Carole Hooven talks with Andrew Sullivan about her travails at Harvard and the crisis of academic freedom in higher ed. Listen to the whole episode here: andrewsullivan...
The fact that you had actual friends join the mob against you, shows how dangerous this ideology is. They knew you, and what kind of person you are, but you did not follow the “rules,” and for that, they were willing to throw you under the bus. That’s the most horrible part of this entire conversation. Unforgivable.
@kelleyfisher6932 It's worse than that. The 'rule' she violated was defined and adopted AFTER she said what she said. The mob is always redefining and crafting rules to target those they hate. Which is why everyone is walking on eggshells. You never know whether what you're about to say, or said 10 years ago, will trigger the mob to come after you. So, to prevent that, most join the mob in hopes being seen throwing invective at today's enemy will innoculate them from becoming tomorrow's enemy.
Yes. I recently said to someone, "If you were any dumber I'd make you a Harvard student." Centuries of excellence and prestige destroyed in a decade or two.
@@bird401 Given what I read about Harvard these days, I do not think one can overstate its problems. It’s a personal opinion of course, but a Harvard degree is a detriment in the work place now. If I were to consider hiring a Harvard graduate, I would seek information first I wouldn’t have dreamt of needing but a few years back.
@@bird401 Soviet Harvard, like just about all elite institutions, now has a cadre of political officers who enforce a party line. Gay was the titular head of this cadre (her own "scholarship" is ridiculous apart from being ripped off). Scholarship contrary to the party commands is censored, and the scholars ruined. It's not "Harvard" anymore. It's another thing, wearing Harvard's skin and parroting its voice, demanding the esteem that the actual Harvard accrued over literal centuries of scholarly work. Also, it's "principle," not "principal."
I read Professor Hooven's book on testosterone just a few weeks ago, and was so impressed, I gave it to one of my sisters. I noticed how the first half-dozen or so pages were dedicated to respectfully laying the groundwork for ignoring politicized critiques of biology, before getting down to biology. A few days ago, I read Hooven had lost her job, and now I see it on UA-cam. Clearly Claudine Gray, Harvard Corporation president Pritzker, and the other apparatchiki remain well-entrenched; Gray is still a professor, despite her plagiarism. Meanwhile a true scholar such as Carole Hooven is out on the street.
Harvard, as well as other universities, are headed downhill at a rapid pace. Perhaps it would be best if many Universities had to close their doors, given how idiotic the top level administrators and students are acting. I hate knowing that some of my tax dollars have gone to support the stupidity that has occurred, and continues to occur, at many Universities.
"the kind of science we need to help "X" people." There is a lot wrong with this statement. Science is a method to seek the truth, not cater to some social policy made up to service a group's feelings. I liked the part where she said "tell the f'n truth." That's what science is about PERIOD.
The Precise reason Professor Fryer was canceled, he showed the proof of and reality of police and racism. One of the individuals ultimately responsiblr for his cancelling? Claudine Gay.
He admitted to his inappropriate behavior, apologized and took multiple classes on power dynamics and sexual harrassment. That was not Gay or Harvard. That was him. He took full responsibility and made a wrong right.
@@KTravRuNEr It was Gay acting as a Harvard Dean who decided on Fryer's two year suspension because of sexual harassment. So the part about Claudine Gray was correct, but the notion that Fryer's research findings played any factor is purely circumstantial.
@@mattg3789 He never touched a woman or even asked one out. He made very slight indirect remarks--the type that 30 years ago would have been considered joking around. This is what I heard....
Eye opening episode. As a non-American it’s been difficult to understand this phenomenon especially as expressed during this Israel-Hamas war. Thank you. Have now subscribed.
What’s strange as an American is how many people will deny that “cancel culture” even exists on college campuses and this is all fear mongering by the right wing
I was a grad student at Harvard during the late '60s and early '70s. This kind of behavior on the faculty would have been unimaginable back then. I no longer recognize the university where I spent so much valuable time. There is reason to be pessimistic that the place will ever recover from this debacle, one which now describes the administrations of even most of the professional schools.
Looks like Harvard has been completely and utterly trashed in the last few decades by going woke. RIP Harvard. Poor woman, well done for standing for the truth. You have personal dignity.
