I still love Jason’s “cameo” in the Emperor Joker arc. In Joker’s “dream world,” Jason’s corpse is shown sitting at a poker table with the other dead Robins, with a sign around his neck saying “Why didn’t anyone call in to save me?”
They never pull their punches when referencing Jason, Todd’s death😭 I know it can seem jarring if you think about how so many people come back to life in the DC universe has a grand scheme, but when you confine it to the interesting gotham side of the universe, it’s just really cool tbh. I always thought of him as a ghost or zombie.
Honestly I love Jason place in the bat family as the rebellious middle child who happened to become a super villain murdered a bunch of people (because if your dad is Batman that’s how you rebel) And you’re right, Jason would never stop making “I slept with your momma” jokes to Damien
Honestly Jason being a parallel for Bruce works on another level if you throw Dick into the mix, because on one hand you have Nightwing the absolute paragon of justice that doesn't need to rely on fear to get the same results as his mentor and became a refined vertion of what batman wanted to be, and on the other hand you have, the Red Hood,the failed robin, and the absolute embodiment of vengince, and has renounced his old non lethal ways, and now fights crime by any means nesissary, and chose the jokers prior identity as his own, symbolizing how Batman's 2 greatest failures are closely tied, and is what Batman is afraid he might become
I always loved how nightwing was portrayed as a "lighter" version of batman He still fights crime at night but he isnt afraid to smile and crack some jokes here and there He also does not have plans to stop everyone like batman does because he honestely belives in the good in people I always hated how they have been treating him in the last few years though he seens to be getting better recentely
His original resurrection was an interesting one. Lost Days was an interesting read to say the least. I feel like the Under the Red Hood movie did the resurrection pretty well. It made it simpler to say the least (just toss him in the Pit). That or I just like it. And as far as the Tim Drake thing, what I always liked was how they improved the relationship in later years. Jason wasn’t entirely in the right, but Tim understood that. Side note: Jason did have the duffle bag of heads at one point (according to Roy in Red Hood/Arsenal). Jason was all like, “I wasn’t an actual mob boss” to which Roy pretty much responded with “I think a duffle bag of eight heads would disagree”.
Finally someone's brought up how Talia slept with Jason which I also thought to be very unnecessary and just comes out of no where especially when you consider how Talia is famed as a sort of mother figure to Jason throughout 'Lost Days.' Now with my little rant aside, I just want to say I'll never get bored of your Jason Todd centric content. P.S Can we get some Jason Todd ships on Shippers Guide
As big as a convoluted mess as DC has become, what they've done to Talia's character over the past couple of decades is nothing short of criminal. She was such an interesting, layered, complex femme fatale in the 1970s-1990s. Then she became a plot device made of shock and cardboard.
I am honestly always here for more Jason Todd. It's really interesting how Jason went from a characters that was rather split on how much people liked/disliked him (to an extent - I'm looking at you computer programed phone call guy) to a character that is genuinely well liked by a majority of the fan base. But it worth bringing to light the fact that - regardless of how many of us hate his death - we probably wouldn't like him as much if he hadn't. That dark "I died and am angsty about it" attitude, his blatant anger at Bruce, the fact that he was literally a dark foil for Batman - the whole "bringer of justice, protector of the people" thing he got going on, but with murder - is all what make him so compelling. But we never would have gotten that had he not died. We would have probably seen him grow up and move out into his own hero like Dick did, but he probably wouldn't have the same punch. Not to mention, had Jason not died, we probably wouldn't have Tim Drake - he would have no need to become Robin - and we would probably see Damian come in, and that would cost Jason to leave, and I love Tim way to much to lose him. But a look into a world where Jason didn't die would probably be really cool. Like... Where would Tim be? What would Damian's outlook be on the family where he is like... 10 years younger and Jason and probably wouldn't see him living at the Manor. It's interesting to think about, if not totally mind boggling, because we just have no way of knowing.
Jason was a replacement for Dick. Grayson, was supposed to stay as Nightwing and Jason was going to stay as Robin. Because a vocal fandom didn’t care for him, they wrote him off the bat universe. He was then supposed to stay gone. He came back for shock value but people loved his return. It was a money decision to bring him back. Now, they don’t know what to do with him. DC, frankly doesn’t know what to do with most legacy characters, Nighwing, Tim Drake, Simon Baz, Kyle Raynor, Conner Kent, Wally West, etc. It’s a sad truth. Plus, new writers make new sidekicks, Blue Bird/Lark/Signal/etc and it just makes it harder to do something for all of them [+]
More Jason, and maybe some Talia too, maybe tackle comic Nyssa as well, she doesn't get much attention. Those are some wackadoo sisters man. I'm so going to have a hard time eating jello now lol
I'm so happy to hear they retconned Talia sleeping with Jason. It squicks me on so many levels. Was he legal at the time? Can he really consent if she's funding him, acting as a mother figure, and purposely encouraging his pit madness? Not to mention she knows she's already had a son with Bruce - it feels like she's seducing her would-be step-son. It's so much easier to enjoy her as a character if that night(s) just never happened. -
I also like this happening because honestly, the entire league of assassins is fucked up. These people should horrify us and be amoral in ways that makes us uneasy.
@@c.i.a8359It happened right before Hush, so Jason was most likely 18, maybe last days of 17. Legal either way in Gotham City, NJ and the vast majority of the US as well as the rest of the world.
Ever thought about making a video about all the people who wanted/tried to adopt Jason? Like Bruce Wayne, Natalia Knight, and Dick Grayson. (And in DC Bombshells, Kate Kane and Renee Montoya adopted a little boy named Jasón, tho I don't know if that was meant to be Jason Todd or not?) Or all his parental figures, potential and otherwise. Like Willis and Catherine Todd, Sheila Haywood, and even Talia al Ghul (as messed up as that went). I just think it's so funny, this orphan has all these not-really-parents, and even Dick Grayson himself wanted to adopt him at first! xD
The most interesting arc for Jason might well turn out to be to having him retire into a hopefully quieter life. It would be more convincing than having him active as Red Hood or some form of Robin, and it would make him a fine vehicle for telling stories about the price paid for being a part of the Batman Family and the good reasons that one could have to choose not to. For instance, how much ability to actually leave the violent past behind can a former Batman or former Robin have? At some point Talia Al Ghul or Penguin or someone will come and decide that he is a fine piece for their plans of blackmail, vengeance, or brainwashing. Yet it would be even worse to try and remain an active part of that lifestyle. It can be a sobering tale to tell.
