Game of Thrones & The White Savior Complex
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- Today's topic is a little more controversial. Today I'll be addressing Black victimhood, the White Savior narrative, the Black Best Friend trope, and how Game of Thrones generally struggles with representations of people of color. That said, I'll also be defending the show's decision to kill off Missandei, and making a short case for how it can lead to a bittersweet but poignant ending for Grey Worm.
Obviously, I want to hear from all of you, as my perspective on this topic is limited to my own life experiences. So please sound off in the comments, and let's all try to be respectful.
Missandei isn't a particularly well fleshed out character. Her motivations are intrinsically linked to Dany's story. As a character she hates slavery and loves Dany (and Grey Worm) and that's about it. She's a nice person as far as GOT characters go but there really isn't much more to her. She's there as a reminder of what Dany has achieved and gives Dany someone other than old men or warriors to talk to. She was killed to serve Dany's story because she doesn't really have a story of her own. Yes she happens to be one of the few black characters on the show but the criticism should be that she's a pretty two-dimensional character and the show should have arguably given her more to do over 6 seasons, not that they killed her. She served the purpose of a secondary or even tertiary character and was murdered to advance the story of a primary one.
You told no lies .
Missandei is not an important character in the books (it might change if the fan theories are true and she's not really a golden child, but someone creepy) and they already lost a ton of screentime on some of the most cringy scenes as either fan service (cause she's pretty) or to appease SJWs, which is obviously bound to be a failure.
Good point, but there were many characters who ended up secondary... and many whos story built up to nowhere, Varys, Littlefinger, Bran
@@fattyjaybird7505 Missandei actually replaced these important characters and it's pure fan service (just like Pod, Bronn and many others).
It can be both. The writing leaves much to be desired definitely but as a black woman, I can't help but notice that I almost always see white, male, leads, aged 25 to 35 in summer action flicks, video games, or leads in general. That might not be important to you or you simply might be too uncomfortable to talk about, that's fine. However, when we do show up, we're getting killed for certain, we're sacrificing ourselves for the main protagonist, we're subservient for some flimsy half assed reason. I really don't know how to explain it but its exhausting and just distracting enough to otherwise pretty good projects
George RR Martin answered the Daenerys being a white savior trope perfectly. In the books, Slaver's Bay is made up of slaves from all around the world: not just poorer civilisations who can't resist being taken into slavery, but residents of rival cities and soldiers in defeated armies (like slaves of the Romans). However, in the show, they shoot those scenes in Morocco. When you ask for extras in Morocco, they look like people from Morocco. It's too expensive for them to even consider flying in extras from other places. He mentioned how in the Northern Ireland dothraki scenes, a number of background ones are suspiciously paler than in the Morocco scenes. Furthermore, last episode proved that Daenerys isn't this perfect liberator. She murdered her own people by the thousand. Yes, that part of the books hasn't come out yet, but it's to be assumed that it's building to there. I think so much of this whole controversy is just unfortunate happenstances than genuine prejudice from the writers.
Morocco wasn't it?
@@edwin5145 You're right, Astapor and Yunkai were Morocco
It doesn't matter whether they consciously tried to make the "saviour complex" narrative through their casting choices etc. The trope was produced in this artwork, whether intentionally or not, and it's okay to critique it.
This comment was better than the video. Thank you
All of the "brown people" in Game of Thrones and ASOIAF are from slave cities with the exception of the Dothraki who are total savages. There is no white-majority area which allows slavery in the ASOIAF universe. Astapor, Yunkai, etc. are all brown.
Take a look at how the races are portrayed in ASOIAF/GOT:
White:
Westerosi (including most of Dorne as confirmed by George R. R. Martin)
Valyrian (including the Targaryens)
Qartheen
The Free Cities (not slaves - such as Braavos)
Brown:
Dothraki (savages)
Ghiscari (slave cities - Yunkai, Astapor, etc.)
Black:
The Summer Isles (also referred to as savages by the Qartheen)
Asian:
Yi-ti (they play no role in the story at all)
Yeah... So brown/black people are slaves and savages. I can see why some people might take issue with this.
@Jake Fields I don't think they were trying to be racist either. This is just how Martin wrote it. I don't think Martin is a racist either at all. It's just that that's how many Western writers have viewed the world.
In terms of the 1700s - yeah, most likely. But I think the time period this is set in is more like the Middle Ages when the Middle East was more advanced than Europe. Once again, I don't think Martin is a racist or even the show is racist but I can see why some people would take issue with it. If I made a show where all white people were slaves and savages and all the brown/black people were these super interesting and relatable people and the protagonists of the story I'm sure someone would notice it.
Martin described the Salty Dornish (which includes the Martells) as having brown skin (copper if I'm no mistaken), while Stony Dornish are lighter-skinned due to mixing with Andals (but that doesn't mean their white, just light-skinned). The Rhoynish came from the middle of Essos, and were based partially on Palestine and the Moorish Spain which are largely made of Arabs that vary shades of brown. And Dornish people are constantly the victim of racism in the series, such as remarks to their smell and stereotypes.
Wrong Valyria was a society whose infrastructure was maintained exclusively by slaves and many of the some of Free Cities still practice slavery. Also after everything that happened during the War of the Five Kings are you seriously trying to tell me George was trying to say that the Westerosi are in any way shape or form less savage than the Dothraki?
Yeah the Westerosi rape and pillage but they totally don't have slavery...they just sell their daughters to other nobles houses as wives to unite their houses and gain power...something that definitely didn't happen to Daenaerys in the beginning of the story.
The way they are presented the Dothraki are just the Westerosi without the pretense. Hell they admire the Westerosi and see Westeros as a land of great warriors which is why they respect Jorah so much.
"Free cities" have bunch of slaves as well though. Also, Valyrians aren't the same people as other light skinned people, they have different origins whatsoever, maybe they aren't even humans but hybrids between human and dragon, and their paleness is a result that dragons are themselves a hybrid of firewyrms and wyverns, firewyrms live undeground and thus would not have any pigmentation at all. Valyria is much more Southern than most of Essos, yet they are even lighter than Westerosi, it certainly wouldn't have natural normal human origins
Most of the white people of Westeros are also portrayed as savages, idiot. There is nonstop war, murder, rape, incest, thievery, and every other bad thing that humans do.
Sounds like you're desperately seeking a bullshit race narrative. Typical.
To be fair Essos is very multicultural in the books. The problem with the show is the lack of white extras in those areas where they were filmed.
As George RR Martin said: "You film in Malta, you get extras who are from Malta".
I honestly think it was done on purpose, nearly half of the people in the Mhysa scene were basically black, and nearly none was light skinned but Morrocans aren't black, and many of them (up to a third) are fair skinned.
Look at this scene for instance : s1.dmcdn.net/lxlFC/x1080-f54.jpg
Now compare them to actual Morrocans : www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_page/public/main-images/JeradaResidents.AFP__0.jpg?itok=yp7BqlL8
You can clearly see that Morrocans do vary from Medium brown to Light skin with Middle Eastern/Meditarrean features while people in the Mhysa scene vary from Black to Medium brown with many having features that look half black or even outright black.
So yes, I do think it was very much delibrate by D&D.
@@معرفةوترفيه-ت2ظ Just make sure to keep the smokescreen up that D&D are white and not Jewish because you can't say anything bad about them.
@@PoissonVisageStudios Malta? That's straight up a white country, shouldn't have any problem finding white people there.
@Queen Lizzy this phenotypical diversity exists all around the Arab world
Casting is interesting because the only two reoccurring characters of color are played by actors who are obviously biracial.
Notice that did ya, lol!!!
race. Ambiguity
Yeah that was pretty ridiculous, but if more people read George's description of the Africa adjacent Sothoryos, this show would have never been made lol. Greyworm was as black as it gets without and urge to... eat people.
Who even cares? Westeros is based on Europe.
Ikr...
when i finished watching "The Bells" the first thing that poped into my head was
Daenerys is the perfect Liberal Feminists Icon.
In the land of the "People or Color" she's a blond haired white women heroin who liberates them from their masters only to have them follow her like slaves and question nothing she says or does because they all love and adore her,
but in the land of "Whitey" where she's from she only knows fear and isolation because not everyone wants to "bend the knee" to her so she becomes an avenging angel who will strike down upon them with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy her people. And they will know she is the queen and burn "ALL" the white people to pay for the sins of a few
in the lands of color she nails up the masters who would nail up children to use as signpost but in the land of Whitey she turns the common folk and their children into charcoal
Not to mention she "tames" the "savage" brown people who are presented as nothing but marauders and rapists and slavers. Its like something out of colonialist propoganda news letter. GRRM atleast tried to subvert this by pointing out that she has no idea what she's doing in the books and just flinging sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. Most of which doesn't.
Bingo.
This should explain why so many cannot stand why Daenerys' story went the way it did.
Hilariously, those from countries who have seen this kind of behavior as well as historians, saw this shit coming a mile away.
I'd like to congratulate Missandei for surviving seasons 3 through 7 and most of S8. That takes a lot of luck in this brutally savage fictional world.
Actually, surprised Grey Worm survived longer
@@chasx7062, that's alright. The Naathi butterflies will eventually kill him.
Smokey La Bear Well said.
Isn't Dany's whole arc a parody on "white savior"? Like, she tries to do good, but it really turns out bad. At least in the books :D
Not a parody, but a very pointed criticism of it in the books and the TV show I thought!
Much like Paul Atreides of Dune... Though in the books he was mixed
I feel the same way, as well as a parody on progressiveness in general.
As a modern society, we usually “organically” progress towards a more free and civil way of life.
But what we’ve seen in the current generation is a rapid acceleration towards their idea of progress. And who does this progress benefit?
Did Dany free the slaves because of her progressive idealism? Or did she need an army to conquer her enemy?
@@asuka813 Uh no, the entire point of Dune is to serve as a cautionary tale AGAINST charismatic leader figures and how they end up causing more harm than good.
@@couchgrouches7667 Uh, yes, exactly why they have similar stories.
This reeks of that kind of phenomenon we see where the people who purport themselves to be the anti-racists end up being the people who think and talk the most about race. As others have said, up until this point, I've never even thought about Missandei, the unsullied, or others living in the east as being depictions of dark skinned people. I just saw them as people.