I for one am fed up with gender politics, microagressions, and defiance of reality. I grew up in an age of academic and scientific freedom and find it hard to imagine that a professor can be censured for insisting that there are two sexes.
Universities should just admit that their policies are shaped by donors, and not by any humanistic principles of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Nor by individual freedom, free speech, and the spirit of the founding of America. But now universities have lost freedom of scientific inquiry.
How does accommodating delusions help the delusional? I though that, once upon a time, even psychiatrists knew better. Now, we can't trust psychiatrists to not be delusional, and they are the arbiters of what is a delusion. Maybe psychiatry should back up a few steps, and at least try to re-enter the halls of science.
The only solution here is for benefactors to start withholding money and for students to start looking elsewhere. It's the only leverage there is. Harvard has turned into the Evergreen State College.
EVIL can only propagate when GOOD people do nothing to stop it. Doing the right thing is always the more difficult thing to do when you only care about yourself. When you care for others it is the easiest thing to do.
This is all old news but somehow has meaning when Sullivan talks about it. I guess it's good the blind can now see, but if this is eye-opening to anyone, they need to take a long, hard look at themselves
My take away from this is that the faculty at Harvard is afraid that this could happen to them so they want to appear to be in agreement with the bullies pushing the trans agenda (and others). Somebody who a good scientist and speaks the truth gets ganged up on like this and is forced into retirement. The thing is, a full professor in a big school in the US makes a lot of money. It takes a lot to work ones way into such a profession and to put that into jeopardy is a scary proposition. This can't continue. It will end because clearly, the pinnacle of higher education is based on reputation.
@@plusfour1 true but now they people who back these failing institutions with money have seen the ideology turn on them and maybe people like jordan petersen , this lady and dr. swain will be looked upon to drag these schools/faculties out of the clutches of socialists/collectevists
That's precisely the point: you can't hide the truth to protect people's subjective "feelings" (as members of "marginalized" groups. But that was a big point with me in the 1990s when I wrote the first of my DADT books (after Clinton tried to lift the ban on gays in the military and we got DADTDP). I think I met Andrew sometime during that wonderful (for me) period.
We are living in a nut house. We are so damaged that we have rules that you can't speak any facts that someone might find uncomfortable. And my facts are as good as your facts. Sweet Jesus.
Perhaps it partly boils down to Karl Marx's well-known statement: "The point isn't to interpret the world - it's to change it." That means that "radical change" is more important than the facts, data, argument, etc. It's odd, then, that Marxists saw Marxism as being "scientific" - at least they did until the 1950s or 1960s. In any case, forget Marx and Marxism. What matters is (positive) ideology/theology and radical change (in the correct direction), not facts, data, argumentation, etc.
Yes, it is this that lies at the center of the Left's project in academia. Make all of the "scholarship" align with the party line by threats and bullying of dissidents, promotion of adherents and persecution of those who won't bend. In short order all of your nation's scholarship is equivalent to Lysenkoism but all dissent from it may be classified as ignorance and backwardsness.
I understand her position, but this is why these people are winning. Instead of bloody mindedly doing combat for the truth and making it clear she was right and her detractors are liars, she gave up. And once she did that they rule the field. And now their position is even stronger when they pick on the next person. You can’t say the truth is so important and then not fight for it. What was important was not the truth, it was your well being. And I appreciate that, it is your life after all. But giving in is why they win, and the hard truth is that you only beat them by suffering through and not giving in.
True academics are probably temperamentally the least able to engage in this kind of combat. The combat is asymmetrical as well - it would be an academic fighting a cadre of political officers (who themselves are sham academics, but put in place in order to discipline the true academics). An exception is Amy Wax, but she is a law professor who had a prior legal career so she is temperamentally going to be much better suited to fighting these people.
Knowing what academia has become, and has been for many years now, I have little sympathy for someone who, until recently, called that environment "my home." In other words, she was fine with the insanity...until it bit her in the butt. She criticized her colleagues for not caring most about "truth." Anyone who knows what academia has done to eradicate the very concept of truth with its post-modernist philosophy, will laugh at her "rediscovery" of "truth," when suddenly she found herself needing it. In other words, postmodernism is beginning to devour itself. I can only say: "Bon appetite." Gobble, gobble.
