Thanks for watching everyone! Counters are a bit weird to try and rank because realistically, a lot of them would be pretty close together in a list of all Ultimate's moves, but gave it my best shot. Let me know how your list would stack up! -Main channel: ua-cam.com/users/mockrocktv -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
Greninja’s is way too low. You can counter really weak moves to kill consistently at semi-high perecents. Diagonal down sends at a disgusting angle, and is strong, and you can use it when backed into a corner to send behind you. Upwards counter kills early, and downward counter is very strong making it very good for characters covering their recovery with hit boxes when above the ledge as well as for just spiking recoveries. It is way better than fire emblem characters’ counters
I agree with everything on this list except for sephiroth in addition to the fact it breaks, and is subject to reflectors and things like pocket there is actually a window in between the wall animation and the projectile. You spoke alot on consistency that window makes the counter really bad in my opinion. There are 3 opportunities to punish the counter for simply being out. 1. If the opponent goes for a grab 2. 2 if they hit the window when counter is just not active. (10 frames btw) 3. If they wait it out with shield. I'm not saying its garbage just not S tier. Like Mid A to high B. Ike got moved out of b tier for having an extra frame and more damage but sephiroth has actual holes but good damage and stays in S?
Bayonetta counter is way worse than it seems. It's basically a hard read and you might as well smash attack. Comes out so slow that it's impossible to use in disadvantage, and it doesn't last very long. Benefit is it has range against projectiles. Would put in C
I agree as a greninja main I only use it offstage or if I know for sure that the opponent is gonna throw out a move. Plus I think the directional input aspect of it is really good (especially diagonal down) and no one really expects the greninja counter for some reason.
As a greninja main I can confirm counter is both busted but also terrible. On moves that shift opponents hurtbox a lot (snake dash attack for example) it’s SUPER inconsistent and will whiff regardless of the direction. It’s offstage game is okay but the best way to counter offstage is diagonally down and depending on how close greninja is to the stage, the game will glitch and spawn greninja into the stage and fixes itself by spawning him back on the ledge. Very inconsistent and precise but upwards counter (the strongest variant) kills most characters ~120% so it’s pretty dumb in that aspect
@@andrew_gutz the thing with the hurt box appearing in the stage and the fixing itself is only for horizontal counter when the opponent is below the ledge
It’s a weird move, it has high enough knockback that it’s a kill move at high percents if you angle it right but you could also just whiff. Fun to use tho
I was shocked to see Shulks' Vision make it to B-tier. That thing is extremely unreliable, particularly in the air. When I saw Sora's counter, I wished Shulk's was programmed that way.
Yeah Shulk’s counter is trash. I still remember that tweet from Dabuz where he smash attacked shulk, he countered and it still hit him. It’s so unreliable, maybe even more than brawler
I think it might be in B tier because of how you can use the monado arts with it. I might be wrong, but buster i think gives it a higher damage multiplier, lower knockback, smash gives it lower damage, but higher knockback. Also, the fact that you can control which direction it can send at helps too. Not that I think the counter is good, because I think it's really bad. But i guess you can kinda understand why it's in B tier??? Also someone correct me if i'm wrong, not really an expert on shulk
I play Shulk and I find landing a successful counter with Smash or Buster to be super useful for taking out stocks or getting the opponent to a good kill percentage, but I'm not an expert on Smash at all and I'm honestly not very good at the game compared to most, so I can see why it's not reliable in high level play.
@@vmaru3951 The thing is that those Arts make Shulk extremely vulnerable if Vision doesn't activate, because the move has a horrendous cooldown period. Don't get me wrong, it's a moderately strong move (definitely weaker than its Smash4 counterpart, however), and elsewhere Mockrock dislikes the 'strong but less reliable' counters. I don't mind the cooldown period; I mind that the counter misses about half the time. Just let it connect properly. Situationally, the move can be useful, but it's very highrisk.
While Brawler's counter has a lot of pitiful aspects, at the very least, it is at the very least one of the most satisfying ones to actually land, with its animation giving off an energy similar to Doc's back throw
you can also reverse k rool's counter if the opponent is really close to you - i love when i counter a falcon knee offstage and send them flying backwards towards the blastzone
I actually kinda wanted to see kirby with peach hat on this tier list, specially after seeing the kicks which i would not consider counters, bc i remember sakurai mentioning how when kirby inhales a character, the borrowed move does more damage than the original, and also bc of the general nature of kirby's kit, how much use can he give it, at the very least on the peach matchup, i think it would have been an interesting thing to analyze
2 things about k Rool counter that wasn’t mentioned: 1: It is reversible, though it can be hard to land, it is really good for taking a stock if you’re being ledgeguarded 2: It has a hitbox even when reflecting, this means that, if you’re hit by a projectile at close range, you hit them with a reflect *as well as* the counter attack, this does devastating damage
I kinda wish Revenge boosted movement speed in addition to attack power (obviously less of a boost). Being able to turn projectiles into attack buffs is great but it doesn’t actually help me get any closer. Plus unlike smash4 Cloud limit you wouldn’t really be able abuse the movement buff as it would go away immediately after hitting someone once. Just a thought
Trying to level out the traits will remove the taste of any character, including incineroar, so doing that is understandably not a good idea. What I would think of is to punish running away from incineroar in some way, such as when you revenge a projectile, not only will it give incineroar extra power, but the owner of the projectile will be hit by a flaming pillar summoned from below, which sends them upward and towards incineroar. This puts the opponent in a juggling situation, something that incineroar is very potent for.
@@williammin8340 As far as I understand, Revenge is supposed to represent the move in the Pokemon games. I know Double Team and Substitute also work very differently but that idea is a bit too out there. Just buffing his movement overall while Revenge buff lasts would make more sense in my opinion.
@@rafaelbordoni516 revenge in Pokémon is nothing like in smash. It’s a pretty weak move that always goes last (with some exceptions), but deals double damage if the user was hit by the target during that turn. If anything, a flame pillar hitting the target would be more accurate to Pokémon, as it’s an attacking move, not a status move, although Revenge is normally a Fighting type move, not a Fire type move, but they gave fire effects to Cross Chop (Up B) so it’s fine. (Also off topic but does anyone else think that it’s weird that 3 Pokémon have Counters, but none of them use the move Counter for it?)
I have to hard, hard disagree with Greninja being C. When used in the context of the character- a slippery mixup combo machine, the counter is quite essential. Bonus because of how people know of gren's shitty oos game- people tend to try pressuring you a lot in shield, and the counter represents a real danger for suddenly switching the pace and punishing them. Also, this is a rather little known fact but greninja's substitute doll represents a lot of bonus utility. If you know how to manipulate it you can move the doll near the ledge and give yourself a 20+ frame window to 2frame with downsmash, instead of the usual 2 frames. Or place it on a platform to extend upsmash's active hitbox to 40+ frames. Seriously there's an apolotion video that covers the use of sub doll, it's woefully underrated. Shulk needs to go below C tier. How on earth it can be ranked above greninja, I have no idea. Vision is extremely inconsistent and whiffs more often than it hits, which to me is a death knell for counters which are already unreliable by nature.
You don’t know anything about shulk’s counter. It’s crazy how everyone in the comment is low balling it. I main shulk and I can tell you it’s very good and useful
I agree with everything but you didn't mention something... Substitute kills most of the roster at the early 100% if you angle it strait up, so if you're struggling to find a kill, bait an attack and counter it, there's so much utility to the move feels more like an A than a C if you ask me
Agreed, Greninja's counter isn't the best in the game but it's solid at what it does and provides some much needed utility for the character. Plus at 100% launching the opponent straight up with the counter is a guaranteed kill, which is higher than any kill throw I believe. Not as reliable to land as a throw obviously but definitely something to consider, it can be quite scary.
One more thing I’d say in the favor of Sora’s counter is that, because of his S-tier recovery, you can use his counter literally anywhere offstage whenever you like, and still recover.
Also, important note - Sephiroth's counter can be b-reversed, meaning that as long as you're moving, you can cover both sides with your counter. As such, the directional component only really matters for the space above and below Sephiroth.
Soras counter is so satisfying to use, I literally just used it today on a banjo wonderwing and KO’d on stage. the knockback is pretty good and sends them pretty far horizontally. completely stopping their move and whacking them w a giant oversized key is also visually pleasant
my only issue is i think u underrated greninja's counter. Its endlag really doesnt matter considering how far he travels, it still kills at high percent or on strong moves, and if it doesnt, it combos or puts the opponent in perfect positions to be abused by greninja's offstage and juggling game. It's such a flexible move that i think it deserves a higher spot
Bruh how does the endlag not matters considering how far it travels lmao. Like, you will only travel if you land the move, and if you don't, you will be stuck on a pitfull 70 frames of lag. It's kill power is really bad compared to other counters and I'm not sure those combos are true at all. I think it's c tier placement is well deserved.
