Setting A Tool Post Grinder (The MrCrispin Way)
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2022
- Instagram: mr_crispin
In this video I demonstrate the setting of a Dumore Number 44 Tool Post Grinder. The lathe it is being set on is a Harrison 190 which I overhauled in the two part series 'Reviving a Lathe'.
The work shown in this video makes up the beginning stages of a headstock tooling overhaul.
Reading the title, I thought Christ this will be an over complicated nightmare. Satisfyingly Mr C. Never disappoints.
Glad you had faith in me! LoL!
Good evening, Mr. Crispin, and congratulations on 10 years of service to RR. The next 10 years will go faster, so be sure to fasten your seat belt. Setting that tool post grinder is quite an undertaking. I very much appreciated your thinking involved in solving the various situations that arose. I am also very much looking forward to seeing the results when the grinding begins. Thank you for another excellent tutorial and greetings from Germany.
Thanks
Just suspend the grinder shaft between centers between tail stock and chuck then adj the mount bolt housing (small sqare head bolt allows the stud sleeve to slide up and down) so that it sets securely on the compound tool post mount and tighten the mount nut . That sets tool height and 0 angle to the chuck at same time. This is all assuming that your tail stock is centered with your chuck(if not you have bigger issues any way) Clear as mud? lol Great video i have 3 of those grinders. One still in the original fold up metal storage box. Very handy!
@@MrCrispinEnterprises
You are amazing. I do not have machines that are that precise. A G0602 lathe and a Harbor Freight mill but I enjoy watching someone to get work done at perfection. I truly am amazed. Thank you for your time and passing on your years of hard nocks of knowledge. I am an old man from Kentucky USA and I thank you. God Bless and again I thank you.
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As ever, thank you for a clear and detailed run through of a set up that is not immediately obvious. Full of useful takeaways.
Congrats on your 10 years at RR! I was at RR too back in the day but I don't fit well in a giant corp. I now work with smaller aerospace companies as clients but always have a soft spot for RR.
Skills, Techniques and humour. Another engrossing video Mr Crispin.
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I grew up on Monty Python. Every time you go to a musical interlude, that is where my mind goes. Love it.
Absolutely superb. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Particularly liked the geometry for setting the compound over at an angle utilising the tailstock barrel as a reference.
Well done and I look forward to the rest of the series.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, I’m in the process of making the Hemingway kit tpg and this has helped in the formulation of spacers to fit my lathe, and also for the set up
Thanks for the detailed video. I was just given a Dumore toolpost grinder and was thinking about posting a video also. Be that as it may, very nice work and very educational. Also congrats on your 10 year anniversary. I’ve been a mechanical engineer for 30 years and there is still something new to learn every day.
Thanks for the explanation of the errors on an untramed mill (and lathe). First time Ive seen a lathe tramed. All very informative and interesting. All the best.
Happy Anniversary, Mr. Crispin! I greatly enjoyed watching your method and listening to the explanations. Looking forward to the next hat landing!
Well done on the ten years, just keep learning until retirement and keep learning. Great video, fascinating, love em.
Top notch work as always Mr. Crispin!👍
You are an international treasure. Thank you for sharing your adventures and wisdom.
High praise!
Great demonstration. Thanks for bringing us along.
Very interesting Mr Crispin , thank you for showing the video.
I did find it interesting Always good to see your straight forward methodology.
Congratulations, Mr Crispin, on your decade of service to Rolls Royce !!
Thanks for sharing 👍 Congrats on 10 years!
Well done Crispin. Again, thoroughly enjoyed. To the King and the Craft.
You have a talent for explaining things clearly, unlike myself. Even though I understand, I seem to ramble in circles trying to make my points. Well done!
Very informative video, Mr. Crispin, thank you very much. Loved it. Reading the comments here was as also very interesting.
Yes the comments have been very good
Brilliant! Very interesting and a job well done! And happy anniversary!
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Congratulations on your 10 years service at rolls Royce and well done for a well explained video on setting up a tool post grinder.
