5 THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW before going from photography to astrophotography
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- When photographs try their hand at deep sky astrophotography... things can get fun! Here are 5 things you should know before you try your hand at astrophotography!
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Great video, but I never cease to be amazed by the stunning results from my Canon 650 D. For those people feeling that astrophotography may be a daunting hobby, remember that a bad night under the stars beats the good day you had in the office.
That's a very, very good point Peter!! Thank you!
Dunno, a bad day at work followed by a miserable night getting frozen and damp, dodging clouds and no results kinda tops it off ;)
I digress - From around 2016 some big strides were made with camera sensors and electronics, greatly reducing read noise and amplifier noise. From around 2018 we started to see "dual gain" (and other such names) whereby high ISO has become no more noisy than say 2 stops lower (more in some cases), at the expense of some dynamic range. This may mean that a high end camera is currently better than a colour astro cam. But not a high end mono astro cam with filter wheel etc. It's an expensive hobby.
Another thing to practise with the photographic camera is nighttime photography. No, it is not the same as astro-photography, although allied in using tripod and long exposure, but an art in its own right. The two arts can be combined.
Great points. Your number 2 about creativity I think misses something- I don’t care about how many other people have imaged the same targets, the fact that I did it myself is very satisfying. Cheers!
Oh I *completely* agree with you - I don't see it as a negative, but some would, especially from a photography background. So I mention it!
Great video. My new “go-to” for when photographers ask me about astrophotography!
Thanks Jeff!
Yeah, a great summary, Cuiv! ‚sickness of wanting to buy new euipment’ and ‚the event horizon‘ - hilarious 😂
I've given up on this hobby, it's been 5 months without a clear night, spent thousands, not worth it imho. If you live in a country with decent weather then go ahead, but living in the UK is a no go, you're lucky if you get a dozen sessions per YEAR. I've taken up macro photography it's much more reliable, costs way less and even when its raining it's a plus because you can take pics of spiders with water droplets for hats :) Weather is the main factor in my 10 years of experience
I'm confused have you been doing this for 5 months or 10 years? The hobby needs patience and the equipment will last you a lifetime. I leave my stuff outside with a cover on just need a quick polar align and off I go.
I found the clear outside app website to be invaluable for planning a session as is a sky camera so you can see if it really is cloudy as it's not always obvious.
@@backgammonbacon i use that app too, it's been cloudy for 5 months(nights), i've had roughly 30 sessions in 10 years, not even an exaggeration, i've been incredibly patient, also it's more than just a quick polar align, to get decent pictures like cuiv you need to setup multiple programs and ensure that they work, which sometimes they don't and you need to consult the forums for help, but with how long it takes for the next clear night, that will be wasted on testing new methods to get it working
I feel for you man... I had forgotten about the weather contribution. It's not great here, but not as bad as some other places. The only advice I can give is to test as much as possible during the day, and to not change the equipment until getting it right with what you have... Sending positive waves your way, and good luck!
I agree with you that if you live in an area w spotty weather, you won’t get too many opportunities to get better and to enjoy it.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Thanks
Great video Cuiv!! - I loved hearing about the points you bring up here, and think you made a great choice for #1 in the list!!
Thanks for making this!
Thanks Luke!
HUGE LIKE just for the epic thumbnail...the video was excellent as usual too! ;)
Thank you! That thumbnail was fun to make :p
All I heard was a lot of negative things. Nothing positive. That's a shame because the hobby is more equitable and easy to get into than at any time in the past. Rank amateurs today are capturing images that professional astronomers only dreamed of getting when I first started. A person starting out doesn't need to spend a fortune to enjoy the hobby. And learning the techniques and science behind them is relatively easy with so many open resources available on the Internet.
Cuiv has fallen into the trap a lot of Astronomers fall into when giving out advice. They jump to the end of the hobby and give only advice related to that i.e. only expensive scopes, mounts, camera have any value. There's no concept that people have hobbies to learn things and are happy to start out slow, cheap and with low expectations.
None of them seem to care about the science side it's either astrophotography or stargazers pretending to be "pure" astronomers (lol couldn't be further from the truth real astronomers i.e. scientists use photography).
