Breaking Benjamin is the Taco Bell of alternative rock/metal. You're not getting something authentic or original, but you're getting what you came for and you're getting the same thing everytime you come in. Just crunchy Drop A# riffs, I-VI-IV-V chorus, shout-singing about existential angst or a heartless woman, like a cheesy gordita crunch to my inner emo kid.
@@PapaSmurf11182ndwasn’t the thing about grunge is that it wasn’t really an actual set in stone genre. Like Kurt cobain was trying to do punk while the other bands were trying to do metal but because they all came from Seattle they got grouped together.
@@j_jizzle_69grunge was kind of a “feel”. Alice In Chains definitely came from metal, Soundgarden from alternative rock, Pearl Jam from classic rock and Nirvana from punk, as you said.
Metal is going through the same trajectory that jazz did. It keeps getting more technical and more self serious so less and less casual listeners are interested
I'm not on the cutting edge of jazz music but I'm a fan of the genre. I took a history of jazz class and it basically outlined what you're saying. The leaders of the genre became unconcerned with being catchy or accessible with the rise of bebop in the 1940s. People looking for more accessible music went to rhythm and blues, which led to rock, soul, disco, etc. Old jazz songs that are still widely known today were often written with some level of accessibility in mind. For example, here's a Louis Armstrong quote from the late 1940s, admonishing the inaccessibility of the new wave of jazz music: "These young cats now they want to make money first and the hell with the music. And they want to carve everyone else because they’re full of malice, and all they want to do is show you up, and any old way will do as long as it’s different from the way you played it before. So you get all them weird chords which don’t mean nothing, and first people get curious about it just because it’s new, but soon they’ll get tired of it because it’s really no good and you got no melody to remember and no beat to dance to." As far as I'm aware, nowadays there's broadly accessible music that fits the 'jazz' label but it's more the exception than the rule.
@@UA-camUserHello sounds like Louis Armstrong felt threatened by young people doing new shit. Funny how they're only in it for the money, yet making inaccessible music for a niche audience...
You kids will never know the struggle of being a black metal enthusiast in Chicago in the 1980s. You lead a cushy life today. We fought in the trenches. Especially people like Sig who said to people like his cousin, "Why you listenin' to white boy music?!"
I remember an interview with Fishbone where they said something about how the black community wasn't out there supporting them because they weren't making black music, and the band really seemed bothered by that. As a white dude, I never really understood why rock and heavy music got cut out of black music. Because, from what I remember, it was always black music, and more.
@@KhayJayArt White guy music industry types are responsible for a whole bunch of underhanded crap. I don't think they are at fault for convincing black audiences that Fishbone wasn't black music. But maybe I'm wrong. Can you back that up?
The New York City scene in the late '80s and early '90s was weird because there were always a few Black, Latino, or Asian people at metal shows because of the Hardcore scene in New York. Nobody ever bothered you at shows, but people outside, primarily minorities, used to have a whole bunch of questions when they saw me (a 6 foot + Black guy) wearing a Slayer or Pantera shirt. Other metal heads used to just throw up the horns as a sign of mutual respect for the bands. It kills me now to see people wearing old band shirts that probably never even listened to them. I have been guilty of taxing younger kids when I see them wearing an old-school shirt to see if they are legit 😆
Metalheads and punks being the most accepting is just such a global truth it is crazy. I am an immigrant and have never had issues hanging out with the rockers.
Rockers and metal heads in real life are wonderful and accepting. Rockers and metal heads online are entitled, elitist , annoying assholes unfortunately 😑
Speaking as a once introverted black kid in junior high school and in high school, I was a closet metal core fan. I got into it not to be apart of any particular social group, but because of how popular it was in AMVs and video game montage scene on UA-cam, at the time. I just grew to enjoy the sound based on the video content that was created with it.
Im Asian. Grew up on rap because BET didnt sell out to HBO or cable. I had an Ipod shuffle with a bunch of Linkin Park and Guns N Roses on it and from there I got into the metalcore scene in 2005. Nowadays Im listening to deathcore and prog metal. I dont even remember the last time I listened to Nu Metal lol. P.S yes Ive heard of the Linkin Park collab with Jay Z. That stuff still slaps til this day.
I've thought about this for some time. The end of the nü metal era in the mid 2000s brought about the rise of metalcore which, although popular in its own right, was too extreme to cross over into pop territory, and the bands didn't express much interest in becoming mainstream celebrities. What's more, nü metal's enormous commercial success angered so many in the metal community that its gatekeeping went into overdrive. For about a solid ten years, a lot of new bands and fans were maligned by older fans as the metal audience became increasingly obsessed with championing older bands, new bands that looked and sounded like older bands, and keeping the genre as obscure and "true" as possible. *Edit: One important thing I previously left out is that the metal community's sentiment behind the concept of "true metal" often carried racist, misogynistic and homophobic overtones.* Cut to 2011 and, over in the hip-hop world, Odd Future's graphically dark raps, sophomoric attitude and chaotic live shows brought a new energy to both hip-hop culture and alternative culture. They opened the door for a generation of artists and converted a generation of would-be rock fans into fully embracing the weirder, edgier side of hip-hop, which was pivotal to it becoming the biggest genre in the world. Now, metal can't seem to connect with anyone under the age of 25, and if you saw a kid that looks like they just left Hot Topic, they're more likely to be into Playboi Carti than Slipknot. Metal created a chasm between itself and the mainstream that is just getting bigger with time.
Metal was always destined to reject the mainstream. Metal is a rejection of humanity and group mentality and the socially acceptable "metal" that panders to big audiences doesn't sit well within that ethos. In a way it's a blessing. Metal is now finally allowed to be itself in the underground because the people who want to be popular yet edgy will now make hip hop. Nice analysis.
Agreed, but the thing is, the aspects nu metal challenged about the metal scene were those of virtuosity and technical integrity, replacing riffs with muddy, downtuned drop chords or just blaring out open chords. Of course the metal community found this pretty insulting, as it was clear the edges were getting clipped off only for attaining mainstream success, which just wasn't a priority for most metal fans anyway, who naturally suspicious of mainstream ambitions.
note that i live in france so what i'm gonna say might not be true for you but i remember that the second ghost got popular and started getting mainstream recognition by winning a grammy, suddenly every metal fan i knew who had liked them started debating whether they were "real" metal or not (not to mention the weird homophobia around them started getting worse) this is still ongoing, the second they got announced at hellfest i started seeing those people whining about it. to me they're such a good case study of that very elitist attitude that goes "this band is getting popular so we don't like them anymore", from underground darlings to most hated bands by True Fans almost overnight.
In the mid 2000s we had this neat metalcore scene in my area. It was a load of fun and most of the bands were decent we even had a couple of recognized underground groups came through our town. As cool as all that was there was a bit of elitism among the fans and musicians. Like if you didn't look the part then they didn't want you there... and if you tried too hard they'd pull pot-shots in the pit. Metalcore is ok but it was destined to go the way of the Dodo because of that elitism, in my opinion. Metal in general has issues with that but the metalcore kids I knew took it to another level. All the old farts going on about Megadeth still and the youngins were saying "git brootal detune guitar." Elitism all around.
you're so wrong lol, every metal show ive been to recently had a large contingent of young people who couldn't possibly have been listening to the band when they first broke.
I’m actually very happy that metal has gone back to the underground. The reemergence of death metal in particular is some of the best we’ve had in years. The main stream may have fell off but the underground is alive and well!
@Lars Steffen Same! Like some really kick ass talent out there. 200 stab wounds, Sanguisugabogg, Coffin Rot, Church of Digust, just the name of quick few! Maggot Stomp at a label is bringing out some great bands too. The rise of Death is here.
I got super stoked on the new wave of death metal and it’s sick that bands like Blood Incantation and Tomb Mold are successful and moving the genre forward it’s just annoying that there’s a giant chasm between the not-so-underground underground metal bands and, like, Sleep Token, Lorna Shore, Slaughter to Prevail, Polyphia, Spiritbox and Bad Omens in terms of popularity what’s funny is even Blood Incantation and Tomb Mold are exponentially more popular than the “real” underground bands
Since this seems like a good thread to ask for it: any current bands to check out if I am into the sound of ~2000s era In Flames? Whoracle, Clayman, Reroute etc. Obviously doesn't have to be a replica.
My theory is that rock radio seemed to just about refuse to pickup on metalcore or post-hardcore when that was what almost every rock or metal fan was listening to by 2010. They seemed to try to maintain the relevance of artists whose time had been a decade prior. Even as a fan of those alternative metal bands like Chevelle, Seether, System of a Down, Staind, Breaking Benjamin, etc. it was still frustrating because I could see the genre getting held back from any transformative effort. My second theory is that in the age of the internet, it’s cheaper and more convenient to learn how to produce electronic music as opposed to playing electric music. My ideal guitar rig still isn’t finished and I’ve probably spent well over 6k on it at this point. Music production of hip-hop or electronic music with today’s software (and let’s be real, the many ways the internet makes it possible to acquire such software) doesn’t require nearly that much investment and we never really recovered from the 2008 recession regardless of what the parties have said. If you are of a young generations, the ones producing most of the art, your financial prospects are probably not considered that great and so the more affordable means of music making are naturally going to gain more steam
Yeah it is the real reason rap is very easy to make compared to Rock/Metal and you don't even need a band you can do everything by yourself a beat and rap to it.
yeah I'm surprised neither of them brought up electronic music. Dubstep was a splash in the pot for the early 2010s in hindsight, but it garnered a ton of popularity online, and speaking from experience, pulled me away from listening to metal for a long time. Now I have a much broader taste in music which includes things like ambient/chill and highly produced orchestral-type electronic music, alongside a list of staple metal music that has mostly kept the same 100 artists with a couple albums to each. It's just really difficult to maintain a constantly evolving musical palette while growing older. You learn what you like fairly adolescently, and the longer you stray from that era, the harder it is to retrain your ears and mind to enjoy newer or less familiar music. Hell, even the bands that I listened to religiously when I was younger, I struggle to garner a welcoming ear to their newer albums where they pop up. Some of those bands have been consistently putting out records since I was a teenager, and I can't bring myself to just open up their repertoire and delve into new stuff, simply because it sounds fundamentally different to what I learned to like about them. And that speaks 100% to my own faults as a pure listener, and I also recognize the insane skill and dedication to their own craft that keeps bands staying together and continually putting out and evolving their music.
Yes. I hate it when people cite modern technology as a reason for any music to be more popular and accessible now but that's not the case. Electronic music and beats are so easy to make and distribute that any record company wanting to make money will pick up on it and leave the rest in the dust. As for the radio, I agree in an even broader sense. I know so many people who listened to metal but don't anymore because after burning through the types of artists you listed, they had no where else to go with the genre.
As a huge fan of metal and also your work this is a fun collision of worlds! While metal is definitely thriving in terms of the diversity of sounds it encompasses currently, i feel like the combination of fans being gatekeepy and the music industry not seeing much reason to showcase it to a wider audience are big factors why it gets less attention and airtime than other genres nowadays. There is also a general acquired taste element to harsh music that will always to some extent limit its appeal.
it doesn't need that attention, its thriving as an underground scene. it may not be popular, but the people who do listen to it tend to be far more motivated to attend shows than average fans of rap music.
@@khodges72 rap mega stars are different imo and I think there is truth to what he’s saying. You’ll get so many more people going to local venues to see local hardcore and metal bands than local rappers. Not to mention the energy is totally different. Sometimes I swear the main reason local rock bands get so much attention is because people want a socially acceptable place to mosh and be jack asses and honestly I see why and I love it. Local rappers will be legitimately talented but you’ll seem to only see a handful of people just standing around and tapping their feet like the goth kids from South Park or just sitting around. I get the sense that rappers just go from zero to a hundred purely by marketing their music on SoundCloud to a world wide audience before getting success doing live shows, but it seems like rock bands will jump straight into live shows and instantly start getting support from their local scene and attaining crazy energy from the crowd. Then again I’m from Fort Wayne so the local rap scene might be completely different in places like Atlanta or Memphis etc.
The entire Metalocalypse series is a formative memory for me, and I still get the giggles remember it. Obviously being from Iowa and being a youngin’ in the 2000’s, mentioning slipknot also unlocks many more early memories. This video was a whole wave of nostalgia to be honest hahah
I gotta think that a part of the un-mainstreaming of metal has to do with how Eminem singlehandedly scooped up a huge market share of those who might otherwise be numerous but more surface level metal fans, via perceived attitudes or aesthetics, etc. Buncha edgy young dudes who would have eaten up metal back when if Mr. Shady wasn't constantly bouncing around in their heads
@@johnindigo5477 I suppose so. But I'm wondering, if they chose to listen to Rap rather than Black Metal, why didn't black & brown kids get into Black Metal or Hardcore in the same way ?
@@tudormiller887 It was never marketed to them. There are very few marketed black metal musicians. you have to actively search to find them. And then black metal musicians marketed to black youth? There is probably an aspect of black appropriation going on here. The flow tends to be black community -> white people adjacent to black community -> mainstream white community. Cultural products don't tend to go the other way.
