When NOT to Get a Building Permit
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2024
- Do you need a building permit?...maybe. In the long run, it could be to your benefit. Final
inspection of the Spec House here: • Getting a Final Inspec...
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In 40 years of contracting, I was involved in 2 legal actions with clients. Both times I had the testimony of inspectors to back up my work. Both times I prevailed. When you're playing by the rules, it's harder for dishonest clients to take advantage of you.
We contract in Southern California.. We pull permits for everything to avoid litigation. However like you, we have been in 2 legal actions against us. And just like you, both were permitted and shown to be proper. In both cases they were dismissed. I have been in the trades since 1980 and have contracted since 1992.
As soon as people will see an oportunity in their favor, they will try to grab it. It may be clients, but sadly it may sometimes be the contractors as well. But there seems to be a good rule of thumb to try sort those out. (Sadly it does not work universally to 100 %). Work done the proper way by a honest contractor is something that may take a little more time, effort, qualification etc. to ensure it is done properly, which comes at a cost. If the price is too good to be true, well, you may get what you pay for and it may lack what you saved.
Of course at both ends, there may be a young guy just starting his business trying to build a customer base with lower prices, while being honest and doing all in his capability to get it done right (And I think there is no shame for anyone to decline certain jobs or parts of jobs because of a lack of expertise, instead of delivering inproper execution), while at the other end, a big contractor asking quite high prices might scam you as well and cut corners wherever possible. But they seem to forget, it never pays to damage your reputation.
Imagine how nice it would be if there was a market of independent, non-governmental inspections, that weren't as subject to the corruption and laziness inevitable in systems backed up with force.
"When you're playing by the rules, it's harder for dishonest clients to take advantage of you." words I will keep in my pocket.
@@dustinabc LOL what. You know what happens when you let that happen? You get doors flying off of planes mid flight and landing gear falling off after takeoff because regulations, and therefore inspections, have become lax all in the name of maximum profits. The "market" only cares about maximum profit with minimal overhead and oversight. Get real.
As a home owner, I took on replacing the sidewalk myself.
In the pre pour inspection, the inspector strung a line across the form and measured the depth.
As he went along, he said "take out a quarter inch here...an eight here... a quarter here".
I was following behind, scooping out dirt, when he turned and said, "dont do that, you could throw that back in after I leave. Get rid of it. I'll wait."
So I put it in a wheel barrow and spread it out along the foundation of the house.
As he signed off on the pre-pour inspection I told him he better wait here until I pour, because I had a truck load of sand that I was going to dump in the forms.
He sat at the curb for nearly an hour until the concrete truck arrived!
Well of course, he's getting paid the same tax dollars either way. Might as well enjoy the day :P
It would be interesting to know where that happened. In my city, the building inspectors are so busy, it's unbelievable how fast they go through inspections. But the city has doubled in population this century, and they have a lot to inspect.
I poured a 40 x 40 ft concrete pad with re bar reinforcements and through foundation plumbing reliefs, nobody inspected it except me, my sons and the concrete guy that was helping us. 3 years later it is still flat, not falling apart and doing is job
Inspections for Right of Way work are a whole different ballgame. Thats city property and the city engineer will want it done per their standards and specifications. Its their ass on he line if it doesn’t get done right. You also run into ADA.
Imagine a homeowner repaves a crooked and sloped sidewalk along a major street. Pedestrian trips or falls, ends up on CNN, then you’re looking at a 6 figure lawsuit against the homeowner for “taking responsibility” but not actually following legally mandated specifications. There goes your house and life savings.
The contractor i worked for, never skipped a beat from commercial to residential in 2009.
We worked for the richest people in our city. Names recognized world wide.
They didnt want a property tax increase, we never pulled permits.
The city inspectors never flagged us.
They dont mess with their tax base.
Spot on!
Old man now, but 35 years ago I bought raw land in the Sierra, built my own home by myself, no help at all, been off the grid ever since.
Never had an issue with the county, even the tax collector measured, said that's it, you'll never hear from us again.
It all depends on the county, your proximity to towns and cities, so if you're far enough out, Govt will leave you alone.
Bear in mind that even though a county inspector signs off on the permit, the county assumes no liability for their having done so.
It is also impossible to sue a city official.
Both of these vary by locality
Hell, I've even seen where inspections were signed off as done and work was "to code" that upon moving in I had to tear up my basement floor because the roughed in plumbing was found to not be to code.
So I've come to believe, that permit's are just a way for the gov't to know what you're doing and when to raise your taxes. It is wrong to paint all systems with 1brush, but if items are found to be code then two weeks later found to be not compliant after inspection then the inspection was worthless meaning the cost of the permit worthless.
It's better to A) find out where and to what standards permit inspections are supposed to be done to, and then B) make damn sure you read items have some sort of understanding and C) hire someone reputable ask ??'s get the contract to spell out details.
Almost as if there's absolutely no reason we should have to get a building permit from them.
Whenever the government claims "health and safety concerns" it's almost always bullshit.
Yup I'd say it's primarily that they want to know what you're doing and what taxable improvements you're making. Safety is an aspect but I don't get the sense that it's the primary motivation.
In 2003 I had an inspection for a 2-car garage I was building behind my house. The building inspector saw that I used metal rafter ties, nodded, and said, "Rafter ties, eh? Carry on." He knew that I knew what I was doing. I told him I was planning a large deck on the back of the house and would be in to see him the following week for a permit. He said, "You don't need a permit. Just build it."
Now we need a talk on dealing with an unreasonable inspector. I worked in a profession that required regular inspections and regularly engaged those inspectors help in getting things done that the owners didn't want to spend money on. So, I am inclined to like inspectors. However, on a home project I had one walk in the door that just wanted to throw his weight around. He was pissed because the ladder hadn't been put up for him, and when he came back when we got a ladder, he didn't want to go up on it because he didn't like where it was. The only reason he eventually went up was because I went up ahead of him,,,, and I'm a 70-year-old woman. I stood there with my hand out at the end and made him shake it, but, boy, did I want to spit in his eye instead.