One more thing about Gut Check is that the melee counter is separate from the reflected projectile. This means that if you Gut Check a charge shot or similar move at point blank range, the combined reflected charge shot and counter will do borderline Incineroar levels of damage.
1. half focus attack also crumples, but it does high shield damage instead of ignoring shields 2. You missed a few things about counter throw. The fact it sends behind you is much more impactful than it might seem, their feet are completely vulnerable, they become marth in the air, and it ignores projectiles
Focus 2 is plus on shield and you can realistically get every punish you’d get with 3 as long as you fadc afterward. Short hop sour fair and down air both work fine, and realistically that’s the only thing you should be going for other than shoryuken at kill percents.
@@WarrenValion I'd argue that dishonor goes to Ike's. Brawler's has its faults, but at least he's not screwed 100% of the time when he misses. Also, Counter Throw has a bigger grabbox in the air, so it whiffs way less.
I'm just assuming people who bitch about Sora getting a counter never played KH1. It's a fundamental ability throughout the entire game. Just be happy they didn't add Strike Raid. 4 ranged keyblade throws followed by one super throw, where he's rooted in space but completely invulnerable.
If Ike’s counter sent out a projectile like Ragnell is supposed to be able to I think that would make it more unique and give Ike a way to handle projectiles
My favorite counter is Shulk, mainly because at a certain point I know my opponent is gonna die, the animation is delayed to make the payoff JUST right, plus it looks really cool. Ooh and also Smash art having the potential to kill my opponent at like 20%
Some fun facts about King K. Rool's counter that weren't mentioned in the video but I feel are worth pointing out: 1. If you reflect a projectile with it, the counter hitbox is STILL ACTIVE, and both of them can stack at close range, leading to a hypothetical 3x multiplier on a reflected projectile. This sets it apart from the other counter/reflector hybrids. 2. He has full-body intangibility from frame 4-15 during its startup, allowing him to narrowly avoid certain attacks or grabs under the right circumstances. 3. It's the only counter in the game (to my knowledge) that can be turned around manually.
The thing with Peach's counter is that no matter which move you counter, it always deals a solid 26% and knockback that kills at around 100%, no matter how weak the move was That means you're almost guaranteed to edgeguard and kill many predictable-recovery characters at low percentages, it deserves to be at least in A Tier
HOO BABY was just watching a few old mockrock vids for reference on how to structure writing abt some guilty gear ideas I’m working on and just came from the counter vid, good timing my dude :)
As someone who used to use mii sword fighter one of the main reasons the counter isn’t preferred is because it’s either that or a reflector which works very similar to Mario’s cape which can still gimp some opponents recovery’s better than the counter can but also helps in heavy projectile based match up and when your as slow as mii sword fighter is you’ll take what you can get
Sora’s counter can still counter things when getting hit from behind as long as the attack hit box is big/long enough. For example pyra forward smash and sephiroth forward smash
I would argue that, while yes, one of the most important aspect of a counter is to be able to catch recoveries, the ones that don't do that very well can actually be used differently. For instance you say that Corrin's counter is not great for catching recoveries, but it is actually very good at preventing edge guards when you are recovering (specially when you are going high) this counter allows you to punish high edgeguards and kill out of the top for that. At the same time, while you wouldn't want to juggle your opponent with the counter, it is a great juggle startup, and I would argue that it was designed to be used in the air most of the time, not grounded, which makes sense since this way it will kill very early. I am not saying that Corrin's counter should go in S or A tier, but it can definitely be a C or maybe low B tier if you use it properly.
@@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764 What makes Corrin unique is that he has pretty good ranged attacks, while having a cool rabid jab. He's like the perfect middle ground between Marth and Robin.
@@orangeslash1667 I would argue that his range is not that impressive nowadays considering how ultimate introduce many fighters that surpass him in that aspect, but what keep him from going higher is probably his mobility, being a bit mediocre which is a shame cause his combos could increase if he has more mobility
@@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764 What do you mean he doesn't have good range???? Corrin forward smash has more reach than most fighters, expect for maybe Sephiroh or the Belmonts.
With Mii Swordfighter, I've been using Reversal Slash due to it being somewhat of a worse Mario Cape and using it to deny recoveries in tandem with Chakram because I've found Mii Swordfighter's Aerial Down Air to sometimes put me in a worse spot than who I'm hitting.
Mii Brawler's counter is one of my favorite moves in the game. It's really bad, but I just love it. The actual counter being a grab and all is really cool, and the sound effect is super satisfying. Can't argue with your placement, though, it sucks as an actual counter!
Yeah, the first time I ever saw Mii Brawler's counter was me using it against a Falcon Punch when I was playing with friends, and I seriously was not prepared for the suplex that launched them backwards at 500mph.
There's also the fact that it's the only counter (aside from sora's) that works on wonderwing. Due to it being a grab, and wonderwing explicitly being coded to lose to grabs, it really messes that move up.
An important thing about peaches counter is that its a projectile, so hitting it with a move that reflects, like shine, (and the set damage helps your enemies here) they will counter-counter you
Random fact: K.Rool's Gut check actually has frame 4 intangibility that last for like 11 frames (F15). This means that - if timed right - you can actually get "hit" from above and the counter will work. I have even seen that with Bowser's Dair, ang KirbyKid took some games after reversing the counter (because that's another thing you can do, tho it doesn't work if opponent's hurtbox isn't inside of you).
Strongly agree with moving Ike's counter down to C. I would put it at the bottom of C, bordering on F. In addition to being ridiculously slow (literally triple the startup of the fastest counters) the hitbox whiffs constantly when used in the air. The speed and accuracy problems make it surprisingly difficult to use offstage as an edgeguarding tool, even against recoveries that can be countered. I would also move Shulk down to C for accuracy problems. The directional dash is nice when grounded, but in the air the move whiffs against loads of enemies slightly above or below Shulk.
I seriously disagree with greninja’s placement. It has one of the best uses in edguarding with the diagonally down angle, which means you can live afterwards. There is also serious cheese you can do with the substitute itself by extending hitboxes for easy 2 frames.
Sora has brief intangibility at the very start of his counter which makes attacks go through him and hit the keyblade making the counter successful. Good luck getting that off consistently tho. Its actually pretty good for sweeping attacks against him while he is in the air as they will make it to the keyblade even faster.
9:46 I would personally put it at an A because the Monado arts, with buster I've done like 40-50% with one counter and with smash I've been able to kill in between 40-60% (not counting the damage from the counter)
8:40 Ken’s Focus Attack is actually a punch attack even though the animation explicitly shows him kicking. Using a Foot Attack⬆️ Spirit won’t boost Ken Focus Attack, but Fist Attack⬆️ does. They literally Copy/Pasted Ryu’s Down Special data and forgot to change the effect from punch to kick.
Understandable, it's a common occurrence. Many characters revert to their smash 4 idle animation when holding items, and many echo fighters and clones with unique animations, the animations changes back to the original character's in some situations. Tldr there's a lot of copy pasting everywhere
As samus, nothing makes you sweat more than incineroar countering your charge shot, bc you KNOW that if he manages to get a hit on you, you'll be in a world of pain.
@@zGoldenHawk Well, he struggles hard against characters like Belmonts. He's not really that viable when it comes to those projectile characters, because you have to get in close with your slow movement (and trust me, it's a pain in the ass as an Incin main to get close to them). A slight movement speed buff would make Incineroar more viable than where he is, and would help him alot
Greninja's counter lacks some of the conventional strength you associate with a counter, but it has some of the best utility of any counter IMO. While countering strong attacks doesn't net as much reward as usual, the fixed knockback means that you can kill in situations where any other counter will not, such as a simple jab or multi-hit move. That said, up-angled counter is still pretty strong, killing most characters around 110-120 percent. There's also counter's use in aiding recovery by gaining a huge vertical boost which aids in timing recovery mixups. It may be a bit slow and has one of the one of the largest punish windows if missed, but the overall utility of this counter should not be understated.
For greninja the substitute itself actually has a good amount of utility since it can block projectiles and be tilted to face upward to block even more projectiles so I would personally put it in B
Fun strange Mii Brawler counter fact: Unless it has changed, it is apparently grab immune for its entre duration, endlag included. Last time I experienced this was 2019 at LTC7, so this may have been patched. Situation (repeatedly) was Alolan Whip to punish counter only to have it push Mii Brawler along the ground. I have not tested it since then and it doesn't really come up often due to lack of character popularity.