@@backgammonbacon Thinking about it ... Yes you can get an eq 3 with a motor do the same thing as say a eq5 goto in terms of tracking an object with a small refractor and a DSLR ...
But I know it takes much more knowledge and skills to get the same performance out of it...
So if you're already heavy into this discipline you can come up with a cheap setup that will perform, but now consider a newbie ... It's probably overwhelming ...
The fastest way out is throwing money at it, stellina or unistelar being probably the easiest way ... And then, the frustration begins ... I want more apperture, a different filter, better camera ... Oh shit, my mount can't handle it ...
So priority has the following:
1 mount
2 scope
3 camera
4 filter
5 where you are ve where you'd like to be - portability
6 what you can can image Vs what would you like- this being the las as you don't know until you try ... Nobody knows right at the start ...
At least that's my take
"The reward, when you get it right... It's, it's incomparable". I didn't try to make things negative, and yes the hobby is more accessible than ever. And yes it's easier than ever - but there are still so many challenges, so many things to learn, resources on the Internet can be confusing or actively contradicting one another, but also that aspiration for "better" photos that can really get you deep into the rabbit hole... Speaking from the perspective of an addict :)
@@backgammonbacon I tend to disagree with that assessment. Here I describe what happens when you fall into the deep end, and do mention that for many, keeping with the gear they have will be satisfying. But for addicts like me, the draw of a "better" picture is too strong and leads to buying equipment syndrome, etc. The black hole is real!
I also didn't understand the point/relevance on the visual vs astrophoto argument.
This is true w all photography and hobbies. If you’re passionate, you’re always looking for ways to get better.
I’ve taken photos most of my life. My first SLR camera was a Russian Zenit E (yes I’m THAT old). I’ve also had loads of binoculars and telescopes over that time but only occasionally dabbled in combining the two hobbies. Recently however, I downsized my heavy scopes with the intention of getting more into astrophotography. Covid meant I was restricted to my light polluted garden and that actually forced me to explore the worlds of goto, plate solving, guiding and computer driven capture. It’s a world away from when I first put my DSLR on a tripod and took 30 second exposures. Challenging in so many ways, especially here in Central Scotland which is one of the wettest, cloudiest parts of Europe! I’ve not had more than a few clear hours since mid August but frustrating as it is I’m not complaining. As you say Cuiv when everything clicks on that one particular night it makes all the clouds, technical failures and mistakes worthwhile. Excellent video which I take great personal encouragement from. Easy to forget how difficult and challenging this endeavour actually is and if you’re capturing anything remotely recognisable, you’re doing something right. Thanks Cuiv.
Thanks so much Stuart!! Wow that's quite some experience and equipment you've used!! I really hope you can some good cloudless nights soon... Light pollution is one thing but weather is definitely a huge factor as well!
Thank you very much, Cuiv. A wonderful abstract and comparison! Greetings from Germany.
Thank you so much for that feedback!
Haha. Awesome thumbnail! Good vid too buddy!
Thanks Shawn! The thumbnail was very fun to make :p
The other thing that surprised me about the astrophotography transition was not just how expensive the equipment is, but also how much of it often seems cheaply made. If I spend $2000 on a Nikon lens, I know it's going to be a quality, usually lifetime-lasting lens. I rarely feel that way about $2000 astronomy equipment. A black hole of money, indeed.
YESSSS, that is so true! Like a $2000 mount might not be great, but a $5000-$10000 one would be. It's like the scales are different...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek , I assume the numbers of astro gear sold are much lower. You can also see exponential pricing in super telephoto lenses (some going over $10K) and in "medium format" digital photo cameras made and sold in very small numbers.
Nice video and love to see you having fun :)
But yes, I just found out about Gemini telescope design mounts and was awe struck ...
I can definitely see how far easier it would be to have a mount that has less than 1" peak to peak error ... Unguided ... But hey ... There's always the cost ... :)
It is crazy but I'd better save up for that before any other upgrade ...
Hahaha, the temptation is real!!! But what you have with autoguiding is good enough... No, the black hole!
Living in Bortle 2 helps, but nothing beats living on top of a mountain that sits above the clouds haha. For me the most frustrating part is the damn weather that never seems to cooperate when we most want it to! Great video man, even though nothing was new to me I still watched it till the end - good job!