I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s a huge problem in the inspection community and it really puts contractors in a difficult position, not wanting to aggrieve an inspector that you will have to deal with in the future. There are many subtle ways that they can retaliate against you that is not illegal. For instance, say the policy is that you are required to give 72 hours notice for an electrical rough in inspection, there will be times that you really need it sooner than that and most inspectors would gladly accommodate you. Trust me, the inspector you griped about will have you waiting the full amount of time on every single job in the future.
Over the years I only had one inspector with a snarky attitude. I sensed he didn't appreciate my calm, matter-of-fact responses as he threw his weight around. More than happy a different inspector with a more professional attitude came by for the final inspection (it passed).
The first project that I did in Phoenix AZ was a 750 sq. ft. garage. The owner was able to draw his own permit and do his own work, subject to inspection, if a permit was drawn. I advised him to get a permit, as the garage could legally be 3 ft. from the neighbors side yard. I said that there was a good possibility that the neighbor might not like that. As soon as the waals went up, the neighbor called the city; an inspector arrived, saw the permit in the window, looked the job over, and we were good to go! Lesson learned!
I installed gas metal pipe in my crawlspace with a permit and as a homeowner. I was really proud of my work. I was disappointed when the inspector didn't want to crawl under the house and see my work. All he wanted to check was that it held pressure from the gauge on the outside. Anyhow, I got the final and natural gas turned on.
You have a wonderful way of explaining both sides of an argument in a level-headed and objective way.
Just gotta say the lighting and framing of this shot is perfect, look out Hollywood
He is a professional craftsman. His mind is good at planning and his hands can sculpt anything into a first class product
Agreed - I thought the same thing !
Hey I noticed the same thing too!
Vito corleone level of quality.
@@callmeishmael7452 Truly. So many educational channels are leaning towards making their "set" interesting instead of authentic. Ultimately it is the knowledge presented which is most important ~ which EC has been nailing for years. Still, I can't help but admire how naturally crisp this particular shot lines up it caught me off guard.
@essential craftsman - I am an insurance adjuster. I’ll weigh in on your first question about insurance coverage. If a “contractor” makes mistakes on a job which later result in a loss such as a fire, then yes, the contractor may be held accountable in the end. However, the insurance loss would likely still be covered. The insurance company would later pursue the contractor or his liability insurance (if they have any).
In contrast, if a homeowner does the work, and that work is sub-par or generally incorrect, that alone likely won’t exclude coverage for the ensuing damages, such as a fire. And the insurance company can’t pursue their own insured (client/customer).
However, all policies have exclusions related to poor workmanship, renovation, or neglect. Those exclusions apply directly to the work being done. Meaning the insurance company wont correct a bad wiring job, bad flooring install, bad roofing job, etc.. It doesn’t matter who does the work, if it’s done poorly, then the homeowner or the contractor have to bare the expense to correct it. But if that poor work later results in a claim, they may cover the ensuing damages.
Here in Nova Scotia, you need a building permit to get a building permit if that sums it up.
Just like Manitoba. Where I live, you need a permit to move a shed onto your 3 acre wooded lot.
@@DrewJacobson61 Bro I have seen some of the shortiest work done in Manitoba ? what are you talking about ? It's funny how the native don't say anything about the overreaching of the government but you white people complain nonstop
@DrewJacobson61 What a shame. Outside of Winnipeg, Manitoba has a the population density of Mongolia.
Canadian govt needs to be reigned in. Big brother is not our friend.
Yup..I'm in Ontario.. I need permission from the local conservation authority to tear down and rebuild my garage, THEN apply for a city permit, all because farmers flooded the downtown 59 years ago by opening dams and now it's considered all a floodplain, literally a 120 year old house and a garage built to hold a model t.
@@OntarioBearHunter And then there’s a buddy of mine who is building $1 million plus cottage on a lake in Ontario. In his region the land is considered to be unorganized. So absolutely zero permits are required! Go figure right?
Most inspectors I have had to deal with, or seen my father deal with, are decent folk - it is the a-hole ones that give the rest of them bad reputations - one time the inspector red tagged the vent motor in the kitchen and while he was walking through the rest of the house I fixed the problem - took longer to go get my tools than it did to fix what he flagged - but the man refused to look at it again, refused to the point where he issued a thinly veiled threat to walk away and not come back - the only recourse was to have a failed inspection that delayed the finishing of the house UNTIL we could get him to come back and redo the kitchen inspection - it took 2 weeks to get back on his schedule - that is the kind of inspector that people hate.
Where I have done work for many years if you get a red tag you have buy another permit to get a re-inspection. It is a money thing. If you want to challenge an inspector you have go to the state capital .
One of the reasons I like your channel, level headed, informed, common sense, wisdom being shared 👍
I have finished two basements and moved walls around our master bedroom/bath in my own home and all 3 times I pulled a permit for the very reasons outlined here. I did extensive research on building codes (both local and national) to ensure I did the framing, plumbing, and electrical properly and I learned so much in the process. Each time, it cost a little more than a $100 and the city engineer at city hall was very helpful in providing feedback and other things I may have overlooked such as additional outlets, GFCI or smoke/CO detectors. The city inspector was very helpful as well and gave me the peace of mind that I did things as they should be.
Well, that's refreshing to hear, and I don't mean that flippantly. It's nice that you received something of real value in return for your tax money and the fees you paid.
I know I sound cynical, but it's true - I have a very low opinion of govt services (of all varieties) so it's nice to hear something positive every once in a while.
Nice to hear that you had a good experience permitting work. My neighbor spent close to $35,000 in permits and plans to build his shop. Permitting fees are outrageous here in Southern California. Another friend building a 1,200 sqft cottage for his parents on the property, $60k in permits and plans before breaking ground.
I've pulled permits a couple of times, and did my research (it's easy to be unaware of what you don't know!) and it was a pretty good process. Not cheap, but not expensive. I participated in a radio show years ago with a rep from the insurance industry and they said that if damage such as a fire is caused by something the homeowner did wrong AND it wasn't permitted/inspected, they would likely not cover the damage or liability. If the job was properly permitted and inspected, they would accept liability and pay for damages even if the homeowner or contractor did something wrong.
