Fate Core: The Best RPG Everyone Rightfully Hates
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Fate Core, published by Evil Hat, is one of my favorite RPGs. But it's such a strange RPG that trying to introduce people who are steeped in D&D game culture and theory is a tough thing to do.
It'd be really nice if there were a fantasy supplement that showed people how to do the things they are used to doing in D&D, in Fate Core.
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Aspects are a great idea that FATE implements, but they implement in an uninspired way. Aspects just create modifiers. Which is... boring. Plus, it makes different aspects mechanically identical, the only distinction being when to apply them. To me this is a waste of an idea. On top of that, FATE uses a metacurrency, a complete immersion-breaker in my book, very extensively and systematically.
This is the best comment on this video
I am a huge fan of Void Star Studios product "Strands of Fate", myself. It takes what Fate Core does well and adds optional depth and simplification, ways to play more traditional games, reduce importance of or remove aspects, increase importance of or increase presence of aspects, examples of common settings/genres via the "Strands" system, how to make your own Strands, a robust powers system, and so on. Everything has a default level of complexity, and ways to adjust it.
The following is based on the second edition... The first edition has its perks, but can be largely forgotten in the context of the much better second edition.
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The default Strands show how to create ways of doing things in the "Strands of Fate" style, and are in four genres: Superheroes, Cyberpunk, Lovecraftian Horror, and Heroic Fantasy (AKA D&D-Like games). The default strands all include a list of standard, recommended, and discouraged optional rules for it.
ALL of this is in the core books, and there's some very good advice for newer GMs in there. The first edition "Strands of Power" book is also helpful for second edition, in that it has relatively easy to update character archetypes like vampires, sorcerors, warlocks, wizards, hackers, and so on.
Aspects are modifiers yes. But they also true elements of the narrative. It's like the players can do ANYTHING they want and it can be portrait in the game world. In D&D you would need special rules for every possible thing the players could do that generates narrative AND mechanical effects.
(Hope my non native english is good enough to be understood)
Clearly a critic by someone who have not read well the core book. There's à whole chaotee about extra that can simulate magical or technological objects or even superpower.
Aspect are just some good luck moment or some moment when you wanna makes sure that the camera is focused on your character because of who he is and what he does and know.
@@quintenskevin I think Fate is not good at that either. That being simulating magic, technology or superpowers. It all kind of feels the same, it just influences the dice a little bit. And aspects are no different. A cool concept, wasted as it is transformed into modifiers.
Agree. Most folks would rather mod 5e rather than try a different rpg that does what they want in the first place. Part of the reason is that there are so many 5e players available.
I wish I knew any other GMs that run systems other than 5e.
Was that uncalled for?
@@theosophicalwatermelons8181 I run Pathfinder 2nd edition. Same vein, but man so much better than 5e, at least in my opinion.
another part is that they don't know other RPGs exist yet. lol
@@DungeonMasterpiece The rhetoric people use to talk about other RPGs like Fate doesn't help either. It feels like in this video the game is being judged for not being DnD instead of being itself. The game isn't that hard to pick up.
"INT is their dump stat lol." That was what was ridiculously hard to catch phrase that seems like it was it flashed by in maybe 1-2 frames at 8:01 . Have to save someone else the headache :)
Just a single frame; if you watch this on a computer, the "," and "." keys can be used to step back or forwards one frame at a time. Oh, and also the text on screen is (very appropriately) mispelled, having "their" written as as "thier"
Lmao Int is everyone's dump stat, except for Int Casters.
Thanks for the help!
@@actualwafflesenjoyer thank you!
@@LaMirah Thanks
I am watching on my phone and had to set it 0.25x speed and tap the screen repeatedly to catch it, lol. Took me a few tries but I finally caught it.
In my own Fate game, I have the Devil's luck trying to get players to understand how to make aspects, both mechanically and thematically.
Players want to be held by the hand. I said what I said
I have never felt a video so hard. I had so much trouble both in running and introducing a Fate-based game (The Dresden Files RPG) to my D&D group and no one ever felt comfortable with how to invoke their aspects or how to deal with combat. We had one amazing combat where someone figured out a few tricks and they managed to take down a BBEG while being relatively lower powered ONCE and then for some reason it just never clicked with them ever again. I actually sent this video to my group and went 'THIS! THIS IS THE ISSUE!' so thank you.
Also just in general I've found your videos to be super thoughtful and insightful and you're probably one of my favorite new TTRPG channels. I'm amazed your following isn't higher at this point. You've got great content, please please PLEASE keep rolling.
Thank you for the kind words, and I'm glad this video was so helpful!!
Dresden Files RPG is a Fate based game, but it's not Fate Core. It is came from before Fate Core (and after Spirit of the Century). In my opinion, DFRPG was even harder to grok than Fate Core was.
If you ever want to consider revisiting Fate, check out the newer published Fate Condensed. It's still effectively "Fate Core", but the rules are presented more clear and concise than the Fate Core book, with a few default mechanical settings that might be more friendly to new players. Also, Fate Accelerated is a very streamlined simple game that works great for many types of settings.
However, it doesn't really address the main criticism of the video about how it doesn't really describe how it's different than D&D. Though, I'm not entirely sure I agree with the premise that it's the responsibility of non-D&D books to describe how and why they are different than D&D. I don't know of any indie RPG that does this, and that puts what I think is an unreasonable burden on all RPG publishers other than WotC. After all, even D&D didn't really explain in their books why they make very radical system changes between some of their versions either.
A classic example from the Core book is when they're talking about creating an fantasy world. One of the characters, Zirn, in a wizard. They begin to talk about how they want magic to work in the setting, then simply decide that they want it to work more or less like any other skill. It felt hand waves rather than an exporation of the various ways that magic systems can work in Fate.
My main setting is in Fate. It has an odd magic system. In it, "mages" find spirits and make deals, subjugate them, or are subjugated by them in order to bind the spirit to their souls and gain their powers. But the spirit also gains a voice in the mage's head. Mechanically, this is some stunts, a stress track for the spirit representing its power reserves, a unique set of powers, and an Aspect that gets added to the character sheet.
The fun part is that if you bind more than one spirit, the next Aspect gained replaces one of those the character already has, to represent the fragmenting of the character's personality as more and more voices fill their heads. If can get kind of dark. But Fate was the only system that let me do the magic system properly. And it let me create one hell of a game.
That sounds awesome
Thank you! This is a perfect example of extending FATE to have a tailored world. Something I sorely lacked when we were playing, and which I think pretty much gave me a very negative view of the system as just the players inventing things on the fly and nitpicking what the GM said to give themselves a stackable modifier.
@@krinkrin5982 The stacking mods and nitpicking the GM descriptions...yeah I was that player. He'll I was that DM. I was just so deep into Dnd and some Savage Worlds I couldn't get out of that crunch mindset.
Strangely it was Mutants and Masterminds that broke me out. The fact that they broke down all spells feats and class abilities into classes less point buy system sorta just reorganized how I saw all rpgs. I got to play FATE Dresden files after and had a much better experience.
I really love your magic system and its an excellent example of the power FATE gives to narrative.
So how to play wizard if I want just "standart" magic and I wanna to learn new skills?
I played fate alot, but we always avoid magic
Your "odd" magic system sounds like the magic system from the Dying Earth series by Jack Vance, which lends its name to the Vancian Magic system that normal DnD uses. Spell slots are how many spirits you can cram into your head and/or how often you bargained or force that entity to do your bidding before an arbitrary rest period, at least in the beginnings of DnD. You kinda just flavoured the cleric a little differently.
"this is the thesis statement of Fate Core: the less potent the character’s
narrative, the less likely the character is to succeed."
absolutely perfect thesis statement that encapsulates how amazing FATE truly is
which means a player that is a poor storyteller is going to have a poor character. I find that annoying.
@@thekaxmax i wonder why.
@@chadhardt6136 It's a limit on the game that's on the player rather than the character. So a player can't enjoy a game and setting that that may love by relying on die rolls rather than being a creative actor. Some people prefer that, or can't do otherwise. Doesn't affect me so much--I'm a GM with 35 years experience, with 30 years of one campaign in that history.
@@thekaxmax Any game will depend on some kind of skill, if the player is to have any agency at all. In something like D&D, your character is limited by the player's number crunchy wargaming skill and general system mastery. Fate on the other hand runs on narrative so naturally and inevitably it depends on narrative skill. Ultimately this boils down to 'a game depends on player skills in whatever the game is about'.
If you don't want a game relying on narrative, you probably don't want a Fate game, and if you don't want wargamey system mastery, you probably don't want a D&D game.
@@Elukka and FATE rewards actors and social quick-thinkers, not the general run of social-misfit/social-anxiety-ridden/OCD-spectrum gamers, which it punishes. Unless the GM helps them a lot.
As a fellow lover of Fate, and someone that may a very generalized guide of How to Play Fate, this video makes some good points. I think honestly you could bring these points to a number of smaller ttrpg developers, as I think they get a little too close to the material to see the forest for the trees. Still, a wonderful system, and I'm glad to see more folks covering it.. Well thought and structured video.
Glad you appreciate it!!
I will be taking a look at it since I became interested in the setting of Ehdrigohr and got curious what FATE was about through that.