14:00 most likely because people use power thrust more, while blade counter is great and fairly consistent for a counter, power thrust is great and fairly consistent in general
I’ve actually not had much trouble with Ike so far. I don’t really play Nintendo games often but I play smash with my roommate and I’ve played Lucina against his kirby for years and always lost but I got Ike and a combination of his up b, side b, and counter really make for a deadly, if not annoying enemy. We’ve found that Ike’s counter window also lasts really long. Maybe that has to do with the laggy animation, maybe not.
As a disgruntled Ike player I'd argue that Ike's counter is bad enough to be a contender for F tier. Besides being the slowest, and formerly the laggiest counter in the game before Sephiroth came along, the supposed power that is meant to balance it is only felt if you catch a powerful hit with it - it still has the weakest 1.2x counter multiplier possible despite Roy and Chrom receiving the 1.35x multiplier. Even Palutena has 1.3x on her less powerful double-duty counter. Furthermore, not only did the counter portion both lose active frames and get more endlag tacked on than other counters coming from Smash 4, they even made the actual ATTACK laggier, making it dangerous to use to block recoveries on both success and failure, as Ike falls considerably farther during the swing animation than other counters, including those of faster fallers Roy and Chrom, and he is already not a character who's very comfortable trying to recover from below. Its sole strength was a decent ability to kill offstage off of even weak hits, but there are now a slew of counters capable of doing that without nearly as much risk.
Even though Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is kinda crap, it's always in my main Mii Brawler moveset because it's strong and STYLISH! It's so cool-looking when it connects!
Fun fact about ike in the very specific situation where ike uair gets countered by incin and then ike counters incin revenge fair then incin just fucking dies at any percent and it is so funny
I should mention Mii Brawler's counter counts as a grab which can also counter Wonderwing (life as a Banjo main is hard) but that doesn't make his counter better or Sora's less special imo
As a Mii Brawler Main I could confirm that Counter Throw is the worst counter in the game, easily his worst down special. Just pick Feint Jump if you care about results or Head on Assault if you feel a bit crazy.
I value this video, and enjoyed watching 😀 But I only agree with three choices 🤗 Thanks for making it though! It was useful to form my own opinions and make my own teir list
ok so minor gripe with corrin counter because its up ward angle makes it especially great for landing on stage (something counters are supposed to be used for)
I’m a link player, and I personally discovered why Sora’s reflective counter actually does something. I got hit by my own boomerang after it went through him.
Some other things to note about bayos witch time. Hit boxes are still active, meaning moves will clank and if it’s a multi hit, you will get hit the moment witch time ends. And about bat within, in the air when doing witch time and triggering it, you can’t influence the direction fall, you also can’t move on the ground when triggering it during witch time either meaning you will be hit by multi hits again.
"Incineroar mains lean on [Revenge] maybe more than any other counter in the game, and for good reason" revenge my beloved revenge is the only reason incin does halfway as decently as he does, that move defines his MU spread. it's kinda unreal lmao
Mii Brawler counter is the worst if your character is a zoner or projectile fighter. Any non projectile fighter, especially heavies, can die at 20% with almost no window to punish unless you grab. It is extremely inconsistent on different characters but against some others is extremely busted (Yeah I'm a Ganon main 😭)
Man how the mighty have fallen. Corrin's counter used to be utterly devastating in Smash 4. They went WAY overboard when they nerfed all of her specials.
Putting Corrins at the bottom is ridiculous. Corrins actually can hover mid air and interrupt combos. As a Mario and DK player countless times I’ve don’t an up air combo and they spam counter and I die at 30% over the top, meanwhile the other FE characters don’t have that feature
As an Ike main I’d say C tier makes me kinda sad but I’m forced to admit that hitting it depends on getting some pretty sick reads, so I’m ok with it. Still, to me, nothing beats the feeling of getting that counter and seeing my opponent fly offstage, maybe precisely because I have to get the read for that to work
When it comes to focus, don't know if you knew this but focus can lead to both shoto's being super plus on block when descending and allows both of them to get guaranteed shield breaks if done right. Of course, that is using them offensively not defensively but if you ever talk about those moves again I think it's worth noting
I think Corrins counter is pretty good, it has pretty good range so if you play in team battle and the both opponents are attacking you from 2 different sides you could easily hit them both, so for me I would at least put it in B tier but that’s just because I play a ton of team battles
Ryu/Ken's Focus Attack does not need to be fully charged to activate the crumple state. You're able to crumple with Stage 2 (indicated by the first yellow flash). Stage 3 only crumples longer, but Stage 2 is still great since you can FADC out of Stage 2 after hit to kill confirm/hard combo from it
Sora's counter isnt consistent, when someone is on stage and someone outstage fails most of the time. And I don't agree with Corrrin his B. Also Sephiroth's counter power up when has one wing.
Yeah I don't agree with Corrin's counter either. It is meant to be used in the air where it kills very early. I've caught many Kirby stone with it and they usually panic and release the move instead of staying invincible, and the surge just kills them up the top. The same when as Corrin you are recovering high for some reason and the opponent tries to edgeguard and you just counter them and it kills them or at least leave them in a juggling situation for you.
@@buccob What makes Corrin unique is that he has pretty good ranged attacks, while having a cool rabid jab. He's like the perfect middle ground between Marth and Robin.
I agree with the Brawler counter, but I'll never forget the time I took all 3 stocks off my friend by countering Byleth's axe with it. It was literally a 1 hit kill.
You gave sora S tier just for edge guarding? Based off that logic then lucario deserves at least an A he teleports to your targets location. And it’s really consistent off stage. Even with low aura it kills almost every time off stage cause you can chose the direction and get a stage spike everytime. He’s just not played a lot so people don’t know that.
Something to consider about Lucario's counter is that it tracks at a great distance, is invincible for a very long time, and is safe on shield with aura, and even without aura is still safe against most of the cast. Since you can choose the direction, what this means is as Lucario, if you can counter something guaranteed, you should. His counter is the ultimate anti-slow-moving projectile move. Since it scales with aura and not off the projectile it's countering, it can also kill regardless of the strength of the projectile. Some of the best moves in the game are almost completely invalidated. Pikachu and Pichu thunderjolt are the most notable. Using those against Lucario is a deathwish. The amount of Pikachu's I've killed at 60 because they tried to use their neutral-skip is too damn high. Other notable moves it counters is Olimar's pikmin toss (free tracking teleport kill move on command), the Links' boomerangs, PacMan Hydrant (iirc?), and many more. If a projectile is reactable, it is a liability against Lucario because of this move. Because of the endlag it's not a YOLO counter, but it's one of the best anti-projectile moves in the game. I mean you can use it as a YOLO counter, and because it scales off aura you can kill a megaman by countering a pellet. But its real strength is in countering projectiles.
Have to hard disagree with incineroar. A lot of projectile reliant characters can just follow up on you while you're in the boosting animation and start a combo on you, and if they happen to do it with grab, you givem up neutral for nothing. Then, if you're too far away for them to do that, they can just pop you with a second projectile while you're in the animation. God only knows how many stocks ive lost to charge shot after revenging a missile from over halfway across the stage. Plus, if you're counterjng a projectile, you still have all the space to close before you can use the revenge, and against someone more mobile, the revenge timer can totally just wear out before you get to use it. It's a great counter, but the anti-projectile functionality is a lot better on paper than in practice.
^ this I bait my local Incin with lvl 1 fireball with Hero. I follow up with a grab and forward throw so I get better stage positioning to open up Menu.
I have some gripes with witch times placement tbh. now, when compared to other counters, which are overall bad moves imo, it's not the worst, but is also not one of the better ones. First off, the staling of the move is WAY more than shulks, you only need to use it twice to get to the maximum stale, but that doesn't really matter considering that even only one time using the move is usually enough to not guarantee follow ups at low percents. Combined with the fact that it stales even if you hit it during the start up (which btw doesn't match the animation, so you could times where it looks like the counter should've activated but it doesn't), and that it has 43 frames of end lag, whiffs against most multihits if staled, extends the duration of hitboxes which is EXTREMELY bad when you take into consideration the insanely low priority of bayo's smash attack, the risk far outweighs the reward, and like you said, consistency is very important for counters.
I see professional Bayo's use witchtime all the time. WAAAYY more than the characters below in tiers use thiers. In my opinion that tells you something. It is one of Bayo's reliable kill set-ups, where she can struggle to kill.