@@InspiredCraftsmanthese permit fees have no basis in reality! There is no way to justify those costs, other than “what are you going to do about it?”
@@benz-share9058
"if damage such as a fire is caused by something the homeowner did wrong AND it wasn't permitted/inspected, they would likely not cover the damage"
Statements like this are all over the internet from internet "experts". And yet, there is not one verifiable story of an insurance company denying a claim from a homeowner because unpermitted work was the cause of the incident on which a claim was made.
In my day, we had urban myths that promulgated themselves by being verbally repeated. Sometimes carried in periodical publications.
Today, we have the internet spreading misinformation of every imaginable sort. Because, on the internet, everyone's an expert. Just ask them.
Small contractor here . I have witnessed countless inspections . I have never seen an electrical inspection done where the inspector checked any connections , be they at panel , switches , or fixtures for tightness . Theyre usually concerned with fire caulking .
As a homeowner and the one electrical inspection I had done for finishing the basement, the inspector checked all the switches, outlets and the panel. Granted I was doing the work myself and not hiring a licensed electrician - so it may have been different if I did hire it out.
@@mjdamato Did he check every screw and wire nut for tightness ?
At least there’s a record of inspection. When something goes wrong you can claim insurance and the inspector would be in trouble.
I built my own home and the inspector for the final where the actual electric is hooked up just checked outlets and made sure that things that were supposed to be GFCI/AFCI, where needed and basic safety things like that. Otherwise for the framing inspection they just glanced at the electrical and made sure it looked tidy.
@@jimyeats Exactly . So a semi loose connection at an outlet might not show at final . As for framing , dont get me started .
I love the quote "Rules and policies are for the strict adherence of fools, and the guidance of wise men." I will definitely take that to heart. I always love your advice. You are definitely a role model for me and my career path. Thank you Scott.
So succinctly said, in a way men were once prone to do.
Where I live, you technically need a permit for everything. I have done many jobs both with and without “permission” (we PEMIT you to continue).
Brings to mind a garage I built. The call for final inspection brought a guy with a clipboard. He walked around the outside, occasionally glancing at the garage, but mostly at his phone. He step A FOOT through the entry door and turned on the light switch. He shut the light back off and closed the door. Signed the final, and said “looks good”.
That told me they are interested in fees and fines, not safety and quality.
Once I found out the punishment for lack of permit was double the fee ($350 for smaller projects where I am), I never pull one for my own projects.
I advise customers of “the rules” and let them decide their own choice in their projects.
They can’t make you pull permits for items that are outside IBC code. There has to be a standardization for the work being done. Otherwise they have nothing to base their inspection on. So I’m not sure why you pull permits on everything you do but…. Thats your business.
You must be in Cherokee County Georgia
My brother and I couldn't build a very complicated flight of stairs without violating code, so we enlisted the help of a building inspector. He couldn't see a way out either, and authorized us to proceed while violating six, albeit minor, building codes,
What were the constraints?
Time and money?
It was an ell, and as I recall, headroom, landing size, rise/run/width of bottom two steps.@@suspicionofdeceit
This is a common misconception! A building inspector has no statutory authority to waive code requirements and possibly puts you in a position where it comes back to bite you. There is a well defined procedure, where a board of appeals, considers the circumstances and then can grant a variance, thereby documenting the entire matter.
Boy! Did we luck out!@@djcip1
Before embarking on a large 2-storey addition project, I spent a useful evening attending a presentation made by an older city inspector to an audience of regular Joe Citizens. He made many of the points you do. The most memorable part of his presentation, and the part he clearly liked giving best, was the *extensive* photo presentation of utterly discombobulated messes he encountered over the decades. If there was no zoning, permitting and inspection system, the crap that people would build would be *everywhere*. I'll bet Boeing is wishing right now it paid a bit more than lip service to the idea of having work properly inspected.
more like the Union screwed some stuff up.
Amen re: Boeing!
Here in Germany you either need a permit, or you don't. If you don't need one you also won't get one even if you asked for it. But if you asked first in a reasonable way you get any help from the building department at your local county (in German = Kreis) without any cost. On my first house I needed a permit for a carport. I went to the office talked with them and they directed me into the correct way to construct and dimension the posts and everything. I did the construction made a drawing and then I got my permit. About almpst 20 years later on the next house I wanted to add a carport. Since the requirments of when you need a permit had changed in the time between again I called the office and asked if I need a permit when I add a carport to the house. They said yes. I didn't answered directly, and the clerk said "You heard different:" I said "Yes, but I want to make sure." He told me that I had said I wanted to add a carport, which meant it is connected to the house. This influences the static of the house and hence I need a permit. If I build a carport beside the house, and even if it is just 3/4 of an inch I won't need a permit. He also told me that I have the right to have two coverd places for cars at my house. One place is calculated at being 5 meter long. Since my garage is 9.5 meter long it only counts as one space, even if I easly can park two cars in it (well, if I clear all the other stuff in the garage). So I was free to build me a new carport. Only thing I had to do to check about the location of the gas, water and sewage lines, which I did with the help of the company that provides this services. Also without any costs.
Main thing is ask first before you start building.
I actually thought you might have tougher restrictions in Germany. That's nice to hear that they are helpful!
@@rickruddSome things are for sure tough here in Germany. There are also differences in the diffferent parts of Germany. Some things are free here, but not somewhere else. So it is important to ask before you build anything. But in my case the building department was very supportive with their help. This also depends on how you ask. If you appear like a Karen or Kevin things might get tough fast. Also our service provider for gas and water did help fast. I called to ask, and he fixed a time to come out to my property bringing a copy of the relevant plan for me which showed where the lines are located and asked about my plans and what and where exactly I wanted to build. Then he gave me the required distances I had to keep and that was about it.
Main point always was I asked before I did build anything. It is much easier for anyone if you check first instead of being forced to change anything build to close to a line later.