I had gotten into Fate with age of Arthur, and I remember thinking it would be amazing when Evil Hat brought out more settings for the system. But so many of them never clicked with my table group, and some of it I could never really put my finger on why that was.
I think this video summed it up nicely. It was too big a jump to the left, and it’s vagueness was strength and weakness.
I have found the same with Cortex myself as well, although with Tales of Xadia it might be more concrete.
What Fate game would you recommend trying to see if the muse can come back? Worlds of Fire I find are too brief, wondering what your suggestion would be
@@Preppyicon my suggestion is finding a genre and picking one of the full blown fate settings that fit, not a “worlds of.” The worlds of books are more like examples of how you can use fate to make other games, and aren’t really enough to run a long campaign. (Mostly)
For sci fi, Bulldogs is great if you like firefly/Farscape. Mindjammer is more trans human and harder. Diaspora uses an older version of fate, but is hard sci fi. Starship Tyche is more Star Trek fate.
Fate Freeport is D&D plus Cthulhu fate.
Fate of Cthulhu is pulp Cthulhu where your PC’s can actually be from the future where the mythos won, and have travelled back in time to try and stop it. Or they can be modern people.
Dresden fate (accelerated, though the older base version is great too) for urban fantasy and a great magic system.
Atomic Robo for pulp fate.
There are so many.
@thedungeonnewbsguide I just watched your video on it.... informative and concise... I might switch my system for it
Huh. You know what - The point about there being no simple entry for Fate Core Fantasy hits home so hard. When I was starting Fate, I just bought every obscure Fate Worlds supplement from RPG-Drivethru to find a good way to represent magic in Fate. This handwaving "The wizard does the same things with the same skills as any non-magic user, just flavored as magic" feels just wrong. Magic is included in Fantasy BECAUSE it does things that are impossible otherwise.
I initially got into FATE through the Dresden books, and am so glad I did just because of how it addresses the use/inclusion of magic, the supernatural, and fantasy races. Could easily see myself basically running games of Fiasco in FATE otherwise... just maybe with a happy ending. >.>
@@SvafaBlackhand There are different Fate games out there with examples of types of Magic systems, but it's a vague, nebulous, and fictional concept so it's hard to find something that works for everyone. I'm not sure if you are referring to the Dresden Files RPG or Dresden Files Accelerated, but I found DFA interesting from what I've seen. IIRC, it treated magic in a similar way as Atomic Robo "Invention". The most D&D like Fate product I've seen is probably Freeport Companion, but I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.
Its related to why 4e DnD failed: game designers see physical feats, magic, class abilities etc as the same.
But players dont.
So writing a ttrpg where a wizard is 'does attacks but with ' and a fighter is 'does attacks but with fundamentally misses what players wants. They want the fantasy, not to see behind the game design curtains at all times.
This is also where open narrative games fall down: they say things like 'hey players plan your character arcs and design your mechanical feats' instead of 'think about your goals and what abilities you would like to have'. No one can take that designer speak seriously
My only experience with Fate was as a player. I found I was spending so much time thinking up how to make aspects out of everything around me, the story became secondary. Like the Big Bad is monologuing big plot points and Im thinking how i can use the floral arrangement in the scene to my advantage.
At least we can concead that its great at tatical thinking.
This is why FATE will never be the solution for any of my RPG needs.
In gamifying the parts of the TTRPG experience that are usually the purview of freeform roleplay, and by placing arbitrary restrictions on when players can interact with the narrative (or rather, force the narrative) through metacurrencies, I've never had a FATE experience that felt like I was a character inhabiting a story.
It always feels to me like I'm a player at a table talking about a story I'd love to actually be playing in.
It's fine if you enjoy that. I don't, nor have any patience for it.
@@mikevides4494I don't get this angle. 90% of the roleplaying that actually has some chance to change story or world elements in a TTRPG are gamified.
Every D&D DM will ask you for a check in those situations; every Cyberpunk GM will ask what kind of skill your character would have that would help you in that situation; a FATE GM will ask you how you can justify that action.
You're missing the forest for the trees in this regard, which seems to be a big issue with most d20 system players. You can interact with the narrative at any point in FATE, in fact you can it a lot more than in most other systems. You are not in the typical player seat other RPGs give you, you can add actual details to the story; you can create opportunities to be exploited later; you can give an indirect advantage to another player.
Fate points will be there when you want and need them, and if not, you can make more with your decisions (there are so many ways to regain fate points with a competent GM). They're a powerful tool to gain an advantage, not something that limits what you can do.
@@mikevides4494can I ask what you use instead. I was recommended Fate by a friend and after reading going through the website for an hour this is my biggest fear about this system. I’d love to know what ttrpg you use to avoid this
Being fair fate was always more into the "generative" side on the table of narratives than the premade storyline classic narrative. You literally can make shit on the spot. And that is the fun thing about the game foe me, like a gm.
You make some great videos man! I'm not just saying that because you mentioned me either. I've seen your videos from some people in my communities recommendations. Keep at it man, you're making some great content!
Thanks so much! That means a lot! I don't plan on slowing down!
My number 1 roleplaying pet peeve is "D&D 5e only players" who try to cram every genre under the sun into 5e. Guys, just go play Savage Worlds. It's made for that and it's very easy to learn.
To me 5th edition is a great gateway RPG or a game for what I call RPG dabblers. It's to simplified for my tastes which is also part of why I don't like Fate but I'm willing to try almost any new RPG once.
No, making something that isn't meant for it is fun
@@Chuck9852 did that weird, pointless, out of place dig make you feel good about yourself?
eh, I might actually say the same applies for savage worlds. its good for broadly pulpy adventures, but it might not be the best for long form minutia progression campaigns where you might want to use some varient of gurps.
@@midshipman8654 in a sense I agree with you. Savage Worlds and GURPS can both do any genre broadly. Savage Worlds excels at pulp action, while GURPS does a better job at gritty realism.
I love me GURPS and universal systems. I feel like you missed the mark on GURPS supplements though. At least in so far as characterizing them as necessary. They mostly are the explanatory guide on how to use the core mechanics to reach a theme or emulate an ability of the stated supplement topic. A thing FATE could and should steal. GURPS supplements rarely add anything new (outside maybe a few techniques from Kung Fu or items like in all "Tech" supplements) but spend a lot of time on how to theme skills, setting tropes, build atmosphere, historical summaries, and the always amazing Appendix N style lists of inspirational material. I strongly implore a deeper reading of GURPS as the characterization of a needlessly complex dumptruck of systems misses it's true value as a TTRPG system of study and design.
BTW this is true of GURPS 4th Edition. GURPS 1-3rd Edition would regularly add new advantages, sometimes contradicting each other. This confusion and profusion prompted the creation of Fourth Edition and the current hardback genre and setting books.
Also worth noting: the Fudge system, the ancestor of Fate, was a reaction to GURPS's crunchiness. The author of Fudge wanted something lighter for his "Faerie" supplement and invented his own system ... which was basically a dice mechanic with suggestions for use. Fate actually managed to be both more concrete and more adaptable than a number of other Fudge "builds".
A Masterclass on the value of clear language, useful as always to the aspiring game dev.
I'm one of the few players who was introduced to the TTRPGs with Fate Core. It is a bizzare experience, to see so many people agree on what is norm and what is strange, while me seeing things as completely opposite.
Spot on. My group tried FATE, and it really didn't fit great for anyone but me. We settled on Cypher system as doing the best job of offering what we most wanted in a core system.
I found FATE has worked great when playing with people who are a bunch of drama nerds, experienced GMs, writers, and/or teachers. Not so much with others. The "anything you want" problem really frustrated people who needed some specifics and limitations to help guide their narrative thinking.
Cypher system has turned out to be an excellent fit. It does most of the same things right that FATE does, but answers the problems you raised in this video. It is narrative-first and supports that sort of improvised narrative play. However, it is more mechanically specific and includes nods to the ideas of things like "classes", "levels", and "HP"... at least enough to ease you in until you realize they actually function totally differently from D&D. It has a stock flagship Science Fantasy setting that will be accessible and familiar to medieval fantasy players, but with it's own weird twist. It has setting specific supplements for types of games people are probably most likely to gravitate towards: Science Fiction, Super Hero, and two additional Fantasy settings.
I also found the Cypher System to be flexible enough for what we wanted... but with much better explanations on how to use it and apply it.
Good point about who could really use the system to it’s full potential, that ties in with how I compare it with games like Vampire The Masquerade; which really suits larpers (advanced drama nerds).
Cypher has a dedicated book for fantasy as well.
I tried FATE Core once. I eventually understood the basics, but it felt so bare-bones, like being taken to an empty field and being told "GO" and noting else. It's about having so much freedom to "do whatever", that it's easy to NOT KNOW what you want to do.
It's why I like the Forged In The Dark system; it has *just enough* meat on its bones to give you a nudge in the campaign/setting direction while not constricting you.
I am a big fan of the Dresden Files and as such, i purchased both iterations of the game (Fate and Fate Accelerated). Howerver, going through the rules I have a hard time making sense of those in a gaming environment. They are easy to read/understand but i find them hard ro apply. Your video makes so much sense to describe the confusion. I would live to hear more from you on how to play and even run (and prep) a FATE game. Cheers!