@@RubixNinja it shouldn't have been nerfed so bad though, it's legit one of her only ways to kill at decent percent. You could even leave wt alone and just give her smashes slightly better priority and it would be a game changer.
One fun fact about the Croci boi: as you all know he can turn around when hit, if he does this in the air he can launch the opponent in the direction he moved, so if you're close to the blast zone you can try catching an opponent attack and get an (in most cases) easy kill
Shulk's damage mutiplier isn't all that great, but the dash forward also does more than just change direction, it increases the knockback growth to stupid levels when combined with the damage multiplier in exchange for being more situational to use, and also the move has a sweetspot mechanic like most of his moves, with the actual sword being stronger than the beam. Also, the move's kinda known as "the counter you only use on the ground" among Shulk players bc its aerial version is infinitely worse than the ground version. Definitely more unique and quirky than it looks on surface level, and takes more thought from the player (especially when combined with arts) on how to use it than a simple "press button, counter attack"
Forgot about that banger intro, gosh I love that, always have. Good to hear and see it again. Also ngl didn’t realize you could select launch with Shulk counter-or if I did it’s just not a memorable aspect. Also maybe hot take but I think Substitute is one of the best counters. Maybe that’s a little bit biased but I think it’s just a very high utility counter, and lasts for a solid amount of time. From all my playing of Greninja I just feel like there’s so many use cases. Also Sora counter just straight up beats Wonderwing? Dang.
Dang, you did Greninja's counter dirty -Fixed knockback scaling means that if you don't kill off the counter, you can probably combo off of it into a kill -the substitute that spawns can be used to extend hitboxes, in some cases adding 10+ active frames to attacks with very few active frames -Greninja is completely intangible during the attack phase of Substitute, meaning it can be used as a maneuvering option if an attack isn't as viable of a choice -You can pick any direction, meaning you can kill that much quicker from anywhere on the stage, or even use it to recover from a really bad position off stage, two things I felt you *drastically* downplayed
I’ve been loving these tier lists. You put a ton of insight and work into them and you clearly have a ton of knowledge of this game. Great second channel!
If I remember. Shulk's counter would hit opponents even if they were shielding and was stronger... back in Smash 4 They fucked it up even worse in Ultimate. His arts are also just riskier than before.
My only disagreement is Sephiroth. His counter is literally free parry food and is the only one whose counter can just straight up kill him. A tier at most.
I swear, DLC has just been a sliding scale of counter powercreep. Buff my mans Ike. Why does he have a frame 9 counter with 73 frames of endlag and a tiny forward hitbox and it isn't even the strongest counter to make up for it. What the fuck.
Honestly, as good as Rebel's Guard and the Karns are, I'd say Revenge is the best counter, if Inceniroar didn't have it, he wouldn't be playable at all, Joker's Karns are a nice bonus, but definitely not needed, if revenge was on any other character, they'd be incredibly broken
Corrin's entire kit is designed for walling and juggling, so a counter that blasts an opponent upwards into the range of his monstrous up air or up b isn't a bad counter, and especially not for a character that wants opponents above him. It will still definitely kill off the top if Corrin successfully counters in the air, making it a little risky to attempt any juggling shenanigans against him since he can either outright kill or quickly turn the tide and start counter-juggling you back. Also??? That goddamn hitbox on it is fuckoff HUGE??? That thing can be triggered from miles away and still hit EVEN IF THEY'RE BELOW PLATFORMS because it's so huge. It's a huge RIP to any light characters too since it kills of the top instead of the side, lighter characters get hit way harder by Counter Surge than a normal counter. I've killed Pikas off the top just for countering stray thunderjolts at like 80-90%. Yeah, it sucks that it's not as strong as it used to be, but to say that it's outright garbage is .... no. Hard disagree. I would say it's at least C-B tier with the rest of the FE characters. It's got different utility than the rest of the FE characters, but it isn't bad. To say Counter Surge is worse than Peach's or Ike's counter laughable imo. Source: am Corrin main.
![[SSBU] Smash's Worst Counter](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wfnEG2FvbZg/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching everyone! Counters are a bit weird to try and rank because realistically, a lot of them would be pretty close together in a list of all Ultimate's moves, but gave it my best shot. Let me know how your list would stack up!
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Greninja’s is way too low. You can counter really weak moves to kill consistently at semi-high perecents. Diagonal down sends at a disgusting angle, and is strong, and you can use it when backed into a corner to send behind you. Upwards counter kills early, and downward counter is very strong making it very good for characters covering their recovery with hit boxes when above the ledge as well as for just spiking recoveries. It is way better than fire emblem characters’ counters
@@seamusflannery3374 i was thinking the same thing
I agree with everything on this list except for sephiroth in addition to the fact it breaks, and is subject to reflectors and things like pocket there is actually a window in between the wall animation and the projectile. You spoke alot on consistency that window makes the counter really bad in my opinion.
There are 3 opportunities to punish the counter for simply being out.
1. If the opponent goes for a grab
2. 2 if they hit the window when counter is just not active. (10 frames btw)
3. If they wait it out with shield.
I'm not saying its garbage just not S tier. Like Mid A to high B. Ike got moved out of b tier for having an extra frame and more damage but sephiroth has actual holes but good damage and stays in S?
@@crueljoyd i suck so i think its s
Bayonetta counter is way worse than it seems. It's basically a hard read and you might as well smash attack. Comes out so slow that it's impossible to use in disadvantage, and it doesn't last very long. Benefit is it has range against projectiles. Would put in C
The funniest thing about Sora’s counter to me is that it’s one of the only counters (maybe the only counter) that can’t hit Plant’s Down B at range.
And yet plant side B is one of the only projectiles Sora can effectively reflect.
Mii sword figther is also unable to hit Piranha plant's down b
@@diegovaldez927 It can. Plant's head has a hurtbox, so it can be grabbed. It is, however, really inconsistent.
@@CaptainDCap I sad sword figther, not brawler
Calm down ladies
"I'm not putting every move with super armor on here"
Kazuya: "damn"
Fun Fact: In Brawl I thought Marth and Ike just had down specials that did nothing.
you’re not the only one, I thought it was a taunt
Same, but in Smash 4.
I figured it out somewhat quickly, and Ultimate was my 1st one.
In brawl I figured out what that move was the hard way
I thought that Jigglypuff down-b did nothing for a long time, I don't remember how I finally understood how it works but that's a really weird move.
Grenijas's counter is by far my favorite just because of the off stage play with it even if it is not that good overall
It’s really good compared to most counters
I agree as a greninja main I only use it offstage or if I know for sure that the opponent is gonna throw out a move. Plus I think the directional input aspect of it is really good (especially diagonal down) and no one really expects the greninja counter for some reason.
As a greninja main I can confirm counter is both busted but also terrible. On moves that shift opponents hurtbox a lot (snake dash attack for example) it’s SUPER inconsistent and will whiff regardless of the direction. It’s offstage game is okay but the best way to counter offstage is diagonally down and depending on how close greninja is to the stage, the game will glitch and spawn greninja into the stage and fixes itself by spawning him back on the ledge. Very inconsistent and precise but upwards counter (the strongest variant) kills most characters ~120% so it’s pretty dumb in that aspect
@@andrew_gutz the thing with the hurt box appearing in the stage and the fixing itself is only for horizontal counter when the opponent is below the ledge
It’s a weird move, it has high enough knockback that it’s a kill move at high percents if you angle it right but you could also just whiff. Fun to use tho
It’s so bizarre seeing how low Corrin’s counter is considering how busted it was in Sm4sh
It was so broken that it had to be nerfed immediately so that it didn’t kill instantly.
Thing killed bowser at 0
@@OrigamiAhsoka yeah but only if you decide to fully charge a fsmash for some reason.
Kinda sad considering how current counters are
@@OrigamiAhsoka it also didn't help that rage in Sm4sh was busted as well
Joker's down-B is the same as Melee and Brawl Zelda down-B: it turns you into a better character
no they have to hit you
@@presion5628 and? Zelda's down-b was sooo slow that you can consistenly F-smash shiek as soon as she appears.
@@kimotokirby1601 They meant Rebel's Guard only works if you take damage.
@@maxbearington7565 Of course, but the pay of is worthy enough.
@@presion5628 even better, you get Arsenne with rage
I was shocked to see Shulks' Vision make it to B-tier. That thing is extremely unreliable, particularly in the air. When I saw Sora's counter, I wished Shulk's was programmed that way.
Yeah Shulk’s counter is trash. I still remember that tweet from Dabuz where he smash attacked shulk, he countered and it still hit him. It’s so unreliable, maybe even more than brawler
Yeah, it’s one of the worst counters in the game for sure.
