I guess one thing we are left wondering about is the power efficiency. I'm not familiar with the raspberry pi pico, but I'm guessing that it's more efficient than 3.3/5. Despite this probably irrelevent concern , great job on the design. It's really nice and improves on things that the original designers are probably embarassed to have forgotten.
@@jpmacielsGah! That's really frustrating if that's the case. Why didn't Raspberry Pi just splurge for USB-C in the first place? I'd happily pay the two-cent premium for the upgrade,+0.5% of the base retail of $4. (Maybe throw an extra penny in for the additional solder and if an extra SMD resistor is needed.) I'm sure there are other factors at play. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if RPi has a bajillion micro USB ports still on hand. There are always tradeoffs, I guess.
super sick. to be honest I never knew about the switching regulator issues on the pico, as i've always spun my own hardware around the RP2040 with the features you've shown.
The Adafruit KB2040 is also a great RP2040 board with most of these features (type-C, reset and bootloader buttons) and it's in the widely used pro-micro form-factor/pinout so it's compatible with anything that uses that footprint.
Nice improvements, USB-C is definitely the way to go. You may also want to fix the USB VBUSDET connection, to connect to a pin that is defined for that function for the USB hard core on the chip. (it is not in the stock pick design) Though this may mean you'll need a customized BSP for the library config, if you want to properly use the functionality. The library as it is, when configured for a "pico" has some workarounds to use plain GPIO functionality to accomplish the goal. Though I can't remember if it was in the library itself, or just in the code for the examples. Either way the fix should be pretty easy. I'm looking to do the same for a board I'm designing, but still earlier in the development cycle than you.
Nice job! Idea for version 1.2: this board could really benefit from in-built rgb LED like on some ESP32 board. If you'd use adressable kind, then it would need only 1 gpio.
@@ivolol yeah RGB leds are just unnecessary, especially addressable ones, you can’t just blink it or use it as a simple status indicator by just toggling a GPIO, you need to set up the signal to send to it.
The issue may be the temperature range with your product. Mainly because of the linear power supply. I didnt see any thermal vias your PCB. I'd need to know the temperature range to use it. Other than that, it is definitely superior.
@@dmytroengineeringeven more so, the arduinos use LDOs to step 7-15V down to 5V, while this just steps 5V to 3.3V. So the power dissipation is even smaller, assuming similar current consumption.
Yes, I am currently already buying chinese "knock-off" pico boards after I got a single official RPi Pico board. They "cheaped out" with an LDO, used type-C instead, and had more than one button (all features I want). If Aliexpress is already making better implementation than you after a couple of weeks, you've done something very wrong, IMHO. Nice project.
I think that the usb C port on the pro pico should protrude from the pcb so that it can be panel mounted, for instance in a 3d printed case without the pcb being visible. I understand wanting to keep the same pcb dimensions though.
It's awesome you have the kicad files available, and that PCBWay has a kicad plugin to translate it into a full, proper order with them. I've never used them before, though, so I am not sure exactly how to order what I want. Do you know if they offer something in between PCB-only and their full assembly option? I'd like to try my hand at soldering SMD, but I don't want to source all the parts. I see they have the option to make solder masks. I want "assembly, but skip the last part where you actually solder everything, and instead just dump all the boards, parts, and solder masks into a bag, and mail it to me that way, please."
That's a subscribe from me! Great video, loved the dive into what makes a microcontroller board like this better or worse than others. Important with all the cheap board clones out there to know what to look for and what shortcuts others might take.
Raspberry founda... Trading stopped improving their line for “normal” end user. Even though those were the ones that sit in companies, that later adapt these into their programs. Seems like it wasn't the smartest idea to become a sell out.
I got pissed off because of what pi5 is, I kind of want to design my own, with M.2 slot on the bottom and optional eMMC. It not only would be much more convenient to use SSDs, but also other PCIe devices, there is big market with all sorts of M.2 adapters to for example 6x SATA. And if possible have the ethernet PHY be on some baby CM like plug-in module that default is 1G but can be replaced with modules that do 2.5G and even maybe 10G. The official pi5 heatsink has got the fins wrong way around and a lot of performance is killed off. It also should have some rugged permanent alternative 5V entry connection like a screw terminal for uses in cars, industrial or automation uses, it could be just a DNF footprint and connector supplied separately for those we need it, this way there's even no cost increase.
