They sent them to me! All their RV frame sections!
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- Опубліковано 11 бер 2022
- #rv #towing #trucks
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When I was shopping for a 5th wheel, the first place I looked was at frame thickness and design including stiffeners above the spring perches. Artic Fox was hands down the best frame I saw. They were the heaviest and had the best stiffeners. My experience came from being a structural steel fabricator/welder for many years.
Overtime the frame will keep the RV square and cut down on the wear and tear on everything inside. I think sometimes the manufacturers skimp on the frame to keep the weight down. This video is eye opening.
That’s why I bought an Arctic Fox as well. Four years old and not a single problem. Love it.
@@terryhaynes1596 I wanted the Artic fox, but my wife liked the Grand Design 310gk, so you know who won.......
@@davecamilleri9411 the boss always wins. 🤪. That is a great floor plan though. Arctic Fox doesn’t change. Same floor plans and same colors year after year.
Northwood (maker of Nash, Arctic Fox) and Outdoors RV (ORV) are hands down the beefiest frames. They build their own frames at a company owned facility, rather than outsourcing to LCI.
JD bringing content that ONLY JD could, outstanding once again.
What are you paid for comments or how many videos have you even seen then?
Because Lipert sent you these frame pieces doesn't mean that this is the metal they use !!! Way too many people have cracked frames made by Lipert to be a coincidence !!!
Informative if you're interested in general information about frames. "Frames Exposed," well that is just click bait for someone thinking you were presenting some content of substance, but I found it rather useless for people wondering why there's so much structural failure in RV frames. Seems like a lot of UA-camrs that are in one way or another endorsed by some aspect of RV manufacturing, fail to address the issue of structural failure. It seems no one is responsible for structural frame failure. I've seen videos where the travel trailer was only loaded with two or 300 pounds and the frame failed. A 7000 pound travel trailer with a 2 x 6 x .125 rectangular tube A frame is inadequate for about anything except towing straight down a smooth paved road. I feel like I do have some expertise in making my comment since I was a structural engineer for Boeing Aircraft as well as 20 years military. Anyway, the frame manufacturer claims it's the RV engineer frame designer's problem and they're not responsible for what the frame is used for, the RV manufacturer claims they are not responsible because they didn't make the frame. You know the story; I'm sure you've seen the same videos. LCI even has the audacity to claim that if you drive through a construction zone and hit the slightest bump and the frame breaks, you have voided your warranty by taking it in "off road" conditions. The RV industry's goal is to make it as cheap as possible by making it as light as possible so they can fool people into thinking they can afford the rv and don't need to buy a different pick up truck because they can tow everything with a half ton pickup. This is what I wrote my congressman about and demanded an investigation into the RV industry and that it needs government regulation just like the automotive industry. That was a hard decision for me to make because the last thing I think any of us needs is more government regulation, but the RV industry has been out of control for years. RV manufacturers don't give a darn about anything except shareholder profits and we the people are the ones taking it up the kazoo with poorly designed and cheaply manufactured products that in a lot of cases are unsafe.
Unless they just picked up the trailer it's unlikely they only have 200lbs in it. One can get 50lbs of gear in a backpack. And more to the point, as demonstrated on this channel and others, most people are likely dragging their trailers around not properly balanced and overloaded.
But, regardless of all that there's no doubt Lippert and RV manufacturers are chasing customers that have a limited selection of vehicles capable of towing anything bigger than a teardrop. People want more and nicer stuff and manufacturers push up to the limit and people pay no attention to what the limit actually means.
I don't know how the manufacturer of a chassis isn't responsible when a chassis bends in the same place on multiple models or the shackles break off or the axles bend. There are way too many of these things on the road for there not be regulations on their manufacturing since no one in the industry seems to want to self regulate. But, some of the responsibility lies with people trying to haul around too much trailer with not enough vehicle.
Click bait? Were the frames and their dimensions and weight not "exposed"? I think the problem is, you are specifically looking for me to bash the product and the design of versus present the information. With the sheer number of failures that occur being less than 1% of the frames that are manufactured and used across hundreds of different brands of rvs for the last few decades, I believe doing what you expected me to do would actually be a disservice simply because it would account for such a small fraction of the frames manufactured, and therefore I would only be speaking to very few instances that people may potentially experience but honestly would unlikely ever encounter.