I think it might be in B tier because of how you can use the monado arts with it. I might be wrong, but buster i think gives it a higher damage multiplier, lower knockback, smash gives it lower damage, but higher knockback. Also, the fact that you can control which direction it can send at helps too. Not that I think the counter is good, because I think it's really bad. But i guess you can kinda understand why it's in B tier???
Also someone correct me if i'm wrong, not really an expert on shulk
I play Shulk and I find landing a successful counter with Smash or Buster to be super useful for taking out stocks or getting the opponent to a good kill percentage, but I'm not an expert on Smash at all and I'm honestly not very good at the game compared to most, so I can see why it's not reliable in high level play.
@@vmaru3951 The thing is that those Arts make Shulk extremely vulnerable if Vision doesn't activate, because the move has a horrendous cooldown period.
Don't get me wrong, it's a moderately strong move (definitely weaker than its Smash4 counterpart, however), and elsewhere Mockrock dislikes the 'strong but less reliable' counters.
I don't mind the cooldown period; I mind that the counter misses about half the time. Just let it connect properly. Situationally, the move can be useful, but it's very highrisk.
While Brawler's counter has a lot of pitiful aspects, at the very least, it is at the very least one of the most satisfying ones to actually land, with its animation giving off an energy similar to Doc's back throw
My man 🙏 even if it sucks and is so short
Killing with it is the most satisfying thing ever when you can actually land it
Oh and don't even forget the sound. That's a fantastic sound.
My friend plays Mac so it's always satisfying when I can kill him with that counter since Mac's ground game is so insane it really mixes him up
@@GameonHead *THUNK*
you can also reverse k rool's counter if the opponent is really close to you - i love when i counter a falcon knee offstage and send them flying backwards towards the blastzone
It would also be cool to see a tier list of Kirby’s hat to see which ones turn Kirby into an absolute monster
Shulk hat easy SSS+ tier
@@Light-ro5bp I genuinely think Kirby with Monado Arts in Ultimate is my single favorite character to move around with in any video game.
Juggleboy actually made a tier list of copy abilities based on how much they help in their respective MUs!
MookRook actually already made tire list about that
I actually kinda wanted to see kirby with peach hat on this tier list, specially after seeing the kicks which i would not consider counters, bc i remember sakurai mentioning how when kirby inhales a character, the borrowed move does more damage than the original, and also bc of the general nature of kirby's kit, how much use can he give it, at the very least on the peach matchup, i think it would have been an interesting thing to analyze
2 things about k Rool counter that wasn’t mentioned:
1: It is reversible, though it can be hard to land, it is really good for taking a stock if you’re being ledgeguarded
2: It has a hitbox even when reflecting, this means that, if you’re hit by a projectile at close range, you hit them with a reflect *as well as* the counter attack, this does devastating damage
Especially after shooting the cannon ball diagonally forwards, it sends straight into it
King K Rool and Sora are the only characters who counter and reflect at the same time. Getting hit by both can be devastating
I kinda wish Revenge boosted movement speed in addition to attack power (obviously less of a boost). Being able to turn projectiles into attack buffs is great but it doesn’t actually help me get any closer. Plus unlike smash4 Cloud limit you wouldn’t really be able abuse the movement buff as it would go away immediately after hitting someone once.
Just a thought
They need to nerf his strength and weight (been mid in both) but buffing his air and ground speed!
Trying to level out the traits will remove the taste of any character, including incineroar, so doing that is understandably not a good idea.
What I would think of is to punish running away from incineroar in some way, such as when you revenge a projectile, not only will it give incineroar extra power, but the owner of the projectile will be hit by a flaming pillar summoned from below, which sends them upward and towards incineroar. This puts the opponent in a juggling situation, something that incineroar is very potent for.
@@williammin8340 As far as I understand, Revenge is supposed to represent the move in the Pokemon games. I know Double Team and Substitute also work very differently but that idea is a bit too out there. Just buffing his movement overall while Revenge buff lasts would make more sense in my opinion.
@@rafaelbordoni516 but buffing movement is obviously not in their agenda, so this is what I think of.
@@rafaelbordoni516 revenge in Pokémon is nothing like in smash. It’s a pretty weak move that always goes last (with some exceptions), but deals double damage if the user was hit by the target during that turn. If anything, a flame pillar hitting the target would be more accurate to Pokémon, as it’s an attacking move, not a status move, although Revenge is normally a Fighting type move, not a Fire type move, but they gave fire effects to Cross Chop (Up B) so it’s fine. (Also off topic but does anyone else think that it’s weird that 3 Pokémon have Counters, but none of them use the move Counter for it?)
I have to hard, hard disagree with Greninja being C. When used in the context of the character- a slippery mixup combo machine, the counter is quite essential. Bonus because of how people know of gren's shitty oos game- people tend to try pressuring you a lot in shield, and the counter represents a real danger for suddenly switching the pace and punishing them.
Also, this is a rather little known fact but greninja's substitute doll represents a lot of bonus utility. If you know how to manipulate it you can move the doll near the ledge and give yourself a 20+ frame window to 2frame with downsmash, instead of the usual 2 frames. Or place it on a platform to extend upsmash's active hitbox to 40+ frames. Seriously there's an apolotion video that covers the use of sub doll, it's woefully underrated.
Shulk needs to go below C tier. How on earth it can be ranked above greninja, I have no idea. Vision is extremely inconsistent and whiffs more often than it hits, which to me is a death knell for counters which are already unreliable by nature.
Do you know who Joe is
@@qwertyuiop1854 yes
You don’t know anything about shulk’s counter. It’s crazy how everyone in the comment is low balling it. I main shulk and I can tell you it’s very good and useful
I agree with everything but you didn't mention something... Substitute kills most of the roster at the early 100% if you angle it strait up, so if you're struggling to find a kill, bait an attack and counter it, there's so much utility to the move feels more like an A than a C if you ask me
Agreed, Greninja's counter isn't the best in the game but it's solid at what it does and provides some much needed utility for the character. Plus at 100% launching the opponent straight up with the counter is a guaranteed kill, which is higher than any kill throw I believe. Not as reliable to land as a throw obviously but definitely something to consider, it can be quite scary.
I love Corrin's Counter Surge. Especially how powerful it used to be in smash 4.
Love Sephiroth's Scintilla too.
Key words smash 4.....
Its needed so bad in this game its not fun to use
Corrin's counter in smash 4 was nuts. If it wasn't the strongest in that game, it was easily one of the top 3.
Tbh I still like Corrin’s counter a lot, even in Ultimate. I mean it’s a dragon and that’s awesome
They def nerfed it too hard (even tho it was kinda asking for it)
At least we can still escape juggles with it. Plus since it launches into the air you can start juggling your opponent instead.
One more thing I’d say in the favor of Sora’s counter is that, because of his S-tier recovery, you can use his counter literally anywhere offstage whenever you like, and still recover.
Also, important note - Sephiroth's counter can be b-reversed, meaning that as long as you're moving, you can cover both sides with your counter. As such, the directional component only really matters for the space above and below Sephiroth.
And if the opponent isn’t careful they’ll still hit the counter barrier
It's also the one counter that gets powered up by comeback mechanic
i pretty much 100% agree with this apart from shulk
I would say c tier it's so inconsistent and the reward isn't worth it
but yeah great vid as always
i feel like shulk's counter is about as or more inconsistent than mii brawler's counter
Greninja's is also way too low for how versatile it is for the solid reward you get off of hitting it
Soras counter is so satisfying to use, I literally just used it today on a banjo wonderwing and KO’d on stage. the knockback is pretty good and sends them pretty far horizontally. completely stopping their move and whacking them w a giant oversized key is also visually pleasant
my only issue is i think u underrated greninja's counter. Its endlag really doesnt matter considering how far he travels, it still kills at high percent or on strong moves, and if it doesnt, it combos or puts the opponent in perfect positions to be abused by greninja's offstage and juggling game. It's such a flexible move that i think it deserves a higher spot
It's also active for half a second like wtf lmao
Yeah, the upwards version can kill at stupidly low percents if followed by Up Air.
Bruh how does the endlag not matters considering how far it travels lmao. Like, you will only travel if you land the move, and if you don't, you will be stuck on a pitfull 70 frames of lag. It's kill power is really bad compared to other counters and I'm not sure those combos are true at all. I think it's c tier placement is well deserved.
Dude didn't even talk about the angles 😭. I think it's low B at best, definitely not C
@@loodle3638That's cause it doesn't affect the placement.
