The biggest problem with HMs is that the vast majority of them were terrible moves in-battle so you were basically forced to either hard nerf your team with near-useless moves, or bring on an 'HM slave' while being forced to outright leave a real team member behind. This was further aggravated by the fact that you could never replace the HM moves on your mons without the move deleter NPC, who literally only exists for this exact reason.
The original purpose of the move deleter was to allow players the trasfer of any gen 1 pokemon from GSC to RBY, which would fail if the pokemon knew any gen 2 move. It quickly became more popular for deleting HMs, but that wasn't its original purpose.
The only useful HM's in battle were Surf and Strength, and later on, Dive and Rock Climb. Due to how big Mt.Corenet is in Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, it required two HM slaves! Bibearl is the Best hm slave as it can learn all 5 required HM's: Rock Smash, Surf, Waterfall, Strength, and Rock Climb. My Bibearl in my Ice type run in Pearl had Rock Smash, Surf, Waterfall, and Rock Climb while my Mammoswine had Strength
But Pokémon has never been hard enough to force any optimization. When I was a child, I completed Pokémon games just spreading my HMs around my whole team, and I only even consolidated because I genuinely though a flying-swimming-cutting-flashing Pokémon was a very cool idea. “What if my Pokémon was a car and a plane?”
I agree with you, the problem with HMs isn't the concept, but the execution, specially in gens 3 and 4. Having to sacrifice a spot in your team just for HMs is annoying, but the idea of having side/optional content because of them is always a good thing.
HM’s are supposed to create continuity of the world the player character exists in. It is a way of showing that your Pokemon exist in and interact with the world, that they’re not just battle sprites. Cut, at least in Gen 1, is the only bad HM move needed to progress, and the game goes out of its way to hint that you should use the move on a burner Pokemon. That’s why there’s a Pokemon centre right outside of Rock Tunnel, so you can store the Pokemon you only needed for Cut while giving you a new checkpoint to respawn at in a location where you don’t need Cut anymore. Fly, Strength, and Surf are good moves. Flash is optional and the game gives you Pokemon that can learn Flash in a patch of grass right near Rock Tunnel. This is also intentional. The game is trying to teach you to catch a wide variety of Pokemon because you might need them for something you didn’t think of. However, the use of HM’s became bad game design in Gen 4.
I will continue to shill my idea that the best way to do HMs would be to let any pokemon who would be able to learn the HM just use it without needing to learn the move. This would help ensure that the player (probably a child) would have a variety of team members in order to have a more fair fight against different bosses which I feel was Game Freaks original design intentions with HMs.
I mostly say this because I really really dislike using random "ride pokemon" instead of my own team, that's so lame. The dumb outfits don't help that either lol
Eh I wouldn't say this compromise is perfect. The current solution allows for unlimited team composition. You wanna play through the entire game with a single Magikarp? You can do that. With this, you still need to catch certain Pokemon to get access to the HMs. What if you don’t want a flying-type on your team? You're basically locked out of Fly. I understand why it's more appealing to have your own Pokemon help you traverse the world, which is why I feel the best solution would just be to make all HMs optional, maybe have a harder path by default that can be skipped by having a Pokemon with Strength. This way, you can still complete the game no matter your team comp, but the game still rewards you for having a diverse team and you still get the satisfaction of using your own Pokemon.
Maybe they could have implemented them similarly to how they did the special effects of the Pokeballs, with Ball Capsule stickers and stuff in Diamond and Pearl and the remakes, where it just gave you customization towards your own Pokemon and they could have done something similar with the HMs, where you could equip them with saddles and stuff to be able to use the HMs, and if you wanted to be fancy about it maybe make different styled saddles or harnesses purchasable in shops, as that would add style towards that functionality, but I understand why they couldn't implement it in the beginning as creating sprites for every Pokemon would have been complicated, but they have no excuse now with the modern games.
“generation 4 is where it started to get a little crazy” Gen 3 with surf, dive and waterfall: “Make your choice of water type to use as an effective HM slave”
Honestly I almost feel like hoenn gets away with it, simply because there's never another pokemon game where having a water type feels as good of an idea Plus it helps hoenn has a lot of options for your water type of choice Cough and that surf is so good that having surf, two worse surfs, and one coverage move is still a good moveset in hoenn
Funnily enough, in Kanto Cut is only *_required_* for the story once, and that's to access Route 9. As Surge is only needed for Flash and Victory Road, he is completely skippable until you have access to Surf, meaning you only *_require_* the single use of it
What about the tree to the right of vermillion (mistys gym idk if that's the right city sorry) I thought that needed to be cut to get to the cave with flash? So that and the the electric gym which needs a tree to be cut to beat it, wouldn't that make it two in the originals and remakes (fire red and leaf green idk if they did it with go never played it) and I mean this nicely and genuinely I know comments on here can be fasicious
@@NBG9809 so you need cut just next to Cerulean (Next to Misty's gym, like you thought), then to get to the cave you can either use cut or go the longer way around. And as I said in my first post, you can leave Surge's Gym until you have Surf, as you can get through the cave without Flash
I think for Paldea specifically, the lack of "side areas" is that you need "main areas" for the side areas to actually feel like side areas, but due to Paldea's open world nature, there really aren't any main areas, thereby really removing a lot of the "side area" feel from the side areas.
I think you made your own counterpoint in the video: its not a question of HMs vs ride pokemon, but of the frequency of side areas and incentives for exploration. You are absolutely right that these have become fewer and farther between. This is especially true in Paldea, as the ride abilities can be obtained in any order (not to mention, you can really get anywhere you want immediately with backwards long jumps)
@@joshuab3918they are not. The titans have different levels, and it’s generally easier to go in ascending level order, but you can level grind/ cheese the battles to get them out of level order
@@joshuab3918 This is false. If you defeat the Open Sky Titan, you'll ALWAYS get the ability to swim. It doesn't matter if you fought it first, third, or last. The Lurking Steel Titan will always get higher jumps, the False Dragon Titan will always get you the ability to climb.
@@UncalibratedAimbot I think he was trying to say it doesn't matter which titan you beat first you'll get dash as your first upgrade, but that's also incorrect.
It's important to remind that the key reason why HM's moves were not removable by the player like the usual moves was to prevent annoying bugs. I mean, what if you're using Surf and then your surf pokemon levels up and in order to learn a new move you delete Surf? What would have happened to the game then? The problem (especially in gen 3 and 4) was that too many hm features were required at the same time. But I would also say that in gen 4 this is not a real problem since it is not too difficult to obtain Heart Scales
I feel like the BEST example of using HMs to explore previously inaccessible places is when you get surf and you can finally explore the water path Mr. Briney passes by on your way to Dewford, which includes the Abandoned Ship!!
i like how lets go, arceus, and scarlet/violet have done it. unlocking the skills to do the exploration by upgrading the player character, not specific pokemon in your party. your point on a lack of unlockable, explorable areas is valid though.
The way arceus handles moves where you can swap out any learned moves on the fly without a move deleter, rememberer or heart scales right from your menu already solved the HM issue.
Role playing is my main reason for liking them. The idea of using a Pokemon's move outside of battle is just an inherently cool gameplay hook, even if the mechanics are simple. To me, that's one of the closest the games have gotten to simulating an actual navigable world and not a collection of levels, and it makes your Pokemon feel like actual living things with a physical presence instead of units in a game. Ride Pokemon do fit that same concept, but something about finding a non-combat use of a move is really compelling to me, and I especially like my own Pokemon doing it.
Sun and Moon definitely has areas you encounter early on with water or rocks blocking your way that you can only navigate later on when you get the appropriate ride Pokémon. HMs effectively make some of your Pokémon only have 2 or 3 available move slots. Or even cutting off an entire place on your team. Which definitely hampers your fun. Ride Pokémon fulfill the same “inspiration to adventure” without also hampering fun by forcing you to have moves you don’t want.
Agreed. S/M's Poké Ride was a disgusting display of animal cruelty and enslavement, with the Ride Pokémon having *no other purpose* than to bypass obstacles. LGP/LGE's Secret Techniques were fine, but they would have been better if you could teach them to every Pokémon. Then we have Sw/Sh. This replacement was objectively appalling. I know not how anyone could like the idea of dampening progression just for convenience. BD/SP's HM app was just stupid. _'Hey, Mr Bibarel, sir, could I just borrow you for a second? I can't be bothered to teach my Luxray Strength, so could you shove aside that big stone for us, please? Thank you!'_ LA's Nobles were justified by the lack of knowledge and technology at that point in time, but under no other circumstances would this be good execution. And finally, S/V's Herba Mystica was a good idea, but it was so integrated into the plot that I doubt that GF would be able to repeat something similar without basically making the same game again and again ad infinitum with a new coat of paint each time. I am dreading LZA's approach.
@@Mystmon *"S/M's Poké Ride was a disgusting display of animal cruelty and enslavement, with the Ride Pokémon having no other purpose than to bypass obstacles."* It isn't, at all. You have to bond with said Pokemon to be able to use their Ride Ability. Besides, couldn't we say the same thing about Pokemon that are destined to be used for HMs and nothing else?. *"I know not how anyone could like the idea of dampening progression just for convenience."* You tell me, you are the one that is basically making said argument. *"BD/SP's HM app was just stupid."* Oh yeah, because a better idea is to hamper the Moves my own Pokemon can use, right?.
@@toumabyakuya > *_'It isn't, at all. You have to bond with said Pokemon to be able to use their Ride Ability.'_* True, but said bond would be significantly stronger if you could also use them in battle or Refresh. > *_'Besides, couldn't we say the same thing about Pokemon that are destined to be used for HMs and nothing else?.'_* Yes, but that was simply the _suggested_ solution - you could distribute the HMs evenly across your team if you really wanted to. What I hate is that this 'enslavement' was _necessitated_ in S/M. > *_'You tell me, you are the one that is basically making said argument.'_* Because what better way is there to amend a decent-on-paper-but-poorly-executed mechanic (HMs) than to make the region bland, empty and uninteresting? > *_'Oh yeah, because a better idea is to hamper the Moves my own Pokemon can use, right?.'_* No, a better idea is to implement something like Secret Techniques from LGP/LGE. I do not expect GF to go to extremes (like in D/P/Pt), but I also do not expect GF to patch up an issue with another issue.
@@Mystmon *"True, but said bond would be significantly stronger if you could also use them in battle or Refresh."* ...said which Pokemon character? Or is this only your headcanon? Because I am free to disagree with the latter. *"Yes, but that was simply the suggested solution"* And the best solution as well, otherwise you are damaging the moveset of every single one of your teammates, not a good solution. *"What I hate is that this 'enslavement' was necessitated in S/M."* Again, the same thing could be said about HMs, especially in Hoenn and Sinnoh. *"Because what better way is there to amend a decent-on-paper-but-poorly-executed mechanic (HMs) than to make the region bland, empty and uninteresting?"* For me, this beats all the cons of HMs any day of the week. I simply do not like HMs at all. *"No, a better idea is to implement something like Secret Techniques from LGP/LGE."* Now this I agree with. *"I do not expect GF to go to extremes (like in D/P/Pt), but I also do not expect GF to patch up an issue with another issue."* Thing is that HMs are flawed by nature. The only way to fix them is to remove them entirely.
@@toumabyakuya > *_'...said which Pokemon character?'_* I would understand if anyone who chooses to use an 'HM Mule' would agree with this as well. They generally bond more with Pokémon that they don't reserve entirely for HMs/can use in battle. > *_'And the best solution as well, otherwise you are damaging the moveset of every single one of your teammates, not a good solution.';_* *_'Again, the same thing could be said about HMs, especially in Hoenn and Sinnoh.';_* *_'Thing is that HMs are flawed by nature. The only way to fix them is to remove them entirely.'_* As I stated previously, I do not expect GF to go to extremes. I would rather have that extra layer of bonding with my Pokémon without allocating them entirely to non-battle purposes. > *_'For me, this beats all the cons of HMs any day of the week. I simply do not like HMs at all.'_* Fair enough, I understand and respect that.
I'm fine with HMs as long as they don't feel like they're hindering my options for an ingame team. Like cut, surf, and strength are usually available on a wide variety of pokemon that make sense to have those moves. Big strong pokemon can learn strength, pokemon with claws can learn cut, and water types can learn surf. It doesn't feel limiting because I can usually find a team member who can learn them without needing an HM slave to take up a whole slot. But then there are moves like waterfall in gen 2, where it cannot be learned by like half of the water types for some reason. Worst of all, Feraligatr can't even learn waterfall, meaning you'd either have to ditch your starter for Victory Road, or carry a whole separate water type with you, which is such a baffling design decision that I genuinely wonder if it was an oversight. Charizard learning fly is another example, but at least that one was fixed in Yellow.
One thing you didn't mention is that pokemons over the generations got better movepools, especially with the physical/special split in Gen4, the move tutors in platinum, etc. This makes HMs even less attractive since they directly compete with potentially good moves that your pokemon could learn instead. For example, Manectric in Gen3 only learns Bite/Crunch as a non-stab move, meaning it's not that big of a deal to have him learn Flash. Compare this with Electivire who can learn Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Psychic, Rock Slide, Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Focus Blast or even Signal Beam; it's hard to choose your 4 moves, there's no way you're getting an HM on that.