It's in the backlog! Stay tuned!
Just run the previous edition of Fate's Dresden Files RPG. It's great and arguably better than this edition anyways. Last edition of Fate had less of an identity crisis.
"And playing a roleplaying game is playing D&D."
I don't know how we got to that point, but it's such a terrible disservice to lump all the good RPGs out there with D&D. Those poor bastards.
Marketing.... Lol
I only ever played a game of D&D in my life and was bored to death, as far as I'm concerned its a war game with rpg attached to it, OSR titles like lamentations of the flame princess are a different matter though...
@@paulll47 Totally depend on who your playing with and of course, the style of the D/GM.I've been bored and entralled in a multitude of games, and it always breaks down to a simple GM understanding and mechanic: Does the player always HAVE to roll to continue the story arc, or not. If they do then all player agency is robbed and the game will become stale fast. If the player only rolls when something is critical and chance enhances the play, then you have a tool for generating excitment and longevity. My 2c :D
@@justicebrewing9449 Of course the GM makes or breaks the game but I can honestly say that I've rarely been bored by a game as I was with D&D, I think its due to multiple factors ranging from clunky mechanics (I didn't know you could get clunkier than oWoD but damn D&D, you are something else) to a setting that quite honestly fails to entertain me.
For me it's the quickest way to tell lay people about the hobby.
I'm one of the "haters" of Fate. I really tried to give the game system a chance, but it's just not for me or my group, but that's because the game caters to another type of gamer. I like RPG's with deep mechanical and simulationist elements while Fate is a rules lite narrative system, basically two opposite game philosophies. There was a period when rules lite narrative systems were all the rage and Fate was at the top of the list and there was a sort of elitist attitude amongst the fans of those games which soured my opinions even further.
I'm very much a simulationist GM/Player. My home system is GURPS! But I am currently running a French Resistance FATE campaign. I've been running it for about 2 years or so. And I run it simulationist. And I've got some great mechanical crunch for the players to bite into. As a simulationist, I've primarily been what could be called a "character simulationist"--in that I'm interested in exploring character and seeing how they change in response to their environment and as part of their environment. That style of simulationism is what drew me to GURPS in the first place. And I have to say, the way I run FATE? I've found it to be one of the best systems for character simulationism. I'm also pretty proud of my ability to get gamers like you (and me) to enjoy FATE...because I think it 100% can work in ways that harmonize with a simulationist philosophy. It just involves some minor tweaks...and some of those tweaks are more about the perception/interpretation/explaination of the rules rather than the rules themselves.
At first, I thought Fate was the bee's knees... but then I realized that magic is the skill that is all skills and I have yet to see a handling of it that keeps it in check while still letting it be fun.
There is a system that hits a sweet spot that many people who like things about Fate but can't stand it might like... BareBones Fantasy is a d100 system that has a nice mix of generality and specificity in it. I think someone might be able to port over that magic system to Fate and make it work.
There is a sweet spot between abstraction/generality and specificity/crunch. Fate errs on being way too abstract, I think. I mean... I like rolling different dice for different stuff.
I think DCC RPG hits a sweet spot for a lot of people. Their Mighty Deed Die makes warriors seem like magicians of brawn and steel.
That was my issue as well. As soon as he called GURPS "dated" he might as well have said "no longer trendy". GURPS works as well as it always has. It's simply not the most popular paradigm these days. And that tells me that you're following the crowd that what's popular equals what's good.
I've actually found simulationist style games in Fate way more satisfying than in something hardcore crunchy like, for example, full-rules GURPS or Hero. Super crunchy simulationist games inevitably hit a wall (the perfect map of the territory is the territory itself, which is useless as a map). Using Aspects, et al, from Fate, I can "simulate" any number of elements and complications. Simulationist games don't need granular rules for every single possibility (and they can't).
To be clear, I've been playing GURPS since the mid-80s, played a lot of Hero since then, too. I just find Fate a more elegant solution.
I'm not sure how "Simulation" can apply to fantasy/space opera/anything to which there's no actual real-world comparison. And for "Modern" gaming, there are better, more streamlined systems to use.
My group found the mechanics very easy to understand and pick up. Of course we are experienced in D&D and knew full well the concepts of rpgs. As a new gm of fate, i didn't find it too difficult to learn and play or teach. The game system teaches the mechanics you need, but leave a lot of options for the GM to establish such as magic and the like. I used Fate Accelerated for an online game and the players were so lost in the story and aspects and the narrative that they didn't miss leveling up or the normal D&Disms. They still talk about the fate campaign and never really mention much about our other D&D campaigns. Story over mechanics is what it seemed to boil down to for us.
I think it's actually easier to use Accelerated when switching from D&D. Core's skill system makes it too easy to fall back in game-mechanics mode, while Accelerated simply drops all that stuff, there's just the _way_ you approach something. Lot harder to fall in mechanics mode that way.
@@nagranoth_ I agree 100%
That's very interesting for me, because I found the switch from DnD to Fate quite difficult, since it did not come natural to me to encourage players to manipulate the game after years of playing RPGs the 'regular' way.
@esenozbay I can see that, my group loved the fact that I would have them narrate the outcomes so they had some idea of control over their players scenes. In D&D you can do the same thing but the system has a more pass fail feeling to my group. They feel like Fate allowed them to really open up and have fun with what their characters were doing. But every group is different.
Ive watched Wil Wheaton's gameplay of FATE on geek and sundry's Tabletop and I still have no clue as to how it works. And i played FU .
As a gm and player, is there a reason why evil hat released not one but two (correct me if im wrong) simplified versions of FATE?
You need to have a storyteller that wants you to be part of the story. The key phrases and abilities you'd build into the PC gets ignored and you just need to follow along. I've not had a good experience. These aspects were never used, it's lame and you feel uninvolved. I'd give it a shot again, but walk away if there isn't collaboration.
(Incoming long comment)
I adore Fate.
My journey started when I wanted to find a generic system (that was definitely not GURPS) to play with my son. I came across Strands of Fate. While I loved it and saw tremendous potential, there were some things that I didn't quite grasp, so upon learning it was based on Core, I picked up that book.
As I read Core, things seemed to make more sense (though I learned later I was misunderstanding some things) but I was confused by how simple it was. I kept thinking, for example, that there should be lists of manoeuvers. How do I trip someone in combat? How do I disarm them? How do I throw sand in their eyes? It took embarrassingly long to realize that all of these actions were simply Create an Advantage.
But even then, it was a bit confusing. Someone online gave me the example of invoking an advantage against someone who was "Afraid of Mice" and their explanation suggested that by spending a Fate Point to invoke, I now had a mouse in my pocket, ready for use...
Moving on from there, I went to FAE, figuring that going to the "simplest" version would make it all clear, but it made things worse. Having "Sun Caller" as an Aspect means you can use fire magic? I was looking for stunts and systems to explain it all. It took me *far* too long to figure the system out, but that was because I had to unlearn every other game system first.
One thing that actually helped immensely was coming across Four Coloured FAE and its writeup of the first Avengers Movie as a session of FAE. They also did a writeup of Batman: Year One as a campaign. They made things quite clear for me and I have to say that I now consider FAE to be the absolutely perfect game for superheroes. Nothing else touches it.
In regards to magic, Fate can't really give a definition of how it should work simply because the point of Fate is to "adjust the dials" and make your own game. But that is why so many people get frustrated looking through a dozen books, seeing a dozen magic systems, and not liking any of them. I myself tried making my own system several times and finally just shrugged and decided to more or less do it like Zird, but that doesn't truly satisfy me.
I often thought that the reason there is no good, solid, official Fate Fantasy book was a desire to distance itself from D&D. But that seems odd since so many examples in the book use a fantasy setting.
As I said, I do love Fate. It is definitely one of my top 3 RPGs, but it does cause me some frustration at times.
"Four Coloured FAE and its writeup of the first Avengers Movie as a session of FAE". - Any chance for a link? Having trouble googling for it.
Here's the link. Avengers Accelerated is midway down: station53.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-essential-four-color-fae.html?m=1
@@AntonioCarlosPorto I can't post a link because UA-cam will delete it, but google "Avengers Accelerated: The Invasion Begins - Station53"
As a longterm role player who never bought into spell slots, levels, classes, alignments, vancian magic and the other d&d dogmas, I've found the entry into Fate to be something else entirely... it's about how unnatural it seems to suddenly change one's fluid speech into something invoking-compelling-aspects-fate points. The sudden change from telling the story and describing the action to Fatespeak takes the players out of their immersion and into linguistic conversions.
Never had a problem with that at all. The aspects and stunts are supposed to be part of a conversation. It’s one of the 2 most RP pure systems on the market. The only one that may be more RP heavy is Powered by the Apocalypse.
@@christophermichael6844 your mileage may vary. Fate conversations don't have to be phrased in fate-speak but often are. Perhaps experienced GMs might phrase "the sofa was on fire when you laid down on it" and the players can convert that to game terms mentally but new GMs tend to "as you lie down on the sofa you find it has a fire aspect which is being invoked"
@@RockOfLions That’s…not how a GM would ever phrase that. Maybe, very maybe, you might hear this from someone who has never in their life run a game of any kind.