Loved this!! An all-female metal band that I liked around this time was called Kittie. If you like Slipknot, you may want to give them a try. ALSO the O'Keefe Foundation has a series of kids singing Slipknot and other metal songs from this time...we had Kidz Bop. haha
so many great bands with all women or women as vocalists these days as well! I haven't gotten into Kittie yet, but I'll recommend some of these modern bands for those interested in getting into (relatively) underground metal: on the more accessible, lighter end, I'd point to stuff like Sonja (helmed by Melissa Moore, the former guitarist from Apsu who completely destroyed them after they kicked her out for coming out as trans), Nova Twins, Battle Beast, Project: Roenwolfe (Alicia Cordisco is actually the guitarist of that band, and she is easily the best part of their last album), Sanhedrin, Code Orange, Blackwater Holylight, Unleash the Archers, Lucifer, Ithaca, Midnight Dice/Satan's Hallow (their vocalist was also in High Spirits back in the day and one of my friends loves the fuck outta that band), and End Boss. Transgressive (also with Cordisco as guitarist & vocalist) is also a really good thrash band whose lyrics deal with topics such as incels, transphobia (Cordisco is one of the most prominent trans women in metal), and misogyny. Anthony doesn't really dig them, tho I'd absolutely recommend Spiritbox as well. Courtney LaPlante is one of the few metalcore vocalists I can stand and she's an incredible vocalist. FFO really hooky metal and/or technical performances, and a mix of earpiercing screams and mostly beautiful cleans. for extreme metal, I'd point out Venom Prison, Exulansis, Svalbard, Arch Enemy, Oceans of Slumber (one of the few metal bands whose lead singer is a Black woman, and they're very underappreciated), Darkher, Mortal, Thou + Emma Ruth Rundle, Nervosa, Cretin, and Aephanemer (who are actually a really good introductory death metal band since they're symphonic and have some honest to god hooks).
Kittie were fucking amazing and RAW as fuck. the debut was a nu metal masterpiece (paperdoll especially), the succeding albums went more into death metal territory. thanks for reminding me, it's been some months since i last gave them a spin.
Check out, Derketa, Mythic or Gilgamesh for anyone interested in all women death metal bands. Also Larve, a newer band with a woman vocalist. Or Cerebral Bore. There’s more but I can’t think of them
Growing up loving Disturbed and then seeing them cover _The Sound of Silence_ is like watching your favorite uncle getting drunk and trying to fight people at the BBQ.
I fell off of listening to Disturbed in the late 00s so I looked it up and tho clearly many like it for their own personal reasons...oh my what TF was that? .__.
You may have your opinion but, I think Dave did very well with that cover. He has the vocal chops to make that song both deep, emotional, and manly. I hope he uses his opportunities to take his vocal talents into fun territories.
Glad they praised Iowa. Slipknot became a band that a lot of people loved to hate, which I always felt was unjustified. Those first two slipknot albums hit like a damn freight train to this day. Early Slipknot and System Of A Down (all of their albums) are the rare bands I listened to as a kid which I still love to this day. There was so much crap I listened to at that time, but there's a few gems from that era that aged remarkably well.
The idea of coming to a group of Metalheads and saying 'I like Metallica' ruining the mood is relatable and funny to me because I'm kinda That Person? My taste was massively shaped by playing GTA Vice City at an impressionable age and despite being born in the early 90s I just chased after stuff from the 70s and the 80s, with SOME of that 2000s Mainstream Metal. The other month I shared an Epsilon Zero track I ran across (the vocalist does Retsuko's metal singing voice) and praised the Generic North American Male Clean Vocals and was then ethered out of existence by someone posting Cannibal Corpse. Turning into a corn cob as I realise that the stuff I like is best summarised as 'easy listening for lapsed metalheads'
Being a fan of Metallica, or any of the Big 4 is so tiring - zoomers will call you "old-fashioned" and "dad rock"; boomers will call you "overrated" and "sellouts". The fuck am I supposed to listen? Never saw this happening with pop or rap.
As a highschooler myself, you did nail it about the internet removing boundaries. I, a white kid, got into Gambino and neo-soul from other white kids, indie on my own, afrobeat from a black kid, reggae from an afrobeat playlist (dont ask idk either), bossa nova from a sample I heard from a rapper reccomended by a black friend... there's just so much diversity in gen z culture, and we're growing up with every possible culture at our fingertips. It's fucking beautiful.
yeah im 22 at the moment but in high school I basically found music I liked from extremely obscure and unexpected places on the internet. I started listening to Mobb Deep because I was trying to shazam a song and it came up with a Mobb Deep song that sounded nothing like what I was trying to find. that introduced me to boom bap an 90's hip hop in general. found a remix of a lil ugly mane song on some random dj mix that slowly introduced me to memphis rap, one of my favourite genres of all time. some of my favourite albums I found from random facebook groups. just the other day some random alvin and the chipmunks sludge metal mix came up on my youtube reccomendation which led me to listening to more sludge metal which i really started to enjoy.
This conversation feels like reminiscing with old friends - I also lived the "metal kid in high school" life and eventually branched out to more diverse musical taste. But I still have such a soft spot for some of that (arguably disposable) metal... to the point where I'm probably the one guy still checking out the new records and going to shows from bands that played Ozzfest 1999!
Excited for this conversation and all the recommendations in the comments. I’m not a metal head, but SOAD was def brought back into heavy rotation summer of 2020. As someone who was socialized to play the role of “polite, high achieving, model minority”, metal (and a bit of screamo) gave me a space to express and explore some of my unadulterated rage that felt too chaotic and explosive to feel at home in hip hop.
i moved from playing sports to playing punk music in high school and the speed at which my old sports 'friends' disappeared was a lesson ill never forget. the punks and weirdos were entirely fine with being a diverse group of outcasts, but you had to be yourself to join. those sports dudes are 40something now and still havent figured that bit out.
Big “metal” fan in high school in the early 2010’s, but it was really non-commercial stuff I got from friends/guitar forums. Most of what the metalheads in my circles listened to was djent & metalcore since that was the trendy shit at the time. Periphery was a big one, alongside Protest the Hero, Between the buried and me, Human Abstract, etc. “Metal” is in quotes above because telling a metalhead that the above bands are metal could cause an argument lol. Strictly speaking it’s somewhere between metal and punk. But still!
I love Periphery and PTH for being metal with pop(Periphery) and punk/core(PTH) elements. I would never lump them with classic metal or heavy metal as they in my opinion step outside of that traditional metal sound.
Metal may not be super mainstream, but it's in a oretty healthy place imo, all the bands I like are touring hard and selling tickets and merch. Its a bit of a cottage industry, but one thats very much alive
I went to Ozzfest 07 when I was 16 and it was bands like Behemoth, Lamb of God, Nile, Daath, In This Moment, Static X, Hatebreed, 3 Inches of Blood, Ankla and a couple others. It was pretty sick, also Ozzfest was free that year
I grew up in the 80's, and there was definitely a huge divide between the metal and hip-hop scenes. Most of my friends were into hip-hop, me and like one other guy were into metal, and we were friends but we would routinely bag on each other for our divergent musical tastes. But I recall quite specifically the moment I first heard Public Enemy and Anthrax get together on the "Bring the Noise" collab, and I don't think that moment can be understated. PE's Apocalypse '91 was the first hip-hop record I ever bought, and some of my rap friends begrudgingly started dipping a toe into Metallica. Kinda opened up new worlds for a lot of kids who were stuck on one side or the other previously.
I think the problem is that 2000's metal WAS so mainstream. It was mainstream because of its catchiness and relative approachability. But that isn't what keeps most people coming back. I'm still a metalhead and I've transitioned to heavier forms of metal like death metal and prog metal because it has the depth that most mainstream 2000's metal lacked, and because I've listened to metal so long I can find these heavier subgenres more palatable than I would have before.
it's true, metal isn't very mainstream but the bands have a lot more longevity because the fans they get tend to cling to them. it's a double edged sword in a way, because often those same fans react very badly to seeing their favourite bands change their sound over time
@@monicaleonte8913 It can work though. Some bands change their sound a lot, but people still love them. Sigh is very different now from how they were in the 90s, but people still love them. People don't hate change necessarily, they just hate poor changes.
@GlumpusMumpus this is perhaps best exemplified by Between the Buried and Me. A band that broadly speaking can do pretty much anything and the fans at large will like it in time
Everyone has that one cultural moment that got them into metal. I still remember the first time hearing Linkin Park on the radio in Elementary School. It had an energy that wasn’t like anything i had heard before. That band was my gateway into Nu Metal bands of the time like Slipknot, SOAD, and Korn. From then on my interest expanded into bands like Children of Bodom and In Flames, etc. as I explored the sub genres of metal. Metal has an accessibility challenge today I think. For those that find excitement exploring the sub-genres, they’ll naturally wander into metal. But, a huge quantity of listeners from the 90s and 2000s never branched too far from the Nu Metal and Grunge pushed by media at the time.
100% agree: 1st time I heard any heavy music was actually on TV, I think some kind of weekend "showcase", showing off whatever was released recently. I still remember being (like) "what is this?!" XD
As a black metalhead high school in the early 2000s lol in a mostly black school I can tell you it was hard lol. That and to be honest when was the last time you heard any one talk about System Of A Down 😂 WOW
There's a Millennial's Hard Rock station here in Buffalo. I don't listen to it personally, but a coworker had it on yesterday and Diary of Jane played!! I ALMOST sang along! LoL
On a somewhat related note check out Denzel Curry's cover of Bulls on Parade for Tripe J. Its one of the best metal covers I've ever heard/seen period.
graduated from high school just slightly over a year ago. there’s two main reasons, as somehow who listens to mainly hip-hop and metal, why hip-hop reigns supreme when it comes to youth culture and staying relevant, and metal trails far behind. the first thing is that metal refuses to evolve, and when it does “gatekeepers” trash on it. second is that the public opinion, especially amongst the young people i’ve known for a majority of my life besides close friends, is that metal/emo/punk fans are violent, anti-social, or unpleasant uncool people, most likely due to how these stereotypes are portrayed in pop culture. there’s nothing glamorous or suave about suffocation, carcass, or dying fetus.
@UCQeipbDQcwrls3Wq79DpMjw Also Pantera was the biggest metal band in the turn of the century, and Phil promoted extreme stuff like black and death metal, hell he was in a BM band himself with Maniac from Mayhem amon others, these days he wears Portal and Deathspell omega shirts, and yet? Extreme metal is extremely niche and it will remain that way because of music itself and nothing else. It's too harsh and offensive to be mainstream, and that's good. Lol fuckin Playboi carti said he listens to Mayhem in an interview, is that gonna change something? Nah.
I think it’s also just nowhere near as hooky as pop and hip hop, as someone who likes rock music I can’t remember a single chorus, but you can remember almost any hook to a pop or hip hop song by the 5th listen, and since the culture has moved closer and closer towards very catchy hooks, metal completely ignored that and got left in the dust. The few metal bands that actually pay attention to hooks IE: Bring Me The Horizon are the most successful bands
@@Viper-dz2kw I’d say unlike the majority of mainstream Pop or Hip-Hop though, Metal is a very riff laden genre. The "catchiness" or focal point is going to be in the riffs a lot of the time, not necessarily choruses. And riffs don’t sell much anymore these days. The songwriting philosophies between these genres are just fundamentally different. Also the amount of sub genres it has is probably intimidating to newcomers (with more than half of them being too niche or inaccessible by design. e.g. Black Metal or Death Metal) on top of everything else listed.
Unfortunately, most people would rather listen to some generic Death Metal or Grindcore band recycling the same riffs and lyrical cliches than an Experimental or Post Metal band utilising stuff like Drone, Jazz, Industrial Music and field recordings. The Metalhead community is mostly full of gatekeepers and neckbeards, the exception being fans of those aforementioned Experimental genres. Plus there's the sexism and homophobia, particularly sexism. No wonder Punk bands hated Metal in their time and wound up paving the way for strong female artists, and even all-female bands.
yea Underground shaped like 80% of my taste, played the hell out of it daily for years and it opened my mind to harsher stuff like High on Fire and Mastodon, and to some underground-ish hip hop from that period
I was very into metal when I was younger but I found myself just drifting out of it over time and now none of it is very interesting to me. I can't really pinpoint why, I think maybe it just feels like only really obscure bands are doing anything interesting in the genre. Diablo Swing Orchestra is the only metal band that's really held my attention in recent years and a lot of metalheads probably wouldn't call it real metal.
@Werse Varsity deathcore also brings in other genres of metal into their music, like Lorna shore has symphonic and black metal influence, which makes it more interesting than typical metal.
@Werse Varsity While there are quite a few interesting new Deathcore bands, i wouldn"t call it the only exciting genre whatsoever. Technical Death Metal is going really strong, Black Metal keeps giving more and less surprising stuff, and in general there"s enough good new metal out there. a bigger problem i"d see is finding it, 10 years ago you could just discover those things randomly on social media, but now it"s all echo chamber or curated stuff
DSO is cool, but I kinda tapped out after Pandora's Pinata. They did everything I needed from their style of music on their first three albums, and I come back to them here and there.