Personally my favorite application of hms is Black and White. Cut is necessary right after you get it then no mandatory hms the rest if the game. However, if you choose to explore all the optional areas then hms will be necessary for that. Hms were merely a tool to gain access to cool items, pokemon, and locations
Fun Fact: Waterfall did exist in Gen 1 as a move but only two could learn it. They are the weakest Water type pokemon Goldeen and Seaking. Goldeen could learn Waterfall before evolving while Seaking learns it after evolving at level 39!
Yes and pokemon ride literally does all of that but it's less annoying. Plus most HMs are trash anyway so people just find HM slaves and bring them along when they want one of the hidden items. Nobody cares about HM slaves so Gamefreak replaced they with something that serves the exact same function but it's less annoying
I overall agree and will go one step further: HMs were meant to be a union of battle and exploration, a vehicle through which your own Pokémon could help you traverse the world and reach your goal (becoming Champion) while you helped them grow as well (trained Pokémon grow better than wild ones, are able to use their moves better, learn new ones, evolve, etc.). This is why Victory Roads were often heavy on HMs, as they were also supposed to test your traversal skills, not just your battle ones, and why Sinnoh especially had so many: you have the *option* of using Pokémon dedicated to HMs, but you're generally meant to implement them into your team, which therefore has to be more varied to incorporate all of them. You're also not supposed to have all of your resources all the time, so you can either choose to slightly gimp your movesets or outright bring on a weaker team member to accommodate for traversal. These games see their challenge through resource management, and this system tied into that. Not being able to delete them on the fly has to do with how maps are designed and avoiding players getting softlocked, especially Gen 6 onward where you can trade from anywhere in the world and therefore you might technically, say, get stuck on an island if you trade away your only Surf user and aren't able to catch any more. I agree that their telegraphing wasn't always the best; this is why I'd personally add a feature on the Town Map that, alongside an area's description, also tells you which HMs are required to go through it and which ones are optional; the same thing could also be applied to each location's signpost, treating them like a tourist map of sorts.
The perfect fix is right in their name, "Hidden" Moves, make it so that once you have the HM, and the ability to use the move outside of battle, allow any Pokemon capable of learning it to just use the out of battle effect. It was locking Pokemon into having to learn it that made people ask to move away from them (and what lead Gamefreak to go all Nintendo on that and move away from every aspect of the system not just the bad parts) But by making it a function it would have prevented the need for Ride Pokemon and would allow you to use your own Pokemon
If all HM's were as strong as Surf and Waterfall or had great utility like New Defog or even Flash, I don't think they would be that huge of a problem. Fly and Dive should stay 2 turn moves as that's unique but maybe a buff in Power, Cut should be like 70 Power, Rock Smash should have a 100% chance to lower Defense(or be a TM like X and Y), and *ROCK CLIMB SHOULD HAVE 100% ACCURACY.* Whirlpool just shouldn't be an HM. Although I actually really like how they did HM's in BDSP. Ride Pokémon don't really do it for me so letting me choose between having the HM on my Pokémon or a permanent HM Slave App that progresses exactly like the old HM system. It's a shame that *MOVING* sucks in BDSP.
It is pretty funny to me how HMs went from everyone’s least favorite thing ever, to being removed entirely to almost unanimous applause, to now being a thing that people miss after it’s been gone for awhile. That’s human nature for ya! 😂 but I actually do agree, it’s cool having your own team use the skills to access new areas and encounters. That should come back in a more refined form.
Fun fact, Cut is the only hm you are required to use in Pokemon Black & White. This is evident of the only required cut tree in the dreamyard, heans cut is the only required cut hm in Pokemon Black & White, making it the only game where a single hm is required in a pokemon game that has hms in them. What a unique game Black & White is only requiring one hm for the story being cut. This is evident by the single required cut tree in the dreamyard that... Can I end this bit now?
The problem I had with HMs was how many water ones there were. Throwing surf on a teammate never felt bad, fly was OK, and rattata was a good sacrificial pivot for learning the rest. Having to throw dive, waterfall, and whirlpool onto a water type threw any hope of coverage out the window for that teammate
I like HMs, but I wish all of them that were required to get past areas that were mandatory to progress (Cut in Kanto, Rock Smash in Sinnoh, Whirlpool in Whirl Islands and Dragon's Den and Surf in every region I believe) were a lot more widely available to learn across all the Pokemon so teambuilding didn't feel so restricted by almost forcing you to need to use certain Pokemon on your team. Cut is the only one that ever felt properly distributed to me for how it's used as it's almost always only needed to get to optional areas but it is still pretty widely distributed.
I agree 100% with you, HMs make the game almost feels like a metroidvania for me, backtracking to find hidden items and sometimes rare pokemon made the regions feel very alive and memorable. I do understand why people don't like them and they certainly could be executed better, maybe make the moves stronger or more useful in battle (some like surf and waterfall are great though). In recent replays I tend to spread them over my teammates as to not have to sacrifice a team slot for a dedicated HM mon, it works great, few are the times were I need all four move slots in casual playthroughs. Btw, great video as usual, love your content!
I'm a huge HM fan, I just wish they had better type distribution. Having a form of interaction with your Pokemon beyond fighting is great and simple worldbuilding, and incorperating them on your team encouraged team diversity. I think they're only bad when you have a situation where there are 3 water HMs and making a usable Water pokemon becomes a mess because of it, or a bunch of weak nornal moves. My number one solution would be moves that act as HM alternatives that make it so you don't need a specific move it doesn't auit you- Fury Cutter is a better-ish move than Cut and could be used to remove treea, or certain powerful Fighting moves could puah boulders, or so on, which would diversify options while still making you dependant on your team to navigate the world.
When put like that I could see it just going all the way by making any move affected by the Sharpness ability also function as Cut outside of battle. It solves the biggest problem of HMs, being that most of them are useless in battle and they bog down your team. Another example of this I can think of is kind of in Infinite Fusion, where they changed Teleport to function identically to Fly outside of battle, instead of only sending you to the last center you went to.
@@jonathanflanagan1504 Also probably just make surf do everything 😅 or any of the bugger water moves. if you didn't need Waterfall and Surf, just either or it'd be a huge improvement for viability
Make HMs learnable for out of battle purposes. Put them under their own tab in the Pokemons summary screen. Use it freely in the overworld without impacting your battle moces. They were fun for puzzles and exploration.
I think the biggest offender is fly. Having fast travel locked to an arbitrary list of flying types (why can't gliscor and Gyarados fly?) is really annoying and limits teambuilding greatly. If they brought hms back, I'd want them to be overhauled completely. You would go and learn secret techniques to get rid of certain optional obstacles, and you use your team to deal with them. If you encounter a tree, any Pokemon effective again grass would be able to destroy it. Very hot ground could be made walkable by water, ice, or ground types. Stuff like that would be fun and encourage unique team composition, without the limitations of hms.
If HMs were to come back, I think there could be some nice ways to buff them without them feeling so intrusive for many Cut - Make it steel type. Cut in Japanese is called "Iai Cut", because it's based on a sword technique. At least this way, cut wouldn't be immediately outclassed the moment you obtain it. Fly - Give it wider non-flying distribution (since it already received a damage buff in Gen 4) Surf - Keep the same (since it's already a great move) Strength - give it a small buff like 20% chance to increase attack by 1 stage Flash - Reduce it back to 70% accuracy, but make it so that it decrease accuracy by 2 stages instead Whirlpool/Waterfall - Give it wider distribution Rock Smash - Make it so that it always decreases defense Dive - Buff it to 120 power. You usually get Dive late enough in any game it's available to warrant such an increase in power.
There is that whole cavern and water area in SMUSUM that is hidden away. Where you can catch Mareanie and Bagon. You can use ride Pokémon in the same method as HMs in hiding away secret areas.
The reason you can't delete HMs on your own is the same reason you can't release or trade a Pokemon with an HM: it prevents the player from softlocking themselves. Say you get to an area using an HM, and then you release the Pokemon with said HM; suddenly, you can get out, and if you dony have fly or an escape rope you might just have to scrap the save file entirely.
My opinion on HMs: Ok so... they're not that bad of a concept. The issue is that they're not as good as Surf, or the Gen 4+ variations of Waterfall and Flash. And Gen 3 and 4 especially screw them up... Gen 3 because of needing 3 water HMs one after the other in the endgame, and Gen 4 because just of how much there is, and how little you actually find useful. The best use of HMs imo is Black and White. The only mandatory one is the Dreamyard tree. The rest are just novelties that open up shortcuts or access to hidden nooks n' crannies. With how poorly executed they were, I am actually glad they were replaced by rides, as they do not limit the Pokémon you need or their movesets. You can travel with the most optimal stuff for a playthrough, without sacrificing anything. How would I improve HMs? Well... for starters, make the moves more useful. All being useful until the midgame, but either becoming a genuine option for the late game, or a niche that isn't the most optimal, but you could consider. And finally, not being too many. Maybe 4 or 5 moves... even 6 or 7 if we're feeling lengthy about it.
Personally I think the best way to do HMs is sort of like what BDSP did. (I can't believe I'm praising BDSP for something.) HMs are not required, but the obstacles are still there. If you want to use your own Pokemon to clear it, you can. I personally don't like the idea of using someone else's pokemon for my tasks, so I would prefer that we have tools we can use like in Infinite Fusion. I think that would satisfy everyone except for HM purists who believe I should waste 2 party slots on Pokemon who only use HMs.
I liked your points about it being a hint instead of hand holding. I've seen some other good suggestions in the comments, and I think with the Advent of accessing the box from anywhere in more recent games, allowing us to use a Pokemons HM from the box instead of it needing to be an active member in your party would be a good way around this.
How I would rework HMs -You don’t need any Pokemon to use any HMs (want to travel the world with a Magikarp? Go ahead) -if it’s Arceus/BDSP style of HM use then you can register a Pokemon in your boxes to one or more HM slots (of course you can’t have a magikarp use fly or a rapidash use surf) -if a Pokemon has an HM move learned (or a move that has an HM field effect) then you can select that Pokemon and have it use said move The intended effect is that you aren’t restricted if you don’t have certain Pokemon or moves but if you have certain Pokemon or moves then you can have your Pokemon help you out in the field, riding the Pokemon across land, across water, up walls, and across the sky (and through other possible obstacles like rocks, foliage, whirlpools, and pushable blockades)
I like HMs because they are a diegetic means of tying the player's abilities in the field to the Pokemon themselves. They are similar to the dungeon items in Zelda games, or brush techniques in Okami. You are rewarded for catching more Pokemon, and more importantly, your actual team that you chose to catch (choice being important; not a fan of Koraidon/Miraidon in SV) is helping you explore the world. This is why I particularly hated Ride Pokemon in Sun & Moon and the Latis in ORAS. Whose Charizard is that? Whose Mudsdale is that? Not mine. Is Tauros even in this game? I never had the experience of being "turned away" because of not having a Pokemon ON ME even though I DID have the HM. As soon as I got an HM, I assumed it would be needed for any difficult route or cave coming up. OF COURSE the final trial before the Elite 4, called "Victory Road", would need Strength - why wouldn't it? On the other hand, I did absolutely hate Flash & Rock Smash in Gen 2 specifically, since they WEREN'T HMs, but instead "field move TMs". (I'm fine with field moves like Sweet Scent or Dig, since those aren't used for traversal / progression / exploration.) A move being tied to an HM should be a signal of its importance, and be a 1-to-1 association as such. What I would do is either: 1. simply make the HM moves better in-battle (eg., make Cut a Bug-type version of Slash/Night Slash/Psycho Cut, make Rock Smash always lower Defense, make Flash a damaging Electric-type move, etc.) 2. have HMs not be learnable moves, but techniques that you must simply have a compatible Pokemon in your party in order to use.
The issue with HM's is the clash between battle moves and travelling tools. Lately, whenever I replay old pokemon games, I found that rotating my party and making a dedicated pokemon for HM's isn't so bad because it incentivises me to explore more of the region at my own pace. I don't shoot straight for the league nowadays. So I find pleasure in just exploring for the sake of exploration and getting rewarded for doing so. Hoenn may ask you for like 8 HM's, but imo, this is the region that best utilized them. Because many of these unlock shortcuts that allow you to traverse through the region rather quickly. For example: route 103 is connected with route 110 through surf, so I can go from Oldale to Mauville or Slateport in less than a minute after taking that shortcut. Rock smash creates a shortcut from Verdanturf to Rustboro. Up from Rustboro you get to route 115 and with surf you can get to Meteor Falls and from there get to the north of the region easily. Remember the Mr. Briney boat travel? Yeah once you get surf you can go from Slateport to Dewford, and from there back to route 104 in one big route. Or how about the surf shortcut from route 121 to Mt. Pyre, down to route 123 and then getting back to mauville in no time, or you can also go to route 119 to get to Fortree City if you so desire. I rarely use fly (unless I REALLY want to cut time), because Hoenn as a region embraces hm's as fun travelling tools. Add this to my party rotation and it makes the game progression similar to that of a metroidvania, which is great! I spent HOURS of playtime optimizing my routing thru the main campaign many times. And effortlessly grinding resources and raising pokemon in the post-game. Because of how well Hoenn understands HM's as concept for the most part. With all of this being said, the issue was always the fact that these are fighting moves as well, and the hard commitment you have to make to even use them as travel tool, clash with the concept of hm's for exploration in a RPG journey. Yes you can make an HM slave and just rotate it in and out of your party like I do. But what if other people don't find this way of playing appealing? What about the people who are attached to their party or don't want to spend time going back to the Pokemon Center constantly? In this regard, HM's hardlocking themselves on your movesets without a move deleter, sucks the fun out of the overall game. And it doesn't help that many HM's just suck in battles. Why would I use Cut over other normal type moves like return or double edge? Why would I use flash when its benefits are about as good as string shot? It also doesn't help that sometimes, regions arbitrarily demand hm's in normal story progressionlike rock smash in hoenn's route 111, Victory road in most games, Whirlpool island in Soul Silver etc etc... I cannot stand the Gen 4 games specially, because of HM's slowing the already slow pace further down. HM's are a noble concept, but in execution, they never evolved past hardlocked moves that may allow exploration, but that required so much commitment out of your teambuilding. Despite SuMo's linear region design, the choice of these moves being separate from the pokemon's moveset was a godsend, and I loved my first playthrough of these games, because it was convenient to just worry about my battling team instead of getting a pokemon just dedicated to HM's. This should've been the main way of handling them imo. But too little too late, ever since SuMo, region design stopped being as elaborate as Hoenn or Kalos. It now favors open fields which can be fun no doubt. But a part of me feels frustrated because this mechanic which should be ESSENTIAL for region design, was not only handled poorly for many years, but completely forgotten once open world exploration started to become the mainstream. If pokemon goes back to set region map design, I hope that HM's are refined and convenient while still having good and interesting map design.