The fact that you had actual friends join the mob against you, shows how dangerous this ideology is. They knew you, and what kind of person you are, but you did not follow the “rules,” and for that, they were willing to throw you under the bus. That’s the most horrible part of this entire conversation. Unforgivable.
@kelleyfisher6932 It's worse than that. The 'rule' she violated was defined and adopted AFTER she said what she said. The mob is always redefining and crafting rules to target those they hate. Which is why everyone is walking on eggshells. You never know whether what you're about to say, or said 10 years ago, will trigger the mob to come after you. So, to prevent that, most join the mob in hopes being seen throwing invective at today's enemy will innoculate them from becoming tomorrow's enemy.
With friends like this, who needs enemies.
The institutional rot of Harvard is leaving a stench over the state of Massachusetts.
And the rot is so deep that it’s not fixable at this point
Yes.
I recently said to someone, "If you were any dumber I'd make you a Harvard student."
Centuries of excellence and prestige destroyed in a decade or two.
@@bird401 Given what I read about Harvard these days, I do not think one can overstate its problems. It’s a personal opinion of course, but a Harvard degree is a detriment in the work place now. If I were to consider hiring a Harvard graduate, I would seek information first I wouldn’t have dreamt of needing but a few years back.
@@bird401 Soviet Harvard, like just about all elite institutions, now has a cadre of political officers who enforce a party line. Gay was the titular head of this cadre (her own "scholarship" is ridiculous apart from being ripped off). Scholarship contrary to the party commands is censored, and the scholars ruined.
It's not "Harvard" anymore. It's another thing, wearing Harvard's skin and parroting its voice, demanding the esteem that the actual Harvard accrued over literal centuries of scholarly work. Also, it's "principle," not "principal."
I read Professor Hooven's book on testosterone just a few weeks ago, and was so impressed, I gave it to one of my sisters. I noticed how the first half-dozen or so pages were dedicated to respectfully laying the groundwork for ignoring politicized critiques of biology, before getting down to biology. A few days ago, I read Hooven had lost her job, and now I see it on UA-cam. Clearly Claudine Gray, Harvard Corporation president Pritzker, and the other apparatchiki remain well-entrenched; Gray is still a professor, despite her plagiarism. Meanwhile a true scholar such as Carole Hooven is out on the street.
So sad, so unfair and so ridiculous.
And to think I couldn’t get into Harvard 50 years ago. This is how far down Harvard has descended in half a century.
agreed
Being called transphobic means you told the truth.
Same with Is Lambo fobia …
Nonsense
Her book is amazing!! Highly recommend reading it. Harvard is no longer Harvard I once knew.
You mean the one Donald Trump and George Bush JUnior graduated from?
and George junior went to Yale.....
@@mikearchibald744 multiple presidents have graduated from Harvard. Not Trump though.
Harvard discriminated against Jews and Catholics for decades. The SATs corrected that for a while but political correctness was introduced.
@@mikearchibald744Trump went to Fordham and the Penn…not Harvard. Penn in 1965 was a lot different from Penn in 2024.
Harvard, as well as other universities, are headed downhill at a rapid pace. Perhaps it would be best if many Universities had to close their doors, given how idiotic the top level administrators and students are acting. I hate knowing that some of my tax dollars have gone to support the stupidity that has occurred, and continues to occur, at many Universities.
That’s what happens when women take charge
"the kind of science we need to help "X" people." There is a lot wrong with this statement. Science is a method to seek the truth, not cater to some social policy made up to service a group's feelings. I liked the part where she said "tell the f'n truth." That's what science is about PERIOD.
💯 science is a method
It's not a political tool
The Precise reason Professor Fryer was canceled, he showed the proof of and reality of police and racism. One of the individuals ultimately responsiblr for his cancelling? Claudine Gay.
I know Fryer was punished for sexual harassment, but not familiar with any penalization regarding his racial policing research.
@@mattg3789bogus charges
He admitted to his inappropriate behavior, apologized and took multiple classes on power dynamics and sexual harrassment. That was not Gay or Harvard. That was him. He took full responsibility and made a wrong right.
