This just opens the door to picking which sin will be embraced and which part of the Holy Bible will be disregarded. It is marking God a liar and denying His Holiness and Sovereignty. It Says in John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It also says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, which means Jesus IS the Word. Denying the Word or disobeying it, is denying Jesus. So sad, He died to deliver us from the bondage of sin and yet an entire denomination is acting as if, He is not the Christ, the Word. The body of Christ cannot deny itself, lest it is really not be part of the Body. Pray for Holiness of all of the body of Christ.
Who started the original " church "?. Was it a social club ? Was it started to conform to man's ideas ? Or, was it to be a light in a very dark place ? GOD started the church, not man. Man can do what ever he wants, GOD gave man a free will. And the options to choose good or evil. Some one said " as for me and my house, we will follow the LORD ".
Actually. Humans created gods. Notice how each culture has a god that fits their needs. People choose churches that fit their morals. That's why there are so many churches. We create gods and religions then tell each other the ideas came from a god.
The church is believers in Christ. God created the church. Denominations came along and decided to "tweek" Gods plan. And it's been going on ever since.
@@claires9100 I agree. That's why people should just start a church of their liking. If you don't like women preacher's don't go to that type of church. If you're gay just start a gay church, just like the blacks did when they weren't accepted in most white churches.
@@claires9100 God sent messengers to each culture. Each messenger's message was delivered in a language suitable for the ears of the people in that culture.
Okay, that's Paul. What did Jesus say? Jesus said that the servants should let the wheat and weeds grow together, because errors could be made by the servants who take it upon themselves to pull the weeds up prematurely. (Matthew 13:24-30) Leave it alone for now, and see how it looks later.
@@garyelliott8768We grow together in the world. Key word " World" Even the text goes on to say that the field is the " World" not inside the church. This is exactly the problem right here. People opening their mouths who have no knowledge. God commands in another place "Be not uequally yoked with unbelievers" Get it right.
@@bible1st The time of the harvest has not come, and today's current church is not the barn for the wheat only. Plucking people out of the church is subject to error. To avoid being unequally yoked is not a call to avoid diversity and inclusion in the church. Gay people are not "unbelievers". Scholarly "believers" disagree about the translation and interpretation of what is written. There is agreement that what is written is the standard. There is disagreement about the translation and interpretation of what is written. "Get it right" and telling others to "get it right" for distinguishing wheat and weeds is not what we are called to do. Getting it right and plucking people out of the church is subject to error and not our job now. Being of service for helping others with charitable compassion and cultivating charitable compassion in others is our job now. Indentifying and plucking weeds comes later, at the time of the harvest. That's pretty much what Lovett Weems says. Let's not be so hasty and have patience. Let's wait and see what this debate looks like when it is more fully matured, and make a decision about what the more mature field looks like, so we can clearly distinguish, with less error, between the wheat and the weeds.
I left this apostate church when my pastor said on Easter morning “ theologians have debate whether the resurrection was physical or spiritual. I can’t say because I wasn’t there! “ This was the last of many unbiblical statements I heard from this pastor. When I questioned him he merely said, “ this is how I was taught “. Duke University chapel actually considered playing the Muslim call to prayer from their spire. Completely unacceptable. I joined a reformed Presbyterian church and couldn’t be happier.
I do believe leaving the UMC might be the only true choice..when something turns it's back on biblical teaching, usually, in today's society, there is no return to truth.. find another church that preaches and adheres to the bible..
Presbyterian pastors can marry gay couples. There is no prohibition against marrying gay couples. From the Presbyterian church website -- "Pastors are responsible for deciding whether they will or will not officiate at a marriage service. Sessions are responsible for deciding whether the church’s property may be used for a marriage service."
I left the Methodist Church in High School because unfortunately I had a spiritual experience and because it wasn’t a covered dish or about manners the Methodist Church couldn’t help me m
It is ruthless and unconscionable to withdraw the opportunity to live with a suitable "companion", and replace it with offering the gay person a choice between celibacy and sin, then give him a dog. Genesis 2:18 -- It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him....
Thank you for an excellent analysis of this heartbreaking dilemma. I can only think of John Wesley's advice that we don't have to think alike, but we can all love alike. "Think and let think." Please God, may we remember this advice and stop this insanity!
Better to love alike than to think alike. Yes, let's regard connecting in love as more precious than agreeing on issues. Let's build bonds, not walls of separation. Let's heal this heartache.
It's very simple you either follow the word of God and the Bible or follow the world on the broad path to destruction so choose the narrow road to eternal life or the wide road to destruction
Christians made negro slaves prisoners of the written word of God. Christians made native savages prisoners of the written word of God. Christians made silenced women prisoners of the written word of God. Christians made spanked children prisoners of the written word of God. Christians are making gay people having marital relations in a marriage prisoners of the written word of God. . Christians are making the same mistake the Pharisees made by making people prisoners of the written word of God, prisoners of the laws of God written on stone tablets. . Love is in the heart, soul and spirit, not the body. . UMC Hymn #593 I will break their hearts of stone, Give them hearts for love alone. . Get rid of the chains you use to hold others down. Stop pointing your finger at others as if they had done something wrong. Stop saying harmful things about them. . . . Isaiah 58:9, NIRV
IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE “MAN WITH WOMAN, WOMAN WITH MAN”!!! THAT IS FROM OUR GOD IN HEAVEN ABOVE AND THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE!!! ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT ACCEPTED BY GOD AND NEVER WILL BE!! SO IF YOU WANT TO MAKE IT TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE, YOU BETTER BE LIVING RIGHT WITH GOD!!! AND IF YOU’RE NOT, LORD HAVE MERCY ON YOU!!! 🙏🙏🙏
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So, in 2016, the convictions of sinners became a higher authority in the church than the Bible? That means the UMC ceased to be a church in 2016. There is only two futures awaiting your church from here: Repentance, Reformation, a return to biblical authority, or disintegration. Once you deny the Bible's authority on moral matters, you deny Christ: If you can't trust God's Word to tell you the difference between right and wrong, why would you need a Savior? If personal conviction is the yard stick, then everybody is right by default and no one is a sinner.
When Jesus was about to die, he did not say, "stop mocking me," "stop talking bad about me," "stop believing I'm a bad person," "stop joining the crowd," "stop taking my clothes," "ouch, this bleeding hurts my body." He was silent, gentle, gracious, merciful and forgiving as he agonized about one thing -- being forsaken, abandoned, alone. Yet, it is believed that God wants gay people to live celibate lives and die virgins, live and die alone. God himself does not want to exist alone, without having a covenant relationship with us. From the beginning of the Bible to end of the Bible, God wants each of us to be loved, and God does not want any of us to be compelled to be alone. Not indigenous Americans, not black slaves, not silenced women, not exterminated Jews, and not people born gay. Being alone is agonizing. The psalmists said so. Jesus said so. God said so. "The Bible's authority" said so -- Genesis 2:18, "It is not good for the man to be alone." Easter is in four days, April 17, as I write this. Christ said being alone was singularly the most agonizing of his sufferings. One does not "deny Christ" by caring about the United Methodist Church putting gay people in the position of being alone.
@@evelynnelliott2002 Cherry picking as always, I see. Funny how you left out the part where Paul mentioned the blessings of being single, of being able to be of greater service to others. Considering that you're talking to a 43 year old virgin, all your appeals to how "inhumane" that requirement is is not going to do you any good. I know the struggles of being single, I know the poisonous temptations of sexual sin. But for the sake of my Savior, I desire to be pure and not give into temptation. I don't always succeed, and I sometimes watch what I shouldn't, but I never stop fighting that desire. I know what a tough battle that is. _Never_ will I expect the church to stop preaching that it is sin, just because its hard for me. The Bible is also very clear about sexual relationships: When God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone.", he did not create another man. Right from the beginning, he said a man shall leave his parents and cling to his _wife_ God also said Homosexual acts is an abomination in his sight, a perversion of the love that He has intended for us. Jesus died on the cross to free us from slavery to sin. The agony He experienced far surpass the agony of not being able to live out your sexual desires. If that is what He did for you, how little it is you're prepared to sacrifice to show your love for Him? Look at what the apostles were willing to suffer to show their love for Christ, and you complain about first world problems? Jesus said that if you love Him, you will obey him, you say that's asking too much, you prefer your slavery to sin. Yes, Homosexuals can experience love. Platonic love, relationship love. But not sexual love, Jesus himself told his apostles that is not destined for everyone. God provided very strict and narrow parameters within which we are to express our sexuality, and anything beyond that is sexual immorality. If you think that sticking to biblical sexual norms is too much to ask, then you must ask yourself why you even want to remain part of the church in the first place. The Bible takes a very grim view of sexual immorality, and we are all called to fight our inner demons. If you're not willing to join that fight, then you are not part of the body of Christ. If you are in Christ, then you will hate your sins. "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? " - Romans 6:1-2
Unless a couple gets married, they are MEERLY friends. To become family, a couple gets married. . It has been said for decades, "Three Methodists, five opinions." Healthy, expected, necessary for positive change and progress. That's Christian unity, harmony, peace. . A girlfriend is not family. A boyfriend's family are not in-laws. To be married is to be family. . Are gay people obliged to be single and celibate, to be without family? Does Christ condemn marital relations in marriage? Is that what the Bible says? No, that's not what it says. . Scholars have shown that is not what it says. Christians can believe different scholars than you believe, and be followers of Christ. UMC allows for inclusiveness and different perspectives, and always has. May our journey forward together be, "Three Methodists, five opinions."
I think this a very good presentation, and sums up the mess that UMC is in. Personally, I cannot even comprehend churches being divided on homosexuality. Doesn't the Bible teach us to turn away from sin? That would mean you cannot condone homosexuality.
"When a father loves his children-- and those children experience that love and enjoy that love and live in that love, then they will reflect that love for one another." (David Platt) Let gay people live in love and reflect love to others. Less "Angry". "Angry" less. More love. Love more.
... or divorce or usury or wearing of two or more fabrics, etc and etc. How about honoring your mother and father when too many in this country put them in nursing homes and forget about them? Let's choose the ones we like and ignore the others?
Both sides are doing the best they can to "stand with God's Truth". Each side needs to recognize that truth, to let the Gospel of Peace shine forth. . Let people choose their convictions. God gives people the option to choose. Let the one denomination allow choice, without putting individuals in the position of choosing between two denominations reflecting two polarized convictions. . To be at peace only with those who are like us and are not different from us is not a reflection of the Peace of Christ. If there cannot be "Peace on earth" outside the church; let there be respite from polarization inside our United Methodist Churches. . Let the oneness of the Body of Christ remain united through this time, without allowing divisive battles in the political arena divide the church, so that people are put in the position of choosing between the Democrat Methodist Church or the Republican Methodist Church, with no option to sit in peace beside those who may differ, in the United Methodist Church.
I John 4: 7-13. We must keep our focus on the main thing. The question is not to go or stay but how we will love God and others in the going or coming.
God's Holy Spirit joins us to God. Peace and love join us to each other. . If our words and actions are completing God's love for his people, we are serving his purposes. . Indeed, that is how we keep the main thing the main thing. . Part of the scripture is here~~ If we love one another, God lives in us. His love is made complete in us. Here’s how we know that we are joined to him and he to us. He has given us his Holy Spirit. (1 John 4:12-13)
Those wanting changes within the church that goes against Bible teachings should just leave. There are enough alternatives around that would suit their views.