@@christophermichael6844 as a matter of fact I heard that line from a GM (with some credentials and experience) promoting the Fate Core system, but the immersion in Fate speak comes out in other videos where the maps are marked off in "zones" and sticky notes literally say "fire aspect" etc.
@@RockOfLions how would someone lie down on a sofa without knowing it was on fire
Very well-researched and appreciated take. Since you're discussing non-setting specific games, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Cypher System.
This is something I have never even considered. I was really into the indie RPG scene in the early 2000’s, and my exposure to every kind of weird RPG system imaginable has left me entirely blind to the mindset you describe here. I suspect the authors of FATE came from a similiar place.
I hate to say this, but this is because a lot of indie developers had their heads up their asses smelling their own farts and thinking it perfume. There was a LOT of "we're just BETTER than you" snobbery in the Indie RPG scene, typified by The Forge forums. I mean, Ron Edwards liked to describe people who liked what D&D was doing as "brain-damaged." The intended audience of games like FATE Core is not players new to the hobby, which is why this whole mindset described exists.
@@Stray7 I mean, you’re not wrong. There was definitely an air of superiority over the tone of some of the people in The Forge movement. The community I was a part of at the time, the Norwegian indie RPG scene, was very different both in tone of discussion and in the games we produced. I consumed a lot of Forge games, but I was never a part of the community.
@@EisenKreutzer Good to hear there were other scenes. What sort of games came out of your scene?
@@Stray7 The one that’s garnered the most international success is a surrealist RPG called Itras By.
@@Stray7 I wouldn't necessarily assume snobbery. I don't know how plugged into it you are, but several of the designers of Fate ALSO play D&D still. I think they would agree that D&D is a better system for a D&D style game. On the other hand, the more different a game is from a D&D style of game, the more awkward to hack it.
That said, I don't doubt that you've encountered some toxic RPG fan experiences though. Gatekeeping can be unfortunately common in just about any fandom including D&D, where I've seen some people being VERY nasty about Fate, even going so far as to claim it's not really a "game".
One funny thing I've noticed among a lot of Fate players is that many of them actually liked 4E D&D more most other D&D players did. For myself, there were elements in 4E that made me more receptive to Fate, such as emphasizing cinematic combat, using improv techniques, giving more room for player agency and narrative input, more hackability, and starting characters as already being a little more heroic.
I had to laugh at GURPS being called dated. Yeah, it doesn't look like modern RPGs because no one did what GURPS do best, better. Which is a set of tools to make your own home brew system. I play with my one home brewed system and although very different from GURPS, it has always been a source of inspiration.
GURPS was and still is the best generic RPG system out there. For poor kids like me, who didn't have a lot of money, buying a couple of supplements I could run a diverse set of games.
Sure, if you have unlimited money, you can have a shelf fool of RPG books and professionally designed games, but that is not the reality of a lot of RPG hobbyists around the world.
I still don't know why I should play FATE from this though. You mention that a bunch of DMs are frustrated with 5e and position this as the solution but I have no idea if they're frustrated with the same things I'm frustrated with, nor how FATE can help. I can knock over a bookshelf in 5e too.
More…….. fate
Please
Should I do a "no really how to play fate" video?
@@DungeonMasterpiece Yes! We Fate players would really, really, really appreciate a way to talk our OSR and DnD/PF-Onlyist friends to try something that is NOT DnD or PF!
@@DungeonMasterpiece Yes please! As someone who was a player in a Fate game where neither us nor the GM had a proper clue what was going on, I really would like a "how to actually play Fate" video. Reading the rules made me aware of how flexible and powerful the system can be *if we get it right* (and we didn't).
@Dungeon Masterpiece - Have you considered writing a primer or 'newbs guide' to FATE Core? Sure it could be really useful!
This is definitely something I have in the backlog
@@DungeonMasterpiece any updates on that? I love the look of this system but learning it as a complete beginner has proven tough due to my lack of experience.
I want to get other players excited and prepared to play this, but I'm not sure how
@@Phystle It keeps getting buried further in the backlog. I'll get to it eventually
I've been working on my own TTRPG system for a while now that shares a lot of similarities with FATE (and also some of its pitfalls). This video will be helpful for my 17th rewrite.
Right there with you. I'm version 14 myself. That doesn't include all the sub versions before i rewrote the system again.
Doing the same, right now on my 3rd full rewrite 🦉
Yeah, I don't have a specific count for my rewrites, but I've been doing a lot of tweaks. Clarity in language is a big concern, however ...
I REALLY tried to like Fate. But it always looked to me like rolling a dice made of smoke. Pbta is beautifully narrative, but with enough crunch to make you grab it...
Comparing Fate Core’s sourcebooks to Gurps is a pretty stark contrast. Gurps sourcebooks are the absolute gold standard in this category. Books like Martial arts and Tactical shooting are master classes in how to make a sourcebook, dwarfing anything 5e has remotely put out. This being said its important to understand even Gurps fell into the DND train somewhat with the release of Dungeon fantasy in 2017 which is undeniably in response to the popularity of DnD 5e.
We should note that many GURPS supplements are the gold standard for useful, detailed, well researched and well written RPG books. The majority of them can be used with any RPG system.
I feel like this video misses a lot of context. When Fate Core came out, some of the more popular versions of Fate were generic fantasy (Legends of Anglerre) and bog-standard science fiction (Starblazer Adventures). Those books exist, the lack of a book about it is not what is stopping Fate from taking off.
Also DnD is only ubiquitous in America, and even then that isn't because DnD itself was popular. My theory is it became specifically ubiquitous after all of the podcasts and twitch personalities started using the system. When I first got into rpgs, most of the circles I knew of only played warhammer or battle tech. And they played mostly everything other than DnD. This was when I was playing in 3 different states as well.
@@ramblers2971 DnD has been ubiquitous in the US long before podcasts and Twitch ever existed. It was the second RPG system ever made (at least, one descended from table top war games).
@@ramblers2971 I think you are at least partially right about the podcasts and personalities, but I think there was a big Stranger Things effect too.
@@ramblers2971 if you started gaming in the era of Warhammer and Battletech, you don't remember the days when D&D was (pretty much literally) the only game in town. Without its success, popularity and ubiquity, tabletop gaming really wouldn't exist.
As an older player used to crunchy games? I had given up on narrative games till I got to Cortex Heroic (now Cortex prime). It's still not the best fit for me compared to HERO but it makes sense to me. Trying to go through Fate gave me headaches.
I think the big problem a game's advocates can have is assuming everyone thinks the same. Or want the same things in play. The sooner we can understand what someone else is wanting the sooner we can figure out if our system of choice is a file for for them or not. Too often we assume our game is objectively better rather than recognizing personal tastes matter MORE.
I feel Fate was way too "simple" for my taste. but you do you, I found Dungeon World and that game engine is to me what I wanted from Fate when I read about it being rules-light.
Can't knock PbtA games, it's a solid system, it's fun, and there's enough DNA in common with Fate-type games that it's accessible without too much more crunch. I'm partial to Scum & Villainy or Starforged, myself.
That's weird because Dungeon Worlds is considered the worst implementation of a PBtA
HERO and Savage Worlds do GURPS better than GURPS does.. :)
So... you have successfully analyzed the marketplace, now you must generate a product to fill that gap. It. Is. Your. Destiny.
My fiancee says this to me all the time. "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem." Lol
@@DungeonMasterpiece not wrong. Now, make the thing!
Great video on this. I have a number if these books and have ran the system a couple of times always to the same effect. The players get one or two sessions in and we move to a different game. All of the fate worlds seemed extremely niche, creating a generic system and then immediately putting a massive restriction on it. Instead of helping the players and GM realize a big standard; fantasy, sci-fi, or horror game. You are immediately encouraged to do some esoteric or extremely limited setting. I concur with your statements across the board. Saying they created a great system, just missed the mark in selling the product to the masses.
I disagree that dungeon coach (in particular) is trying to make dnd 5e something it isn’t. I homebrew extremely similar to him. It’s about using 5e as what it is but better. Keeping he theme/feeling and core gameplay but adding in a few homebrew or ironing out a few specific rules that could be much better.
It’s about keeping it heroic high fantasy with potential for horror; levels and spells and spell levels and classes, etc BUT seeing issues or a lack of clarity/specificity in particular areas that were left to vague or ‘up to the DM/GM’.
I love heroic high fantasy and all the core aspects that make dnd what it is! But for example the crafting system is unusable in 5e it’s ridiculous and slower than real world crafters! I love 5e but (for example) added in homebrew for falling object damage (based in the size and wt. of the object and the distance it falls) how is that ‘seeking another system’ it’s not.
I’m adding homebrew IN for things left vague/unfinished (up to the DM) and/or fixing 5e rules that are bad (like the crafting as is)
Likewise finding systems to quickly craft custom monsters or alter a monsters stat block to make them more challenging is NOT me seeking a different system but more optimally using the current system. Understanding it best.
So I think you misread some peoples issues and goals. The dungeon coach has never seemed to be looking for a tostada non dnd experience to me just optimizing and improving 5e!
I’m also working on a 5e compatible third party book. It’s meant to improve, compliment and add to dnd 5e NOT turn it into another system/game. I’m adding lore, adventures, homebrew rules, a whole bestiary, new spells, magic items and many d% and other random dice charts.
