Which Pastors Can You Trust? | Tim Keller, John Piper, Gavin Ortlund, Voddie Baucham, Matt Chandler?
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- In this replay episode, I play a little game with Megan Basham from Daily Wire. I mention a well-known leader in Evangelicalism by name, and then Megan and I place them in one of three categories.
Here’s the list of names we cover in this episode:
1) Timothy Keller
2) John Piper
3) Gavin Ortlund
4) Voddie Baucham
5) Matt Chandler
6) Michael Horton
7) Russell Moore
8) John MacArthur
9) R.C. Sproul
10) Doug Wilson
The “old” fault lines of Calvinism vs. Arminianism, Cessationism vs. Continuationism, and Baptist vs. Presbyterian are still important, but the “new” fault lines have quickly moved to the center of the debate. What are these “new” fault lines? Oh, you know. Things like Woke vs. Not Woke, Covid Tyranny vs. Personal Liberty, Socialism vs. Capitalism, Globalism vs. Nationalism, etc. Now what we’re starting to see when it comes to these “new” fault lines, we’re starting to see that there are basically only three camps:
1) Pietism (Apathy)
2) Pragmatism (Marxists)
3) Perseverance (Faithfulness)
You’re definitely not going to want to miss this episode!
#JohnMacArthur #VoddieBaucham #RCSproul
Jeff Durbin, James White, Voddie, Sproul and Doug Wilson have been very helpful in me waking up from the Jehovahs Witnesses.
Doesn't mean they are pastors,
Whether they are pastors, they are faithful Evangelists.
@@joshualeibrant3443 I know they weren’t on the list, but Jeff Durbin and James White are pastors. I just listed teachers that have been helpful to me.
@@FormerFetus1995 by no means are these false gospel preachers who worship the murderer of Adam and Christ (John 8 44) pastors
@@ricksanborn6667 negatory ghost rider
Better to Trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man...Psalm118:8
Amen.
And Amen
Amen
Hallelujah AMEN AND AMEN
Both now and forever Amen
I came to saving faith later in life (35 yo), I’m 62 now…in 1999 I read Sproul’s “Chosen by God” and my life was put on a whole new trajectory! Since then I’ve listened to hrs and hrs of RC’s sermons, read his books, etc…his winsome demeanor, his wit, his devotion to Holy Scripture…these traits are why I esteem him above most…but right below him (and it’s purely subjective, merely because I found RC first) are Wilson, Webbon, Robles, Durbin as far as contemporary guys go…but give me Spurgeon or Lloyd-Jones any day! And I would be completely remiss if I left Lewis out! I read “Mere Christianity” before I was converted and before I was halfway through it, I KNEW it was all true…and that I was hell bound! It was another 7 years before I fell to my knees and cried out “God I can’t live like this anymore! In Jesus name, HELP ME!!” I heard (inside my head? Outside my head? Just ‘sensed’ the words in my heart?) “All is well”…and with those three simple words, I was delivered from a 14 year heroin addiction…haven’t touched drugs or alcohol since that moment…I miss RC…I’ve met Doug Wilson a couple of times…Thanks Joel, for this episode…btw, I got ‘em all ‘right’ before you two discussed ‘em! Lol
Praise God, Bless you❤️🙏🏼
Fantastic!
@@Philip__325 it’s ‘to’, not ‘too’…learn to spell, your snarky comments will be more effective that way.
I love Voddie Bachmann, he stands tall on the Word, even though he is Southern Baptist. I've had to move away from our prominent Southern Baptist Church to a non-denominational church who leans hard toward Calvin's interpretation.
Amen! RC Sproul was such an amazing man and pastor. He, also, was an amazing example of what it means to “rightly handle the Word of Truth” as 2 Timothy 2:15 admonishes of us!
Re: John Piper: Not sure how much value there is in a reporter's assessment of any theologian/pastor's trust factor, but the exchange at 24:30 gives some insight.
Guest: "When the CRT stuff first started happening... I probably used some of that terminology without knowing what I was doing."
Host: "Mm... Yeah, me too."
Guest: "Yeah! Because I really didn't know."
Now, in hindsight, both host and guest seem quite forgiving of their own error. Yet, their
confession comes right after calling John Piper "naive", "ignorant" and even "cowardly" for not discerning things perfectly in real time. Seems a little harsh to me, and certainly hypocritical.
Piper and his emotional theatrics don't belong on this list. Any Christian man who tells you he loves created life so much that he would allow his family to be raped and murdered rather than fight to defend them, is wholly disqualified. His hysterical attitude on recent conservative political movements, friendliness towards subversive atheist Marxist thought, and relative silence towards issues that actually matter further discredit him.
Naive is the kindest possible thing you could say about him.
It took them time to fully understand the new phenomenon of CRT. Piper is naive regarding common political ideology and never tries to gain more understanding.
I met RC when I was 18. I knew he was different from the depths of my soul, and I loved him. I raised three young men. The voice that they heard in our household, besides their mother and myself, was RC. "Renewing Your Mind," "The Tapes of the Month," and even sermons at Perimeter Church, ( thank you, Randy ) piped truth into our home and our lives. All this to say, of all the wonderful things that God, Himself, wrought in that man, courage was the highest attribute of my beloved RC.
RC, good man of good will. Vey bad theology. Ubi est Petrus, ibi ecclesia. Ubi Ecclesia, ibi Iesus Christus!
Went to RC’ church for many years. He and his elders are AGAINST EVANGELISM. Radically.
@@mrlxii62 Bad theology? Reformation truth.
I miss R.C. Sproul very much 😢
Ditto.