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Congratulations on a decade with Rolls Royce and thank you for a great video. Like shooting with black powder as well but wasn’t invited to join the salute! Thanks again for being a great teacher.
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Very good Mr. Crispin, I have a Dumore Model 11 and had no idea how to set it up. Now I have a better understanding. Thank You, Sir. ... And congratulations on your 10-year anniversary at Rolls-Royce.
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Very interesting as usual Mr Crispin.👍👍
That grinder looks to be of a very good quality. A great asset for the lathe.
Regards.
Steve.
Glad the Dumore meets your requirements. Looking forward to see it running. Regards from Australia.
Thanks Dave
Steve Osborne
I have over 16,000 hours in the air propelled by Rolls Royce Conway, RB211 and V2500 engines - only one serious failure in 35 years. This speaks volumes for the quality of the products and calibre of the engineers they train. Great video and much respect.
Thanks
Congratulations on 10 years and another great video again very interesting thanks for sharing 🦘👍
I have been enlightened!
Thank you Mr. C 😊
Nice work getting it aligned
Well done on the setup and on the video. I learned a thing or two at least. Although, I now have tool post grinder envy. Congrats on the decade at Rolls Royce.
Wonderful stuff Mr C
Nice work Sir. You and Joe Pie provide a great source for tips and tricks. Thank you.
Interesting video. Thanks! Waiting looking forward to the next one.
I have no idea why I watch all of these, I don't have a workshop let alone any machines, but I do and thoroughly enjoy them.
Thanks, it's surprising how many people say that.
Hola Mr. Crispin. Condolences for you and all UK. To You, congratulations for your contribution of 10 years to the excellence of RR. On your shop I have learned that all you said and did was and is "true" ;). Thank you.
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Happy 10 year anniversary Mr C. one of many decades I hope for you in engineering either at RR or elsewhere. A Dumore 44? Very nice sir.
Excellent Mr. C.
Thank you for the info. I have the same grinder spindle. Very nice piece of kit.
Great work Mr C and congratulations on ten years at Rolls Royce 🎉🎂👍
Thanks for sharing and looking forward to the next video
Well explained and worked out Crispin, and congratulations on your work anniversary, only another 15yrs to go before you get a pen lol. Cheers, Jon
Thank you Mr. Crispin, exs=cekkent depiction of a tool post grinder, enjoyed!
Congratulations on your 10 years of service...and your attainment of "intermediate" level. I spent 20 + years in the trade (before a career change) and only reached a spectacularly "average" level.
Your video is indeed technical but I did pick up a few things...1. Your tie is neatly rolled up in your toolbox...2. Your brother's toothbrush has made an appearance again.
The suspense was agonising in checking the final centre height, where I thought it would certainly need to be readjusted. I also eagerly await the day when your hat finally misses it's mark.
ps. Showing the finished product at the beginning of the video makes it more easily understood.
Well done sir.
Thanks. Yes my hat is looking in good shape considering the number of times it has landed in the swarf tray!
wow ,, i really must get out more often. cheers great vid.
Hello Mr. Crispen,
A very interesting video... lots in really valuable information, thank you.
Take care.
Paul,,
Lovely stuff !! I’ve just got a nice dumore tool post grinder for my rivett lathe
Excellent! Thanks for sharing.
As usual brilliant
at 21:18, you could also use the 'centre support' and squeeze the fingers onto the spindle cartridge caseing, the polished part, ensuring that the support is square, using the carrage, and also that the fingers are extended equally, ensuring concentricity;
another way is to mount two dead centres, in tail and head stock, and offer the 60deg. hole of the grinding spindle up to this ( via the carrage motion), and then slide the tailstock up to this, therefore clamping the spindle, as if it was an arbor for turning between centres, and if you loosten the stem clamp, you can level this at the same time (both axis at once); easy setup jig, no fus, using simple tools already at the lathe station.
Very clever.
I am a new viewer to your UA-cam channel and l have found your videos to be very interesting, informative and inspiring to watch. I have a very small workshop that at present is not up and running yet due to various reasons, correct power supply to the machines being the most problematic one at the moment. l will in the meantime be watching your videos and l sure they will drive on to finishing the repairs necessary to allow me to use them, l am amazed at your level of knowledge and ability to explain the topic areas you cover in the videos. Regards Gary
Many thanks and glad to have you watching
my research into tool post grinders so far is watching you.