One more thing about Gut Check is that the melee counter is separate from the reflected projectile. This means that if you Gut Check a charge shot or similar move at point blank range, the combined reflected charge shot and counter will do borderline Incineroar levels of damage.
1. half focus attack also crumples, but it does high shield damage instead of ignoring shields
2. You missed a few things about counter throw. The fact it sends behind you is much more impactful than it might seem, their feet are completely vulnerable, they become marth in the air, and it ignores projectiles
Also projectiles ignore it too.
Still probs the worst counter in the game, but it has a bunch more applications to talk about.
Focus 2 is plus on shield and you can realistically get every punish you’d get with 3 as long as you fadc afterward. Short hop sour fair and down air both work fine, and realistically that’s the only thing you should be going for other than shoryuken at kill percents.
@@WarrenValion I'd argue that dishonor goes to Ike's.
Brawler's has its faults, but at least he's not screwed 100% of the time when he misses.
Also, Counter Throw has a bigger grabbox in the air, so it whiffs way less.
@@MrGameguyC Ike isn't completely screwed if you shoot him lol.
So basically what you're saying is its F- 🤔
I'm just assuming people who bitch about Sora getting a counter never played KH1. It's a fundamental ability throughout the entire game. Just be happy they didn't add Strike Raid. 4 ranged keyblade throws followed by one super throw, where he's rooted in space but completely invulnerable.
That would actually be pretty sick if it was adapted to smash.
Blazing end but less commitment
>kingdom hearts
That could have been a great Final Smash, actually...
Also be happy the smash developers didn't play Kirby games otherwise we'd have canonical power Kirby in smash he could be OP
If Ike’s counter sent out a projectile like Ragnell is supposed to be able to I think that would make it more unique and give Ike a way to handle projectiles
I’d rather just make eruption down b and give Ike that projectile for his neutral b
That could also work. One less counter in the game will not be missed haha
for counter throw's hitbox. It's range is insane in the air. You can connect it with byleth's full range f-smash
My favorite counter is Shulk, mainly because at a certain point I know my opponent is gonna die, the animation is delayed to make the payoff JUST right, plus it looks really cool.
Ooh and also Smash art having the potential to kill my opponent at like 20%
I once countered a mario at 160% without a monado art, and he didn't die, instead i somehow lost and dropped Shulk
How do you do the reverse thing mock rock was talking about? I can’t figure it out.
@@Jovialist hold other direction as counter connects afaik
@@Jovialist Hold forward after you input the counter. Shulk has to be on the ground, unfortunately, or else you can't get the alternate hit.
Look closely, Mii Sword Fighter also stuns your opponent when it hits.
Some fun facts about King K. Rool's counter that weren't mentioned in the video but I feel are worth pointing out:
1. If you reflect a projectile with it, the counter hitbox is STILL ACTIVE, and both of them can stack at close range, leading to a hypothetical 3x multiplier on a reflected projectile. This sets it apart from the other counter/reflector hybrids.
2. He has full-body intangibility from frame 4-15 during its startup, allowing him to narrowly avoid certain attacks or grabs under the right circumstances.
3. It's the only counter in the game (to my knowledge) that can be turned around manually.
sephiroths can also be b reversed, unless you're talking about something else
@@Shimofae no, I mean K. Rool can turn around AFTER a move connects with his counter.
The thing with Peach's counter is that no matter which move you counter, it always deals a solid 26% and knockback that kills at around 100%, no matter how weak the move was
That means you're almost guaranteed to edgeguard and kill many predictable-recovery characters at low percentages, it deserves to be at least in A Tier
Yeah, I agree.
No
HOO BABY was just watching a few old mockrock vids for reference on how to structure writing abt some guilty gear ideas I’m working on and just came from the counter vid, good timing my dude :)
As someone who used to use mii sword fighter one of the main reasons the counter isn’t preferred is because it’s either that or a reflector which works very similar to Mario’s cape which can still gimp some opponents recovery’s better than the counter can but also helps in heavy projectile based match up and when your as slow as mii sword fighter is you’ll take what you can get
Sora’s counter can still counter things when getting hit from behind as long as the attack hit box is big/long enough. For example pyra forward smash and sephiroth forward smash
I would argue that, while yes, one of the most important aspect of a counter is to be able to catch recoveries, the ones that don't do that very well can actually be used differently.
For instance you say that Corrin's counter is not great for catching recoveries, but it is actually very good at preventing edge guards when you are recovering (specially when you are going high) this counter allows you to punish high edgeguards and kill out of the top for that. At the same time, while you wouldn't want to juggle your opponent with the counter, it is a great juggle startup, and I would argue that it was designed to be used in the air most of the time, not grounded, which makes sense since this way it will kill very early.
I am not saying that Corrin's counter should go in S or A tier, but it can definitely be a C or maybe low B tier if you use it properly.
If that counter received a higher multiple, it would definitely be better
@@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764 What makes Corrin unique is that he has pretty good ranged attacks, while having a cool rabid jab. He's like the perfect middle ground between Marth and Robin.
@@orangeslash1667 I would argue that his range is not that impressive nowadays considering how ultimate introduce many fighters that surpass him in that aspect, but what keep him from going higher is probably his mobility, being a bit mediocre which is a shame cause his combos could increase if he has more mobility
@@andresmiltongutierrezorteg2764 What do you mean he doesn't have good range???? Corrin forward smash has more reach than most fighters, expect for maybe Sephiroh or the Belmonts.
This tier list feels counterproductive
God, we're gonna need a pun counter for this reply section...
Well this was a humorous encounter.
My friend really liked this. Count her in!
With Mii Swordfighter, I've been using Reversal Slash due to it being somewhat of a worse Mario Cape and using it to deny recoveries in tandem with Chakram because I've found Mii Swordfighter's Aerial Down Air to sometimes put me in a worse spot than who I'm hitting.
Mii Brawler's counter is one of my favorite moves in the game. It's really bad, but I just love it. The actual counter being a grab and all is really cool, and the sound effect is super satisfying. Can't argue with your placement, though, it sucks as an actual counter!
Yeah, the first time I ever saw Mii Brawler's counter was me using it against a Falcon Punch when I was playing with friends, and I seriously was not prepared for the suplex that launched them backwards at 500mph.
There's also the fact that it's the only counter (aside from sora's) that works on wonderwing. Due to it being a grab, and wonderwing explicitly being coded to lose to grabs, it really messes that move up.
An important thing about peaches counter is that its a projectile, so hitting it with a move that reflects, like shine, (and the set damage helps your enemies here) they will counter-counter you
Random fact: K.Rool's Gut check actually has frame 4 intangibility that last for like 11 frames (F15). This means that - if timed right - you can actually get "hit" from above and the counter will work.
I have even seen that with Bowser's Dair, ang KirbyKid took some games after reversing the counter (because that's another thing you can do, tho it doesn't work if opponent's hurtbox isn't inside of you).
I thought sora’s stun on is counter would make it really inconsistent, but I didn’t realize how massive the hitbox actually was
Strongly agree with moving Ike's counter down to C. I would put it at the bottom of C, bordering on F. In addition to being ridiculously slow (literally triple the startup of the fastest counters) the hitbox whiffs constantly when used in the air. The speed and accuracy problems make it surprisingly difficult to use offstage as an edgeguarding tool, even against recoveries that can be countered.
I would also move Shulk down to C for accuracy problems. The directional dash is nice when grounded, but in the air the move whiffs against loads of enemies slightly above or below Shulk.
Mii Brawler counter one-shots Ganon on doriah. Genuinely a broken move when it lands Vs heavys, which is surprisingly often.
I seriously disagree with greninja’s placement. It has one of the best uses in edguarding with the diagonally down angle, which means you can live afterwards. There is also serious cheese you can do with the substitute itself by extending hitboxes for easy 2 frames.
Sora has brief intangibility at the very start of his counter which makes attacks go through him and hit the keyblade making the counter successful. Good luck getting that off consistently tho. Its actually pretty good for sweeping attacks against him while he is in the air as they will make it to the keyblade even faster.
9:46 I would personally put it at an A because the Monado arts, with buster I've done like 40-50% with one counter and with smash I've been able to kill in between 40-60% (not counting the damage from the counter)
8:40 Ken’s Focus Attack is actually a punch attack even though the animation explicitly shows him kicking. Using a Foot Attack⬆️ Spirit won’t boost Ken Focus Attack, but Fist Attack⬆️ does. They literally Copy/Pasted Ryu’s Down Special data and forgot to change the effect from punch to kick.
Understandable, it's a common occurrence.