Ha! True! If you always get clouds being in Bortle 2 doesn't mean anything! :D
"You take the blue pill...the story ends, you wake up in your bed having taken no images. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland, and I show your savings accounts how deep the rabbit hole goes."
That's pretty much it :-) but instead of agents you'll fight poor conditions, poor tracking, etc.
lol
I have entered the rabbit hole and I do not regret it and I think I never will. Thinking of catching photons from thousands or millions light years away itself is rather romantic and worthwhile. I am also living in this heavily-light-polluted Tokyo and I have to drive for 2 or 3 hours to get away from this metropolitan to get to a dark site. But I still love it. When the final photo appears on the screen after the long progress bar reaches its end, you know, all your efforts to achieve this, the cold, fear and loneliness you have to endure just seem to be blown away by this amazing universe.
Thoughts - If you are moving from photography, you have a camera, use that camera. Probably more important to get an equatorial mount. An Alt-Az goto may be cheap but works in step movements which is fine for visual but not with a camera. The telescope is often relatively cheap compared to the mount. When considering the telescope, consider what a photography camera can photograph, the moon, planets, milky way (wide field, camera lens) and even and larger clusters - so you want a telescope for that. Some of the 'lens' type scopes (and I'm thinking Williams Optics) are roughly comparable to some extra-long camera lenses. Use what you have.
The sensor size, or rather its diagonal or image circle diameter, plays a large rôle in determining the magnification of a lens and hence field of view of a telescope. So this is an important consideration when purchasing a camera. A small sensor (such as the webcam size, many guide cameras are "1/3") will give a small field of view and a higher magnification (which are the same thing really). It's not the only consideration, we should also consider resolution and pixel size.
Excellent video Cuiv. I could not agree more with your "number one thing you should know". You hit the nail on the coffin on that one. I love your thumb nail for this video! - Cheers Kurt
Thanks Kurt! I had a lot of fun making the thumbnail too :-p
this was a great topic - that i had never considered before. Thanks, Cuiv!
Thank you! It was a fun thumbnail to make and fun video!
Haha good work. I think you mean
1. expect to spend a lot more money, you don't already have the right gear
2. expect to spend a lot more time (when you would normally be sleeping)
3. you probably live in the wrong place for this
4. expect endless frustration
But when it comes together it's awesome - you realise you have actually photographed something that you can't even see with the naked eye!
That's exactly it! Thanks Mart!
Says it as he see's it. Again great video Quiv and no pushy sales shite...
Thank you Wayne!
Hi Cuiv, I’m a bird photographer and have gotten into Astro a little over a year. What I’ve learned along that journey is exactly what you described. I basically had to buy a different set of lenses and I’ll probably have to buy a new camera. The two hobbies appear to share equipment w the same capabilities but in reality don’t. I also find the Astro images to be a lot anonymous compared to images in bird photography and other photographic genres. I still enjoy Astrophotography but will stick to wide field for now. I hope others who embark on this hobby from traditional photography watch this video especially if they watch other UA-cam astrophotographers telling them that getting into Astro is easy. It isn’t.
I forgot to say that I wish I bought a Goto mount rather than a tracker and a heavy duty tripod. The difference in price is small and a Goto mount will spare you the lost time looking for your desired DSO.
Thanks for the feedback! And yes, it can be a very daunting hobby! And completely agree with you on a GoTo mount - combined with auto-centering/platesolving, it makes everything far, far easier.
Is there a clinical name for that equipment black hole you are talking about? If not I’d like to suggest ‘’Noctilucent Oniomania”, I definitely found that blackhole early on!
Oooooh I love that name! Let's use that :D
Fun video, matches most of the surprises I had coming from terrestrial photography. When are you going to stop by Maui so I can show you a dark sky at 3200 meters up? : )
Thanks James! Oh man I wish!! I'll let you know if I stop by :-)
I like the energy, kind of an excited denial.
Edit: Also, that thumbnail is Awesome! Loved it.
Hahaha yes that's about it, thank you Matthew!
Oh no! It's too late I've been bitten by the astronomy/astrophotography bug. Great video Cuiv.
Hahaha, well, welcome to the black hole and I hope you're enjoying the journey!