Yes!!! He is my Favorite Biblical Teacher by far........Of course merely human wise.
I’m not a solid, 5-pointer Calvinist but I LOVED him as well.
Im suffering from a painful neurological condition and questioning my faith. Please pray for me and I will keep praying to God.
Absolutely! I will definitely be praying! May I ask what neurological condition you’re dealing with (feel free to not answer if you don’t want to)? I ask because I deal with a couple neurological issues myself. I have Chiari Malformation, Idiopathic Intracranial Hypertension (also called pseudo-tumor cerebri)). And, I deal with neuropathy, spine issues, severe complex headaches, and a couple other minor issues, as well.
🙏
I will pray for you. And I asked that you diligently search the scripture and also check some great online resources as to the purpose of trials and life. James speaks about this in depth. A trial, such as a medical condition tests your faith and if you are in the faith it will grow it as you rely more and more upon God and not upon yourself. You need to have a mind towards eternity not on the temporal mist that is life.
I was suffering with neurological health issues for 20 years and I began fasting and eating strict carnivore and I’ve reversed most of it and no longer need my walker!! Please look up the carnivore community on UA-cam, there are tons of doctors who have come out against the food pyramid and explain why certain foods cause all these health issues🙏🏽
Another name should be added but who is no longer alive is Dr James Vernon McGee. His teachings are still on some radio stations and his gives examples of his fight against liberal teaching going back from the 1920s, 30s and into the 70s. He was fighting this battle long before most of us were born.
I was saved by God through this dear man's ministry. You're quite right that his teaching on Thru the Bible would really help the church see that these heresies today are nothing new under the sun.
I grew up listening to J Vernon Magee on the radio.
Didn't he deny Lordship salvation? I think he called it a heresy.
@@lauramckinney9896 I have read that he did hold to Free Grace Theology. This would support your comment. Best book on this is Christ The Lord by Michael Horton. May God bless you.
Dr Magee explained very clearly ,in terms that anyone could understand truth from God's Word,his " Through The Bible " series of books are the best lve ever read
The assessment regarding Gavin Ortlund misses the mark, for at least two reasons.
1. To put him in the "Neo-marxist" camp just because he emphasises adressing climate change and white supremacy is overly simplistic. You really don't have to be anything approximating a postmodern socialist, in order to hold Dr. Ortlund's positions. Also, the idea that he's ALWAYS on the political left, is just wrong. For example, he's staunchly pro-life. Furthermore, calling him a race hustler and comparing him to Al Sharpton is just not a serious or constructive way to argue one's point.
2. Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that he IS on the political left. From that does not follow that he's not a Faithful/Persevering pastor. To imply that you're, by definition, not a faithful pastor if you're on the political left is to create an unnecessary dichotomy. I say this as conservative Christian who's been politically active in a right-wing party for over a decade. You do not have to agree with pastor Ortlund politically, but you can still acknowledge that he does a lot of good work for the Kingdom of God.
That being said, may God bless you, pastor Joel!🙏
Pastor Joel is also a Reformed Presuppostionalist who has a disdain for philosophy and "reason" - as he puts it. If I had to guess, Ortlund's careful and charitable attitude towards engaging non-Protestants, and his nuanced perspectives on various controversial issues, probably doesn't sit right with Joel's own philosophical inclinations. But Ortlund is a serious thinker, unlike most in the Reformed Presuppositionalist camp.
@@Jimmy-iy9plHi Jimmy, Can you help me understand your comment? I’m wondering how a presupposition of the Trinity and the inerrancy and authority of the Bible would cause problems? If man’s reason and philosophy differ from that in the Bible, how is consistently choosing the Bible problematic over choosing the ever changing reasoning and philosophy of man? Thanks!
@@Jimmy-iy9plI definitely agree with most of what you said here.
@@sheldon3996the issue is that Joel presupposes that anyone who believes in climate change denies/rejects the trinity and inerrancy
@@TheToeSongthen I would agree with Joel. Jesus Christ holds the entire universe together. To believe in made up climate change is to blatantly not believe in his sovereign control.
People need Pastors,but the sad fact is most people are not familiar with the Scriptures enough to know bad doctrine when they hear it preached,God has given us a way to determine truth from lies,His Word
(Right on)...and His Holy Spirit. Some "Christians" have veils over their eyes.
Become a pastor then. Problem solved.
@logicaldude3611 l think that would be a calling from God, choosing a profession apart from God s calling is part of the problem
In fact, most bible versions are cursed of God. Revelation 22:18-19. Seek the truth!
Modern bible versions lie, change who God is, and continually challenge God and His word! by asking, Did God say? Come on, really?
God said He preserved His word. Psalm 12:6-7. Most modern bibles do not. In other words they are not admitting that God has a standard, His inspired word. His word is quick (alive) and quickens (gives life). His word is eternal. In fact, they deny that God preserved His word!
Most of the modern bibles have at least one out and out lie. NKJB lies in Exodus 6:3. They began to call on the name of the Lord in Genesis 4:26.
Others quote Jesus telling his brothers, i am not going to the feast. John 7:8. (Is he saying he is going to break the law of Moses?) He waits and then goes. Liar! BLASPHEMY .
Jesus simply said, not going now, not yet. He waits and then goes. No problem, no lie.
And blatantly they mock Jesus and unashamedly, constantly, with each change ask, Did God say? "All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made. " John 1:3.
Clearly He is the Creator.
Their Jesus was but a vessel. "Made through him."
Did God say Mark 11:26? Absolutely. It is an essential part of our walk with God. A verse that makes us tremble was added?????
Did God say? Acts 15:34? It shows God's divine providence. Silas was there when Paul needed him for a journey. Obviously Silas remained there.