Consider that a "woke" person could complain that a story has: no people of color, people of color with relatively meaningless roles, people of color who are depicted as "the bad guy", a person of color in the side-kick role, a person of color with no arc or agency, a person of color who serves a white person, etc. It really comes off like there's nothing that will satisfy until most of our stories are predominantly represented by people of color.
The broader question is, if a white person, in a predominantly white society, creates a story with predominantly white characters, is it really all that surprising? Additionally, is it "bad" or racist?
Preach, my man.
You say it as if the golden age of white culture was not born from their tenacious desire to engage with and interact with the scores of non-white people of the planet. No one is complaining that a white show is white and has great white characters. There are scores of filthy-cis-scu-- Oops, I mean Woke people/SJWs, who enjoy white wash cast movies for no reason beyond the quality of the characters and the story they are immersed in.
The issue here is that the demonstrated ability to give believable and dynamic motivations to the most unlikely of characters seems to have stopped when - and I will not use racialised terms as I understand they trigger people - it comes to the shows foreign cast.
To now discuss racial terms... If a movie based on the brown Persian Empire's invasion of Greece did not include the fractious nature of an army made up of hundreds of different peoples, it would be a shallow movie. This is exactly what we are seeing with the depiction of Dany's analogous Persian army of various different peoples.
He isn't white or black, probably a half caste like me or something.. doubt he is anxious about trying to radiate anti-racist vibes eh
No, but this f@99ot would think it would.
Yeah what these woke people don't get is there is no such thing as race or sex privilege, just a majority and money privilege. But they're all closet or out of the closet hardcore racists and they see everything through a racial lens. Or a gendered lens. Big bad white man evil. Meanwhile they live in a majority white society where men do most of the hard work and make the most money. Common sense, wtf is that?
Your video is interesting, but I think you’ve made a big assumption: that the dynamics which dominate our world are identical to Westeros. To describe the people of Westeros as Caucasian, people of the Summer Isles as African, and the people of Ghiscar as Asian or middle eastern fails to realize that none of these places exist in the game of thrones world. Unlike our world slavery was not a prominent institution in “White” society, with Westerosi people being very anti-slavery. We have no evidence that racially motivated slavery has ever existed in the world of Westeros (the man who owned Missandei prior to her meeting Dany was himself a “Poc”). The commentary on the ultimately selfish nature of Danerys’ quest for the Throne is poignant, but I think the racial analysis is unnecessary and distracting from what I think is actually a major theme of the story.
Winster Languish I didn't use the words African or Caucasian in this video.
While what you say is very reasonable, it does not prevent the showrunners, writers, editors and directors from conceiving a narrative based on the very assumptions you believe are anachronistic or not reflective of the time period. There is such a thing called "unconscious bias." If one accepts that everyone comes from different lived experiences, is it then so strange that someone might reasonably share the views expressed in this video? Reasonable people can differ on a whole host of issues. Moreover, since we are discussing the TV series rather than the book, it is quite possible you are both right. The showrunners have demonstrated a willingness to manipulate all kinds of tropes, memes, bias etc. "to stir the pot" for the sake "of selling a show. If you look at the reactions to Episode 4, pay close attention to which groups of people were more rattled by Jon not petting Ghost in his farewell vs the beheading of Missandei in chains. The attack on Rhaegal annoyed everyone equally. There's a reason why Episode 4 received historic low ratings. I understand what you're saying. But I also understand YezenIRL's comment and I am thankful for the insights he presents.
@@yezenirl6331 You are using terms like "people of colour" which is the catch all term for anyone who isnt from Norway basically. Essos in many ways, if disunited, is a more sophisticated area than westeros. The Valyrians were basically Rome meets Mordor as run by white people and their genetic heritage is visible in the people of essos. Alot of them have purple eyes for example, a detail the show skipped that is almost unique to Valyrians in the known world.
Race was never at the front of GOT's narrative. It has always been more about cultural differences.
The issue is more about, as you said, the lack of agency for colored characters. That is why nobody complains about Khal Drogo's death or the disappearance of Sallador Saan. These chracters had agency where Grey Worm and Missande seem leashed to Daenery's narrative.
THIS! This is exactly what I hated having to discuss when black Twitter lost its shit.
Ehh...everything does not have to be about everything. I understand that there are people that seem to need to make every single thing about race, or gender, or some other group identity, but this was not a very good example of a story in which this discussion has any real merit. Are we now supposed to pretend that Greek or Norse or African mythology was perpetuating some systemic bias, because they had the audacity to imagine all their deities as being the one ethnicity they had, at the time, ever seen? All the humans in Tolkien's mythological version of midieval Europe looked like midieval europeans. Must I know pretend London was always ethnically diverse so I can accuse Tolkien of being a racist? At what point do we just allow logical context to be more important than the need to have every possible thing represented equally in every moment? Why are the same people who would accuse any show with 20 caucasian characters and one "minority" of being racist, the very same people who proclaim that Black Panther, or Get Out are beacons of social-change, for doing that exact thing in reverse? Modern Harlem is as diverse as any other part of NYC, yet Luke Cage depicted this modern Harlem as being Harlem from 40 years ago (which actually did not bother me one bit, but in the context of the modern racial rhetoric shows itself as being entirely hypocritical, when we are also making Zeus be african in a Netflix series about the Trojan wars, in the name of "inclusivity"). We need to decide which set of rules we are playing by, because right now I see an ideology that wants to have a different set of rules, for different races, and THAT is the definition of systemic racism. We have lost the plot, when it comes to logic.
You can't base FANTASY on REAL geographic locations lol. At least don't give the image of minorities as these wild characters, as slaves, or those NEEDING to be saved.
@@Renee84 right...because the people actually called "the wildlings", who needed saving were not white. If I can not base fantasy geographic locations on real ones, then you can not base fantasy social issues and perspectives on your modern one. If you eat your cake you do not get to have it too.
Both GRRM and Tolkien stated directly that their locales were based on Europe, by the way. So it is silly to pretend they are not.
Dan Elmore I wasn’t even going to bother replying to this because it’s clear you’re someone who has never even bothered reading the tons of material already written about race and Game of Thrones (and the fantasy genre in particular). But I will.
Medieval Europe was ethnically and racially diverse, by the way. And we’re talking about a TV show, so the fact that this fictional world is based on medieval Europe which, in your view, is only white (it wasn’t) is not as relevant as you think. The show is a modern cultural production and therefore is not exempt from critiques based on current discourses of race and ethnicity.
I’m one of the people who lauded Black Panther while criticizing Game of Thrones for the way it’s treated people of colour. I take these positions on these two productions because I place them both in the context of a long tradition of people of colour being excluded, erased, misrepresented, and mistreated by makers of film and television that have historically preserved and prioritized whiteness as default.
Please stop talking like you know what “systemic racism” is. I’m just going to hope that you’re actually just ignorant on the subject and not ignorant AND disingenuous. I would recommend you engage with the literature on the subject.
@@marie-anneredhead713 yes I had absolutely no doubt you were "one of the people who lauded Black Panther while criticizing Game of Thrones", because you always sounded like exactly the sort of new pseudo-liberal millennial that thinks blatant double standards somehow are not the anti-thesis of believing in equality.
The convenient aspect of presenting one's self as though they, or people that completely agree with them, are the only ones educated, or enlightened enough to have a valid opinion on a subject, is that it frees them from every having to content with the potential flaws in their own ideological framework. Further, perhaps it might be worth a moment of your time to consider that simply having been "written about tons" does not make a perspective any more objectively valid - it just makes it popular. Lots of stupid ideas have been very popular. I would think someone who lauds their own informed historical perspectives would be well aware of this.
But please, talk to me like I am "ignorant" and/or "disingenuous" some more. It is such a great way to present one's self as intellectually or morally superior.
@@danelmore6553 Indeed! She claims you have not read tons of material on GoTs, but forgets that GRRM is an avid history buff and put a lot of research into his own story. He even answered this question about race and stated that he writes only what he knows about: being a white male. It is known GoTs is loosely based on British Royal history and the map is literally the UK and Ireland flipped. You CAN extrapolate things about race and culture from weather and terrain, which is reflected in the map, as well as, the overall story of GoTs.
I feel like this video misses the point on a few issues, at least for the books, the show may have oversimplified it too much. I think subtly through GRRM's writing he actually takes the white savior trope and subverts it by being a parallel of modern interventionism, it's just hidden behind a cause everyone can get against, slavery. If you think about it, the US and other western countries has supplanted dictators in many regions under the guise of freedom and better life conditions. But this results in destabilization and a lot of suffering when they eventually have to pull out. The same thing is happening to Dany in the books and in the show she put a bloodthirsty mercenary in charge. She was never supposed to be a white savior.
everyone who knows anything about GRRM, knows how much he loves Europe history and especially England history. In so many of his characters and stories you can find inspiration from some king/queen from England's history. Even the land of Westeros is shaped very similarly to UK's land. So GRRM wrote his books based on midieval Europe, why would he write stories based on Chinese history if he was not interested in that and didn't grow up learning about it. There are so many races in his books, but since we are focused on Westeros then we get primarily white people as main characters. Also you have to take in consideration that people have evolved like on Earth, their skin pigmentation depends on sun exposure so probably Essos is wormer than Westeros and that's why there are more people of colour. And slaves are not only black people and are not slaves because of their skin color.. you are looking at this world from the eyes of an American, but this world was never supposed to be like America. In this world there was never black slavery and people don't judge each other based on skin color but based on money and other things. Just imagine a world where there was no slavery of black people and you will understand this world more. It's sad to see so many people obsessing over race issues in books where there was never focus on that.
Skin getting pigmented is not evolution but natural selection. Natural selection is not evolution.
Imperialism and colonialism was not exclusive to the new world, it happened in Java, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Australia, and the entire continent of Africa. GRRM can make a story however he wishes, but to say European history exists in a bubble excluded how intimately interlaced it is with the Middle East, China and North Africa would be foolish. It's just a critique of a trope in western media. The way the show presented these characters is at fault, as someone who hasn't read the books, I'm sure GRRM wasn't as clumsy as D&D.