To add to the game/compliment and give options for rules that feel (off or unfinished) alternate rules. For specific issues.
Not to change the whole game!
Ok rant over.
Sorry for the rant I just feel there are those who should look into other systems/TTRPGs and those who just want to add/tweak.
If I want another game I’ll get/play it or as I’m the type make it myself. Actually I am working on two other custom TTRPGs….
It sounds like Fate might be good if presented better, sounds like a massive headache to understand the way it’s presented now.
Good video overall, thanks.
I’m leaving my rant as it’s honestly how I feel but please don’t think I’m to upset or anything I just wanted to explain.
Interesting. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that I'd holy disagree with you. And please note that my videos are also in some ways a bit rhetorical.
That being said, the dungeon coach shared this video in his discord and agreed with it.... 🤣
@@DungeonMasterpiece Well I suppose I can only speak for myself then... Still you have many great points in the video and I learned a lot about Fate (which I didn't know almost anything about before). I still stand by what I said there is a distinction between improving D&D and using another 'more appropriate' TTRPG system to the style/world or gameplay you'd prefer.
I feel like smoothing out rough edges in a rule system, adding rules that were lacking and adding to a game is different to needing an entirely different game system to express a world that is not a normal D&D style world.
I feel like I have homebrewed rules to Every game I've played to smooth out rough edges or fill in gaps. Its just adding to the game and customizing it, that's all.
One of the two TTRPGS I'm currently working on is more directly D&D inspired and uses most of the core concepts but is different enough (in far too many ways) so that it HAS to be its own thing and not a super detailed homebrew mod to 3.5 or 5e, etc.
The other is very different and is far more of a worldbuilding game.
Yeah, I still don't get it...
I invoke fallen bookcase and what happens? Who rolls? Rolls what? Against what? What's going on???
I got into call of cthulhu immediately, d&d5e no problem, Dark Heresy easy, anything from world of darkness also easy. Fate? I'm completely lost and confused. If I have to spend and absurd amount of time doing research about the rules that should be explained in the core book then it's really not worth it. Make it compelling so people will actually want to get into it and not be blocked right from the start.
Exactly. It's a very loosey goosey system with terrible explanations that I was only able to figure out after trying to play it for 3 months. And I'm seldom the dumbest person in the room.
@@DungeonMasterpiece There we see the problem. Most players do not want to learn a new system, because they don't find learning a new system fun. DnD is like English in a way, a lingua franca that is consistent and stable. Sure, each edition or homebrew might be a different dialect, but at the core of the system it's a shared language on how things work.
@@f14uubercat the system learning thing isn't as big a problem as you'd expect. Nobody complains when learning traveler, savage worlds, or call of Cthulhu, which are starkly different from dnd
I've played FATE core, and I appreciate it's narrative driven mechanics, but I vastly prefer PbtA games. Granted, PbtA isn't a single role playing game, but more like an engine upon which many games have been built. But FATE requires the GM and the players to do so much of the heavy lifting in making their game play they way they want it to. PbtA games do all that heavy lifting for you. I would love to see a video you did on PbtA.
Agreed! I think both systems (or types of systems) aim for something similar (focus on narrative and cut down on mechanical crunch), and I admire what Fate does, but after I got introduced to pbtA I am quite spoiled by it's elegance and it's simplicity in getting started with it as a player. Fate is great and fast but needs quite a bit of skill as a GM and as a player. PbtA needs a good GM, yes, but it focuses on player decisions (who can rely on some simple yet cool actions).
Now I want to make a D&D campaign with PbtA mechanics lol
**insert meme** You are a GAMEMASTER not a STORYTELLER.
That is the problem with every carbon-copy of Critical Roll, and Critical Roll itself.
Just sitting around the table and weaving a story, isn't tabletop roleplaying.
You are throwing away a VITAL system to the whole reason for roleplaying, the rules, the mechanics, the system itself.
Without it, you are just rolling dice and saying what your character is doing, without having any real weight behind it, there is no real consequences of your actions beyond a slap on the wrist.
Your character cannot DIE, unless to create drama. (And they are most always resurrected in the next chapter of the story)
Would love to hear your thoughts on Savage Worlds. (Also, do not feel GURPS as that dated, especially given it's flexibility...but that's just me)
bristle at your description of GURPS as “dated”. This is mainly due to the implication that the “modern” approaches to RPG design are necessarily *better*. To be frank, I find FATE’s foundational mechanic of Aspect-invocation for Narrative manipulation to detract from its ability to serve as a *Roleplaying* game. Characters don’t see their worlds in terms of Aspects to be invoked, so any decision to invoke them is done on a meta-game level that divorces the player from the perspective of their character, thereby working against the very thing I hope to achieve in playing an RPG.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with its existence as an option, although I can’t deny wishing that FATE and games taking a similar view of the role of narrative would label themselves as something other than an RPG.
I think D&D is more of a game that models drama and fiction more than it tries to model any kind of verisimilitude. If you watch a movie, it often doesn't matter whether one dude has a piercing weapon or a bludgeoning weapon (or even a weapon at all), unless there's some special thing in the story like he wields the sword Exmagical or something. And Fate incorporates a bit more of player as co-writer or director, not just actor, so Meta isn't as taboo (and actually can be encouraged).
It's just a different style. Not everyone is used to that style, and some even find it so different that it can be mentally jarring. However, it can be a different flavor of fun experience too.
GURPS is so wrapped up in enumerating every single aspect of play, that it loses sight of what a RPG should be. You have to analyze all the math to see what a character/vehicle/world etc is all about. Some people may like it, but I can't see how it can provide a character-based perspective.
Used to love FATE core, but when a company publicly states a hatred of straight white men, I never buy their products again.
Suddenly, after watching this, I feel a lot better about my inability to wrap my head around Fate Core. I have both GURPS and Fate Core, and if I was told to run a game or character in one of those, I'd probably pick GURPS. For all of the crunch, it does a pretty decent job of at least explaining how the system works
This was the issue I had with FATE and similar heavily narrative based systems and why i ended up never actually trying it and dropped one of the few systems like it i tried.
The structure being as loose as it is frustrated my when trying to understand exactly what it intended, and even other players and GMs that liked it and similar didnt really have answers besides 'just do it' because it came naturally to them to Just Do The Thing.
I feel like this is such a weird criticism? Like, they aren't shaping their own system around making the game seem palatable to D&D players? Fate is its own game and I really don't think people have to be babied into learning a different system, much less should someone dedicate the entire first section of their book (as I've seen with several others) with un-D&D-pilling their readers. I don't really agree that this is in some way shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to adoption, D&D only players have to break themselves out of that mindset, I've never seen any smooth entry in another system get it done because at the end of the day people only ever truly switch from D&D when they are willing to put the effort in to discover other systems.
Oof, you're right ... I just turned around to look at my FATE collection and I see ... System Toolkit, Horror Toolkit, Space Toolkit ... and no Fantasy Toolkit? Checked online and one does not even exist. I do have the Freeport Companion, but that is setting specific as opposed to a tool for GMs to build their own fantasy worlds and systems. Weird that they flat out avoided making a toolkit for, BY FAR, the most popular RPG genre. Way to be different, Evil Hat, I guess.
I'm playing only GURPS since forever and was checking out if there is some simpler system to get the game rolling.
Calling Fate best rpg is..well an opinion I dont agree.
Fate seems like weird half game half collaborative story telling, where each person has their idea what is happening. Instead of mechanics, the story is gamified eg. you pay meta currency to twist the narrative in your way, you declare something true based on an aspect, overall the system makes you try to come up with stuff that fits the aspect for your char/scene to make your roll better. That's nicely visible on the tabletop gameplay with one of the designers, where the player rolls -2 (scale is -2 +8 ..?) and the GM asks him how he's gonna try to get out of it. The player then starts coming up with reasons to invoke various aspects.
This style seems to cater to really specific mindset or expectations out of a game
Now I want to buy fate. Sounds amazing.
It's phenomenal. Combat is like a game of 21 with building and countering aspects. keep that in mind as you play.
I don't think the blatant stubborness of most D&D-only players should be blamed on the writers of Fate. Or any other game. Appealing to their practices and tastes is a good marketing move, but is not a design need, nor a creative duty.
I agree leaving "normal" players out is not the most brilliant commercial strategy to widen the market for the product... but I don't think agreeing with the normal is the only, or the best, much less the right way to do creative work. If marketing should always mark the limits for any innovative endeavor... well, then a lot of the innovation will have to be cut short and dumbed down to accomodate stiff habits and stagnant stereotypes.
IMO, the reason FATE won't touch stuff related to D&D is because it DOESN'T WANT TO. Which, IMO, is a perfectly valid reason. D&D players already have D&D. Other games don't have any responsability to cater to them.
Narrative drives the mechanics; how do you go about explaining this? I think you have it. Someone or someones need to write a basic bog-standard low fantasy scenario patiently illustrating just how the narrative drives the mechanics, pc by pc, scene by scene...
I think that powered by the apocalypse games do a much better job of this, which is why, in my opinion, they have eaten FATE''s lunch in this narrative-driven rpg niche.