@@BigTruckBigRV Well, while I don't agree with everything "boondock" posted, in a sense he is right. The sturdiness of the frame (the thickness/weight that you use to evaluate the strength) would vary in every case if you're comparing a 36ft unit to a 20ft unit. The issue is really only valid if comparing similar size/weight units even within the fleet offerings of a single manufacturer.
As I've state elsewhere in the comments, the metallurgy of that steel is likely as important, if not more important, than strictly using thickness and corresponding weight increase in the evaluation of strength.
I appreciate your effort, but it's a LONG, LONG way from being a valid engineering analysis of the frame design and construction needed to properly evaluate them.
The quality of steel is a factor in all manufacturing plus the welding quality. Good steel and quality welding holds a lot more than what folks think. To me if a frame cracks or fails on an RV then it’s one of two issues especially if it’s made to spec according the RV industry. This quest to reduce weight can border on being dangerous on the road.
Would be nice to know what models are typically for each frame. Great behind the curtain stuff here….great job.
Good deal. Every house on my street was built in the late 50s-60s. They all have a 42 ft. I-beam running the length of the houses.
Over the years plenty of people have spouted off about the "junk" put out by Lippert. But thanks to your video,, you can see all of the different frame sections available from Lippert. So it begs the question .... was the frame junk, or did the manufacturer use the wrong frame from the start?
The Statics/Dynamics nerd in my mind gets excited seeing things like this. Thank you for putting this video together!
JD this maybe one of the most informative and important informational videos ever produced for RV owners and new buyers. From some one that just had a major frame flex issue on a "top selling" luxury 5th wheel brand, there is NO doubt there are many underbuilt RV frames out there. Knowing what materials and thickness were available from Lippert to the manufacturer is very telling. In my case, not surprisingly, the manufacture went with the thinnest 10" I beam and thinnest 8" for drop frame. More concerning is they also used the thinnest wall box frame material for the front overhang and this is were we had major issues. As we look for a replacement 5th wheel, I will be taking my micrometer meter with me to compare similar length and spec'5th wheels frame thicknesses. Again, thank you and Lippert for doing this. It's time this white elephant in the industry finally gets addressed so RV buyers can have upfront awareness of how the foundation of their RV investment compares to others.
By far, one of the BEST informative video you have done!!!
JD your frame video and Lippert plant tours are very informative. Maybe write on the frame sections with a white marker for the flange, web, and mass sizes on each to easily compare them all. Look forward to more rv plant and unit walkthroughs.
J, d could you tell us what frames go with what brand trailers like? Grand Designs 30 foot VS the lower end trailers. Thanks, great information.
If I took a shot every time you said "RV" in the first minute I wouldn't even be able to finish watching the video! ;) love your content!
What a significant amount of good information. Thanks for sharing this with us. Pretty cool info.
You could also cross reference the rv frame material to the utility trailer that they are sitting on. And don't forget the dump trailer right next to you.
TY FOR SHARING WITH US
Really solid episode! Just steel my view and like! Seriously, please keep doing all the things you are doing, the fresh content from the new space you guys have, plus things like this are refreshing and entertaining to watch!
JD - One interesting point to clarify is how the RV manufacturer coordinates with the frame manufacturer to build a frame for a specific floorplan. I think many people belive the RV manufacturer is the one who dictate frame design. When in fact if you go to Lippert's website there is a manual which has a lot of information on frame design criteria they use on frame design. Very interesting information.
You point of unnecessarily adding structure that is not need. But, that seems to be what many people want not realizing you can not have both and still be able to put stuff in without have a tow vehicle the size of a Peterbuilt truck.
And the BAL manufactured frame on my 21 ft Bigfoot (23ft ball to bumper) is made from 2x5 inch rectangular tubing with .25" (¼ inch wall thickness), both tongue sections and main frame rails. It has a GVWR of 7500 lbs.
The rectangular tubing is made from long flat strips that are run through a machine that folds the metal to the tubing shape and welds the seam, so any thickness variation in the metal from top to sides is insignificant and caused by stretching of the metal in the forming process. Also, You have to be careful on the tubing to not accidentally measure at the welded seam.