Interesting you say that, I am also currently working on my own linux SoM/SBC. Except mine is more focused on running real time low level code and isn't that powerful compared to something like a modern pi. Also I would recommend you wait until the CM5 because then you can skip most of the annoying stuff like having to reball the Pi 5 SoC and doing DDR layout.
Also the using 5V 5A is such a stupid idea. You need expensive power bricks, expensive cable with an emarker chip. Just use higher voltage like literally everyone else! You still need a buck converter for the board so its not like you're saving on components or board space.
I'm not sure if this is something even allowed by the Micro USB spec, but I was tricked this week into thinking I'd fried one of my Pico's. Just completely dead. I tried different USB ports, multiple computers, all three (3!) different spare Micro USB cables I could find... Turns out all three Micro USB cables I have on hand are POWER ONLY. No data connection. Literally the only devices I have that still use Micro USB are Raspberry Pi boards, and I apparently have zero micro USB data cables to spare. Micro USB ports are garbage (yeah, yeah, hot take), and it vexes me that anything is newly designed and manufactured with them. So when can I expect your Pico Pro to be available on Mouser and/or Digikey? 😂
I didn't calculate it yet, but I would expect that with a sufficiently large batch of boards it would be about 4-6 USD, landing the total price of the board into the 8-10$ range.
i don't think you can just throw "wtf why i should disable interrupts while writing to flash" around that easily. first - i think people got too used to atmega chips that not only have internal flash but also have luxurious built in eeprom. second - rp2040 does not have built in flash memory (pointing that out just in case) and so it reads code via XIP from external memory chip - and you simply cannot erase/write to it while cpu fetches instructions from it. if you REALLY wanna do that (like if you wanna react real fast to interrupts), you should move your interrupt handlers code into RAM and remap vector table to tell the core that it's there now. but yeah this isnt really an intuitive and straightforward thing to do for some development platforms because they cover these levers under their hood (arduino, platformio etc.), so we are stuck with "wtf were devs of pico thinking" argument i guess. putting separate memory chip for nonvolatile storage helps, sure, but does not make your board as cheap for mass production as "wtf were they thinking" devs of pico board made it to be.
Next iteration should honestly coprocess analog functions with a discrete ADC. Also a decent wireless chip. This would truly be an all-purpose pro board; a mini version, like Adafruit's QT Pi or Seeed's Xiao, would also be nice as an alternative but I also understand that we're starting to pack too many components onto one board. Honestly I just wish the Pi Foundation would release an RP2040 successor that has built-in wireless and an ADC that isn't utterly dogshit, plus more analog I/O would be nice, while still being cost competitive.
I have no idea why they decided that 4 analogue inputs would be enough, that isn’t enough for most projects that use analogue. At the moment your best choice for analogue capable microcontrollers is the STM32G4 series, the STM32G474 has 5 x 12 bit 4 MSPs ADC units for a total of 42 possible channels with some overlapping and being able to be interleaved for even faster rates. They have built in oversampling capabilities and 7 comparators and 6 OP amps and 7 DAC channels (3 external, 4 internal). Plus the G4 series have floating point units and DSP instructions which the rp2040 also lacks.
@@conorstewart2214 Maybe assuming that your use case was intended? Just like the Raspberry Pi, it's highly probable that the Pi Pico had an intended audience and it wasn't 100% of everyone ever.
The T-splitters on the oscilloscope without termination can cause reflections also i have a hard time understanding indian accent and there is no side-by-side comparison of the noise
not sure if my 100MHz scope can pick up reflections from a 100GHz stub...and regarding the accent, I'd rather keep this one than try to imitate something else, that's cringe 😅
@@NNNILabs the stub still creates reflections that go back to the board, which might change it's behavior. Regarding the accent of course you can't do anything about it ^^' it's just a bummer, perhaps adding captions would help ?
@@shyne2643 your inability to understand what they are saying is your issue not theirs, you could just spend more time listening to that accent and then you wouldn’t understand it better.