@@jp2650 Natural selection is the core driver of evolution. Skin pigmentation change is a form of evolution through natural selection.
Natural selection is literally what drives evolution to happen. 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
@@jp2650 >"natural selection is not evolution"
someone failed their biology class
5:11 wait until he learns about the Butterfly Fever lol
Firespur haha I thought the same thing! Bran could have just waited a few months for the unsullied to get to naarth and die of butterfly fever then free Jon
The butterfly fever isn't show canon though
Benjamin Garrett it’s a major aspect in the book and the reason Naath is so foreign
Dany isnt actually a perfect fit for the white saviour.
White saviour comes from outside and uses his POW of a white outsider to help the natives.
But Dany isnt really an outsider. She may be westerosi by birth, but she spent her entire life in Essos. In free cities, which also have slavery.
Im Asian and i dont have any problem with watching GOT and Black Panther or any other NON SOUTHEAST ASIAN movies, literature etc. freaking snowflakes.
This.
So easily triggered by analysis...
@@Renee84 Nope triggered by racist female sexist liberal...
Emilia Clarke, nor the character she plays, Daenerys, are white. Look at her hair, that is white. Light-skinned people are not white in colour. Furthermore, the term "people of colour" really needs to quit being used as it makes anyone who uses it sound stupid. Everyone is a person of colour. Your skin cannot be void of colour, thus, even if white were an actual skin tone, you'd still be something which is listed in the realm of COLOUR. People really need to learn the definitions of the words they use.
If you can only see Color defining what happens to the characters, it’s a pity. There are so many layers of meaning in GRRM’s GoT, that i bet he does’nt even care about this color discussion. you are losing so much trying to reduce this masterpiece to colors. And screwing up the story. Shame.
Did you even listen to the video?
You missed the point of the video, likely because you didn't watch it and just read the title
Thank you for making this excellent video! I am frustrated by these comments (I seriously commend you for reading) that minimize race as something not worth analyzing or taking seriously in media. As long as race remains an issue that shapes our lives in the real world, it shapes our consumption of media - nothing happens in a vacuum. I really like your point that even Missandei and Grey Worm's happiness function as a reflection of Dany's liberation of them (which itself is tied to her own conquest for the Iron Throne and not all that benevolent in my eyes). Many around me are upset that the most prominent POC were stripped of happy endings, but you're right that that ending is too predicated on Dany's arc to have been meaningful in its own right. Really appreciate your channel and its fresh insights!
Keep bringing up race, racist.
@@neamraven That's not what a racist is lol.
@@Renee84 yes it is lol
5:00 very good points. (Like I’ve said) I wish that the Dothraki were at least acknowledged after SPOILERS Danny’s death (possibly some Dothraki could have reflected on how she had manipulated them for her own goals and didn’t really care about their people)
He'll die due to butterfly fever though
Writers write what they know. I'm fine with a white author focusing his story on white heroes and villains...they know white people and cultures. I'm also fine with non-white authors focusing their stories on non-white heroes and villains...they know non-white people and their cultures. I don't get upset when non-white atuhors r not inclusive to whites. So, y do so many non-whites take issue when white authors aren't as inclusive as they'd like? Seems like whites r the only people socially pressured into being culturally/racially inclusive, and I think that is kind of a racist hypocrisy non-whites could spend some time examining within themselves.
This sounds like every brainless reactionary take on youtube that comes from personal feelings rather than data. What evidence do you have (real evidence not your opinion) that white people are required to be more inclusive than non-white people in their writing? I'll wait.
What about all the mostly white murders, be headings etc.
When I was growing up we watched the movie not spend the whole time discerning how many POC or white were cast. Now movies are made black only (black panther) or condescending (dear white people) or just showing white people doing bad things to further divide us. Your points are interesting until you made it about color, Mother of Dragons freed the people but then put her own desires of the iron throne ahead of what was best for her people. That’s not color, it’s human nature, flawed as it is.
You have to admit it's a bit weird that all the slaves are non-european in the show but in the books there are thousands of slaves from all different parts of the world, including westerosi.
Monty Parata What does that mean to you? As much as we evolve as humans we still fall back to being tribal, us/them seems to be human nature. We get tribal with skin color, location, sports teams. I don’t think it’s evil just a way of belonging. Slavery has existed since there has been humans, we all agreed as a species we don’t want it. Is one race more guilty then another, depends on the century. If we want something different for the future that’s what we should talk about, World Peace ✌️ 🌎
That may have something to do with where the scenes we're filmed. If I filmed a scene in Japan I would probably expect 99% of the extras who applied to be Asian. Unless you think it's the responsibility of HBO to pay exponentially more to fly in white extras. But then, that would probably be problematic as well because they were hiring white people over locals.
All I’m gonna say is that I’m tired of this point of contention. If we can’t see characters as characters, instead only seeing them for the color of their skin, it will be the death of meaningful stories. I understand where people are coming from when they talk about “white saviors,” but I think that mindset is a bit short sighted. Daenerys is Daenerys, not “white girl.” Greyworm is Greyworm, not “black guy/eunuch.”
In stories and in reality, if we refuse to put one’s character before the color of their skin, we do a massive disservice to everything and everyone involved. I’m not pretending like GoT is perfect in terms of expressing these characters, but it’s foolish to tout their race like thats all that they are. GoT isn’t a story that centers around race that way - if it was, then it would be a very different show.
Shit I think I just summed up a good chunk of my issue with modern race politics in general, imma bookmark this tab for later.
Change race/brown/black to foreign and white to native and his point is equally as valid, but you cannot see that because your opposition to "modern race politics" has come to define your identity.
Your point is idealistic. You're asking us to "see characters as characters" yet we are not color blind. Maybe some day we can live in a post-racial society, until then race is a reality and ignoring that is itself short sighted and doing a disservice to those that are treated unfairly and unequally due to the color of their skin (no matter they are white/black/brown/etc).
stickersdogcat42
I see where you’re coming from, and in a different case I might agree then and there. But frankly, I don’t see how pushing a “white savior” narrative into Daenerys’ arc is going to do anything other than make race a steeper point of contention. Particularly in a narrative circumstance where our world’s racial stigma simply don’t exist (unless I’m missing some crucial GoT lore).
P. S. Is it wrong for my point to be idealistic? Like, I don’t think its terribly wrong to ask that people consider character over race, especially in a fiction where race isn’t the crux of the narrative. Anywho, thanks for being civil in your reply. Few often are.
That is really easy to say when the narrative is always shown one way. When they start reversing the Dany characters into black people and the eunuch slaves into white men, people will certainly notice.
Westeros is an island populated by white people.. The story is based on that island. There are other parts of this world that are black or brown, but the focus of this story is in Westeros. Not everything is about race. A story should not have to be written to appease the political demands of extremists in modern society. I grow tired of some people looking for racism in every utterance or action that a person makes. Blacks are populating the movies and television in droves now. There is no question about equality. I even see stupid characterizations of a black Romeo and Juliet in a very white Verona setting (or should have been) Hollywood is bending over backward to satisfy people of color. We have a Flash with a black wife when in comic books for the past seventy years, she has been white. Why did that happen? Appeasement to the black community. Stop your nonsensical whining.
Thank you amen! I only clicked on this article bc I couldn’t believe the title of this video and how it can totally miss the point of what a show is supposed to be about. There are instances where race has been an issue in the past and present, and there are instances when race is baited in order to get attention and serves as click bait. This video is the latter. If people truly want racism to end, then soo injecting it where it doesn’t belong just to instigate an inflammatory discussion. We just had 8 years of an African American president. Know it off.
This is probably a reach, but I'm just thinking out loud. In the books, Dany is told she will be betrayed 3 times once for blood, once for gold and once for love. I think the betrayal for blood was the death of her son and husband for blood magic. And the betrayal for gold was Jorah. Many people think the betrayal for love will be Jon or Tyrion. But what if the betrayal for love is Greyworm and his being so distraught over the death of his love, Missandei and he betrays Dany in the end.... Just a thoery tho.
A point to consider, everyone overthinks everything. Me included. But relaize that We live in the West and come from this culture. Of course our heroes and such will probably be white... FFS.. If we were Hindi or Buddhist we would have brown skin heroes.. Its not a conspiracy, just the part of the world we live in.. Expand the movie house productions and watch foreign films n tv. That will show the difference. In this new world view of a colorless and unified culture we question every step we take.. Lol. Its all anyones perceptive. No hate .. Just this mental masturbation.. Lol Cheers
You say "we live in the west". Well, I'm brown. And Mexicans aren't white either. Plenty of South Americans got some color, too.
@Mystique Dreamer 👍 originally it was simpler ... Thats the beauty of culture NoW, its not just a skin color or religion..
@@sethduffey9538duffey culture is beauty yes............ skin color is just being some generations longer in the sun or not... and religion well that's a whole other discussion....
@@MrKoxe111 i do think Messandie death was not necessary and overkill..
@Queen Lizzy yep... Gene Roddenberry liked that idea. A trek dream of a better future. Yes we are barbaric but we wont kill today.. ;) a larger issue of who has what and the have not , needs to solved. As long as people hold a grudge for a "wrong" done to them centuries ago or who is the super power now or not, will be a huge advance.. Because alot of our problems simply come down to who has the upper hand in any era. Does one race/ethnicity have too much power or cultural dominance.. When things are broken down to the point that we are all in the same boat. Then we might get it right.. Lol Cheers
You’ve made some interesting points but you’re technically wrong when you said all of the POV characters are white. In Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons Arianne and Quentyn Martell both are POV characters, they are both described as having darker skin since the Martells are descended from the Rhoynar. But I guess that doesn’t really matter cuz D&D cut them out from the show completely :/
That's exactly why it doesn't matter, the guy's talking about a television show.
@@KinginCanada He is still factually wrong, Mixed people do not equal White people.
the martells are more southern european
more like greece or southern italy
It isnt about race or skin colour, why did that have to be shoehorned in here? Can we really just let that SJW nonsense die already and move on? Despite being particularly underwhelming lately (unfortunately) the story is great because of the multidirectional sides of the characters that it introduced to us, nothing to do with white saviours or people of colour tropes. Thank you.