In a perfect world: Ride Pokemon can fill in the slot of Surf and Fly. Since HMs aren't unlearnable outside of Move Deleters _solely_ due to you potentially getting yourself stuck in areas by unlearning them then ditching the Pokemon, having Ride Pokemon cover for the movement HMs frees them up from that issue and lets them be overwritten. This way, Ride Pokemon and HMs can co-exist and cover each other's weaknesses - Ride Pokemon not being as much of a hassle to account for in story progression related obstacles, and HMs allowing you to use your own Pokemon with their own moves to traverse optional dungeons/side areas. Then, HMs could be boosted up to not be dogwater in battle. Cut could be a Flying type move with 60 bp in the same vein as Aerial Ace (Fun Fact: Aerial Ace is named after a specific sword technique in the Japanese versions. This is why I tend to relate Cut to it, and think Cut would fit as a Flying type move more than a Bug type move. Both are Scyther STAB anyways, so it works out), Strength could be a 100 bp Normal type move to cover for Return's absence, Rock Smash could be a 60 bp move with a guaranteed Defense drop instead of only a 50% chance, Whirlpool could work like Salt Cure and remain on the opponent as background dps even after the user switches - losing its trapping capabilities to do so but also becoming 40 bp and 100% accuracy due to being a Salt Cure variant, and Rock Climb could be a Ground type move akin to Bulldoze and Stomping Tantrum with 90 bp and 100% accuracy without the chance to confuse. Additionally, every three to five routes could contain a decently sized side area that requires a handful of HMs to traverse that eventually leads to a room or set of rooms that contain a decent haul of "loot," as in a couple of medicine items, pokeballs, and a "big treasure." Said "big treasure" could either be a valuable TM (so _not Double Team)_ or a way to encounter a Pokemon exclusive to the area. Again, that's in a "perfect world" game. Enough exploration to satiate the call to adventure, but not too much branching paths that have players who don't run all HMs feel forced to use them (or at least feel forced to run mons that could learn them). And enough ease of use for traversal methods that are obtained after certain points of progression, while still requiring potential resource use and interaction with your party to fully payout with the rewards the map has to offer.
i honestly liked having hms cus it posed you either a challenge to make sure a user was in your party, or sacrifice a spot in place of a “utility mon” as many have alluded to already, the problem was that the HMS were buttjuice as in-battle moves, aside from surf and maybe fly.
I fully believe that with the current systems, hms could be brought back right now and they wouldn't be an issue. You can delete and relearn moves right from your party menu, but to mention you have access to the pc on the go. Just make tms infinite use again and make sure every hm is obtained by playing the game and has actual meaningful exploration opportunities, and they're suddenly an amazing system without any real drawbacks
I have two issues with HMs that I don't see mentioned often: - Most of the HMs could be replaced by items you carry. Cut = gardening scissors. Surf = surfing board. Strenght = crowbar. Flash = flashlight. Etc. This way you don't even need to tie its use to a specific badge. These would be key items you receive at specific moments in the story. - Some HMs were pretty specific. Flash only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Defog only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Dive only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Whirlpool... you get the idea. If I'm going to sacrifice a move slot for an HM, I would expect to use that move consistently for the rest of the game. Also I hate that some moves need constant use. When I'm not looking the tree I just cut and the rock I just destroyed magically reappeared. Why? I understand the case for rocks, as sometimes you get rewards for breaking them, but I think there should be a difference between obstacle rocks that should remain broken vs optional rocks that respawn. Gen 3 did this with the rocks in Rusturf tunnel, that never respawn. However any time I try to leave Mauville city to the north I need to have a rock smash pokemon with me. Why? Also, cut plants should never regrow, there is no reason for it other than annoy the player if they revisit a zone. The same goes for strength puzzles. I like how gen 5 did them, once you move a stone, it will fall into a hole and remain there forever, meaning strength would eventually become unnecesary. I think HMs would be more tolerable if all of them were like that, once you fully explore a zone you know that you'll never need an HM to come back (maybe surf only).
One other thing I forgot to add is that GF threw out the baby with the bath water when removing HMs. They also removed every field move. I have never seen any person complain about dig, teleport or sweet scent. It's a shame we lost their OoB use.
I kinda like the idea of HMs for exclusively optional content- that exploration is nice. The only HM I 100% want to stay as a feature you always have access to is Fly- I HATE having to sacrifice a move or team slot just to be able to fast travel.
The main problem that I have with HMs that compared to other turn-based RPGs is due to Pokémon being very restrictive with the number of moves Pokémon can have usable at any given time has been 4 since generation 1. So, in order to traverse places you must permanently, unless you go to a Move Deleter, sacrifice one or more of your Pokémon's available moves that you cannot change out with newer moves to give them certain roles. Unless it is a very viable move, I will have one or two Pokémon be designated to learn HMs exclusively for traversal purposes. I was even confused why it was designed this way as a kid. I always thought it would make more sense that when you defeat a gym leader said gym leader would "teach" you how to teach your Pokémon to do certain things outside of combat that applies to certain Pokémon and you just need to find out which Pokémon knows which one or ones. No. Instead, as I kid, I wondered how do I get passed X thing, made the deduction that I need to defeat the gym leader first to get access to a certain HM to use, beat the gym leader and they hand me moves that I never end up teaching to any of my Pokémon, frantically waste an hour trying to figure out where I find the HM sometimes, learn that Pokémon taught an HM cannot have the move removed/overwritten except by a specific NPC, and lastly finding Pokémon that I don't care about to learn HMs. Now that I am older, as a risk versus reward unintentionally designed in Gen 6 and prior. Do you take as many Pokémon with you that know HMs so that you can easily traverse without backtracking but limit the number of battle-ready Pokémon you can bring with you? Or, do you bring only certain ones (like Surf) and risk having to go back to a Pokémon Center to switch out your party. I just think it's neat.
scarificing a moveslot on your main mons is also bad because that means whenever youre exploring the region or need space in your party for a different mon to evolve that usually means you gotta keep most of your team intact so it makes it really hard to go anywhere
I think we can all agree that Surf and Fly are the HMs everybody is actually fine with. As a kid, planning out which pokemon would be my Surf user and which would be my dedicated Flying-type was a fun part of team building. The problem is that the rest of the HMs just aren't fun to have. Nobody gets excited for these normal-type Cuts, Strengths, Rock Climbs, and having multiple Water-type HMs is just not fun. My proposed changes: Flash - Gone, but any light-based move fills the same role. Cut - Replace with Uproot, a 70 power Ground move that is super effective against grass-types. Waterfall - Replace with Ascend, a 90 power Dragon move that can be learned by dragon-like, serpent-like, and some fish-like pokemon. Rock Climb - Make it a Rock move. I think adding more flavor to these moves makes them much more bearable.
My best idea to "Fix" HM's would be a few things. First, make them all nearly as usable as Surf. Maybe not as good, but nearly. Something like Cut becoming a bug type move with 60-80 base power, strength becoming a fighting type move, rock climb becoming a rock type move. Second, I want certain TM's, other moves, or possibly even abilities to become valid replacements for HM's. Something like knowing Brave Bird instead of requiring fly. Leaf blade instead of Cut. Or, the abilities Hyper Cutter or Sharpness instead of Cut. Brick break instead of Rock Smash. If these sorts of changes existed, HM's would quickly lose their sting, as you'd have a multitude of options for traversing the land, and wouldn't need to bog down your team with bad moves.
Personally what I miss about HMs aside from what it brought to the map design is the puzzles you'd get from HM's such as strength. I loved the trick house in Hoenn, or the routes 225 to 230 in Sinnoh, and part of what made them so great is the use of HMs and how they would be completely impossible to replicate today. I think that HMs should have stayed and just made removable and be buffed to be actually good moves. An additional way would have been to either make them a secret 5th move or to make them a passive ability of certain Pokémon.
I think each Pokémon should have two movesets: one for battle moves and another one for field moves. I'd go a bit further and replace some items with field moves, like Odor Sleuth taking the place of the Itemfinder. Using your team for things other than battling is a very cool aspect of the franchise, shame it got removed.
i like that field moves make pokemon feel more like real companions than just tools for battle. using my pokemon to deal with an obstacle makes me feel like a crafty outdoorsman or something. the whole summoning thing in newer gens just cannot create that same feeling and diminishes the usefulness of your party outside of battle. i want to rely on the 6 pokemon i have on me. obviously, the whole "HM slave" thing needs to be mitigated. in my opinion, they should have made it so that you didn't actually need to teach an HM to a pokemon to use the move outside of battle, just require that the pokemon *can* learn it. instead of being handicapped by having one party slot going to a bidoof with mediocre moves, you could just have *a* bidoof with decent moves. obviously machamp can punch a rock. why do you need a move for this?
I genuinely like the concept of HMs, but I also think now that we can change our Pokémon moves at any time, just having taught the Pokémon the move, even if its not one of the active 4 moves should be enough in any remakes going forward. Let me make an HM Slave that is actually usable.
I'd honestly be totally fine with HM's if the moves were at least varied enough to provide good early/mid-game coverage (I enjoy when rom hacks make Cut a grass move), and if you could delete them without the need of an NPC. That would of course require the game to have good soft-lock solutions in case I decide to delete strength when I'm trapped between two boulders, or release all my water mons on an island in the middle of the ocean. But I feel like they could find a way.
I never understood all the HM hate. Sure it’s annoying that you can’t replace them at will, but in HM games I get way more immersed when my team and move choices can expand my basic traversal abilities.
If there was more variety in the typings of the HMs, I wouldn't begrudge them. For example, Cut as a Grass / Bug type move, Rock Climb as a Rock / Fighting (or even Ground, oddly feels fitting), and a replacement of a Water move for an Ice or Steel move... This diversity would mean I would have to make compromises on the attacks I have, but not necessarily the Pokemon I use.
I agree that HMs do help make the world more immersive and explorable. There is a simple solution that I am surprised Game Freak never thought of. Make more HMs! This may sound crazy, but hear me out. The standard HMS(Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, etc.) will still be there, but the player can obtain new HMs through exploring. The new HMS will effectively replace the old HMs. For example, players will receive HM Cut in the beginning. Around the fifth badge, players will obtain the upgraded version of Cut, Slash. This will allow the classic exploration while not wasting a precious move slot.
The way moves are handled in Arceus already solves the issue of HMs in a game with Ride Pokemon..... Swap out whatever learned moves right from the menu without a move deleter, rememberer or heart scales.
That's one thing I didn't bring up that would have been worth getting into, how things like key items or modes of transportation in other JRPGs allow the world to open up, it would be nice if similar design was done for Pokemon progression without forcing it on the Pokémon's moveset itself
What I thought was cool in gen 5 flash was in a alley way because a dude couldn’t find something and you can use it to see in cave to get the cobalion it’s a life saver
Gens 7,8, and 9 have loads of content and secrets if u know where to look Like in the gen 9 dlc in the area zero underdepths there’s a hidden room that u have to go out of your way to look for to open
FireRed & LeafGreen were when HMs were at their peak you were expected to carry 6 of them at all times & waterfall if you ever wanted to go to the 4 Island Cave or take a shortcut on 2 Island. Heart Gold & Soul Silver could have been cruel & had Defog stay as HM05 with Whirlpool being HM09 thankfully there will never be an official game with more than 8 of them. Still I'm curious how a Foggy Red Battle would have been. 1 of the coolest thing about HMs being learned is you could get to some cool places early. SS Anne is a place you don''t need to make depart if you trade to get a Pokemon with Cut. Likewise I remember getting a traded Oshawott with Surf in Gen 5 near the start of the game which was cool as well.
They should've allowed the Pokémon who learned HMs to retain the ability to use it on the over world even after it's deleted. that way there's some decision in sacrificing a moveslot early in the game and still allowing full movesets after getting to the move deleter. I think that's a fair middle ground.