I wish the comics would do more with the Jason & Talia relationship (the mother son relationship, not the sexual one) I feel like there’s a lot of potential there for both characters
If Talia still wants to get back with Bruce, having two of his sons call her 'mom' is a good step, especially since she and Dick never liked each other.
I love that Jason isnt mad that Batman couldn't save him but instead mad he never took his revenge witch of you watched Her other Jason Todd video after his death he wasn't mentioned for 11 months makes alot of sense to me Thanks for the content Casually comics I love this chanel and am glad it finally popped back up in my recommended videos
Bringing Jason back was definitely messier. I am glad that you mentioned his kill count possibly being retconned though. It really bugged me that he was welcomed back into the family and given "edgier" missions when he had straight-up murdered so many people.
Not only was it very localized near the end it was really neck to neck and I feel like he could’ve stayed alive, but I think it’s a very interesting part of his methods that he’s kind of a ghost or a zombie boy robin. It really hits hard how even around the people who knew him he just couldn’t come to mention him. And then he just comes back from the grave.
This is all interesting but I'm glad I gave up collecting years ago. As cool of a character that Batman is, his story has become so convoluted especially with all the retcons.
If you love Jason Todd, you might like the first book I wrote about him called "Kindred Lives". It's a look at his origins and his short time as Robin. The book continues on as Jason makes a tough choice to follow his heart instead of staying on as Robin. From that point on, Jason now becomes Kindred, my own original character concept. This character goes on to live several different lives and gains power along the way. He eventually returns to Gotham as an older man in his 30's. This is a 60 chapter book, 600 pages and free online for anyone to read. Search "Kindredlives" on Facebook if you want to find a link to the book. Fair warning - adult content, adult themes.
I only really got into comics a year ago because of a few friends. But i have to say all the big comic publishing houses like DC and Marvel were really offputting to a beginner, and i was completely overwhelmed. The only thing that drew me in were the, by themselves, interesting character dynamics, especially the batfamily. But holy hell i think i only read a tiny fraction of it before completely giving up again. Jason and Tim especially are awesome characters but i feel like due to the cyclical nature of the batman franchise they got to be important for a few issues and then completely fade into the background once more. I think its frustrating that these comics wont ever end. Its an endless parade of "but wait, theres more!" Coupled with ever increasing stakes that completely deaden the reader to any excitement. The whole reviving any dead character is also a huge problem. An then these enormously complicated plot stories over several different series (trying to read robin wars was a literal nightmare, and im not even mentioning the massive plot holes and overall problems with that one) that you would have to research before even starting to read the newer comics. Oh but then someone had the good idea to reboot everything, to mitigate all of the above mentioned problems. Except they couldnt even do that right, since they wanted every character to still have their epic backstory and be in prime age, so that you have new continouty problems like bruce, richards and damians age. Like wtf is going on here, did bruce adopt dick when he was like 16 wth. I always feel like there are a ton of great ideas, storylines and characters in big comics but they get hindered by the money grabbing attitude of those in power and maybe the whole industry has a problem. A lot of the characters and themes could be much better explored in a smaller publication with less interfering characters from other franchises (like why didnt superman help bruce with robin? Where was the justice league? Why are some events happening with only one of the justice league founders involved despite being a major threat to the universe or whatever, and others are suddenly less severe but somehow the whole league is involved) and most importantly a real and planned and final end to it. I can understand wanting to create spinoffs but why the fuck do they have to be explained away as being technically canon because wacky universe mambo jumbo. Alsp Sorry for the rant i guess
Yup, I get how you feel. Honestly, I don’t want any crossover between the DC superheroes. I don’t want Batman in my Superman stories and Batman stories don’t work with Superman. Wonder Woman I can leave out all together and the others can do whatever. There’s just no legitimate justification for most of Batman’s plotlines when he’s got Clark on speed dial. It just makes Bruce a prick for making Gotham a “no Superman zone” so he can pretend he’s doing any good whatsoever.
@@manicpixiefangirl4189 yeah!!! Yes! Exactly this as well!!!! Having an entity like superman exist in the same universe as batman, and then even having them be friends, is a shotgun blast destroying all stakes. Why did jason die if zzs could have just involved superman ie? Why is superman even struggling with Luther if bruce wayne could engage in some corproate warfare/smear campaigns and/or equip superman himself. It's just... so bad...
13:00 Wait. What? There's a mid-70s story where Batman is drugged and married to Talia. At a time when sex wasn't depicted in comics, it could have been implied. There's a mid-80s story in an oversized book that is perhaps extraneous (elseworlds) and never referred to in the comics for 25 years until the story you're talking about now. Batman and Ras form a temporary alliance and sleeps with Talia, which is fine with Ras because they're married. Talia conceives a child but fakes a miscarriage. At the end of the story we see the baby left on a kindle couples doorstep. Jason Todd's return and the introduction of Damien Wayne were two of the most exciting storylines I have ever encountered in my 50 years of reading Batman.
Wow they really do make a mess of things at DC. Someone over there needs to make a Czar of Continuity over there. It's one of the things I don't like about comic books.