Hmm, I would also suggest a kinda niche but really interesting market. I know of this thing called the VoCore but it's from 2016. I think a coin sized computer could be done a lot better. If there was a board with a dual or quad core CPU, atleast 2-4gb of ram and a PCie slot like the VoCore that might actually be a really insane thing, especially because it would be a sbc in a somewhat microcontroller sized form factor.
Good work, instantly sub ! So if not because of price, why would PI-Team made such bad, less thoughtful decisions like hiring an intern to do the job of a 20+ years reputation?
This does not address all issues. I solely use the Pico at the final stage, when I want to leave a micro in the project, not in development. Why? The Pico needs the following: - 16U2 or FTDI USB interface. The way to load software on the Pico is total junk because it lacks a bootloader. - Drop the GND pins between IO pins. On the other hand some extra VCC pins are welcome. This makes the board 5mm shorter as well - The bootloader button can become reset button this way, no extra one needed I don't mind loosing compatibility with add-ons. You constantly vary between pinouts, feathers, nano's, pico, teensy. Another one to deal with is ok. I don't mind USB-micro. Actually, in my classroom it is more reliable in heavy use then USB-C, and nice thing of micro is that I can swap a connector. I can't solder a USB-C connector though, way too narrow pinout. If you want rugged, USB-B is prefered though. those NEVER break, and you have nice 3m USB-A-USB-B cables. Never found such long micro or C cables.
You meant to say USB-c is more fragile. Micro is better. Look micro has fragile cables and good connectors, C has fragile connectors and KINDA good cables. Micro is the easy choice there.
Have you actually used them? With micro the cables and the connectors just drop like flies, I've only had a single broken C in a few ywars and that one was due to corrosion
@@thatredkite8310 yeah. Ever since phones got C I've despised it. Also why is there a Micro USB Type C, but no USB Type C? The micro connector is MUCH too fragile for the tower PC under your desk.
![Watch how i made White vs Black! [sticknodes]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iOeYDTV4L1o/mqdefault.jpg)
Time to justify to my boss why I'm spinning pro pico boards instead of just buying picos from Mouser...
Or buy aliexpress picos
@@Splarkszter which ones are good?
@@anterprites only from stores that are at least 3 years old and have over 97% store rating
Avoid if it has less than 97%
also make sure to never buy "lite" or "new design" versions.
Also, also, check the 1 and 2 star reviews.
@@Splarkszter thanks :)
now all I need is that sweet sweet wireless module
esp32(-c3 if you are in a budget)
@@bill88t96 got bunch, I just like rp2040 chip more
Pico W is already wifi enabled.
I guess one thing we are left wondering about is the power efficiency. I'm not familiar with the raspberry pi pico, but I'm guessing that it's more efficient than 3.3/5.
Despite this probably irrelevent concern , great job on the design. It's really nice and improves on things that the original designers are probably embarassed to have forgotten.
You should also try to keep the mounting holes compatible with the original. This make transistion/upgrade much easier
at 4:50 you can see that looks like the USB-C port is a little too wide to match the mounting holes.
@@jpmacielsGah! That's really frustrating if that's the case. Why didn't Raspberry Pi just splurge for USB-C in the first place? I'd happily pay the two-cent premium for the upgrade,+0.5% of the base retail of $4. (Maybe throw an extra penny in for the additional solder and if an extra SMD resistor is needed.)
I'm sure there are other factors at play. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if RPi has a bajillion micro USB ports still on hand. There are always tradeoffs, I guess.
Now we need a Pro+ Variant with pin numbers
I made my own similar boards once for fun. I then realized I didn't need 5 Pi Picos even if they had USB C.
Well done 👏👏 This should be the default board for the pico, maybe the Raspberry foundation will take note
but then it would cost $1 more, and they can't have that.
I hope so
You hit a market 😊 - Congratulations 🎉
Except there are plenty of rp2040 boards like this already, he is a few years late.
But you got the right brand.
I wish the pico pro would be for purchase somewhere for an also budget friendly price.
There are plenty of similar boards on AliExpress and elsewhere that already solve these issues.
super sick. to be honest I never knew about the switching regulator issues on the pico, as i've always spun my own hardware around the RP2040 with the features you've shown.