😅
congratulations Mr Crispen on your tenure, thats absolutely tops!
could you tell us a little about what its like working there?
Very nice and interesting!
Thanks
fantastic video - thank you!
You make my day.
Good day Mr Crispin!
I have worked on making Rolls Royce Gem engines part here in Denmark. Interesting work and drawings, it was all certificate work. Kongsberg Våben in Norway do a lot of RR work as well; I work there for a time.
Interesting!
A decade to become an "Intermediate", 😁😃🥴. Well done on ten years service 👏.
At least your apprenticeship wasn't as long as Prince Charles, God bless the Queen, long live the King.
Excellent demonstration of perpendicularty, hope you allowed for both spindle and DTI droop (only joking), it's surprising how many expect a full sized plunger clock/indicator mounted on a fine adjustment arm not to drop due to the influence of gravity 😳. Plunger clock first on rigid setup, then lever clock to finalise.
Very nice addition to the shop.
Thanks for sharing and best regards from the Black Country UK 🇬🇧.
John.
Hm... Just a thought... A particular German machinist had some vids on how rotating an indicator stand in a manner affected by gravity should be a terrifying event! Much deflection due to the thing not being nearly as stiff as we would like to imagine.. So measuring the top and bottom of the plane with an indicator spinning around the spindle could be considered... inconclusive, at best!
Was that a multi joint flexible type? If it was then I agree. This indicator is held on a single steel bar less than 4" long.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises Ah, yes -- most of the worst of it was those well-known multi-joint single-clamping-knob things. I agree with your instincts about the short bar. Were it me, I would probably check it anyway, on a cold winter's day when there was nothing else to do... :) Cheers! Always love your vids.
It's definitely an interesting topic. I'll have a think
Gravity is working on your DTI/Clock when measuring in the vertical orientation. It is certainly possible and likely that there are errors in the spindle orientation, but you are not really measuring them in that setup in the vertical direction. Try taking your DTI and using a magnetic base on a flat steel plate, set for zero with the tip touching the plate. Then lift the whole plate and DTI and turn it upside down and check reading--it will not be zero no matter how rigidly you attach the DTI. With most DTI's you will see a couple of thou of gravity induced change, but with higher quality DTI's the error is larger since the measuring force is less. My Interapid 0.0005 indicator reads 0.0095 low when upside down in this test. People are sometimes amazed by this but it is a fact that you can check for yourself. It is better to measure the top of spindle relative to the ways by running an indicator over the top of the spindle (yes it is small) and make sure it is parallel to the ways. Your left/right measurement with the clock is OK because the errors due to gravity cancel out. Congrats on 10 years--that is a big achievement!
Interesting thoughts . I can see that being more of an issue if the stylus was strait out rather than in the true to face position. I'll do some testing.
I have done that demo with people who have been machining for decades. And then watch them try to count the jobs where this would explain the problems they had.
Yes I have encountered that problem when aligning lathe tail stocks in the vertical direction. Also had the problem when using an Indi-Cal tool with a DTI bore tool which gave different readings top to bottom vs bottom to top. The DTI was a Tesa .0001. The Indi-Cal setup is pretty rigid and I think some of the variation might come from the DTI internals itself which I verified by turning it over without being in a bore and seeing the variation. I thought the DTI might be damaged in some way but it is fine otherwise. I just switched to other bore measuring tools.
Useful video this as I need to set my Duplex toolpost grinder up, unfortunately my lathe does not have a topslide with a T slot so extensive re working is required to use it with anything else other than the 4 way toolpost.
Hello Mr Crispim!
Followed your instructions, set’d up the toolpost grinder, dressed both outside and cup wheels (I have two flanges), now I’m getting crosshatched faces!