I agree. I used to like it as a teenager but these days the only metal band I listen to is Meshuggah. I have no idea why that band in particular has continued to feel relevant in my life. They also make the greatest gym music of all time (Marrow and Combustion are probably the greatest workout songs ever made)so that helps!
You gotta get into metal again, many bands are releasing new and interesting albums all the time. If you can't find these albums, that's kind of on you. You have the entire internet at your disposal, so if you can't find new stuff then that's not the genre's fault.
It should be remembered that Rock replaced Jazz in commercial mainstream similar to the way Hip Hop replaced Rock. Was there still Jazz after that? Sure. Did it continue to grow? Definitely. Who knows that? Jazz, and Rock/Metal both have their communities and both remain vibrant forms even while remaining at the center of popular attention. Here's the thing: would Hip Hop have come along if Jazz never fell out of favor? Maybe metal not being popular any longer will lead to something else. ALSO- can you please do a video on the Charlie Rose roundtable between Stanley Crouch, Russel Simmons, and KRS One? I'd love to hear your take.
@@emperoraurelian7114 its not self hating, metal is best when it's not trying to appeal to a wide audience but rather pushing things to extremes, at least musically speaking.
It's just kind of the natural evolution of music genre I believe. After a while it becomes hard to innovate anything new that fits strict criteria of what defines a genre of music. Possibly should ask a music theorist, of which there are a few really cool ones on UA-cam, notably the guy of channel 12 tone is a metal head that fell in love with music. It's actually more exciting to see where metal and other dead or dying genres pop up. There's a really awesome Indian folk music and metal mash up I've seen recently. Old forms of rock always seem to pop up somewhere in Japan from time to time too including hair bands and metal, or at least their influence.
yup traditional metal is pretty boring, now all the newer metal bands are some funky subgenre, even the older bands have to change it up/be able to do something other bands cant to stay relevant. All the mainstream innovation seems to be happening in combining pop + metal
It has been awesome seeing more non-white people show up in metal lately. Tosin Abasi is obviously a pretty big star now (and a fucking demon of a guitarist), but seeing guys like Arka'n out of Togo means we're getting all sorts of new sounds coming in too
Trap metal basically has allowed metal to use hip-hop to have an afterlife. There's an opportunity to resurrect in the mainstream if metalheads want to use it.
@@The_ScapeGoat mate I just want more people making metal. If it's only white men, we as listeners are missing out on what most of the world could be making. I'm not asking for fewer white men doing it, I'm asking for more of everyone doing it
Also as far as the "missing out on Meme's" part of the discussion, there's a whole small ecosystem of memeing on metal from UA-camrs like Jared Dines, Steve Terreberry (though not exclusively metal), and Nik Nocturnal making himself essentially a meme in the Metal Community
Loved this. I probably would listen to you two talk for hours lol. I am interested in the whole music divide question that FD brought up, because even though everyone has access to all music, doesn’t mean they actually would be listening to like Thugger AND Dorian Electra or w/e. The social context I grew up in had a huge influence on my music taste, and even HOW I listened to music (streaming a lot of short-lived warped-tour bands on myspace for example), because that’s what the older kids I hung out with did when I started high school.
growing up a black metalhead who also loved history, instantly fell in love with System of a Down,toxicity record in particular, through Daron Malakian i got more into Slayer and death metal and i just love hardcore, finding bad brains was so heartwarming to have a band like that, be the nucleus of hardcore and that even spread a positive message! ill always love metal and punk, its brought tons of cathartic experiences to me
Whoaaa.. the algorithm must be getting sophisticated. I've been watching these two a lot lately and I was just thinking a collab between the two would be fun.
Glad to see Melon expound on metal a bit more. I know he listens to metal and likes quite a bit of it, but people always ask his opinions about hip hop and rarely do I see them asking him about metal. Great video!
Metal was harmed by gatekeepers who thought they could shun everyone who didn’t conform to whatever they defined as “metal”. It’s stupid because any style of music is basically ethereal as it’s always a constant metamorphosis.
Listened to a lot to post-hardcore music in middle school and high school. There was something also called metalcore. An example is Bring Me the Horizon. There’s so many sub genres of metal and punk and it gets so confusing. These genres/sub genres have so much in common, and that should be acknowledged rather than labeling and grouping things too much. These bands evolve so much to the point they’ll transcend genres. What was so cool about Warped Tour festival is that all genres could coalesce and blend with equal appreciation.
metalcore is very different from hardcore though. it's the bridge between hardcore punk and metal. the problem is that so much of metalcore barely resembles hardcore anymore, lol. I do agree that metal subgenres can be overly taxonomical. power metal in particular is literally just trad heavy metal with synths and escapist fantasy lyrics. you can just as easily put Sanhedrin next to Wolf or Judas Priest and there is barely a sonic difference in terms of appeal. speed metal is just trad heavy metal with faster performances too. most people who like one are almost certainly going to like the other.
I think a bigger problem is that so many kids just listen to whatever's on a pre-built Spotify playlist like New Music Friday which doesn't include much outside of Pop, Hip-hop, and R&B, maybe some soft rock.
I don't know if that's true for everyone. Spotify algorithm probably gives highly individual playlist for each person. Media used to be centralized but now it's personalized.
@@hamobu yeah that's how I feel about the internet/social media in general. I'm in my late 20s and can relate to people my age about shows and reruns we'd watch after school. There were few things to watch so we all kind of saw the same things. And now it's so easy to get caught up in our special niche interests. I haven't had cable in forever. I don't listen to the radio anymore. My recommended are so tailored to my interests, can I expect other people to get me when I talk about what I like? "Video killed the radio star." This just keeps happening though, like huh it's been my turn to worry about the next generation.
@@justanothercutefreak I think that things are changing, but it might be for the better. I am 44 and I grew up mindlessly consuming content. Seems to me that kids today are not only consumers but also creators. I can honestly say that making a meme or dancing on Tik Tok is better than watching Beavis and Butthead on TV which is what my generation did.
@@hamobu I really appreciate this reminder. I get what you mean actually. I've been going through an existential crisis (although I've been told this one is normal for my age), doubting if I have community, work keeps me drained and I just consume my recommended because it's easy. I'm slowly figuring it out though. I started teaching highschoolers and they inspire me so much because of how much they try to do. New doesn't have to be bad, I just have to figure out how to make it work in my favor which takes time and practice.
This conversation really makes me feel old now. It got me reminiscing about 20+ years ago when whole genres of music & artist and bands all had diversity in their sound.
I kinda think the death of commerical metal is what the Metal Community wanted. While bands like Disturbed and Korn got huge off MTV and radio play, bands like Megadeth and Metallica had so many people writing them off as they achieved that same level of success after ~10 years of work in pubs and small theaters. Every band that saw mainstream success had an equal number of people who disliked it, sometimes just because it was successful. I think the community (or some parts of it) didn't want to be associated with the cheesy shit in M/V's like that korn one. Probably ties in too alot of young white metalheads having the same problems you identified with the edgelord stuff. They feel ostracized and criticized by society, and Metal is a form of strength and resistance, and it's almost a whole lifestyle in itself rather then just music. When it becomes a joke or a meme, I think it's hard for those people to accept as it means a lot to them. Even worse when it becomes part of the society the lyrics often criticize; so many bands in the 80's hated MTV, but by 93' they were all over it. As an adult I can separate myself from it and see the humor in some of it, but when I was 17, not so much.
Many good points that have substance I believe but as I stated in another comment thread, a big part for a lot of fans is also just taste. Nu metal or Core is so different musically from death, thrash, doom, black etc that fans of said genres will hear Nu Metal and it’s nothing like the music they like, appreciate and respect. It’s just totally different
@@baptizednblood6813 I think some Nu/Core stuff has roots in older styles. Some Nu metal has similar sounds to industrial/groove metal, and even doom/stoner. Some 90's metalcore I've heard gets close to death metal, and again industrial/groove. As someone who grew up more with the Pop-Emo/Core era, alot of my friends loved thrash and metal/death/whatever-core. The dividing line in both I think is the vocals; the rapping in nu-metal and screaming in 00's core really didn't appeal to some people. But on the other hand, some of those bands were huge. I remember being a teenager and hating how "all the girls only like fake metal", and watching alot of my friends go over to that side, rather then getting into 90s Death Metal like I did. I was very much speaking from my own experiences, and how I view me and people who thought the same then, now. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but I feel like it's at least some part of that.
Nah. Metallica sold 125 million records. You can't tell me there's 125 million dedicated Metallica haters. The fact is the haters are just a very, very loud minority. Emphasis on minority. Go look at an average Metallica vid and the comments are by and large very positive.
My absolute favorite is watching Black people react to the rock and metal music they would side eye me for repping as a teen and young adult and LOVE IT. This is OUR music too! Tina Bell, A BLACK WOMEN, PAVED THE WAY for grunge and metal we have today. Negro spirituals and plantation hymns, blues, rock. We brought it. Just no credit.
Disclaimer: I am not black. I claim no authority on black culture and what benefits it. I disagree that it is a good thing. You can find the videos you describe everywhere, but you (almost) never see videos of rock and metal fans reacting positively to hip hop music. You will find people in the comments of the videos you describe in which rock and metal fans wax lyrical about 'uniting' and 'sharing' across genres. I guarantee you NONE of these people would be caught dead listening to hip hop. They see themselves as above it. These viewers watch and like these videos because it feeds into the old propaganda that white music is 'real music'. Thus, they see black people listening to white music instead of black music as a cultural victory. Now I want to make it clear that I really want to be wrong about this. I, for one, agree that black people have been shut out of rock and metal for too long, which is supported by how many black rock and metal acts are straight-up phenomenal (shout out to Living Colour and Mother's Finest). But again, I think it is a mistake to assume these videos are a sign of progress. They are not unifying, they are assimilationist.
@@icanusernamebetterthanyou3853 i agree. metalheads are super closeminded generally. alot of them are elitists. its really annoying. wanting to get into metal more myself. but i know most metalheads would never try and do that themselves and would just look down on it.
@@icanusernamebetterthanyou3853 I don’t remember saying it is objectively “good” or “unifying”. Maybe some have. I was saying that it was cool personally to see Black people embrace things that I, another Black person like and discover what’s actually also really just a part of their roots that’s been appropriated. This is actually a complex topic because is it assimilation if it was appropriated to begin with? I was also adopted by white people so I was forced to assimilate and grew up listening to folk, country or classic rock and it evolved into metal being my favorite genre for reasons more representative of political leanings, but if a Black woman paved the way for grunge and metal as it is today then how have I really assimilated rather than embraced inspirational roots? I’ve seen plenty of “metalheads react” to Hip-Hop, Rap, R&B and genuinely enjoy it. It has been more of the mainstream stuff so does that mean they actually don’t like it and it’s racial? I couldn’t say without more examination. You probably have a point, but as someone raised in a predominantly white culture I’ve seen way too many white folks who actually only listen to hip-hop, by way of appropriation? Often. As far as my prior loving of Slipknot being assimilation, even though I’m from Iowa, mayhaps, but it’s the lyrics and instrumentals that get me as well as the “punk anarchism”. What brings me even greater joy is seeing Black reacts to RATM because Black radicalization and liberation need to get on it or unification is again not happening. Is RATM saying things Black people don’t already know? No. But they’re saying it with leftist enthusiasm. Hip-Hop is storytelling lived experiences. Where my leftist Rappers at?
Metal has some absolutely incredible stuff going on. I think the genre bending of modern metal bands is incredible - I'm thrilled bands wear influences from other corners of the music world on their sleeves. But, I agree with @cfg1991 that the barrier to entry is maybe higher than it's been since the 60/70s, mainly due to the prevalence of dirty vocals and a deemphasis of crossover friendly melodies in favor of highly technical instrument work.
Being born in 1991 ,I loved alternative subcultures since I was little and I have gone through the many "arcs" of my own. From being the typical early-mid 2000s nu metal kid to the ultra super serious black and death metal fan to then experimenting with a wider variety dark-but-not-metal musicians like e.g Chelsea Wolfe to even rappers like Bones etc. I have never really left the metal/ rock scene. As I have grown older, especially in the last 3-4 years I am back to the 80s full circle enjoying AOR,"hair" and glam. Honestly, as much as people hated parts of the 80s for being cheesy, I really wish we had a mainstream "rockstar" revival age. Just big hair, animal prints, catchy tunes and a hell of a good time ! The music scene has become too boring in its own attempt to take itself too seriously.
This bro, like once enough time as passed , people tend to appreciate the music, music needs to change and evolve and then we cycle back, it’s a never ending circle sometimes
I think a problem in metal music right now is that it is just kinda too afraid to be authentically cheesy. Like when I put on Powerwolf, I am transported to a guy standing next to a pot of melted cheese, and he points at the cheese, and says "don't we sure have a lot of cheese?" but he's lactose intolerant and won't ever actually interact with the cheese. Meanwhile, when I listen to Rhapsody of Fire, I am transported to a lake of melted cheese, and the entire band headdives off a cliff into the melted cheese, and emerge from the cheese with a shining sword made out of cheese while one of them plays a face shredding solo on a guitar also made out of cheese.