About a long process to get a permit: for my first house we got the plans from the building company and their architect, then we went to our village mayor, who told us about the kindergarten the village was about to build, then he stamped and approved our plan. Then my wife went to the "Amt" (a group of villages together with an office) on way to her workplace. Here she showed the plans, and they stamped and approved it on the spot. Finally we did send the plans to the "Kreis" (something like a county). Here it took longer. A few weeks later we heard from a friend who worked in another department at the "Kreis" that we should ask about our permit because the clerk who is in charge of our village was on sick leave. They told us, yes the clerk is seriously ill, and in about two month another clerk will be transfered from elsewhere and when he is placed he will look into it.....
We told this to our village mayor who then went to the office and all at once there were no problem to check our plans and a week later we got them stamped and approved....
Nice reading that. Although I am in Germany, I always thought getting these kinds of permits is difficult here. I am still young and have not built anything yet that required a permit.
From your name and avatar I assume you were born in 1960. I was born in 1996 and with prices getting higher and higher, I don't see myself being able to afford land or real estate in the near future. Also doesn't help that I live near Hamburg which is expensive territory 200km around the city. I just had this discussion yesterday with a good friend drinking beer in a bar: In a city like Hamburg, housing is expensive. But in a city like Hamburg there are many places to work for. If you could work remotely, this would not be a problem. You could live where it's cheap and still work at a good job in the city. But I'm an industrial mechanic, so there ain't no "home office" for me.
And maybe there is a second facett to this: People who need to live near their workplace to be able to attend it are often not the best paid. While people with better paying jobs often don't need to physically attend their place of work because working remotly is an option. But even if you were able to work remotely, most people still don't want to live far away from the city. So prices around the city are high all the time. I would love to have a place without neighbours and far off the next road. But no chance of getting that near Hamburg. Cheers
@@28thAttempt You assume right. I'm born in 1960 and there is even no one older from 1960 then me... ;-)
My son is born in 1998....
I also live near Hamburg, but I was lucky that my wife and I could build our house at her parents property in our village which was big enough to create two propertys from it. About the option to find a good place outside from Hamburg it depends how far you are willing to go. For me it is about 45 minutes to the subway Horner Rennbahn. That's close enough to the city, but so far away from the A24 that I only hear the traffic if we are getting heavy rain from the south.
I worked for 45 years also as a "Werkzeugmacher" and for the last 30 years I was coating tools in titanium. (you know those golden drillbits, hobs and tabs). The company is in a city between our place and Hamburg.
@@ulie1960 Then you maybe have worked for Fette? Just a guess.
Thanks for the reply.
Nice getting in contact in the comment section of Essential Craftsman. My dad was born in 1961 and we both enjoy watching this channel together.
Cheers
Another reason why people may not get a permit is that if the work is extensive enough, it could trigger a reassessment, and that could mean higher property taxes.
So basically they are choosing to commit a felony. Tax evasion, even of property taxes, is felony in most states. Not a very good reason.
Happened to my neighbor. Built a shop (permitted), property taxes went from $3,200 to almost $9k a year. They had been protected by prop 13 until the improvements to the property.
@@_urbanmonkthe real crime is the county charging you more tax for improving your house.
@@_urbanmonk found the democrat
@@_urbanmonk The real felony is gov't theft from hard-working citizens. Don't think the gov't is ever on your side. You are a slave like everyone else.
I used to have a Master Chief who would say something very similar to your sign off statement. He would say "guys, you got to know the rules, so that you know when it makes sense to break them."
Translated...know your tactics, so that you know when it's time to deviate from them...
I say the same thing teaching music theory, “you have got to learn the rules so you know what you’re doing when you break them, don’t break rules by accident or ignorance”.
This is the most fair and balanced approach to building codes and permits I've seen yet. It really is all about counting the costs.
There is a lot of wisdom, and even humility, in this video. Thank you.
I like the balanced thoughts and reasoning about building permits or not. What one county in California did was for the longest time require cast iron drain pipes and would not permit ABS plastic pipes, even through the plastic drain pipes are easier to install and perhaps last longer. It was later revealed that the pipe-fitter's union had a hand in that building code requirement. It was that way for a ridiculous number of decades, but not that long ago, those ABS plastic pipes were allowed and it saved me a ton of money in labor... and yes, I got the work permitted and inspected. Thank you very much for your thoughtful insights... I just subscribed to your channel.
I am an owner builder, building for the first time with no prior experience in Jackson County, Oregon. My inspectors have been invaluable and always helpful. They love questions and appreciate when I look up the code book first attempting to make sense of it myself. When I cant figure it out and tried my best they are there to bring their interpretation and get me to the next step. I am 2 years into this build and I am confident it is a strong home that will last. Could not have done this, without my county inspectors.
I really enjoy your channel / pod casts.
Blessings, brother.
Shalom.
Back around 1990 I decided that my mothers deck needed replacing. Wasn’t a large deck, but was old enough. I found a contractor to do the work, but the neighbor (who I thought was a friend of my parents) called the county about us for not having a building permit. The inspector was a jerk and a little flakey. He said he couldn’t make a certain decision without talking to his supervisor, so I called his supervisor who said the inspector had full authority and I called the inspector back and told him so, and I never heard from him again. At the time I was administering road construction contracts and my experience helped get rid of the building inspector. To resurface an existing deck did Not need a building permit.
I put a new roof on my house around the same time over an existing almost flat roof that gave me an attic you could stand up in. Only time I saw the building inspector was when I had to call him to come inspect the work when it was completed. He looked bored and uninterested in looking at the project. Didn’t set well with me.
That has been my experience with the inspection and permitting....all they want is your money...99% of them have no clue what you are doing, or what they are looking at.
I just call and have someone come out and check the boxes once I get the job done....the hell with their bullshit permits and inspections....they aren't the ones paying the bills, nor are they gonna be standing with you if something actually goes wrong...once they got your money they're gone.
When building my house. I received great advice from the county building inspectors. Thanks for your advice.
In my area, after the final inspection they send out the county adjustors to increase your taxes.
They definitely do that....they also drag their feet awfully slow when it comes to a reassessment after a structure has been removed that was being taxed...but they'll sure show up the same day you build that structure to raise your taxes LOL.
We were taxed for materials on site at the end of December!