The Bible says to take care of widows and orphans-- that's people who are alone without a covenant relationship, people who are deserted, forsaken, abandoned and alone in the world with no one to care for them and to love them. To say gay people have to live alone in the world, with no covenant relationship, no family, nobody to love them, creates the problem the Bible asks us to alleviate. Alleviating the problem of leaving gay people unloved, isolated and alone is not going against the Bible. Everybody needs somebody, sometime. At least people have stopped saying all the gay people in the world have to become straight people, if they don't want be lonely. Now we have to get past looking at lifelong celibacy as the Church's answer to gay people requesting marital relations in a marriage. God is love. The opposite of living in love is living unloved and alone.
@@evelynnelliott2002 According to scripture gay sex is a sin. Sinners are welcome in church but they shouldn't demand the church see their activity as acceptable behavior. Everyone in the church is being changed over time into what God wants us to be but that starts with first accepting what sin may need to be addressed. Facing this does not negate love. Paul didn't have a wife and he didn't see this as a problem.
@@bingo7799 Are you suggesting that when a gay person becomes more mature in faith, he will become the straight person God wants him to be? If a person chooses to live alone like a monk, as Paul did, that's a fine choice. To put a gay person in the position of having no option is another matter. Paul recognized that everybody could not and would not be like him. The church is saying all gay people have to be alone like Paul; straight people can do as they choose. A person can choose to become a slave to others. Giving a person no choice about it is quite different. Parents care for children, and God wants people who belong to him to not leave orphans alone. Marriage is for adults, and God wants people who belong to him to not leave widows alone. God does not want people bereft of a covenant relationship to be left alone. God wants marital relations exclusively in marriages, and no adultery. No prostitution, serial monogamy, pre-marital or extra-marital relations. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were not requesting marital relations. The Bible does not identify gay marital relations in a marriage as a sin.
@@evelynnelliott2002 I don't know your situation and I don't cast judgements but I hold to scriptural truth. We can't bend scripture to our ways. God gives us power to follow His way if we chose to.
@@bingo7799 A gay person cannot choose to become a straight person. I did not "bend scripture" to mean something it does not mean. Scripture recognizes that covenant relationships have great worth, and people without them can be in a poor and sorry state. One doesn't have to be a Catholic Pope well-versed in scripture to recognize that "scriptural truth". Let's just wait and see what "God's way" looks like later, when there is less division and more unity. That's the point of the video.
Dear@@k0smon , It would appear that you have some misconceptions concerning the nature of God. I suspect you are judging God by your own standards. Would it be accurate to say that you have never studied Theology Proper in a course on Systematic Theology ? In essence, God is holy and can not coexist with what is nonholy (sin). God created man with the attributes of volition and man chose to reject God's Standards of holiness. This results in man being separated from a relationship with God, his creator. God is the one who sets the standards of what is sin and what is not and these moral standards proceed from his intrinsic nature. Unfortunately, man in his fallen state, has a distorted perspective of right and wrong and knowing the reality of sin, according to God's standards. We have the tendency to chose what we want to be right and wrong, according to our pleasures and humanistic cultural values, without much regard to what God may have to say. "All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit." (Proverbs 15:2) A residual sense of morality is within us because we were made in the image of God, but that sense of morality has been tainted by the fall and has distorted our perspective of sin. God did send chosen ones to reveal His will to humankind (special revelation, as well as giving us natural revelation concerning His being. Another attribute of God is love. God loves the humans He created and made a way of restoring this broken relationship between man and God through his redeemer, Jesus the anointed one. God loved us so much that while we were still in sin, The anointed one sacrificially died for us. This illustrates the nature of God. God is holy and he loves us sacrificially. He has not left us along and has provide a resolution to our major problem of a relationship with Him. This reveals something of his nature, but sadly, people reject Him, because they want to go their own way. Probable Proverb of King Solomon (16:25) "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Be Well, DZ
@@Silverheart1956 //// God is not a Christian and neither was the supposed Jesus. "He cannot coexist with..." Yes He can, He is all powerful and does according to his nature.
big difference between public sin and private sinners. as far as the church is concerncened. public display will destrou the church community. private will destroy the person. in my opinion. to flaunt sin is to avoid repentence in private
"...When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...." From the Declaration of Independence. . If the Bible continues to be used to "reduce them" to "sinners", for their given constitution, better to reject the Bible than to be so inhumane. Marital relations in a marriage cannot be called sin. To say God wants Christians to "reduce" gay people, or the racially diverse, or the neurologically diverse, or the differently-abled, or woman, or fat people, or anybody is a heart-breaking misuse of the Bible.
My question to those that are trying to change doctrine. Does God change? Those that advocate modifications to God's word will find out soon enough what will happen while kneeling before our lord.
God opened the gates and let us in, so he would not be alone, that was a change. God gave us the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit, so we would not be alone, that was a change. God changed the dietary laws and the everlasting covenant of circumcision, that was a change. At UMC, we celebrate Easter, not Passover, that was a change. We recognize the first day of the week as the Sabbath day, and not the last day of the week, that was a change. You tell me, "Does God change?" Does God reveal something new? Let us at UMC wait and see what truth becomes revealed after this time of change and confusion, when all can see what becomes manifest as indisputable truth.
My heart breaks every Sunday when I attend church and grieve over so few christians...a dark day. The split is already there.....God only accepts his own...the rest are deluded and living in unawareness they are headed to hell....
People are not disagreeing because one side is "deluded and living in unawareness". God "accepts" worshippers and credible Biblical scholars on both sides of this issue. . "Split" is inevitable and peace out of reach when people preach -- Those on one side of this issue are headed to heaven. Those on the other side of this issue and are "headed to hell". . The preacher is preaching patience. Give it time, and we will find holy peace. In the meantime, God is patient with us. Let us show Christian patience to each other. .
I have plenty of friends that are members of the UMC, and they’re wonderful, Jesus-loving people. To abandon the context of the Scripture is a grave thing, and I know those who read between the lines will likely switch to churches that hold the Bible as the authority for all things governing a denomination, unwavering by the world.
Marital relations in marriage is not departure from scripture. Gay marital relations in gay marriage is not departure from Scripture. . Using holy scripture to force homosexual people to be asexual people is wrong. . It's as wrong as using holy scripture to force black people into slavery's forced labor. It's as wrong as using holy scripture to silence all women from speaking in church or to reject them from voting. . To say Sodom and Gomorrah is about gay marriage is to "abandon the context of the Scripture."
God's love is better than health and wealth, comfort and convenience. Raises resilience and speeds recovery. . Marital love is better than health and wealth, comfort and convenience. Raises resilience and speeds recovery. . Hope gay and straight will contribute and benefit from loving each other and living in peace. . More love is better. More love for God. More love for others. That's Biblical. . Let's let gay and straight live in marital love.
All I hear is CURRENT CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. What about the word of GOD in the Bible speaking AGAINST homosexuality? Is the church discounting what GOD says, throughout the Bible? What's more you? The name on the building? Or, is GOD'S word being taught?
The word of God says Homosexuality is sinful, no Christian Pastor has the right to say the Bible is inaccurate. This will surely destroy the Methodist Church as it will have no foundation.
The word of God pertaining to this issue must be consulted and be the basis of policies and decision. If the church departs from the clear meaning and teaching of God's word then the glorious presence of God will depart from the church. Sin, disobedience, idolatry, accomodation of the worldly wisdom are present in many of today’s churches. Christians must never take the glory of God in our midst for granted, lest we wake up one day and find that Ichabod has become a reality among us.
Yes, "we have the responsibility to hold close Scriptural guidance." However, there is not only one single reliable interpretation of "Biblical principles". . What makes it hard is that there are people who are not like us, because the Bible is not without contradicitions. UA-cam: Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? The Problem of Contradictions, by Bart D. Ehrman
@@rstevewarmorycom What are you saying about the Four Pillars? . Four pillars -- (1) Scripture, (2) Tradition, (3) Reason (4) Experience. (1) Updated translations differ from King James Version. (2) Traditions vary-- meeting in circles in people's homes or make the preacher in the pulpit the pinnacle of a pyramid. (3) Proof by signs and miracles, or scientifically proven. (4) Experience by words that can be taught and learned or experience of inexplicable presence and power of faith. . What are you saying about the Four Pillars?
People make this out to be all about homosexuality when at its core is an extremely large rift between scriptural orthodoxy and utter pandemonium you see in the UMC right now.
“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet. The Methodist Church has lost its saltiness. That is why it is falling apart.
Honestly, very simple... FOLLOW THE WORD OF GOD, God doesnt need any assistance to His Word, Its very straight forward, anything less is not His Word. If someone wants to go and do something new, then be free, but as for where this denomination is today, how is was established, How God founded it, leave it alone, if someone wants to follow their desires and flesh, there is plenty of places to go where someone will embrace your flawed theology
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For salvation, we just need to follow the way they did it in Acts? They were baptized in water for the removal of sins and filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38! Here's why! The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. If we are to follow him, we must do the same thing. Death= repentance, Burial = baptism, and resurrection = being filled and rising again from the dead and walking in the newness of life. That's what Acts 2:38 is. We must obey the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ... Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in Heaven. St John 3:3-5, EXCEPT a man, be born of WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD. We can't come up with our own gospel. Galatians 1:8-9, But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Don't be cursed. One way for all people. Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans. Our salvation has to match up with the scriptures and no scriptures on the subject can be taken away. Eternity is TOOO long to be WRONG! st, John 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. The gospels show what Christ has done on the cross for us. The book of Acts shows us the beginning of Christ's Church and how to enter the Church, obeying Acts 2:38. The letters were written to the Church to show us how to behave now that we are born again into the Church. It's better to walk alone than to walk with a crowd going in the wrong direction. Are we supposed to follow the teachings of the apostles? Acts 2:42, And they continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrines. Ephesians 2:20, We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Don't get Titus 3:5 mixed up with James 2:14-26, about WORKS. One is a WORK of your OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS OR GOOD DEEDS and the other is a WORK OF FAITH. Titus 1:16, They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. God bless you!
Yes, keep the main thing the main thing, without distraction. FWI Christians are giving the anti-gay agenda priority over addressing Africa's disease, poverty, illiteracy, and bringing peace to the war-torn continent. FWI Christians are advancing harsh penalties in anti-gay legislation for developing countries in Africa. FWI Christians are at the UN advancing anti-gay language and disabling its education to decrease unwanted pregnancies and diseases. (BBC) FWI Christians are claiming science says gay people are pedophiles and conversion therapy works. (Southern Poverty Law Center) Christians like myself are claiming the Bible speaks against sexually perverted acts, which does not included marital relations in a gay marriage. Each camp is appalled at the other. That goes beyond people of faith being dismissive of scientific reasoning, and people of science being dismissive of blind faith. A day will come when science and faith can walk together in peace and harmony. Let's wait patiently, and not let this distract us from keeping our focus on being better Christians.