That's why I love Ghost, they get called Scooby-Doo music but that's like the whole point. They're putting the fun back into a genre that's forgotten how
@@shanearnold7781 Scooby-Doo metal?!?!🤣🤣🤣💀 I never heard that but it's TOO goddamn accurate Powerwolf is great bc I never knew if they were dead serious or not. You wanna make someone crack tf up show them a Powerwolf video with the lyrics on 🤣 it's like back in the day we used to just get high as hell and watch old school videos and laugh our ass off 🤣 King Diamond, Candlemass, Savatage all kinds of wild over-the-top music videos 😆
Any Devin Townsend fans here? While I wouldn't consider metal my favorite genre (tho I do love a lot of it), Heavy Devy is unquestionably my favorite musician.
An other theory that I believe in, is that the interest for hard sounding music but still being accessible is now provided by hardstyle and other hard dance subgenres, like hardcore, hard techno, hard trance and frenchcore. Especially here in Europe. And I have the feeling that the love and need for those genres it's getting bigger per year. For example Defqon.1, one of the biggest hard dance festivals in Europe, was two days and is now four days. Combine that with interesting hard dance artists popping up in America (looking at you Lil Texas) and you get no mainstream interest in other hard sounding genres like metal.
This is a dream collab for me, haha. Thanks guys! And props for using the Institutionalized beat in your videos lately. As a TPAB fanatic, i'd love to hear your personal thoughts on that album sometime. Also, I recall you mentioning in another video that you're thinking of bringing Light Work back, so I just wanted to share with you that I really enjoy that series. Thanks again!
Didn’t know I needed this collaboration, I like the dynamic pls do more. Record industry greed and the executives cutting development departments killed mainstream metal/rock and r&b. They seemed to only focus on pop and rap, promoting certain artists for financial gains. I work at a major white high school, I only hear rap, I don’t even see that mainly gothic dressed kids.
discovered classic 80s thrash metal (slayer, megadeth, metallica) in high school and am still riding it. I just can't find anything that gives me that same feeling of being like angry and fast but at the same time melodic and baroque sounding at times. I want to find new shit but every time I find something new I just wanna go back and play Seasons in the Abyss or Ride the Lightning again instead. idk
This gives me the 90's feels. I was born in 1980 and this brings back memories. I would hang out with every clique. I would hang out with the hip-hop heads (majority black), the nerds, and metal heads. I think my senior year 1999, I hung out solely with the metal heads.
One of the major reasons that Metal is still incredibly popular but not mainstream is because it isn't "fun" anymore. Metal started taking itself waaay too seriously and the mainstream stopped paying attention.
I just listened to this Deathcore band Lorna Shore that shit was impressive AF..... but maybe you're right. Idk my old favorites are still fun to me 🤷🏾♀️
@@juicyparsons Lorna Shore is fun af though! Those breakdowns are so brutal I literally lol'd the first time I heard their music. It's also a huge reason that band is blowing tf up on social media
@@justaguy7589 yes! That's the content creator I was trying to think of earlier. I like his platform. I usually don't feel too comfortable around a lot of metalheads but he has fun topics and decent politics. He's a punk dude too that's probably why
Fascinating conversation. I was into neo metal and industrial metal in middle school, so 2007-2009, but it was totally out of a desire to be "different" and cool, as a trans man who didn't even know I was trans back then. So I guess in a way it was also out of a desire to fit in with guys. Definitely fell deep into some homophobia and misogyny, anti-emo, etc. I genuinely did like the music for a while but then it became just for the image. And eventually I decided to just give it up and listen to stuff I liked, I went hard into Disney Channel stuff and pop. But Slipknot were my mains for sure even though they were well past their hayday.
I feel like metal and punk towards their end of major popularity they both become what popular hip hop is now. They both got so full of themselves and become kind of a parody of classic rock just like hip hop has gotten full of itself and has become a parody of what hip hop claims itself to be regardless of all the continued contridictions
the evolution of metalcore is probably where this conversation needs to go. a lot of the bands are knocking on the door of mainstream. Genres are blurring more and more , and with guys like MGK and Travis Barker leading the pop punk wave in the mainstream. There’s going to be a come back for rock/ metal soon
@GlumpusMumpus I mean, isn't metalcore what most of modern metal *is* nowadays? Especially the big ones? Like Spiritbox, or Knocked Loose with their Hardcore and Metalcore fusion? Yeah, metalcore passed it's popularity in the early 2000's. . . if you're only talking about the big metalcore bands in the early 2000's.
Whats funny is in countries such as Japan, metal is still a massively popular thing. Bands who perform metal still fill massive stadiums and release albums consistently (such as groups like Dir en Grey and MUCC). Totally worth checking these groups out for anyone craving some high quality modern metal.
My obstacle is that Japan seems to have embraced glam metal and power metal as their main influences, so there are very few bands I've come across that I liked consistently as opposed to just one or two songs.
@@marinakesawa7470 You're mostly right about this, i would also add that nu-metal remained a thing in Japan a lot longer than elsewhere too. They seem to have a thing for the styles of metal that get written off as cringe in other countries, hmm
Japan, Latin America, and Scandanavia are where metal still lives and thrives. Strangely, I know a couple of really good Canadian metal bands, too. Unleash the Archers rock my world.
I think love it or hate it, heavy metal/hard rock being SO FAR away from the mainstream has removed an important flavour from mainstream culture. Having SoaD, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson etc be part of the cultural milieu likely had an effect on society that couldn't be measured....I can't even say whether it was actually positive or negative due to this, but it must have affected overall attitudes at the time they were around. Also, there's no getting around this (and it was kinda touched on here in the vid), but metal in particular was a very "white" genre, and the 2010s/2020s have leaned more heavily into black (ie, hip hop-derived) culture as being dominant, certainly with younger age groups. Hip hop (and all its permutations) is here to stay. I know these have been famous last words, but I actually find it difficult to believe hip hop will get less popular in the next decade or so, I just cannot see where Western culture could plausibly shift. Luckily, a lot of the culture around hip hop is based on the notion of being successful/making money, so in a way it has a far more sutainable "platform" commercially as it fundamentally gels well with the corporate agenda....metal on the other hand REEKED of elitism and gatekeeping that shunned anything that was commercially viable. Anyone who was ever into metal knows about all the snooty, pretentious types that derided bands that didn't fit a certain style or were too mainstream/sellouts etc.
I'll be 35 this year. By high school the time I started high school in 2001, it seemed like any sort of mainstream metal was on the way out. I don't know if it was 9/11 or what. I became a metalhead (still am) alone in my bedroom on internet forums and such in my high school years, but by then I knew it was not something to play around anyone in public if surviving socially was on the table.
I'm 35 this year, too, and I think underground music is better than it's ever been. The problem with metal was when it WAS trying to become more popular. It's fine where it is - as long as we support artists, shops, distros, labels, that we love. Underground death metal, black metal, and grindcore are thriving right now. Metal UA-cam is cool. So is Metal Twitter, Instagram, and there are some solid podcasts, too. Fuck mainstream appeal.
On the subject of forgotten genres. I spent Saturday night listening to 1980's UK Mod revival bands on my old original vinyl. They were all my favourite bands at the time and I was a teeny young mod who had a gang/group/clan/tribe with fashion and lots of music and history. Tbf it was a fairly niche scene but It's almost totally forgotten about as a music scene except for maybe old farts like me. Time marches on.
Man, hearing you mention the homophobia against emo brings me back to when I was a younger man, took some friends to see The Get Up Kids on the "Something To Write Home About" tour, and my buddies complaining that it was "gay", never mind that they were singing about, you know, girls. Looking back on that wave of music it was misogynistic in retrospect, but at the time it was way less so than the other male-targeted music.
Omg loved this conversation. Was in HS in the early 2000s and I remember being early emo (BN, DC, FOB, SC, TBS, YC, BE, AR, RK, Cursive, etc.) And that whole nu metal situation (LP, SOAD, APC, 3DG, BB, Sugarcult, Korn, etc.) Was never "black enough" though I had some hip hop & r&b interests. I've enjoyed the blurring of those genre and culture lines that they were talking about at the beginning. I've also enjoyed seeing more "blerds" and black former emokids and more of the thought that we weren't alone and didn't really have to be.
I've been a metal head since '87. For me, the best stuff has ALWAYS been off of the airways. So many bands I was (and to a degree, still am) into never got airplay. Bands like Deicide, Napalm Death, Carcass, Morbid Angel, etc. Half of The Big Four never got a ton of rotation. Anthrax were my favorite band in the late 80s/early 90s and beyond a guest spot on an episode of Married with Children, I don't recall them ever getting much mainstream attention. It's one of the only good things about the internet: so many people have access to this stuff, like you both were saying.
Breaking Benjamin is the Taco Bell of alternative rock/metal. You're not getting something authentic or original, but you're getting what you came for and you're getting the same thing everytime you come in. Just crunchy Drop A# riffs, I-VI-IV-V chorus, shout-singing about existential angst or a heartless woman, like a cheesy gordita crunch to my inner emo kid.
😂🤣💀💀
They're my biggest musical guilty pleasure
@@ArmtheArmless1990 Their old shit unironically holds up to the level I liked it when I was a kid lol. Shits crazy
Ok but who does it better unironically?
Beautifully put, my friend. 🥲
The collab we didn't know we need but the collab we deserve
They both hate Drake too
I know. More please.
we don’t deserve anything good lol
metal disappeared because white masculine youth have disappeared. prove me wrong
@@emperoraurelian7114 you know Rob Halford was gay, right?
You can’t kill the metal… the metal will live on
Punk rock tried to kill the metal...
[laughs maniacally] Grunge tried to kill the metal
@@PapaSmurf11182ndwasn’t the thing about grunge is that it wasn’t really an actual set in stone genre. Like Kurt cobain was trying to do punk while the other bands were trying to do metal but because they all came from Seattle they got grouped together.
Grunge tried to kill the metal, but they cast down!!!
@@j_jizzle_69grunge was kind of a “feel”.
Alice In Chains definitely came from metal, Soundgarden from alternative rock, Pearl Jam from classic rock and Nirvana from punk, as you said.
Metal is going through the same trajectory that jazz did. It keeps getting more technical and more self serious so less and less casual listeners are interested
You don't listen to a lot of Jazz, do you ?
@@guillll nah but that doesn’t make anything I said wrong. Good luck arguing that jazz hasn’t gotten more technical or more snobby over time
I'm not on the cutting edge of jazz music but I'm a fan of the genre. I took a history of jazz class and it basically outlined what you're saying. The leaders of the genre became unconcerned with being catchy or accessible with the rise of bebop in the 1940s. People looking for more accessible music went to rhythm and blues, which led to rock, soul, disco, etc. Old jazz songs that are still widely known today were often written with some level of accessibility in mind. For
example, here's a Louis Armstrong quote from the late 1940s, admonishing the inaccessibility of the new wave of jazz music: "These young cats now they want to make money first and the hell with the music. And they want to carve everyone else because they’re full of malice, and all they want to do is show you up, and any old way will do as long as it’s different from the way you played it before. So you get all them weird chords which don’t mean nothing, and first people get curious about it just because it’s new, but soon they’ll get tired of it because it’s really no good and you got no melody to remember and no beat to dance to." As far as I'm aware, nowadays there's broadly accessible music that fits the 'jazz' label but it's more the exception than the rule.
@@UA-camUserHello sounds like Louis Armstrong felt threatened by young people doing new shit. Funny how they're only in it for the money, yet making inaccessible music for a niche audience...
Interesting thought but about 1/3 of Americans listen to jazz.
You kids will never know the struggle of being a black metal enthusiast in Chicago in the 1980s. You lead a cushy life today. We fought in the trenches. Especially people like Sig who said to people like his cousin, "Why you listenin' to white boy music?!"
I remember an interview with Fishbone where they said something about how the black community wasn't out there supporting them because they weren't making black music, and the band really seemed bothered by that.
As a white dude, I never really understood why rock and heavy music got cut out of black music. Because, from what I remember, it was always black music, and more.
@@rugierro the white run music industry is to thank for that.
@@KhayJayArt White guy music industry types are responsible for a whole bunch of underhanded crap.
I don't think they are at fault for convincing black audiences that Fishbone wasn't black music.
But maybe I'm wrong. Can you back that up?
Especially since the second wave of black metal hasn't happened yet at that time.
The New York City scene in the late '80s and early '90s was weird because there were always a few Black, Latino, or Asian people at metal shows because of the Hardcore scene in New York. Nobody ever bothered you at shows, but people outside, primarily minorities, used to have a whole bunch of questions when they saw me (a 6 foot + Black guy) wearing a Slayer or Pantera shirt. Other metal heads used to just throw up the horns as a sign of mutual respect for the bands. It kills me now to see people wearing old band shirts that probably never even listened to them. I have been guilty of taxing younger kids when I see them wearing an old-school shirt to see if they are legit 😆
Metalheads and punks being the most accepting is just such a global truth it is crazy.
I am an immigrant and have never had issues hanging out with the rockers.
I guess you are not aware of the NSBM crowd... I guess they are a not very big crowd, though...
Rockers and metal heads in real life are wonderful and accepting. Rockers and metal heads online are entitled, elitist , annoying assholes unfortunately 😑
@@ByezbozhnikThey are, in fact, a very small crowd.