No wonder rv trailer frames fail these days! Those sections are thinner than water!
Weight is a concern as is strength. Lot of engineering goes into proper cuts, lengths, bracing, gussets, weld type, material and placement of welds.
Indiana isn’t the only location of a Lippert Frame factory. Not sure if you knew this, but LCI also builds frames at a plant next door to the Keystone factory in Pendleton, OR.
I have a 1982 coachman 22ft travel travel and it had a 8" boxed frame for the main rails and tounge. It has 4inch C channel for the cross members. After 40 years the frame is rock solid. It's over built for sure but it's a great peice of mind.
Thank you for doing this video. Very informative.
Interesting video JD. Makes me want to crawl under my RV and see what’s there. As it is currently 31 degrees F outside right now, I believe I’ll wait 😀 Thanks for sharing.
Very informative! I can now see why going whole hog is not always as great an idea as it seems it should be! Thanks for the great video and looking forward to the answers you get from Lippert.
Very cool, great information. Thanks Alan 😎
That was really interesting. For Lippert, thanks for sharing that with us via JD.
Frame manufacturers strive to meet the minimum requirements. Never build stronger than the warranty.
Good Morning My Good Bro Big Truck & Big RVs
Great Approach , well explained, thank you
Very informative info jd, Ty sir
Interesting! Thanks
Thank you - very interesting.
the difference in the thicker tube type frame for 100' will only be 244#. I would gladly sacrifice that for the added strength.
Should Lippert not be able to give you the specs for the different complete trailer weights they build and offer to the manufacturers. I assume they would have a list of standard builds.
Instant classic.
Thanks jd
Your the best
Great info on how frames are made, I had no idea that the height of the frame wasn't the only measurement, I just assumed they all had the same thickness. Makes sense though to save weight on some lighter rigs, while beefing up when needed for heavier rigs. As much as I'm a red blooded American, would have been easier to talk about the thickness in millimeters instead of fractions of an inch!
Heck yeah JD, that's some great and helpful info. Thank you sir 👍
Also buddy, I know this is off topic, but have you ever considered getting any RC Crawlers? Seems like you could make some great videos for the channel with them. Also, you could build a scale F450 identical to yours... That would be sweet!
Wow! Very interesting, good content!!
Good to know awesome video
Providing frame members to match engineering requirements is one thing.
Providing properly welded frame members to ensure a safe frame is obviously something that Lippert and some OEMs can't seem to provide as the baseline standard, and that's a problem.
Due to all the RV "Frame Flex" videos the issue is how good the welds are, plus R&D. You can have the right sized frame, and have poor welds, the frame will break. If the steel is sub-par then you will have excessive frame flex leading to failure. Lastly is R&D. During this testing an RV is subjected to a lifetime of flex, and inspected for weak areas that need attention. Just adding heavier steel is not the answer. The answer is 'where' to add addition bracing to handle the loads expected.
In conclusion, I believe the RV & Frame manufactures need to hire 3rd party structural failure analysis company to identify how a frame failed, and take suggested solution to heart, and employ them on the newest designs. Plus offering a kit to certified welding shops that can properly install them.
What you can't see is the metallurgy of the steel. That's as important, if not more so, than the thickness in determing it's ability to resist unwanted flex.
9/64th or 3/16 50KPI
The only true measure of a frame strength is the RBM rating. Means resisting bending moment. It is a calculation of frame height x width X tensile strength of the steel.
I’m sure the rv manufacturers that design their own frames specify the size of the material and there are manufacturers that have LCI design their frames
Lighter material can be made/braced to be very strong: it will flex more though. Stay safe
The industry standard in describing an I-Beam are two numbers. IF someone tells you the beam is a W12x32, that means the beam is 12" wide and it is 32 pounds per linear foot. This is how we should be looking at this.
I’ve talked to Lippert about triple towing and they say that they do make frames rated to tow up to 3500 lbs. How can I identify which mags. Have towable frames? Thanks, great channel!
Thank you
Very good video.
Those boxes are built better than a modern travel trailer. Lol.