Churches said the Bible justified the genocide of indigenous Americans. Churches said the Bible justified enslaving indigenous Africans. Churches said the Bible justified denying women a right to vote. Churches now say the Bible justifies denying gay people marital relations. As Jesus says..."Come out of her!" Both sides can claim, "God is on my side." Let peace abide. "We, in our current opinions, are not the center of the universe." ~ Lovett Weems, 12:40 in this video
In my state there are no free Methodist churches. The bishop decided that homosexuality and being transgender is okay and that all the Methodists churches must except and teach that. In fact, all protestants churches are following that line. They no longer believe that the bible is the word of God. Whatever society wants they bow down to. My family have been Methodists for generations. I personally resent being pushed out of my own church because it no longer follows the word God.
@@nancykarson3635 if your church can push u out, it was NEVER worth being in. The Bible tells us the Church is TRUTH. So if your church teaches gay marriage, it ain’t truth.
To me it is a matter of honoring the discipline. If the Methodist Church votes to allow homosexuals to be married and preach from the pulpit in the church and the Book of Discipline is altered to put this change into effect, I will accept it and stay within the UMC. For bishops to openly defy the Discipline prior to a formal vote and subsequent amendment is unacceptable to me. And far more egregious is the UMC's failure to discipline and even go so far as condone bishops who preach from the pulpit "Jesus was a bigot" and allow ministers to dress up in drag and preach to "The great queer one". That is unacceptable to me as a Christian.
The sanity of the middle way is presented by Weems, while the extremists get too much attention. As you say "even go so far". Let's turn our focus off the far out. How far is too far can be a problem, so let's just try to keep centered on progress toward coming together. . Better if laws can become just before resisting unjust laws, but that is not always possible. Martin Luther King was seeking to change unjust laws by disobeying them, to break down walls of "separate but equal". Connecting together is preferable to separating, and passively "waiting" for inclusion with diversity had become resistance to progress forward. . There can be no law against being gay; it is not something a person chooses. Just laws will fit with that reality. .
No church discipline or discipleship....what did they think would happen...we can only keep trying to spread the gospel.....many in the church are the ones that refuse to change or turn from their sins and self worship
Love it, Weems. Thank you for speaking out against letting UMC marriage cause divorce and separation, and for speaking on behalf of patience for peace and unity within our UMC church. Love it, Weems.
We must avoid making God in our image rather than God making us in His image. Do we follow God's law or man's law? Romans 1 is clear about all this. Humans are flawed, God is perfect.
Christians fail to treat gay people with kindness and respect (Romans 12:10, KJV & GNT) when we identify them as being born as flawed humans to justify forcing them to behave like straight people or to have no marriage at all. . Christians failed to treat black people with kindness and respect when they made them slaves. Christians failed to treat female people with kindness and respect when they silenced them from speaking in church and voting at the polls. . "Follow God's law" or disturb the peace. Treat black people with kindness and respect. Treat women with kindness and respect. Treat gay people with kindness and respect. . God is love. God is peace. "God is perfect."
God, who "is perfect", allows people to have evil thoughts. Romans 1:28 "So God let them continue to have evil thoughts." Romans 1:31 says that God likes his people to be kind. . God told the servants to leave the weeds to be cultivated with the crop of wheat, because the servants could make mistakes. Let the full-grown weeds and the full-grown wheat be separated at harvestime. Matthew 13:30 ~~ "Let both grow together until the harvest." Follow God's law. Wait. Servants can make errors while plucking prematurely. . .............................. You tell us to read Romans 1. . Romans1:11 I want to make you strong by giving you a gift from the Holy Spirit. ... 1:16 It is God’s power to save everyone who believes.... 1:17 The good news shows God’s power to make people right with himself. God’s power to be made right with him is given to the person who has faith. It happens by faith from beginning to end. .... 1:28 They didn’t think it was important to know God. So God let them continue to have evil thoughts. They did things they shouldn’t do. 1:29 They hate others. They say mean things about other people. 1:30 They tell lies about them. .... 1:31 They do not understand. .... They are not loving and kind.
Uh oh, this guy just suggested that people use reason and discuss theology intelligently while respecting differing conclusions to logical discourse. That kind of thing isn't allowed anymore.
12:09min. 70% say they join with others, to stand up together with those who are not like themselves, to remain united as one body under one Lord, right wing and left wing moving forward as one, each respectfully valuing the contributions of the various parts of the body of Christ, until God reveals with manifest clarity a proper interpretation of his word. . What will be revealed is not yet illuminated for us. One is not a "coward" to stand up with me, though they disagree with my conviction that God's word supports believing this -- When people are born to be "homosexual", they're not born to be single and celebate. Marital relations in a marriage is not "sin" or "perversion". Get married beforehand. Stay married thereafter. Gay or straight-- date 2 yrs mate 4 life. . "When we agree to disagree, we honor the relationship above trying to change the person."
As Pastor Jimmy Towson said, in his State of the UMC update, "This is only the tip of the iceberg." To find out just how far the church has fallen watch his March 21, video.
The church has fallen, away from love and peace toward hate and division. The Bible has been used to defend the worst atrocities of human history, including the holocaust of the Jews, the genocide of Native Americans, the enslavement of Native Africans, the subjugation and silencing of women, which sought to deny their right to vote. Now, Christians want to use the Bible to require some people to live a life of celibacy that denies them the most treasured human experience -- intimacy with another human being.
There's no such thing as same sex marriage as far as Christianity is concerned...you either believe in scripture or you don't....i understand why people like eastern Orthodoxy..they know the importance of scripture and they don't allow society to dictate what the " belief du jur" is....
The indispensable value of marriage is not touching each other with touchy-feely hands, but helping each other with helpful hands, a suitable "helpmate" for life's journey and a companion to share intimacies. We say, "family of God" but there are many activities we do exclusively with family, so that we all (gay/straight) do well in a marriage covenant. . Most married people value their spouse more than any material possession-- house, car, family heirloom, any treasure; more than a good reputation or success. Withholding marriage is to withhold from a select minority a valued spouse. Expecting all gay people to live and die without a marriage is not reasonable. . Gay or straight, all do well to experience love and intimacy with a lifelong spouse. "It is not good for the man to be alone." (Genesis 2:18) That's scriptural, and stands to reason for those who care to listen to reason. . To say the Bible asserts otherwise is like looking in a telescope then adamantly declaring the earth is flat, because the Bible says so. . Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use."
@@garyelliott8768 again justify the unjustified....next it will be 8 year old marrage ...like Islam ..Leviticus is absolutely clear as is Saint Paul.....
@@horacerumpole7629 This is also "absolutely clear" -- according to Biblical scripture, not allowing "society to dictate" -- if a gay marriage relationship is rich in the fruits of spirit, there is no law against it-- it bears good fruit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self- control, (Galatians 5:22-23). . The pharisees often offered futile defense against Jesus that the love of the law held a seat above the law of love. "The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outside of a person. But the Lord looks at what is in the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7) . Let the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest, lest God's humble servants pluck the wrong sprout in error, (Matthew 13:29). . Let us commune at one and the same table with our differences of opinion. "Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? Whether they are faithful or not is their own master’s concern," (Romans 14:4). The message of this video is "Let us do all we can to live in peace," (Romans 14:29) while we hold differences of opinion about what is "absolutely clear". . Let's wait to see which opinion perishes, and goes the way of slavery, the slaughter of "savages", and silencing the vote of women. . "What's next?" you ask. People have been prejudiced against one group after another from the beginning until now. Surely another group will become the target of prejudice, even among God's people. I certainly hope not. You use the phrase, "belief du jur." I could say, "prejudice du jur." . An 8-yr-old cannot date publicly a couple years before considering a lifelong covenant relationship. That is completely unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. The way of pedophiles will perish. Gay marriage does not lead to pedophile marriage. . Differences of opinion are not going to go away. When God said we had to live in peace with each other, he was not thinking peace will come when differences of opinion cease to exist, but when we can get along with those who are not like us and do not agree with our opinion. . Let's just wait to see what becomes "absolutely clear."
Ossified truth is dead and irrelevant. "Viable" truth grows and matures. "Single and celibate" negates the truth that "It is not good for the man to be alone", which God said while he had perfect unblemished fellowship with Adam. God repeated that it is not good for man to be alone, when he instructed us to care for widows and orphans, while giving his people a law and a land. Jesus said he would not leave us alone. God repeated that it is not good for man to be alone, when he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. The law that needs to be venerated is the one in the Ten Commandments, about not committing adultery. Marital relations is for married couples. People need to have marriages to keep marital relations in marriages. God has repeatedly made things new, breaking away from the ossified old, for the purpose of alleviating isolation. New wine needs new wineskins. Let us put proposals on the table.
@@keithwilson6060 Would any person welcome being told, "You must be isolated and alone, single and celibate, like it or not"? It was "good" for us that Jesus chose to be alone. It is "good" for some people to be alone. It is not "good" to say all people born gay must be alone. It was not "good" to say all people born black can be enslaved. Some people choose to make themselves slaves to others. "You're a widow?! Oh, so sad. Come into my home and let me serve you supper." Demanding that a person forfeit his freedom, and compelling him to be your slave to sweat out your work is not "good". Some people have a euphoric experience of being single and celibate. Fine and "good". Not everyone does. Demanding that gay people forfeit having a marriage, and compelling them to be single and celibate is not "good". Some people experience being self-loathing and suicidal, because of the Christian construct about their given identity. Asking that gay people step into being isolated and alone (like the widows and orphans God's law places in our care) is not "good". Change shoes. Imagine saying to straight people, "Cut off from your beloved spouse, to be single and celibate for your salvation." Straight people are not always being procreational. Straight people bond with each other for a more cohesive marital union. The scriptures say to gouge out your eye, if you cannot turn your eyes away, or cut off your hand, if your hand is getting you into trouble. (Matthew 5:29, 18:9; Mark 9:43) Imagine "good" Christians composing a construct that compels mutilation for salvation. Would that suffice what the Bible said? Would that be "good"? Would you then ask, "Was it good for Jesus to be mutilated?"
@@evelynnelliott2002 You are responding solely from emotion, not from reason or biblical authority or wisdom. That is why women have no business being in leadership positions.
@@keithwilson6060 "Two Papal Bulls- 1452 pertaining to Africa and 1493 to the Americas- are known as the Doctrines of Christian Discovery and Domination. These documents allowed European settler colonialists to profit through taking ownership of land and enslaving Black and Indigenous people." -Lelia DeAndrade Portland, Maine . That was 1492, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue. . Now, the male monarch of Christendom calls for gay people to be "single and celibate". . No land. No freedom. No marriage. . So say the male Popes. No heart. . That is why UMC women get a voice in the discussion. .
Christianity should look the same in all countries. It makes no sense for the US UMC to leave the wider Church body. That's a political move, not a spiritual one. It is hypocritical to want the US to have different rules than the rest of the world, but not want to split inside the US.
Better to belong to God's church....attending any church means that many are not christians....it is still the narrow way with few who enter....makes it quite lonely as so many are so selfish and unloving
There was no gay marriage for homosexuals to have marital relations in marriage, when Lev. 18:22 was made holy scripture. Gay marital relations in gay marriage is not a detestable sin. . If the Bible cannot be living scripture it will become a dead document and the churches vacant tombs. . Date 2 yrs. Mate 4 life
False prophets were prophesied by Jesus. We must be very alert and KNOW God's Word, repent, & live life He created & in the purpose He had for mankind in His natural order. ALL through the Bible the natural family was everything to Him, the 'SON' of God.