Not that I have run much of either, especially PBTA, as I've gafiated, previously running D6, Cortex, fudge and early fate or homebrews. I was never a very good GM anyway, lazy, hate crunch but loved GURPS Space for some reason, the world-building SF nerd in me
Honestly a poor take. Fate was released in 2004 and the fate core was released 2014, a year before D&D 5e was released. How exactly was it supposed to cater it's marketing to a system that wasn't released yet? This was the era of pathfinder 1e, not 5e. Fate core was the ultimate lightweight system, completely customizable to the tables taste via narrative play. The GM and players were meant to build the setting and any additional mechanics together for their tables setting. A setting that was an ALTERNATIVE to pathfinder 1e and D&D 4e and not bound by the standard fantasy tropes. Not to mention criticism of lack of standard fantasy setting framework and criticism of the release of "gurps" style setting books being directly opposing points. Is this obtuse on purpose? a standard D&D framework would be a "gurps" style setting book. Not just a lack of understanding Fate core's greatest strengths but complete lack of research of the systems history.
Fate is amazing. My beef with it is that it is derived from FUDGE but the designers of FATE (particularly Fred Hicks) do not give credit to the creator and designer of FUDGE (Stefan O'Sullivan). They lifted the dice and the attribute ladder and then hid behind legalese to say that they didn't need to credit someone just for game mechanics. They're right about this, but FATE wouldn't exist without FUDGE. Much like the creators of Pathfinder didn't need to acknowledge Gary Gygax but they did anyway.
There's a lot I like about FATE. Very flexible. Not too rules crunchy. Easy to tell a story. However, and this is the critical part, I like to write and create. I can come up with aspects til the cows come home. But, I have played with others where such creativity doesn't come as easily. And this is where the game becomes work. And uninviting. Prior to that, we had played a Savage Worlds campaign and there just wasn't the same vibe. Sure, as GM I did the world creation load, but the players could play without feeling like they had to think like a creative writer. Sure, say what their character does, but authorship isn't needed and chucking dice felt satisfying enough.
If I were playing a game with writers, actors, free thinkers, then FATE would be the game. For most others in society however, they don't like the extra creative load.
The one thing I despise about fate more than the game itself are the fans of the game. I've never met a fan base as pretentious or passive aggressive as fate fans, they're like the Rick and Morty fans of the TTRPG world.
For a game that's meant to be altered and customized the fans tend to be violently against changing the game outside of the pre-defined alternate rules published by the devs in the toolkits. They have this idea that fate is perfect as is and if you change it it's because your IQ isn't high enough to understand.
Speaking of which I can't stand how passive aggressive fate fans are about trying to explain the game to you when you criticize it. It can't be that the game is flawed in anyway its that you're too stupid to get it, and they'll talk down to you for long periods of time like you're a child that needs to be educated.
Dungeons and Dragons most definitely worse than FATE in terms of design, and it's so much harder to change. Despite this the community is so open to changing and homebrewing the game and don't talk down to your deigning to think that you could possibly have done better than the original.
/rant
I've said for years that DnD is not a game to run everything with. It exists to create a very specific vibe in a very specific setting. It's not good with horror past certain levels, it's not really got the teeth for political intrigue without great effort on the part of the DM, and it quickly falls apart if you try to jury rig it to anything that doesn't support the supers style of characters it defaults to.
I personally lean more towards gurps than fate for the same reason PBTA is anathema to me. When I by a set of rules, I want a SET of RULES, not a 40 dollar book that basically amounts to "Just make up shit, lol" Because I happen to have a keen enough grasp of game design by now that I can do exactly that for an entire system, for free.
"...I want a SET of RULES, not a 40 dollar book that basically amounts to "Just make up shit, lol"..."
No offense, but I think that's a very inaccurate, oversimplified, and unfair take. It is just make shit up in regards to settings, not rules. The rules are just generalized rules on mechanically handling things that have narrative weight in a more generalized way. Tables and subsystems can be tools used in RPGs, but they are by no means requirements.
But I do agree that D&D is not a game to run everything in. And I also think D&D is the best system for the experience of a D&D game when the mechanics are a big part of the experience for some people. It makes no sense to try to translate mechanics, just stories.
@@groovydecoy366 you're correct. I was exaggerating for dramatic effect, but the sentiment is the same. General mechanics are *fine* but if I could have made the same system but better in all of two hours and reach the same level of usability and ease of use, then I don't want to buy it. Plus, most general systems aren't that great since, when you're made to run everything, there are a lot of things the system will suck at. As compared to a system designed for that thing. I'm not saying you're wrong to like fate or other light rules systems. I just don't care for them. The only one I have a particular hatred for is pbta, and I say hatred with no exaggeration. I absolutely loathe it and how it has spread like a cancer.
FATE desperately needs a second edition under a new publisher that actually knows how to operate within the current market
Heck, if they had it already the OGL fiasco could've brought a bunch of 5e players because the mass of players seem to be rules light leaning, instead a lot were thrown into pf2e just to bounce back to 5e because that system is amazing on what it sets out to do, but that isn't what most players are into
The thing about GURPS that is think is probably its only fault in my mind is that it doesn't explain itself too well in the area that it needs to.
All you need to play GURPS is success rolls and maybe the attributes. This idea that its overly crunchy is very much untrue, and it comes from that fact that people see all of the extra rules and assume they are required for play, which is just not the case. Those rules are there for the people who want them. Who knows, maybe you're running a game for a bunch of math graduates and you wanna give them something to work with?
GURPS only mentions the fact that all the rules are optional in the 'quick start' section, which I think is its greatest flaw. They should've really hammer home that everything is optional.
I once ran a one off using only attributes and it went very smooth. In my opinion DnD is far crunchier than GURPS.
Its still far far more crunchy than Fate, for sure, but its not even close to as extreme as people think it is.
I'm used to play fate, but now I'm playing exclusively tricube tales.
Fate has simple rules but it's not a rules light game or makes for an easy game to run, especially the fate economy it's overly used to the point a character without fate points loses almost everything that makes him feel unique. Some times it even removes player agency. Player: "I put the house on fire to slow down the enemies". Gm: "only if you expend a fate point to create an advantage". It makes the players feel their actions aren't important only the fate point is.
For me fate is very flawed. The old second edition is better than the new game. And even so I do prefer tricube tales to run my adventures when I'm more focused on drama. It has a karma/"aspect" system similar to fate points but it's not overly used.
It has similar mechanics to tiny dungeon and it's far more easy to hack and I and my players have fun tweaking things from campaign to campaign. We are experimenting with abilities similar to special moves from PbtA games with grate success.
As someone who played Fate maybe a bit too much, I think it's a game that doesn't actually benefit from the players understanding the game itself.
In fact I only found it detrimental once the players achieve any semblance of system mastery, they can and will break the game left and right without you as the GM noticing even before the first session.
It needs particularly large constraints on the players once they reach this stage.
Otherwise it is a genre of gaming where it isn't as much a GM and a handful of players, instead it's a game where 5-6 GMs sit down to play. Not for the same audience as D&D or GURPS or any other traditional RPG.
I'll still take GURPS any day.
I like the crunch, and still having the ability to do anything I want to.
If we want hand wavey game mechanics like Fate, Cortex Prime is the way to go.
Yup.
The hyper niche concepts seems to be a strong element in a lot of contemporary independent and "It's Not D&D" games on the market. "In this game, you will be playing high school students whose parents are going through a divorce while trying to solve a mystery which is engaged with solely through romance mechanics involving the NPCs who populate your school and local mall." It is way too hyper specific and, yes, is one of the things that turns me away from most contemporary games. At best, the hyper specificity makes for one fun campaign, but it is not very replayable.
It feels like everyone making indie games today is a devout adherent to GNS Theory and... uh... well that usually a flag for me.
Meanwhile, games from the 1980s and the 1990s renaissance tend to only define their worlds in broad terms. A fantasy world with elves and dwarves and dragons. A gritty cyberpunk world with cybernetics and corrupt megacorporations. A fantasy cyberpunk world with elves and dwarves and dragons and cybernetics and corrupt megacorporations. When a game gives me the world and only the world, and leaves the "Who You Are" to the imagination of the players and the game masters... after running games for almost 30 years, I know that those are the games I can successfully bring to the table.
The irony for me is that I stayed away from universal systems like GURPS in the 90s because they were too vague, and now I stay away from universal systems like FATE because the "pick it up and bring it to the table" materials are often too hyper specific.
GNS?
i will still defend gurps everyday in comparison to fate. I'm not entirely sure why but fate points bug me sooooo much. not that they exist but how you acquire them. if it was just justified as burst of willpower and you get a certain amount per session then fine. but there is no in world justification for what they are and why you get them with compels and it bothers me so much. i desperately want the world to have internal consistency and fate points fly in the face of that, unless the world you are playing in is explicitly meta and could be bent in this way (a fun idea but I don't want it in EVERY game world)
Fatecore has the same issues as a lot of non-dnd systems. Any Fate character feels like they are 90% defined at the first level, which means it is hard for characters to grow and change through a large campaign. The leveling system makes it hard to numerically differentiate different kinds of creatures, which makes encounters feel way too apple-to-apple. In fact the entire system is designed to produce characters with similar numerical distributions regardless of player intent, which mitigates player specialization/diversity. Additionally, the advantage system creates a situation where battles can be planned and executed in a very deterministic manner, which mitigates the potential chaos of the story.