Fascinating! More toy haulers please. XLR /KZ
looking at the construction of these they are industry standard design with good quality - the problem is when the trailer is over loading the specs
Very interesting. So how do I determine what what was used for my 2020 keystone Montana 3781RL ?
JD good video. Did they say what type of steel was used to make these frame rails? (Hopefully, all are HSLAS type of Hot Roll Steel).
I think that some people don’t understand the dramatic difference in weight one beam is from another. An additional .1” seems small, but added up over the length of a trailer, and it’s hundreds if not thousands of pounds.
Yep
Those cross sections only hold the Design load IF they are Not Twisted by off axis loads that are not reacted to another member...
Unless they are fools they will sell you want you want.... Cool video!
I found the the weight in one foot lengths most interesting. Over 25 or 30ft that can be significant weight.
Would also like to see some welds and are the welds inspected.
Thanks for the video! Any chance you could share the width of the flanges? Mine has a 10" frame with an 8" drop and with only 2 options should be easy to identify by simply measuring the flange as I don't have a caliper.
One flange is about 2.5" the other is nearly 4"
@@BigTruckBigRV Wow! Our RV is in storage so I can't check but I'm pretty confident GD isn't didn't go with the bigger one on their Imagine line. Thanks for checking JD.
Great video!
Kudos to Lippert for providing the samples!
Ofton wondered why USA frames were not galvanised against most UK frames are , ok we have a lot of bad weather but looking at those frame sections they are very lightwieght so i doubt they could stand up to galvanising brcause the process would warp most of those sections. Good vidio of the basics of frames you want an everyday frame you takes your choice , you want a long lasting frame then its pricy plus a lot heavier . Moral of this story when out shopping for RVs take your calipers with you ?
Did by chance did Lippert provide you the WF beam specs and sizes as with the tube steel or structural tube sizing.. and we're are these samples per America sizing.. there are many many Beam charts out there.. all should the same or similar. Which sizing chart/specifications does Lippert use.. would be nice to know
I realize cost would be higher, but surprised for weight more frames aren't aluminum.
Very informative JD. Do you have to return those to Lippert or do plan to do something with these samples?
Possibly target practice.
In this video nothing was said about the alloy of steel they sent you . Some alloys are made to withstand heavy loads and stress . Just showing a piece of steel says nothing . A beam made from 4130 Chrome molly steel will weigh the same as the low grade steel they sent you but will be so much stronger . They could use a high grade steel where these failures are happening regularly and the weight would be the same but so much stronger with less or no failures . But they dont . They havent published the grade or alloy. The funny thing is the frame wouldnt weigh any more for a stronger frame and the extra cot would be passed on to the customer .
Hi JD, is the metal these items are made of standard metal thickness or are they special order and when you hear about frame/ weld failure what contributes to the failure I figure it’s stress but where is the stress typical focus point that would facilitate a failure? To repair a failure does the repair incorporate a thicker metal piece or do they use the same as the original configuration? Nice demo which something we would never see. 😊👍👍👍
Great question, I guess to answer that question it would really depend how and where the failure occurred and what the potential causes are. I suppose in some cases the wrong material could have been used during a production as part of human error. In many cases it's probably due to some type of torsional flex that occurred during travel or some type of extreme maneuver that over stressed a weld. It also could have been caused by a poor weld, not enough welds or misplaced supports based on dynamic weight during travel. I bet that some failures can even occurred due to a new floor plan design that places stress in areas otherwise not encountered.
Generally if I needed to weld in a doubler, fishplate, or gusset I wouldn’t want to go much thicker than the parent material to avoid creating a stress focal point that could have cracks propagate from the repair. Sometimes curves on a doubler, or short sections of weld (as opposed to a continual weld) might be chosen to minimize focusing flexing/stress. Welding tends to pull things together in the direction of the weld, like lacing up a boot, so choosing how to tack up and the direction and order of welds matter when it comes to stress, and avoiding warping and distorting…
I would be curious to see the differences between these Lippert frames and ones from like Northwood (arctic fox) who make their own frames.
I don't think he has ever mentioned Northwood products in any of his videos. I emailed him years ago to review some Northwood products but it was crickets.
New Horizons also build their own frames . Very impressive build , worth doing the factory tour if your in the market
I’d be curious as well.