How can you fail to see the point that the "multidirectional sides of the characters" are under explored in the case of the show's many brown characters. He's literally pushing for the show to do more of exactly what you say you like about it and you're blinded by the fact its SJW?
Can you not see how you are becoming the very 2012-2016 SJW you rightfully despised so much? You're literally getting mad because the discussion is not being had by your rules. You may as well be telling him to shut up for not using the correct pronouns.
Thank you.
It's so weird for a Russian guy to watch a western show, just see people as people, and only then discover than color of people actually matter. I keep forgetting that for every western producer it [color] really does matter.
Gj GoT though, that it didn't emphasize the color that much for me to notice it w/o others pointing it out.
When it comes to more problematic tropes, one I see again and again is girl dies so boy can learn a lesson. It’s demeaning.
I agree with you. Thought it never crossed my mind she was black. for me I found it heartbreaking that one of the only truly good and pure characters was killed as she was.
Maybe a show that isn’t worried about racial politics is actually more woke than you are for being so concerned with color. Ever consider that?
I think race has been handled well. The Dothraki are warriors and they believe Dany is some sort of god. The unsullied are used in Dany’s plans to take over Westeros. The narrative focuses around the Westerosi. Dany is taking advantage of Messandi and the unsullied in a way. They aren’t supposed to be important characters. It completely makes sense that their lives after slavery are based on serving another type of master because that is all they know. Colored characters aren’t essential to a story about medieval Europe. It does seem like more of a cultural difference than a racial divide. Dany treats the Unsullied the same as the Second Sons. They are all equal underneath her in her eyes unless they’ve committed some great atrocity. Dany gives off colonial vibes toward both Essos and Westeros.
Except "colored", lol... characters are essentially to the books pertaining to Westeros. This isnt Earth, this is human history, that isnt medieval europe. It based on that time period politically and socially, but beyond that the two have no connection.
And there are plenty of blacks in Europe's history. Europe's history is essentially black history in that Europeans were Africans that settled there and became pale.
@@bouttreefiddy6163
"And there are plenty of blacks in Europe's history. Europe's history is essentially black history in that Europeans were Africans that settled there and became pale."
no, there are a hand full of non-whites in european history. european history is white history, not black history. but "we wuz kangz n sheit", right? and no, sub-saharan africans didn't walk to europe and become white (europeans). you have a clownish understanding of evolution.
@@easyovenoperator5692 lol... We wuz black first hurt your feelings, huh
@@easyovenoperator5692 you have no concept of "adaptation" and you probably cant even define evolution. Idiot. Dont tag me again.
@@easyovenoperator5692 we wuz yo daddy
www.livescience.com/7863-people-white.html
While I disagree with your defense of the decision, I appreciated you making this video because as a Black person who has talked about this issue on GOT for years, it means opening yourself up to a minefield of "but historical accuracy tho" and I appreciate you tackling it even if we do disagree.
Interesting analysis. I think the trope is there 1) deliberately, so it can be subverted and 2) as a reflection of history. Firstly, the Targaryens are never depicted as benevolent or good people, especially when it comes to race. They were from a middling family in an oligarchical empire ruled by patriarchs that was famed for its cruelty and use of slavery (not unlike the Roman Republic). As members of an arrogant dynasty thought to descend from ancient godlike powers, they always thought they ruled over 'savages' or 'miscreants' who needed administrative structure and reform to enable the ambitions they carved out for themselves as rulers. The positive things we hear from them in the story are their own propaganda and reflective of the worship we have today for ancient military might and power borne from blood. We ignore all this throughout the story because (as white/European readers at least) we've been taught to see the parallels with history and see these qualities as admirable. I honestly believe GRRM is playing on our tendency to do this in set up for Daenerys' horrifying, self-serving actions later on. To this end, it's not actually a coincidence that they were written as pale people with pale coloured hair - they represent in the story the European tendency for Manifest Destiny.
Secondly, the Targaryens aren't just fictional, they're based in real world history - which of course, is where the bad white behaviour existed that's led to the racial problems still echoed today. If you look closely at the story of the Targaryens, you see strong parallels with the ambitious and head strong Queen Cleopatra and her Dyanasty of Macedonian-Greek (foreign) heritage as the final descendent in the Ptolemy dynasty in Egypt. Like Cleopatra, Daenerys had a conquering visionary predecessor 300 years before with a legacy still spoken about with respect by the time of her birth. She wins the hearts and minds of the people who in turn consolidate her power, competes with her own brother for the Throne, carries a child with a birthright that enables her own family to conquer the world, enters the political sphere of a foreign power that she's not particularly familiar with, becomes distracted by the love of one of the generals there and ultimately this becomes her own undoing. This all really happened and is reflected in GRRM's story as a parallel to the nature of power and our relationship to it.
I see a major issue with the end of your first paragraph showing that they are some sort of manifest destiny for European peoples. The ideas of manifest destiny were not an ancient or medieval practice, nor was it inherent at all during the majority of any nations history. I mean, manifest destiny is a STRICTLY AMERICAN topic, it can't be applied to other countries since its meaning literally stops making sense. However, a better word would be lebensraum, which was the Nazi policy of expansion for more living space. The main issue, is that this still is not applicable to europe until the Renaissance when colonialism begins, and the valyrians are not based on colonialism. The valyrians are based on the Roman Empire, which is not an inherently European style country. Similar nations would be China, The Mongolian Empire, Literally most muslim Caliphates, and Majapahit. It would be crazy to assume this sort of nation-building tendency has anything to do with the color of skin, or even culture (very few cultures are pacifist in complete nature). I also do not see how Cleopatras rule somehow has created Egypts predicament today? She was actually a really good leader all things considered, and never harbored "Conquer the world" ambitions. She simply tried to play the political game to the best of her ability against the Romans, and chose the wrong side. If it wasn't for her, Egypt would have been swallowed whole in a much more ruthless nature. Not to mention, she almost won while regaining ancient egyptian lands without shedding a drop of blood. She didn't get distracted by love, they were political moves through and through.
Grey worm isn't really a black guy in the book, more implied middle eastern. I'm sorry but for a story based so much on medieval europe I have no idea why you expect to see a good portion of the cast being african. I don't read fantasy books based in japan inspired locations and expect to see many white people. if you were arguing for more africa inspired fantasy I'd be behind that but that is not what game of thrones is/ intends to be so preaching on like this is worthless for the show and book series you are criticising
This comment is hilarious. You obviously didn't watch the video and are just shitposting.
@@lanzinator4734 mostly I'm confused as to what the argument is about. like.. George wrote a story about people in a european inspired setting, I have no idea why this guy is projecting racial issues into it where none really ever existed
@@telcharthegreatsmithofthef7585 well more middle eastern in the books. and I don't see how two middle easterners would become key players in European politics
@@telcharthegreatsmithofthef7585 well that doesn't really apply here. The targeryans were already foreigners to westeros and were heavily implied to be closer ethnically to the slavers in these cities than they ever were to the westerosi.
@Queen Lizzy The show fucked up every character in the final few seasons and I'd argue they did more harm to fan favourites like tyrion than they did to either grey worm or my sundae. This is reading race into a story that was never about race.
I dont really believe that daenerys' motivations for freeing the slaves fit the white saviour trope. She's not doing it because she feels responsible for them, she does it out of sympathy. Daenerys herself was sold to the khals basically as a slave. As for the black bestfriend trope, you might be right about that.
shes a white savior not through her motivations but the world built which shows that people of color can only build flawed societies that are inherently bad and need a white person to fix them. The slaver's bay cities practice of having unsullied kill a puppy that they were given and then finally kill a newborn to complete their training makes these societies cartoonishly evil. Its also funny that the civilization that they almost all look up to and or were ruled by is a blue eyed, white haired white civilization (valryians). All the colored characters are either evil and the good ones are rebels against their civilization after being enlightened by a white savior that they all call mother or they've taken up a westerosi cause.
She says that, but does she DO it? No.
I agree with the first part but not the second part... when you write you usually put yourself as the main charcater... everybody thinks this way... it just feels this way cos white ppl have the population in america... so they do most things...
Daenerys was worse than a white savior. She was a colonizer.
@@lastword8783
Problem with your statement is that everyone builds deeply flawed societies. Valyria adopted the concept of slavery from old Ghis and literally had slaves mine under volcanoes to the point of wishing death. That’s literally the origin of the faceless men. They are not really enlightened by her visions either, I guarantee you every single one of the slaves had visions to break slavery. It’s just that they couldn’t but now someone with power comes and gives them that opportunity.
There's a simple solution write a series of books based on your culture in a fantasy world and turn it into a television show. 😊
"I want to continue writing stories badly, if you don't like it, write your own!"
What is so wrong with having every character be dynamic and multi-faceted? No one is saying white authors can't include minority characters, they're just warning against including minority characters in a superficial way. I dare say, had this been worded correctly, you would have agreed whole heartedly about the poorly developed characters alluded to in this video essay.
Furthermore, imagine a film hits the big screen - written by a black author - where the white people included are only depicted as sadistic and evil, and then only act on the basis of those assumptions. Would you just shut up and accept it, or would you call it out for being poor story telling?
Fuck me, have some compassion dude.
@@KingCribble Most films or shows centered around primarily black characters that I've seen are often also created by black people and, yes, they do frequently show white people as mostly one dimensional or the butt of a joke or simply the antagonist. This ranges from 'social commentary' films, to coemdic tv shows, to Tyler Perry. What GoT did to Missandei and Grey Worm, two underwhelming characters of color in the books, isn't even worth mentioning in comparison. If you're gonna have compassion, you'd best also call a spade a spade.
@@ManSeekingMeaning There are dozens of positively received videos that critique those issues of representation. Its exactly why I brought it up, friend. To contrast the reception of those videos with the reception of this one.
You are absolutely correct and I’m happy that you made this video acknowledging a few of the racial issues in GOT. The lives of the Dothraki were put to the army of the dead first with no real plans of saving them. They needed Daenerys army because they were all people of colour. It was extremely sad to me to see them all get wiped out with no proper strategy. Additionally, the Unsullied all being castrated disgusts me, to take slaves that you have stopped from reproducing is another form of genocide. But this has already happened when doctors in the US were sterilizating black women to control the black population.