The Adafruit KB2040 is also a great RP2040 board with most of these features (type-C, reset and bootloader buttons) and it's in the widely used pro-micro form-factor/pinout so it's compatible with anything that uses that footprint.
Congratulations with your hackaday article! Nice project!
Nice improvements, USB-C is definitely the way to go. You may also want to fix the USB VBUSDET connection, to connect to a pin that is defined for that function for the USB hard core on the chip. (it is not in the stock pick design) Though this may mean you'll need a customized BSP for the library config, if you want to properly use the functionality. The library as it is, when configured for a "pico" has some workarounds to use plain GPIO functionality to accomplish the goal. Though I can't remember if it was in the library itself, or just in the code for the examples. Either way the fix should be pretty easy. I'm looking to do the same for a board I'm designing, but still earlier in the development cycle than you.
Nice job! Idea for version 1.2: this board could really benefit from in-built rgb LED like on some ESP32 board. If you'd use adressable kind, then it would need only 1 gpio.
Feature creep, IMHO. Just make the core chip function well.
@@ivolol yeah RGB leds are just unnecessary, especially addressable ones, you can’t just blink it or use it as a simple status indicator by just toggling a GPIO, you need to set up the signal to send to it.
Yooo I really second this. You really deserve more subs than this!
Astonishing that they put Amundsen’s whole ship in a SOIC
I am currently designing a PCB with the RP2040, so this was quite a bit of help, thanks!
Simply amazing 🎉
that is awesome, 100% gonna make some
Well done 👍👍👍
The issue may be the temperature range with your product. Mainly because of the linear power supply. I didnt see any thermal vias your PCB. I'd need to know the temperature range to use it. Other than that, it is definitely superior.
It's barely warm to the touch. All the Arduinos used LDOs, so it's roughly the same. The improvements in noise are worth the little bit of extra heat.
@@dmytroengineeringeven more so, the arduinos use LDOs to step 7-15V down to 5V, while this just steps 5V to 3.3V. So the power dissipation is even smaller, assuming similar current consumption.
Yes, I am currently already buying chinese "knock-off" pico boards after I got a single official RPi Pico board. They "cheaped out" with an LDO, used type-C instead, and had more than one button (all features I want). If Aliexpress is already making better implementation than you after a couple of weeks, you've done something very wrong, IMHO. Nice project.
GroundStudio Marble Pico is another "Pro" model of the Pico (I don't have the tools to see how much of an improvement it is over the og pico)
I absolutely love this project.
Much better Pico.
Any idea of making RP2350 version?
I think that the usb C port on the pro pico should protrude from the pcb so that it can be panel mounted, for instance in a 3d printed case without the pcb being visible. I understand wanting to keep the same pcb dimensions though.
my main beef with it is micro usb... it just sucks
Literally you said to Raspberry Pi: Skill Issues 🔥
Super cool project. 👍
It's awesome you have the kicad files available, and that PCBWay has a kicad plugin to translate it into a full, proper order with them. I've never used them before, though, so I am not sure exactly how to order what I want.
Do you know if they offer something in between PCB-only and their full assembly option? I'd like to try my hand at soldering SMD, but I don't want to source all the parts. I see they have the option to make solder masks.
I want "assembly, but skip the last part where you actually solder everything, and instead just dump all the boards, parts, and solder masks into a bag, and mail it to me that way, please."
I don't know if that is an option, I recommend you reach out to them though their support email or chat, I am sure they will tell you.
I would love to be as knowledgeable as you.. maybe i should order a microcontroller to start somewhere
lol you really nailed the pain points
I love these videos!
my picos are from aliexpress, they have a reset button, another button, 4/16mb rom and a rgb led
link??
Link?
@@haydenc2742 just search for raspberry pi pico in this 3 for x$ category
I just pick one from Weact Studio Store
Brilliant. 👍😀
The only thing I would have a problem with is soldering the RP2040 chip onto the board, looks fiddly to do this by hand.
That's a subscribe from me! Great video, loved the dive into what makes a microcontroller board like this better or worse than others. Important with all the cheap board clones out there to know what to look for and what shortcuts others might take.
amen
Nice job!
another issue ... the pin labels are still on the bottom 🫠
would you say you made it pro-per-pico.