They did that to me for just planting a few bushes in my front yard.
Thank you, brother! Very good guidance in deciding about permits, and so much more wise advice too.
A well balanced approach. Excellent.
Very well said. I can think of nothing to add or subtract from your summary.
I was on a job where the inspector refused to acknowledge the Plumbing Code was updated and we had to fight town hall to let us use Pex tubing for Radiant Heating. That happen again in the same town when we used Ward Flex for the gas on a different job. It was basically one town with three inspectors doing inspections on things they've never done as a job. Meaning that the Electrical inspector was also the pluming inspector and never did plumbing or electrical work in his life. I've also seen towns where all the inspectors are friends from the Fire Department. I personally had an inspector change the full inspection to a partial inspection because I had found a gas leak and was in the middle of fixing it when he walked in.
This kind of thing happens all the time. Building inspectors are hired and told to start doing inspections with zero training. The requirements for being an inspector should be minimum 10 years in field of what you are inspecting.. I've got an inspector who thinks he trumps engineers and I continue to have to go to the building official and threaten to sue..
All I can tell you on this is that you should always check which code and what version has been adopted by the state/locality. For example IPC vs UPC. The inspector has to use the code that has been adopted by the authority so...
@@cpoppyfin6751I find the issue is not which code but how it is interpreted...I've taken arguments all the way to the state and won. Where I'm at the building department can't keep their inspectors because the pay is so low, so about every year we have a brand new never built anything, brand new to the trades person telling me with 30 plus years experience who has runs jobs up to 80mil dollars and is a board of director at the local exchange how it's supposed to be...
Excellent presentation. I seriously rank you right up there with Socates in both knowledge and wisdom.
Thanks for all you do.
Thanks. I may have needed to see this. Just started a remodel
I really like your videos man you remind me of so many good decent men I've had the pleasure of working for and with. I really value your knowledge
The Amount of wisdom from this guy is amazing.
I know right! I lost my dad when I was young. I come here for advice I would have gotten from pops.
You are like the father I never had with these videos, and I appreciate that very much.
I've been doing residential, commercial and industrial electrical work for 20 years. I've never minded another set of eyes on the work I do. We are all human and can miss things.
That is as long as the 2nd set of eyes actually know what they're looking at and knows what they're doing....so many inspectors have no clue about anything they're supposed to be checking...that's what the biggest problem with inspections and permits are...cool you spent a bunch of money doing all that but when those people show up to look at it they don't have any idea what they are looking at in the first place. Apparently anyone can be an inspector without any sort of knowledge of the industry.
Thank you for all your hardwork and wisdom.
Very nice unbiased and reasonable video sir. By and large I have had few big problems with inspectors but there have been some power tripping and/or ignorant ones over the years. I find if you leave a glaring mistake for them to find they don't nit pick you to death and you stroke their ego by saying something to the effect of "Oh I'm glad you noticed that, I will show this to my helper so we all learn something". Frustrating when things are signed off on but are not right though. Inspections are to protect the financially involved parties that are not directly doing the work. (Insurance, bank, and most importantly future owners) Be skeptical of the inspector that says "Well I like to see it done this way or that way and don't back it up with code". I generally don't say much to inspectors until what they want is a reduction in the quality of my work. Sometimes inspectors have argued points contrary to the laws of physics ( I'm and excavator) and that makes for a tenuous discussion. I really like your thoughts on dealing with the unreasonable or ignorant inspector.
In Victoria BC (where I live) there are 13 municipalities in probably a 30 mile radius of the down town. Every single one has a different set of specific requirements for what requires building permit and also what one needs to apply for one. I don’t know but I would guess that about 40% of the renovation work that happens on residential Holmes is un permitted. If you make the barrier to obtain a permit too high and too expensive people just aren’t going to get them.
For context I’m a carpenter that works in residential renovations
I'm in Colorado which has 'home rule': I'd never want to be a contractor here because in the Denver area all you need to do is cross a street and you're in Lakewood or Arvada or Wheat Ridge or Golden - and require separate licenses from their city hall. Bloody individualism! And they all follow different code years!
So good. This is put together so well, especially that last line.
Had HVAC uppgrade recently with permits... Electrical inspector opened panel to check new circuits... The 240v runs to both the backup furnace and the heat pump fell out of breakers when tugged.... Solid install, minus that...
Keep up the good work I found this to be very informative.
One day I hope I have as much wisdom as you sir ❤ thanks for the great video
Thank you for the chat. A lot of good thoughts, not all related to building.
Here in Honolulu building permits can run 18 months between application and approval. Needless to say, inspectors have also recently been arrested...
And then people ask, why the housing is so expensive? It's one of the reasons.
That's because democrats run that corrupt state. That time frame speaks volumes of their BS ways.
Wonderful presentation, thank you for sharing.
I should have some of my clients listen to this as many don't fully understand the potential problems for when things go wrong and are done without permits, unlicensed contractors, etc. Thank you as always for sharing:)
Thanks always for your Wisdom!!
New subscriber here. He seems like he has a wealth of knowledge. I love his style of explaining things
Another timely chat. More often than not, when I watch your videos it feels like you and I could sit down and compare notes o er a cup of coffee, and we'd realize we are cut from the same cloth. I'm a half of the country away, but would love to have that opportunity some day. Keep up the good work!
Sound, reasonable advice. 👍
Wisdom. Thank you
As a 25 year insurance attorney I would put more emphasis on the insurance side of this. If you add an addition of some kind and a
Permit is technically required and not obtained, a carrier can and will use any excuse to get out of a large loss. They have two ways of doing it. One is asserting the cause of the loss arose from the addition. The other however is more insidious. A carrier can argue that had they been told about the addition, a different premium would have been charged (or perhaps no coverage would have been offered because perhaps no permit was issued), the carrier in most states can void the policy “ab initio” (from its inception) and simply return your premium and not pay the claim. You emphasized this to some extent but this is a VERY dangerous game to play, depending on your carrier and your state.
I've heard similar from an insurance industry rep.