The One Church Plan supported by two thirds of the U.S. delegates supports "diverse Theological and Scriptural Understandings, removes negative and restrictive language about homosexuality and states that "no annual conference, Bishop, congregation or Pastor must act contrary to their convictions". Is basically gives license to reject the governance of the Book of Discipline in favor of self governance.
Sounds like a good comprise which recognizes that the right wing and left wing can come together in unity, so the one body of Christ can straighten up and fly right, in line with the Prince of Peace.
So under the "One Church Plan", when an annual conference appoints a minister to a local congregation, that local congregation would be able to reject the appointment? No, I didn't think so.
How is it that you cite the value of tradition in one breath and, in the very next, demand unity? (12:45) I have to wonder if you're paying attention to what's going on in our denomination and if you understand the "change above all else" nature of progressivism.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-13 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You got to your current dilemma because you, the UMC as a whole, apostasized from Christianity and decided you could make it up as you go along and the the Bible was no more from God than your own corrupt thoughts.
How many people who commit sins that are an abomination to God, get married every day. How do churches differentiate them. Are there any preachers who even mention the others sins that are an abomination to God.
Homosexual marital relations in a homosexual marriage covenant is not an abomination to God, sexually perverted or sinful. Calling for God's blessing on gay people to enter into a marriage covenant is not condoning unrepentant sinful behavior that begs for grace, mercy, forgiveness. Marriage is for everybody, gay or straight. I believe that is what a proper translation of the Bible reveals as God's will for his people.
There are credible scholars who have studied the bible, and have followed Jesus a long distance and are every bit as Christian as those who stand in opposition to them. . People on both sides "really know Jesus". People on both sides really know "his word". . Division is entrenched and patience for peace thins when people refuse to believe that.
@@jimrylander9143 A church that turns a blind eye and deaf ear to culture would become as extinct as a dinosaur. Churches thrive with dynamic growth by changing with current times, the people who occupy them, and the upcoming generations. . What remains and what changes is debatable, and has been debated in the past. That is the point of the video. To divide the church during times of debate is not prudent. . History shows that debated topics of the past have become irrelevant. Be patient about moving forward together, because today's debate will become irrelevant farther down the road. . Let us live with each other in peace, and lead others to live in peace.
@@garyelliott8768 if you bring sin into the camp as a norm for the church it’s not culture. Culture of any type shouldn’t be permitted to bring belief systems like homosexuality into the church. If you don’t believe the bible so be it. Don’t call yourself Christian
@@jimrylander9143 Agreed. Culture has no place in defining sin. Credible theologians have a place in defining what is and is not sin. Theologians are not in agreement. For example, Sodom and Gamorrah says nothing about gay people having marital relations in a marriage. . Acknowledging that there could be more clarity in the future is not letting culture make decisions for the church regarding sin. Again, let there be peace until the dispute is settled.
AMEN brother on your closing statement! We are nothing without Jesus. Our particular church seems to be way too focused on differences and 'policy/regulations'....which seems to me just what the Pharisees were doing back in Jesus' time, rather than love and be a beacon of hope to the lost. Thank you for putting this all togetheir. It helps to clarify where we are.
Yes, indeed, we do well to love those on both sides of this issue and not let conflict foster enmity. We do well to be grateful for the small steps in the right direction which may be less than satisfying. We do well to focus less on differences and regulations, more on loving and being a "beacon of hope to the lost". We do well to usher in a world where distinctions and differences do not serve to disturb the peace. "It helps to clarify where we are" as peacemakers journey toward peace in our church, peace in our world.
What’s Love Got To Do With It? In Revelation 3:15 Jesus says to the last of the 7 Churches: “I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! But because you are lukewarm and neither hot or cold. I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Why would a Christian Hierarchy fail to heed such a dire warning and compromise what the Bible has to say about the sexually immoral? Probably because nearly 50% of their members agree with the LGBTQ+ agenda? And that is likely because they haven’t been able to honor God’s design for sex themselves. Considering how Jesus felt about hypocrisy, such a attitude is understandable. But there’s a difference between this sin today and what it was in previous generations. And the difference is monumental. People have become proud of it. Celebrating it with it’s own flag and putting it on parade for an entire month. Pride itself is a sin but being proud of immorality is surely the essence of depravity. There were ample warning’s about the circumstances likely to follow the legalization of gay marriage. But, as usual, prophets are largely ignored. Consequences most disturbing have come into play: Transgenders in school rooms, corrupting childhood innocence. This perversion comes straight out of the pit of Hell and it isn’t lukewarm, it is cold blooded evil. Back in the 50’s and 60’s, when sex was coined as “making love”, my generation bought it and sought it. The chant of “make love…not war” made great sense. Sex was undeniably preferable to fighting for a cause we didn’t understand. It was an easy sell for Satan; a little truth to deceive us in a deeper circumstance. He’s using the same ploy now with “Who are you, to say whom someone should love?” What’s love got to do with it? In today’s world, precious little. Yet, today’s modern generation equates sex with love. How naïveté - the act has digressed into an activity of vanity. It’s more of a what’s in it for me conquest. We are inundated with lust. Lust for pleasure, lust for power, lust for money or whatever serves our vain natures. A wise man once said: “Lust is the counterfeit of love.” Dismal is the church that preaches appeasement over repentance on this issue. Such a doctrine has nothing in common with the Gospel and it makes a sham of the cross. Is your church lukewarm on this matter of faith…are you? Do not dread the price of obedience to Jesus Christ - His dividend’s extend beyond eternity.
Being a former Episcopalian this is odd to watch as I somewhat assumed they were more progressive than us. Now a member of a Southern Baptist Convention affiliated church I know we are much more conservative yet more decentralized.
Deceived to believe God opposes gay people having marital relations in marriage, and misleading people to view marital relations in marriage as perverted.
I think it is odd how denominations all founded by men and not by Christ get all bent out of shape about this question and what Jesus says about divorce means nothing to them and if you get divorced, yeah well who cares. To listen to the plight of someone who struggles with homosexuality and believe it was a choice or just live alone and not share a life, of course that decision being made by heterosexual people, does not mean anything. The Scriptures condemn many things: "oh well, but this is what we feel uncomfortable with."
Gay or straight, sexually perverted behavior is sinful and harmful. Gay or straight, marital relations apart from marriage is sinful. Gay or straight, marital relations in a marriage is not sinful. Reputable scholars have shown that belief is supported by scripture. "A text out of context is a pretext for a proof-text." . Homosexuals are not asexual beings designed to be single and celebate from cradle to grave. Gay or straight, all people need to get married to have marital relations in a marriage. Gay or straight, Date 2 yrs. Mate 4 life
This man describes wanting not to kick any sinful members out....that’s not what the Bible teaches. 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 ESV / 24 helpful votes It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ...
Passing on DNA is one path to the survival of a species. Another path for the survival of the species is to focus less on bringing up a new generation, more on strengthening bonds in the current generation. [See the TED Talk "Homosexuality: It's About Survival".] Bringing more peace than division assists the survival of the species.
"Every man did what was right in his own eyes." That is you now. How will that work out for you? What is said about the natural state of the human heart?
@@toomanymarys7355 White Supremacists have been using the Bible to advance their various causes in this country since the Declaration of Independence. Keep the slaves obeying their masters. Keep the women silent on election day. Keep gay people single and celibate from cradle to grave. Today's issue is right on track with previous issues that divided Christians. Let's just walk further down the road, to wait and see what looks right in the eyes of United Methodists. -- Eve Lynn
Well I will never understand is why “the church“ always picks out one or two of their “Pet sins” they “stand firm on“ yet their churches are full of people who are sleeping with people they’re not married to, teenagers in premarital sex, adulterers, people who are greedy, people who are liars, people who are gossip mongers and they file into the church and sings hymns right next to all them without ever blinking… Yet this one issue suddenly they’re clutching their pearls and passing out at how horrible it is… It’s hypocrisy… And to watch the church this last four years prop up and support a man who is a vulgar adulteress greedy man as president without even blinking and yet they’ll split a denomination over letting a gay person worship with them and serve… ridiculous!! Be consistent or shut up!
@@rickj9615 The Roman Catholic Church The Church is one The Church is holy The Church is apostolic The Church is dynastic The Church is Hierarchical The Church is messy The Church is Mystery The Church is teacher The Church is Mother The Church is universal The Church is sacramental The Church is authoritative The Church is visible The Church is unchangeable The Church is missionary The Church is the Kingdom of God The Church is TRUTH The Church is the bride of Christ. The Church is the mystical body of Christ The Church is in the world not of the world.
Helpful to point out that we are sometimes put in the position of letting extremists give identity to those who are more willing to live together with those whom they disagree, through a time of cultivation and all the stages with progress toward fruition of what will be revealed, "in due season". Nobody argues about slavery. Let's wait until we "see clearly". . ........................................ Here's what the speaker said ~ . [There is a small portion] of people who can hardly bear to be in a church where people disagree with them, at this moment, about homsexuality. . [The larger portion] disagree, but none of them wants to push anyone out of the church, and certainly don't want their church dissolved. . The largest group is either traditionalists for one [united] church or progressives for one church.... We desperately need a way to honor conscience and still live together. . Until that day, and I am confident it will come, when God's wisdom for the future is more clearly revealed, if some cannot abide this diversity, departure is an honorable decision. But bringing chaos to thousands of churches who do not share such certainty and impatience is not. ....In Christ we trust that, in due season, we shall see more fully what is now seen only dimly. .
Dear @@UCLW_cWzTBLDckYGmioto2_Q Yes "[There is a small portion] of people who can hardly bear to be in a church where people disagree with them, at this moment, about homosexuality. That would be Jesus Christ. He is the extremist. It is his way or go it on your own. "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. " (The Words of Jesus as recored in John 14:6) Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, is the standard setter: not our culture, our personal feelings of right or wrong, our "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." (Proverbs. 16:25) Be Well, DZ
@@Silverheart1956 "But the Bible says....." Christians quoted the Bible's assertion that the earth has four corners, when others believed the earth was round. Christians quoted the Bible's assertion that dinosaurs were not created, when others believed in fossils. Christians quoted the Bible's assertion that slaves must obey their masters, when others believed slaves should be freed. Christians quoted the Bible's assertion that a woman must remain silent, when others believed women should vote and be able to read scripture in church. Some Christians today believe that standing with Jesus gives them license to say, "My way, or the highway to hell," or to say, "Stand with us, or stay home," or "It is his way, or go it on your own." . The difference between Christians today and Christians in controversy in the past is that Christians today prefer to go home and not congregate with people who want to proclaim from the pulpit their beliefs that the earth is flat, dinosaurs never existed, blacks should be kept down, women should remain silent, and a person born gay must live a celebate life and die a virgin, because that is God's plan for their lives. Let them find a place for themselves among the widows and orphans. Better to get along and remain united until later, when we get beyond this division.