Raspberry founda... Trading stopped improving their line for “normal” end user. Even though those were the ones that sit in companies, that later adapt these into their programs. Seems like it wasn't the smartest idea to become a sell out.
Will there come a Pico Pro with RP2350 too?
Could somebody point out the source for the ADC precision?
If you mean the problems: pico-adc.markomo.me/
If you mean how I made it better, then it's by adding a better voltage reference (LM4040) for the ADC.
Cool!
a neopixel on there would be cool
Type C? Shoulda used USB-B.
I got pissed off because of what pi5 is, I kind of want to design my own, with M.2 slot on the bottom and optional eMMC.
It not only would be much more convenient to use SSDs, but also other PCIe devices, there is big market with all sorts of M.2 adapters to for example 6x SATA.
And if possible have the ethernet PHY be on some baby CM like plug-in module that default is 1G but can be replaced with modules that do 2.5G and even maybe 10G.
The official pi5 heatsink has got the fins wrong way around and a lot of performance is killed off.
It also should have some rugged permanent alternative 5V entry connection like a screw terminal for uses in cars, industrial or automation uses, it could be just a DNF footprint and connector supplied separately for those we need it, this way there's even no cost increase.
Interesting you say that, I am also currently working on my own linux SoM/SBC. Except mine is more focused on running real time low level code and isn't that powerful compared to something like a modern pi.
Also I would recommend you wait until the CM5 because then you can skip most of the annoying stuff like having to reball the Pi 5 SoC and doing DDR layout.
Also the using 5V 5A is such a stupid idea. You need expensive power bricks, expensive cable with an emarker chip. Just use higher voltage like literally everyone else! You still need a buck converter for the board so its not like you're saving on components or board space.
@@dmytroengineering RPi is a constant string of disappointment, the CM5 will probably be ass and also with shortages until they release RPi6
@@igorordecha True that.
The main RPi line is not budget anymore, can't use this excuse anymore.
@@Arek_R. I don't think choosing 5V 5A over 9V or 12V(or even higher voltages like 15V or 20V) @
I'm not sure if this is something even allowed by the Micro USB spec, but I was tricked this week into thinking I'd fried one of my Pico's. Just completely dead. I tried different USB ports, multiple computers, all three (3!) different spare Micro USB cables I could find...
Turns out all three Micro USB cables I have on hand are POWER ONLY. No data connection.
Literally the only devices I have that still use Micro USB are Raspberry Pi boards, and I apparently have zero micro USB data cables to spare.
Micro USB ports are garbage (yeah, yeah, hot take), and it vexes me that anything is newly designed and manufactured with them.
So when can I expect your Pico Pro to be available on Mouser and/or Digikey? 😂
What's the cost delta?
I didn't calculate it yet, but I would expect that with a sufficiently large batch of boards it would be about 4-6 USD, landing the total price of the board into the 8-10$ range.
please put the pinout mask on the top layer not bottom , put the ic on the bottom side :) :) :)
how about you just flip your board?
If it makes u feel any better. I made my pico with an AMS1117.
I need this
i don't think you can just throw "wtf why i should disable interrupts while writing to flash" around that easily.
first - i think people got too used to atmega chips that not only have internal flash but also have luxurious built in eeprom.
second - rp2040 does not have built in flash memory (pointing that out just in case) and so it reads code via XIP from external memory chip - and you simply cannot erase/write to it while cpu fetches instructions from it.
if you REALLY wanna do that (like if you wanna react real fast to interrupts), you should move your interrupt handlers code into RAM and remap vector table to tell the core that it's there now.
but yeah this isnt really an intuitive and straightforward thing to do for some development platforms because they cover these levers under their hood (arduino, platformio etc.), so we are stuck with "wtf were devs of pico thinking" argument i guess.
putting separate memory chip for nonvolatile storage helps, sure, but does not make your board as cheap for mass production as "wtf were they thinking" devs of pico board made it to be.