Complex feelings. Growing up, I always hated Robin -- as a concept. I preferred Batman as the ultimate loner, the damaged brooding orphan hiding behind dark clothes, dark thoughts, rage, but with a flinty conscience. Honestly, Bruce always made a terrible father figure & the last place any kid belonged was chasing violent criminals alongside Punchy McDark. My attitude on that might have been influenced early-on by Neal Adams' recurring images of Batman grieving over a dead Robin (Batman vol.1, #232, Detective vol.1 #408, Tales of the Demon TPB cover, etc.). Although this was just a recurring fake-out, the scenario probably worked because it registered as all too likely. And then Dick was away at college or Titans Tower for the better part of a decade. (Who took longer to finish four years of college: rich kid Dick Grayson or working stiff Peter Parker?) So I got used to solo Batman stories. Even in team comics, Bronze & Modern Age Batman never played well with others. (During the Silver Age, everybody was an extroverted boy scout and fit seamlessly into a team ...) At one point in the '80s, Bruce tells the JLA to shove it & forms his own band. Tellingly called The Outsiders, this group consisted of Batman-like vigilantes & misfits misfits. And Bruce overawed them. (I gave The Outsiders look, but it wasn't for me: The Batman-led team in my head would have been more like an updated Batman family, some drawn from Bruce's own Addams-like chosen family, some not: Helena Bertinelli's Huntress, Barbara Gordon's Batgirl, Nightwing, Black Lightning, maybe Black Canary ... but no kids & no one very "super.") Now, I'd admittedly stopped reading the regular Batman comic by the time Jason Todd was introduced (having gotten busy with college myself). The thing is, I think I would have liked him as a character -- his street urchin background sounds like a dramatic contrast to Wayne Manor. Arguably, he starts out from a dangerous place. I remember later thinking that characters like this could have a place in a rogue ("I'm not wearing a hocket mask") group like the Bat-Men (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, vol.1 #21-23.) But the whole idea of putting someone else in the *Robin* outfit, of putting that bright target on another kid's back, always bothered me. Moreover, the drive to replace Robin seemed artificial, fan service to Boomers (don't at me -- Gen X happened! We've been mad at Boomers longer!), or -- most likely -- a bid to retain copyright. It wasn't story-driven and didn't address the problem with (at least un-powered) teen sidekicks as such. So, when I heard that they killed off Jason, I thought: "Well, that's what would happen." It's what the comic had been foreshadowing for twenty years. And the Joker was exactly the psycho who'd go out of his way to do it. Of course, by the time they brought Jason back, it was a foregone conclusion that there would always be a Robin. So, whatevs. Nobody stays dead. Pimply teens can beat up gangsters & supervillains. Batman is a terrible dad who keeps collecting strays & no one has anything to say about this. Yeah, I guess undead Jason'd be bitter, if character development is one of the rules we're following in this universe. \_O_/ (And, agreed, he'd totally skeeze Damien about getting with his mom.)
Death wasn't always a revolving door (at least for main characters). Villains died and comeback and the same for sidekicks/lovers. It really wasn't until Superman (though really Gene Grey) that changed the stakes.
You mention people encountering Hush in collected form. The same of Jim Lee's Superman "For Tomorrow" but its MUCH WORSE. I wish DC heavily marketed "Ending Battle" instead. It had more of Superman's supporting cast & rogues.
I think it's funny that Batman TAS didn't want to use Jason Todd because his story was too dark but then they do a "Death In the Family" style story with Tim Drake in Batman Beyond.
I actually quite liked the Hush film. I don't think it is as good as the original story from the comics but I enjoyed it because it took me by surprise. I always watch these films based on stories from the comics and while generally enjoying them there's always a wee disappointment at knowing pretty much what is going to happen. I've enjoyed Jason as a character ever since he came back to life and I enjoy watching videos of you talking about him, so crack on and I'll watch!
Well I understand why they changed Batman hush in the movie adaptation. Hush was always about tricking the audience like when they made us think it was Jason, but in the movie that wouldn’t work anymore cause the comic already existed
Granted, I'm a general amateur when it comes to comics but I'd known about the Talia/Bruce rape debacle but had no idea it was an accident on the writers part. Like how does that happen tho? How was he the only person that missed that? Or did someone else read it and go "This is fine." Wha??? Also, Talia sleeping with Jason reminds me of the whole Cordlia/Conner nonesense from Angel and that was just as weird. PS. More Jason, yes please.
I am really new to this whole comic thing and haven't even read any DC yet because it all seems so confusing. If you could help a girl out and do a video on the reading order of some characters or eras I will forever be grateful.
4 роки тому+12
I don't like that they took away the Superboy Prime element (although it had to be done), because having Talia just digging him up and throwing him into the Lazarus Pit doesn't make sense, the Pit can't resurrect people!
Well, wasnt there also that issue where they killed off damian, via damian clone created by talia, and then bruce went insane, all the robins were like "we'll help you bruce" and collectively decided to throw damian into a lazarus pit... which they miracliously found despite bruces prior attempts to destroy all of them.... and for some reason that actually revives damian, but with temporary superpowers??? I think by this point dc comics are just 90% plotholes, and can therefore be considered to be of less substance than cheese
In my opinion, Jason works SO much better as the dead symbol of Batman's shame and grief. Whether or not he should have been killed in the first place is another discussion, but keeping the death as a part of the Dark Knight's history just added a lot of nuance to the character, which has since retreated back into the shadows. See, there's a tendency for people to write Batman as essentially perfect - he's always prepared for everything and he always does everything right. The death of Jason was an eternal reminder that this wasn't true, and that Bruce Wayne was as human as anybody. The big, flawless superhero was unable to protect someone close to him when it really counted (or at least, that's how he'll always see it), and he never quite got over the guilt from that. The empty Robin costume in the Batcave was an eternal reminder of that incident, and it kept us aware that Batman is HUMAN, and humans can make mistakes. Now, however, Jason's come back to life, and in recent years he's been treated more or less as if he never went away - and that makes no damn sense. Regardless of how he was resurrected, Jason was KILLED. He was murdered by the Joker, and then he came back to life as a villain. For crying out loud, he SHOOTS people! Having Batman treating Jason as just another ex-Robin when he should be traumatized at the very sight of him... well, it's weird. It's weird, and illogical, and the character literally was better off dead.
Yes... yes to all of this. Jason Todd was more significant dead then he ever will be alive. That's just the sad truth. You also bring up a good point about Batman's "Perfection Problem," which has become more & more of an issue over the years, I can't help but wonder if it correlates with the timeline of Jason Todd's resurrection? As long as Jason was dead, the writers & readers always had him as this reminder that Batman could fail but once that mistake was retconned out of existence, suddenly there was nothing at all to act as a check upon Batman becoming a plot device. It's probably not as cut & dry as that but who knows?