All that said this is game of thrones, everyone dies, no one is a hero and everyone gets taken as a prisoner. This may be more controversial but I appreciate watching a good “white show”. I don’t need biracial people in it especially if they will be portrayed like this.
Thank you for exploring this topic and not being afraid.
Afraid of what? Criticizing "white saviors" or white people in general, whining about diversity, or bitching about a lack of non-white characters is about the safest and least controversial thing you can do these days. It's always hilarious when one of you morons equates wokeness to bravery. Nothing requires less courage than parroting Regressive-Left talking points like this video is doing. He doesn't need to be afraid of agreeing with the status quo.
If you'd read any of his books you'd know he was one of the 1st to have a black female lead as a savior. Also the portrayal in the books of this series is different from the show in many ways. These were all just people to me. People who live in different circumstances due to location. Not color. Color has never meant anything to the story and I have no idea why anyone would even bring it up. It has no bearing whatsoever.
He is obviously discussing the show. The show made Missandei and Greyworm black (not explicitly stated in the books). They also aged her considerably. We are talking about D&D's portrayal of black sidekicks. They had no agency or cause beyond serving Dany UNTIL the brief Winterfell scene we got this season.
@@ocky88 They're not black
@@unrepentantjaegerist7236 k. I'll bite. What race would u say they are?
@@ocky88 Certainly not black. If being half non white makes them different from whites in the eyes of white people, then being half non black makes them different from us.
The issue is, A Song of Ice and Fire is based on European history - specifically British history. The War of the Roses, Lancaster being Lannister and York being Stark. I don't understand why everything has to be inclusive.
Someone finally said it! I've always had an issue with the character of Daenerys. She liberates people to build her army in a land that has nothing to do with the seven kingdoms. She didn't liberate the Dothraki people. What do the Dothraki and Unsullied get out of fighting for the Mother of Dragons? Nothing. She is a foreign queen whose connection to the people died in season 1. She had to be counselled to rule in Meereen, since her thing was just to kill and conquer. Even during the battle at Winterfell, who were on the front line to die?
You're right that her brown and tan subjects never seem to have any true agency. I always saw them as a means to an end to achieve her ultimate goal. If Daenerys winds up on the iron throne, what happens to the those who traveled across the sea on "wooden horses" to fight and (in many instances) die for her?
I agree with everything you said. However, (yes) the whole mid-evil genre is based on Europe and GRRM & HBO know that 70+ percent of their audience will be white. So if this was set in Asia I would expect a completely different set of characters and story telling.
@phoenixkhost Ifkr. I swear these people are such hypocrites. 'Dany has a white savior complex for saving all those people of color. I'm going to make a video now addressing that I (not a person of color) think this isn't good for people of color'.
@@NigelUltra He said in the video that he is a poc. He's just not black.
@@Huntr-bg7cm "If you don't like it, make your own" is such a banal, brain-dead take that can be levelled against any criticism of media.
@@rohancooray194 Then still.
Not really, GOT has an avid worldwide audience. It's probably the only show that has this vast of an audience
Its not about the skin color. There are good and bad people in every race and the skin color doesnt mean anything unless you believe it does. Like there have been slavery and so on, but not by collective evil in skin color.
Why do people care about skincolour so much? Doesn't it just create more conflict?
Yea, as Morgan Freeman once said to get rid of racism just stop talking about it and live as you do.
Open doors to people, smile, make friends with people.
Madness and stupidity, those are the main reasons. You got racist on one hand and on the other pleople who are so desperate to appear as "not racist". But they all make the same demarcation about skincolour.
1) PREACH! Thanks for posting this. There aren't enough discussions surrounding this aspect of the show. While the hysterics and toxicity within this fandom make discussions about this issue nigh impossible, I wish more people would dip their toe in the pool so it's not so easily dismissed as "sjw nonsense" or whatever ad hominem rhetoric is dominating the discourse these days.
2) Despite being a PoC (African-American/Indigenous American) I've never been bothered by the White Savior portrayal of Danerys. I always assumed it was a combination of original intent to critique the fantasy genre and the practial concerns about hiring locals as extras in the locations Slaver's Bay scenes were filmed. The showrunners would be (rightly) criticized for flying in hundreds or thousands of extras from Europe to Morocco just to create crowds that more closely resemble the diverse slave poplulation depicted in the books. It perfectly suits Dany as a VERY entitled, grey character with a God complex and cynical motivations for becoming the "Breaker of Chains."
I thought it was a rather elegant, subtle approach to addressing the broader issue of fantasy creature as stand-ins for ethnic/religious minorities (Orcs, Dwarves, talking animals in Narnia, aliens in Star Wars, etc.) and other backwards portrayals of PoC as sidekicks and one-dimensional side characters/walking plot devices that plague the genre.
No this was brilliant. Hit the nail on the head. It’s not that deep but you expressed it perfectly. And as a black person I can only agree and notice how many narratives use the same methods for their white characters. Great vid!
Dan Shevock completely agree.
It's been a while since I read the books but I thought the majority of westeros and essos were white
Then you thought wrong :)
@@Gotenks7Kid No I'm pretty sure I'm right. Essos is like mainland europe to westeros Britain. It's only a few islands like the summer isles that have black characters. The Dothraki are described as having bronze skin
You are right, they are white and a lot of them are actually lighter in coloring. There is of course a question of what we consider white (to me if you are not black or Asian, you are white) and whether there are other races in his world (for example the copper skin, especially with Essos being kinda sorta Eurasia is confusing), but that's beside the point. They shown "brown" (for lack of better term) people, because of where they shot the scenes.
Lastly, Dany is not even supposed to represent Europeans, Valyrians are actually inspired by the mythical Alexandrian people, had the show left a little book magic and gave her the purple eyes, maybe people would catch that.
ocandro There seems to be a pretty decent amount of immigration going on in Westeros, even in A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings. In Kingslanding there are black (blaaack) people in the city. One being a whore who interacted with Littlefinger, another who essentially worked for Varys. My assumption is that the black characters in the novels in mainland Westeros most likely come from the Summer Isles.
@@IKhanmakeWAR2 absolutely, but we only visit Westeros and parts of Essos and immigrants are not majority, by definition.
The unsullied wouldn't be able to go to Naath as there is a butterfly there which kills outsiders after a year, only natives can stay on the island without dying
That's only true in the books.
@@yezenirl6331 oh I didnt know that, fair enough
YezenIRL true but it’s implied by how davos mentions the butterflies when he first met missandei
Sounds like an analogy of Malaria.
@@KingCribble idk its a disease they carry that only people who arent native to Naath get. It kills you after a year. The people of Naath are so peaceful that they dont resist slavery, or any attack, the attackers just end up dead either way after a year.
Ok people care about race too much. It's like just watch or read the original source material? Even though I hate this last season, race has never crossed my mind this way. I'm Mexican by the way so al l.j the grown people that died I didnt sit there and be like "oh why are alm the brown people dead? I just thought oh yeah a foreign army with a mad person leading them died in a diffrent country which was based of England. The war in real that happened aka the war of the Roses.
Didn't Dany specifically say the unsullied and all the other former slaves were free to do whatever they wanted? She didn't force them to go to Westeros, or fight the Night King, or fight Cersi. They chose to follow her *cough* agency *cough*...
Nah. That won't fly. Freed people with no land, no wealth, and no immediate plan for survival are still vulnerable to being controlled. That is why so many freed slaves in the US ended up becoming sharecroppers in the years following emancipation. That system looked a helluva lot like slavery. As far as the show, the unsullied were castrated, programmed soldiers. Someone showing up, buying them, and saying do what you want really doesn't do much in terms of giving them agency. Your argument would make sense for the Dothraki maybe. But when she killed all the Khals, Dany kinda also forced them into a decision to follow her. However, I could see them elevating some bloodriders to khal and continuing on their way, so maybe there was some agency.
@@ocky88 I mean it probably wasn't the most ideal situation, but a highly trained professional soldier can go basically anywhere and make money as a sellsword.
@@mrbubbles6468 she had very small dragons and no army when she freed the unsullied. They easily could have just killed her and ruled the city on their own.
@@ocky88 They could fucking murdered Dany on the spot and elected a new Khal she was standing in the middle of a group of Doth naked
@@ocky88 The Dothraki were not forced to follow her at all. Khals rise from power and strength, they would have found new leaders. The unsullied on the other hand were a organized disciplined fighting force. They did not have to follow anybody, they could have defended and ruled the cities which they came, overseeing them and taking a bit of profit in order to sustain themselves
Sorry but wtf are you talking about.
Your perspective is not nuanced either. You are looking at the skin of the characters and you sort them into classes that are based on their skin. There is "the white saviour" and the "black best friend". Yet the books and the show were never about race but you make this a problem.
It is not problematic when a character with a totally weak plot dies to furthen the plot of one of the main characters. The problem you have with that is that this character happens to be black and the other one happens to be white.
You can clap it if you want: Race*should*not*matter.
I agree. He kinda forgot that neither Missandei or Grey Worm is black in ASOIAF. As well as Salador Saan isn't black. And Xaro Xhoan Daxos isn't black.
You are super intelligent. It’s almost intoxicating. If you’re not already spoken for, I’d love to see where this could lead lol
Its not a race based issue in the books. she is a saviour and they are those redeemed by her but its weird to frame it as a race issue and is more just putting our shit into the story rather than correctly framing it as just the issues of framing anyone as a 'saviour'. both the effects it has on the saviour and those they 'redeem'. to make it about colour is to miss the main issue and not something GRRM is addressing in the story. People in malta just happen to look like people in malta :D
Problematic in our world, but not so in medieval Britain or Classical Minor Asia. Their concept of race and social standing quite alien to us.
Picture the same story set in Rome, with the seven kingdoms now its major provinces. And the several Caesar's vying for the imperial crown.
Nobody would point out the problem of depicting Gallic or Gothic mercenaries as expendable. Our short lives cause this projection, that is inherently based in our own ignorance and insecurity.
There is no such thing as medieval Brittan
Yeah.... their is tons of evidence that racism wasn't really a thing in the Middle ages. Europe had Black Saints and depicted Masa Musa in maps. The animosity was based around religion.