Personally, I think HM’s should have never left. But should have been reworked to still be taught to a Pokemon, but only affect the overworld and not take up a moveslot. For example, Cut should be teachable to any pokemon with something sharp on them. This would encourage team diversity in a more organic way than have an HM slave ready to be swapped whenever you enter a cave or something
I will never understand why they didn't just make HM moves innate abilities. Take Scyther for example: once you unlock the badge that lets you use Cut, Scyther can just always Cut outside of battle. You can use the HM on it if you want him to use Cut in battle, but otherwise it's just an ability of that Pokemon. Once you unlock the badge for Fly, either Scyther could innately use both outside of battle, or restrict each Pokemon to a single HM move that fits it best. When they introduced natures and abilities, I was convinced this was the next logical step that just never came.
I feel like they should have just distributed the skills of HMs to more moves! Have Flamethrower, Thundershock or moonblast? You have Flash now. You have Slash, Night Slash or Psycho Cut? You have Cut. All you have to do is earn the license to use the moves in this way. (which isn't any weirder than needing a move to sit on a lapras for Surf)
I wish HM's in Gens 1-4 were like Gen 5 TM's. Infinite use and forgettable. Edit: I know they are already infinite use and there are move deleters (besides gen 1), but it would be nice to change your moveset whenever you'd like.
Yeah, that's really a big problem with HMs is just how annoying they are to manage as part of a moveset, it would be nice if you had the option to remove them and teach over them whenever you want like moves in Legends Arceus and Scarlet and Violet
I think something like only requiring the player to have an eligible Pokemon in their party to use the HM could work as some kind of middle ground. Something funny is in newer games like SWSH and SV you always have access to your PC boxes, meaning any kind of problem that would arise by not having a Pokemon with the right HM in your party would be avoided completely had those games actually had HMs lol
I'm so torn on HMs. I love the feeling that me and my Pokemon are on an adventure together, but it limits team building and moveset diversity so much. My thought was that once you unlock an HM, your Pokemon could use it outside of battle, even if they get the move deleted, though that might be unintuitive. I think Paldea met a good midpoint in that. You definitely get more of a connection to Koraidon or Miraidon than say, a ride Pokemon, but it still doesn't take up a party member or move slot
I enjoyed HMs for puzzle solving and as you say making it my adventure. Ride Pokemon spontaneously appearing is weird. I get why HMs had transfer or overwrite restrictions, to not soft lock by accident. But I think that could be resolved by 2 mechanics: Emergency Services like Animal Crossing has to bring you from anywhere back home. I say home because last Pokemon Center may not be sufficient. Imagine being on Pacifidlog Town with no rods or water types whom to teach Surf. The next mechanic would be pity pokeballs, where when at too little money the professor at hometown would be able to gift you some pokeballs and you can catch an HM user again.
Personally how i would have done it would be, pokemon can learn / use various feild moves regardless of it being an attack move. Ofcourse this still means you need them in your party but atleast theyre not HM slaves so to speak. Then you could have the more recent "ride pokemon" as a sort of quality of life unlockable that you can call upon at any time. Maybe the feild moves are freely useable or maybe you can gate it behind you need to unlock a particular badge. Or maybe you have to have a trainer mastery system, where the pokemon upgrade these moves; surfing, then upgrading to go against whirlpools, waterfall or tides etc. You could also have where there are puzzles, perhaps some nearby pokemon could learn these moves (would make sense for the environment). Though... that could be considered unnecessary steps
Flash should be the in-battle move Thunderwave. However you wish to name, make them the same. That way it would be insanely useful in-battle and always on hand.
A kid at my school somehow got a Mew on RBY which he shared with everyone in my class via the Gen 1 Trade Cloning glitch. But just to be cruel he taught this Mew: Flash, Fly, Strength and Cut so every kid in my class had a disappointing HM slave. Thankfully Gen 2 Move Deleter was able to fix my Mew eventually
I think a big problem people have with hms is more of an end result effect. Look at cut for example, its bad but its usually the first hm you get and usually not needed later down the line so by the time you wanna get rid of it you can visit the move deleted, but because its bad by the end of the game people say its bad but in actuality its just set to be par with the area your in. Plus I think hm slaves are a stupid concept because its better to have 6 Pokémon, 1 with each required hm with the few bad hms there then to have 5 Pokémon and 1 dead weight. You still have the same amount of Pokémon moves, just less Pokémon. Another thing you didn't mention is that if limits the team. Say you don't like any of the water types but your required to use surf so now you gotta have a water type, I get that but I also don't because some hms are very diverse. And hms are 1 of 4 types, water, normal, flying, and fighting. I want HMs back in the game buf i think they need to be changed, for example I always thought if was stupid that a Pokémon sith the hm strength could push rocks but not break them so I think his should be lowered to 4 hms and they start bad but can be upgraded over time. Give each 4 versions, so 3 upgrades. They can gain strength and also overworld abilities. Heres what I got for these techniques. Cut technique - normal type - cut vines, cut bushes, cut logs, cut trees. Strength technique - fighting type - smashes small rocks, pushes small rocks, rock climb, push big rocks. Flying technique - flying type - soar over small gaps, fly to different places, defog an area, repel Pokémon. Surf technique - water type - surf over bodies of water, clear whirlpools, climb waterfalls, dive underwater.
Hms basically gave gameplay limitations where there shouldnt be any. You can have a team of 6 pokemon with 4 moves each only you need to replace 5-8 of those 24 moveslots with a basically useless move (few notible exceptions). OR you have a team of 4 with 2 hm slaves. And you cant just quickly deal with some obstacles and forget them for better moves later down the line unless you go to the move relearner (which didnt even exist in gen 1). Also that only works for some of the HMs since depending on the game youll need a good chunk of em throughout the entire experience. There were so many easy fixes but as it stood for over 15 years (just mind boggling) it was a MASSIVE gameplay flaw
I cannot stand HMs but I hate even more the S&M change, it doesn’t make sense to me but I do like how in Gen 1&2 there’s an HM required that you just kinda find. Feels more immersive
As a kid I HATED HM moves because they were so bad to use in battle. Like getting around the world in creative ways was cool until you have to get rid of move for Flash. As an adult I grew to appreciate more of what these moves meant for the overall game design. I still prefer ride Pokemon JUST because they are more general upgrades that don't effect my team. What wish they did (which would of been way better imo) was make it so "Oh you have THIS HM move, well you need this Pokemon in your party to use it". Notice how I said use it and not TEACH IT. I think HMs should work where they check if you have the right Pokemon to use it, then let use the move as if it was taught to the Pokemon. That way you can have the best of both worlds. Gen 4 remakes should of done that tbh but instead we just get the Poketch app. Either way I prefer how the ride upgrades were done in Gen 9 and I hope they do more of that. I just wish Gen 9's world was worth exploring more. It felt kind of empty, even after you got the ability to go to new areas.
honestly one of the main things i hated and still hate about early gens were the execution of HMs, I am so happy theyre gone. Also I think ride pokemon serve the same thing as most HMs, its just different in how it's executed. Instead of teaching and using a move slot for it on a pokemon, its separately on a pokemon you can always access. I just view it as way more convenient personally. Edit: I think the issue of exploration is really a game design issue in which one game doesn't present many options as say in other games
There is a huge other reason why the new games don't have HMs. It wouldn't translate easily to 3d. It would need models and animations for every Pokemon that could use any HM,. Maybe for cut or fly they could figure out a workaround with black screens like in the older games, but surf would be a real hassle. Just like every other aspect of the games, it has been gutted for the fruitless switch to 3d. Also, the only complaint I have ever heard about HMs is that they use up moveslots, or something directly linked to that. And the solution has been staring GameFreak in the face from the very beginning. It is so blindingly obvious that any other developer would have seized it much earlier. Simply allow HMs to be used without a Pokemon actually learning the move. Make them key items that check if a Pokemon in the party could learn the move, and if so, that Pokemon would be used without actually teaching the move. I'm sure this would have been possible in gen2, in gen3 by the latest. Since that was a bit of a fresh start anyway, it would have been a great opportunity. You would still need to pay attention to your party a bit, but I think almost everyone would have potential HM users with them without even trying. This would have solved just about all the issues with HMs while still maintaining the immersion of having your own Pokemon help you outside of battle.
I think you've got a point somewhere in here but I really don't think your problems with the newer gens' game design have that much to do with HMs. Let's Go Eevee/Pikachu managed to achieve the same usage of Metroidvania mechanics (as far as I know the layout is exactly the same as regular Kanto) while also replacing HMs with "secret techniques" that don't take up move slots. They're still abilities you don't have access to at first that you can use in various areas of the game, but the functionality is closer to Ride Pokémon than it is to HMs. You can have clever and interesting Metroidvania-style design even with the new HM replacements. How well the games actually achieve that is a different story, but I wouldn't say that problem is primarily to do with HMs. Fans have all sorts of complaints about how much hand-holding the Pokémon games have started doing, and most of them aren't about exploration. Even if they had kept HMs instead of Ride Pokémon, I firmly believe it would have gone downhill the exact same way and to the exact same degree.
I never had a problem with HMs but I also never really played competitively. But even so, Fly and Surf are excellent moves, and Strength isn't terrible.
It could be solved so easily. Rock smash? Punching move. Cut? Cutting move. Surf? Well, surf is a good move so duh. But also make whirlpool and waterfall usable as surf. Same for strength, but to a lesser extend. The rest is really not necessary.
As soon as they got rid of HMs, they added a bunch of features and content that would make HMs really good. With the portable PC and the ability to relearn moves at any time, it’s almost impossible to soft lock yourself. If they brought them back, they could’ve made it where if a Pokémon learns the move once, it always has that HM ability without needing to remember the move, and if you didn’t have something like a surfer on your team, open up the PC at any time to grab one out of your boxes. And even if you released all of your HM Pokémon, the new open world maps mean there’s probably always going to be a Pokemon Center accessible on foot. They also added walking, running, swimming, and flying animations for every Pokemon. Instead of being stuck with a lizard that can do anything, or a ride Pokemon, we could finally actually ride our own Pokemon, see them cut down the tree, smash a rock in the open world, but nope. I want to connect with my Pokemon again, instead of having them be pure battle machines. It doesn’t help that the Pet simulator features got a massive downgrade imo with Camp and Picnics, but that’s a whole other discussion…
I think ridable pokemon/ the bike could’ve been used the same as HMs (adding extra optional exploration for you to come back to)….they just didn’t because of how Gen7 and 8 were designed.
If the damage dealing moves had the power of Surf, or the flinch chance of Waterfall, or the equalent effect of other decent moves, would help. Can't say much about Flash, as boosting your own evasion tends to be preferable, while Defog gaining its hazard removal effect, good in pvp, not so much in story if the AI never uses hazards.
Honestly, my biggest insuses whit those items is that they cannot be removed, i think that you needs the "you needs especific pokemons to move arround" fit rely well whit the themes of exploration and friendship. The problem to me was always the god awlful length dungeons whit insane amount of random encounters and oponent trainers that you can't turns down the battle like any victory road. A good alternative to HM for me is not the ride pokemons, rottom bike or Koraidon and Miraidon, the alternative always was to allows the pokemons to begin able to uses the hindem moves whit out actualy having then on the move list based on what the pokemon can (exemple, scyther haves blade arms so he can uses Cut, Lapras can swim so he can uses surf, machamp is string some he can uses rock smash and the list goes one)and the inclusion of tools to substitute some of the moves, like a dive suit to substitute the need of a dive HM or flash ligth to substitue the flash HM, and if you don't haves the proper pokemon you can just teachs the HM. This could be usedfull to make open world game or, if you still want a more linear experience, just limits the moves by eith finding the HM or having the badge.
I've never had a problem with HMs. Let's be real, none of the games that require HMs for progression are hard enough that you can't sacrifice the move slots even for your main party. Strenth, Surf, Fly, and Waterfall are all strong enough to actually be useful in battle. They might not be the best option available, but they are good enough. Flash can be situationally useful. Cut has a lot of PP if you want to farm some weaker pokemon for exp. The only truly useless HM is whirlpool.
The biggest problem with HMs is that the vast majority of them were terrible moves in-battle so you were basically forced to either hard nerf your team with near-useless moves, or bring on an 'HM slave' while being forced to outright leave a real team member behind. This was further aggravated by the fact that you could never replace the HM moves on your mons without the move deleter NPC, who literally only exists for this exact reason.
The original purpose of the move deleter was to allow players the trasfer of any gen 1 pokemon from GSC to RBY, which would fail if the pokemon knew any gen 2 move. It quickly became more popular for deleting HMs, but that wasn't its original purpose.
The only useful HM's in battle were Surf and Strength, and later on, Dive and Rock Climb. Due to how big Mt.Corenet is in Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, it required two HM slaves! Bibearl is the Best hm slave as it can learn all 5 required HM's: Rock Smash, Surf, Waterfall, Strength, and Rock Climb. My Bibearl in my Ice type run in Pearl had Rock Smash, Surf, Waterfall, and Rock Climb while my Mammoswine had Strength
Not with that attitude
@AgusSkywalker It wasn't the move deleter's _original_ purpose, but for Gen 3 and on it did pretty much become its only purpose.
But Pokémon has never been hard enough to force any optimization.
When I was a child, I completed Pokémon games just spreading my HMs around my whole team, and I only even consolidated because I genuinely though a flying-swimming-cutting-flashing Pokémon was a very cool idea. “What if my Pokémon was a car and a plane?”
If every HM was as good as surf then nobody would complain about them.
Not with that attitude
@@madnessarcade7447 What do you mean?
@@gregorymirabella1423make the most of what ur given to its fullest potential rather than complain about it
@@gregorymirabella1423anything can be good if u try and believe hard enough
@@madnessarcade7447Pretty hard to make the most of Cut and Flash (particularly in Gen 3 and before) when they are such dogshit moves.