BRAZENLY, they change or remove a word that gives the believers true power! Matthew 12:31 and Mark 9:29! Some spiritual warfare needs prayer and fasting!
Did God say eleven (11) times in the New Testament the word damnation, eternal burning? Yes. But not in theirs! Did God say?
Did God give three witnesses to that truth? Mark 9:44, 46, 48. They however only have v48. The other two they ask, Did God say? This is important because we need to know the truth and those who preach Annialism, we cease to exist, are easily proven wrong with these verses.
Jesus is God. Yet Jesus is man. Hebrews supports this with four verses, 3:3, 7:24, 8:3 and 10:12: "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sin for ever, sat down at rhe right hand of God; Hebrews 10:12. They do not use the clarifying words 'this man' at all. Again, Did God say?
Every change they make is an insult to God and His word.
God said He would curse those who add to or take from His word. Revelation 22:18-19.
In the Old Testament those who honored a false prophet received the reward of that prophet. So the Alexandrian translators, the bible societies the publishers, the promoters, sellers and those who teach from them (showing those ear tickling bibles as God's word) or honor them will be held responsible. If done ignorantly, repent. God will not be mocked.
This happened when the inspired Antioch manuscripts called the Textus Receptus were replaced by the Alexandrian manuscripts called the Codex B or the Vaticanus from the Vatican basement, and the Sianiticus from a monestary. They do not agree with each other and the latter has about 30 changes per page. Obviously inspired by their spiritual father who brings conflict, frustration, despair and DOUBT.
King James Bible online
Helpful tool:
Webster 1828 aka
Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary online:
This dictionary has civil and spiritual definitions. Look up: Repent, Regeneration, Believe, Conversation,
Suppliers: Churchkjb.com
Localchurchbiblepublishers.com
Sources:
Adullum Films
-Tares Among the Wheat Sequel video.
Books: The Revision Revised and The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both by William Burgon. Dean Burgon lived during the time of Wescott and Hort.
Book: Look What's Missing by David Daniels Chick.com.
Mythical Septuagint by Peter Ruckman.
Did Jesus Use the Septuagint? by David Daniels
I only trust the scriptures alone. Yes a pastor can get you started. But ultimately We are responsible for studying the scriptures for ourselves. I have been saved for 40 years. And over those years I have discovered that not all men are totally correct In their theology and it will be you alone that will be judged by God. Glean what you can from as many as you can, but be like the Bereans and study to show yourself approved.
Yes, we are called to be bereans. Our pastor continuously tells us that we should be checking him against scripture
After listening to this podcast I think it should have been more accurately tittled "Which Pastors Can You Trust for Their (Conservative) Political Views" and illustrates one of the problems in the church today, that many people have conflated political views with good biblical theology and spirituality. Social media and opinion-based "news" viewing has replaced bible reading and deep theological study. People who are theologically orthodox/conservative CAN differ on complex issues such as climate change, immigration, foreign aid, race, etc. but this list is heavily biased on the political spectrum (and i am politically conservative). Case in point, I have been listening to Gavin Ortlund for over 3 years (his youtube channel at least) and he rarely deals with these kinds of political issues and is soldily theologically conservative. You missed the mark.
In other words you're a Democrat.
I don’t agree with you on Dr Ortlund, or at least I haven’t seen reason to accept what you’re saying. I listen to him all the time and never really hear him talk politically. What am I missing?
He needs to be removed from her book.
Virtually nobody in the comment section seems to remember that no real pastor would be telling a Christian to trust them or anyone else. They would be telling ppl to fact check them against the Bible, but this mentality is literally non-existent in the traditional Christian world. I seem to remember Christ saying "woe when men speak well of you".
John MacArthur tells people what to do and what to think about everything.
@@USMC-cv5sdJmac is a wolf. He teaches that one can receive the mark of the beast and still be saved. He also teaches that the blood of Christ doesn't save us.
@@heather602
Yeah, his teaching is problematic.
This is a very good warning but is said fairly often. Two things:
1. This podcast is in the face of the Christian masses as a whole so quickly going down & under in the face of Woke Leftism. Megan and Joel are pointing you to the pastors that have stood up in the face of that tsunami to point the way out to safety.
2. So many speak of the how much these pastors helped them to find the way over many many years, that it is obviously important. That we not put FAITH in such pastors is however a good warning.
David Jeremiah is a pastor with a servant’s heart. Good pastor. While he past away Adrian Rogers was an excellent pastor who spoke God’s truth. Alistair Begg is one of my favorite pastors as well.
David Jeremiah endorses and raises money for TBN and word of faith heretics like Benny Hinn. He has poor discernment.
Passed
David Jeremiah has become tremendously political and is now calling everyone a communist.
@@USMC-cv5sd Perhaps he sells more books doing that than rehashing his end times theories.
@geod3589
So funny, I was thinking the same thing. When he did a radio series on the end times in the 90s, it wasn't extreme, but I was a dispensationalist then.....so of course I agreed with it.
He seems to be the only pastor on Trump's pastoral team who didn't put out a statement on the white nationalist Charlottesville rally.......
Yet, he has an angry anti left opinion about everything else......He sounds like a bitter old bigot.....I'm over 60 myself in the same county as he is.... I also voted for the republican guy for governor, but there's definitely a white Christian nationalist element with some of the right-wing preachers in this video, like Douglas Wilson, who wrote a book glorifying American slavery and said crazy things like rape hardly ever happened in American slavery.