@@Byezbozhnikobviously we don’t live in Norway or Sweden we live in America where alternative culture is very much left leaning
@@kibi8311 There is also NSBM in America. Like it or not, that is the alternative culture of the alternative culture...
Speaking as a once introverted black kid in junior high school and in high school, I was a closet metal core fan. I got into it not to be apart of any particular social group, but because of how popular it was in AMVs and video game montage scene on UA-cam, at the time. I just grew to enjoy the sound based on the video content that was created with it.
Did we both watch that Chop Suey/FF VII video? lol.
Im Asian. Grew up on rap because BET didnt sell out to HBO or cable.
I had an Ipod shuffle with a bunch of Linkin Park and Guns N Roses on it and from there I got into the metalcore scene in 2005.
Nowadays Im listening to deathcore and prog metal. I dont even remember the last time I listened to Nu Metal lol.
P.S yes Ive heard of the Linkin Park collab with Jay Z. That stuff still slaps til this day.
metal disappeared because white masculine youth have disappeared. prove me wrong
@@emperoraurelian7114 lol why do you keep posting this?
@@MelGibsonFan gotta get the word out
I was literally thinking a day earlier “damn, melon and fd should have a convo together” and here it is
metal disappeared because white masculine youth have disappeared. prove me wrong
thanks
You’re magical! 🪄✨
I've thought about this for some time.
The end of the nü metal era in the mid 2000s brought about the rise of metalcore which, although popular in its own right, was too extreme to cross over into pop territory, and the bands didn't express much interest in becoming mainstream celebrities.
What's more, nü metal's enormous commercial success angered so many in the metal community that its gatekeeping went into overdrive. For about a solid ten years, a lot of new bands and fans were maligned by older fans as the metal audience became increasingly obsessed with championing older bands, new bands that looked and sounded like older bands, and keeping the genre as obscure and "true" as possible. *Edit: One important thing I previously left out is that the metal community's sentiment behind the concept of "true metal" often carried racist, misogynistic and homophobic overtones.*
Cut to 2011 and, over in the hip-hop world, Odd Future's graphically dark raps, sophomoric attitude and chaotic live shows brought a new energy to both hip-hop culture and alternative culture. They opened the door for a generation of artists and converted a generation of would-be rock fans into fully embracing the weirder, edgier side of hip-hop, which was pivotal to it becoming the biggest genre in the world. Now, metal can't seem to connect with anyone under the age of 25, and if you saw a kid that looks like they just left Hot Topic, they're more likely to be into Playboi Carti than Slipknot.
Metal created a chasm between itself and the mainstream that is just getting bigger with time.
Metal was always destined to reject the mainstream. Metal is a rejection of humanity and group mentality and the socially acceptable "metal" that panders to big audiences doesn't sit well within that ethos. In a way it's a blessing. Metal is now finally allowed to be itself in the underground because the people who want to be popular yet edgy will now make hip hop. Nice analysis.
Agreed, but the thing is, the aspects nu metal challenged about the metal scene were those of virtuosity and technical integrity, replacing riffs with muddy, downtuned drop chords or just blaring out open chords.
Of course the metal community found this pretty insulting, as it was clear the edges were getting clipped off only for attaining mainstream success, which just wasn't a priority for most metal fans anyway, who naturally suspicious of mainstream ambitions.
note that i live in france so what i'm gonna say might not be true for you but i remember that the second ghost got popular and started getting mainstream recognition by winning a grammy, suddenly every metal fan i knew who had liked them started debating whether they were "real" metal or not (not to mention the weird homophobia around them started getting worse)
this is still ongoing, the second they got announced at hellfest i started seeing those people whining about it. to me they're such a good case study of that very elitist attitude that goes "this band is getting popular so we don't like them anymore", from underground darlings to most hated bands by True Fans almost overnight.
In the mid 2000s we had this neat metalcore scene in my area. It was a load of fun and most of the bands were decent we even had a couple of recognized underground groups came through our town. As cool as all that was there was a bit of elitism among the fans and musicians. Like if you didn't look the part then they didn't want you there... and if you tried too hard they'd pull pot-shots in the pit. Metalcore is ok but it was destined to go the way of the Dodo because of that elitism, in my opinion. Metal in general has issues with that but the metalcore kids I knew took it to another level. All the old farts going on about Megadeth still and the youngins were saying "git brootal detune guitar." Elitism all around.
you're so wrong lol, every metal show ive been to recently had a large contingent of young people who couldn't possibly have been listening to the band when they first broke.
I’m actually very happy that metal has gone back to the underground. The reemergence of death metal in particular is some of the best we’ve had in years. The main stream may have fell off but the underground is alive and well!
@Lars Steffen Same! Like some really kick ass talent out there. 200 stab wounds, Sanguisugabogg, Coffin Rot, Church of Digust, just the name of quick few! Maggot Stomp at a label is bringing out some great bands too. The rise of Death is here.
Loving the new wave of death metal too my dude! Undeath🤌🤘
I highly suggest Panopticon. Dude records all the instruments and vocals himself. Literal 1 man band, I love that shit
I got super stoked on the new wave of death metal and it’s sick that bands like Blood Incantation and Tomb Mold are successful and moving the genre forward it’s just annoying that there’s a giant chasm between the not-so-underground underground metal bands and, like, Sleep Token, Lorna Shore, Slaughter to Prevail, Polyphia, Spiritbox and Bad Omens in terms of popularity
what’s funny is even Blood Incantation and Tomb Mold are exponentially more popular than the “real” underground bands
Since this seems like a good thread to ask for it: any current bands to check out if I am into the sound of ~2000s era In Flames? Whoracle, Clayman, Reroute etc. Obviously doesn't have to be a replica.
OMG the combo I never knew I needed
My theory is that rock radio seemed to just about refuse to pickup on metalcore or post-hardcore when that was what almost every rock or metal fan was listening to by 2010. They seemed to try to maintain the relevance of artists whose time had been a decade prior. Even as a fan of those alternative metal bands like Chevelle, Seether, System of a Down, Staind, Breaking Benjamin, etc. it was still frustrating because I could see the genre getting held back from any transformative effort.
My second theory is that in the age of the internet, it’s cheaper and more convenient to learn how to produce electronic music as opposed to playing electric music. My ideal guitar rig still isn’t finished and I’ve probably spent well over 6k on it at this point. Music production of hip-hop or electronic music with today’s software (and let’s be real, the many ways the internet makes it possible to acquire such software) doesn’t require nearly that much investment and we never really recovered from the 2008 recession regardless of what the parties have said. If you are of a young generations, the ones producing most of the art, your financial prospects are probably not considered that great and so the more affordable means of music making are naturally going to gain more steam
Yeah it is the real reason rap is very easy to make compared to Rock/Metal and you don't even need a band you can do everything by yourself a beat and rap to it.
this comment pretty much nails a lot of it
yeah I'm surprised neither of them brought up electronic music. Dubstep was a splash in the pot for the early 2010s in hindsight, but it garnered a ton of popularity online, and speaking from experience, pulled me away from listening to metal for a long time. Now I have a much broader taste in music which includes things like ambient/chill and highly produced orchestral-type electronic music, alongside a list of staple metal music that has mostly kept the same 100 artists with a couple albums to each.
It's just really difficult to maintain a constantly evolving musical palette while growing older. You learn what you like fairly adolescently, and the longer you stray from that era, the harder it is to retrain your ears and mind to enjoy newer or less familiar music. Hell, even the bands that I listened to religiously when I was younger, I struggle to garner a welcoming ear to their newer albums where they pop up. Some of those bands have been consistently putting out records since I was a teenager, and I can't bring myself to just open up their repertoire and delve into new stuff, simply because it sounds fundamentally different to what I learned to like about them. And that speaks 100% to my own faults as a pure listener, and I also recognize the insane skill and dedication to their own craft that keeps bands staying together and continually putting out and evolving their music.
Yes. I hate it when people cite modern technology as a reason for any music to be more popular and accessible now but that's not the case. Electronic music and beats are so easy to make and distribute that any record company wanting to make money will pick up on it and leave the rest in the dust. As for the radio, I agree in an even broader sense. I know so many people who listened to metal but don't anymore because after burning through the types of artists you listed, they had no where else to go with the genre.
@@macaron3141592653 I fucking doubt you can make electronic music
As a huge fan of metal and also your work this is a fun collision of worlds! While metal is definitely thriving in terms of the diversity of sounds it encompasses currently, i feel like the combination of fans being gatekeepy and the music industry not seeing much reason to showcase it to a wider audience are big factors why it gets less attention and airtime than other genres nowadays. There is also a general acquired taste element to harsh music that will always to some extent limit its appeal.
my thoughts exactly
I think after the alt metal era, modern metal bands are either still on that sound or doing things that arent accesible to the general public
it doesn't need that attention, its thriving as an underground scene. it may not be popular, but the people who do listen to it tend to be far more motivated to attend shows than average fans of rap music.
@@phorestpsy216 yes, no one attends rap shows, which is why 8 people were trampled to death at a Travis Scott performance
@@khodges72 rap mega stars are different imo and I think there is truth to what he’s saying. You’ll get so many more people going to local venues to see local hardcore and metal bands than local rappers. Not to mention the energy is totally different. Sometimes I swear the main reason local rock bands get so much attention is because people want a socially acceptable place to mosh and be jack asses and honestly I see why and I love it. Local rappers will be legitimately talented but you’ll seem to only see a handful of people just standing around and tapping their feet like the goth kids from South Park or just sitting around. I get the sense that rappers just go from zero to a hundred purely by marketing their music on SoundCloud to a world wide audience before getting success doing live shows, but it seems like rock bands will jump straight into live shows and instantly start getting support from their local scene and attaining crazy energy from the crowd. Then again I’m from Fort Wayne so the local rap scene might be completely different in places like Atlanta or Memphis etc.
it's so fun going back to this, because in the last 8 months "divorced dad rock" and bands like staind and creed are making a big comeback.
In retrospect Stain'd had massive Divorced Kid energy so it makes sense that 20 years later they have such Divorced Dad energy
Divorced to Dad energy is hilarious😅
It's not really a comeback, though. The same thing happened with bands like Motley Crue in the mid-2000s.
The entire Metalocalypse series is a formative memory for me, and I still get the giggles remember it. Obviously being from Iowa and being a youngin’ in the 2000’s, mentioning slipknot also unlocks many more early memories. This video was a whole wave of nostalgia to be honest hahah
I LOVE THIS SHOW SO MUCH. and being an active fan in 2022 hasn't gotten easier
Metalocalypse is to metal what The Big Bang Theory is to nerd culture.
I gotta think that a part of the un-mainstreaming of metal has to do with how Eminem singlehandedly scooped up a huge market share of those who might otherwise be numerous but more surface level metal fans, via perceived attitudes or aesthetics, etc. Buncha edgy young dudes who would have eaten up metal back when if Mr. Shady wasn't constantly bouncing around in their heads
This comment needs to be boosted more. Pure facts were written here
All the edgy white boys that would've been moshing turned to rap to seem tough
Its amazing how many Black Metal fans love Eminem in 2022.
@@johnindigo5477 I suppose so. But I'm wondering, if they chose to listen to Rap rather than Black Metal, why didn't black & brown kids get into Black Metal or Hardcore in the same way ?
@@tudormiller887 It was never marketed to them. There are very few marketed black metal musicians. you have to actively search to find them. And then black metal musicians marketed to black youth? There is probably an aspect of black appropriation going on here. The flow tends to be black community -> white people adjacent to black community -> mainstream white community. Cultural products don't tend to go the other way.
Loved this!! An all-female metal band that I liked around this time was called Kittie. If you like Slipknot, you may want to give them a try. ALSO the O'Keefe Foundation has a series of kids singing Slipknot and other metal songs from this time...we had Kidz Bop. haha
so many great bands with all women or women as vocalists these days as well! I haven't gotten into Kittie yet, but I'll recommend some of these modern bands for those interested in getting into (relatively) underground metal:
on the more accessible, lighter end, I'd point to stuff like Sonja (helmed by Melissa Moore, the former guitarist from Apsu who completely destroyed them after they kicked her out for coming out as trans), Nova Twins, Battle Beast, Project: Roenwolfe (Alicia Cordisco is actually the guitarist of that band, and she is easily the best part of their last album), Sanhedrin, Code Orange, Blackwater Holylight, Unleash the Archers, Lucifer, Ithaca, Midnight Dice/Satan's Hallow (their vocalist was also in High Spirits back in the day and one of my friends loves the fuck outta that band), and End Boss. Transgressive (also with Cordisco as guitarist & vocalist) is also a really good thrash band whose lyrics deal with topics such as incels, transphobia (Cordisco is one of the most prominent trans women in metal), and misogyny. Anthony doesn't really dig them, tho I'd absolutely recommend Spiritbox as well. Courtney LaPlante is one of the few metalcore vocalists I can stand and she's an incredible vocalist. FFO really hooky metal and/or technical performances, and a mix of earpiercing screams and mostly beautiful cleans.
for extreme metal, I'd point out Venom Prison, Exulansis, Svalbard, Arch Enemy, Oceans of Slumber (one of the few metal bands whose lead singer is a Black woman, and they're very underappreciated), Darkher, Mortal, Thou + Emma Ruth Rundle, Nervosa, Cretin, and Aephanemer (who are actually a really good introductory death metal band since they're symphonic and have some honest to god hooks).