I agree with you, the problem with HMs isn't the concept, but the execution, specially in gens 3 and 4. Having to sacrifice a spot in your team just for HMs is annoying, but the idea of having side/optional content because of them is always a good thing.
HM’s are supposed to create continuity of the world the player character exists in. It is a way of showing that your Pokemon exist in and interact with the world, that they’re not just battle sprites. Cut, at least in Gen 1, is the only bad HM move needed to progress, and the game goes out of its way to hint that you should use the move on a burner Pokemon. That’s why there’s a Pokemon centre right outside of Rock Tunnel, so you can store the Pokemon you only needed for Cut while giving you a new checkpoint to respawn at in a location where you don’t need Cut anymore. Fly, Strength, and Surf are good moves. Flash is optional and the game gives you Pokemon that can learn Flash in a patch of grass right near Rock Tunnel. This is also intentional. The game is trying to teach you to catch a wide variety of Pokemon because you might need them for something you didn’t think of.
However, the use of HM’s became bad game design in Gen 4.
I will continue to shill my idea that the best way to do HMs would be to let any pokemon who would be able to learn the HM just use it without needing to learn the move. This would help ensure that the player (probably a child) would have a variety of team members in order to have a more fair fight against different bosses which I feel was Game Freaks original design intentions with HMs.
I mostly say this because I really really dislike using random "ride pokemon" instead of my own team, that's so lame. The dumb outfits don't help that either lol
I approve of this.
I've been saying this for years. It's the perfect compromise.
Eh I wouldn't say this compromise is perfect. The current solution allows for unlimited team composition. You wanna play through the entire game with a single Magikarp? You can do that. With this, you still need to catch certain Pokemon to get access to the HMs. What if you don’t want a flying-type on your team? You're basically locked out of Fly. I understand why it's more appealing to have your own Pokemon help you traverse the world, which is why I feel the best solution would just be to make all HMs optional, maybe have a harder path by default that can be skipped by having a Pokemon with Strength. This way, you can still complete the game no matter your team comp, but the game still rewards you for having a diverse team and you still get the satisfaction of using your own Pokemon.
Maybe they could have implemented them similarly to how they did the special effects of the Pokeballs, with Ball Capsule stickers and stuff in Diamond and Pearl and the remakes, where it just gave you customization towards your own Pokemon and they could have done something similar with the HMs, where you could equip them with saddles and stuff to be able to use the HMs, and if you wanted to be fancy about it maybe make different styled saddles or harnesses purchasable in shops, as that would add style towards that functionality, but I understand why they couldn't implement it in the beginning as creating sprites for every Pokemon would have been complicated, but they have no excuse now with the modern games.
“generation 4 is where it started to get a little crazy”
Gen 3 with surf, dive and waterfall: “Make your choice of water type to use as an effective HM slave”
Fair point!
Looks like the common Swampert moveset.
Honestly I almost feel like hoenn gets away with it, simply because there's never another pokemon game where having a water type feels as good of an idea
Plus it helps hoenn has a lot of options for your water type of choice
Cough and that surf is so good that having surf, two worse surfs, and one coverage move is still a good moveset in hoenn
It'a a bit more tolerable when your Waterfall and Dive user is a shiny Tentacool
7.8/10
Funnily enough, in Kanto Cut is only *_required_* for the story once, and that's to access Route 9. As Surge is only needed for Flash and Victory Road, he is completely skippable until you have access to Surf, meaning you only *_require_* the single use of it
The same exact thing also happens in Black/White with the Dreamyard and that's it!
What about the tree to the right of vermillion (mistys gym idk if that's the right city sorry) I thought that needed to be cut to get to the cave with flash? So that and the the electric gym which needs a tree to be cut to beat it, wouldn't that make it two in the originals and remakes (fire red and leaf green idk if they did it with go never played it) and I mean this nicely and genuinely I know comments on here can be fasicious
@@NBG9809 so you need cut just next to Cerulean (Next to Misty's gym, like you thought), then to get to the cave you can either use cut or go the longer way around. And as I said in my first post, you can leave Surge's Gym until you have Surf, as you can get through the cave without Flash
actually surge badge is for fly not for flash
@@Laezar1 true, even less needed, but at least useable enough to make you want the third gym badge, for convenience
I think for Paldea specifically, the lack of "side areas" is that you need "main areas" for the side areas to actually feel like side areas, but due to Paldea's open world nature, there really aren't any main areas, thereby really removing a lot of the "side area" feel from the side areas.
You could consider every area not on a visible pathway to be a side area in Paldea.
I think you made your own counterpoint in the video: its not a question of HMs vs ride pokemon, but of the frequency of side areas and incentives for exploration.
You are absolutely right that these have become fewer and farther between. This is especially true in Paldea, as the ride abilities can be obtained in any order (not to mention, you can really get anywhere you want immediately with backwards long jumps)
The Paldea upgrades are in a fixed order
@@joshuab3918they are not. The titans have different levels, and it’s generally easier to go in ascending level order, but you can level grind/ cheese the battles to get them out of level order
@@joshuab3918 This is false. If you defeat the Open Sky Titan, you'll ALWAYS get the ability to swim. It doesn't matter if you fought it first, third, or last. The Lurking Steel Titan will always get higher jumps, the False Dragon Titan will always get you the ability to climb.
@@UncalibratedAimbot I think he was trying to say it doesn't matter which titan you beat first you'll get dash as your first upgrade, but that's also incorrect.
It's important to remind that the key reason why HM's moves were not removable by the player like the usual moves was to prevent annoying bugs.
I mean, what if you're using Surf and then your surf pokemon levels up and in order to learn a new move you delete Surf? What would have happened to the game then?
The problem (especially in gen 3 and 4) was that too many hm features were required at the same time.
But I would also say that in gen 4 this is not a real problem since it is not too difficult to obtain Heart Scales
I feel like the BEST example of using HMs to explore previously inaccessible places is when you get surf and you can finally explore the water path Mr. Briney passes by on your way to Dewford, which includes the Abandoned Ship!!
i like how lets go, arceus, and scarlet/violet have done it. unlocking the skills to do the exploration by upgrading the player character, not specific pokemon in your party.
your point on a lack of unlockable, explorable areas is valid though.
The way arceus handles moves where you can swap out any learned moves on the fly without a move deleter, rememberer or heart scales right from your menu already solved the HM issue.
Role playing is my main reason for liking them. The idea of using a Pokemon's move outside of battle is just an inherently cool gameplay hook, even if the mechanics are simple. To me, that's one of the closest the games have gotten to simulating an actual navigable world and not a collection of levels, and it makes your Pokemon feel like actual living things with a physical presence instead of units in a game. Ride Pokemon do fit that same concept, but something about finding a non-combat use of a move is really compelling to me, and I especially like my own Pokemon doing it.
Sun and Moon definitely has areas you encounter early on with water or rocks blocking your way that you can only navigate later on when you get the appropriate ride Pokémon.
HMs effectively make some of your Pokémon only have 2 or 3 available move slots. Or even cutting off an entire place on your team. Which definitely hampers your fun.
Ride Pokémon fulfill the same “inspiration to adventure” without also hampering fun by forcing you to have moves you don’t want.
HM gives some connection with our pokemon, if they could be replaced by other moves without the need of a move deleter it would be amazing
Agreed.
S/M's Poké Ride was a disgusting display of animal cruelty and enslavement, with the Ride Pokémon having *no other purpose* than to bypass obstacles.
LGP/LGE's Secret Techniques were fine, but they would have been better if you could teach them to every Pokémon.
Then we have Sw/Sh. This replacement was objectively appalling. I know not how anyone could like the idea of dampening progression just for convenience.
BD/SP's HM app was just stupid.
_'Hey, Mr Bibarel, sir, could I just borrow you for a second? I can't be bothered to teach my Luxray Strength, so could you shove aside that big stone for us, please? Thank you!'_
LA's Nobles were justified by the lack of knowledge and technology at that point in time, but under no other circumstances would this be good execution.
And finally, S/V's Herba Mystica was a good idea, but it was so integrated into the plot that I doubt that GF would be able to repeat something similar without basically making the same game again and again ad infinitum with a new coat of paint each time.
I am dreading LZA's approach.
@@Mystmon *"S/M's Poké Ride was a disgusting display of animal cruelty and enslavement, with the Ride Pokémon having no other purpose than to bypass obstacles."*
It isn't, at all. You have to bond with said Pokemon to be able to use their Ride Ability.
Besides, couldn't we say the same thing about Pokemon that are destined to be used for HMs and nothing else?.
*"I know not how anyone could like the idea of dampening progression just for convenience."*
You tell me, you are the one that is basically making said argument.
*"BD/SP's HM app was just stupid."*
Oh yeah, because a better idea is to hamper the Moves my own Pokemon can use, right?.
@@toumabyakuya
> *_'It isn't, at all. You have to bond with said Pokemon to be able to use their Ride Ability.'_*
True, but said bond would be significantly stronger if you could also use them in battle or Refresh.
> *_'Besides, couldn't we say the same thing about Pokemon that are destined to be used for HMs and nothing else?.'_*
Yes, but that was simply the _suggested_ solution - you could distribute the HMs evenly across your team if you really wanted to. What I hate is that this 'enslavement' was _necessitated_ in S/M.
> *_'You tell me, you are the one that is basically making said argument.'_*
Because what better way is there to amend a decent-on-paper-but-poorly-executed mechanic (HMs) than to make the region bland, empty and uninteresting?
> *_'Oh yeah, because a better idea is to hamper the Moves my own Pokemon can use, right?.'_*
No, a better idea is to implement something like Secret Techniques from LGP/LGE.
I do not expect GF to go to extremes (like in D/P/Pt), but I also do not expect GF to patch up an issue with another issue.
@@Mystmon *"True, but said bond would be significantly stronger if you could also use them in battle or Refresh."*
...said which Pokemon character? Or is this only your headcanon? Because I am free to disagree with the latter.
*"Yes, but that was simply the suggested solution"*
And the best solution as well, otherwise you are damaging the moveset of every single one of your teammates, not a good solution.
*"What I hate is that this 'enslavement' was necessitated in S/M."*
Again, the same thing could be said about HMs, especially in Hoenn and Sinnoh.
*"Because what better way is there to amend a decent-on-paper-but-poorly-executed mechanic (HMs) than to make the region bland, empty and uninteresting?"*
For me, this beats all the cons of HMs any day of the week. I simply do not like HMs at all.
*"No, a better idea is to implement something like Secret Techniques from LGP/LGE."*
Now this I agree with.
*"I do not expect GF to go to extremes (like in D/P/Pt), but I also do not expect GF to patch up an issue with another issue."*
Thing is that HMs are flawed by nature. The only way to fix them is to remove them entirely.
@@toumabyakuya
> *_'...said which Pokemon character?'_*
I would understand if anyone who chooses to use an 'HM Mule' would agree with this as well. They generally bond more with Pokémon that they don't reserve entirely for HMs/can use in battle.
> *_'And the best solution as well, otherwise you are damaging the moveset of every single one of your teammates, not a good solution.';_*
*_'Again, the same thing could be said about HMs, especially in Hoenn and Sinnoh.';_*
*_'Thing is that HMs are flawed by nature. The only way to fix them is to remove them entirely.'_*
As I stated previously, I do not expect GF to go to extremes. I would rather have that extra layer of bonding with my Pokémon without allocating them entirely to non-battle purposes.
> *_'For me, this beats all the cons of HMs any day of the week. I simply do not like HMs at all.'_*
Fair enough, I understand and respect that.
I'm fine with HMs as long as they don't feel like they're hindering my options for an ingame team. Like cut, surf, and strength are usually available on a wide variety of pokemon that make sense to have those moves. Big strong pokemon can learn strength, pokemon with claws can learn cut, and water types can learn surf. It doesn't feel limiting because I can usually find a team member who can learn them without needing an HM slave to take up a whole slot.
But then there are moves like waterfall in gen 2, where it cannot be learned by like half of the water types for some reason. Worst of all, Feraligatr can't even learn waterfall, meaning you'd either have to ditch your starter for Victory Road, or carry a whole separate water type with you, which is such a baffling design decision that I genuinely wonder if it was an oversight. Charizard learning fly is another example, but at least that one was fixed in Yellow.
One thing you didn't mention is that pokemons over the generations got better movepools, especially with the physical/special split in Gen4, the move tutors in platinum, etc.
This makes HMs even less attractive since they directly compete with potentially good moves that your pokemon could learn instead.
For example, Manectric in Gen3 only learns Bite/Crunch as a non-stab move, meaning it's not that big of a deal to have him learn Flash.
Compare this with Electivire who can learn Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Psychic, Rock Slide, Flamethrower, Brick Break, Earthquake, Focus Blast or even Signal Beam; it's hard to choose your 4 moves, there's no way you're getting an HM on that.
Personally my favorite application of hms is Black and White. Cut is necessary right after you get it then no mandatory hms the rest if the game. However, if you choose to explore all the optional areas then hms will be necessary for that. Hms were merely a tool to gain access to cool items, pokemon, and locations
Fun Fact: Waterfall did exist in Gen 1 as a move but only two could learn it. They are the weakest Water type pokemon Goldeen and Seaking. Goldeen could learn Waterfall before evolving while Seaking learns it after evolving at level 39!