For me, one of your best videos! I was never interested in "normal photography", but now I got some information in that direction, nice! 🙂
And you are soo right regarding all this astro photography stuff you named here. Very good that someone said this (balm on the wounds of astrophotographers 😉).
Thanks so much for the feedback! :D
And now you tell me, after I am beyond the event horizon! 😆
Great 👍 video, Cuiv!
Hahaha it's too late for you, sorry!
I love the style you have for explaining things 🙃👍👍👍
Thank you Joan!!
And Finally the bonus: You will watch the weather like an eagle, you will know the weather forecast better than any TV presenter, you will lose sleep, your wife will ask you how is the weather going to be today and if you don't know the weather for the day she will curse you that you only care about the weather when you plan a trip to your dark location😱😱😭😭😭
Hahaha that is far, far, far too accurate!!!
I have access to a reasonably dark site, but it has no electrical service. I had an imaging session come to an abrupt end one time when I forgot to change the power management profile on my laptop and the battery went flat long before I'd met my goal for the night...it made me rethink the notion of imaging from my light polluted back yard.
Yeah that kind of stuff happens... it can be so, so frustrating...
The lady of the house saw my latest rig , and she said "science fiction". I'm a stoked geek.
Hahaha our rigs can sometimes look like UFOs :p
Great video... while I don't have a background in photography, I have many friends that do. It does always seem like we speak slightly different languages.. so this video helps me a lot. :)
Glad it helped! Maybe we should have a translation dictionary :D
@@CuivTheLazyGeek lol
I hear people describe sensor cooling as the actual temperature, ie. -10C, aka, below freezing. That isn't how that works. If that were the case, computer CPU's would be super cooled as well, as they use the exact same cooling system. That -10C temp is 10 degrees below the ambient temp, ie, if the ambient temp is 23C, the sensor temp would be 13C, not -10C. That is why it is harder to cool the sensor during the summer months. In the winter, when the ambient temp is cooler, it is much easier to hit -20 or even lower temps. Even then, the temp would be +3C in that case. Just FYI, I would rather see accurate info out there in the Ether. :)
Hi Jim, that's actually incorrect! When the sensor temp displays -5 degrees, it is minus 5 degrees indeed, and not -5 degrees below ambient. The displayed temp is absolute temp. The cooler spec however will quote how much below ambient it can cool at best, so that if that spec says up to 30 degrees below ambient, then it will indeed for down to 0 degrees for instance in summer, and -20 degrees in winter for instance. The fact that the actual displayed temperatures are absolute is actually important!! It allows us to take darks during cloudy nights without having to worry about ambient temperature (as long as the target temperature can be reached).
Peltier cooling has been tried for computers, but it doesn't make sense in that use-case! The CPU generating so much heat so quickly simply doesn't work for a Peltier cooler! Check this for instance: ua-cam.com/video/sWrqyQWfhrs/v-deo.html
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Ah, I believe I understand now. The ambient temp rating means that it can hit, for example, -10C as long as -10C falls within it's ambient temp range. Ie, my ASI183MC will cool to -35 to -45C below ambient. Meaning that if I want my sensor to be -10C, as long as the ambient isn't above +35C, I can do that. Gracias sir. It was driving me crazy thinking all you people had it wrong, turns out the oposite was true. :)
Have I ever heard so many true words in such a short period of time?.. I don’t think so. I am at the edge of the deep dark hole that is astrophotography and am rapidly losing my grip. Oh dear…… a new mount is on order to replace my star tracker, a dedicated camera is next on the list with a filter wheel because the dslr just can’t crack it any more and then of course another scope for just that bit more reach. I’m lost to the hobby but consumed by it. Thanks to all the Astro guys on UA-cam, without you it would be so much harder. Bortle class 2 New Zealand. 🇳🇿
Hahahaha you are doomed :D But At least Bortle 2, so that equipment will give you amazing, amazing results!
Pete, what's your address? I am going to move close to your location 😉.
The "thumbnail" is very creative.
Thank you :)
Too late, I'm well past the event horizon.
Well.. good luck to your wallet! :D
Absolutely love the thumbnail, made me smile
Thanks, I had a lot of fun making it :p
Thanks for the video, very interesting! Where is your balcony in Tokyo? What area of the city, if not a secret?