Many characters revert to their smash 4 idle animation when holding items, and many echo fighters and clones with unique animations, the animations changes back to the original character's in some situations.
Tldr there's a lot of copy pasting everywhere
As samus, nothing makes you sweat more than incineroar countering your charge shot, bc you KNOW that if he manages to get a hit on you, you'll be in a world of pain.
I love how sora counter can counter banjo side b. Best thing added in the game
fun fact, similar to soras, bayonettas witch time also reflects projectiles, she can hit sephiroth with his own counter if she witch times it
I think it would be cool if Incineroar’s Revenge gave him a small movement boost, then he would at least be viable
what are u talking about incineroar is already viable
@@zGoldenHawk HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... no
@@timmtimm9729 sounds like a skill issue
just get better and hes viable
@@zGoldenHawk Well, he struggles hard against characters like Belmonts. He's not really that viable when it comes to those projectile characters, because you have to get in close with your slow movement (and trust me, it's a pain in the ass as an Incin main to get close to them). A slight movement speed buff would make Incineroar more viable than where he is, and would help him alot
Greninja's counter lacks some of the conventional strength you associate with a counter, but it has some of the best utility of any counter IMO.
While countering strong attacks doesn't net as much reward as usual, the fixed knockback means that you can kill in situations where any other counter will not, such as a simple jab or multi-hit move. That said, up-angled counter is still pretty strong, killing most characters around 110-120 percent. There's also counter's use in aiding recovery by gaining a huge vertical boost which aids in timing recovery mixups.
It may be a bit slow and has one of the one of the largest punish windows if missed, but the overall utility of this counter should not be understated.
For greninja the substitute itself actually has a good amount of utility since it can block projectiles and be tilted to face upward to block even more projectiles so I would personally put it in B
Fun strange Mii Brawler counter fact:
Unless it has changed, it is apparently grab immune for its entre duration, endlag included.
Last time I experienced this was 2019 at LTC7, so this may have been patched. Situation (repeatedly) was Alolan Whip to punish counter only to have it push Mii Brawler along the ground. I have not tested it since then and it doesn't really come up often due to lack of character popularity.
14:00 most likely because people use power thrust more, while blade counter is great and fairly consistent for a counter, power thrust is great and fairly consistent in general
Also Reversal Slash, which is basically just Mario Cape.
I’ve actually not had much trouble with Ike so far. I don’t really play Nintendo games often but I play smash with my roommate and I’ve played Lucina against his kirby for years and always lost but I got Ike and a combination of his up b, side b, and counter really make for a deadly, if not annoying enemy. We’ve found that Ike’s counter window also lasts really long. Maybe that has to do with the laggy animation, maybe not.
Again, Brawler's Counter Throw has a bigger grabbox in the air, so it whiffs way less.
Check on Ultimate Frame Data.
that is so dumb why
Wait yeah what the heck that’s weird af
@@OrigamiAhsoka Your guess is as good as mine.
And that's the nerfed version, it used to be bigger
As a disgruntled Ike player I'd argue that Ike's counter is bad enough to be a contender for F tier. Besides being the slowest, and formerly the laggiest counter in the game before Sephiroth came along, the supposed power that is meant to balance it is only felt if you catch a powerful hit with it - it still has the weakest 1.2x counter multiplier possible despite Roy and Chrom receiving the 1.35x multiplier. Even Palutena has 1.3x on her less powerful double-duty counter.
Furthermore, not only did the counter portion both lose active frames and get more endlag tacked on than other counters coming from Smash 4, they even made the actual ATTACK laggier, making it dangerous to use to block recoveries on both success and failure, as Ike falls considerably farther during the swing animation than other counters, including those of faster fallers Roy and Chrom, and he is already not a character who's very comfortable trying to recover from below. Its sole strength was a decent ability to kill offstage off of even weak hits, but there are now a slew of counters capable of doing that without nearly as much risk.
Even though Mii Brawler's Counter Throw is kinda crap, it's always in my main Mii Brawler moveset because it's strong and STYLISH! It's so cool-looking when it connects!
Fun fact about ike in the very specific situation where ike uair gets countered by incin and then ike counters incin revenge fair then incin just fucking dies at any percent and it is so funny
I should mention Mii Brawler's counter counts as a grab which can also counter Wonderwing (life as a Banjo main is hard) but that doesn't make his counter better or Sora's less special imo
I 100% agree with that incineroar statement, as an incin main it is so damn funny to be 50% behind, land 1 Nair and be even.
Sora's "reflect" property on his counter is also pretty good for stuffing boomerang-esque attacks and pika's down b.
As a Mii Brawler Main I could confirm that Counter Throw is the worst counter in the game, easily his worst down special. Just pick Feint Jump if you care about results or Head on Assault if you feel a bit crazy.
I value this video, and enjoyed watching 😀
But I only agree with three choices 🤗
Thanks for making it though! It was useful to form my own opinions and make my own teir list
ok so minor gripe with corrin counter because its up ward angle makes it especially great for landing on stage (something counters are supposed to be used for)
I’m a link player, and I personally discovered why Sora’s reflective counter actually does something. I got hit by my own boomerang after it went through him.
Pretty sure it nullifies the returning property of it though, so short hop and you'll be fine
Some other things to note about bayos witch time. Hit boxes are still active, meaning moves will clank and if it’s a multi hit, you will get hit the moment witch time ends. And about bat within, in the air when doing witch time and triggering it, you can’t influence the direction fall, you also can’t move on the ground when triggering it during witch time either meaning you will be hit by multi hits again.
"Incineroar mains lean on [Revenge] maybe more than any other counter in the game, and for good reason"
revenge my beloved
revenge is the only reason incin does halfway as decently as he does, that move defines his MU spread. it's kinda unreal lmao
Mii Brawler counter is the worst if your character is a zoner or projectile fighter. Any non projectile fighter, especially heavies, can die at 20% with almost no window to punish unless you grab. It is extremely inconsistent on different characters but against some others is extremely busted (Yeah I'm a Ganon main 😭)
Marth’s counter actually has (slightly) more range than Lucina’s counter.
Why that is, I don’t know.
Because of Lucina's pose. She kneels down so her range is shorter
I heard it's because of their stance during the detection animation. Lucina turns to the side more and becomes thinner.
Man how the mighty have fallen. Corrin's counter used to be utterly devastating in Smash 4. They went WAY overboard when they nerfed all of her specials.
Yeah but Mii Fighter’s counter is the sickest in the game. When you pull that off you feel like a god.
Putting Corrins at the bottom is ridiculous. Corrins actually can hover mid air and interrupt combos. As a Mario and DK player countless times I’ve don’t an up air combo and they spam counter and I die at 30% over the top, meanwhile the other FE characters don’t have that feature
As an Ike main I’d say C tier makes me kinda sad but I’m forced to admit that hitting it depends on getting some pretty sick reads, so I’m ok with it. Still, to me, nothing beats the feeling of getting that counter and seeing my opponent fly offstage, maybe precisely because I have to get the read for that to work
When it comes to focus, don't know if you knew this but focus can lead to both shoto's being super plus on block when descending and allows both of them to get guaranteed shield breaks if done right. Of course, that is using them offensively not defensively but if you ever talk about those moves again I think it's worth noting
I think Corrins counter is pretty good, it has pretty good range so if you play in team battle and the both opponents are attacking you from 2 different sides you could easily hit them both, so for me I would at least put it in B tier but that’s just because I play a ton of team battles
Ryu/Ken's Focus Attack does not need to be fully charged to activate the crumple state. You're able to crumple with Stage 2 (indicated by the first yellow flash). Stage 3 only crumples longer, but Stage 2 is still great since you can FADC out of Stage 2 after hit to kill confirm/hard combo from it
Seeing Substitute rated below Vision and Double Team hurts my soul.
I think double team is definitely better than substitute.
Vision though? Yeah that move is garbage, substitute is *WAY* better than that move
The best part of Incineroar counter is the sound and animation Incineroar makes
Sora's counter isnt consistent, when someone is on stage and someone outstage fails most of the time.
And I don't agree with Corrrin his B.
Also Sephiroth's counter power up when has one wing.
Yeah I don't agree with Corrin's counter either. It is meant to be used in the air where it kills very early. I've caught many Kirby stone with it and they usually panic and release the move instead of staying invincible, and the surge just kills them up the top. The same when as Corrin you are recovering high for some reason and the opponent tries to edgeguard and you just counter them and it kills them or at least leave them in a juggling situation for you.
@@buccob What makes Corrin unique is that he has pretty good ranged attacks, while having a cool rabid jab. He's like the perfect middle ground between Marth and Robin.