Yes and pokemon ride literally does all of that but it's less annoying. Plus most HMs are trash anyway so people just find HM slaves and bring them along when they want one of the hidden items. Nobody cares about HM slaves so Gamefreak replaced they with something that serves the exact same function but it's less annoying
I overall agree and will go one step further: HMs were meant to be a union of battle and exploration, a vehicle through which your own Pokémon could help you traverse the world and reach your goal (becoming Champion) while you helped them grow as well (trained Pokémon grow better than wild ones, are able to use their moves better, learn new ones, evolve, etc.).
This is why Victory Roads were often heavy on HMs, as they were also supposed to test your traversal skills, not just your battle ones, and why Sinnoh especially had so many: you have the *option* of using Pokémon dedicated to HMs, but you're generally meant to implement them into your team, which therefore has to be more varied to incorporate all of them.
You're also not supposed to have all of your resources all the time, so you can either choose to slightly gimp your movesets or outright bring on a weaker team member to accommodate for traversal. These games see their challenge through resource management, and this system tied into that.
Not being able to delete them on the fly has to do with how maps are designed and avoiding players getting softlocked, especially Gen 6 onward where you can trade from anywhere in the world and therefore you might technically, say, get stuck on an island if you trade away your only Surf user and aren't able to catch any more.
I agree that their telegraphing wasn't always the best; this is why I'd personally add a feature on the Town Map that, alongside an area's description, also tells you which HMs are required to go through it and which ones are optional; the same thing could also be applied to each location's signpost, treating them like a tourist map of sorts.
The perfect fix is right in their name, "Hidden" Moves, make it so that once you have the HM, and the ability to use the move outside of battle, allow any Pokemon capable of learning it to just use the out of battle effect. It was locking Pokemon into having to learn it that made people ask to move away from them (and what lead Gamefreak to go all Nintendo on that and move away from every aspect of the system not just the bad parts) But by making it a function it would have prevented the need for Ride Pokemon and would allow you to use your own Pokemon
If all HM's were as strong as Surf and Waterfall or had great utility like New Defog or even Flash, I don't think they would be that huge of a problem. Fly and Dive should stay 2 turn moves as that's unique but maybe a buff in Power, Cut should be like 70 Power, Rock Smash should have a 100% chance to lower Defense(or be a TM like X and Y), and *ROCK CLIMB SHOULD HAVE 100% ACCURACY.* Whirlpool just shouldn't be an HM.
Although I actually really like how they did HM's in BDSP. Ride Pokémon don't really do it for me so letting me choose between having the HM on my Pokémon or a permanent HM Slave App that progresses exactly like the old HM system. It's a shame that *MOVING* sucks in BDSP.
It is pretty funny to me how HMs went from everyone’s least favorite thing ever, to being removed entirely to almost unanimous applause, to now being a thing that people miss after it’s been gone for awhile. That’s human nature for ya! 😂 but I actually do agree, it’s cool having your own team use the skills to access new areas and encounters. That should come back in a more refined form.
Fun fact, Cut is the only hm you are required to use in Pokemon Black & White. This is evident of the only required cut tree in the dreamyard, heans cut is the only required cut hm in Pokemon Black & White, making it the only game where a single hm is required in a pokemon game that has hms in them. What a unique game Black & White is only requiring one hm for the story being cut. This is evident by the single required cut tree in the dreamyard that... Can I end this bit now?
Please keep going.
The problem I had with HMs was how many water ones there were. Throwing surf on a teammate never felt bad, fly was OK, and rattata was a good sacrificial pivot for learning the rest. Having to throw dive, waterfall, and whirlpool onto a water type threw any hope of coverage out the window for that teammate
I like HMs, but I wish all of them that were required to get past areas that were mandatory to progress (Cut in Kanto, Rock Smash in Sinnoh, Whirlpool in Whirl Islands and Dragon's Den and Surf in every region I believe) were a lot more widely available to learn across all the Pokemon so teambuilding didn't feel so restricted by almost forcing you to need to use certain Pokemon on your team. Cut is the only one that ever felt properly distributed to me for how it's used as it's almost always only needed to get to optional areas but it is still pretty widely distributed.
I agree 100% with you, HMs make the game almost feels like a metroidvania for me, backtracking to find hidden items and sometimes rare pokemon made the regions feel very alive and memorable. I do understand why people don't like them and they certainly could be executed better, maybe make the moves stronger or more useful in battle (some like surf and waterfall are great though). In recent replays I tend to spread them over my teammates as to not have to sacrifice a team slot for a dedicated HM mon, it works great, few are the times were I need all four move slots in casual playthroughs.
Btw, great video as usual, love your content!
I'm a huge HM fan, I just wish they had better type distribution. Having a form of interaction with your Pokemon beyond fighting is great and simple worldbuilding, and incorperating them on your team encouraged team diversity. I think they're only bad when you have a situation where there are 3 water HMs and making a usable Water pokemon becomes a mess because of it, or a bunch of weak nornal moves. My number one solution would be moves that act as HM alternatives that make it so you don't need a specific move it doesn't auit you- Fury Cutter is a better-ish move than Cut and could be used to remove treea, or certain powerful Fighting moves could puah boulders, or so on, which would diversify options while still making you dependant on your team to navigate the world.
When put like that I could see it just going all the way by making any move affected by the Sharpness ability also function as Cut outside of battle. It solves the biggest problem of HMs, being that most of them are useless in battle and they bog down your team.
Another example of this I can think of is kind of in Infinite Fusion, where they changed Teleport to function identically to Fly outside of battle, instead of only sending you to the last center you went to.
@@jonathanflanagan1504 Also probably just make surf do everything 😅 or any of the bugger water moves. if you didn't need Waterfall and Surf, just either or it'd be a huge improvement for viability
Make HMs learnable for out of battle purposes. Put them under their own tab in the Pokemons summary screen. Use it freely in the overworld without impacting your battle moces. They were fun for puzzles and exploration.
I think the biggest offender is fly. Having fast travel locked to an arbitrary list of flying types (why can't gliscor and Gyarados fly?) is really annoying and limits teambuilding greatly.
If they brought hms back, I'd want them to be overhauled completely. You would go and learn secret techniques to get rid of certain optional obstacles, and you use your team to deal with them. If you encounter a tree, any Pokemon effective again grass would be able to destroy it. Very hot ground could be made walkable by water, ice, or ground types. Stuff like that would be fun and encourage unique team composition, without the limitations of hms.
That would be a cool idea, I would be down for a game to try that! Sort of like incorporating aspects of Ranger into the main games
So like the exploration abilities that monsters give you in Monster Sanctuary?
If HMs were to come back, I think there could be some nice ways to buff them without them feeling so intrusive for many
Cut - Make it steel type. Cut in Japanese is called "Iai Cut", because it's based on a sword technique. At least this way, cut wouldn't be immediately outclassed the moment you obtain it.
Fly - Give it wider non-flying distribution (since it already received a damage buff in Gen 4)
Surf - Keep the same (since it's already a great move)
Strength - give it a small buff like 20% chance to increase attack by 1 stage
Flash - Reduce it back to 70% accuracy, but make it so that it decrease accuracy by 2 stages instead
Whirlpool/Waterfall - Give it wider distribution
Rock Smash - Make it so that it always decreases defense
Dive - Buff it to 120 power. You usually get Dive late enough in any game it's available to warrant such an increase in power.
There is that whole cavern and water area in SMUSUM that is hidden away. Where you can catch Mareanie and Bagon. You can use ride Pokémon in the same method as HMs in hiding away secret areas.
The reason you can't delete HMs on your own is the same reason you can't release or trade a Pokemon with an HM: it prevents the player from softlocking themselves. Say you get to an area using an HM, and then you release the Pokemon with said HM; suddenly, you can get out, and if you dony have fly or an escape rope you might just have to scrap the save file entirely.
but hms are infinite use in gen 1
They are infinite since Gen 1.
My opinion on HMs:
Ok so... they're not that bad of a concept. The issue is that they're not as good as Surf, or the Gen 4+ variations of Waterfall and Flash. And Gen 3 and 4 especially screw them up... Gen 3 because of needing 3 water HMs one after the other in the endgame, and Gen 4 because just of how much there is, and how little you actually find useful.
The best use of HMs imo is Black and White. The only mandatory one is the Dreamyard tree. The rest are just novelties that open up shortcuts or access to hidden nooks n' crannies.
With how poorly executed they were, I am actually glad they were replaced by rides, as they do not limit the Pokémon you need or their movesets. You can travel with the most optimal stuff for a playthrough, without sacrificing anything.
How would I improve HMs? Well... for starters, make the moves more useful. All being useful until the midgame, but either becoming a genuine option for the late game, or a niche that isn't the most optimal, but you could consider. And finally, not being too many. Maybe 4 or 5 moves... even 6 or 7 if we're feeling lengthy about it.
Personally I think the best way to do HMs is sort of like what BDSP did. (I can't believe I'm praising BDSP for something.) HMs are not required, but the obstacles are still there. If you want to use your own Pokemon to clear it, you can. I personally don't like the idea of using someone else's pokemon for my tasks, so I would prefer that we have tools we can use like in Infinite Fusion. I think that would satisfy everyone except for HM purists who believe I should waste 2 party slots on Pokemon who only use HMs.
I liked your points about it being a hint instead of hand holding. I've seen some other good suggestions in the comments, and I think with the Advent of accessing the box from anywhere in more recent games, allowing us to use a Pokemons HM from the box instead of it needing to be an active member in your party would be a good way around this.
I hadn't thought about that! Since we have free box access it would be nice to use HMs from PC Pokemon as well!
I like HMs actually.
Pearl was my first Pokémon game (besides Ranger). I never completed it because I fell off right around victory road. This. Makes sense.
Can't blame you for that! It's such a pain
- oh wait half of the dex are normal, water and flying what do we do now?
- I have this idea called cut, fly, strenght, flash, surf, waterfall, dive
How I would rework HMs
-You don’t need any Pokemon to use any HMs (want to travel the world with a Magikarp? Go ahead)
-if it’s Arceus/BDSP style of HM use then you can register a Pokemon in your boxes to one or more HM slots (of course you can’t have a magikarp use fly or a rapidash use surf)
-if a Pokemon has an HM move learned (or a move that has an HM field effect) then you can select that Pokemon and have it use said move
The intended effect is that you aren’t restricted if you don’t have certain Pokemon or moves but if you have certain Pokemon or moves then you can have your Pokemon help you out in the field, riding the Pokemon across land, across water, up walls, and across the sky (and through other possible obstacles like rocks, foliage, whirlpools, and pushable blockades)
I like HMs because they are a diegetic means of tying the player's abilities in the field to the Pokemon themselves. They are similar to the dungeon items in Zelda games, or brush techniques in Okami. You are rewarded for catching more Pokemon, and more importantly, your actual team that you chose to catch (choice being important; not a fan of Koraidon/Miraidon in SV) is helping you explore the world. This is why I particularly hated Ride Pokemon in Sun & Moon and the Latis in ORAS. Whose Charizard is that? Whose Mudsdale is that? Not mine. Is Tauros even in this game?
I never had the experience of being "turned away" because of not having a Pokemon ON ME even though I DID have the HM. As soon as I got an HM, I assumed it would be needed for any difficult route or cave coming up. OF COURSE the final trial before the Elite 4, called "Victory Road", would need Strength - why wouldn't it?
On the other hand, I did absolutely hate Flash & Rock Smash in Gen 2 specifically, since they WEREN'T HMs, but instead "field move TMs". (I'm fine with field moves like Sweet Scent or Dig, since those aren't used for traversal / progression / exploration.) A move being tied to an HM should be a signal of its importance, and be a 1-to-1 association as such.
What I would do is either:
1. simply make the HM moves better in-battle (eg., make Cut a Bug-type version of Slash/Night Slash/Psycho Cut, make Rock Smash always lower Defense, make Flash a damaging Electric-type move, etc.)
2. have HMs not be learnable moves, but techniques that you must simply have a compatible Pokemon in your party in order to use.
The issue with HM's is the clash between battle moves and travelling tools.
Lately, whenever I replay old pokemon games, I found that rotating my party and making a dedicated pokemon for HM's isn't so bad because it incentivises me to explore more of the region at my own pace. I don't shoot straight for the league nowadays. So I find pleasure in just exploring for the sake of exploration and getting rewarded for doing so. Hoenn may ask you for like 8 HM's, but imo, this is the region that best utilized them. Because many of these unlock shortcuts that allow you to traverse through the region rather quickly. For example: route 103 is connected with route 110 through surf, so I can go from Oldale to Mauville or Slateport in less than a minute after taking that shortcut. Rock smash creates a shortcut from Verdanturf to Rustboro. Up from Rustboro you get to route 115 and with surf you can get to Meteor Falls and from there get to the north of the region easily. Remember the Mr. Briney boat travel? Yeah once you get surf you can go from Slateport to Dewford, and from there back to route 104 in one big route. Or how about the surf shortcut from route 121 to Mt. Pyre, down to route 123 and then getting back to mauville in no time, or you can also go to route 119 to get to Fortree City if you so desire. I rarely use fly (unless I REALLY want to cut time), because Hoenn as a region embraces hm's as fun travelling tools. Add this to my party rotation and it makes the game progression similar to that of a metroidvania, which is great! I spent HOURS of playtime optimizing my routing thru the main campaign many times. And effortlessly grinding resources and raising pokemon in the post-game. Because of how well Hoenn understands HM's as concept for the most part.