The only Pastor I trust is the One who spoke the Truth, Jesus, My Shepherd. Don't get me wrong, there are some good Preachers out there. I like those who Preach from the Whole Word of God, without adding or deleting from It. 😊
With 46,000 Christian denominations to choose from, each with multiple pastors defending them, I choose to listen to those who cause the least harm.
The greatest barrier between God and man is the Church.
@@rodrogers6895Hm, I don't think Jesus' bride whom he loves is a barrier whatsoever. You should speak more highly of your savior's wife.
As it should be.
Hey theonomists-1 Timothy 1:5-7 (NASB95): 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
Brother Joel, be careful to take the place of “I get to discern and declare who is solid and who is not.” Pride goeth before the fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction. Please practice humility in how you make yourself the decider on these things.
I think this is completely out of context and soley based of the title.
Unbiblical nonsense. Scripture continuously exhorts all Christians to discern and declare.
Well done, much needed. Keep it going. We the people, need to keep educated on our spiritual leaders. We do it for our politicians, so let's keep it up on the spiritual battlefield.
It was thanks to Doug Wilson we found the Reformed faith and left the charismatic mega church!
That's why I don't tell people when asked my political affiliation, that I'm a Republican. I say "I'm a conservative Christian. I'm a conservative, because I'm a Christian, not the other way around. It's my Christian faith, that informs my political phylosophy.
what an honest, lucid and accurate dialogue; doug wilson's critique of Tim keller and how he has his thumb on the scales is well worth the read!
I find that it's people who were on the side of the white nationalists and pro confederate like MacArthur was vs people who are against racism like Michael Horton , Tim Keller, John Piper, and Russell Moore.
You don't even know what "woke" is.....that's something that was used in the black community in the 60's.....anyone who isn't pro confederate and anti black is "woke" now.
It's also those racist Christians who support Trump like Robert Jeffries and those who call him out on his lack of character and his bigotry.
Kenneth Talbot and Douglas Wilson are extremely pro American slavery and pro confederate, and they signed that anti social justice statement......so their idea of justice and a perfect society is one where black people are dehumanized.
George Washington ordered vaccines for the troops.
Conservatism isn't intrinsically holy, that is idolatry......Conservatism has ALWAYS been against minority human rights.
You guys are not prolife. A million people died from covid-19 and you bastarfs dont care. You just use abortion to justify your hatred and bigotry.
I haven’t finished this yet, but thank you for not closing down during Covid! I am Lutheran, but we attended a Baptist church, while ours was closed down, and I visited Jack Hibbs church to thank him for not closing down and I’m hoping to get to John MacArthur‘s as well one of these days. So again thank you for not closing down! Thank you for continuing to preach the word and not for seeking the fellowship of believers. God bless you for your faithfulness!
Of all the names on that list I have the most respect for Douglas Wilson. His love for the Gospel coupled with his literary skills as a writer has been a blessing to the church.
Agreed - There's a few that are certainly fighting the good fight, like John Macarthur and Voddie Bauchham, but Doug Wilson is pretty clearly leading the charge, and thus(IMHO) deserves the most respect.
Same here, he is a huge blessing to the church. Love to hear his take on things and am so thankful he is not afraid to speak up and say what needs to be said in a truthful manner.
Replacement theology is satanic and literally, expressly, and clearly, accursed in God's word. If he's still alive, he needs to repent and get saved.
@@myrealnameisjohndoe116 Doug Wilson is reformed but not a Calvinist, he mostly identified as a “ New Testament Christian .
@@a.d.marshall2748 who ?
48:02 I think a good number of us evolved in our opinions regarding Covid. We wanted to be safe, to keep our families safe, etc., but we experienced all the fear mongering and the inconsistencies regarding what was “essential” and what was not. John MacArthur was a leader and a trailblazer regarding the Covid issue.
This kind of discussion is what is wrong with the church. Divisive. I regret watching this entire show. I should have stopped at the beginning. There is no Christ in this.
Agreed and they try to equate everyone's identity to their political position that's not even necessarily clear.
I have found all these men helpful in returning to the faith, but most of all is Gavin Ortlund. Luke 9:50. I don't have to agree on every single item over there theology or their politics to know that they are on the same team.
Perhaps this woman is jealous of his intellect.
There's never ever a need for killing a baby
I’d love to hear your thoughts on Paul Washer.
Paul Washer is intensely cleansing if one is humble enough to recognize.
Love this.
The late RC Sproul❤ and John MacAthur are my favorite pastors
Agree with basically every single take, except Piper. JP has been faithful to careful biblical examination of virtually every topic under the sun for 40 years. His position on Trump was more about disdain for the deadliest sin of all (pride) than some kind of silent approval of the left, or vacillating on abortion. He's been as outspoken about abortion over the years as anyone. He's as faithful to Gods Word as they come. Other than that, loved the perspective on all the others! Great stuff.
Piper used to be so good on divorce and remarriage being adultery, but then he corrupted his teaching that you should remain in the adulterous marriage when Jesus says that they must repent and forsake the sin especially when HE said it is inside the church in Revelation 2-3.
I am with J. Max. as a pretribulation dispensationalist. My belief is simple, the Bible says what it says to tell us what God wants to tell us. If it’s not literal then the Bible says whatever I want it to say which puts us in the place we are today. Verses used out of context, misused by accident and on purpose. It allows “preachers” like Copeland, Hinn, Sharpton and Jackson to get where they are by allowing by opening the door for “other” interpretations. “Not a sermon, Just a thought”.