You can have that opinion. Though I think that D&D lacks in the ability to develop specific character concepts because there's so little variety at level 1 and everyone has to mechanically level up and gradually shift themselves to being mechanically more like the character type they envisioned in the first place. That's actually what drew me away from D&D into Fate, is I kept having character concepts in D&D that just didn't work in the class system. (I found 4E actually more friendly than 3rd or 5th in that regard).
Fate characters are encouraged to change, but the change is narratively (and their Aspects), not strictly becoming more powerful (which they can do as well).
Now, it is easy for a GM to have a bunch of enemies that feel basically the same, except maybe some different Aspects. I would say that the Adversary Toolkit helps a LOT with better guidance on making enemies seem more varied.
I'm not sure I understand the criticism of similar numerical distribution. Doesn't point-buy in D&D act in a very similar way (and most D&D games I've played in the last 20 years have used point-buy). Diversity isn't just their stats, but their Aspects and Stunts. It's possible to have 2 characters that are very similar mechanically but very different narratively, or 2 characters very similar narratively but different mechanically.
@@groovydecoy366 I am very used to DND 3.5e where there was much more mechanical differentiation between builds, especially as characters got into the higher levels. Also, I am very not used to point buy, it has a very strong normalizing effect on stats that i don't enjoy. The issue i have with the standardized stat array is that it makes most of the characters feel like different "genres" of the same build rather than entirely distinct entities.
For example, in dnd 3.5e your average mage will invest all of their resources in pushing their casting stat as high as possible and will give very little attention to equipment or other stats, whereas a monk will need a bunch of stats to fully take advantage of their build, but basically no equipment, and a rogue will often end up having a bag of tricky items to facilitate their core strategy. The aspects determine the flavor of the numbers, but the numbers beneath them largely remain the same.
As for your first point, I think that is something that will depend from person to person, but I feel like if i want to have a fully created character when I start an DND campaign, i should just start at a higher level. What i like about DND is the idea of having a character who starts out very blank and is largely defined by their experiences in the campaign. I think that makes campaigns more immersive and gives the characters a sense of history that is lacking in other systems that lay out their characters immediately.
Anyways, thanks for the detailed response, I love thinking about RPG systems and what makes people like or dislike them.
Honestly the idea of FATE sounds interesting, but the verbiage and explanation of the mechanics is very counterintuitive. Your example is…. well it’s a good example of what I mean. “Create a books piled everywhere aspect,” and “further invoke the books piled everywhere aspect to trap the wizard.” Both of these statements don’t make sense unless you commit to the idea that “aspects” are really just objects, circumstances, or situations.
Another issue with FATE and why it’s not more popular is that such an open ended system or set of rules can actually stifle creativity. Its why true sandbox games, be them TTRPG or video games, aren’t that enjoyable for most people, or at least not for long periods of time. When you have no or little structure to follow or to create ideas from the vastness of possibilities is stunning. If someone told you to write a story where do you start? What kind of story? What genre? You have to figure all of that out first before you can actually start writing the story. But if someone told you to write a mystery story about a detective past their prime who is brought into the mystery by their significant other being hurt or kidnapped then you’d be able to start writing the story a lot sooner. When it comes to sitting down with a group of people to play a game most people don’t want to spend several hours creating the setting and narrative for the entire game, let alone for their individual actions. Now it doesn’t mean FATE is a bad system, but it does mean that a lot less people are going to want to try it out at the very least, let alone play it for months or years.
Your comment that FATE doesn't have a basic fantasy world with detailed crunch for spells, combat, and magic items describes /exactly/ the crunch FATE avoids....
1. The core book is bad in many ways.
2. Buy a game that uses Fate and learn how to use it. My first error was not doing this.
I tried to gm it when it came out, but it was so different to what we where used to and no one really understood it. I also played it as a player, but never really became a fan. To me it’s just a +2 game.
It has inspired so many other game systems like 2d20 and Cortex Prime etc. which I had more luck running. The systems are a compromise that seems to be easier for the players to accept.
its telling that the descriptions lean on the technical and barely nails any high fantasy. Telling me how the cars engine works doesn't nail the fantasy and empowerment driving that car. In fact it is the opposite. This is why Apple sells lifestyle with their product and Microsoft emphasizes features .while ultimately there is more power in what windows might have to offer... people are off and running with apple products and most don't look back.
Complaining about the number of books, but sitting in front of bookshelves of books…
I’m not from the US, I play RPG for 30 years and I haven’t really cared about TTRPG fads. But just now I started looking youtube videos about TTRPG, and I have to say I’m terrorized by this DnD supremacy. That the value of a system only exists in comparison to DnD. I feel sad for people who never thought RPG can be more than killing goblins and leveling up
Genesys is also an incredible system for narrative play. Just getting into Fate for a Bleach rpg adaptation and your videos are a pretty solid start
Interesting that you talk about people trying to cram every setting and type of playing into D&D, and then talk about how people should try to cram the vanilla fantasy setting into Fate. Perhaps that is missing the point - let there be a system for all the niche ideas like AI DJs, and systems that do Tolkienesque fantasy really good, because their mechanics are not meant to be universal.
That was ironic.
You just spent ten minutes complaining that Fate isn't well explained, and that d&d players might like it better if it were...
...without offering even a tiny bit of the explanation that you think is lacking.
Fate is gopd... but Savage Worlds does everything better imo. I can run any genre in either, but Savage better explains its own rules far better, which means i dont have confused players.
oh! OF course SHITTY HIGHSCHOOL DRAMA! THIS IS exactly WHAT I PLAY d&d TO EMERSE MYSELF IN
I definitely agree Fate lacks a broad starting point for beginners to get into the system. My biggest successes with the Fate System were running games set in Star Wars using an online fan supplement.
This video convinced me to never try fate. Guess I'll keep looking over the OSR stuff to get my dnd but not dnd fix
so for the one percent of Fate players coming from D&D, it’s not optimal. Got it.
Dnd is like an iphone. Idiots that don't make time to research thinks it's the best because of media but when you really look into it there are far better products
I know it's kind of lame to get a new system just to play the same genre, but when I pick up a new system for the first time, it's easier for me to learn the new mechanics if it's surrounded by flavor I already intuitively "get". I wouldn't have fallen in love with some of my favorite games if I hadn't been able to first go "oh ok. So this is how I make a paladin. Yeah I get it". It's how I learned AGE, PbtA, WyRM, True20, and GURPS. If FATE ever comes out with a world book that's just regular basic bitch fantasy, it may be lame as hell, but for people like me it'll be an invaluable learning tool.
Burning Wheel has the exact same issue. It turns it's narrative structure and character stories into mechanics first and foremost, and it leaves people used to narrative games confused because there's a lot of rules, and "gameists" confused because they're mostly expecting rules for how characters mechanically do things.
The thing about people hacking 5e is that on some level, it's writers seem to expect people to hack it. If you just take every system in the PHB and actually use it as-written, *including* stuff like exhaustion from not getting food, marching orders, trying to figure out how much can fit in a container... 5e is super weird if you do that. It's almost like the designers *know* it's weird and just made a "figure out what to do with this" kinda system. The DMG effectively says "if you don't like something just chuck it", like no system is particularly reliant on any other. Personally, the end result is that I have no idea what 5e is trying to be at it's core. I still think it's obnoxious that more people don't realize they can just look elsewhere for a ruleset that fits what they want better, but the hacks are sort of encouraged.
And then there's the D&D purists who insist that a lot of smaller systems are trying to "kill RPGs" somehow.
I gave you a little hint what is try it to be and always want to be. They want to be gurps but harder, like making you buy a manual to every problem or void.
Want a counterexample of that? Fantasycraft, is a very bloated book, VERY focused like a toolbox like for every type of fantasy game you can think.
Also this mindset let them design some...risky things into the core and make it surprisingly work...like being a drake like a base race. Not dragonborn, not kobold,.not humanoid, full wing, breath weapon drake.
Are you assuming that all ttrpgers are only familiar with D&D? Fate has a lineage and a community along with lots of other narrative-focused ttrpgs.
My biggest complaint with Fate has always been the healing rules.
Great video, as someone who's run a lot of Fate I thought you made some very interesting points. I used to really be into Fate and did a fair amount of videos on it, although TBH I mostly run and play OSR retroclones nowadays.
FATE Corp is GURPS without the need for a degree in rocket science.
I don't disagree with all of your points. I think your take on the current state of GURPS hits the nail on the head tbh. But I don't know where you got the idea that everyone hates Fate Core. It's incredibly popular. It's very very successful. It may be a little difficult for a player who's only played D&D to grasp on their own sure, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone say they hated it.
Oh that's just the clickbait title thumb. It's more that dnd players find it super confusing and evil hat doesn't seem to care.
@@DungeonMasterpiece I guess the clickbait worked. I clicked on. Fair enough. I don't think evil hat cares that much either about the D&D players. But to play devil's advocate, I'm pretty sure your average D&D player isn't their target demographic. There will obviously be a lot of crossover between the two games despite that. I know I personally own content for both and love both. But yeah, I think Evil Hat carved out a very niche for itself. The fact that the game is such a big success for them despite them handing out the PDF as a pay what want deal is a speaks well to that.