@@gojira387 Thanks! Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. I think the general consensus is that Batman started his voyage to 'Mr. Perfect' status when Grant Morrison started writing him in JLA, and justifying his presence there amongst living gods by making him the World's Smartest Man - which, to be fair, worked fine in that book, but it did lead to ripple effects down the line. Maybe following that, Jason's resurrection got less resistance from writers than it otherwise would have, because once Bats had already more or less achieved perfection status, they didn't see much point in keeping him flawed. Personally, one of the reasons I've always enjoyed Batman as a character is that he's NOT perfect, at least not in the sense that he can do everything. Yes, he can do some amazing things and he's got amazing gadgetry on his side and he's really really smart - but he's still just a guy in a costume, and everything cheer-inducing that he does is something he's got to WORK for. Look at 'Knightfall' - he pushes himself way beyond his boundaries in that story, and he LOSES, and it's still one of the best Batman stories of all time. Or 'Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader', which makes the point that Batman is inevitably going to fall in battle; he's inevitably going to sacrifice himself on the altar of his own obsession. In every possible version of things, he dies in the line of duty - but he keeps on fighting anyway, and every time he avoids death for one more day, every time he narrowly avoids defeat just once more, every time he falls and gets back up makes him that much more awesome.
But that didn’t really happen. Hell, people blamed Jason for his own death and completely let Bruce off the hook. Hell, they did it AGAIN with Stephanie Brown. For me, Jason is my favorite because he and Bruce have a father/son relationship that’s almost a reverse Luke/Vader. Heck, I’d say out of all the Robins, Jason is the most like Bruce. There’s just way more interesting material when he’s alive.
have you read the very short story where the Titans use Wonder Girl, Hawk, Jason Todd Robin, Wally West , Speedy and Aqualad on a team? it was one of Jason's last appearances and really the only time he was a Titan before he was killed
for a bit New Teen Titans was in Baxter format and sold in comic stores and other premium outlets like Tower Records. some of the more important stories are from this era . the direct sales allowed them to do more pg rated stories.
"If you have accepted the revolving door of comic book deaths hit the like button" I really havent, I think it has significantly damages the medium as a hole by becoming a crutch for cheap drama. But what the hey, take a like anyway.
The Lazarus pit explanation in the Red Hood movie made sense as it is looking into more on the aspect of Batman rather than the multiverse as a whole. Still I disagree that it was his main method of resurrection over what superboy did. Overall Jason's death was for the better and now we have him as the complete opposite of Batman. Also just knowing that Talia slept with Jason would have made a rivalry between Damien and Jason or a rivalry between the son of batman and the son of the red hood.
8:48 On the one hand, adults trying to write streetwise, cool teens never comes off anywhere close to authentic. On the other hand, whatever artist did this issue decorated Jason Todd's squat with posters for obscure Portland, Oregon-based hardcore punk band Poison Idea. Which totally fits. The "Eric Peters" poster didn't ring any bells to me, unless it was meant to be Eric Peterson, guitarist for thrash metal band Testament, which would also make sense. The only Eric Peters I could find who played guitar is a dude who does acoustic Christian music, but he didn't put anything out until the late 90s. Anyone know who this could be referring to? Or was the Poison Idea poster just a coincidence, and I shouldn't be reading too much into these?
I'm still confused about the whole "punching the wall of reality" thing. Like.. what on god's green earth? 💀 Also, could you please make a video on Talia? Her origins, Grant Morrison's run, what you think of her being transformed from an anti-hero to a full-blown villain etc etc.
What would be more radical would be to leave them dead . Since when has THAT been done ? Hair streaks don't move me . Richard's has had his temples greyed since he was 12 (probably . .?)
Jason needs some of his bite back. He plays too nice and adheres to Batman's principles. Keep up with his outlaw shenanigans but make him more brutal and murdery. Only let him be in Batman comics when there is a threat as dangerous as Night of the Owls
I still love Jason’s “cameo” in the Emperor Joker arc. In Joker’s “dream world,” Jason’s corpse is shown sitting at a poker table with the other dead Robins, with a sign around his neck saying “Why didn’t anyone call in to save me?”
That's so friggin dark 😭😭
They never pull their punches when referencing Jason, Todd’s death😭 I know it can seem jarring if you think about how so many people come back to life in the DC universe has a grand scheme, but when you confine it to the interesting gotham side of the universe, it’s just really cool tbh. I always thought of him as a ghost or zombie.
Honestly I love Jason place in the bat family as the rebellious middle child who happened to become a super villain murdered a bunch of people (because if your dad is Batman that’s how you rebel)
And you’re right, Jason would never stop making “I slept with your momma” jokes to Damien
and Damien would deserve every joke
Jason would have tossed out "I'm your daddy" all the time.
why do i hear "I banged your Mom." in Jensen Ackles Voice right now...
The middle child has to have _something_ to hold over the youngest.
@@whytho1534 that means he's a middle kid as he's not the oldest or youngest
*sigh* I admit I am also here for the hair streak.. but yes more Jason, more Batfamily!
If Hal can rock the white streak so can Jason.
Honestly Jason being a parallel for Bruce works on another level if you throw Dick into the mix, because on one hand you have Nightwing the absolute paragon of justice that doesn't need to rely on fear to get the same results as his mentor and became a refined vertion of what batman wanted to be, and on the other hand you have, the Red Hood,the failed robin, and the absolute embodiment of vengince, and has renounced his old non lethal ways, and now fights crime by any means nesissary, and chose the jokers prior identity as his own, symbolizing how Batman's 2 greatest failures are closely tied, and is what Batman is afraid he might become
I always loved how nightwing was portrayed as a "lighter" version of batman
He still fights crime at night but he isnt afraid to smile and crack some jokes here and there
He also does not have plans to stop everyone like batman does because he honestely belives in the good in people
I always hated how they have been treating him in the last few years though he seens to be getting better recentely
His original resurrection was an interesting one. Lost Days was an interesting read to say the least. I feel like the Under the Red Hood movie did the resurrection pretty well. It made it simpler to say the least (just toss him in the Pit). That or I just like it.
And as far as the Tim Drake thing, what I always liked was how they improved the relationship in later years. Jason wasn’t entirely in the right, but Tim understood that.
Side note: Jason did have the duffle bag of heads at one point (according to Roy in Red Hood/Arsenal). Jason was all like, “I wasn’t an actual mob boss” to which Roy pretty much responded with “I think a duffle bag of eight heads would disagree”.
The animated movie was my introduction to Jason, Jensen killed it with the voice acting.