Yep, ab initio is super convenient for the insurance company when they can blame all on the customer and ‘postmortem underwriting’ when they were just too lazy/greedy up front. They collect their premium and things go south … “oh, it appears you didn’t tell us (weren’t asked) ________ in your application, so here’s your premium back. Good luck.”
Thanks for sharing from your legal perspective. Very good to know. I always pull permits even for small projects because I know insurance companies can get guys like you to get them out of paying (more or less legitimately) and I don't want to make it easy for them.
I completed a major renovation and addition to my house and I spoke with the insurance company specifically about raising the value and completed an extensive report on the new condition of the house just for this reason. I also hired a couple of "professionals" to do some of the structural work and work on the chimney/furnace etc. to avoid assuming the liability personally in case of a loss or partial loss I didn't want to be blamed and get screwed over.
@@millibarmanhaha. You must be an attorney. We call it post loss underwriting where I’m from. But yep. Very important.
Thank you for the video.
I love your channel. I'm a structural engineer in the Willamette Valley of Western Oregon. In Oregon and most states, you're following the IBC/IRC or the Oregon-Specific ORSC/OSSC codes. They both have exemptions in chapter 1 of each code: Section 105.2. It's always helpful to contact the local AHJ as well. It's actually better to be palms open about your endeavors, because most Building Officials have intentions to help. If they aren't, report them to the City Manager or County Officials.
i agree with what you are saying here. i'm just a small time contractor, i make a living and i love my work.
when i start a project i always ask about permitting. often in some rehabs in my state they aren't needed, but i ask anyway. new work is different, of course. (i also study the codes for each project i may be asked to do) if i am asked to do a job that really does need a permit and the client doesn't want to get one i will refuse to do the job. safety, resale, insurance are all parts of my discussion with the client when deciding on permits. i am adamant that all major electrical and plumbing work be permitted and done by licensed professionals. it's one thing to change an outlet or replace a faucet, but quite another to add breaker boxes or main trunk plumbing lines, etc. for me it is especially important to have the electrical work to be done right because it does introduce more cataclysmic problems than most other construction work, and yes, i understand bad framing can cause problems too.
our inspectors are usually fair, but i never meet with them without making sure i am totally up on the code for that project---even if i think i know it from past experience ("we've always done it that way"), it's always good to check and be ready (and if that sounds like a hassle you can always charge the client for the time it took to look up the codes, i don't, but just saying). but to me often codes are the lowest common denominator of what should be done to do it "right" and with that said i try to always do a project beyond code for it's always nice to have an inspector say "you didn't have to do that, but it is better that you did...."
and knowing codes and other things like spans and loads and hardware patterns and wood types are just part of our business. or at least for those of us who don't want to be known as "jacklegs"......
thanks for sharing your experience and opinions with this always interesting part of the business.
Thank you! Your comment “rules and policies are for the strict adherence of fools and guidance of wise men” it took over half my mission to figure out this concept. Your verbiage is concise and accurate. I’ll be sharing this with my son before he leaves.
love ur comment - esp. the addendum of "my mission", heh. 👍
Sage advice.
(and a pretty impressive one take as well)
Not sure about Oregon, but up north in Washington building permits and electrical permits are issued and inspected by different entities. Most things can be "replaced with existing" by the homeowner w/o a permit, but all new work requires a permit. I have found electrical permits to be fairly cheap and helpful and less punitive.
I do the work and have an electrician come out and check it. Even doing simple replacement type work, its nice to have another set of eyes sometimes on somewhat more complex work. Its also nice to know people in the trades that can help out with that type of stuff because it cuts the costs way down.
@@wildbill23c
Yeah this can work out great. I had a significant amount of plumbing work to do. Generally, I know the code and can do the work. BUT I also have a guy who recently became a master plumber who I consulted with when I was unsure. While he was here looking at my plan, I had him do one tricky connection. Cost me maybe $150, on a job plumbers had quoted at over $2,000. I don't need to pay a master plumber to dig a hole for a pipe! Sure is nice to have one confirm the best way to do the work, though.
In fact, just chatting with him on the phone before he came out solved one of the problems I was worried about. I was using PVC and Pex-B. When he mentioned Pex-A could be used that "magically" solved my problem. :)
Love this Sith Lord lighting
I know in my area you can try to build without a permit, but you have to aware that you might get a stop work order at any time. A neighbor might file a complaint, or in a friends case, the inspector might be driving by and notice a contractors vehicle who he knows very well. But that friend was prepared for the possibility and got back up and running quickly.
There are still some Wild West areas: like Cochise county, Az. You can get a permit, and receive a CO, but it is also perfectly legal tp build without. But you have to deal with the consequences of getting insurance or reselling.
Here is Syracuse NY, plumbing and electrical must be performed by a company that is owned by or employs a master plumber and electrician. The work does not have to be performed by the master plumber or electrician. The master plumbers and electricians of the area are all on the board that decides if someone can become a master plumber or electrician. They vote on if someone can take the test to become certified. This is led to only a small few companies being able to be permitted for the work, and driving up prices.
Sounds like commie New York
This is similar to the situation in the Chicago area where the wiring for single family dwellings must be in conduit.
controlling the supply of a commodity (here services bound to licenses being enforced by society) is done to prohibit/undermine competition which enables the benefactors to keep supply (way) below demand, so that revenue exceeds cost, which in turn generates profit. The very profit that otherwise would attract competition to increase the supply (until it meets demand - at cost).
This is widespread and very old.. for example:
patents: 14th century Venice, Italy - introduced to keep non-domestic competition out
copyrights: 17th century England - introduced to prevent other (competing) publishers from reprinting books
...and many more. They all rely on the monopol force (government) to enforce rules that benefit a few at the cost of the rest. *Problem is - societies REQUIRE governments to discipline a-social minorities or individuals.*
Sage advice!
That was very well thought out and skillfully presented.
I've seen people who are sure that because there was a permit and inspections that everything is done right. But that's just not the case.
Inspected or not, I trust myself far more than any professional at getting everything right and symbiotic with all systems in mind. I've seen far too many clusterf...s where different tradesmen came in at different times, each only concerned with their specialty. And many tradesmen having been shown "the right way" to do something, with little to no understanding of the underlying concepts. I'd much rather go the extra mile myself and take full responsibility for the outcome.