Tim Keller helped lead me back to Christ in my senior years. He recounted an episode of an illuminating conversation between J.R.R. Tolkien and
C.S. Lewis as they walked along the River Cherwell during their teaching years. Tolkien challenged his friend to consider that the other writer of children's stories consider that the Bible is wonderfully believable just as the fairy tales in which the characters lived happily ever after were for a child. My heart for Christ was reawakened as the love I'd known for Christ as a young child was reignited.-- If we choose to analyze and scrutinize every pastor's preaching
with a mind to ferret out each and every mistake (some more serious, clearly, than others), what will we be left with? A landscape of destruction as those
whose understanding and "perfect" discernment have castigated and cast aside the offenders? I listened very closely to your thoughtful interchange, but am left with this overarching question: What is the purpose of this vlog, and how would you propose that your audience proceed with the information you share? To be fair, I understand the critiques you make, but am left troubled that so few ultimately can approach "perfect" theological scholarship, integration, and ministry.
The studio doesn't matter! Only Truth matters!
In regard to Piper, I don't know much about where they spoke about his seminary and what he might have been "naïve" about. But in regard to the article he wrote before the last election, I thought the criticism was highly myopic. It is the criticism of two people who think Trump had to win (and I think falsely prioritize that up with central Kingdom and Gospel issues), and will get bent about any negative expressions about Trump that might have worked against him in the election. Piper did not write as if Trump had a monopoly on pride. He was expressing concern with his observation Evangelical Christians were sweeping that and other obvious Trump sin issues under the rug in favor of social policy issues.
And if Evangelical Christians vote in high percentages for Trump in the upcoming primaries, I think Piper will more or less be proven right in his concerns. When the choice is not so narrowed down and polarized and we can choose between people of similar policy stances, and if we still ignore the issues Piper brought up in that article.
I appreciate your zeal and passion for ministry, Pastor Webbon. Admittedly, I struggle with a video like this. There are good things all of these men have to share and we have to recognize that none of them are infallible and need to be compared to scripture.
“Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”
James 4:11-12
I had the same thoughts. Well said. More and more it's seems we are trying to tear down in the name of saying is judging righteously and it doesn't always feel like that's what really happening.
This video really seems like a more subjective gossiping kinda video that attempts to share opinions from these two regarding their personal feelings, thoughts, and denominational or secondary biblical issues in many ways.
The 3 P’s (piety,progressive,persevere) that is just a loosely made up concept to frame the labels given to each pastor is really worth hardly anything in terms of value. There isn’t much biblical scripture presented here to back up the ranking positions, nor deep explanations that provide serious evidence overall either.
Sure this may be lighthearted or whatever, but it does no real value in the end. There are hundreds or thousands of YT vids that will go into real scriptural breakdowns and explanations on sermons preached by any number of these men, both good and otherwise etc. The lady even admits a few times she hardly knows anything about some of the pastors she is supposedly trying to categorize into these 3P’s discussed. Obviously she knew in advance something about the topic to be discussed BEFORE this recording, and should have done her research, asked for some name changes to drop off, or just backed out etc.
The channels host should have set this up better between him and his female guest theologian in advance, on making it a more objectively facts reasoned discussion, if at all. Kind of a waste of time imo, or maybe entertainment for some maybe.
If they were going to debate different pastors, I think the “pastors” like Michael Todd, Bethel church leader, Steven Furtick, TD Jakes, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, etc are much better choices to discern, debate, chasten, and raise real questions about to warn viewers and new believers etc…
Too many Christians don't hold the Bible's theology as strongly. Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to go against those who were misleading others down the wrong path. He named names and anathematized them. To not address false teaching is to lend asent to it in the name of fopish politness & let weaker Christians be led astray even shipwrecked for a time. No one is immune from having their theology criticized.
I don't know. Paul addressed his rebuke of Peter, which all Christians would become aware. Christians do need to be made aware. We aren't full gospel, we are part gospel. Most evangelism church leaders would not touch much of the bible, particularly certain statements by Jesus and Paul with a 10-foot pole. I regularly read my bible and I see so much disconnect by what I read and what I see mentioned in churches, both locally and on a broader level. This is very helpful. And, the people referenced, I highly doubt would changed even if this was addressed with them, and, probably all of it has by various folks.
1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree [firmly] planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers.
How does one do this and be politically involved?
Macarthur was the one who woke me from my lukewarm Christianity, thank you Jesus for his ministry. I do not consider myself a card-carrying Calvinist, but I would still be living in darkness without JMac. Just stumbled onto your channel and love your messages. I hope God grows your flock, but not too quickly so you stop studying like Matt Chandler 😏
MacArthur has made false prophecies. What does that make him?
@@TheJCFan Wow, I never knew John MacArthur claimed to be a Prophet. I always thought him to be a cessationalist. Please point to these prophesies.
So do you consider yourself " saved" and can never be unsaved, no matter what happens in decades to come ? So what does it actually mean for someone to claim " I am now saved?" How then does that claim take into account verses that warn we must all stand before Jesus and his angels and be judged for their WORKS?
Should we ignore verses like Matt 16 27, Rev 22 12 and Rom 2 6 because we hold some kind of get out of jail free card, won in some kind of random Predestination lottery invented by John Calvin. Is this the same God of John 3 16
Who wants all to believe in him and be saved!
@@TheJCFanI too would like to know about these false prophecies you speak of…genuinely. Your statement is the first I have heard of him making a prophecy that did not come to pass or making a “prophecy” at all for that matter. As someone who listens to quite a lot of John MacArthur it’s interesting that I haven’t come across anything like that. Could you please point to examples of what you are talking about?
@@TheJCFan That makes you a liar. MacArthur has never done such things and has spoken against people doing such nonsense.....lol.