@@KTravRuNEr It was Gay acting as a Harvard Dean who decided on Fryer's two year suspension because of sexual harassment. So the part about Claudine Gray was correct, but the notion that Fryer's research findings played any factor is purely circumstantial.
@@mattg3789 He never touched a woman or even asked one out. He made very slight indirect remarks--the type that 30 years ago would have been considered joking around. This is what I heard....
Eye opening episode. As a non-American it’s been difficult to understand this phenomenon especially as expressed during this Israel-Hamas war. Thank you. Have now subscribed.
What’s strange as an American is how many people will deny that “cancel culture” even exists on college campuses and this is all fear mongering by the right wing
It's happening world-wide. Open your peepers.
I was a grad student at Harvard during the late '60s and early '70s. This kind of behavior on the faculty would have been unimaginable back then. I no longer recognize the university where I spent so much valuable time. There is reason to be pessimistic that the place will ever recover from this debacle, one which now describes the administrations of even most of the professional schools.
This movement is homophobic and misogynist . We stand with you .
_misogynist_ ?? You say "This movement _hates women_ " I don't think so. Please be concise and accurate in your language.
Misandrist!
Please can we all get back to "telling the f*cking truth." 👏💯
Did you mean Fire trUCKing truth 🚒👍👍👍
Truth is a crime in a land of lies.
Looks like Harvard has been completely and utterly trashed in the last few decades by going woke. RIP Harvard. Poor woman, well done for standing for the truth. You have personal dignity.
In a time of universal deciet telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
This is happening all throughout the American education system.
I for one am fed up with gender politics, microagressions, and defiance of reality. I grew up in an age of academic and scientific freedom and find it hard to imagine that a professor can be censured for insisting that there are two sexes.
Universities should just admit that their policies are shaped by donors, and not by any humanistic principles of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Nor by individual freedom, free speech, and the spirit of the founding of America.
But now universities have lost freedom of scientific inquiry.
Great talk! I can’t see anywhere the name of the cancelled professor. I would be interested in her book
Carole Hooven. In the description under the video.
Harvard = GENOCIDE , PLAGIARISM = depends on the CONTEXT 😂
HARVARD IS A JOKE
Defund WOKE!
Harvard stands for the Closing of the Mind, the prototypical Ideological Echo Chamber where it dominates the college rankings.
Harvard should cancel this department.
Or they could make two departments with different names, one in the School of Science.
My degree from a county community college is better than a degree from Harvard. I would never hire someone from an 'elite' school.
This video starts at the middle of a conversation. Can we have some context please? Who is this woman?
Claudine Gay believes plagiarism is a virtue at Harvard.
Harvard board agrees.
Roland Fryer was the best thing that happened to Harvard in 100 yrs. Where was the outrage when he was ‘cancelled’?
It seems like only yesterday that people thought math, science, and engineering departments would be a bulwark against this garbage.
Hamasvard
Keep your enemies close, and tour good weather friends even closer.
The English founded Harvard to be like Oxford and Cambridge. Look what you have done to my child.
As a Harvard grad, I say ‘Bravo’ for being a truth teller!
How does accommodating delusions help the delusional? I though that, once upon a time, even psychiatrists knew better. Now, we can't trust psychiatrists to not be delusional, and they are the arbiters of what is a delusion. Maybe psychiatry should back up a few steps, and at least try to re-enter the halls of science.
Nothing any longer is what we knew it to be! Academia has chosen to embrace the idea that acceptance of what was once insanity, is now the norm!
Leadership come across as cowards.
The only solution here is for benefactors to start withholding money and for students to start looking elsewhere. It's the only leverage there is. Harvard has turned into the Evergreen State College.
See also the the attacks on Roland Fryer
EVIL can only propagate when GOOD people do nothing to stop it. Doing the right thing is always the more difficult thing to do when you only care about yourself. When you care for others it is the easiest thing to do.
denial of xx & xy chromosomal differences is the latest trend among the newspeak academics
This is all old news but somehow has meaning when Sullivan talks about it. I guess it's good the blind can now see, but if this is eye-opening to anyone, they need to take a long, hard look at themselves
Mediocrity Harvard is thy standard bearer!
she should have a discussion with Dr Jordan B Petersen
My take away from this is that the faculty at Harvard is afraid that this could happen to them so they want to appear to be in agreement with the bullies pushing the trans agenda (and others). Somebody who a good scientist and speaks the truth gets ganged up on like this and is forced into retirement. The thing is, a full professor in a big school in the US makes a lot of money. It takes a lot to work ones way into such a profession and to put that into jeopardy is a scary proposition. This can't continue. It will end because clearly, the pinnacle of higher education is based on reputation.