Another great video! As I age I tend to see things the way you describe them here more and more. And it's not as if I'm less competent or know less about the theory behind the codes. It's quite the opposite. As you know more and more, you realize what you don't know and that others may be able to help so you don't have to research everything yourself and still be unsure if you've thought about every last detail. At those times inspectors can be a big asset. Sure, you might pay a pretty penny for their advice but if the job comes out better because of it, and many times it does, it may just be worth it to the client and the builder.
Excellent information!
I built a garage shop by myself & got a permit, maybe $750? Relatively new to construction. Inspector caught several issues along the way that would have caused serious problems in my framing. Worth every penny of the cost & hassle.
Great lighting.
Excellant video, great topic and advise!!!
Very balanced discussion. One more reason for puling a permit is that if it's discovered that you didn't, you could incur a hefty fine or even be required to demolish the work. Two reasons not to are: 1) in some places, you'd be required to bring other parts of a structure up to the current code, which could make an otherwise small, affordable project prohibitively expensive, and 2) your property taxes and insurance are likely to be substantially increased.
I'm in Central Montana building a 1200 sq ft. straw bale house. As a owner/builder all I need is a septic permit and electrical permit. It's kind of fun, i don't need stamped lumber can build with straw, build my own trusses etc. The interior will be a bunch of stained concrete floors and counter tops. Decorated in what I can only call "steampunk bordello". at the end of a 30 year career as a carpenter I'm about to paint a masterpiece in the material/labor/ value formula.
But I would never think about not pulling an optional permit on contract work why? because it absolves me of liability. when I lived in Ohio there were places that didn't require building permits and if the owner didn't want to pay for it or deal with it you just built it according to the biggest pain in the butt local municipalities requirements.
I really enjoy this channel I've watched a lot of these vids and every thing you have done is spot on for the second oldest profession.
There is something to be said about people innovating how people live through experimental housing.
I built a few of those straw-bale homes in Nor-Cal. The Architects were well known for their straw homes, and the engineering/structural designs have been proven in many builds.
If you haven’t started purchasing material yet and you are interested, I would love to share with you, my plans of one of the homes.
Bear in mind that even if there are no inspections or permits, the county or state may have adopted the building code. You still have to follow the code.
I live in unorganized township in northern Ontario and it’s beautiful building what I want when I want.
I completed a major renovation and addition to my house where I added a 800 sq ft two story addition and reconfigured part of the roof also I added two bathrooms. I got a permit from the town so that there would be no problems when the town records didn't match with what I actually have, when it comes time to sell. If I were doing cosmetic changes or interior work that wouldn't change the major infastructure components of the house I certainly wouldn't get a permit as all this would do would be to invite an inspection of the property that would certainly show up as additional taxes.
I ran into something like this when I replaced my own water heater, and didn't realize that when I did so I had to bring it up to current code, not just as it was when the original water heater was installed. When I went to sell the home, the home inspection guy noticed that there wasn't an inspection sticker on the WH and flagged it. The seller, of course, requested it be inspected prior to closing. The county inspector came by and informed me of several modifications I would need to do to get it up to current code and even helped me by drawing out what was needed (a gas line drip leg). He said to call him when I get done with the modification and he'd come back out at no charge. A couple of days later when I was done I called him to come back and he gave me full marks on my craftsmanship, even saying it was done better than some pros he knows. Bottom line, I learned something and made it a better/safer installation and the home sale went through without further issues.
Good advice. Yes, un-permitted work can leave the homeowner exposed in the event of insurance claims, personal injury or later sale of the real estate. . Licensed architect here in Oregon and Washington for over 40 years. The Residential Building Code in each state (based upon the International Building Code) is fairly detailed about work that does, and does not, require a building permit. Building Code is often available on-line by the jurisdiction (usually the State). Also check local zoning code (setbacks, building height and other restrictions) along with any CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions) applicable to your home. Some early investigation can save a lot of later grief. My experience is that most plans examiners and field inspectors are reasonable if you are up-front with them about the work. Best to be cooperative to avoid a punitive inspector.
Well, done and I agree. I do home construction drawings for builders and homeowners. Some call me an architect but I readily correct that I am not. But my drawings do not need to be stamped at least for now. Follow 2021 IRC and state supplement. One of the first things I and my builder clients look at are the land issues. Early topic with the homeowner. Imagin building over a setback line without a permit only to be caught later. Just one example. In a neighboring town we had an SOB building inspector. Later fired and replaced with a reasonable inspector. Long story short. Maybe many homeowners had a talk with the first selectman. We all want to do a good job.
Very impressive comments and well-spoken lecture. Wisdom on UA-cam.
Have @Wonderful New Year's !//thanks
Los Angeles County here. Permit fees are calculated by the lineal foot ! No inspector is going to look at 300 fee of electrical wire or plumbing. Once he sees the label imprints on the type of wire or pipes, he is done and looking at "a part of" something else. Once they see the materials used are "approved types" for the work, they tend to only inspect connections, not by the lineal foot. BTW, some permit fees can be up to $40,000 for just a simple 3 bed 2 bath new home.
I could listen to such talks for hours... 👍
I don’t like looking over my shoulder when a project is running. 95% of our projects are under permits.
PS great quote at the end!
5% percent of the time you have a neck ache
@@clayed3311 Only 5% of our projects don’t need permits. 100% relaxed neck.
Man I can’t believe I just now found this UA-cam channel! What an awesome find!
Fire inspector here. Generally, work has to be at least bad for me to notice that something isn't done right. Of course, that means the work was done by someone who didn't know what they were doing, making the need for a permit and inspection even more important :-)
If it can catch fire, block someone from exiting safely, or otherwise potentially put a person a risk, get a permit. If in doubt, get a permit.
Like many things, there are outstanding "building Inspectors" who have significant knowledge and experience who can provide the envisioned oversight. Some, are government bureaucrats who have neither, but are only interested in "catching you" and generating violations and fines. Hope for the first, brace for the second.