In my opinion those frames could be an extra quarter to half inch thicker now that I’m seeing how thin the frames are I’m definitely rethinking getting a travel trailer I can now see why people are having frame issues. It’s like they are using the bare minimum in steel to produce these.
That would make even a short RV possibly weight up to 5k more. Also, it's nowhere near the bare minimum steel thickness, not by a long shot. Brother, you really need to have a basic understanding of engineering physics as well as materials to weigh in on this topic from a design perspective. I'm not bashing you, I'm just saying it's like me telling a surgeon than his tools aren't built the right way for his application
Hello, my comment is for everybody answer! Tell me what you think. Well I have a Forest River Sandpiper 2017 381RBOK, I took some mesurements for the upper deck frame to see how much flex I got. I came out with 1/4'' flex when hitch to the truck. What do you think ?
In 2001 I bought my first fifth wheel. In 2005 I bought a brand new carriage cameo 35 foot. And 2016 after having put 80,000 miles on the rig I started looking for another rig. I knew I would not buy anything with an I-beam frame. The frame builders know nothing about welding or stress risers. Instead of having the slides atop the frame like the carriage and lifestyles and for other type older Riggs with huge box tube frames,they decided to cut holes in the frame and leave square corners patched with small pieces of steel so you could not see it. So your slide arms would go through the frame and they had a lot of problems with cracking at the square corners where the slide arms went through. The older Mobile Suits also used a box tube frame. The current mobile suites uses a combination of I-beam and box tube under the axles I have no idea how that is connected.
So, in 2016 I bought a 39 foot 2008 Carriage, Carriage. GVW 18860. Weighs in at 20,300 loaded, pulled with a class 6 truck. 34,600 going down the road. This rig has a huge box tube frame like all the carriages lifestyles up until 2016 Tetons, travel Supremes, Excels, and Mountain Airs. My rig has been completely redone inside and out and I was still 50% cheaper than what it would’ve cost to buy something like a mobile suites of this size and weight. Has Big Foot leveling system that will lift the rig off the ground all day independent suspension disc brakes MorRyde pin box H rated tires. The full body paint was redone by Pro Custom in Elkhart Indiana. The new roof was done by RV Roof.com in Green Cove Springs Fl.
So good video, see you guys on the big road. Will be departing The Great Outdoors in Titusville Florida April 1 headed west and then north, northeast. I average about 10,000 miles a year.
The Space Coast Traveler said that.
👍👍
We love to see a collaboration with a hydraulic press UA-cam channel see how much pressure to crush the frame segments
I would need to either travel to or ship them to Pakistan then. Might be expensive
@@BigTruckBigRV you have connections. have to admit it would be a popular video. Love your channel
👍
You must be hitting some cutting debris on those box frames because they should all be the same thickness as shown by the last one you did where the top section was thinner than the sides which was not the norm for the other two. Hard to believe the manufacture would make a 1/64 difference on purpose.
Some RVs (e.g. Lance trailer) use a C-beam ...
They probably didn’t send the paper thin one that they make for grand design fifth wheels.
My question to Lipert is what size steel frame equals what gross weight the trailer is. Ex. 12 in @ 3/16 = 14000 lb gvwr?
Alot more engineering goes into than just GVWR. Placement of weight, slides, storage, suspension, and many other factors must be built in.
Just looking for an average use of the steel for the frame type.
How about allumminum beams
When you look under an RV at its frame and axle mounts its so much lighter that anyone's gooseneck equipment trailer. You can overload most equipment trailers and beat on them for years and never have problems but an RV loaded up just under its max barely has enough steel in them to do the job! I would rather the manufactures increase the empty weight and run heavier frames so this will become a non issue! If it means you will always need a 1 ton or more to tow with so be it. I am always using a class 8 truck so I don't care about weight until it approaches 50K.
As usual petty cool, or should I say informative. But of course, I own a DRV 45-foot, Full House 5th wheel. So, does it cover my RV? Triple stack tube construction. Very heavy RV, that's not to say that I did not enjoy. The video always. Find your videos informative and you're right, I'm surprised. LCI sent you everything they did. Actually, not surprised. they are a very cooperative company to work with from my experience of things I've had to call them for and work with them on in the past.