@@MelMelodyWerner check out Paper doll.
@@MelMelodyWerner there is sadly no way to save a comment on UA-cam for all these recommended bands
Kittie were fucking amazing and RAW as fuck. the debut was a nu metal masterpiece (paperdoll especially), the succeding albums went more into death metal territory. thanks for reminding me, it's been some months since i last gave them a spin.
Check out, Derketa, Mythic or Gilgamesh for anyone interested in all women death metal bands. Also Larve, a newer band with a woman vocalist. Or Cerebral Bore. There’s more but I can’t think of them
Growing up loving Disturbed and then seeing them cover _The Sound of Silence_ is like watching your favorite uncle getting drunk and trying to fight people at the BBQ.
I fell off of listening to Disturbed in the late 00s so I looked it up and tho clearly many like it for their own personal reasons...oh my what TF was that? .__.
I actually loved the sound of silence cover
I honestly don't think it's that bad, especially that live version.
Shout was the original awkward Disturbed cover... but it grew on me.
You may have your opinion but, I think Dave did very well with that cover. He has the vocal chops to make that song both deep, emotional, and manly. I hope he uses his opportunities to take his vocal talents into fun territories.
Thanks for the shoutout!
u guys gotta collab!!
Glad they praised Iowa. Slipknot became a band that a lot of people loved to hate, which I always felt was unjustified. Those first two slipknot albums hit like a damn freight train to this day. Early Slipknot and System Of A Down (all of their albums) are the rare bands I listened to as a kid which I still love to this day. There was so much crap I listened to at that time, but there's a few gems from that era that aged remarkably well.
The idea of coming to a group of Metalheads and saying 'I like Metallica' ruining the mood is relatable and funny to me because I'm kinda That Person? My taste was massively shaped by playing GTA Vice City at an impressionable age and despite being born in the early 90s I just chased after stuff from the 70s and the 80s, with SOME of that 2000s Mainstream Metal. The other month I shared an Epsilon Zero track I ran across (the vocalist does Retsuko's metal singing voice) and praised the Generic North American Male Clean Vocals and was then ethered out of existence by someone posting Cannibal Corpse. Turning into a corn cob as I realise that the stuff I like is best summarised as 'easy listening for lapsed metalheads'
Being a fan of Metallica, or any of the Big 4 is so tiring - zoomers will call you "old-fashioned" and "dad rock"; boomers will call you "overrated" and "sellouts". The fuck am I supposed to listen? Never saw this happening with pop or rap.
The video should've been titled: "Anthony Fantano reluctantly looks back on his days as a Nu Metal fan, but won't admit it today"
Oh man I LOVE Metalocalypse... I saw Dethklok "live" in 2008 and they rocked my face off. So good!!
As a highschooler myself, you did nail it about the internet removing boundaries. I, a white kid, got into Gambino and neo-soul from other white kids, indie on my own, afrobeat from a black kid, reggae from an afrobeat playlist (dont ask idk either), bossa nova from a sample I heard from a rapper reccomended by a black friend... there's just so much diversity in gen z culture, and we're growing up with every possible culture at our fingertips. It's fucking beautiful.
mfw gen z thinks they invented growing up on the internet
this is straight up millennial erasure
metal disappeared because white masculine youth have disappeared. prove me wrong
I'm gay
@@methyod these 2 guys are millenials, gen zers from day dot grew up on the internet
yeah im 22 at the moment but in high school I basically found music I liked from extremely obscure and unexpected places on the internet. I started listening to Mobb Deep because I was trying to shazam a song and it came up with a Mobb Deep song that sounded nothing like what I was trying to find. that introduced me to boom bap an 90's hip hop in general. found a remix of a lil ugly mane song on some random dj mix that slowly introduced me to memphis rap, one of my favourite genres of all time. some of my favourite albums I found from random facebook groups. just the other day some random alvin and the chipmunks sludge metal mix came up on my youtube reccomendation which led me to listening to more sludge metal which i really started to enjoy.
This conversation feels like reminiscing with old friends - I also lived the "metal kid in high school" life and eventually branched out to more diverse musical taste. But I still have such a soft spot for some of that (arguably disposable) metal... to the point where I'm probably the one guy still checking out the new records and going to shows from bands that played Ozzfest 1999!
Excited for this conversation and all the recommendations in the comments. I’m not a metal head, but SOAD was def brought back into heavy rotation summer of 2020. As someone who was socialized to play the role of “polite, high achieving, model minority”, metal (and a bit of screamo) gave me a space to express and explore some of my unadulterated rage that felt too chaotic and explosive to feel at home in hip hop.
i moved from playing sports to playing punk music in high school and the speed at which my old sports 'friends' disappeared was a lesson ill never forget. the punks and weirdos were entirely fine with being a diverse group of outcasts, but you had to be yourself to join. those sports dudes are 40something now and still havent figured that bit out.
I want anger in my mainstream music again, it's therapeutic.
Why does it need to be mainstream though, just look for music
Infant annihilator
can't rap be aggressive enough?
Especially during these fucked up times! We need a recession riot soundtrack 😤😭
@@MelMelodyWerner props for mentioning Khemmis. Amazing band!
Big “metal” fan in high school in the early 2010’s, but it was really non-commercial stuff I got from friends/guitar forums. Most of what the metalheads in my circles listened to was djent & metalcore since that was the trendy shit at the time. Periphery was a big one, alongside Protest the Hero, Between the buried and me, Human Abstract, etc.
“Metal” is in quotes above because telling a metalhead that the above bands are metal could cause an argument lol. Strictly speaking it’s somewhere between metal and punk. But still!
Hell yeah lamb of God got me started in heavier. Oh and fuses metal show was the goat.
I love Periphery and PTH for being metal with pop(Periphery) and punk/core(PTH) elements. I would never lump them with classic metal or heavy metal as they in my opinion step outside of that traditional metal sound.
I would be a casual in both fandoms, lol. But. Damn! Stoked for this
I know like a few songs from different genres, often the mainstream ones lol
"Good inadvertent Kendrick and Fidlar references there."
Metal may not be super mainstream, but it's in a oretty healthy place imo, all the bands I like are touring hard and selling tickets and merch. Its a bit of a cottage industry, but one thats very much alive
Deftones are easily the most respected band the metal peak of the 2000s that's still going strong. Never sold out and still hugely relevant
Tool
@@canismajoris6733 right
Korn , Metallica
Yes because of tiktok emos
It's Avenged Sevenfold
Damn FD is popping
I went to Ozzfest 07 when I was 16 and it was bands like Behemoth, Lamb of God, Nile, Daath, In This Moment, Static X, Hatebreed, 3 Inches of Blood, Ankla and a couple others. It was pretty sick, also Ozzfest was free that year
Love that you’re a Tool fan!!! They’re great and you’re great :)
Pushit is a badass song
I grew up in the 80's, and there was definitely a huge divide between the metal and hip-hop scenes. Most of my friends were into hip-hop, me and like one other guy were into metal, and we were friends but we would routinely bag on each other for our divergent musical tastes.
But I recall quite specifically the moment I first heard Public Enemy and Anthrax get together on the "Bring the Noise" collab, and I don't think that moment can be understated. PE's Apocalypse '91 was the first hip-hop record I ever bought, and some of my rap friends begrudgingly started dipping a toe into Metallica. Kinda opened up new worlds for a lot of kids who were stuck on one side or the other previously.
love that institutionalized instrumental on the intro, one of my all-time favorites
I think the problem is that 2000's metal WAS so mainstream. It was mainstream because of its catchiness and relative approachability. But that isn't what keeps most people coming back. I'm still a metalhead and I've transitioned to heavier forms of metal like death metal and prog metal because it has the depth that most mainstream 2000's metal lacked, and because I've listened to metal so long I can find these heavier subgenres more palatable than I would have before.
it's true, metal isn't very mainstream but the bands have a lot more longevity because the fans they get tend to cling to them. it's a double edged sword in a way, because often those same fans react very badly to seeing their favourite bands change their sound over time
@@monicaleonte8913 It can work though. Some bands change their sound a lot, but people still love them. Sigh is very different now from how they were in the 90s, but people still love them. People don't hate change necessarily, they just hate poor changes.
@GlumpusMumpus this is perhaps best exemplified by Between the Buried and Me. A band that broadly speaking can do pretty much anything and the fans at large will like it in time
This was a really cool and unexpected discussion. Who remembers Jacoby Shaddix (Papa Roach) hosting MTV’s Scarred?? 🤣🤣
Crossover of the year so far
Everyone has that one cultural moment that got them into metal. I still remember the first time hearing Linkin Park on the radio in Elementary School. It had an energy that wasn’t like anything i had heard before. That band was my gateway into Nu Metal bands of the time like Slipknot, SOAD, and Korn. From then on my interest expanded into bands like Children of Bodom and In Flames, etc. as I explored the sub genres of metal.
Metal has an accessibility challenge today I think. For those that find excitement exploring the sub-genres, they’ll naturally wander into metal. But, a huge quantity of listeners from the 90s and 2000s never branched too far from the Nu Metal and Grunge pushed by media at the time.
it was me randomly hearing system of a downs chop suey
blew my tiny mind lmao
100% agree: 1st time I heard any heavy music was actually on TV, I think some kind of weekend "showcase", showing off whatever was released recently. I still remember being (like) "what is this?!" XD
As a black metalhead high school in the early 2000s lol in a mostly black school I can tell you it was hard lol. That and to be honest when was the last time you heard any one talk about System Of A Down 😂 WOW
There's a Millennial's Hard Rock station here in Buffalo. I don't listen to it personally, but a coworker had it on yesterday and Diary of Jane played!! I ALMOST sang along! LoL
.....almost! 😆
We're about to go see Alice in Chains & Breaking Benjamin in 2 months....I might almost sing to the nostalgia of Breaking Benjamin 😅
On a somewhat related note check out Denzel Curry's cover of Bulls on Parade for Tripe J. Its one of the best metal covers I've ever heard/seen period.
graduated from high school just slightly over a year ago. there’s two main reasons, as somehow who listens to mainly hip-hop and metal, why hip-hop reigns supreme when it comes to youth culture and staying relevant, and metal trails far behind. the first thing is that metal refuses to evolve, and when it does “gatekeepers” trash on it. second is that the public opinion, especially amongst the young people i’ve known for a majority of my life besides close friends, is that metal/emo/punk fans are violent, anti-social, or unpleasant uncool people, most likely due to how these stereotypes are portrayed in pop culture. there’s nothing glamorous or suave about suffocation, carcass, or dying fetus.
@@bobunitone Wdym Gatecreeper is just as regressive as Kiss
@UCQeipbDQcwrls3Wq79DpMjw Also Pantera was the biggest metal band in the turn of the century, and Phil promoted extreme stuff like black and death metal, hell he was in a BM band himself with Maniac from Mayhem amon others, these days he wears Portal and Deathspell omega shirts, and yet? Extreme metal is extremely niche and it will remain that way because of music itself and nothing else. It's too harsh and offensive to be mainstream, and that's good. Lol fuckin Playboi carti said he listens to Mayhem in an interview, is that gonna change something? Nah.
I think it’s also just nowhere near as hooky as pop and hip hop, as someone who likes rock music I can’t remember a single chorus, but you can remember almost any hook to a pop or hip hop song by the 5th listen, and since the culture has moved closer and closer towards very catchy hooks, metal completely ignored that and got left in the dust. The few metal bands that actually pay attention to hooks IE: Bring Me The Horizon are the most successful bands
@@Viper-dz2kw
I’d say unlike the majority of mainstream Pop or Hip-Hop though, Metal is a very riff laden genre. The "catchiness" or focal point is going to be in the riffs a lot of the time, not necessarily choruses. And riffs don’t sell much anymore these days. The songwriting philosophies between these genres are just fundamentally different. Also the amount of sub genres it has is probably intimidating to newcomers (with more than half of them being too niche or inaccessible by design. e.g. Black Metal or Death Metal) on top of everything else listed.
Unfortunately, most people would rather listen to some generic Death Metal or Grindcore band recycling the same riffs and lyrical cliches than an Experimental or Post Metal band utilising stuff like Drone, Jazz, Industrial Music and field recordings. The Metalhead community is mostly full of gatekeepers and neckbeards, the exception being fans of those aforementioned Experimental genres.
Plus there's the sexism and homophobia, particularly sexism. No wonder Punk bands hated Metal in their time and wound up paving the way for strong female artists, and even all-female bands.