@@illiteratethug3305 Corrected, engrish is not my first language
This isn't set in put world of in medieval Britain...... So whats your point lol
@@13579hee What is Batman's Gotham City based off? A north-eastern american metropolis like Chicago or New York.
When you visit Gotham in fiction, you expect that city to behave similar to its real world counterpart.
Stray to far and the illusion breaks.
The world of GoT has already established, that it is our medieval past. With the addition of dragons and magic.
To those that miss the point, it being that we project our recent history on a world based on our millennia´s past. Our morals and views on matters of justice and race has dramatically changed since then.
The two MCs are white. Everyone revolves around them. Plenty of unidimensional white people.
What’s really annoying to me though is the primary thing you see in the relationship between black character and a white character is a trope you felt the need to make a video on. It undermines the value of the characters and story and turns that part of it into a manufactured issue very few people care to sour over.
So let me explain this real quick. The White Savior Complex is bull. White people (and sure black and Asians too) go to poor countries to help the people there. It's not always a hundred percent out of the good of their heart, but they do it nonetheless. Is it fair to make up terms like this for people who help other people? I think not, and I'm sure the poor people do neither.
Game of Thrones is a series created in the West. Most of the West's inhabitants are white. Of course Game of Thrones (and other TV series and movies) will make it about white people. Also, Westeros looks like Europe if you look at the weather and the landscape. Essos (at least the parts where Dany begins) looks more like the Middle East.
Not going to leave a dislike though
Let's just be grateful that the first seasons of GoT were made before identity politics and all that other crap became a thing otherwise we wouldn't even had these great (6) first seasons probably.
Of course a show where most if not all of the main characters and many of the side characters are white because it is in essence game of thrones of Britain (White people) is mostly about them and yeah its medieval setting so if your Queen or King is white it doesn't matter which Color your freaking skin has you follow their commands. It's kinda weird that some people have to make it about skin color when it's obvious it is not about that just the setting. If you want more settings where the main characters are from different cultures and skin color similar to our own worlds like African or Asian just for example I would agree those are great too.
So you can see how weird your point is for me if we reverse the story lets say all people in Westeros are black and its the black game of thrones and across the sea the people are white and get liberated from the now a black queen and so on, I wouldn't make a video about the Black Savior Complex and how the white former slaves who are now following here are underdeveloped and just follow the black queen (which they are completely loyal to which makes sense from their story) its how it is in that fictional world. I wonder if your main problem is about the setting where white people are the focus and you would rather have it the other way around?
I know it's uncomfortable to talk about race. However race is real. Race can add to the nuance of a story. What is discussed here would add nuance to a story.
I don't understand how complaining about undynamic characters is suddenly in poor taste. I don't understand how you've come to conclusion he thinks the story would be better if the roles were reversed. I don't know the word for what you're doing, but I'd guess it's similar in meaning to disingenuous.
There would be nothing wrong about pointing out how "In this story, the usual white saviour trope plays out in reverse, with a black saviour and white saved." In fact, it would be as equally valid a point to make as the one being made in this video, because the white saviour trope is a demonstration of lazy writing.
The irony here is your asserting that he's "caught up on race" whilst you are unable to look past race and see the value of his point.
Truly cringe. Truly, truly cringe.
@@KingCribble First of no it's not at all uncomfortable to talk about race. I don't think it in poor taste to talk about undynamic characters I just don't understand why he thinks their skin color is the reason? I am not disingenuous if you think that believe me I don't wanna waste my time like that.
Ah ok so you agree reverse would be the same so why is he pointing out their skin colors so much in this video its valid for that fantasy world like I said maybe you don't like the story but its not lazy writing if it makes sense that former slaves would follow their queen because she saved them and cares about them. I seriously never look from the prism of skin color in game of thrones so yes I look past race.
And about truly cringe comment you should never write in an insulting way if you wanna have a fruitful discussion even if it's over the internet I know it's easy here...
KingCribble Being fed up with constant talk of "race" isn't an indicator of being uncomfortable. And what do you mean by "race is real"? I'd wager most people know that theirs isn't the only ethnicity in existence
Good Lord just let the story be the story
Right? I couldn't care less if it were the other way around. Sure you can say I would if it were reality, but no, I really wouldn't.
Y'all in the comment section talking about human races...please, open your biology book. If you wanna be the overdramatic American social justice warrior at least know what you're talking about, or you'll end up being the lexical racist here 😇
Even better, don't be a social justice warrior. They always inadvertently wind up being the most narrow-minded, racist, intolerant, and bigoted person in the room.
@YezenIRL You are the ONLY GOT commentator who's been honest about GOT's race problem. I feel like an opportunity was missed to discuss the elephant in the room: DAENERYS TARGARYEN. Her character was the most problematic of the entire casting. Here's a common trope that we all should be familiar about: The white blond who is depicted as the White Jesus Savior comes to free all the slaves out of some *presumed* selflessness. Dany never "freed" the people because it was right; she did it so that when she "took her Throne" they'd support her claim. In fact, I think that so many of us in this society are brainwashed about white women and their presumed innocence and good will, that that's partly why people were so upset about what happened to Dany's character. People of all races simply cannot come to terms with a white savior who was pretending to be good so that she'd obtain selfish ends as a reality. If those same people who worship Dany would open their eyes and watch the series from Season 2, they'd see how she started to become arrogant and entitled. One minute she's charming, lovable--even funny. The next, she's barking about how she's *entitled* to the Throne because of her family name or because someone gave her three dragons. Without those dragons, she'd be nothing but a Targaryen just like Jon Snow. She warned about burning cities to the ground---same as Cersei--if she doesn't get what she wants or is **entitled to**. Anyway, this White Savior depiction of whites who save people of color is a common theme throughout literary and visual or cinematic history. I'm shocked---but I shouldn't be--that people simply cannot come to terms with this character and what she represents.
No Daenerys could have just left the slaves as they were and continued on the Westeros with her dragons she didn't need there support, but she choose to stay and overthrow the masters because she herself was a slave and couldn't stand by and do nothing. Also Game of Thrones has no "race problem" in Essos there are white people as well and there would be white slaves the only reason they all appear black or brown is because HBO filmed those scenes in Morocco.
100% agree. It's not about the books, more so about how this was portrayed IN THE SHOW. Point being, what the video is trying to say is 100% true to point out despite what the books have and haven't said. This isn't rare when it comes to TV shows and it's not a new trope. Definitely worth a watch and fair to point out.
I just subscribed to your channel and am a huge game of thrones fan, also I am a bi-racial man with a college degree with an emphasis on sociology and racial studies. I say all that to say that I loved this video and agree with you. I have come to terms with the representation of people of color in GOT as just seeing it as a fantasy show to be enjoyed for what it is. However, I do see the trope best friend and the white savior(ness) of the character Daenareys and I do hope that future stories (whether fantasy or not, particularly, the GOT planned prequels), will give more people of color agency and point of view. Thank you.
Thank you for the bravery involved in addressing this literary concept. It is complex & contoversial...but as human beings we owe it to ourselves to discuss how we frame ourselves in art...which does reflect life...past, present and possibly future life.
It's also weird how at the end of the show, the army of brown people led by a strong, independent woman is portrayed with Nazi iconography. Not sure what the showrunners were trying to tell us there...
Nope
I hate that the only two black characters were so underwritten in the show that they were basically just props. They also snipped the entire subplot of Dorne which is a million times more complicated and interesting in the books and just so happens to be about people of color (coincidence???).
@Jormangandur83 Maybe the intentional lack of effort put into POC characters and the exclusion of an entire subplot that revolves around POC should tell you something about a potential racial bias in hollywood. Racial exclusion is a valid criticism of film and if you can't accept that, you need to read some cultural analyses written by people of color. That being said, I and many people who feel the same way still like the show for what it is; one criticism doesn't represent someone's entire essence and such an assumption just tells me how lacking in empathy and self awareness someone truly is.
@@AnHeC The Korean Peninsula is populated over 99% by Koreans so that analogy doesn't work. Also it sounds like you're saying you really don't want to see people of color in film. That's the problem I'm talking about; brown people are intentionally excluded from film in diverse western cultures and Game of Thrones doesn't seem to be an exception to this phenomenon.
AnHeC no one wants tokenism bro. grey worm and missandei are perfect examples of tokens and thats what im criticizing. including people of color in film isnt bending over backwards. This fantasy world has a lot of brown characters with rich source material already. And the only ones here feeling insulted are you sensitive white people who are getting butthurt over poc speaking our minds. im sure you don’t realize this but you’re getting emotional over shit you’re making up.
No its not a coincidence, but its not based on race. Its just the fact that its very fucking hard to introduce new chracters and new storylines when the show already had to make major changes because of the limited time and resources. Also you need to keep the audience's interest, by having coherent, relatively linear story arcs compared to the book especially when you have 50 minutes and max 10 episodes per season.
This is why Winds of winter is so late because GRRM has to mash all of the A feast for crows and A dance with dragons, storylines in to one book -(for further information checkout *"How can The Winds of Winter fit into The Winds of Winter"*).
Also they completely missed out on Lady Stoneheart. And Aegon Targaryen and fucked up Stannis . Is the show racist against a zombie who had her son killed at her brother's wedding and against a pale, silver blonde people and religious honor obsessed people as well?
The show runner's had to decide on what storylines make the most sense. Did they do a bad job? Yes. But not on such arbitrary ideas such as race but on Creative and artistic ideas.
Soyboy Thank you. This is what we gotta point out because white ppl think just having us on screen is enough to mend the discrimination in film and literature as cultural facets.
Idk if you know, but Black people have been addressing the issue of race in Game of Thrones for years
Another well done video, thank you and i am happy that you invested in this conversation.There is no right way to feel about this, all you can do is be respectful of others ,who will see the world from there own unique perspective.
Man, there are a lot of people in the comments who think that because it's a fantasy novel all racism in the real world has no connection to it. Like, it wasn't written in the real world...by someone who grew up and lives in the real world...
I hate when people say white people shouldn't help black people. That's like saying straight people shouldn't help gay people.