I think you mislabeled Gavin. Even if he’s wrong about the climate issue, to put him in the progressive camp is to miss him by miles. He holds a high view of Scripture as the inspired word, pro-life, and conservative views on sexuality to name a few. Respectfully, You need to listen and read more of his stuff if you label him that. If he’s a liberal, he’s the worst liberal I know.
This comment has not aged well 😂
The more I've listened to him now the more liberal he seems. The form of his arguments are L-ist
Agreed. Why is he even in her book?
@@mikezeke7041 I disagree. Gavin is one of the most humble thinkers who is a joy to listen to. I'm as conservative as they come but I'm sick to the point of nausea with the far right political agenda infiltrating the church.
You guys are spot on with your assignments! God bless.
I trust Holy Spirit leading me thru the scriptures
Nothing beats ripping on other pastors to elevate yourself; I just don’t think needle picking is helpful to a ministry when the real problem ‘pastors’ are Hinn/Copeland/Myers etc..
I agree that Hinn, Copeland, Myers are definitely dangerous people. But some of these guys are as well. It’s more subtle. And that’s what you have to look at. It’s frustrating because I don’t like listening to people say bad things about other people, but unfortunately, in this day and age, you have to be vigilant and diligent with the people you listen to. It’s frustrating. I wish we could just, listen to people and be happy about it but it doesn’t work that way. Satan has a great way of deceiving people through those that we think might be on the right track. Luckily most of these people that they mentioned are people that they like or are pretty solid Christians. So that’s a good thing. That way we know who to listen to you or who to at least Hold in relatively high regard when it comes to scripture. I think that is the main goal of this. Because some of these “progressive“ people can be very very dangerous. There are some in my denomination as well, and I’ve just become aware of them. And I’m very thankful for it, and started to become very outspoken about it because that is where New Age stuff and a lot of Non-Christian cultic factors can creep into the church and we don’t want that.
Excellent Discussion...Thank you...,🙏
John McArthur 👍👍
I've watched this one a couple times. Great job Pastor Joel conveying what and who are some big names in error and a few who are solid, God-fearing Church leaders!! 'The Apostle Paul never rebukes one's tone but rather whether they are in Biblical error.' So True.
I find that it's people who were on the side of the white nationalists and pro confederate like MacArthur was vs people who are against racism like Michael Horton , Tim Keller, John Piper, and Russell Moore.
You don't even know what "woke" is.....that's something that was used in the black community in the 60's.....anyone who isn't pro confederate and anti black is "woke" now.
It's also those racist Christians who support Trump like Robert Jeffries and those who call him out on his lack of character and his bigotry.
Kenneth Talbot and Douglas Wilson are extremely pro American slavery and pro confederate, and they signed that anti social justice statement......so their idea of justice and a perfect society is one where black people are dehumanized.
George Washington ordered vaccines for the troops.
Conservatism isn't intrinsically holy, that is idolatry......Conservatism has ALWAYS been against minority human rights.
You guys are not prolife. A million people died from covid-19 and you bastarfs dont care. You just use abortion to justify your hatred and bigotry.
Basham is unfair and cruel - especially to Ortlund.
I like this video, though timestamps would have been a nice inclusion for the various Pastors listed. Overall, thanks for this information, I certainly appreciated it.
I am REALLY enjoying this! Joel's commentary on Chandler, and ESPECIALLY Driscoll, is SO good! Astute, insightful, discerning, just spot on. I LOVE what Joel said about "what is 'gentle'"? And he's spot on that one MUST be more concerned with the Message than the Messenger and particularly SUBSTANCE over Tone!! Equally spot on when he says there is a line and when Driscoll moved over into just plain being crude that crossed the line.
There's a LOT of REALLY good stuff here. I find myself amazed at times by the discernment and insight. Not sure I would characterize the 3 Categories in the same way but very much grouping them the same. The only one that surprised me thus far was Gavin Ortlund. I know some time back and lit into him for something. I think it was his interview with WLC where he did nothing to challenge Craig's suppositions about Genesis being Mytho-History and Adam & Eve not being literal but I'm not sure. But then just this past Sunday I watched his video on Icon Veneration and thought it was superb.
Chandler is a bit of a pickle. Early on I saw some stuff from him that I just LOVED. Then I saw some stuff, particularly the CRT stuff, that concerned me. I think Megan nailed it with her summation that he was just trying to sit at the table with the boys. I think Matt was just trying to stay relevant and be a Peacemaker. His heart was probably in the right place but he was operating from the Flesh.
Gotta take a break and go make sure the critters are all put to bed for the night. Look forward to the last half. Btw Joel, should you see this, FWIW, I've enjoyed several of your videos too but I know there have been at least a couple where you completely missed the mark. I think there was one, if I remember right, that was really bad. But they're always thought-provoking and edifying in some ways. Take that from someone who's NOT a Calvinist, a Confessionalist, or a Covenantalist.
So very right. Rapid launch into the stratosphere of preachers is extremely dangerous.
Bashum is the exact thing she is insulting in her book. See the two quotes below.
Megan Bashum cares about Christians because they are “America’s most powerful voting block.” “You can consistently count on evangelicals to be the most conservative voting block.”
Trent Horn: “It’s hard to tell the difference between left-wing authoritarian communism and right-wing authoritarian fascism. In theology, something similar happens with far-left liberal Christians and far-right political Christians. They look the same because they care more about what Christianity can do than whether Christianity is true.”
Bashum puts politics before religion. She views conservative points (not Christian points) as litmus tests of faith. She is what she insults.
Thank you so much for this very discerning video!
I’ve learned so much from Tim Keller. His books are brilliant, his podcast “Questioning Christianity”, is a wealth of clear arguments for the faith. You all are judging these men pretty harshly. No human is perfect.
such a good video!