I agree with the Brawler counter, but I'll never forget the time I took all 3 stocks off my friend by countering Byleth's axe with it. It was literally a 1 hit kill.
You gave sora S tier just for edge guarding? Based off that logic then lucario deserves at least an A he teleports to your targets location. And it’s really consistent off stage. Even with low aura it kills almost every time off stage cause you can chose the direction and get a stage spike everytime. He’s just not played a lot so people don’t know that.
So, offstage/in the air, you can hit an opponent from above if the counter lands?
Something to consider about Lucario's counter is that it tracks at a great distance, is invincible for a very long time, and is safe on shield with aura, and even without aura is still safe against most of the cast. Since you can choose the direction, what this means is as Lucario, if you can counter something guaranteed, you should. His counter is the ultimate anti-slow-moving projectile move. Since it scales with aura and not off the projectile it's countering, it can also kill regardless of the strength of the projectile.
Some of the best moves in the game are almost completely invalidated. Pikachu and Pichu thunderjolt are the most notable. Using those against Lucario is a deathwish. The amount of Pikachu's I've killed at 60 because they tried to use their neutral-skip is too damn high. Other notable moves it counters is Olimar's pikmin toss (free tracking teleport kill move on command), the Links' boomerangs, PacMan Hydrant (iirc?), and many more. If a projectile is reactable, it is a liability against Lucario because of this move.
Because of the endlag it's not a YOLO counter, but it's one of the best anti-projectile moves in the game. I mean you can use it as a YOLO counter, and because it scales off aura you can kill a megaman by countering a pellet. But its real strength is in countering projectiles.
Did you try parrying the kick instead of blocking it?
If I'm not mistaken, Lucario's counter also has grab intangibility from the start of the active frames to the end of the move. Weird, but fairly nice.
Yes you have intangibly not invincibility
13:25 Kinda surprised MockRock didn't mention the giant grab box Brawler has when he counters while in the air but hey it happens.
Have to hard disagree with incineroar. A lot of projectile reliant characters can just follow up on you while you're in the boosting animation and start a combo on you, and if they happen to do it with grab, you givem up neutral for nothing. Then, if you're too far away for them to do that, they can just pop you with a second projectile while you're in the animation. God only knows how many stocks ive lost to charge shot after revenging a missile from over halfway across the stage. Plus, if you're counterjng a projectile, you still have all the space to close before you can use the revenge, and against someone more mobile, the revenge timer can totally just wear out before you get to use it. It's a great counter, but the anti-projectile functionality is a lot better on paper than in practice.
^ this
I bait my local Incin with lvl 1 fireball with Hero. I follow up with a grab and forward throw so I get better stage positioning to open up Menu.
@@joeyC34ee That's them bring predicable.
Any counter can get punished when you get the read. That's not revenge's fault.
I still can’t believe they made sephiroths counter a projectile
I have some gripes with witch times placement tbh. now, when compared to other counters, which are overall bad moves imo, it's not the worst, but is also not one of the better ones. First off, the staling of the move is WAY more than shulks, you only need to use it twice to get to the maximum stale, but that doesn't really matter considering that even only one time using the move is usually enough to not guarantee follow ups at low percents. Combined with the fact that it stales even if you hit it during the start up (which btw doesn't match the animation, so you could times where it looks like the counter should've activated but it doesn't), and that it has 43 frames of end lag, whiffs against most multihits if staled, extends the duration of hitboxes which is EXTREMELY bad when you take into consideration the insanely low priority of bayo's smash attack, the risk far outweighs the reward, and like you said, consistency is very important for counters.
1. land witch time.
2. get f smashed by dk during endlag.
3. cry.
I see professional Bayo's use witchtime all the time. WAAAYY more than the characters below in tiers use thiers. In my opinion that tells you something. It is one of Bayo's reliable kill set-ups, where she can struggle to kill.
@@RubixNinja it shouldn't have been nerfed so bad though, it's legit one of her only ways to kill at decent percent. You could even leave wt alone and just give her smashes slightly better priority and it would be a game changer.
One fun fact about the Croci boi: as you all know he can turn around when hit, if he does this in the air he can launch the opponent in the direction he moved, so if you're close to the blast zone you can try catching an opponent attack and get an (in most cases) easy kill
You really don’t need to apologize for Mii Brawler having a trash counter.
Even if it were good, we’re still gonna use flip jump over counter.
Shulk's damage mutiplier isn't all that great, but the dash forward also does more than just change direction, it increases the knockback growth to stupid levels when combined with the damage multiplier in exchange for being more situational to use, and also the move has a sweetspot mechanic like most of his moves, with the actual sword being stronger than the beam. Also, the move's kinda known as "the counter you only use on the ground" among Shulk players bc its aerial version is infinitely worse than the ground version. Definitely more unique and quirky than it looks on surface level, and takes more thought from the player (especially when combined with arts) on how to use it than a simple "press button, counter attack"
As a Mii Swordfighter main who uses Blade Counter, I predicted that it was going to be A-Tier and I was right
Forgot about that banger intro, gosh I love that, always have. Good to hear and see it again. Also ngl didn’t realize you could select launch with Shulk counter-or if I did it’s just not a memorable aspect. Also maybe hot take but I think Substitute is one of the best counters. Maybe that’s a little bit biased but I think it’s just a very high utility counter, and lasts for a solid amount of time. From all my playing of Greninja I just feel like there’s so many use cases. Also Sora counter just straight up beats Wonderwing? Dang.
Dang, you did Greninja's counter dirty
-Fixed knockback scaling means that if you don't kill off the counter, you can probably combo off of it into a kill
-the substitute that spawns can be used to extend hitboxes, in some cases adding 10+ active frames to attacks with very few active frames
-Greninja is completely intangible during the attack phase of Substitute, meaning it can be used as a maneuvering option if an attack isn't as viable of a choice
-You can pick any direction, meaning you can kill that much quicker from anywhere on the stage, or even use it to recover from a really bad position off stage, two things I felt you *drastically* downplayed
nah you can't combo off of it. You can juggle off of it tho. If this was sm4sh. Yes you could kill confirm into Uair at certain %'s
@@alphawolf7038 You can still combo into UAir, if you read your opponent's DI. Doesn't hurt to go for, at the very least
I’ve been loving these tier lists. You put a ton of insight and work into them and you clearly have a ton of knowledge of this game. Great second channel!
If I remember. Shulk's counter would hit opponents even if they were shielding and was stronger... back in Smash 4
They fucked it up even worse in Ultimate. His arts are also just riskier than before.
My only disagreement is Sephiroth. His counter is literally free parry food and is the only one whose counter can just straight up kill him. A tier at most.
I swear, DLC has just been a sliding scale of counter powercreep.
Buff my mans Ike. Why does he have a frame 9 counter with 73 frames of endlag and a tiny forward hitbox and it isn't even the strongest counter to make up for it. What the fuck.
Because up b exists now
Really it's the second pass of DLC. The first pass was surprisingly reasonable (apart from Joker, obviously).
Ike's counter should have an absurd 2x multiplier solely because its that committal
his up-b can be used like a counter because super armour, also if it was on this list then easy S
@@thatguystandingbehindyou0_0 that actually sound fair lmao.
Honestly, as good as Rebel's Guard and the Karns are, I'd say Revenge is the best counter, if Inceniroar didn't have it, he wouldn't be playable at all, Joker's Karns are a nice bonus, but definitely not needed, if revenge was on any other character, they'd be incredibly broken
brawlers counter may be bad, but it looks STUPID fun
Corrin's entire kit is designed for walling and juggling, so a counter that blasts an opponent upwards into the range of his monstrous up air or up b isn't a bad counter, and especially not for a character that wants opponents above him. It will still definitely kill off the top if Corrin successfully counters in the air, making it a little risky to attempt any juggling shenanigans against him since he can either outright kill or quickly turn the tide and start counter-juggling you back. Also??? That goddamn hitbox on it is fuckoff HUGE??? That thing can be triggered from miles away and still hit EVEN IF THEY'RE BELOW PLATFORMS because it's so huge. It's a huge RIP to any light characters too since it kills of the top instead of the side, lighter characters get hit way harder by Counter Surge than a normal counter. I've killed Pikas off the top just for countering stray thunderjolts at like 80-90%.
Yeah, it sucks that it's not as strong as it used to be, but to say that it's outright garbage is .... no. Hard disagree. I would say it's at least C-B tier with the rest of the FE characters. It's got different utility than the rest of the FE characters, but it isn't bad. To say Counter Surge is worse than Peach's or Ike's counter laughable imo.
Source: am Corrin main.