11:10 *"Talia, place Todd's remains in the Lazarus Pit!"* _(Jello-shovelling noises in the background)_
Finally someone's brought up how Talia slept with Jason which I also thought to be very unnecessary and just comes out of no where especially when you consider how Talia is famed as a sort of mother figure to Jason throughout 'Lost Days.' Now with my little rant aside, I just want to say I'll never get bored of your Jason Todd centric content.
P.S Can we get some Jason Todd ships on Shippers Guide
yes to all (esp the jason ship thing)
Uh. My guilty pleasure is Jason/Tim. 😐
As big as a convoluted mess as DC has become, what they've done to Talia's character over the past couple of decades is nothing short of criminal. She was such an interesting, layered, complex femme fatale in the 1970s-1990s. Then she became a plot device made of shock and cardboard.
@Megan Todd Jason Todd and Rose Wilson. They are just made for each other😍. Check out the DCeased timeline.
Jason and Talia... and I thought Bruce and Barbara was a bad ship.
Can we talk about Damien’s line in the Hush movie about Bruce covering his drink, cause I about died when I heard that
Honestly if any of the robins were to get their own show, I'd want it to be Jason,
I am honestly always here for more Jason Todd.
It's really interesting how Jason went from a characters that was rather split on how much people liked/disliked him (to an extent - I'm looking at you computer programed phone call guy) to a character that is genuinely well liked by a majority of the fan base. But it worth bringing to light the fact that - regardless of how many of us hate his death - we probably wouldn't like him as much if he hadn't. That dark "I died and am angsty about it" attitude, his blatant anger at Bruce, the fact that he was literally a dark foil for Batman - the whole "bringer of justice, protector of the people" thing he got going on, but with murder - is all what make him so compelling.
But we never would have gotten that had he not died. We would have probably seen him grow up and move out into his own hero like Dick did, but he probably wouldn't have the same punch.
Not to mention, had Jason not died, we probably wouldn't have Tim Drake - he would have no need to become Robin - and we would probably see Damian come in, and that would cost Jason to leave, and I love Tim way to much to lose him.
But a look into a world where Jason didn't die would probably be really cool. Like... Where would Tim be? What would Damian's outlook be on the family where he is like... 10 years younger and Jason and probably wouldn't see him living at the Manor. It's interesting to think about, if not totally mind boggling, because we just have no way of knowing.
Jason was a replacement for Dick. Grayson, was supposed to stay as Nightwing and Jason was going to stay as Robin. Because a vocal fandom didn’t care for him, they wrote him off the bat universe. He was then supposed to stay gone. He came back for shock value but people loved his return. It was a money decision to bring him back. Now, they don’t know what to do with him.
DC, frankly doesn’t know what to do with most legacy characters, Nighwing, Tim Drake, Simon Baz, Kyle Raynor, Conner Kent, Wally West, etc. It’s a sad truth. Plus, new writers make new sidekicks, Blue Bird/Lark/Signal/etc and it just makes it harder to do something for all of them [+]
More Jason, and maybe some Talia too, maybe tackle comic Nyssa as well, she doesn't get much attention. Those are some wackadoo sisters man. I'm so going to have a hard time eating jello now lol
I said it before, and I'll say it again.... GIVE ME ALL THE JASON CONTENT.
Batman: The Cradling of the Jello. Coming soon to Blu-Ray & Digital Download!
I'm so happy to hear they retconned Talia sleeping with Jason. It squicks me on so many levels. Was he legal at the time? Can he really consent if she's funding him, acting as a mother figure, and purposely encouraging his pit madness? Not to mention she knows she's already had a son with Bruce - it feels like she's seducing her would-be step-son. It's so much easier to enjoy her as a character if that night(s) just never happened. -
Yh awash like 20 when they slept. He had a beard.
I also like this happening because honestly, the entire league of assassins is fucked up. These people should horrify us and be amoral in ways that makes us uneasy.
@@lordbiscuitthetossable5352 she’s happy it was retconned not that it happened
It is so weird😭
@@c.i.a8359It happened right before Hush, so Jason was most likely 18, maybe last days of 17. Legal either way in Gotham City, NJ and the vast majority of the US as well as the rest of the world.
Ever thought about making a video about all the people who wanted/tried to adopt Jason? Like Bruce Wayne, Natalia Knight, and Dick Grayson. (And in DC Bombshells, Kate Kane and Renee Montoya adopted a little boy named Jasón, tho I don't know if that was meant to be Jason Todd or not?)
Or all his parental figures, potential and otherwise. Like Willis and Catherine Todd, Sheila Haywood, and even Talia al Ghul (as messed up as that went).
I just think it's so funny, this orphan has all these not-really-parents, and even Dick Grayson himself wanted to adopt him at first! xD
Wasn't Nocturna about to adopt him right when Crisis hit? Or is that Natalia Knight? And we never did find out why Willis Todd knows Lady Shiva.
Jason was grown when he met Talia and how tf can dick adopt a grown ass man lol they are practically the same age.
Megan Todd What’s so confusing about saying dick can’t adopt someone that’s practically around his age? Come on you know what I mean
The most interesting arc for Jason might well turn out to be to having him retire into a hopefully quieter life. It would be more convincing than having him active as Red Hood or some form of Robin, and it would make him a fine vehicle for telling stories about the price paid for being a part of the Batman Family and the good reasons that one could have to choose not to.
For instance, how much ability to actually leave the violent past behind can a former Batman or former Robin have? At some point Talia Al Ghul or Penguin or someone will come and decide that he is a fine piece for their plans of blackmail, vengeance, or brainwashing. Yet it would be even worse to try and remain an active part of that lifestyle. It can be a sobering tale to tell.
Yes, it's a hot mess but it's a hot mess I love.
I wish the comics would do more with the Jason & Talia relationship (the mother son relationship, not the sexual one) I feel like there’s a lot of potential there for both characters
If Talia still wants to get back with Bruce, having two of his sons call her 'mom' is a good step, especially since she and Dick never liked each other.
@@tomorrow4eva She should stop trying (and once succeeding) to kill them then.
DC has never had a good track record with reboots. Remember Zero Hour? So much potential.
Interesting to compare how DC handled Jason Todd to how Marvel handled the Winter Soldier...
and the others menbers of "Cap. América family"! Marvel just buried them since fist decade of 2000... a leatst this was the move with more diginity!