With all of this being said, the issue was always the fact that these are fighting moves as well, and the hard commitment you have to make to even use them as travel tool, clash with the concept of hm's for exploration in a RPG journey. Yes you can make an HM slave and just rotate it in and out of your party like I do. But what if other people don't find this way of playing appealing? What about the people who are attached to their party or don't want to spend time going back to the Pokemon Center constantly? In this regard, HM's hardlocking themselves on your movesets without a move deleter, sucks the fun out of the overall game. And it doesn't help that many HM's just suck in battles. Why would I use Cut over other normal type moves like return or double edge? Why would I use flash when its benefits are about as good as string shot? It also doesn't help that sometimes, regions arbitrarily demand hm's in normal story progressionlike rock smash in hoenn's route 111, Victory road in most games, Whirlpool island in Soul Silver etc etc... I cannot stand the Gen 4 games specially, because of HM's slowing the already slow pace further down.
HM's are a noble concept, but in execution, they never evolved past hardlocked moves that may allow exploration, but that required so much commitment out of your teambuilding. Despite SuMo's linear region design, the choice of these moves being separate from the pokemon's moveset was a godsend, and I loved my first playthrough of these games, because it was convenient to just worry about my battling team instead of getting a pokemon just dedicated to HM's. This should've been the main way of handling them imo. But too little too late, ever since SuMo, region design stopped being as elaborate as Hoenn or Kalos. It now favors open fields which can be fun no doubt. But a part of me feels frustrated because this mechanic which should be ESSENTIAL for region design, was not only handled poorly for many years, but completely forgotten once open world exploration started to become the mainstream. If pokemon goes back to set region map design, I hope that HM's are refined and convenient while still having good and interesting map design.
In a perfect world: Ride Pokemon can fill in the slot of Surf and Fly. Since HMs aren't unlearnable outside of Move Deleters _solely_ due to you potentially getting yourself stuck in areas by unlearning them then ditching the Pokemon, having Ride Pokemon cover for the movement HMs frees them up from that issue and lets them be overwritten. This way, Ride Pokemon and HMs can co-exist and cover each other's weaknesses - Ride Pokemon not being as much of a hassle to account for in story progression related obstacles, and HMs allowing you to use your own Pokemon with their own moves to traverse optional dungeons/side areas.
Then, HMs could be boosted up to not be dogwater in battle. Cut could be a Flying type move with 60 bp in the same vein as Aerial Ace (Fun Fact: Aerial Ace is named after a specific sword technique in the Japanese versions. This is why I tend to relate Cut to it, and think Cut would fit as a Flying type move more than a Bug type move. Both are Scyther STAB anyways, so it works out), Strength could be a 100 bp Normal type move to cover for Return's absence, Rock Smash could be a 60 bp move with a guaranteed Defense drop instead of only a 50% chance, Whirlpool could work like Salt Cure and remain on the opponent as background dps even after the user switches - losing its trapping capabilities to do so but also becoming 40 bp and 100% accuracy due to being a Salt Cure variant, and Rock Climb could be a Ground type move akin to Bulldoze and Stomping Tantrum with 90 bp and 100% accuracy without the chance to confuse.
Additionally, every three to five routes could contain a decently sized side area that requires a handful of HMs to traverse that eventually leads to a room or set of rooms that contain a decent haul of "loot," as in a couple of medicine items, pokeballs, and a "big treasure." Said "big treasure" could either be a valuable TM (so _not Double Team)_ or a way to encounter a Pokemon exclusive to the area.
Again, that's in a "perfect world" game. Enough exploration to satiate the call to adventure, but not too much branching paths that have players who don't run all HMs feel forced to use them (or at least feel forced to run mons that could learn them). And enough ease of use for traversal methods that are obtained after certain points of progression, while still requiring potential resource use and interaction with your party to fully payout with the rewards the map has to offer.
i honestly liked having hms cus it posed you either a challenge to make sure a user was in your party, or sacrifice a spot in place of a “utility mon”
as many have alluded to already, the problem was that the HMS were buttjuice as in-battle moves, aside from surf and maybe fly.
I fully believe that with the current systems, hms could be brought back right now and they wouldn't be an issue. You can delete and relearn moves right from your party menu, but to mention you have access to the pc on the go. Just make tms infinite use again and make sure every hm is obtained by playing the game and has actual meaningful exploration opportunities, and they're suddenly an amazing system without any real drawbacks
I have two issues with HMs that I don't see mentioned often:
- Most of the HMs could be replaced by items you carry. Cut = gardening scissors. Surf = surfing board. Strenght = crowbar. Flash = flashlight. Etc. This way you don't even need to tie its use to a specific badge. These would be key items you receive at specific moments in the story.
- Some HMs were pretty specific. Flash only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Defog only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Dive only had 1 or 2 locations per game. Whirlpool... you get the idea. If I'm going to sacrifice a move slot for an HM, I would expect to use that move consistently for the rest of the game. Also I hate that some moves need constant use. When I'm not looking the tree I just cut and the rock I just destroyed magically reappeared. Why? I understand the case for rocks, as sometimes you get rewards for breaking them, but I think there should be a difference between obstacle rocks that should remain broken vs optional rocks that respawn. Gen 3 did this with the rocks in Rusturf tunnel, that never respawn. However any time I try to leave Mauville city to the north I need to have a rock smash pokemon with me. Why? Also, cut plants should never regrow, there is no reason for it other than annoy the player if they revisit a zone. The same goes for strength puzzles. I like how gen 5 did them, once you move a stone, it will fall into a hole and remain there forever, meaning strength would eventually become unnecesary. I think HMs would be more tolerable if all of them were like that, once you fully explore a zone you know that you'll never need an HM to come back (maybe surf only).
One other thing I forgot to add is that GF threw out the baby with the bath water when removing HMs. They also removed every field move. I have never seen any person complain about dig, teleport or sweet scent. It's a shame we lost their OoB use.
I kinda like the idea of HMs for exclusively optional content- that exploration is nice. The only HM I 100% want to stay as a feature you always have access to is Fly- I HATE having to sacrifice a move or team slot just to be able to fast travel.
The main problem that I have with HMs that compared to other turn-based RPGs is due to Pokémon being very restrictive with the number of moves Pokémon can have usable at any given time has been 4 since generation 1. So, in order to traverse places you must permanently, unless you go to a Move Deleter, sacrifice one or more of your Pokémon's available moves that you cannot change out with newer moves to give them certain roles. Unless it is a very viable move, I will have one or two Pokémon be designated to learn HMs exclusively for traversal purposes.
I was even confused why it was designed this way as a kid. I always thought it would make more sense that when you defeat a gym leader said gym leader would "teach" you how to teach your Pokémon to do certain things outside of combat that applies to certain Pokémon and you just need to find out which Pokémon knows which one or ones.
No. Instead, as I kid, I wondered how do I get passed X thing, made the deduction that I need to defeat the gym leader first to get access to a certain HM to use, beat the gym leader and they hand me moves that I never end up teaching to any of my Pokémon, frantically waste an hour trying to figure out where I find the HM sometimes, learn that Pokémon taught an HM cannot have the move removed/overwritten except by a specific NPC, and lastly finding Pokémon that I don't care about to learn HMs.
Now that I am older, as a risk versus reward unintentionally designed in Gen 6 and prior. Do you take as many Pokémon with you that know HMs so that you can easily traverse without backtracking but limit the number of battle-ready Pokémon you can bring with you? Or, do you bring only certain ones (like Surf) and risk having to go back to a Pokémon Center to switch out your party.
I just think it's neat.
scarificing a moveslot on your main mons is also bad because that means whenever youre exploring the region or need space in your party for a different mon to evolve that usually means you gotta keep most of your team intact so it makes it really hard to go anywhere
I think we can all agree that Surf and Fly are the HMs everybody is actually fine with. As a kid, planning out which pokemon would be my Surf user and which would be my dedicated Flying-type was a fun part of team building.
The problem is that the rest of the HMs just aren't fun to have. Nobody gets excited for these normal-type Cuts, Strengths, Rock Climbs, and having multiple Water-type HMs is just not fun.
My proposed changes:
Flash - Gone, but any light-based move fills the same role.
Cut - Replace with Uproot, a 70 power Ground move that is super effective against grass-types.
Waterfall - Replace with Ascend, a 90 power Dragon move that can be learned by dragon-like, serpent-like, and some fish-like pokemon.
Rock Climb - Make it a Rock move.
I think adding more flavor to these moves makes them much more bearable.
My best idea to "Fix" HM's would be a few things. First, make them all nearly as usable as Surf. Maybe not as good, but nearly. Something like Cut becoming a bug type move with 60-80 base power, strength becoming a fighting type move, rock climb becoming a rock type move. Second, I want certain TM's, other moves, or possibly even abilities to become valid replacements for HM's. Something like knowing Brave Bird instead of requiring fly. Leaf blade instead of Cut. Or, the abilities Hyper Cutter or Sharpness instead of Cut. Brick break instead of Rock Smash. If these sorts of changes existed, HM's would quickly lose their sting, as you'd have a multitude of options for traversing the land, and wouldn't need to bog down your team with bad moves.
Personally what I miss about HMs aside from what it brought to the map design is the puzzles you'd get from HM's such as strength. I loved the trick house in Hoenn, or the routes 225 to 230 in Sinnoh, and part of what made them so great is the use of HMs and how they would be completely impossible to replicate today.
I think that HMs should have stayed and just made removable and be buffed to be actually good moves. An additional way would have been to either make them a secret 5th move or to make them a passive ability of certain Pokémon.
I think each Pokémon should have two movesets: one for battle moves and another one for field moves. I'd go a bit further and replace some items with field moves, like Odor Sleuth taking the place of the Itemfinder. Using your team for things other than battling is a very cool aspect of the franchise, shame it got removed.
I honestly loved HMs and am very sad that they’re gone, BUT I think that the moves should have ALL been good moves you want to use in a battle
i like that field moves make pokemon feel more like real companions than just tools for battle. using my pokemon to deal with an obstacle makes me feel like a crafty outdoorsman or something. the whole summoning thing in newer gens just cannot create that same feeling and diminishes the usefulness of your party outside of battle. i want to rely on the 6 pokemon i have on me. obviously, the whole "HM slave" thing needs to be mitigated. in my opinion, they should have made it so that you didn't actually need to teach an HM to a pokemon to use the move outside of battle, just require that the pokemon *can* learn it. instead of being handicapped by having one party slot going to a bidoof with mediocre moves, you could just have *a* bidoof with decent moves. obviously machamp can punch a rock. why do you need a move for this?
I genuinely like the concept of HMs, but I also think now that we can change our Pokémon moves at any time, just having taught the Pokémon the move, even if its not one of the active 4 moves should be enough in any remakes going forward. Let me make an HM Slave that is actually usable.
I'd honestly be totally fine with HM's if the moves were at least varied enough to provide good early/mid-game coverage (I enjoy when rom hacks make Cut a grass move), and if you could delete them without the need of an NPC. That would of course require the game to have good soft-lock solutions in case I decide to delete strength when I'm trapped between two boulders, or release all my water mons on an island in the middle of the ocean. But I feel like they could find a way.
Gen 1 hm: ok
Gen 2 hm: annoying, but still tolerable
Gen 3 onwards: you have earned my hatred for all eternity
I never understood all the HM hate. Sure it’s annoying that you can’t replace them at will, but in HM games I get way more immersed when my team and move choices can expand my basic traversal abilities.
If there was more variety in the typings of the HMs, I wouldn't begrudge them.
For example, Cut as a Grass / Bug type move, Rock Climb as a Rock / Fighting (or even Ground, oddly feels fitting), and a replacement of a Water move for an Ice or Steel move...
This diversity would mean I would have to make compromises on the attacks I have, but not necessarily the Pokemon I use.
I agree that HMs do help make the world more immersive and explorable. There is a simple solution that I am surprised Game Freak never thought of. Make more HMs! This may sound crazy, but hear me out. The standard HMS(Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, etc.) will still be there, but the player can obtain new HMs through exploring. The new HMS will effectively replace the old HMs. For example, players will receive HM Cut in the beginning. Around the fifth badge, players will obtain the upgraded version of Cut, Slash. This will allow the classic exploration while not wasting a precious move slot.
The way moves are handled in Arceus already solves the issue of HMs in a game with Ride Pokemon..... Swap out whatever learned moves right from the menu without a move deleter, rememberer or heart scales.
I've always wished HMs could have just been a KEY item, like an axe or a boat...
That's one thing I didn't bring up that would have been worth getting into, how things like key items or modes of transportation in other JRPGs allow the world to open up, it would be nice if similar design was done for Pokemon progression without forcing it on the Pokémon's moveset itself
Maybe make a video out of it?@@AzureFlute
"Were they really that bad?" Yes, yes they were
😂 can't argue with that
What I thought was cool in gen 5 flash was in a alley way because a dude couldn’t find something and you can use it to see in cave to get the cobalion it’s a life saver
Gens 7,8, and 9 have loads of content and secrets if u know where to look
Like in the gen 9 dlc in the area zero underdepths there’s a hidden room that u have to go out of your way to look for to open
FireRed & LeafGreen were when HMs were at their peak you were expected to carry 6 of them at all times & waterfall if you ever wanted to go to the 4 Island Cave or take a shortcut on 2 Island. Heart Gold & Soul Silver could have been cruel & had Defog stay as HM05 with Whirlpool being HM09 thankfully there will never be an official game with more than 8 of them. Still I'm curious how a Foggy Red Battle would have been. 1 of the coolest thing about HMs being learned is you could get to some cool places early. SS Anne is a place you don''t need to make depart if you trade to get a Pokemon with Cut. Likewise I remember getting a traded Oshawott with Surf in Gen 5 near the start of the game which was cool as well.