However, I took a cheap old drill press cross-vice, dismounted and tried to surface grind the ways. Beautiful cross-hatch pattern, but surface turned out to be convex. Suspecting that it may be because of poor fixing to the chuck, as I ran a long bolt through the lathe spindle, a nut on the back and the chuck was running without jaws, just as a reference surface. This may have caused the edges to bow up from the center bolt pressure, thus convex. I’ll retry it using the four jaw chuck, which I hope that can somehow hold the drill vice. Second guess is that my cross slide is not running smooth because of a bent gib. I need to fix it and I keep promising that I’ll do it tomorrow.
Thanks for your videos!
Went on to check the lathe cross slide and it's gib. Yes, it is bent. I de-bent as much as I could, now it's on the 0.05mm feeler gauge realm, so maybe that will be made flat by scraping. I re-scraped the cross slide table to a horizontal co-planar to the top, it was good, but already showed some wear after 3 years I'm using it since I scraped it flat at first.
I noticed that the gib is a little undersized on the vertical plane: it stands shy about 0.3mm (1/80") of the cross table reference horizontal surface. In my understanding/readings, I think this has to be flush. Will glue with rubberized loctite a brass shim strip, then machine to size.
I also checked the lathe carriage cross slide dovetails: they are not perpendicular, they start at thinnest, then go up 13 microns (0.013mm), up to 35 microns, then back to some 28 microns (1 thou). No way to know if this is angle'ing left, right or both. I can only tell they are not parallel enough. Since I know my chinese 1000x320 lathe is somewhat unperfect, I'm considering putting the cross table on the Schaublin milling machine, then indicating it's outer side, then skimming the parallel side dovetail (it's 60 degrees). Then I can rest assured that one side is good enough, than do the scraping on the carriage side of this dovetail. Then re-measuring it's width, I'll be probably going get readings on the tapered gib side only, since the fixed side should be fine now. Wow, that's a lot of work, that hopefully will give me better results.
Since my lathe was not that far off when I did the face grinding, I'm guessing the conical shape I ground has to be caused either by the ends flexing up because of the center bolt single point of pressure, or maybe the toolpost grinder can have rotated a bit by the cutting forces, but I should have checked for that before dismounting it from the lathe.
The drill press vise I gave a hand scrape treatment. It's really low quality cast iron, much more difficult to scrape than the lathe cross table. The bolts that press the parallel gibs were at different heights and some of them have poked holes on the flattened surfaces, which I'll plug fill with brass (or maybe cast iron), then level.
I am getting much better at scraping, reaching a better number of contact points per inch and a much more constant scraping pattern. Carbide blade sharpness is the (king) way to go! I think I might have scraped some 5 square feet (about half square meter).
thanks for sharing!
Excellent walkthrough, I really enjoy the detailed explanation of the topic.
It's probably my own inadequacies and inexperience shining through, but I honestly do not understand why the "tramming" of the grinder spindle is necessary.
The provided explanation, and reference to the mill situation is fully understandable. It makes perfect sense when talking about a milling cutter.
However there is one step done to the grinding wheel that is not done on a milling cutter. Namely dressing the wheel.
Asuming that dressing could be done to the sides and bottom of a milling cutter it would cut perfectly in all axis, regardless of spindle axis angle offset.
As I understand it dressing the grinding wheel, aligns the cutting face to the desired angle of the top slide. Given of cause that the topsslide is used wile dressing the wheel.
In this case, where the topslide angle is 7.125 degrees, and the grinding spindle is "trammed", the angle on the grind wheel would be the same.
Assuming that the topslide is used to dress the wheel. As we want to grind the topslide angle on something. As I see the situation, if the grinder isn't "trammed to the lathe axies as you describe, the only difference would be that the grinding wheel would not be dressed to exactly the same angle as the topslide, but something slightly off.
Regardless of the grinders spindle being "trammed" or not, the dressed grinding stone should always present the complete dressed face to the work at the exact angle the topslide is set at.
Please correct me, as I presume I'm mistaken due to my lack of experience and knowledge.