Dear@@evelynnelliott2002 , There are many who profess to be "Christians" that say many absurd things. You have to understand that many "Christians" are basically illiterate when it comes to Christian Theology and Philosophy, and in general, the Christian Worldview. So I can agree with you on many of the assertions you make. One very basic axiom in the scholarly world, is that we shouldn't take examples from the fringe, and use these aberrations as the standard for the whole. There is a logical fallacy for this kind of thinking. It is called a "Strawman Argument". For example, I know many people who I consider genuine Christians, however I personally don't know, even one Christian, who claims the "the earth is flat". For you to generalize that belief to the whole is an inaccurate stereotype, and if you are trying to use that as evidence to show Christian thought is somehow questionable, is an example of using the logical fallacy of the "Strawman Argument". That would be an example of faulty thinking. We can discuss any of the issues you mentioned, on a case by case conversation, if you like, "Some Christians today believe that standing with Jesus gives them license to say, "My way, or the highway to hell,"" Actually according to the Christian Worldview, this attitude is not acceptable. There is no "my way", in genuine Christianity. However, it is acceptable to say there is a "God's way", in Christianity. Christians seek God's will for mankind and for their own lives. This is one of the basic premises of Christian thought and behavior. God knows mankind much better that we know ourselves. He gets to set the standards, not us. Perhaps you have confused the "my way" with "God's way". One of the basic anthropological teachings of Christianity is that, Man (mankind, all of us) are created in the image of God. It seems today that some people want to create God in our image. They don't like the standards God has asserted, and they think He is wrong. They seem to believe human omniscience is more reliable, so they either out right reject God's standards, or they "alter" God's standards, to make the standards conform to their way of thinking (in essence, creating their own God, in the likeness of human understanding). I have heard some people say, "God just doesn't understand". Such a statement exhibits a very significant misunderstanding concerning the Christian worldview and God. Concerning Homosexuality, You asserted "a person born gay" as if we have determined the actual cause of homosexuality. There are three major theories. 1. Genetic determinism - the genes (genotype) of the homosexual has determined that he or she is biologically determined to have same sex attractions. 2, Environmental Factors - the way we are brought up and other environmental factors condition and affect same sex attraction. 3. Epigenetics - environmental factors affect the genetic expression that switch parts of the genome on & off at strategic times during the life cycle. Many scientists are leaning towards Epigenetics, however, I think the phenomenon of homosexuality is more diverse than many perceive and that different causes are responsible for different type of homosexuality. There is a lot of evidence for environmental factors and epigenetics. Not as much for genetic hard wiring. How does the science affect Christian thought ? All the theories of the cuase of homosexuality are very compatible with Christian Theology and none of the theories excuse homosexual behavior. "gay must live a celebate life and die a virgin". This is not quite true. However, that is an option.. I will let you think on this and see if you can think of why this assertion is not necessarily true. Please let me know of what you come up with. Be Well, DZ
@@Silverheart1956 . Thank you for speaking plainly, DZ, about the views of many in our United Methodist Church. . On Monday, May 17, 2021 a "flat-earther" was arrested for disrupting a City Council meeting in Watertown, NY. The article posted in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise on Wednesday, May 19, 2021, also stated that his views on homosexuality were based on his religious beliefs. . Why are there, today, no Methodists who believe that the Earth is flat preaching their beliefs from our United Methodist Church pulpits? . Why are there, today, no Methodists who don't believe in dinosaurs preaching their beliefs from our United Methodist Church pulpits? . Why are there, today, no Methodists who believe in owning slaves preaching their beliefs from our United Methodist Church pulpits? . Why are there, today, no Methodists who object to female ministers preaching their beliefs from our United Methodist Church pulpits? . Why? Because we came to a place of agreement. We have come to agreement before, we can do it again. . To say straight people can live in holy matrimony after a church wedding, and gay people must be united by the state government is too much like saying that white people can drink from a marble basin with gold spout while black people drink from a cob-job spigot on a pipe. . Let it be like that for now, so we can remain united until there is consensus, as there is now consensus on views that, at one time, caused hot-headed people to have heated debates about issues that have since died and become cold. . The United Methodist Church cannot stand behind gay marriage, because there is not the support for it, now. Is it necessary to have support for it, now, without delay, in a separated church? . It is necessary for those who believe in Jesus and those who do not believe in Jesus to worship in separate churches, synagogues, temples. . It is not necessary for those who believe in dinosaurs and those who do not believe in dinosaurs to worship separately. . The question on the table is this: Is it necessary for United Methodists to worship separately? Let's chill, and let the issue simmer awhile, as one United Methodist Church. . Jesus' death-bed wish was that his followers would be "one". (John 17:21) Let us remain one United Methodist Church, until a new day dawns. . Henri J.M. Nouwen ~ "A waiting person is a patient person. The word patience means the willingness to stay where we are and live the situation out to the full in the belief that something hidden there will manifest itself to us."
Dear@@evelynnelliott2002, The various examples you give flat earth, dinosaurs, slavery, etc. are non sequiturs to the issue of "agreement", because of the diversity of the issues. Agreement can be legitimate or illegitimate. We can discuss each of those issues independently, as each should be done, if you would like. Your point appears to be "we came to a place of agreement." That is the problem ! Particularly the word "we". Consider the fact that "agreement", does not necessarily lead to truth. Agreement and unity, have a very diluted meaning and significance, if, it is not based on the foundation of truth. To illustrate this principle, consider that there was much agreement and unity in the Nazi Party, in 1940. But ,Truth was sacrificed. What value is agreement and unity, if it is unity in error ? The problem with the agreement in the UMC is that "the people" are making the agreement, as if the church was a democracy. Emphatically not ! The true church of God is composed of believers who desire to submit to the benevolent standards and will, of a sovereign being, Yahweh, the creator, of all that is; that is who we as Christians worship and submit to. It is his standards that we desire to conform our lives to, at the exclusion of our own desires. The major point of agreement, is that the people of God are, in "agreement", with God. That is of first concern. Look at these two verses carefully, and consider the basic concepts they are teaching. They present some of the basic, foundational concepts of genuine Christianity. "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (Rom. 12:1-2) Consider that we are to be "living sacrifices", "holy" (set apart from sin), "acceptable to God" (acceptable by His standards), This is what genuine "spiritual worship" is; a sacrificed, holy life, acceptable to God. Paul warns us to avoid being "conformed to this world" (the world is trying to minimize God's standards of sin and holy living). We are to "be transform". Into what ? Into a godly follower of Jesus, God's anointed, in agreement with the standards mentioned in vs. 1. How are we transformed ? By the "renewing of your mind". This is partly an educational process where we come to know God more deeply. Knowing God, through what He has said, is very important. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17) May God use Scripture to, teach, reproof, correct and train us. For what ? Righteousness. (obviously a righteousness in God's will). This is done so we may be complete and equipped for His work. God has expressed His standard concerning the practice of homosexuality. The practice of homosexuality is not to be accepted by His church, under His standards. Our sentiments, opinions, feelings, emotions, clever human reasonings, etc., are not authoritative over, God's standards. Remember, Genuine Christians desire to conform their lives, attitudes, thoughts, behaviors, words etc. to God's Standards. We welcome homosexuals to attend our church and will be sensitive to their human dignity and worth as being created in the image of God, as all humans are. They should be cared for and loved. However, we should lovingly explain that God does not accept their behavior or attitude, of acceptance of this particular sin or any sins. (some people don't like the word "sin". They say it is an old fashion concept. That is probably because they have misunderstandings concerning the concept and have never taken a course in Hamartiology, Most Christians are theologically illiterate) Perhaps in your mind this would seem harsh, but it would be the same with most any other people, and the sin they approve of. We love the sinner but disapprove of the sin following the example of God. (ROM. 5:8) The only exceptions would be sins that cause direct harm or endangerment to another. (I don't see homosexuality as a sin that directly endangers life, but may indirectly). If your son believed there was nothing wrong with being drunk while driving, you would probably express your disagreement with this behavior, but you would still love and care for him. If you knew he was going to get drunk and drive that night, I hope you would stop it because it would directly endanger someone's life. Reporting him and stopping his behavior, would also be an act of love towards him. Since anyone advocating this homosexuality would be advocating sin, he or she would not be allowed as a member of God's Church. (yes, this would include nonhomosexuals). Most churches do not practice the doctrine of exclusion of sin or disfellowshipping because of sin. I suspect one reason is because many churches want as large of a church roll as they can get, so they overlook the significance of sin and sacrifice truth for the sake of unity (and big numbers which may also means big income). These are churches that have "conformed to this world". I noticed in your post, you didn't speak much about God, His standards, His will, agreeing with Him, and about His Church. I can't help but to wonder why. I think if the UMC continues to conform to the social and moral norms of our society and culture, the UMC will dilute its authentic spiritual relationship with the true God and become a mere social club assembly (church) of religious people. The genuine Christians will recognize this fall, and leave the UMC. Be Well, DZ
As a Lutheran, I am sad to hear of your scysim. You will be left with a overly progressive church that stands for little and a conservative church that is excessively isolated and shuns new members who do not align perfectly with chruch doctrine. It would be best to have 1 church that can work through these issues.
I'm glad I don't belong to a denomination.If you want truth check out shepherds chapel.chapter by chapter verse by verse reading from King James and using Strong's concordance bible dictionary in Greek and Hebrew.
The Bible thwarted the liberation of slaves. The Bible thwarted the vote for women. The Bible thwarted land acknowledgement for indigenous people around the world. The Bible has gotten us "lost" in the past, and this video reminds us of that. Let's be more patient today than we were then.
Most of the jerks in society seem to sit in the front pews of all churches, I avoid them and worship on my back porch. That way I am the only jerk that is available.
Worshipping together can be done in circles, sitting on a back porch, with a zoom meeting, around a fire pit, at a coffee shop, in small groups. No pulpit. No pews.
You must forsake allowing and condoning sinful acts. Le. 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Read all of Leviticus chapter 18). What we need to know about ourselves from God's Word and our only hope of being justified before God: [WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE IN OURSELVES: Mk. 7:20-23 And he (Jesus) said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things (sins) come from within, and defile the man.] [WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR: Rom. 3:10-28 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his (God's) sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Joh. 14:6 For God so loved the world (us), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:]
How you got to this sad state, Is by turning your back on the living God, Pleasing men rather than God.
This just opens the door to picking which sin will be embraced and which part of the Holy Bible will be disregarded. It is marking God a liar and denying His Holiness and Sovereignty. It Says in John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It also says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, which means Jesus IS the Word. Denying the Word or disobeying it, is denying Jesus. So sad, He died to deliver us from the bondage of sin and yet an entire denomination is acting as if, He is not the Christ, the Word. The body of Christ cannot deny itself, lest it is really not be part of the Body. Pray for Holiness of all of the body of Christ.
Who started the original " church "?. Was it a social club ? Was it started to conform to man's ideas ? Or, was it to be a light in a very dark place ? GOD started the church, not man. Man can do what ever he wants, GOD gave man a free will. And the options to choose good or evil. Some one said " as for me and my house, we will follow the LORD ".
Actually. Humans created gods. Notice how each culture has a god that fits their needs. People choose churches that fit their morals. That's why there are so many churches. We create gods and religions then tell each other the ideas came from a god.
The church is believers in Christ. God created the church. Denominations came along and decided to "tweek" Gods plan. And it's been going on ever since.
Christ gave it to Simon Peter.
@@claires9100
I agree.
That's why people should just start a church of their liking.
If you don't like women preacher's don't go to that type of church.
If you're gay just start a gay church, just like the blacks did when they weren't accepted in most white churches.
@@claires9100 God sent messengers to each culture.