Thickness is fine but alloy is just as important. Is it domestic steel or foreign also plays into it.
Glad you made this comment. I think people would be very surprised to find out that Lippert claims all the frame steel they use is made in the USA.
This is good information, and I get the argument that Lippert builds the frame to manufacturer specs. But how is someone supposed to make an informed decision if they know they will be using the trailer full-time, or maybe they plan to tow in areas with rougher roads? The industry has to figure this out and come up with some standards. Also, consumers may need to adjust their expectations around cost and tow vehicles. Maybe this isn't as big an issue as it seems, but the perception is that it is a big problem. The industry will suffer soon if something reasonable can't be worked out.
Could you ask for the same samples from the BAL NXG frame ?
I will ask BAL for their frame sections as well
Most of that steel is sold pounds per foot such as 17 lbs per foot meaning 1 foot weighs 17 pounds
I’m sure your delivery driver didn’t like you that day😂🤣
I had to pick it up from UPS lol
I beam being taller does not reduce flex, it actually adds to it. I beams are identified by height and weight per foot.
IE W8X12
8” tall, 12 pounds per foot.
All of the strength is in the web of beam, the height is for allowing clearance as needed. The taller, the more the web can bend when making turns and the forces incurred of the tires trying to go straight and applying torque sideways on the I beam.
The dumbest thing they do on the frame is above the hanger they weld a plate at a 45 degree angle to the web and flange. They do this to prevent the flange from flexing during travel and turns. Alls they are doing is moving the flex zone up about 2” onto the web.
The ideal way would be to weld a vertical stiffener to the web from top to bottom flange eliminating any flexing in the web of the beam above each hanger. Preferably on both sides.
I have 2021 Cougar and the back hanger is already starting to bend sideways.
Going to straighten back up weld stiffener’s to the beams and weld a 4” angle cut to fit inside the hangers and weld it to the hanger and bottom of I beam to reduce flex in the hanger.
Then my overkill of welding a 2” square tube on the inside of the center hangers side to side and then a 2X2 angle from front hanger to rear hanger on a diagonal both ways and weld everything together. This will apply even torque across all three hangers when turning reducing stress and eliminating fatigue on the hangers and I beam.
Overkill but a solid peace of mind.
When I talk about flex reduction, I am referring to the reduction across the length of the RV not the width or the flex from side bending forces on the web.
@@BigTruckBigRV Have Lippert send you the torsional properties of American standard beams, beam diagrams and formulas for various static loading conditions and beams, American standard properties for designing. all which is found in the Bethlehem manual of steel construction. This information will give you all the sizes, strength in KIPS, allowable deflection in length, ETC. Showing how everything is calculated.
Silly me, I thought he would have a ton of box frames laying out on the property.
YOU SHOULD HAVE HIT THEM ALL THE SOUND TELLS WHAT STEEL IS JUNK
I believe New Horizons builds their frames according to the floor plan you choose and how it’s built out . Also I think they build for full timing versus the occasional travel . If you get a chance it’s worth doing the factory tour . When you order your rig you can see it being built starting with the frame and get progress photos if you can’t go see build in person.
It would be nice to know who is responsible for the engineering because of all the problems with frames breaking, the frame manufacturer or the RV manufacturer, since both blame the other.
Those who are fortunate enough to have a warranty are still out a lot of time and money for repairs, but those who are the second owners without a warranty should start a class action lawsuit.
FYI, here in the US we are so consumed with GVWs and not exceeding those ratings, but in other countries, at least on their dumptrucks, they haul twiced the material on their trucks with the same and sometimes less amount of axles, sometimes on the same US trucks since when our trucks are what we consider wore out they buy them up, I know since they bought mine.
The difference per foot isn't significant. If you take an 8lb vs 10lb per foot, that's only a few hundred to maybe 1,000 lb difference. Of course that may bump you up to beefier axles and suspension, but I'd pay extra to know my trailer wasn't going to fall apart.
This didn't age well with all the frames breaking for so many manufacturers that use lippert. Maybe an update on this?
Your scale was not starting at zero. You need to "tare" between each piece.
Quality and grade of the steel is more important...
Value of this video would have been far better if we knew which manufacturer was using which frame section.