I don't want to say precisely, but I'll say it's not far from Futako-tamagawa
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I lived for a week in Tokyo in the Waseda station area. There was also a similar balcony on the roof of the house. But then I was not yet engaged in astrophotography.
Fantastic Guide Cuiv. So People moving from Photography to Astrophotography, DSLR Astro Modification Is Definitely One Important Point as Well! I think We Can do Without Modification as Well, But Ut helps To Gather The Ha Signal! Thanks For Sharing!
Very good point! I didn't want to get too technical, but that's definitely a big one for nebulae
Great insights. Thanks for sharing.
My pleasure :)
Great video.
Another great helpful video
Thank you! Glad it's useful :)
Cuiv, looking at telescopes sold via websites, I see f-stop figures all the time. They have the same physical meaning for astro-photography as the maximum-aperture values for land-based photography: the idealized maximum light gathering. These f-stop values can be compared directly after a little bit of self-education: just square a ratio of two f-stop numbers to compute the ratio of the light gathering ability (assuming the two products are the of same quality).
I don't see those much! I usually see "x times faster" like for RASA or Hyperstar. Like comparing 7.7 and 4.9 it will be easier to say 2.5x faster! Rather than a bit over one stop faster :)
dat thumbnail doe 😂
Hehehe I had fun making it :)
That thumbnail! Lmfao
Hehehe :-)
Loved the video. Some thoughts while sitting here in my lazy geek T-shirt and sipping coffee through a slightly too small coffee mug but here I go. Dark skies number one. We should all be involved. So important for the entire world. We want our children to be able to be amazed by the Milky Way and beyond. Always the dream.
Just a thought after seeing your mount set up. Those wire organizers seem like a great idea but would recommend getting a soldering iron, a pair of snips and a little heat shrink tubing and making custom length wires to simplify the hole wiring set up. I enjoy that as much a part of the hobby as setting up my own customized rig. It’s another facet to the hobby. Something any technophile should be able to accomplish. Beyond that keep up the great work. Clear skies
I completely agree - I dream of a Tokyo with darker skies because light appliances are better shielded... but awareness here is extremely limited...
Yes on the cables, but I prefer not to! I don't trust myself to reassemble them well, plus in the end as long as there's no cable snag, it's really not a problem besides adding a bit of weight to the rig!
Hey Cuiv, I have a Canon DSLR and a Meade Deep Sky Imager IV camera and I can't get either one of them to show up on my list in NINA or PHD2. would you have any ideal why that would be?
It really depends on the DSLR - as for the Meade, have you tried installing the ASCOM driver? That should definitely appear in NINA. You may want to ask directly on the NINA Discord too!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I believe that I have it dhows up in the skycap but not in anything else but thanks I'll give Discord a try
@@CuivTheLazyGeek When using a DSLR in NINA do you have to have any other software like EOS Backyard to operate the camera or can you do it in NINA?
@@CuivTheLazyGeek shouldn't I be able to see though my guide scope in the day time? Meaning if I connect it to phd2 and turn on guiding shouldn't I be able to see lets say the top of a house or trees etc. on the screen.?
Sound advice! I wish this video existed 9 years ago. I spent many months treating astro imaging like portraiture. I gave up very frustrated. I started up again 2 years ago and am in love with the hobby. Never give up!
Thank you Jorge! If only I had a time machine!
Great video, Cuiv for those photographers wanting to try astro imaging. QUESTION for you. About a month or so ago you were showing a piece of software that would let you see what position/orientation your telescope was pointing. Do you recall the software?
That was likely the ASIAIR plate solving - but you can do the same on PC with ASTAP for instance, and there are even smartphone apps that do that (as far as I remember)
Excellent video. I am already down that slippery path and slipping further. :-).
Maybe there is still time to slip away? :p good luck!
Hey Cuiv great video! Off topic but I am curious if you have tried affinity photo for image processing? The latest update has an astrophotography feature set which looks quite interesting.
No I haven't tried, but I'll definitely have a look!