Top marks, you clearly understand the geometry. What you may not know is that I am planning to grind with the face of the wheel as well as the periphery.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises ahhh that is the missing piece of information i did not catch. Then the alignment makes perfect sense. When using my toolpost grinder I have only used the side of the wheel, therefore never had the need for "tramming" the grinder. I'. look forward to what comes up in the next video.
Not the face I was expecting for that voice. You sir, are an anachronism. You need a time machine. Great video... and good on you for the careful setup.
Another brother of the holy black. What was the tool of choice for the ceremonial shooting?
What brand/model of height gauge is that?
Thank you for taking the time to explain everything in your videos. It is always a welcome addition to my viewing pleasure!
Thats a Mitutoyo that I got on ebay a few years back.
thats a fine sine plate!
feed the lil kipper a steady diet of old jo blocks and itll be full grown in no time. ;)
👍 good stuff!
I think you can get the Dumore manuals online. I have them if not.
Congrats on your 10 years, barely seems any time since you were leaving us at York to start your apprenticeship, perhaps they will let you do some interesting stuff now ;)
I was going to leave a comment about the possible droop of the verdict in the vertical plane but you seem to have already had a number of comments and responded accordingly. I first came across this problem in a Richard King scraping class Video where he had a DTI arrangement mounted on a flat plane and tipped the whole arrangement upside down and there was a considerable movement of the needle. Unfortunately it was some time ago and I cannot remember whose channel it was on, and I think it was a (High Quality) multi-arm holder at a distance relatively larger then your arrangement, but when you start to make high resolution measurements even gravity can be your enemy.
Thanks Melvyn. I think I'm going to have to cover this topic of indicator droop in another video.
Congratulations on your ten year milestone. Today am also marking ten years, but mine is in retirement.
When using a tool post grinder, I was taught to aligned the spindle parallel to the angle of travel so that the full face of stone is in contact with the work, not just the edge. Am I wrong or is more to be revealed?
More is to be revealed!
Can you tell us about the crazy complicated and prescise 5 axis machine tools of the modern world?
Very absorbing as usual. I had to watch twice the section on surface grinding the base plate to get the required angle. I’m still not 100%. Did you grind a 0.007” wedge or was there more sophisticated trigonometry involved? Did I hear something about getting the ‘rung’. Please forgive me but if you have time I’d be most interested.
Yes I think you've got it. There's no trig it's just a case of making it sit on the surface grinder at the reverse of what I measured on the lathe. I referred to the angular error as the 'run'
just noticed in the video where you were using a sine chuck on the surface grinder, not to nit pick but its a pretty good idea to have the grinding wheel pushing the work towards the fence . If the work were to slip at all with fence on the wrong side it would form a wedge action with he work sliding up the chuck adding a lot of unnecessary excitement. some ejected parts will never be found again possible entering some inter-dimensional doorway.
Thanks for the tip
Sir i have question related to piston ring making.
What will be the clearance must need to be in between piston cylinder diameter and ring diameter to move it perfectly and leak proof.
For hydraulic cylinder piston with metallic rings.
idk anything about anything but is cleaning surfaces off with your hands an okay way to do it? are you cleaning off grit or shavings?
It's the best way! Cleaning swarf, oil and dirt.
A little tool makers jack under the grinder for height adjustment would be just the job.
where have those 10 years gone? Congratulations
Thanks
Right. Back to the next video....
Love the videos. And you sir are a gentleman. I must ask: what do you do for Rolls Royce???!!
Thanks. I work as a Process Developer in a large machine shop that does turbine components. Grinding is my main focus.
@@MrCrispinEnterprises interesting. I have been forced to move because of legal issues with my brother and my ex. We just moved my old grinders. A brown & sharpe OD//ID grinder and G&L surface grinder. I forgot how heavy these were!!!! I also need to think about moving my wadkin pattern lathe and small Wadkin pattern mill (LQ). These are in England!!!! I saw you posts on moving. I can appreciate the work. It will be a shill before I get back into steam engines. Got to timber frame a new shop. Keep up the good work.
Congratulations at 10 years with RR, in another 10 years you'll be there long enough to be taken seriously :P My wife had someone who'd done 46 years service working for her at RR.
