the coalition is powerless! Amazing! I was betting on TC winning this game and it still may be possible!
Then about the best course of actions for all nations in the game... there is none. I mean, for some reason caster decided to overlook Pan-Gath alliance still existing, If we assume that they will never be fighting each other, unless Nexus, GoNB or thronerush happens then ANY nation except Pangea and Gath have no future.
This is the critical time, I think, it's either TC + Vaetti + Xibalba + Erythia fighting Gath + Pangea + Agartha (well Erythia may switch sides I dunno) until Pan or Gath are virtually destroyed OR Everyone but Gath and Pan are doomed to lose in this game.
Not adressing this alliance existence is a terrible mistake of everyone.
Enjoyed this episode throughly, thank you very much again!
best move in general is kill TC, saber rattle killing tc, and if anyone backs out/gets bought off/takes a big loss turn on them.
Is it generally better to let a doom stack go taking one province at a time while attacking their other territory with small raiders?
It really depends on the nation. Doom stacks are vulnerable to certain things, small squads to others
Nation like Gath is naturally more suited for doomstacking than human nations, for example
Pan got cubed fair and square lmao
Did those 2 liches get soul slain tho? That would hurt
I think they got eaten by the The Ravenous Swarm, if I saw correctly that was cast by pan (who had no real undead) and there wasn't that much undead on the TC side so the mages likely got handled by it.
They died pretty late in the battle; I can't remember if it was too unlucky Solar Brilliance rolls or Ravenous Swarm; but we did have a decent amount of skellyspam to protect them, so it was a bit unlucky if they got hit by Ravenous Swarm on the last couple turns.
Ngl, I don't enjoy this dogpiling meta that emerged in this game.
You may not like it, but it's a reality for a long time already.
And 2v1 is still a dogpile technically, especially in earlygame.
@@golemokrator2920 I agree that a win is a win. Players are doing what they're think is the best way to get ahead. I'm talking purely from a viewer perspective. I'd rather prefer to watch a 2v2 war rather than just seeing one player getting overwhelmed by multiple attacks.