That's an accurate description of the process, thank you! I come from the photography field and use a simple tracker + guider + DSLM + camera lenses. I deeply agree with what you said about the level playing field. I noticed that a dark sky makes such a great difference that now I don't feel like shooting in the (light and air polluted) city anymore. And yes, it is a constant switch between happiness and frustration... So much so that I decided not to invest further in gear for the time being. I only chase opportunities to shoot in a dark location.
Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, we do have ways to deal with light pollution to some extent, but nothing beats a dark sky, it almost feels like cheating!
This was great- There's a lot of instructional vids, but not many people set realistic expectations about AP.
Thanks Dennis!
The event horizon, lmao.
😄
👍
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I think the other piece of that “playing field” is income itself. As you mention, it’s an expensive hobby and can be a “black hole.” I think even the most basic of rigs is out of reach for most people.
You're absolutely right...
Great video Cuiv, I think you nailed many of the key points here.
Thanks as always Ollie!
Excellent, Cuiv, you make this so clear in your videos, that it’s not a simple but very rewarding hobby!
The reward can indeed be amazing!
Salut Cuiv,
Cool video !
Je voulais te remercier car j'ai reçu aujourd'hui la nouvelle lentille de sharpstar, j'ai écrit comme tu a fais et il me l'ont aussi envoyé, je l'ai installer et je testerai le résultat cette semaine , Merci à toi !
Excellent, je suis content d'entendre ca! J'espere que ca fonctionnera bien pour toi! Bon courage avec les tests!
So true. Difficult but yet very rewarding hobby. Thanks to you I kept at it and automated everything and it makes life so much easier once it is set up. If you intend to enter this hobby go all in and do it right otherwise it becomes too frustrating and easy to quit and give up. So glad to see you enjoying yourself once again. Thanks
Thanks Salomon! Yeah, automating everything is just the right way to go... if you have the budget for it...
Thanks! I have been interested to expand my normal photographing with astro for years and I have studied it quite much and I came to the same conclusions as you and that pure astro is not for me. I still am trying to find out what I can do with my normal FF camera and lenses and stop there equipment wise with maximum a small investment added on like in a portable tracker. A video about that and how to maximize the use of normal cameras + lenses and still do some astro imaging would be welcome!
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll keep that in mind! Note that some of the best lenses for astrophoto are the Samyang/Rokinon 135mm f2 (closed down a bit) and the Canon 200mm f2.8 (also closed down a bit). What you then will be missing is a tracking mount... And maybe an astro-mod for your sensor!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek Both that Canon 200/2.8 and the Samyang 135/2 are not that expensive, and I've seen other astro channels recommend them, but I'd prefer to start with something I already have like my 70-200/2.8 or my vintage 135/2.8 prime. Not sure how well those would do for astro though. So if you really want to help us regular photographers to start in astro then a video about what minimum gear one need, both hard- and software and also how to figure out how good the gear that one already have is for astro. How to test it I mean, what to look for? And also wide angle milky way astro and more tele photo astro. What does a regular system camera setup do the best? What does it do fairly okey? What results to expect and what is out of scope when one only want to max spend say 1000 USD on astro specific add ons to the system camera setup one already have? Recently I have seen people with high res FF cameras shot regular tele zooms on a fixed tripod with short enough shutter time to not get trailing and then just stack the images and live with the crop that comes from not having a moving mount. Especially images from the moon and other planets seems to work okey with this method. Regarding astro mod, that is not so interesting since I understand it alters the regular photo ability. But I've seen clip in filters, are those anything to use instead maybe?
Great content as ever!
Thank you!
Tell it like it is!!! :)
I try!
Great information, Thanks! and keep up the great work you do.
My pleasure, glad it's useful!
Pentax!! - How about a video on using a Pentax camera and overcoming the lack of support in the automatic tools such as Astroberry/NINA etc. )
Hey, my Pentax works fine with Stellarmate/Astroberry, they added a native driver for it not long ago!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek is it a K1? In Maine mode does it set ISO and I assume you are using it in FITS mode and not Native DNG?
Maine = native :)
@@bigjimny yep, K-1 in bulb mode, set to record in FITS
Great video, thanks for sharing the info 🙏🏼
My pleasure!
Very interesting Cuiv great video as always.
Thank you!
That thumbnail is epic!!!
Thank you!
👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻👍🏻