I don't need to trust any pastor. I know how to read and reach conclusions on my own. I don't need pastors telling me what to believe. I'm this thing called an adult. It's too bad that so many Christians rely upon pastors to tell them how to think. And boy is Right Response Ministry good at this.
Im not Calvinist but the best most trustworthy ministers are. Baucham all day every day and Dr. McArthur, and for the most part Piper.
So, you are not a non-Calvinist either.
@@cherylallis2458 that doesnt make any sense. I either am or Im not. I am not.
They stick to the Word properly. Our none salvation based conclusions differ in areas. Im willing to admit its maybe something I dont see, but I wont blindly follow anyones belief.
@@linjicakonikon7666 Exactly .. quit listening and following these men. Get into the Bible instead.
Sorry Piper is too Shallow!
Thanks!
Thank you!!
OK now that I put in my two cents on just about everything that’s been commented, sorry. Anyway, thank you so much for the show. It was very informative. I really enjoyed it. And thanks for all the comments. They were fun to read.😊
“Russell Moore is driven by personal grievance yet I’m going to shun Gavin Ortlund for talking about climate change.” Haha give me a break woman
I find Gavin to be very helpful in grounding Protestantism with the early church and church fathers. It really was a reform to remove accretions.
The infallability of God versus the
Fallibility of man
Who would you trust
Even the best of pastors can stray!
Great topic!
John MacArthur, Paul Washer , R C Sproul, Miguel Núñez , Steve Lawson, Burk Parsons .
I think Gavin Ortlund is actually really good when he sticks to church history and theology proper, but he's definitely a TGC guy and there are some big discernment issues.
Agreed. When it comes to engaging Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, he becomes a beast.
Justin Peters humble, good man of God.
Wow, she is really nuanced on Piper, well said!
As far as I’m concerned this is just gossip. Better to focus on your own salvation with fear and trembling then point finger of criticism at brothers.
“If the tyrant forbids what God commands, you should not at all judge that you have performed your duty if you have merely refused to obey the tyrant, unless at the same time you obey the command of God.” - Theodore Beza
It saddens me when my Pastor quotes Tim Keller. He does this on a regular basis.
Yep. That would make me sad.
That makes me terribly upset as Keller is a Marxist from his own writing..... he did write a book which said so. I have looke d into him very much. My very good church will someyimes use books that quoute him and some of the teachers defend him. I find him indefensable.
@@laurenlimebrook9828 Tim Keller is a Marxist? lmao
Same here!!
Trust no men... only God who is true to his word.
Alistair Begg is my favorite.
Given the new controversy idk man, especially considering he doubled down. big oof
I really appreciate the statement that the pastor must be a generalist and not a specialist.
So, first I’m not an expert on these American pastors but I am a Canadian pastor. I agree with the idea pastors should be generalists which means they know some stuff and have skills at some level of excellence. However, I found the show judgmental towards many pastors. The speakers sounded like they felt pastors should be all things in politics, social activism, theology etc. So many people want their pastors to posses their theology, their politics, their activism, and so pastors just disappoint. Your categories for them, the 3 p’s; are so general, subjective and biased. Oh that we could simplify things so that people or pastors fit the “p”.
I want my pastor to represent God’s word. Any pastor acquiescing to cultural dictates instead of Gods should be judged. Abortion, Marxist ideology and the outright acceptance of sin under the guise of love and tolerance should be judged.
Great video! Thank you!❤
What these times have done is expose who these people are good or bad , if they have a backbone or if they or a coward , if they are grounded in the word or not .
This whole thing is strange… like how did two people who both hold the keys to all truth find each other? Amazing 😂
👍
Honestly, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what you think. What does the scripture say? It starts and ends there. Just saying. Grace and Peace
Good discussion. I agree w most of your joint assessments. TIM KELLER hugely influenced my longtime Brethren pastor in his left turn into a social Justice paradigm 15~ yrs ago. He thus pursued his doctorate at Gordon Conwell where Keller attended. Everything changed after that. The gospel was replaced w SJ activism. I was spurned by pastor & elders for repeatedly challenging this. “Human flourishing” was the mission, which pastor finally defined as “rebuilding society”. So, I’d put Keller higher on progressive scale from much earlier in his ministry.
MICHAEL HORTON was once invited to speak at Shep Con, but only once, I think. Perhaps not re-invited after the very questionable interview I discovered he’d done with Sam Alberry. After listening to it & transcribing parts of it I really thought he was leaning progressive.
JOHN MACARTHUR is now my pastor ❤ (listened to him on n the radio almost daily while raising my kids) and I think your “faithfulness” rating of him is too low, Joel…I’d say more like 99%. He may well be wrong about revolutionary war (would be an interesting interview topic), but he’s entirely faithful in his relentless study of scripture & brilliant ability to present its truth in a way that grabs mind, heart & soul.
That's really disturbing to hear about. While no pastor, no person is perfect, I certainly would fight for this woman who has a terrible betrayal and all the grief and fall-out from this horrid situation. God doesn't like divorce, but He absolutely loves this deeply wounded woman... and the child or children that were abused! The Body of Christ needs to be there for her and her kids! ARGH! @@firstknight117
The premise of this episode is the problem. Find a godly, biblical, truth telling, grace giving local pastor and church and don’t put so much stock or give much attention to celebrity pastors who aren’t your pastor and who you don’t know.
Absolutely none as each are committed to have universal knowledge of something that can’t be known.
Algorithm is gonna be so pissed at itself for bringing RRM onto my radar. Good to find another Armored man.