@@plusfour1 true but now they people who back these failing institutions with money have seen the ideology turn on them and maybe people like jordan petersen , this lady and dr. swain will be looked upon to drag these schools/faculties out of the clutches of socialists/collectevists
That's precisely the point: you can't hide the truth to protect people's subjective "feelings" (as members of "marginalized" groups. But that was a big point with me in the 1990s when I wrote the first of my DADT books (after Clinton tried to lift the ban on gays in the military and we got DADTDP). I think I met Andrew sometime during that wonderful (for me) period.
ok sooo she resigned not fired?
Harvard's apple has a w o r m.
I have lost all respect for academia. Science has been weaponized.
Marginalized FOR A REASON
We are living in a nut house. We are so damaged that we have rules that you can't speak any facts that someone might find uncomfortable. And my facts are as good as your facts. Sweet Jesus.
I wouldn’t expect any support from Harvard at this point. You might as well work at Evergreen.
This country is fucked. I'm sure glad I'm 75 and getting near the end of my journey.
Hard science and sociology don’t mix.
If you follow the link to hear the whole podcast, you will hit a paywall half way through.
Shocking
WHO is the guest?
soft bigotry of low expectations....oldie but a goodie
I guess she will quit Harvard
Listen to the video to the very end, the last sentence. She did not quite harvard, she hired a lawyer and negotiated her retirement.
@@SlaveToMyStomach
What a surprise. Not a lot of spine to fight from inside the tent.
@@jeanmarshfan
No
Christ no!
No freedom inside academia
INSANITY.
Perhaps it partly boils down to Karl Marx's well-known statement: "The point isn't to interpret the world - it's to change it." That means that "radical change" is more important than the facts, data, argument, etc. It's odd, then, that Marxists saw Marxism as being "scientific" - at least they did until the 1950s or 1960s. In any case, forget Marx and Marxism. What matters is (positive) ideology/theology and radical change (in the correct direction), not facts, data, argumentation, etc.
Yes, it is this that lies at the center of the Left's project in academia. Make all of the "scholarship" align with the party line by threats and bullying of dissidents, promotion of adherents and persecution of those who won't bend. In short order all of your nation's scholarship is equivalent to Lysenkoism but all dissent from it may be classified as ignorance and backwardsness.
A bit vague about who the person is, what is taught, etc.
I understand her position, but this is why these people are winning. Instead of bloody mindedly doing combat for the truth and making it clear she was right and her detractors are liars, she gave up. And once she did that they rule the field. And now their position is even stronger when they pick on the next person. You can’t say the truth is so important and then not fight for it. What was important was not the truth, it was your well being. And I appreciate that, it is your life after all. But giving in is why they win, and the hard truth is that you only beat them by suffering through and not giving in.
True academics are probably temperamentally the least able to engage in this kind of combat. The combat is asymmetrical as well - it would be an academic fighting a cadre of political officers (who themselves are sham academics, but put in place in order to discipline the true academics).
An exception is Amy Wax, but she is a law professor who had a prior legal career so she is temperamentally going to be much better suited to fighting these people.
Does self cancellation count as a cancel?
Knowing what academia has become, and has been for many years now, I have little sympathy for someone who, until recently, called that environment "my home." In other words, she was fine with the insanity...until it bit her in the butt.
She criticized her colleagues for not caring most about "truth." Anyone who knows what academia has done to eradicate the very concept of truth with its post-modernist philosophy, will laugh at her "rediscovery" of "truth," when suddenly she found herself needing it. In other words, postmodernism is beginning to devour itself. I can only say: "Bon appetite." Gobble, gobble.
This woman thinks that facts or reality will damage a victimist cause? Really? This game has been going on since the "civil rights" thingamabob.
The only reason I’m watching this is that she’s pretty 😅😅😅