Each messenger's message was delivered in a language
suitable for the ears of the people in that culture.
Apostle Paul said if a person is in sin and they are suppose to be a Christian and they refuse to give it up then put them out.
Okay, that's Paul. What did Jesus say?
Jesus said that the servants should
let the wheat and weeds grow together,
because errors could be made by the
servants who take it upon themselves
to pull the weeds up prematurely.
(Matthew 13:24-30)
Leave it alone for now,
and see how it looks later.
@@garyelliott8768We grow together in the world. Key word " World" Even the text goes on to say that the field is the " World" not inside the church.
This is exactly the problem right here. People opening their mouths who have no knowledge. God commands in another place "Be not uequally yoked with unbelievers" Get it right.
@@bible1st The time of the harvest has not come, and today's current church is not the barn for the wheat only. Plucking people out of the church is subject to error. To avoid being unequally yoked is not a call to avoid diversity and inclusion in the church. Gay people are not "unbelievers". Scholarly "believers" disagree about the translation and interpretation of what is written. There is agreement that what is written is the standard. There is disagreement about the translation and interpretation of what is written. "Get it right" and telling others to "get it right" for distinguishing wheat and weeds is not what we are called to do. Getting it right and plucking people out of the church is subject to error and not our job now. Being of service for helping others with charitable compassion and cultivating charitable compassion in others is our job now. Indentifying and plucking weeds comes later, at the time of the harvest. That's pretty much what Lovett Weems says. Let's not be so hasty and have patience. Let's wait and see what this debate looks like when it is more fully matured, and make a decision about what the more mature field looks like, so we can clearly distinguish, with less error, between the wheat and the weeds.
I left this apostate church when my pastor said on Easter morning “ theologians have debate whether the resurrection was physical or spiritual. I can’t say because I wasn’t there! “ This was the last of many unbiblical statements I heard from this pastor. When I questioned him he merely said, “ this is how I was taught “. Duke University chapel actually considered playing the Muslim call to prayer from their spire. Completely unacceptable. I joined a reformed Presbyterian church and couldn’t be happier.
Wow. That’s crazy, but very predictable
I do believe leaving the UMC might be the only true choice..when something turns it's back on biblical teaching, usually, in today's society, there is no return to truth.. find another church that preaches and adheres to the bible..
Presbyterian pastors can marry gay couples.
There is no prohibition against marrying gay couples.
From the Presbyterian church website --
"Pastors are responsible for deciding
whether they will or will not officiate
at a marriage service. Sessions are
responsible for deciding whether
the church’s property may be used
for a marriage service."
I left the Methodist Church in High School because unfortunately I had a spiritual experience and because it wasn’t a covered dish or about manners the Methodist Church couldn’t help me m
A church that no longer trust in the moral judgement of the Bible, is a church that no longer see the need for a perfect Savior.
Culture should not dictate the reading of scripture. The reading of scripture should dictate culture.
Ironic considering the modern view on homosexuality is based on a cultural insertion into the scriptures in the 1940s.
It is ruthless and unconscionable
to withdraw the opportunity to
live with a suitable "companion",
and replace it with offering
the gay person a choice
between celibacy and sin,
then give him a dog.
Genesis 2:18 -- It is not good
for the man to be alone.
I will make a companion
for him....
No, Bill. No.
then you'd have to go back to no remarriages following divorce also...
Bill Martin.... Well said and Well put ✝️
Thank you for an excellent analysis of this heartbreaking dilemma. I can only think of John Wesley's advice that we don't have to think alike, but we can all love alike. "Think and let think." Please God, may we remember this advice and stop this insanity!
Better to love alike than to think alike.
Yes, let's regard connecting in love
as more precious than agreeing on issues.
Let's build bonds, not walls of separation.
Let's heal this heartache.
It's very simple you either follow the word of God and the Bible or follow the world on the broad path to destruction so choose the narrow road to eternal life or the wide road to destruction
Christians made negro slaves
prisoners of the written word of God.
Christians made native savages
prisoners of the written word of God.
Christians made silenced women
prisoners of the written word of God.
Christians made spanked children
prisoners of the written word of God.
Christians are making gay people
having marital relations in a marriage
prisoners of the written word of God.
.
Christians are making the same mistake
the Pharisees made by making people
prisoners of the written word of God,
prisoners of the laws of God
written on stone tablets.
.
Love is in the heart,
soul and spirit,
not the body.
.
UMC Hymn #593
I will break their hearts of stone,
Give them hearts for love alone.
.
Get rid of the chains you
use to hold others down.
Stop pointing your finger at others
as if they had done something wrong.
Stop saying harmful things about them.
. . . Isaiah 58:9, NIRV
@Eve Lynn Elliott most were the Catholic church not all Christians and Muslims controlled much of the slave trade
@Eve Lynn Elliott communists killed multiple millions yet I'm sure you are ok with that
This is the best summary and update on "The Way Forward" that I have seen! I hope you will provide future updates!
There is a "future update" by Dr. Lovett Weems.
“Postponing General Conference May Be a Good Thing",
posted April 7, 2022.
IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE “MAN WITH WOMAN, WOMAN WITH MAN”!!! THAT IS FROM OUR GOD IN HEAVEN ABOVE AND THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE!!! ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT ACCEPTED BY GOD AND NEVER WILL BE!! SO IF YOU WANT TO MAKE IT TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE, YOU BETTER BE LIVING RIGHT WITH GOD!!! AND IF YOU’RE NOT, LORD HAVE MERCY ON YOU!!! 🙏🙏🙏
Hi, your smile is so cute, and it really look good on you, pls always wear that smile, I would love to be your friend, if you don't mind sending me friend request let's chat and be good friends, Thanks and God bless you🌹.
So, in 2016, the convictions of sinners became a higher authority in the church than the Bible? That means the UMC ceased to be a church in 2016. There is only two futures awaiting your church from here: Repentance, Reformation, a return to biblical authority, or disintegration. Once you deny the Bible's authority on moral matters, you deny Christ: If you can't trust God's Word to tell you the difference between right and wrong, why would you need a Savior? If personal conviction is the yard stick, then everybody is right by default and no one is a sinner.
Well said. Amen.
When Jesus was about to die,
he did not say, "stop mocking me,"
"stop talking bad about me,"
"stop believing I'm a bad person,"
"stop joining the crowd,"
"stop taking my clothes,"
"ouch, this bleeding hurts my body."
He was silent, gentle, gracious,
merciful and forgiving as he
agonized about one thing --
being forsaken, abandoned, alone.
Yet, it is believed that God wants
gay people to live celibate lives
and die virgins, live and die alone.
God himself does not want
to exist alone, without having
a covenant relationship with us.
From the beginning of the Bible
to end of the Bible, God wants
each of us to be loved, and
God does not want any of us
to be compelled to be alone.
Not indigenous Americans,
not black slaves, not silenced
women, not exterminated Jews,
and not people born gay.
Being alone is agonizing.
The psalmists said so.
Jesus said so. God said so.
"The Bible's authority" said so --
Genesis 2:18, "It is not good
for the man to be alone."
Easter is in four days,
April 17, as I write this.
Christ said being alone
was singularly the most
agonizing of his sufferings.
One does not "deny Christ"
by caring about the
United Methodist Church
putting gay people
in the position of being
alone.
@@evelynnelliott2002 Cherry picking as always, I see. Funny how you left out the part where Paul mentioned the blessings of being single, of being able to be of greater service to others.
Considering that you're talking to a 43 year old virgin, all your appeals to how "inhumane" that requirement is is not going to do you any good. I know the struggles of being single, I know the poisonous temptations of sexual sin. But for the sake of my Savior, I desire to be pure and not give into temptation. I don't always succeed, and I sometimes watch what I shouldn't, but I never stop fighting that desire. I know what a tough battle that is. _Never_ will I expect the church to stop preaching that it is sin, just because its hard for me.
The Bible is also very clear about sexual relationships: When God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone.", he did not create another man. Right from the beginning, he said a man shall leave his parents and cling to his _wife_ God also said Homosexual acts is an abomination in his sight, a perversion of the love that He has intended for us.
Jesus died on the cross to free us from slavery to sin. The agony He experienced far surpass the agony of not being able to live out your sexual desires. If that is what He did for you, how little it is you're prepared to sacrifice to show your love for Him? Look at what the apostles were willing to suffer to show their love for Christ, and you complain about first world problems? Jesus said that if you love Him, you will obey him, you say that's asking too much, you prefer your slavery to sin.
Yes, Homosexuals can experience love. Platonic love, relationship love. But not sexual love, Jesus himself told his apostles that is not destined for everyone. God provided very strict and narrow parameters within which we are to express our sexuality, and anything beyond that is sexual immorality.
If you think that sticking to biblical sexual norms is too much to ask, then you must ask yourself why you even want to remain part of the church in the first place. The Bible takes a very grim view of sexual immorality, and we are all called to fight our inner demons. If you're not willing to join that fight, then you are not part of the body of Christ. If you are in Christ, then you will hate your sins.
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? " - Romans 6:1-2
If a person refuses to repent of his sins & therefore not be 'born again' (accepting God' spirit) which IS the beginningg of understanding
Well explained. Thank you!
Unless the UMC follows Christ they are merely the YMCA
Unless a couple gets married,
they are MEERLY friends.
To become family,
a couple gets married.
.
It has been said for decades,
"Three Methodists, five opinions."
Healthy, expected, necessary
for positive change and progress.
That's Christian unity, harmony, peace.
.
A girlfriend is not family.
A boyfriend's family
are not in-laws.
To be married
is to be family.
.
Are gay people obliged
to be single and celibate,
to be without family?
Does Christ condemn
marital relations in marriage?
Is that what the Bible says?
No, that's not what it says.
.
Scholars have shown
that is not what it says.
Christians can believe
different scholars than you
believe, and be followers of Christ.
UMC allows for inclusiveness
and different perspectives,
and always has. May our
journey forward together be,
"Three Methodists, five opinions."
I think this a very good presentation, and sums up the mess that UMC is in. Personally, I cannot even comprehend churches being divided on homosexuality. Doesn't the Bible teach us to turn away from sin? That would mean you cannot condone homosexuality.
exactly you also need to be born again light and darkness should have no communion
"When a father loves his children--
and those children experience that love
and enjoy that love and live in that love,
then they will reflect that love
for one another." (David Platt)
Let gay people live in love
and reflect love to others.
Less "Angry". "Angry" less.
More love. Love more.
... or divorce or usury or wearing of two or more fabrics, etc and etc. How about honoring your mother and father when too many in this country put them in nursing homes and forget about them? Let's choose the ones we like and ignore the others?
7 deadly sins:
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride
@@paulcooper8335
Those seven sins are not delineated in Scripture. Those are Catholic inventions.
And, all other churches, if you don’t stand with God’s Truth, you may also fall into the obess..
Both sides are doing the best
they can to "stand with God's Truth".
Each side needs to recognize that truth,
to let the Gospel of Peace shine forth.
.
Let people choose their convictions.
God gives people the option to choose.
Let the one denomination allow choice,
without putting individuals in the position
of choosing between two denominations
reflecting two polarized convictions.
.
To be at peace only with those who
are like us and are not different from us
is not a reflection of the Peace of Christ.