Next iteration should honestly coprocess analog functions with a discrete ADC. Also a decent wireless chip. This would truly be an all-purpose pro board; a mini version, like Adafruit's QT Pi or Seeed's Xiao, would also be nice as an alternative but I also understand that we're starting to pack too many components onto one board. Honestly I just wish the Pi Foundation would release an RP2040 successor that has built-in wireless and an ADC that isn't utterly dogshit, plus more analog I/O would be nice, while still being cost competitive.
I have no idea why they decided that 4 analogue inputs would be enough, that isn’t enough for most projects that use analogue. At the moment your best choice for analogue capable microcontrollers is the STM32G4 series, the STM32G474 has 5 x 12 bit 4 MSPs ADC units for a total of 42 possible channels with some overlapping and being able to be interleaved for even faster rates. They have built in oversampling capabilities and 7 comparators and 6 OP amps and 7 DAC channels (3 external, 4 internal).
Plus the G4 series have floating point units and DSP instructions which the rp2040 also lacks.
@@conorstewart2214 Maybe assuming that your use case was intended?
Just like the Raspberry Pi, it's highly probable that the Pi Pico had an intended audience and it wasn't 100% of everyone ever.
i need this
do you know of the esp32?
The T-splitters on the oscilloscope without termination can cause reflections
also i have a hard time understanding indian accent and there is no side-by-side comparison of the noise
not sure if my 100MHz scope can pick up reflections from a 100GHz stub...and regarding the accent, I'd rather keep this one than try to imitate something else, that's cringe 😅
@@NNNILabs the stub still creates reflections that go back to the board, which might change it's behavior. Regarding the accent of course you can't do anything about it ^^' it's just a bummer, perhaps adding captions would help ?
@@shyne2643 There are captions I made manually, simply enable them.
@@shyne2643 your inability to understand what they are saying is your issue not theirs, you could just spend more time listening to that accent and then you wouldn’t understand it better.
You're a G
hmm that Indian guy messed up and said PFM instead of PWM at 5:41
😂
Hmm, I would also suggest a kinda niche but really interesting market. I know of this thing called the VoCore but it's from 2016. I think a coin sized computer could be done a lot better. If there was a board with a dual or quad core CPU, atleast 2-4gb of ram and a PCie slot like the VoCore that might actually be a really insane thing, especially because it would be a sbc in a somewhat microcontroller sized form factor.
por Why C++ and not C?
Good work, instantly sub !
So if not because of price, why would PI-Team made such bad, less thoughtful decisions like hiring an intern to do the job of a 20+ years reputation?
Without WiFi these are mostly not useful to me. Mostly I use these for remote device control.
It's beyond PRO , just saying❤
all this “pro” and no ENIG 😧
Jeg er enig
We need some silkscreen that says VTEC
Buy Chinese clone which is much better.
Reset button, RGP led, more ADC pins, usb c
I want 10 how I do pay you for your work.
This does not address all issues. I solely use the Pico at the final stage, when I want to leave a micro in the project, not in development. Why? The Pico needs the following:
- 16U2 or FTDI USB interface. The way to load software on the Pico is total junk because it lacks a bootloader.
- Drop the GND pins between IO pins. On the other hand some extra VCC pins are welcome. This makes the board 5mm shorter as well
- The bootloader button can become reset button this way, no extra one needed
I don't mind loosing compatibility with add-ons. You constantly vary between pinouts, feathers, nano's, pico, teensy. Another one to deal with is ok.
I don't mind USB-micro. Actually, in my classroom it is more reliable in heavy use then USB-C, and nice thing of micro is that I can swap a connector. I can't solder a USB-C connector though, way too narrow pinout. If you want rugged, USB-B is prefered though. those NEVER break, and you have nice 3m USB-A-USB-B cables. Never found such long micro or C cables.
Who is using the ADC of a pico? Lol
You meant to say USB-c is more fragile. Micro is better.
Look micro has fragile cables and good connectors, C has fragile connectors and KINDA good cables. Micro is the easy choice there.
Have you actually used them? With micro the cables and the connectors just drop like flies, I've only had a single broken C in a few ywars and that one was due to corrosion
@@thatredkite8310 yeah. Ever since phones got C I've despised it.
Also why is there a Micro USB Type C, but no USB Type C? The micro connector is MUCH too fragile for the tower PC under your desk.
I still need to finish my own dumb pico board 🧌🧌🧌