I love that Jason isnt mad that Batman couldn't save him but instead mad he never took his revenge witch of you watched Her other Jason Todd video after his death he wasn't mentioned for 11 months makes alot of sense to me Thanks for the content Casually comics I love this chanel and am glad it finally popped back up in my recommended videos
Bringing Jason back was definitely messier. I am glad that you mentioned his kill count possibly being retconned though. It really bugged me that he was welcomed back into the family and given "edgier" missions when he had straight-up murdered so many people.
I'm one step closer to making a playlist with your work. You are just so good.
Not only was it very localized near the end it was really neck to neck and I feel like he could’ve stayed alive, but I think it’s a very interesting part of his methods that he’s kind of a ghost or a zombie boy robin. It really hits hard how even around the people who knew him he just couldn’t come to mention him. And then he just comes back from the grave.
This was great. YOU are a UA-cam treasure❤️🔥🔥🤗
This is all interesting but I'm glad I gave up collecting years ago. As cool of a character that Batman is, his story has become so convoluted especially with all the retcons.
I like the way you incorporated extra info. You still funny.
If you love Jason Todd, you might like the first book I wrote about him called "Kindred Lives". It's a look at his origins and his short time as Robin. The book continues on as Jason makes a tough choice to follow his heart instead of staying on as Robin. From that point on, Jason now becomes Kindred, my own original character concept. This character goes on to live several different lives and gains power along the way. He eventually returns to Gotham as an older man in his 30's. This is a 60 chapter book, 600 pages and free online for anyone to read. Search "Kindredlives" on Facebook if you want to find a link to the book. Fair warning - adult content, adult themes.
I only really got into comics a year ago because of a few friends. But i have to say all the big comic publishing houses like DC and Marvel were really offputting to a beginner, and i was completely overwhelmed. The only thing that drew me in were the, by themselves, interesting character dynamics, especially the batfamily. But holy hell i think i only read a tiny fraction of it before completely giving up again. Jason and Tim especially are awesome characters but i feel like due to the cyclical nature of the batman franchise they got to be important for a few issues and then completely fade into the background once more.
I think its frustrating that these comics wont ever end. Its an endless parade of "but wait, theres more!" Coupled with ever increasing stakes that completely deaden the reader to any excitement. The whole reviving any dead character is also a huge problem.
An then these enormously complicated plot stories over several different series (trying to read robin wars was a literal nightmare, and im not even mentioning the massive plot holes and overall problems with that one) that you would have to research before even starting to read the newer comics.
Oh but then someone had the good idea to reboot everything, to mitigate all of the above mentioned problems. Except they couldnt even do that right, since they wanted every character to still have their epic backstory and be in prime age, so that you have new continouty problems like bruce, richards and damians age. Like wtf is going on here, did bruce adopt dick when he was like 16 wth.
I always feel like there are a ton of great ideas, storylines and characters in big comics but they get hindered by the money grabbing attitude of those in power and maybe the whole industry has a problem. A lot of the characters and themes could be much better explored in a smaller publication with less interfering characters from other franchises (like why didnt superman help bruce with robin? Where was the justice league? Why are some events happening with only one of the justice league founders involved despite being a major threat to the universe or whatever, and others are suddenly less severe but somehow the whole league is involved) and most importantly a real and planned and final end to it.
I can understand wanting to create spinoffs but why the fuck do they have to be explained away as being technically canon because wacky universe mambo jumbo.
Alsp Sorry for the rant i guess
Yup, I get how you feel. Honestly, I don’t want any crossover between the DC superheroes. I don’t want Batman in my Superman stories and Batman stories don’t work with Superman. Wonder Woman I can leave out all together and the others can do whatever. There’s just no legitimate justification for most of Batman’s plotlines when he’s got Clark on speed dial. It just makes Bruce a prick for making Gotham a “no Superman zone” so he can pretend he’s doing any good whatsoever.
@@manicpixiefangirl4189 yeah!!! Yes! Exactly this as well!!!! Having an entity like superman exist in the same universe as batman, and then even having them be friends, is a shotgun blast destroying all stakes. Why did jason die if zzs could have just involved superman ie? Why is superman even struggling with Luther if bruce wayne could engage in some corproate warfare/smear campaigns and/or equip superman himself. It's just... so bad...
13:00 Wait. What?
There's a mid-70s story where Batman is drugged and married to Talia. At a time when sex wasn't depicted in comics, it could have been implied.
There's a mid-80s story in an oversized book that is perhaps extraneous (elseworlds) and never referred to in the comics for 25 years until the story you're talking about now. Batman and Ras form a temporary alliance and sleeps with Talia, which is fine with Ras because they're married. Talia conceives a child but fakes a miscarriage. At the end of the story we see the baby left on a kindle couples doorstep.
Jason Todd's return and the introduction of Damien Wayne were two of the most exciting storylines I have ever encountered in my 50 years of reading Batman.
Your videos are fantastic!
Sasha, you are a delight. I love this channel! P.S. I hate how they ruined Superboy Prime: he was a good kid.
You are doing such a great job
Cant tell what's worse Bruce and Barbara or Jason and Talia.
Yes. The correct answer is “yes”.
Fun drinking game: Take a shot every time she says Jason
Logan Nunley WHAT DID YOU SAY BOUT MY MUM
Wow they really do make a mess of things at DC. Someone over there needs to make a Czar of Continuity over there. It's one of the things I don't like about comic books.
Complex feelings. Growing up, I always hated Robin -- as a concept. I preferred Batman as the ultimate loner, the damaged brooding orphan hiding behind dark clothes, dark thoughts, rage, but with a flinty conscience.
Honestly, Bruce always made a terrible father figure & the last place any kid belonged was chasing violent criminals alongside Punchy McDark. My attitude on that might have been influenced early-on by Neal Adams' recurring images of Batman grieving over a dead Robin (Batman vol.1, #232, Detective vol.1 #408, Tales of the Demon TPB cover, etc.). Although this was just a recurring fake-out, the scenario probably worked because it registered as all too likely.
And then Dick was away at college or Titans Tower for the better part of a decade. (Who took longer to finish four years of college: rich kid Dick Grayson or working stiff Peter Parker?)
So I got used to solo Batman stories.