If there cannot be "Peace on earth"
outside the church; let there be
respite from polarization inside
our United Methodist Churches.
.
Let the oneness of the Body of Christ
remain united through this time,
without allowing divisive battles
in the political arena divide the church,
so that people are put in the
position of choosing between
the Democrat Methodist Church
or the Republican Methodist Church,
with no option to sit in peace
beside those who may differ,
in the United Methodist Church.
I John 4: 7-13. We must keep our focus on the main thing. The question is not to go or stay but how we will love God and others in the going or coming.
God's Holy Spirit
joins us to God.
Peace and love
join us to each other.
.
If our words and actions
are completing God's love
for his people, we are
serving his purposes.
.
Indeed, that is how we keep
the main thing the main thing.
.
Part of the scripture is here~~
If we love one another,
God lives in us.
His love is made
complete in us.
Here’s how we know
that we are joined
to him and he to us.
He has given us
his Holy Spirit.
(1 John 4:12-13)
Those wanting changes within the church that goes against Bible teachings should just leave. There are enough alternatives around that would suit their views.
The Bible says to take care of widows and orphans--
that's people who are alone without a covenant relationship,
people who are deserted, forsaken, abandoned and alone
in the world with no one to care for them and to love them.
To say gay people have to live alone in the world,
with no covenant relationship, no family, nobody to love them,
creates the problem the Bible asks us to alleviate.
Alleviating the problem of leaving gay people unloved,
isolated and alone is not going against the Bible.
Everybody needs somebody, sometime.
At least people have stopped saying
all the gay people in the world
have to become straight people,
if they don't want be lonely.
Now we have to get past
looking at lifelong celibacy
as the Church's answer
to gay people requesting
marital relations in a marriage.
God is love. The opposite of
living in love is living unloved and alone.
@@evelynnelliott2002 According to scripture gay sex is a sin. Sinners are welcome in church but they shouldn't demand the church see their activity as acceptable behavior. Everyone in the church is being changed over time into what God wants us to be but that starts with first accepting what sin may need to be addressed. Facing this does not negate love. Paul didn't have a wife and he didn't see this as a problem.
@@bingo7799 Are you suggesting that
when a gay person becomes more mature in faith,
he will become the straight person God wants him to be?
If a person chooses to live alone like a monk,
as Paul did, that's a fine choice.
To put a gay person in the position
of having no option is another matter.
Paul recognized that everybody
could not and would not be like him.
The church is saying all gay people
have to be alone like Paul;
straight people can do as they choose.
A person can choose to become a slave to others.
Giving a person no choice about it is quite different.
Parents care for children, and God wants people
who belong to him to not leave orphans alone.
Marriage is for adults, and God wants people
who belong to him to not leave widows alone.
God does not want people bereft
of a covenant relationship to be left alone.
God wants marital relations exclusively in marriages,
and no adultery. No prostitution, serial monogamy,
pre-marital or extra-marital relations.
The people of Sodom and Gomorrah
were not requesting marital relations.
The Bible does not identify
gay marital relations in a marriage as a sin.
@@evelynnelliott2002 I don't know your situation and I don't cast judgements but I hold to scriptural truth. We can't bend scripture to our ways. God gives us power to follow His way if we chose to.
@@bingo7799 A gay person cannot choose
to become a straight person.
I did not "bend scripture" to mean
something it does not mean.
Scripture recognizes that
covenant relationships have great worth,
and people without them can
be in a poor and sorry state.
One doesn't have to be a
Catholic Pope well-versed in scripture
to recognize that "scriptural truth".
Let's just wait and see
what "God's way" looks like later,
when there is less division and more unity.
That's the point of the video.
Very well done, thank you
A good word from Dr. Weems. Oh, if we would only listen.
Should not even be a discussion it is as God says an abomination
Ken //// The writers of the bible said that. It does not seem to fit in with the nature of God.
@@k0smon every word is Gods word and he meant every word of it we can't change it to be what we want it
Dear@@k0smon ,
It would appear that you have some misconceptions concerning the nature of God. I suspect you are judging God by your own standards.
Would it be accurate to say that you have never studied Theology Proper in a course on Systematic Theology ?
In essence, God is holy and can not coexist with what is nonholy (sin). God created man with the attributes of volition and man chose to reject God's Standards of holiness. This results in man being separated from a relationship with God, his creator.
God is the one who sets the standards of what is sin and what is not and these moral standards proceed from his intrinsic nature. Unfortunately, man in his fallen state, has a distorted perspective of right and wrong and knowing the reality of sin, according to God's standards. We have the tendency to chose what we want to be right and wrong, according to our pleasures and humanistic cultural values, without much regard to what God may have to say.
"All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the LORD weighs the spirit." (Proverbs 15:2)
A residual sense of morality is within us because we were made in the image of God, but that sense of morality has been tainted by the fall and has distorted our perspective of sin. God did send chosen ones to reveal His will to humankind (special revelation, as well as giving us natural revelation concerning His being.
Another attribute of God is love. God loves the humans He created and made a way of restoring this broken relationship between man and God through his redeemer, Jesus the anointed one. God loved us so much that while we were still in sin, The anointed one sacrificially died for us. This illustrates the nature of God.
God is holy and he loves us sacrificially. He has not left us along and has provide a resolution to our major problem of a relationship with Him. This reveals something of his nature, but sadly, people reject Him, because they want to go their own way.
Probable Proverb of King Solomon (16:25) "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death."
Be Well,
DZ
@@Ken-ly7zh /// Only if you are convinced that the bible is the inerrant word of God. Bart Ehrman shows us it is not inerrant.
@@Silverheart1956 //// God is not a Christian and neither was the supposed Jesus. "He cannot coexist with..." Yes He can, He is all powerful and does according to his nature.
Outstanding
big difference between public sin and private sinners. as far as the church is concerncened. public display will destrou the church community. private will destroy the person. in my opinion. to flaunt sin is to avoid repentence in private
"...When a long train
of abuses and usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same Object
evinces a design to reduce them
under absolute Despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such Government,
and to provide new Guards
for their future security...."
From the Declaration of Independence.
.
If the Bible continues to be used
to "reduce them" to "sinners",
for their given constitution,
better to reject the Bible
than to be so inhumane.
Marital relations in a marriage
cannot be called sin. To say
God wants Christians to "reduce"
gay people, or the racially diverse,
or the neurologically diverse, or
the differently-abled, or woman,
or fat people, or anybody is a
heart-breaking misuse of the Bible.
My question to those that are trying to change doctrine. Does God change? Those that advocate modifications to God's word will find out soon enough what will happen while kneeling before our lord.
God opened the gates and let us in,
so he would not be alone, that was a change.
God gave us the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the spirit,
so we would not be alone, that was a change.
God changed the dietary laws and the everlasting
covenant of circumcision, that was a change.
At UMC, we celebrate Easter, not Passover,
that was a change. We recognize the first day
of the week as the Sabbath day, and not
the last day of the week, that was a change.
You tell me, "Does God change?"
Does God reveal something new?
Let us at UMC wait and see what truth
becomes revealed after this time of change
and confusion, when all can see what
becomes manifest as indisputable truth.
My heart breaks every Sunday when I attend church and grieve over so few christians...a dark day. The split is already there.....God only accepts his own...the rest are deluded and living in unawareness they are headed to hell....
People are not disagreeing
because one side is "deluded
and living in unawareness".
God "accepts" worshippers
and credible Biblical scholars
on both sides of this issue.
.
"Split" is inevitable
and peace out of reach
when people preach --
Those on one side of this issue
are headed to heaven.
Those on the other side of this issue
and are "headed to hell".
.
The preacher is preaching patience.
Give it time, and we will find holy peace.
In the meantime, God is patient with us.
Let us show Christian patience to each other.
.
Food for thought, however confusion still occupies my mind. I pray Gods holy will be done, not mine!
Great statement of the facts and how we as United Methodist got to this sad state.
I have plenty of friends that are members of the UMC, and they’re wonderful, Jesus-loving people. To abandon the context of the Scripture is a grave thing, and I know those who read between the lines will likely switch to churches that hold the Bible as the authority for all things governing a denomination, unwavering by the world.
The UMC was teaching theosophy from the pulpit in the 1990s.
Marital relations in marriage
is not departure from scripture.
Gay marital relations in gay marriage
is not departure from Scripture.
.
Using holy scripture
to force homosexual people
to be asexual people is wrong.
.
It's as wrong as
using holy scripture
to force black people
into slavery's forced labor.
It's as wrong as
using holy scripture
to silence all women
from speaking in church
or to reject them from voting.
.
To say Sodom and Gomorrah
is about gay marriage is to
"abandon the context of the Scripture."
God loves all his children!
We are all God’s creation, His children are those who are saved by His mercy and grace….It is our choice to love Him.
God's love is better
than health and wealth,
comfort and convenience.
Raises resilience and
speeds recovery.
.
Marital love is better
than health and wealth,
comfort and convenience.
Raises resilience and
speeds recovery.
.
Hope gay and straight
will contribute and benefit
from loving each other
and living in peace.
.
More love is better.
More love for God.
More love for others.
That's Biblical.
.
Let's let gay and straight
live in marital love.
All I hear is CURRENT CULTURAL DIFFERENCE. What about the word of GOD in the Bible speaking AGAINST homosexuality? Is the church discounting what GOD says, throughout the Bible?
What's more you? The name on the building? Or, is GOD'S word being taught?
Hi Sharon Whiteley ... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
The word of God says Homosexuality is sinful, no Christian Pastor has the right to say the Bible is inaccurate. This will surely destroy the Methodist Church as it will have no foundation.
The word of God pertaining to this issue must be consulted and be the basis of policies and decision. If the church departs from the clear meaning and teaching of God's word then the glorious presence of God will depart from the church. Sin, disobedience, idolatry, accomodation of the worldly wisdom are present in many of today’s churches. Christians must never take the glory of God in our midst for granted, lest we wake up one day and find that Ichabod has become a reality among us.
Biblical principles should not be ignored. As a church we have the responsibility to hold close Scriptural guidance.
Yes, "we have the responsibility
to hold close Scriptural guidance."
However, there is not only one
single reliable interpretation
of "Biblical principles".
.
What makes it hard is that
there are people who are not like us,
because the Bible is not without contradicitions.
UA-cam: Are the Gospels Historically Reliable?
The Problem of Contradictions, by Bart D. Ehrman
No, read Wesley.
@@rstevewarmorycom What did Wesley say?
@@evelynnelliott2002
Look it up. He did NOT say to believe the bible literally, look up Wesley's four pillars.
@@rstevewarmorycom
What are you saying about the Four Pillars?
.
Four pillars --
(1) Scripture, (2) Tradition, (3) Reason (4) Experience.
(1) Updated translations differ from King James Version.
(2) Traditions vary-- meeting in circles in people's homes
or make the preacher in the pulpit the pinnacle of a pyramid.
(3) Proof by signs and miracles, or scientifically proven.
(4) Experience by words that can be taught and learned
or experience of inexplicable presence and power of faith.
.
What are you saying about the Four Pillars?
People make this out to be all about homosexuality when at its core is an extremely large rift between scriptural orthodoxy and utter pandemonium you see in the UMC right now.
I left the UMC for Orthodox Christianity years ago.
3:40 what's that tell you about the state of the American Church?