The system seems to punish shy and non creative types.
What's a "non-creative type" doing in a role-playing game anyhow? That's like saying football punishes clumsy and scrawny types.
I've played and run numerous different game systems over the past 40+ years. GURPS, Traveler, Elf Quest, Every edition of D&D, Alternity, Star Frontiers, Twilight 2000, Mechwarrior, Hunter: the Reckoning, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Some are too crunchy and some are too generic, But I have to admit I've never played Fate. And After watching this video, I am not interested in it at all. It sounds like a VERY gate-keepy rules system that discourages players who are shy or not naturally creative thinkers, story tellers, or role players. As a DM I find that the more the system rules cover, the less work I have to do. That is what would keep ME from trying this system, or trying to introduce it to a significant portion of my players (of which I have literally dozens). I can think of a couple that might thrive in a FATE game, but the rest would feel very uncomfortable and directionless. There's a certain comfort in clearly defined rules.
Oh Elf Quest, I remember that one! I really liked the comic and was excited to run it, but when I tried to run it players just tried to play it like it was D&D (including wanting to go murder hobo). Though, I think the idea of bringing in baggage from D&D into new games is a common occurrence no matter what system people try, and that includes Fate.
I'm sorry to hear you got the impression that it's "VERY gate-keepy rules", because I don't personally feel that is accurate from my actual play experience. IMO, it is easier to introduce to players coming into RPGs completely new or non-D&D games. It's typically D&D players that struggle the most with Fate, because they hang onto a mental model of wanting inventory lists of items of different stats and rules regarding specific conditions. It's not the lack of levels or classes that D&D players have trouble with, but the lists of situational bonuses and modifiers inherently there.
Also, it really doesn't require any in-depth creative thinking of "naturally creative thinkers" to create Aspects. Aspects could also be far more mundane things like getting "Cover", or making an opponent "Surrounded", or being "Hidden in Shadows". But the nice thing is that if someone DOES want to do something creative, there's a simple generalized mechanic that can push over those shelves, light those books on fire, spot a chandelier to swing on, or find a personal journal in those stacks of books to find a detail of an embarrassing failure that can be used to taunt and humiliate the evil wizard.
Yep. Aspects are everything. And Aspect wording is king.
Taking the "classes, levels and spells" from 5e and shoving them into another system is exactly how Dungeon World felt to me. But I think the plan was to do what Fate has not, in order to introduce new players. I'm so glad I tried other PbtA games, before I gave up on the system.
The only one I've really tinkered with is DW. Which do you recommend I read as a literary exercise? (I prolly won't play it, so it can be off the wall. Also, moftw prolly won't interest me hahha)
@@DungeonMasterpiece
Ironsworn is highly rated. Uncharted Worlds is another. City of Mist is another popular choice.
@@DungeonMasterpiece Spirit of 77, Tremulus and the Sprawl are solid pbta works
@@DungeonMasterpiece The original Apocalypse World is amazing as a work of literature. Lots of evocative language in that book.
Dungeon World feels like the least PBTA of PBTA games. I hacked my own system where HP and damage rolls are present, but feel more like a condition-based Game (like Masks) where losing ,4-5 HP can result in a condition
Truth be told, in 5th edition D&D Int is THE dump stat for everyone but a wizard. There is very little mechanical advantage of having high Int. This is in stark contrast to 3rd, where Int was one of the more important stats.
My biggest gripe with Fate is that I could never get to grips with how the game both wants you to invent things on the fly (We are in a lab, so I'm going to throw the wizard's own potions at him, these thugs had been recently in a gang war with our employer, so I use that to intimidate them) and at the same time mechanically reduces that creativity to simply granting you a +2 bonus to a die roll. Which means that all I am doing is thinking up new excuses to grant myself that stackable bonus.
Fate also lacks any way other than these aspects to mechanically flavor your world. In Warhammer magic is finicky and extremely dangerous to the user, and the rules for spellcasting reinforce that. Even the best archmage is just one mishap away from getting eaten by demons. In World of Darkness, in simplest terms, you need to constantly manage interlinked resources (one of which is directly responsible for the character's power), and if you ever go too much in either direction the game will end for you. Something like this, that is to say a mechanic strongly reinforcing the narrative, is pretty much impossible to replicate in Fate. Its sandbox nature is working against it here.
Perhaps I am wrong there, as I haven't played the system much (and only in the Fate Accelerated version at that). I would be more than happy for a Fate primer when you decide to make it eventually.
I've heard your biggest gripe from others too, but it's not something that bothers me. I actually like that there a generalized universal mechanics for creating bonuses if simply for no other reason as it helps move the game along faster rather than having people trying to figure out the most optimal advantage (Aspect) and having additional subsystems to address certain kinds of mechanical advantages.
That said, there are optional rules in the Toolkit address this very subject called "Scaled Invocations" which distinguishes between "Tenuous invocations", "Relevant invocations", and "Perfect invocations".
You can have a look in the SRD: fate-srd.com/fate-system-toolkit/aspects#scaled-invocation
It's a rule that I've considered using myself. I'm a little curious what you think.
It's a narrative game. Not mechanics heavy. It's one of the best yes and systems. If you want stacking bonus and large number look to another system. The issue most people have with fate is they try to play it like dnd. It's a completely different way of playing. It's comparing apple to oranges. Yes they are both fruit but the similarities end there.
@@groovydecoy366 The scaled invocation sounds pretty good to me and addresses the gripe I had. The re-roll/add/set system will need to be checked in multiple plays, but so far I like it.
THe Fate Core book is one of the most obtuse rule books I have ever read
I'd rather play GURPS over D&D5E any day of the week
I agree with most of the ideas expressed, but...
In step with the concept that "playing RPGs is playing D&D" Baron assumes that "newbs" and "new players" are D&D veterans getting into Fate, which is new to them.
Problem is, the good folks ar Evil Hat probably never counted THIS as their target audience.
Fate Core (the 4th edition of the system) was published in 2013, a time when D&D was the biggest fish of a laughably small pond, not the pop-culture phenomenon it became in the past few years, a change that began in 2014 with the publication of 5th Edition and a MASSIVE and CONTINUED investment in mainstream marketing and advertising (this time done according to real world corporate standards, thanks to Hasbro).
Moreover, the RPC culture of the time was just barely starting to come out from the worst flame war it had seen in decades, with Forge-influenced games fighting for recognition and their right to exist from the larger "traditional" RPG community.
Thus, at least in my opinion, Fate Core was aimed to the niche market of "modern" roleplayers that were already into non-traditional designs, and to the unicorn of non-roleplayers who would come to the Fate mechanics in an unbiased and unburdened way and "just get them".
This is VERY common (not 100% but very, very common) :
- give modern rpgs to traditional roleplayers, and they will stumble on a thousand learned habits, leading them to think that such games can only work with super-expert veteran roleplayers at the table.
- give modern rpgs to anyone else, and they will have no such problems. In fact, most "newbs" intuitively play them much better than D&D-veterans.
I think Evil Hat came from this background and wrote their game with this target in mind.
THAT kind of players don't need a Fate Fantasy book exactly because the tropes and modes of Fantasy are so obvious to most people that, using the tools offered by Fate, they can play a fantasy adventure with their eyes closed.
D&D-players, on the other hand, expect specific signals and structures that, of course, Fate does not provide.
AND while some D&D people might get to Fate to "fix their problems" and seek an alternative fantasy system, a lot (more?) come to Fate to take a break from their usual fantasy adventuring. You can't beat D&D at its own game, so why bother? Cater instead to be something different, a "vacation" from the usual.
NOW, about 10 years after, with RPGs in general being in the spotlight thanks to the huge success of D&D, it could make sense to have both a new, clearer Fate edition (something already done, to a degree, with the Accelerated and especially the recent Condensed editions) and maybe an official Fate Fantasy module... but again, only maybe...
(and the very successful Dresden Files RPG is a great Urban Fantasy entry point).
Fine points, but times have changed. Dnd has had two editions since fate cores publishing.
Where is fate's next edition, which would catch up with the times?
@@DungeonMasterpiece
technically, that would be the 2020 Fate Condensed.
An updated, streamlined, rewritten for clarity version of Core.
I know, I know... again, their marketing feels off :P
They did not push it as a new edition, nor as the "whatever next hot thing" ... which it IS, it really should be the "new standard" for Fate play, the better substitute of the old Core.
But they didn't >_<
No idea if they have anything bigger in store, for the future though. It feels like Fate (Condensed) is where they wanted it to be, and thus are only focusing on supplemental materials or different games altogether (mostly PbtA and FitD).
How can you mention GURPS and not mention how it was replaced by Savage Worlds? Now a Savage Worlds vs Fate comparison would have been real interesting.
You know, for as popular as it is I can't believe I've never sat down and actually read Savage worlds from cover to cover
The dice mechanics +/- make me cringe...
I can understand simplifying systems for more speed and universal use, which is why I prefer cypher.
I also prefer non-leveling systems (Traveller), but Cypher allows characters to still mix well despite one being 1st and another being 4th (out of 6max)
D&D type leveling, new 1st level characters are hard pressed with other 4-5th levelers in the group. Which I prefer the ability to pop in a fresh new face in my sessions if needed.
I really need to learn cypher