Awesome collab, can't wait to see the full vid. Also the THPS games were a gateway to punk/metal/hip hop for a loooot of kids back in the day
yea Underground shaped like 80% of my taste, played the hell out of it daily for years and it opened my mind to harsher stuff like High on Fire and Mastodon, and to some underground-ish hip hop from that period
The crossover I would have never expected but deeply appreciate
This combo is GOATed. Two of my favorite youtubers talking 🔥🔥🔥
I was very into metal when I was younger but I found myself just drifting out of it over time and now none of it is very interesting to me. I can't really pinpoint why, I think maybe it just feels like only really obscure bands are doing anything interesting in the genre. Diablo Swing Orchestra is the only metal band that's really held my attention in recent years and a lot of metalheads probably wouldn't call it real metal.
@Werse Varsity deathcore also brings in other genres of metal into their music, like Lorna shore has symphonic and black metal influence, which makes it more interesting than typical metal.
@Werse Varsity While there are quite a few interesting new Deathcore bands, i wouldn"t call it the only exciting genre whatsoever.
Technical Death Metal is going really strong, Black Metal keeps giving more and less surprising stuff, and in general there"s enough good new metal out there.
a bigger problem i"d see is finding it, 10 years ago you could just discover those things randomly on social media, but now it"s all echo chamber or curated stuff
DSO is cool, but I kinda tapped out after Pandora's Pinata. They did everything I needed from their style of music on their first three albums, and I come back to them here and there.
I agree. I used to like it as a teenager but these days the only metal band I listen to is Meshuggah. I have no idea why that band in particular has continued to feel relevant in my life. They also make the greatest gym music of all time (Marrow and Combustion are probably the greatest workout songs ever made)so that helps!
You gotta get into metal again, many bands are releasing new and interesting albums all the time. If you can't find these albums, that's kind of on you. You have the entire internet at your disposal, so if you can't find new stuff then that's not the genre's fault.
It should be remembered that Rock replaced Jazz in commercial mainstream similar to the way Hip Hop replaced Rock. Was there still Jazz after that? Sure. Did it continue to grow? Definitely. Who knows that? Jazz, and Rock/Metal both have their communities and both remain vibrant forms even while remaining at the center of popular attention. Here's the thing: would Hip Hop have come along if Jazz never fell out of favor? Maybe metal not being popular any longer will lead to something else.
ALSO- can you please do a video on the Charlie Rose roundtable between Stanley Crouch, Russel Simmons, and KRS One? I'd love to hear your take.
Rick is slowly coming back to the mainstream.
metal disappeared because white masculine youth have disappeared. prove me wrong
@@emperoraurelian7114 metal is still here dude. It's just not in the mainstream and that's as it should be.
@@oddObjekt you think rappers want rap to stop being mainstream again? hell no. self hating metalhead
@@emperoraurelian7114 its not self hating, metal is best when it's not trying to appeal to a wide audience but rather pushing things to extremes, at least musically speaking.
Unexpected collab, but cool.
It's just kind of the natural evolution of music genre I believe. After a while it becomes hard to innovate anything new that fits strict criteria of what defines a genre of music. Possibly should ask a music theorist, of which there are a few really cool ones on UA-cam, notably the guy of channel 12 tone is a metal head that fell in love with music.
It's actually more exciting to see where metal and other dead or dying genres pop up. There's a really awesome Indian folk music and metal mash up I've seen recently. Old forms of rock always seem to pop up somewhere in Japan from time to time too including hair bands and metal, or at least their influence.
yup traditional metal is pretty boring, now all the newer metal bands are some funky subgenre, even the older bands have to change it up/be able to do something other bands cant to stay relevant. All the mainstream innovation seems to be happening in combining pop + metal
It has been awesome seeing more non-white people show up in metal lately. Tosin Abasi is obviously a pretty big star now (and a fucking demon of a guitarist), but seeing guys like Arka'n out of Togo means we're getting all sorts of new sounds coming in too
Shout-out Misha Mansoor
Shoutout Adam Warren. Oceanos new stuff will seriously fuck
Trap metal basically has allowed metal to use hip-hop to have an afterlife. There's an opportunity to resurrect in the mainstream if metalheads want to use it.
Lay off the racism dude. Music transcends race.
@@The_ScapeGoat mate I just want more people making metal. If it's only white men, we as listeners are missing out on what most of the world could be making. I'm not asking for fewer white men doing it, I'm asking for more of everyone doing it
Also as far as the "missing out on Meme's" part of the discussion, there's a whole small ecosystem of memeing on metal from UA-camrs like Jared Dines, Steve Terreberry (though not exclusively metal), and Nik Nocturnal making himself essentially a meme in the Metal Community
not to mention the lyrical machete kmachiavelli
Loved this. I probably would listen to you two talk for hours lol. I am interested in the whole music divide question that FD brought up, because even though everyone has access to all music, doesn’t mean they actually would be listening to like Thugger AND Dorian Electra or w/e. The social context I grew up in had a huge influence on my music taste, and even HOW I listened to music (streaming a lot of short-lived warped-tour bands on myspace for example), because that’s what the older kids I hung out with did when I started high school.
Metal has actually grown a lot, globally, and is reflected in streaming with Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, etc
This need to be longer. This was my kind of music back when I was a teenager. SOAD and RATM are iconic bands.
those aren't real metal bands
Insane crossover episode
Big respect for the metalocaylpse name drop, dethklok has some amazing stuff
growing up a black metalhead who also loved history, instantly fell in love with System of a Down,toxicity record in particular, through Daron Malakian i got more into Slayer and death metal and i just love hardcore, finding bad brains was so heartwarming to have a band like that, be the nucleus of hardcore and that even spread a positive message! ill always love metal and punk, its brought tons of cathartic experiences to me
The collab I didn’t see coming not I’m happy it’s here.
Whoaaa.. the algorithm must be getting sophisticated. I've been watching these two a lot lately and I was just thinking a collab between the two would be fun.
Glad to see Melon expound on metal a bit more. I know he listens to metal and likes quite a bit of it, but people always ask his opinions about hip hop and rarely do I see them asking him about metal. Great video!
Metal was harmed by gatekeepers who thought they could shun everyone who didn’t conform to whatever they defined as “metal”. It’s stupid because any style of music is basically ethereal as it’s always a constant metamorphosis.
awesome video! tons of respect for you both
Listened to a lot to post-hardcore music in middle school and high school. There was something also called metalcore. An example is Bring Me the Horizon. There’s so many sub genres of metal and punk and it gets so confusing. These genres/sub genres have so much in common, and that should be acknowledged rather than labeling and grouping things too much. These bands evolve so much to the point they’ll transcend genres. What was so cool about Warped Tour festival is that all genres could coalesce and blend with equal appreciation.
You have to admit that overly specific subgenres of metal are a fun meme in and of themselves though :)
Coalesce is a good metalcore band
metalcore is very different from hardcore though. it's the bridge between hardcore punk and metal. the problem is that so much of metalcore barely resembles hardcore anymore, lol.
I do agree that metal subgenres can be overly taxonomical. power metal in particular is literally just trad heavy metal with synths and escapist fantasy lyrics. you can just as easily put Sanhedrin next to Wolf or Judas Priest and there is barely a sonic difference in terms of appeal. speed metal is just trad heavy metal with faster performances too. most people who like one are almost certainly going to like the other.
"something called metalcore" as if it was some underground movement lol gtfo
@@MelMelodyWerner Cheesy power metal do be good sometimes though.
I think a bigger problem is that so many kids just listen to whatever's on a pre-built Spotify playlist like New Music Friday which doesn't include much outside of Pop, Hip-hop, and R&B, maybe some soft rock.
I don't know if that's true for everyone. Spotify algorithm probably gives highly individual playlist for each person. Media used to be centralized but now it's personalized.
@@hamobu yeah that's how I feel about the internet/social media in general. I'm in my late 20s and can relate to people my age about shows and reruns we'd watch after school. There were few things to watch so we all kind of saw the same things. And now it's so easy to get caught up in our special niche interests. I haven't had cable in forever. I don't listen to the radio anymore. My recommended are so tailored to my interests, can I expect other people to get me when I talk about what I like?
"Video killed the radio star." This just keeps happening though, like huh it's been my turn to worry about the next generation.
@@justanothercutefreak I think that things are changing, but it might be for the better. I am 44 and I grew up mindlessly consuming content. Seems to me that kids today are not only consumers but also creators. I can honestly say that making a meme or dancing on Tik Tok is better than watching Beavis and Butthead on TV which is what my generation did.
@@hamobu I really appreciate this reminder. I get what you mean actually.
I've been going through an existential crisis (although I've been told this one is normal for my age), doubting if I have community, work keeps me drained and I just consume my recommended because it's easy. I'm slowly figuring it out though. I started teaching highschoolers and they inspire me so much because of how much they try to do.
New doesn't have to be bad, I just have to figure out how to make it work in my favor which takes time and practice.
@@justanothercutefreak wow, this makes me feel not so alone, thanks for just posting this comment.
This conversation really makes me feel old now. It got me reminiscing about 20+ years ago when whole genres of music & artist and bands all had diversity in their sound.
As a long time subscriber and longer time suicidal tendencies fanboy hearing you sing along to institutionalized was cool as fuck hahaha
I kinda think the death of commerical metal is what the Metal Community wanted. While bands like Disturbed and Korn got huge off MTV and radio play, bands like Megadeth and Metallica had so many people writing them off as they achieved that same level of success after ~10 years of work in pubs and small theaters. Every band that saw mainstream success had an equal number of people who disliked it, sometimes just because it was successful. I think the community (or some parts of it) didn't want to be associated with the cheesy shit in M/V's like that korn one.
Probably ties in too alot of young white metalheads having the same problems you identified with the edgelord stuff. They feel ostracized and criticized by society, and Metal is a form of strength and resistance, and it's almost a whole lifestyle in itself rather then just music. When it becomes a joke or a meme, I think it's hard for those people to accept as it means a lot to them. Even worse when it becomes part of the society the lyrics often criticize; so many bands in the 80's hated MTV, but by 93' they were all over it. As an adult I can separate myself from it and see the humor in some of it, but when I was 17, not so much.
🎯
Exactly. As a kid growing up in the 90's, by the time the Nu metal wave was in full swing all the patch wearing metal fans wanted that shit to die
Many good points that have substance I believe but as I stated in another comment thread, a big part for a lot of fans is also just taste. Nu metal or Core is so different musically from death, thrash, doom, black etc that fans of said genres will hear Nu Metal and it’s nothing like the music they like, appreciate and respect. It’s just totally different
@@baptizednblood6813 I think some Nu/Core stuff has roots in older styles. Some Nu metal has similar sounds to industrial/groove metal, and even doom/stoner. Some 90's metalcore I've heard gets close to death metal, and again industrial/groove. As someone who grew up more with the Pop-Emo/Core era, alot of my friends loved thrash and metal/death/whatever-core. The dividing line in both I think is the vocals; the rapping in nu-metal and screaming in 00's core really didn't appeal to some people.
But on the other hand, some of those bands were huge. I remember being a teenager and hating how "all the girls only like fake metal", and watching alot of my friends go over to that side, rather then getting into 90s Death Metal like I did. I was very much speaking from my own experiences, and how I view me and people who thought the same then, now. I'm not saying it's the only reason, but I feel like it's at least some part of that.
Nah. Metallica sold 125 million records. You can't tell me there's 125 million dedicated Metallica haters. The fact is the haters are just a very, very loud minority. Emphasis on minority. Go look at an average Metallica vid and the comments are by and large very positive.
My absolute favorite is watching Black people react to the rock and metal music they would side eye me for repping as a teen and young adult and LOVE IT.
This is OUR music too! Tina Bell, A BLACK WOMEN, PAVED THE WAY for grunge and metal we have today.
Negro spirituals and plantation hymns, blues, rock. We brought it. Just no credit.
Facts
Don't forget Death the Punk band!
Disclaimer: I am not black. I claim no authority on black culture and what benefits it.
I disagree that it is a good thing. You can find the videos you describe everywhere, but you (almost) never see videos of rock and metal fans reacting positively to hip hop music. You will find people in the comments of the videos you describe in which rock and metal fans wax lyrical about 'uniting' and 'sharing' across genres. I guarantee you NONE of these people would be caught dead listening to hip hop. They see themselves as above it. These viewers watch and like these videos because it feeds into the old propaganda that white music is 'real music'. Thus, they see black people listening to white music instead of black music as a cultural victory.
Now I want to make it clear that I really want to be wrong about this. I, for one, agree that black people have been shut out of rock and metal for too long, which is supported by how many black rock and metal acts are straight-up phenomenal (shout out to Living Colour and Mother's Finest). But again, I think it is a mistake to assume these videos are a sign of progress. They are not unifying, they are assimilationist.
@@icanusernamebetterthanyou3853 i agree. metalheads are super closeminded generally. alot of them are elitists. its really annoying. wanting to get into metal more myself. but i know most metalheads would never try and do that themselves and would just look down on it.
@@icanusernamebetterthanyou3853 I don’t remember saying it is objectively “good” or “unifying”. Maybe some have. I was saying that it was cool personally to see Black people embrace things that I, another Black person like and discover what’s actually also really just a part of their roots that’s been appropriated.
This is actually a complex topic because is it assimilation if it was appropriated to begin with? I was also adopted by white people so I was forced to assimilate and grew up listening to folk, country or classic rock and it evolved into metal being my favorite genre for reasons more representative of political leanings, but if a Black woman paved the way for grunge and metal as it is today then how have I really assimilated rather than embraced inspirational roots?