They should've allowed the Pokémon who learned HMs to retain the ability to use it on the over world even after it's deleted. that way there's some decision in sacrificing a moveslot early in the game and still allowing full movesets after getting to the move deleter. I think that's a fair middle ground.
Personally, I think HM’s should have never left. But should have been reworked to still be taught to a Pokemon, but only affect the overworld and not take up a moveslot. For example, Cut should be teachable to any pokemon with something sharp on them. This would encourage team diversity in a more organic way than have an HM slave ready to be swapped whenever you enter a cave or something
I will never understand why they didn't just make HM moves innate abilities. Take Scyther for example: once you unlock the badge that lets you use Cut, Scyther can just always Cut outside of battle. You can use the HM on it if you want him to use Cut in battle, but otherwise it's just an ability of that Pokemon. Once you unlock the badge for Fly, either Scyther could innately use both outside of battle, or restrict each Pokemon to a single HM move that fits it best. When they introduced natures and abilities, I was convinced this was the next logical step that just never came.
Granted, BDSP almost got there, I just want to feel like I'm adventuring with *my* Pokemon.
I feel like they should have just distributed the skills of HMs to more moves!
Have Flamethrower, Thundershock or moonblast?
You have Flash now.
You have Slash, Night Slash or Psycho Cut? You have Cut.
All you have to do is earn the license to use the moves in this way. (which isn't any weirder than needing a move to sit on a lapras for Surf)
I wish HM's in Gens 1-4 were like Gen 5 TM's. Infinite use and forgettable.
Edit: I know they are already infinite use and there are move deleters (besides gen 1), but it would be nice to change your moveset whenever you'd like.
Yeah, that's really a big problem with HMs is just how annoying they are to manage as part of a moveset, it would be nice if you had the option to remove them and teach over them whenever you want like moves in Legends Arceus and Scarlet and Violet
I think something like only requiring the player to have an eligible Pokemon in their party to use the HM could work as some kind of middle ground. Something funny is in newer games like SWSH and SV you always have access to your PC boxes, meaning any kind of problem that would arise by not having a Pokemon with the right HM in your party would be avoided completely had those games actually had HMs lol
I loved the intro, atla is life, atla is love
I'm so torn on HMs. I love the feeling that me and my Pokemon are on an adventure together, but it limits team building and moveset diversity so much.
My thought was that once you unlock an HM, your Pokemon could use it outside of battle, even if they get the move deleted, though that might be unintuitive.
I think Paldea met a good midpoint in that. You definitely get more of a connection to Koraidon or Miraidon than say, a ride Pokemon, but it still doesn't take up a party member or move slot
I enjoyed HMs for puzzle solving and as you say making it my adventure. Ride Pokemon spontaneously appearing is weird.
I get why HMs had transfer or overwrite restrictions, to not soft lock by accident. But I think that could be resolved by 2 mechanics: Emergency Services like Animal Crossing has to bring you from anywhere back home. I say home because last Pokemon Center may not be sufficient. Imagine being on Pacifidlog Town with no rods or water types whom to teach Surf. The next mechanic would be pity pokeballs, where when at too little money the professor at hometown would be able to gift you some pokeballs and you can catch an HM user again.
Personally how i would have done it would be, pokemon can learn / use various feild moves regardless of it being an attack move. Ofcourse this still means you need them in your party but atleast theyre not HM slaves so to speak. Then you could have the more recent "ride pokemon" as a sort of quality of life unlockable that you can call upon at any time.
Maybe the feild moves are freely useable or maybe you can gate it behind you need to unlock a particular badge. Or maybe you have to have a trainer mastery system, where the pokemon upgrade these moves; surfing, then upgrading to go against whirlpools, waterfall or tides etc.
You could also have where there are puzzles, perhaps some nearby pokemon could learn these moves (would make sense for the environment). Though... that could be considered unnecessary steps
Flash should be the in-battle move Thunderwave. However you wish to name, make them the same. That way it would be insanely useful in-battle and always on hand.
A kid at my school somehow got a Mew on RBY which he shared with everyone in my class via the Gen 1 Trade Cloning glitch. But just to be cruel he taught this Mew: Flash, Fly, Strength and Cut so every kid in my class had a disappointing HM slave. Thankfully Gen 2 Move Deleter was able to fix my Mew eventually
I think a big problem people have with hms is more of an end result effect. Look at cut for example, its bad but its usually the first hm you get and usually not needed later down the line so by the time you wanna get rid of it you can visit the move deleted, but because its bad by the end of the game people say its bad but in actuality its just set to be par with the area your in. Plus I think hm slaves are a stupid concept because its better to have 6 Pokémon, 1 with each required hm with the few bad hms there then to have 5 Pokémon and 1 dead weight. You still have the same amount of Pokémon moves, just less Pokémon.
Another thing you didn't mention is that if limits the team. Say you don't like any of the water types but your required to use surf so now you gotta have a water type, I get that but I also don't because some hms are very diverse. And hms are 1 of 4 types, water, normal, flying, and fighting.
I want HMs back in the game buf i think they need to be changed, for example I always thought if was stupid that a Pokémon sith the hm strength could push rocks but not break them so I think his should be lowered to 4 hms and they start bad but can be upgraded over time. Give each 4 versions, so 3 upgrades. They can gain strength and also overworld abilities. Heres what I got for these techniques.
Cut technique - normal type - cut vines, cut bushes, cut logs, cut trees.
Strength technique - fighting type - smashes small rocks, pushes small rocks, rock climb, push big rocks.
Flying technique - flying type - soar over small gaps, fly to different places, defog an area, repel Pokémon.
Surf technique - water type - surf over bodies of water, clear whirlpools, climb waterfalls, dive underwater.
Hms basically gave gameplay limitations where there shouldnt be any. You can have a team of 6 pokemon with 4 moves each only you need to replace 5-8 of those 24 moveslots with a basically useless move (few notible exceptions). OR you have a team of 4 with 2 hm slaves. And you cant just quickly deal with some obstacles and forget them for better moves later down the line unless you go to the move relearner (which didnt even exist in gen 1). Also that only works for some of the HMs since depending on the game youll need a good chunk of em throughout the entire experience. There were so many easy fixes but as it stood for over 15 years (just mind boggling) it was a MASSIVE gameplay flaw
I cannot stand HMs but I hate even more the S&M change, it doesn’t make sense to me but I do like how in Gen 1&2 there’s an HM required that you just kinda find. Feels more immersive
Dedicated ride Pokémon can actually trace back their origin to Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs on the DS.
As a kid I HATED HM moves because they were so bad to use in battle. Like getting around the world in creative ways was cool until you have to get rid of move for Flash. As an adult I grew to appreciate more of what these moves meant for the overall game design. I still prefer ride Pokemon JUST because they are more general upgrades that don't effect my team. What wish they did (which would of been way better imo) was make it so "Oh you have THIS HM move, well you need this Pokemon in your party to use it". Notice how I said use it and not TEACH IT. I think HMs should work where they check if you have the right Pokemon to use it, then let use the move as if it was taught to the Pokemon. That way you can have the best of both worlds. Gen 4 remakes should of done that tbh but instead we just get the Poketch app. Either way I prefer how the ride upgrades were done in Gen 9 and I hope they do more of that. I just wish Gen 9's world was worth exploring more. It felt kind of empty, even after you got the ability to go to new areas.
honestly one of the main things i hated and still hate about early gens were the execution of HMs, I am so happy theyre gone. Also I think ride pokemon serve the same thing as most HMs, its just different in how it's executed. Instead of teaching and using a move slot for it on a pokemon, its separately on a pokemon you can always access. I just view it as way more convenient personally.
Edit: I think the issue of exploration is really a game design issue in which one game doesn't present many options as say in other games
Paldea does have HM's, they just changed the name, (not even the acronym) to Herba Mystica
There is a huge other reason why the new games don't have HMs.
It wouldn't translate easily to 3d. It would need models and animations for every Pokemon that could use any HM,. Maybe for cut or fly they could figure out a workaround with black screens like in the older games, but surf would be a real hassle. Just like every other aspect of the games, it has been gutted for the fruitless switch to 3d.
Also, the only complaint I have ever heard about HMs is that they use up moveslots, or something directly linked to that. And the solution has been staring GameFreak in the face from the very beginning. It is so blindingly obvious that any other developer would have seized it much earlier. Simply allow HMs to be used without a Pokemon actually learning the move. Make them key items that check if a Pokemon in the party could learn the move, and if so, that Pokemon would be used without actually teaching the move.
I'm sure this would have been possible in gen2, in gen3 by the latest. Since that was a bit of a fresh start anyway, it would have been a great opportunity. You would still need to pay attention to your party a bit, but I think almost everyone would have potential HM users with them without even trying.
This would have solved just about all the issues with HMs while still maintaining the immersion of having your own Pokemon help you outside of battle.
I think you've got a point somewhere in here but I really don't think your problems with the newer gens' game design have that much to do with HMs. Let's Go Eevee/Pikachu managed to achieve the same usage of Metroidvania mechanics (as far as I know the layout is exactly the same as regular Kanto) while also replacing HMs with "secret techniques" that don't take up move slots. They're still abilities you don't have access to at first that you can use in various areas of the game, but the functionality is closer to Ride Pokémon than it is to HMs. You can have clever and interesting Metroidvania-style design even with the new HM replacements. How well the games actually achieve that is a different story, but I wouldn't say that problem is primarily to do with HMs. Fans have all sorts of complaints about how much hand-holding the Pokémon games have started doing, and most of them aren't about exploration. Even if they had kept HMs instead of Ride Pokémon, I firmly believe it would have gone downhill the exact same way and to the exact same degree.
I would literally rather use the HM for Cut as a saw to chop down a tree than teach it to a pokemon
Dive is my favorite HM because of how unique it is.
I never had a problem with HMs but I also never really played competitively. But even so, Fly and Surf are excellent moves, and Strength isn't terrible.
It could be solved so easily.
Rock smash? Punching move.
Cut? Cutting move.
Surf? Well, surf is a good move so duh. But also make whirlpool and waterfall usable as surf.
Same for strength, but to a lesser extend.
The rest is really not necessary.
Try playing Hoenn without a Water type for HMs like I did on my first Alpha Sapphire
this was a great video!
As soon as they got rid of HMs, they added a bunch of features and content that would make HMs really good.
With the portable PC and the ability to relearn moves at any time, it’s almost impossible to soft lock yourself. If they brought them back, they could’ve made it where if a Pokémon learns the move once, it always has that HM ability without needing to remember the move, and if you didn’t have something like a surfer on your team, open up the PC at any time to grab one out of your boxes. And even if you released all of your HM Pokémon, the new open world maps mean there’s probably always going to be a Pokemon Center accessible on foot.
They also added walking, running, swimming, and flying animations for every Pokemon. Instead of being stuck with a lizard that can do anything, or a ride Pokemon, we could finally actually ride our own Pokemon, see them cut down the tree, smash a rock in the open world, but nope.
I want to connect with my Pokemon again, instead of having them be pure battle machines. It doesn’t help that the Pet simulator features got a massive downgrade imo with Camp and Picnics, but that’s a whole other discussion…
I think ridable pokemon/ the bike could’ve been used the same as HMs (adding extra optional exploration for you to come back to)….they just didn’t because of how Gen7 and 8 were designed.
Azure: The first instant of a replacement for an HM is in...
Me: XY's Gogoat! 😃
Azure: ORAS's Ladios/Ladias
Me: 😐
If the damage dealing moves had the power of Surf, or the flinch chance of Waterfall, or the equalent effect of other decent moves, would help.
Can't say much about Flash, as boosting your own evasion tends to be preferable, while Defog gaining its hazard removal effect, good in pvp, not so much in story if the AI never uses hazards.
Honestly, my biggest insuses whit those items is that they cannot be removed, i think that you needs the "you needs especific pokemons to move arround" fit rely well whit the themes of exploration and friendship.
The problem to me was always the god awlful length dungeons whit insane amount of random encounters and oponent trainers that you can't turns down the battle like any victory road.
A good alternative to HM for me is not the ride pokemons, rottom bike or Koraidon and Miraidon, the alternative always was to allows the pokemons to begin able to uses the hindem moves whit out actualy having then on the move list based on what the pokemon can (exemple, scyther haves blade arms so he can uses Cut, Lapras can swim so he can uses surf, machamp is string some he can uses rock smash and the list goes one)and the inclusion of tools to substitute some of the moves, like a dive suit to substitute the need of a dive HM or flash ligth to substitue the flash HM, and if you don't haves the proper pokemon you can just teachs the HM.
This could be usedfull to make open world game or, if you still want a more linear experience, just limits the moves by eith finding the HM or having the badge.
I've never had a problem with HMs. Let's be real, none of the games that require HMs for progression are hard enough that you can't sacrifice the move slots even for your main party. Strenth, Surf, Fly, and Waterfall are all strong enough to actually be useful in battle. They might not be the best option available, but they are good enough. Flash can be situationally useful. Cut has a lot of PP if you want to farm some weaker pokemon for exp. The only truly useless HM is whirlpool.