GRRM actually explained it. They shot the scene in Morocco. Where would you get 10,000 white people there? And, Game of Thrones is an European based medieval fantasy. How many Black people were there in the 11th century Europe? Many woke Hollywood movies and dramas do that now-a-days (especially Netflix). This totally spoil the authenticity. What would happen if there is no Black people in a present day Baltimore or Detroit based movie/ drama? We wouldn't have The Wire; the best TV series ever made.
This is irrelevant. Both GRRM's novels and the HBO adaptation center around a white society and characters while using non white societies and peoples as peripheral elements to develop the white protagonists. However the non-white cultures / people (the Dothraki for example), do not receive comparable development. I'm not saying HBO needed to cast asian Tyrells, but this white centric dynamic is just the reality of what GRRM decided to write.
Netflix's "color blind" casting is a totally different issue.
@@yezenirl6331 Game of Thrones is mostly White because it is a Westeros based story. In the world of Ice & Fire, the east of Essos; mainly the east of the Mountain range (The Bones) represents Asia. In fact, the sea there is also named Jade sea. And, Sothoryos represents Africa. It was very hard in the medieval age to migrate. This is why there is nearly no Black people in Game of Thrones. If the story was based on Jogos Nhai or Sothoryos, there would be a lot more Asian or Black people and hardly any White people.
@@abhijeetkundu5453 I know all of this. I have a GoT UA-cam channel lol.
Why then if the story centered around fictional Europeans did he not simply limit his characters to White Europeans? Martin was not pressured to include non Whites but when he did they were either slaves or savages. In comparing the splendor and dignity of the European like civiliz2atiom he created, the people of color in his story to clearly not be as advanced or civilized to the extent that the differences between these two groups is distinct and exaggerated. Martin was under no obligating when adding non White characters to portray thrm this way it was a choice, a choice that he did not have to make as this was fiction. He could if he.wanted to to make the people of color in his story equals with the other cultures in Westeros again he chose not to. His writing was only limited by his imagination and his imagination when writing about people of color was limited to writing them as savages again this was a choice and one he didn't have to make. So not even in a fictional reality are non whites equal or dignified this was not something Martin nor the writers for game of thones were forced by any other mechanisms except choice.
@@adriaunderwood1416 In the books, Dothrakis are also white; at least mostly white like the Russians and East Europeans. In fact, GRRM didn't demean the Asians or Africans at all. He did exactly the opposite. According to The World of Ice & Fire, the civilization east of The Bones or the GOT version Asia is at least 100 thousand years older than any civilization in Essos and definitely Westeros. The Sothoryos civilization is so old that there is nothing known about them. In fact, the Sothoryos or the Africans in GOT world were so advanced that most mythological creatures in GOT are probably created by them.
.@YezenIRL, so essentially necessary you brought this up. I'm an educator, so no shock from me to say that when we do not discuss the 'controversial,' nothing changes, nothing evolves. Education comes from all around us (whether from a textbook or a TV show), and as a teacher, I find it always comes best from peers! And you always find the fresh perspective on these episodes. It's brilliant of you, and we're lucky you are doing it (please keep it up past the GoT series). As a white person who thought herself soooo progressive and woke, when the #BlackLivesMatter movement came about, I was awestruck by a 17 yr old black woman who set me straight very fast on all I had no ability, no experience, no perspective to understand, let alone claim 'woke-ness' ... a constant lesson that young people have a lot to say worth listening to. The problem is not we don't understand, it's that we don't know we don't understand. So, talk about it. As much as you can and want. You have a platform. Always be as brave as you are today. It will matter.
Get your hand out of my pocket
I'll keep this brief but thank you for this video and addressing the elephant in the room. Sure, this vid essay won't earn you any fans but discussions about race tend to leave others very uncomfortable which is evidence that we as a society still have a long path ahead of us. After your videos on both Bran and Jon Snow respectively you have earned another subscriber.
Wait this is what you consider the elephant in the room? Not the poor execution of the Mad Queen?
Elephant in the room? I'm what 'woke' people consider a person of color (instead of, you know, a person) and I can tell that every single one of my friends that watch this show and discuss it with me have never once mentioned race as remotely an issue. I'm talking about japanese, hawaiian, african, european, chinese, etc. There is no elephant in the room until someone starts claiming there is because it's a hot/trigger topic.
Hayate Yukimura absolutely. This is ridiculous. I’m sorry I even click to watch.
When I saw 'the slaves' my first thought was 'so this alternate universe had a trans-Atlantic slave trade too, interesting'.
Classical Slavery not Racial Slavery, still bad but largely colorblind. More comparable to the Slaver Societies of the Mediterranean and Near East during Antiquity.
Daenerys is the worst white savior I've ever seen, She is the perfect villain
what about the Martells from previous seasons? They had quite a bit of independence
What about them? They're still based on Europeans (Spain).
Maxwell's demon the actors are people of color
@@doinosor6405 Ellaria's actress is half-white and Oberyn's actor has Spanish ancestry, making him white. But that doesn't even matter because Dorne represents Spain/Portugal even though GRRM played up the Moorish influence on those countries. That makes Dorne based on European/white countries and cultures just like the rest of Westeros. The video is clearly talking about how non-white people in Essos (peoples east of Europe) are represented.
Maxwell's demon Italian Greek Spanish and Portuguese people to not magically become white because they share the same continent, like you can agree Indians are different from East Asians, so it seems like your definition of “white” doesn’t actually describe actual white people but rather anyone who participated in colonization
Maxwell's demon Dorne is based on Arabs mate
It would be good if you make it clear that the series is not the same as the book. Missande was described as being Asian in the books and Grey Worm was white with sandy blond hair and blue eyes. I think the problem here is more how they caste these important secondary character as well D&D did nothing to make the actress playing Dany look more like a Targaryen.
I suppose this ethnocentrism was inevitable given that 2 white script writers adapted the books of a white guy who based it of other books by a white guy (Tolkien) & the war of the roses - something that happened in western Europe but mainly Britain.
D&D are not white. They're Jewish, which is far more telling given the direction they've set Dany upon in the most recent episode.
@Soyboy They're not considered white, by whites, because the Ashkenazi Jews are mostly of Turkic origin, and thus mixed. They have a high degree of European admixture due to their more recent migration into Europe in the late middle ages, and thus look more white now, than they did before said migration. They're not considered white by ethnic Europeans because their origin is from a non European background, really isn't that complicated.
I am a huge fan of GOT, I am black and have always been very uncomfortable about about this. Thank you for the bravery and doing this analysis.
btc_real lmao it’s not bravery, he’s sticking up for the anti white status quo
Your a fan of something that makes you uncomfortable?
nÄks exactly.
International Fascists it’s not an anti anything. Stop being insecure, you sound pathetic.
nÄks you do know that GOT is fiction, right?? Well if you don’t, now you know. Does fiction influence real life?absolutely it does. It is the message the show send that is problematic.
Well while race is being mentioned, it should be noted that the first group of people to collectively abolish slavery as a society were Europeans & white Americans.
Your demographic displays itself heavily here......
But Dany is Valyrian. I think in this universe they are supposed to be a different race... so does this argument make sense?
That's the problem. We're trying to force cultural and ethnic ideas onto a fantasy world that *doesn't follow them.* So it doesn't work too well.
they are a different ethnicity. I don't think GoT necessarily recognizes races
jesus the tripe people will put out to try and instigate views...
@Cat Typing right. He has not made any of this up. They literally shot a scene of Dany being lifted in a sea of brown people. They filmed freed slaves calling her mother. They did utilize the only recurring black characters as pure sidekicks. None of this was invented.
This is so cringy.
This is a story mostly set in Europe-like world, thus the important characters are European looking. Missandei and Grey Worm are some of the least important pieces of background in the story and the show wasted a ton of air time building them up, because they put fan service and appeasing ridiculous social justice demands of millenials above good storytelling. Their complexity was not crucial to the story.
I would argue its more problematic to force brown and black representation in all media, simply because pity, by definition, isn't empowering. Westeros and Essos are not our world and frankly the only kindasorta racists I could think of are Dothraki (with their anti milkmen sentiments) and that's a stretch, cause we don't really know if they recognize race as a concept. Everything suggests that their identities are built around cultures and religions much more than skin colour and it doesn't show you in the best light if you can't separate your obsession with race from fantasy fiction.
Political correctness will be the nail in the coffin of culture. I would be more concerned with how nihilistic the show is much more than all the forced stupid controversies like "normalizing rape" or "white savior", especially since Valyrians (such as Dany) are inspired by mythical people of Alexandria, not freaking England or Spain. Maybe they could've cast Leslie Jones as Daenerys and make a season exclusively about Missandei? 🙄
I can't stop laughing at how you called his thoughtful and well articulated video cringey and then went on to post one of the most cringe worthy, thinly veiled racist babble posts EVER. First of all, you sound far too dumb to have read the books and I think you will be rather embarrassed when you learn more about GRRM as a writer and his world views. You don't even seem to have working knowledge of European history. Newsflash: the enlightenment and concepts of things like political structure, medicine, and hygiene/sanitation actually came into Europe from the Southern/Mediterranean regions upward--largely courtesy of the Moors. Before them, the "great" Romans and Greeks borrowed heavily from Egypt/Nubia. Your bizarre assumption that Medieval Europe would be completely devoid of non-White people is just... well, bizarre. Then there is the funny way that time works inside a racist's mind. What huge amount of time did the show devote to exploring Greyworm and Missandei. I am sure that if we totaled all of their speaking scenes up, it would come up to less than 30 minutes out of 73 hours of total series time. I think that time moves slower for bigots when you see non-white people in front of you. Then, of course, you ended like all trolls do when they can't make a coherent argument: by exaggerated what people have said. That was the whole casting Leslie Jones (interesting choice that only a raging racist would arrive at) and centering the show on Missandei. Nah, I think most people would have been fine with Greyworm and Missandei just getting some agency prior to S8Ep2. Not anything as drastic or silly as you made up for us.