Even in team comics, Bronze & Modern Age Batman never played well with others. (During the Silver Age, everybody was an extroverted boy scout and fit seamlessly into a team ...) At one point in the '80s, Bruce tells the JLA to shove it & forms his own band. Tellingly called The Outsiders, this group consisted of Batman-like vigilantes & misfits misfits. And Bruce overawed them. (I gave The Outsiders look, but it wasn't for me: The Batman-led team in my head would have been more like an updated Batman family, some drawn from Bruce's own Addams-like chosen family, some not: Helena Bertinelli's Huntress, Barbara Gordon's Batgirl, Nightwing, Black Lightning, maybe Black Canary ... but no kids & no one very "super.")
Now, I'd admittedly stopped reading the regular Batman comic by the time Jason Todd was introduced (having gotten busy with college myself). The thing is, I think I would have liked him as a character -- his street urchin background sounds like a dramatic contrast to Wayne Manor. Arguably, he starts out from a dangerous place. I remember later thinking that characters like this could have a place in a rogue ("I'm not wearing a hocket mask") group like the Bat-Men (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight, vol.1 #21-23.)
But the whole idea of putting someone else in the *Robin* outfit, of putting that bright target on another kid's back, always bothered me. Moreover, the drive to replace Robin seemed artificial, fan service to Boomers (don't at me -- Gen X happened! We've been mad at Boomers longer!), or -- most likely -- a bid to retain copyright. It wasn't story-driven and didn't address the problem with (at least un-powered) teen sidekicks as such.
So, when I heard that they killed off Jason, I thought: "Well, that's what would happen." It's what the comic had been foreshadowing for twenty years. And the Joker was exactly the psycho who'd go out of his way to do it.
Of course, by the time they brought Jason back, it was a foregone conclusion that there would always be a Robin. So, whatevs. Nobody stays dead. Pimply teens can beat up gangsters & supervillains. Batman is a terrible dad who keeps collecting strays & no one has anything to say about this. Yeah, I guess undead Jason'd be bitter, if character development is one of the rules we're following in this universe. \_O_/ (And, agreed, he'd totally skeeze Damien about getting with his mom.)
There are things better be unknown... I can't never unknown the fact now... My mind is burning acid.
And, yes please, more Jason :3
You have a serious Mount Wundagore Wanda Maximoff thing going on in this video. Excelsior!
Death wasn't always a revolving door (at least for main characters). Villains died and comeback and the same for sidekicks/lovers. It really wasn't until Superman (though really Gene Grey) that changed the stakes.
You mention people encountering Hush in collected form. The same of Jim Lee's Superman "For Tomorrow" but its MUCH WORSE. I wish DC heavily marketed "Ending Battle" instead. It had more of Superman's supporting cast & rogues.
I'd love to see a video on Red Hood and the Outlaws as the trio is great together
I think it's funny that Batman TAS didn't want to use Jason Todd because his story was too dark but then they do a "Death In the Family" style story with Tim Drake in Batman Beyond.
I was a little scared when Sasha asked "Did you think this was a game?" I am ready however
I actually quite liked the Hush film. I don't think it is as good as the original story from the comics but I enjoyed it because it took me by surprise. I always watch these films based on stories from the comics and while generally enjoying them there's always a wee disappointment at knowing pretty much what is going to happen.
I've enjoyed Jason as a character ever since he came back to life and I enjoy watching videos of you talking about him, so crack on and I'll watch!
Well I understand why they changed Batman hush in the movie adaptation. Hush was always about tricking the audience like when they made us think it was Jason, but in the movie that wouldn’t work anymore cause the comic already existed
Batman should be holding Jello
“No Jason, I should have gotten here sooner. Ewww Cherry flavor.”
i wonder if you make a content on all robin or others robin
11:17 Jello Jason shall forever live in my head now….thank you Sasha😂
Granted, I'm a general amateur when it comes to comics but I'd known about the Talia/Bruce rape debacle but had no idea it was an accident on the writers part. Like how does that happen tho? How was he the only person that missed that? Or did someone else read it and go "This is fine." Wha???
Also, Talia sleeping with Jason reminds me of the whole Cordlia/Conner nonesense from Angel and that was just as weird.
PS. More Jason, yes please.
They thought he did it intentionally and were like weird flex but ok; and then fans asked about it and he was all oh did it not go like that oops.
@@CasuallyComics So even paid fanfiction writers don't do their research.
Your subs are blowing up!
6:47 gave me some major Dan Backslide vibes
You are good in it ... all the best for your life .
Hush was the comic that got me back into comics in high school. I own like 3 copies of it haha.
very nice outfit....the window is working....thanks for video
Please do jason ships on shippers guide. I'd watch that so many times
I am really new to this whole comic thing and haven't even read any DC yet because it all seems so confusing. If you could help a girl out and do a video on the reading order of some characters or eras I will forever be grateful.
I don't like that they took away the Superboy Prime element (although it had to be done), because having Talia just digging him up and throwing him into the Lazarus Pit doesn't make sense, the Pit can't resurrect people!
Well, wasnt there also that issue where they killed off damian, via damian clone created by talia, and then bruce went insane, all the robins were like "we'll help you bruce" and collectively decided to throw damian into a lazarus pit... which they miracliously found despite bruces prior attempts to destroy all of them.... and for some reason that actually revives damian, but with temporary superpowers???
I think by this point dc comics are just 90% plotholes, and can therefore be considered to be of less substance than cheese
@@Sirvaria damien was resurrected via a chaos crystal not a lazarus pit.
11:17 Thank you for that. 😂
Fml anyways love your videos keep up the good work
Love the power girl window
I like your computer background
i sit through most ads for the Wood family.
Catwoman is my favorite character, i'd like to see a review of her first appearance, also in Batman #1
In my opinion, Jason works SO much better as the dead symbol of Batman's shame and grief. Whether or not he should have been killed in the first place is another discussion, but keeping the death as a part of the Dark Knight's history just added a lot of nuance to the character, which has since retreated back into the shadows.
See, there's a tendency for people to write Batman as essentially perfect - he's always prepared for everything and he always does everything right. The death of Jason was an eternal reminder that this wasn't true, and that Bruce Wayne was as human as anybody. The big, flawless superhero was unable to protect someone close to him when it really counted (or at least, that's how he'll always see it), and he never quite got over the guilt from that. The empty Robin costume in the Batcave was an eternal reminder of that incident, and it kept us aware that Batman is HUMAN, and humans can make mistakes.