Anyway the actual question... Is there any concern with grinding dust on the ways causing excess wear? Quinn from blondi hacks seems very concerned about it but I've no idea whether it's actually something to be concerned about?
Yes it is a problem. My plan is to lay a few damp rags over it.
Noob question, why not use a AXA / BXA tool holder for fixturing with a machinist jack style support. It'd make it easy to indicate, set the height and then pop that in the DRO tool offset for next use ?
Fixturing for which element?
@@MrCrispinEnterprises as in the toolpost grinder is attached to a QCTP holder, perhaps not as rigid ?
Oh I see. Yes that would not be very rigid. Perhaps some adapter could made to mount it to the main tool Post centre rather than having it in a holder.
I’m jumping ahead a bit, but how do you protect the lathe bed from the grinding dust? I assume the correct Rolls Royce method is a bit more sophisticated than draping a cloth over everything…
Just put a Rolls Royce jet engine at one end of the lathe and blow the dust away as you grind!
I think the Rolls-Royce approach is to do grinding on a grinding machine!
Closest I ever get to rr is when I banger race them 😂
If I remember rightly the slotted screw is a fine height adjust
I'll have a look. The one at the front near the spindle is to hold the wheel guard on.
I wondered that
7.125°, beginning to wonder what you collet, perhaps Nearly 8.
Now back for act du of our regularly scheduled education.
👍👍
Are you sure leaning on the contraption is conducive to accuracy?
If me leaning on it is a problem then I hate to think what the machining forces will do!
Good one . When you dress the wheel , that will take care of any axial alignment with the bed way for parallel grinding & the compound alignment for taper grinding . I only eyeball that part of the set up as the dressing sorts it out . Your tilt the other way is important if you are face grinding . I have a heap of video's on the TPG . In use doing parallel , taper & face grinding on my R8 tooling . Not just show & tell ones ! Cheers . 👍
Indeed. In this operation however I also need to use the face of the wheel. (typical dished wheel)
@@MrCrispinEnterprises With face grinding , you may have to shim the base of the grinder to get the criss cross pattern . There is a point just before the wheel req's re dressing that you get the best surface finish . It takes a bit of practice to get to know that point . Also i found to dis regard everything you know about cylindrical grinding when using the TPG to get the best results !
Congratulations with your 10 year. Are you aware of the term "Bar sag" and did you consider it with the indicator set-up when checking the face runout?
Thanks. Given the length and diameter of the bar and the weight of the indicator I did not include any consideration to bar sag no. Interesting point.
You are measuring a plane in the direction of gravity and so indicator sag will be at best a second order source of error
I've corrected many vibration problems with critical machinery with skilled milwrights who didn't take bar sag seriously.
This can be accomodated by tilting the machine by 90 degrees when taking the measurement.
Finally, someone with a practical solution!
To me that looks like the RR under the postgrinders.
Only another 50 years to go before you get the key to the thunder box 🤗🗝💩 . 😃👍🏴
I threw my 5" Angry Grinder away after watching this and subsequently purchased a SIP Hydroptic No.6 Jig Borer
You won't go wrong with one of those!
@ Steve W someone's been watching Cutting Edge Engineering Australia with covetous eyes!
@@samrodian919 Actually I was privileged to operate one in the toolroom at Cummins Engine Company.
could some of the error be in the bed as well? Liked the way you did this video, made it easier to absorb 👍
In theory yes the bed to spindle relationship would play a part
@@MrCrispinEnterprises you say in theory, so I presume like me you are thinking various small accumulated errors and maybe the vertical toolpost bore not vertical? Is there any way of spinning the tool post 180 deg, chucking something in a tailstock chuck and repeating the measurement ? or would this not be accurate enough.
There would be a way to do it. You would just have to find someway of mounting an indicator in a position where it could be accessed on both 0 and 180 degrees
@@MrCrispinEnterprises mmm, I'm not sure what you mean, I see another video coming?😁
I meant that you would need to have an indicator in a position where you could reach when the tool Post Grinder was at both positions. (facing the tailstock Vs facing the headstock)
👍👍😎👍👍