0:40
Just realised that the Iron Islands are based on the Isle of Mann
Fucking dying here :D :D :D
Here are my issues with people in the comments:
1. For those who claim to view a character based only on the character - the character of a person comes from the circumstance in which they were raised in. The idea that race doesn't align with a character is actually rubbish, a person's race tends to be huge in determining their characterization. And the reasons for this are long and varied, (but some examples are their family's class and the history that led to that class, their community, the way they fit in within their community, the region they live in, reasons why their ancestors or themselves moved to that region, etc, etc.) It's a huge disservice to a character (and most English Professors would agree, (and if you don't like that fact, because of some liberal bias in colleges, you're too far gone for help)) to analyzing a character if you ignore their race. You're literally wrong with the idea that a character isn't just their race. It's the opposite, a character is their race and so much more, all combined into that, the character.
2. For those who said something along the lines of "Don't shoehorn race into your videos" - hey, this video title made it very clear that race would be a major talking point. If you felt uncomfortable about it, that's your issue, but no-one forced you to click on a video about race, and then complain that it discusses race. A part of me thinks that you only care because his ideas didn't fit the worldview you hold and that's why it's suddenly "shoehorning" but I digress.
3. For those who claim that Westeros is based off of Europe/George can write what he wants - Yes, you're right. A Song of Ice and Fire has three major motivations. The primary one is obviously, The Lord of the Rings, which the series is a response to. The second one is the War of the Roses, which is literally just European history. The third is the poem Ice and Fire by Robert Frost. (that had nothing to really do with the critique but I felt like people usually cherrypick one of those three when trying to make a point and looking at all three is probably important when trying to make grand claims about where Game of Thrones is going). Anyways, I assume people are focusing on the second, The War of Roses. The issues with this are a few-fold. One, Game of Thrones is a lot grander than the War of the Roses. In fact the War of the Five Kings has the most to do with the War of the Roses than literally anything else in the novel, and we are far from that point in the story now. Game of Thrones is steeped much more in the fantasy and medieval politics side thatn the European side, which hurts this idea that since it's bade on European history, it should be like European history. But even putting that point aside, Martin, by making Dany a literal liberator, was implying something about slavery. He spends far too much time on these books and saying that he wasn't would literally be an insult to him. When the topic of slavery is brought up, then the topic of race has to be talked about, since the largest slave economy in world history was focused around the idea of inferior races. The obvious idea is that the people who represent the liberated slaves are Greyworm and Missandei, because they are our only main characters, especially in the show, that were slaves. They are also the only main people of color left in the show. Their character arcs will help clarify whatever message George was trying to make. But that leads me to a very necessary tangent.
??? - This is Game of Thrones, not A Song of Ice and Fire - the depiction of characters in the show should primarily be analyzed in the context of the show. So it doesn't matter if in the books Missandei and Greyworm (M and G) were meant to look lighter. It wouldn't matter if in the books every character was black except for M and G. When analyzing the show you use what the show portrays to make your arguments.
3 (continued). So yes, while George can write about whatever he wants, his writings should not be free from critique just because he can write about what he wants, and if it turns out that the whole subplot of taking former slaves and just making them subservient to a person who wants to rule over them was just that with no caveats, I will criticize that. But aside from that, you're right, Westeros is based off of Europe, which is majority white, and George can write what he wants. But he/the show was the one who brought up such ideas, and both claim to be progressive forces, so completing failing in either is completely disappointing and deserves critique.
4. STOP OVER-ANALYZING THE SHOW - there is this idea in literary analysis that it doesn't matter what the author intended, if the ideas are there and there's enough evidence to discuss them, then it's worth discussing. It's fruitless to not over-analyze as the best points come from looking at more than surface level details. You do a disservice to all of literary discussion if you only point out the most obvious of things and neglect deeper searches. My source for this, taking multiple writing and history classes at a world renowned Ivy league institution. (I would note that over-analyzing doesn't even really exist,, and I'd use the term pointless analysis as a substitute, and that comes from making claims that have little to no evidence to be backed up and no relation to any relevant themes. I.e. claiming that The Walking Dead is a response to Treasure Island or something like that.)
5. Did you even watch the video? - The thing that gets me is that the video make didn't even say much in the video alone. The video can be very roughly summarized as - let's watch and see where the story goes but keep the idea of these literary tropes in our mind as we watch. Depending on how it's handled it can be good or bad. Many commentators seemingly watched a completely different video, because they have this idea that the video is saying the showrunners/Martin have completely ruined the depiction of people of color.
Anyways, those things really annoyed me. That's all, have a great day, and no personal hate for one-another. We all have different lives so let's just live them as peacefully as we can and not try to spread too much hate over the internet. I'll be here if anyone wants to discuss or disagree.
@@hazzer329 nice reading only the first point and then angrily typing a comment because it went against your worldview, but here is why I would say College Professors (they all aren't liberal but a large amount are because the more educated you are the more likely you tend to be left leaning): they're far more knowledgeable than any of us in the topic. The sheer amount of work it takes to get a PHD in anything is a shit ton, and most professors tend to have one. I never said they are the deciders on race, and I agree a character isn't their skin color, but they and I both agree that ignoring a person's race when analyzing their character usually results in a less thorough analysis (which isn't necessarily bad and can be good in many contexts, since it can bog down the point you're trying to make or isn't as vital to the analysis etc, but whether you like it or not race affects people and thus their character).
I pretty much agree with what you are saying here. The "mother" scene where the slaves lift Dany up has always given me cringy white savior vibes so I appreciated the storyline where Dany is shown to be an outsider in the places where the slaves were freed. I think visually having the one woman of color beheaded tells more story than the show perhaps intended. It's unfortunate that we still live in a world where people pretend there aren't people of color everywhere in every time period. I appreciate you sharing your perspective about this.
Your tropes have basis, sure, but to be fair, when it comes to slaver's bay and all that, G.R.R. Martin addressed this for book and show. They were slaves based on status/class, not by skin color in the books. However, in the show, he said it was filmed in Morocco, so of course the "extras" that came to be in the show were gonna be brown. It would not have been feasible to fly over a bunch of white people just to mix them into the extras cast so the slaves looked diverse.
Hey you're pretty spot on for the show, especially since they cut characters like Jalahbar xho and other brothers, but the books are a lot more nuanced in terms of identity. GRRM is an extremely egalitarian man. I think a lot of these criticisms against you aren't very well thought out. I'm neither white nor black too, i'm a Maori/European
Its a TV show. Don't bring stupidity into it. That's just wrong.
It's a TV show about politics, based on books by a hippie. Idk what to tell you.
@@yezenirl6331 it's about rich v poor. Not colour. Monarchy is not political
@@MsReallu Monarchy is a political system.
@@yezenirl6331 explain how a monarchy, where nobody has a right to rule, with no vote by the people make's it political. No one person has rights. I look forward to hearing this.
@@MsReallu www.britannica.com/topic/monarchy
Ugh, exhausting to watch - by far your worst video.
Total SJW madness. Word salad to cry about it. Let it go... let it go.
Really great analysis! I just wish the video was longer.
Well, because every white writer would be questioned why his main character is black. And portraying another race than your own (unless you're black person talking about white, suddenly) became issue within itself. This is why M&G are so one-dimensional, this is safer. Now, every flaw of black character would be multiplied by 100, and same goes for pros. How can you create main character that would be viewed so subjectively depending on the viewer's race and background? You can't. Hope the same won't apply to gender, but unfortunately when I see how bad people reacted on Dany's turn, I'm afraid women can only be "good" characters from now on. Or cocky-evil. Tragic hero? 5 years from now folks won't be able to stand it. And that's the real issue.
It sounds like the prequel being worked on will be more ethnically diverse and center more on female characters
The reason why all the slaves were brown was because they were filming in morocco
Moroccans don’t consider themselves brown do they?
If you look at the situation a little more deeply, you will find all the reasons to these issues in the books and learning how the show was made. There aren't any white people in slavers bay since it was shot in morocco and GRRM said it himself that it isn't pratical to fly possibly 100s of white people just to be extras. Also, I saw where most of your points were coming from except for the one about how Dany only uses her followers for her own goals not that of her people's. The problem is every other ruler in the entire show does the same thing to certain extents. The perfect example being Cersi. She gives no sh*ts about her people.
Most people cant look beyond whats on the screen
I also notice the use of the word "problematic" when making racial arguments.
Its easy to say that when you aren't in others shoes
@@TXejas19 i am... but for some reason it doesn't affect me... the character of Dany could've been any color, wouldnt change the character, its only when the show decides to use thier color to make any statement, it changes, Mel made a few statements, but the story wasnt about that... so why'd they throw it in? Because people identify with parts of the story more different than others and look for the part that relates to themselves and the writers for some reason felt they had to emphasize the point... when they didnt have to. Things are waaaaaaay better than they have been and the way rasicm works, is the more you look for it when its not there, you will eventually find it... not that it doesnt exist.... but when it doesnt, and you look for it, you will find it
Thank you for this assesment I just started watching GOT so I was late to this discussion. Your assessment also touches on the hypersensitivity surrounding any criticisms blacks have about taking the roles assigned them and calling them ingrates when they express how these tropes rob them of self determination a fundamental human right. My problem with the writing was that simulated hollywood violence against people of color grooms audiences including blacks to accept violence and deprivations of self determination as if slated punishments in film are normal and necessary. I would also like to add the mammy trope to your list. Missandi was not only returned to chains but was beheaded. Her character was punished severely as if this was the writers reward for her characters faithful mamying of Dannys character. I felt as though Dannys excuse for her sub pychotic rage was more about her being deprived not of her friend but of her property. If you remember the protests and anger centering the George Floyd protest much of the conservative anger expressed was not over the murder of a man but the property loss during the protest. Violence against Blacks in the south by the KKK also centered around anger that the civil was deprived White slave owners of human black property. This translated into anger. Children women and men young amd old were subject to horrific White violence. Misandri also instructing Danny to burn with fire her murderers and the subsequent mass murder Danny comits hints at another troupe about White women that they are mentally unstable and never responsible when they are violent because they feel too much and we are not able to really have a rational discussion when White women and men comitt mass murder. Punishing black characters to excuse white violence was socially irresponsible in an age where we see cause and effect and writers in Hollywood have too much information on race not to know better. Thank you again, Americans tend to gaslight one another around conversations about racism, so it helps when others write there assessments exposing the tropes.