I’ve seen plenty of “metalheads react” to Hip-Hop, Rap, R&B and genuinely enjoy it. It has been more of the mainstream stuff so does that mean they actually don’t like it and it’s racial? I couldn’t say without more examination.
You probably have a point, but as someone raised in a predominantly white culture I’ve seen way too many white folks who actually only listen to hip-hop, by way of appropriation? Often.
As far as my prior loving of Slipknot being assimilation, even though I’m from Iowa, mayhaps, but it’s the lyrics and instrumentals that get me as well as the “punk anarchism”.
What brings me even greater joy is seeing Black reacts to RATM because Black radicalization and liberation need to get on it or unification is again not happening. Is RATM saying things Black people don’t already know? No. But they’re saying it with leftist enthusiasm.
Hip-Hop is storytelling lived experiences. Where my leftist Rappers at?
Metal has some absolutely incredible stuff going on. I think the genre bending of modern metal bands is incredible - I'm thrilled bands wear influences from other corners of the music world on their sleeves. But, I agree with @cfg1991 that the barrier to entry is maybe higher than it's been since the 60/70s, mainly due to the prevalence of dirty vocals and a deemphasis of crossover friendly melodies in favor of highly technical instrument work.
Being born in 1991 ,I loved alternative subcultures since I was little and I have gone through the many "arcs" of my own. From being the typical early-mid 2000s nu metal kid to the ultra super serious black and death metal fan to then experimenting with a wider variety dark-but-not-metal musicians like e.g Chelsea Wolfe to even rappers like Bones etc. I have never really left the metal/ rock scene. As I have grown older, especially in the last 3-4 years I am back to the 80s full circle enjoying AOR,"hair" and glam. Honestly, as much as people hated parts of the 80s for being cheesy, I really wish we had a mainstream "rockstar" revival age. Just big hair, animal prints, catchy tunes and a hell of a good time ! The music scene has become too boring in its own attempt to take itself too seriously.
This bro, like once enough time as passed , people tend to appreciate the music, music needs to change and evolve and then we cycle back, it’s a never ending circle sometimes
ozzfest was awesome, don't forget Korn's family value tour. Breaking Benjamin got me through highschool.
I think a problem in metal music right now is that it is just kinda too afraid to be authentically cheesy.
Like when I put on Powerwolf, I am transported to a guy standing next to a pot of melted cheese, and he points at the cheese, and says "don't we sure have a lot of cheese?" but he's lactose intolerant and won't ever actually interact with the cheese. Meanwhile, when I listen to Rhapsody of Fire, I am transported to a lake of melted cheese, and the entire band headdives off a cliff into the melted cheese, and emerge from the cheese with a shining sword made out of cheese while one of them plays a face shredding solo on a guitar also made out of cheese.
That's why I love Ghost, they get called Scooby-Doo music but that's like the whole point. They're putting the fun back into a genre that's forgotten how
@@shanearnold7781 Scooby-Doo metal?!?!🤣🤣🤣💀
I never heard that but it's TOO goddamn accurate
Powerwolf is great bc I never knew if they were dead serious or not. You wanna make someone crack tf up show them a Powerwolf video with the lyrics on 🤣 it's like back in the day we used to just get high as hell and watch old school videos and laugh our ass off 🤣 King Diamond, Candlemass, Savatage all kinds of wild over-the-top music videos 😆
As a local of Gouda, The Netherlands I like your metaphor.
But those bands still exist. And others. It's not that they are afraid it's few in the US listen. They just complain that it's not like it was.
I dont follow metal closely, but the few bands I've caught over the last few years definitely embrace the cheese. Nekrogoblikon and Oklilly Dokilly.
Any Devin Townsend fans here? While I wouldn't consider metal my favorite genre (tho I do love a lot of it), Heavy Devy is unquestionably my favorite musician.
Ocean Machine is great.
Hell yeah!!! That dude is a beast!
Melon isn't a Devy fan and I could feel him dancing around SYL in his Ozzfest digression.
@@AzathothsAlarmClock He keeps killing projects as they start to get popular, that is why. SYL and TDP were both getting big when he pulled the plug.
Devin is god tier!
An other theory that I believe in, is that the interest for hard sounding music but still being accessible is now provided by hardstyle and other hard dance subgenres, like hardcore, hard techno, hard trance and frenchcore. Especially here in Europe. And I have the feeling that the love and need for those genres it's getting bigger per year. For example Defqon.1, one of the biggest hard dance festivals in Europe, was two days and is now four days. Combine that with interesting hard dance artists popping up in America (looking at you Lil Texas) and you get no mainstream interest in other hard sounding genres like metal.
This is a dream collab for me, haha. Thanks guys! And props for using the Institutionalized beat in your videos lately. As a TPAB fanatic, i'd love to hear your personal thoughts on that album sometime. Also, I recall you mentioning in another video that you're thinking of bringing Light Work back, so I just wanted to share with you that I really enjoy that series. Thanks again!
Didn’t know I needed this collaboration, I like the dynamic pls do more.
Record industry greed and the executives cutting development departments killed mainstream metal/rock and r&b. They seemed to only focus on pop and rap, promoting certain artists for financial gains.
I work at a major white high school, I only hear rap, I don’t even see that mainly gothic dressed kids.
I think that's what it is. It's easier to manage and promote a single artist than a band.
discovered classic 80s thrash metal (slayer, megadeth, metallica) in high school and am still riding it. I just can't find anything that gives me that same feeling of being like angry and fast but at the same time melodic and baroque sounding at times. I want to find new shit but every time I find something new I just wanna go back and play Seasons in the Abyss or Ride the Lightning again instead. idk
Two legends! I'm sure this livestream was bonkers godDAMN!
This gives me the 90's feels. I was born in 1980 and this brings back memories. I would hang out with every clique. I would hang out with the hip-hop heads (majority black), the nerds, and metal heads. I think my senior year 1999, I hung out solely with the metal heads.
One of the major reasons that Metal is still incredibly popular but not mainstream is because it isn't "fun" anymore. Metal started taking itself waaay too seriously and the mainstream stopped paying attention.
I just listened to this Deathcore band Lorna Shore that shit was impressive AF.....
but maybe you're right. Idk my old favorites are still fun to me 🤷🏾♀️
@@juicyparsons Lorna Shore is fun af though! Those breakdowns are so brutal I literally lol'd the first time I heard their music. It's also a huge reason that band is blowing tf up on social media
do u watch finn mckenty
You know who's consistently having fun still is Rob Zombie too 😆 don't sleep on him
@@justaguy7589 yes! That's the content creator I was trying to think of earlier. I like his platform. I usually don't feel too comfortable around a lot of metalheads but he has fun topics and decent politics. He's a punk dude too that's probably why
Korn definitely had black fans
They have a lot of crossover appeal. The music video to Twisted Transistor was basically a homage to all the friends they have in rap
Fascinating conversation. I was into neo metal and industrial metal in middle school, so 2007-2009, but it was totally out of a desire to be "different" and cool, as a trans man who didn't even know I was trans back then. So I guess in a way it was also out of a desire to fit in with guys. Definitely fell deep into some homophobia and misogyny, anti-emo, etc. I genuinely did like the music for a while but then it became just for the image. And eventually I decided to just give it up and listen to stuff I liked, I went hard into Disney Channel stuff and pop. But Slipknot were my mains for sure even though they were well past their hayday.
I feel like metal and punk towards their end of major popularity they both become what popular hip hop is now.
They both got so full of themselves and become kind of a parody of classic rock just like hip hop has gotten full of itself and has become a parody of what hip hop claims itself to be regardless of all the continued contridictions
the evolution of metalcore is probably where this conversation needs to go. a lot of the bands are knocking on the door of mainstream. Genres are blurring more and more , and with guys like MGK and Travis Barker leading the pop punk wave in the mainstream. There’s going to be a come back for rock/ metal soon
lol wut. Metalcore passed it's time of popularity in the early 2000s. It really has no place in the current mainstream.
@GlumpusMumpus I mean, isn't metalcore what most of modern metal *is* nowadays? Especially the big ones? Like Spiritbox, or Knocked Loose with their Hardcore and Metalcore fusion? Yeah, metalcore passed it's popularity in the early 2000's. . . if you're only talking about the big metalcore bands in the early 2000's.
Whats funny is in countries such as Japan, metal is still a massively popular thing. Bands who perform metal still fill massive stadiums and release albums consistently (such as groups like Dir en Grey and MUCC). Totally worth checking these groups out for anyone craving some high quality modern metal.
My obstacle is that Japan seems to have embraced glam metal and power metal as their main influences, so there are very few bands I've come across that I liked consistently as opposed to just one or two songs.
Dir en grey is awesome
In Mexico and many other Latin American countries metal is still extremely big
@@marinakesawa7470 You're mostly right about this, i would also add that nu-metal remained a thing in Japan a lot longer than elsewhere too. They seem to have a thing for the styles of metal that get written off as cringe in other countries, hmm
Japan, Latin America, and Scandanavia are where metal still lives and thrives. Strangely, I know a couple of really good Canadian metal bands, too. Unleash the Archers rock my world.
This is just, wonderful.
I think love it or hate it, heavy metal/hard rock being SO FAR away from the mainstream has removed an important flavour from mainstream culture. Having SoaD, Slipknot, Marilyn Manson etc be part of the cultural milieu likely had an effect on society that couldn't be measured....I can't even say whether it was actually positive or negative due to this, but it must have affected overall attitudes at the time they were around.
Also, there's no getting around this (and it was kinda touched on here in the vid), but metal in particular was a very "white" genre, and the 2010s/2020s have leaned more heavily into black (ie, hip hop-derived) culture as being dominant, certainly with younger age groups.
Hip hop (and all its permutations) is here to stay. I know these have been famous last words, but I actually find it difficult to believe hip hop will get less popular in the next decade or so, I just cannot see where Western culture could plausibly shift.
Luckily, a lot of the culture around hip hop is based on the notion of being successful/making money, so in a way it has a far more sutainable "platform" commercially as it fundamentally gels well with the corporate agenda....metal on the other hand REEKED of elitism and gatekeeping that shunned anything that was commercially viable. Anyone who was ever into metal knows about all the snooty, pretentious types that derided bands that didn't fit a certain style or were too mainstream/sellouts etc.
YOOOO love your content and metal so this is a really cool surprise
I felt similarly
I'm so stoked FD is an Iowa fan lolll I continue to feel seen by this man
Melon! Wild to see you here but welcome aboard lol.
(Btw I love Institutionalized intro 👍🏾)
I'll be 35 this year. By high school the time I started high school in 2001, it seemed like any sort of mainstream metal was on the way out. I don't know if it was 9/11 or what.
I became a metalhead (still am) alone in my bedroom on internet forums and such in my high school years, but by then I knew it was not something to play around anyone in public if surviving socially was on the table.
I'm 35 this year, too, and I think underground music is better than it's ever been. The problem with metal was when it WAS trying to become more popular. It's fine where it is - as long as we support artists, shops, distros, labels, that we love. Underground death metal, black metal, and grindcore are thriving right now. Metal UA-cam is cool. So is Metal Twitter, Instagram, and there are some solid podcasts, too. Fuck mainstream appeal.
On the subject of forgotten genres. I spent Saturday night listening to 1980's UK Mod revival bands on my old original vinyl. They were all my favourite bands at the time and I was a teeny young mod who had a gang/group/clan/tribe with fashion and lots of music and history. Tbf it was a fairly niche scene but It's almost totally forgotten about as a music scene except for maybe old farts like me. Time marches on.
Man, hearing you mention the homophobia against emo brings me back to when I was a younger man, took some friends to see The Get Up Kids on the "Something To Write Home About" tour, and my buddies complaining that it was "gay", never mind that they were singing about, you know, girls. Looking back on that wave of music it was misogynistic in retrospect, but at the time it was way less so than the other male-targeted music.
05:21 "Suicidal Tendencies" still listen to them from time to time. Lyrics are a bit macabre but it's part of the appeal.
This was AWESOME! Big fans of both of you...
Omg loved this conversation.
Was in HS in the early 2000s and I remember being early emo (BN, DC, FOB, SC, TBS, YC, BE, AR, RK, Cursive, etc.) And that whole nu metal situation (LP, SOAD, APC, 3DG, BB, Sugarcult, Korn, etc.)
Was never "black enough" though I had some hip hop & r&b interests. I've enjoyed the blurring of those genre and culture lines that they were talking about at the beginning. I've also enjoyed seeing more "blerds" and black former emokids and more of the thought that we weren't alone and didn't really have to be.
too many acronyms bro lmfao
I've been a metal head since '87. For me, the best stuff has ALWAYS been off of the airways. So many bands I was (and to a degree, still am) into never got airplay. Bands like Deicide, Napalm Death, Carcass, Morbid Angel, etc. Half of The Big Four never got a ton of rotation. Anthrax were my favorite band in the late 80s/early 90s and beyond a guest spot on an episode of Married with Children, I don't recall them ever getting much mainstream attention.
It's one of the only good things about the internet: so many people have access to this stuff, like you both were saying.