Now, however, Jason's come back to life, and in recent years he's been treated more or less as if he never went away - and that makes no damn sense. Regardless of how he was resurrected, Jason was KILLED. He was murdered by the Joker, and then he came back to life as a villain. For crying out loud, he SHOOTS people! Having Batman treating Jason as just another ex-Robin when he should be traumatized at the very sight of him... well, it's weird. It's weird, and illogical, and the character literally was better off dead.
Yes... yes to all of this.
Jason Todd was more significant dead then he ever will be alive.
That's just the sad truth.
You also bring up a good point about Batman's "Perfection Problem," which has become more & more of an issue over the years, I can't help but wonder if it correlates with the timeline of Jason Todd's resurrection?
As long as Jason was dead, the writers & readers always had him as this reminder that Batman could fail but once that mistake was retconned out of existence, suddenly there was nothing at all to act as a check upon Batman becoming a plot device.
It's probably not as cut & dry as that but who knows?
@@gojira387 Thanks!
Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. I think the general consensus is that Batman started his voyage to 'Mr. Perfect' status when Grant Morrison started writing him in JLA, and justifying his presence there amongst living gods by making him the World's Smartest Man - which, to be fair, worked fine in that book, but it did lead to ripple effects down the line. Maybe following that, Jason's resurrection got less resistance from writers than it otherwise would have, because once Bats had already more or less achieved perfection status, they didn't see much point in keeping him flawed.
Personally, one of the reasons I've always enjoyed Batman as a character is that he's NOT perfect, at least not in the sense that he can do everything. Yes, he can do some amazing things and he's got amazing gadgetry on his side and he's really really smart - but he's still just a guy in a costume, and everything cheer-inducing that he does is something he's got to WORK for. Look at 'Knightfall' - he pushes himself way beyond his boundaries in that story, and he LOSES, and it's still one of the best Batman stories of all time. Or 'Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader', which makes the point that Batman is inevitably going to fall in battle; he's inevitably going to sacrifice himself on the altar of his own obsession. In every possible version of things, he dies in the line of duty - but he keeps on fighting anyway, and every time he avoids death for one more day, every time he narrowly avoids defeat just once more, every time he falls and gets back up makes him that much more awesome.
But that didn’t really happen. Hell, people blamed Jason for his own death and completely let Bruce off the hook. Hell, they did it AGAIN with Stephanie Brown. For me, Jason is my favorite because he and Bruce have a father/son relationship that’s almost a reverse Luke/Vader. Heck, I’d say out of all the Robins, Jason is the most like Bruce. There’s just way more interesting material when he’s alive.
i just finished Arkham Knight today and the JT twist was amaazing!
It's weird to think about how recent Red Hood is. They don't feel new.
Lovin that outfit. Ya nailed it
have you read the very short story where the Titans use Wonder Girl, Hawk, Jason Todd Robin, Wally West , Speedy and Aqualad on a team? it was one of Jason's last appearances and really the only time he was a Titan before he was killed
for a bit New Teen Titans was in Baxter format and sold in comic stores and other premium outlets like Tower Records. some of the more important stories are from this era . the direct sales allowed them to do more pg rated stories.
Could anyone tell me the comic source at 1:49 with ghost Jason?
Talk about the Hush movie!
"If you have accepted the revolving door of comic book deaths hit the like button" I really havent, I think it has significantly damages the medium as a hole by becoming a crutch for cheap drama.
But what the hey, take a like anyway.
Another yummy episode. 🤤😛🤠
Geoff Johns wanted him to be the Jason Todd of Earth 2 who survived the Crisis.
What's an annual anyway?
Matt Wagner deliciousness on the covers!
The Lazarus pit explanation in the Red Hood movie made sense as it is looking into more on the aspect of Batman rather than the multiverse as a whole. Still I disagree that it was his main method of resurrection over what superboy did. Overall Jason's death was for the better and now we have him as the complete opposite of Batman. Also just knowing that Talia slept with Jason would have made a rivalry between Damien and Jason or a rivalry between the son of batman and the son of the red hood.
I keep wondering if some future DC writer is going to retcon Jason into being Damien's father.
8:48
On the one hand, adults trying to write streetwise, cool teens never comes off anywhere close to authentic. On the other hand, whatever artist did this issue decorated Jason Todd's squat with posters for obscure Portland, Oregon-based hardcore punk band Poison Idea. Which totally fits. The "Eric Peters" poster didn't ring any bells to me, unless it was meant to be Eric Peterson, guitarist for thrash metal band Testament, which would also make sense. The only Eric Peters I could find who played guitar is a dude who does acoustic Christian music, but he didn't put anything out until the late 90s. Anyone know who this could be referring to? Or was the Poison Idea poster just a coincidence, and I shouldn't be reading too much into these?
Huh boi. That was fun.
Autopay is awesome sometimes because this look is badass af.
That hush movie did hush and huntress dirty
Woah nice outfit 👌🏾
Give me all the Jason vids 😫
Nice.
There should be a crossover between Jason and Bucky. Or the very least an epic rap battle.
The reason I like him is that he is a rebel. I mean how many people actually do defy Batman???
"did you think was a game?!" LMAO no, gimme the game!
Yassssss dean(Jensen ackles) is amazing in everything
4:00 why would clayface know about Jason? He voted to off Jason that's why
Count me in the camp of why did they have to change Hush so much.
wait how old is tahlia?
Im thinking i might do a comic version of everyone poops its a great metaphor for the current state of comic books
I'm still confused about the whole "punching the wall of reality" thing. Like.. what on god's green earth? 💀
Also, could you please make a video on Talia? Her origins, Grant Morrison's run, what you think of her being transformed from an anti-hero to a full-blown villain etc etc.
13:15 Sasha Corleone.
What would be more radical would be to leave them dead . Since when has THAT been done ? Hair streaks don't move me . Richard's has had his temples greyed since he was 12 (probably . .?)
Did Red Hood ever fight Nightwing?
they should of kept him a villain or Punisher type.
Jason needs some of his bite back. He plays too nice and adheres to Batman's principles. Keep up with his outlaw shenanigans but make him more brutal and murdery. Only let him be in Batman comics when there is a threat as dangerous as Night of the Owls