Amen. Glad you found us!
Before Covid, I had hungered to witness and be inspired by fearless leadership within the Church body to speak and stand against the principalities we are submerged in. My biggest fear has been that my cowardice potential might win when it matters most. We have now found a Church body with leadership that has a spine. Now we can face the future within its ranks.
After being in a "church" for 34 years, I was SURE I could trust that man. Then, he proved to me what the Bible was implying all along; I can only put my trust in God. Now he's in prison, and I only place my faith in Christ. Men will be men.
Hang in there brother the modern day American church system is corrupted by greed these men will have their reward stay true to god advoid these wolves and their offering plates those offerings are not for you but to support childless widows who cannot take care of themselves
Here’s a general rule: most pastors are grifters. Bigger their church, more expensive their houses and cars, the bigger the grift. They are betting on which grift (either conservative vs liberal) will serve them the best. Just be aware of that.
True.
Jon Harris of Conversations that Matter has gone into Tim Keller’s history and he was super woke as far back as the 1970’s.
Megan Basham “teaching” all this reformed dudes is a weird form of feminism in our camp… I don’t get it.
She’s not teaching in this video- she is having a conversation and staying her opinion.
Stating*
“Teaching or having authority over a man” doesn’t mean having a conversation on a UA-cam video
My wife has taught me things, that wasn’t a violation of 1 Timothy lol
Love voddie
Loved this podcast
A lot of comments here saying “Only the Scriptures!” ect, but remember the Scriptures tell us that God has given the Church Pastors. Yes we do not look to Pastors as a final authority, but we are to submit to godly and faithful Pastors if we are to obey the Scriptures.
Thoughts on David Jeremiah?
Some of the names I did not know but they were the progressive guys so doesn't matter to me...if I heard them some time in the future, I'd recognize they were off base. I've been to numerous Ligonier conferences and miss RC. I have also purchased many books from Canon Press and still have all my old copies of Credenda Agenda. I met Doug Wilson's father, Jim Wilson, 49 years ago and he was the definite influence on all his kids. He wrote a wonderful little book, "How To Be Free From Bitterness" which helped heal my marriage.
Where would you rank/label:
Alastair Begg, Joel Beeke, Tom Ascol, Virgil Walker,Sinclair Ferguson, Conrad Mbewe, Paul Washer, Al Mohler, Jeff Durbin, & Steve Lawson (all among my favorites)…and second question; while I don’t like Charles Stanley, Mark Dever, Franklin Graham, or Ligon Duncan, do their separate, but concerning issues rise them to the level of them being called false teachers?
PC,....All those you mentioned are all frauds and are not Christians. They are all the sellers of the Godless worlds (the beasts) counterfeit (antichrist) christianity.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 So what you’re saying is don’t send you a bouquet of tulips? 🌷
@@patrickc3419 ,...What the church calls Calvinism is the true gospel, however, none of these guys are Christians. Just because they pretend to go along with "Calvinism" does not mean anything. It is no different than any preacher pretending to go along with Jesus.
The entire church is 100% apostate and what the people of the church say they believe means nothing. There are no Christians in the church.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 Sir, repent and believe the Gospel; turn to Christ and live.
👋
@@patrickc3419 ,...The gospel is what Calvin correctly understood as do all actual Christians. Any other gospel (the 100% apostate churches false manmade freewill gospel) is a fraud and is the gospel of the accursed.
No man can turn to Christ. They can only be deceived into thinking they can. You are steeped in darkness, deception, and a 100% counterfeit (antichrist) christianity.
Whenever the Doctrines of Grace are outright denied or, marginalized to any extent, heresy & weakness follow. So, find out where a teacher identifies on that issue & you'll know with whom/what you're dealing.
Great guest!❤
I found this discussion somewhat odd. Your assessment of the trustworthiness of these pastors seemed to have more to do with your perspective on the US political system and much less to do with their theology. My faith and theology informs my politics but I acknowledge that there are many faithful Christians who disagree with me politically, but whom I can trust because they are seeking to follow Christ wholeheartedly. We may debate politics because of our different views on how to live out our faith, but we don't need to debate Christ.
Amen.
Ortlund doesn’t belong on this list. He's wrong on climate change but there's room for people to learn and change on these secondary issues.
Hey Joel! Are you planning a response to Mike Wingers video?
I’d love to once the new studio is up and running.
@@RightResponseMinistries Awesome! We are excited to have u back again.
@@jaquirox6579 me too!
@@RightResponseMinistries Have you considered doing any brief and direct selfie style videos with your phone, in the meantime? It’s a casual recording, so no one expects perfection, and you could address any random things coming up in society, that are urging you. Hah! It could even turn into an extra side playlist for your channel. Lots of content creators do some of that style videos. I would 100% support and watch them.
@@jaquirox6579 Great idea. I’ll seriously consider it!
Voddie Baucham is one the best Christian apologists of our day.
My biggest issue with Pastor Doug is at times he comes across extremely arrogant and like he’s going out of his way to be a “Jerk for Jesus”. I don’t think that’s who he is by no means but he certainly seems to lean into it hard.
Hah! Well said
Looking forward to Tim Keller's 'Can we trust Joel Webbon and Megan Basham?' video. I'm sure it'll bear great fruit for the Kingdom.
🤣 Probably something in the line of a Julie Roys’ report?
There is only one pastor to blindly trust: the Lord Jesus. Any other human will fail.
I have been waiting a loooooong time for someone to do one on THIS! I'm gonna make a quick one here and then get back cuz, like you, I'm VERY curious to see whose in my own same "wavelength". Talk at ya in a few..😁