Where I live the building inspectors are pretty level-headed. They have been very helpful. What I did learn is that you have to be careful communicating. I'm a long-term, read 40 years, engineer so I used a lot of industrial shorthand in submitting my permit applications. That caused a lot of back and forth. I always assumed that inspectors had to be licensed Professional Engineers or at least journeyman tradesmen, That was an incorrect assumption. They are, on the whole, good people. So communicate in a way that makes sense to them.
Now, lesson learned, while I have been accused of being an arrogant engineer often by my wife, on the point of disagreement, the inspector was right. So the real lesson learned was, as my Dad said, sometimes it's better to stay quiet and have people think you don't know something instead of opening your big mouth and removing all doubt.
When this video appeared in my feed, my first thought was that the algorithm was messing with me, and watching the first few seconds, especially the apparent vitriol with which the word “progressive” was pronounced, I was expecting to violently disagree with the conclusions, but pretty quickly I realized I’m in complete agreement with essentially every point made. I went from expecting to be hate-watching to instead liking and subscribing (something I don’t do casually!) over the course of the video. Good job!
I too was libertarian in my youth, and when I was 19 my parents and I built a log cabin in the woods. Back then the only permit needed was for sewer, so my parents and I did much of the work ourselves. I did _all_ the electrical work, my cousin and I did the plumbing, my godfather and I did the kitchen, my dad and I installed the flooring, mom was working full time but helped out on weekends, she did most of the interior finishing, notably all the polyurethane on the interior walls. My electric work got inspected before the electric company would turn the power on, but there no other inspections and no such thing as a final inspection or certificate of occupancy. Fast forward 35 years and I’m currently building an addition on that cabin, I needed a full suite of permits and accompanying inspections, and while I still do my own electrical work I’ve hired contractors for much, and the inspections that are part and parcel of the permitting process give me some confidence that the contractors are doing their jobs to at least some minimum standard. Some of it is hard to judge: for example, the framing inspector pulled a couple nails at random from some joist hangers and he made the contractor replace them all because the ones used were too short. The contractor agreed that they were shorter than code called for, and he replaced them as specified to pass the inspection, but he insisted to me (privately) that they would have been fine. I have no way to judge, and I do know where the electrical codes seem to err too much on the side of caution (though I always follow code!) so he probably has a point, but at the same time, I don’t mind the idea that people who know much more than I do, are writing rules that should help keep things safe and secure.
Just as I have come to understand and accept that permits, building codes, and inspections have a valid role in modern construction, I have come to accept that government regulations overall are a necessary component of living in a very complex, high tech, highly integrated world. I really appreciate the nuanced way this video makes those points, and I look forward to future content.
Great vid! I'd hazard a guess that most homeowners haven't a clue what a building permit is or when/why it's necessary (contractors and above average diy's mostly excluded). This was a really nice and to the point summary of them. Thanks!
In my experience, my hesitation in getting a permit was often because I had a rough plan but not the “full plan”, and didn’t want some inspector asking questions I wasn’t yet ready to answer. I’ve come to believe the inspector was my advocate when I’ve hired work out and something was done sloppy. They were also my advocate when I was doing the work myself and I learned to ask “what do you want to see/inspect on the next visit?” and the inspector took a few minutes to educate me on what was on the next report card. Passed every one the first time.
Sure, taxes go up, but at least here there is a graduated increase to take out some of the sting.
Overall, my interactions with inspectors have been rewarding/positive. Maybe just fortunate. Some contractors, maybe not so much. Not all are cut from the cloth Wadsworth is.
Lodi Ca you NEED a permit just to replace an existing light fixture, also you must completely strip a roof 1 layer only (state law 3 layers). stockton ca the flashing on the side of the house 2nd story that goes to the first story roof and has a 'v' to prevent water from entering the house, the inspector MADE me smash it down as it looked out of place, his supervisor agreed with me and said if it leaks we'll be held responsible (yeah right) states want the money inspectors are ALWAYS right even if their wrong. I did a job with new technology and it failed because the inspector wasn't sure if it would work.
Yeah. I've had permitted electrical work done that was signed off by a county inspector that was very clearly sub par. On a new main electrical panel, the door wouldn't open due to a device pinching the opening. There were new bare Romex wires laying on the ground in the open crawlspace that went to new outlets. Arc fault breaker was installed on a wrong circuit.
very good advice
Real talk.
Years ago I bought a beginner electric book at Lowes and started on the house myself. The county inspectors were great, giving me good ideas and I did whatever was in the book. An electrician would have cost a fortune. f or three way switch's, etc. I did get a professional to put in the box. The house caught fire and burned to the ground. a year later. The neighbors were furious at the firemen but the insurance company told me it wasn't the electrical system. Don't try to build in Boulder County , Colo. now! They inspect ,say it passes, then call back and tell you to change everything.
There was a time not so long ago that the county I live in didn't require ANY building permits as long as it was "owner occupied". People did find out that they couldn't get insurance for any live-in structure without a permit.
I'm certainly one who sees value in permits. As an avid DIY-er, I really value having a pro come out to make sure I've done everything right so I nearly always get permits for everything. All of the inspectors I've run into here are very reasonable. My personal opinion of the inspectors here is that they are more lenient and kind to homeowners pulling permits for their own work (as long as you're genuinely trying). I think they don't want to scare off people from seeking permits, where they could be harsher with a pro who should have known better.
One of the tricky things I found with permits is reading between the lines. I was surprised to find lots of grey areas in code. Especially in electrical, there are lots of forum posts to be found debating the meaning of various code references. It's like trying to figure out what an obscure bible verse means, different people have their own take. More often than I would have guessed, passing an inspection is more about the inspector's interpretation of the code than an absolute truth and that can vary between inspectors in the same jurisdiction. I find anxiety from not knowing how an inspector would take what I'd done.
I'm not sure about the fire loss question, but I've heard that too and am interested in the answer.
I have always found inspectors to be very helpful with owner performed work, even if they are tougher on professionals. For me, things like are branch circuit are pretty straight forward, though a sub-panel I permit from the liability perspective you identify.