“You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet. The Methodist Church has lost its saltiness. That is why it is falling apart.
Ichabod sadly to be written on the door of this denomination
Honestly, very simple... FOLLOW THE WORD OF GOD, God doesnt need any assistance to His Word, Its very straight forward, anything less is not His Word. If someone wants to go and do something new, then be free, but as for where this denomination is today, how is was established, How God founded it, leave it alone, if someone wants to follow their desires and flesh, there is plenty of places to go where someone will embrace your flawed theology
People can belong to God without believing what you say about what God requires of them to belong to Him or follow in His paths.
Well said, true words of wisdom
Hi, your smile is so cute, and it really look good on you, pls always wear that smile, I would love to be your friend, if you don't mind sending me friend request let's chat and be good friends, Thanks and God bless you🌹.
Hi Liz Thomen ... I just ready your wonderful comment,you sound great
Recommended UA-cam: Jimmy Asbell Sermon, Chapelwood UMC, Houston, TX, February 14, 2023. Nearly 20,000 views on Wed, Sept. 6, 2023.
For salvation, we just need to follow the way they did it in Acts? They were baptized in water for the removal of sins and filled with the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38!
Here's why! The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. If we are to follow him, we must do the same thing. Death= repentance, Burial = baptism, and resurrection = being filled and rising again from the dead and walking in the newness of life. That's what Acts 2:38 is.
We must obey the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ...
Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in Heaven. St John 3:3-5, EXCEPT a man, be born of WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD.
We can't come up with our own gospel. Galatians 1:8-9, But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Don't be cursed.
One way for all people. Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans. Our salvation has to match up with the scriptures and no scriptures on the subject can be taken away.
Eternity is TOOO long to be WRONG! st, John 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The gospels show what Christ has done on the cross for us. The book of Acts shows us the beginning of Christ's Church and how to enter the Church, obeying Acts 2:38. The letters were written to the Church to show us how to behave now that we are born again into the Church.
It's better to walk alone than to walk with a crowd going in the wrong direction.
Are we supposed to follow the teachings of the apostles? Acts 2:42, And they continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrines. Ephesians 2:20, We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.
Don't get Titus 3:5 mixed up with James 2:14-26, about WORKS. One is a WORK of your OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS OR GOOD DEEDS and the other is a WORK OF FAITH. Titus 1:16, They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. God bless you!
It's simple remain a Christian church or not....you either believe in scripture or you don't..
We will rest in peace better
at the end of life,
if we live in peace better
throughout life.
Can we just talk Jesus and focus on people developing thier relationships with Christ? That is all that matters
Yes, keep the main thing the main thing, without distraction. FWI Christians are giving the anti-gay agenda priority over addressing Africa's disease, poverty, illiteracy, and bringing peace to the war-torn continent. FWI Christians are advancing harsh penalties in anti-gay legislation for developing countries in Africa. FWI Christians are at the UN advancing anti-gay language and disabling its education to decrease unwanted pregnancies and diseases. (BBC) FWI Christians are claiming science says gay people are pedophiles and conversion therapy works. (Southern Poverty Law Center) Christians like myself are claiming the Bible speaks against sexually perverted acts, which does not included marital relations in a gay marriage. Each camp is appalled at the other. That goes beyond people of faith being dismissive of scientific reasoning, and people of science being dismissive of blind faith. A day will come when science and faith can walk together in peace and harmony. Let's wait patiently, and not let this distract us from keeping our focus on being better Christians.
As Jesus says.....”Come out of her!”
Churches said the Bible justified
the genocide of indigenous Americans.
Churches said the Bible justified
enslaving indigenous Africans.
Churches said the Bible justified
denying women a right to vote.
Churches now say the Bible justifies
denying gay people marital relations.
As Jesus says..."Come out of her!"
Both sides can claim,
"God is on my side."
Let peace abide.
"We, in our current opinions,
are not the center of the universe."
~ Lovett Weems, 12:40 in this video
Conservatives should join the free Methodist church.
join the Roman Catholic Church
In my state there are no free Methodist churches. The bishop decided that homosexuality and being transgender is okay and that all the Methodists churches must except and teach that. In fact, all protestants churches are following that line. They no longer believe that the bible is the word of God. Whatever society wants they bow down to. My family have been Methodists for generations. I personally resent being pushed out of my own church because it no longer follows the word God.
@@nancykarson3635 if your church can push u out, it was NEVER worth being in.
The Bible tells us the Church is TRUTH.
So if your church teaches gay marriage, it ain’t truth.
To me it is a matter of honoring the discipline. If the Methodist Church votes to allow homosexuals to be married and preach from the pulpit in the church and the Book of Discipline is altered to put this change into effect, I will accept it and stay within the UMC. For bishops to openly defy the Discipline prior to a formal vote and subsequent amendment is unacceptable to me. And far more egregious is the UMC's failure to discipline and even go so far as condone bishops who preach from the pulpit "Jesus was a bigot" and allow ministers to dress up in drag and preach to "The great queer one". That is unacceptable to me as a Christian.
The sanity of the middle way
is presented by Weems, while the
extremists get too much attention.
As you say "even go so far".
Let's turn our focus off the far out.
How far is too far can be a problem,
so let's just try to keep centered
on progress toward coming together.
.
Better if laws can become just
before resisting unjust laws,
but that is not always possible.
Martin Luther King was seeking
to change unjust laws by disobeying them,
to break down walls of "separate but equal".
Connecting together is preferable to separating,
and passively "waiting" for inclusion with diversity
had become resistance to progress forward.
.
There can be no law against being gay;
it is not something a person chooses.
Just laws will fit with that reality.
.
A United Methodist Church in Oak Ridge tn was breaking all of these things in the 1990s. They hired a gay youth pastor and pushed the gay themes.
No church discipline or discipleship....what did they think would happen...we can only keep trying to spread the gospel.....many in the church are the ones that refuse to change or turn from their sins and self worship
Lovett Weems
Love it, Weems.
Thank you for speaking out
against letting UMC marriage
cause divorce and separation,
and for speaking on behalf
of patience for peace and unity
within our UMC church.
Love it, Weems.
We must avoid making God in our image rather than God making us in His image. Do we follow God's law or man's law? Romans 1 is clear about all this. Humans are flawed, God is perfect.
Christians fail to treat gay people
with kindness and respect
(Romans 12:10, KJV & GNT)
when we identify them as
being born as flawed humans
to justify forcing them to
behave like straight people
or to have no marriage at all.
.
Christians failed to
treat black people
with kindness and respect
when they made them slaves.
Christians failed to
treat female people
with kindness and respect
when they silenced them
from speaking in church
and voting at the polls.
.
"Follow God's law"
or disturb the peace.
Treat black people with
kindness and respect.
Treat women with
kindness and respect.
Treat gay people with
kindness and respect.
.
God is love.
God is peace.
"God is perfect."
God, who "is perfect",
allows people to
have evil thoughts.
Romans 1:28
"So God let them continue
to have evil thoughts."
Romans 1:31 says that
God likes his people to
be kind.
.
God told the servants
to leave the weeds
to be cultivated with
the crop of wheat,
because the servants
could make mistakes.
Let the full-grown weeds
and the full-grown wheat
be separated at harvestime.
Matthew 13:30 ~~
"Let both grow together
until the harvest."
Follow God's law. Wait.
Servants can make errors
while plucking prematurely.
.
..............................
You tell us to read Romans 1.
.
Romans1:11
I want to make you strong
by giving you a gift
from the Holy Spirit. ...
1:16 It is God’s power to
save everyone who believes....
1:17 The good news shows God’s power
to make people right with himself.
God’s power to be made right with him
is given to the person who has faith.
It happens by faith from beginning to end.
....
1:28 They didn’t think it was
important to know God.
So God let them continue
to have evil thoughts.
They did things they shouldn’t do.
1:29 They hate others.
They say mean things
about other people.
1:30 They tell lies about them. ....
1:31 They do not understand. ....
They are not loving and kind.
I like the even-handedness of the video presentation, but from the comments below I think I will just avoid joining any church.
If only they had followed their "Book of Discipline".
UMC is not loving their flock by leading them astray and allowing them to live in sin and accepting it.
Uh oh, this guy just suggested that people use reason and discuss theology intelligently while respecting differing conclusions to logical discourse. That kind of thing isn't allowed anymore.
Can't speak reason
to people who won't
listen to reason.
.
Just read Romans 1. God makes His plan very clear.
He called 70% of the UMC cowards, saying they do not stand up for their own convictions about sin and perversion.
12:09min. 70% say they join with others, to stand up
together with those who are not like themselves,
to remain united as one body under one Lord,
right wing and left wing moving forward as one,
each respectfully valuing the contributions
of the various parts of the body of Christ,
until God reveals with manifest clarity
a proper interpretation of his word.
.
What will be revealed is not yet illuminated for us.
One is not a "coward" to stand up with me,
though they disagree with my conviction
that God's word supports believing this --
When people are born to be "homosexual",
they're not born to be single and celebate.
Marital relations in a marriage
is not "sin" or "perversion".
Get married beforehand.
Stay married thereafter.
Gay or straight--
date 2 yrs
mate 4 life.
.
"When we agree to disagree,
we honor the relationship
above trying to change
the person."
As Pastor Jimmy Towson said, in his State of the UMC update, "This is only the tip of the iceberg." To find out just how far the church has fallen watch his March 21, video.
The church has fallen,
away from love and peace
toward hate and division.
The Bible has been used
to defend the worst atrocities
of human history, including
the holocaust of the Jews,
the genocide of Native Americans,
the enslavement of Native Africans,
the subjugation and silencing of women,
which sought to deny their right to vote.
Now, Christians want to use the Bible
to require some people to live a life
of celibacy that denies them the
most treasured human experience --
intimacy with another human being.
The UMC is spinning out of control and will crash and burn unless corrections are made to get back on the flight path.
There's no such thing as same sex marriage as far as Christianity is concerned...you either believe in scripture or you don't....i understand why people like eastern Orthodoxy..they know the importance of scripture and they don't allow society to dictate what the " belief du jur" is....
The indispensable value
of marriage is not touching
each other with touchy-feely hands,
but helping each other with helpful hands,
a suitable "helpmate" for life's journey
and a companion to share intimacies.
We say, "family of God" but there are
many activities we do exclusively
with family, so that we all (gay/straight)
do well in a marriage covenant.
.
Most married people value their spouse
more than any material possession--
house, car, family heirloom, any treasure;
more than a good reputation or success.
Withholding marriage is to withhold
from a select minority a valued spouse.
Expecting all gay people to live and die
without a marriage is not reasonable.
.
Gay or straight, all do well to experience
love and intimacy with a lifelong spouse.
"It is not good for the man to be alone."
(Genesis 2:18) That's scriptural,
and stands to reason for those
who care to listen to reason.
.
To say the Bible asserts otherwise
is like looking in a telescope then
adamantly declaring the earth is flat,
because the Bible says so.
.
Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged
to believe that the same God
who has endowed us with
senses, reason, and intellect
has intended us to forego
their use."
@@garyelliott8768 again justify the unjustified....next it will be 8 year old marrage ...like Islam ..Leviticus is absolutely clear as is Saint Paul.....
@@horacerumpole7629
This is also "absolutely clear" --
according to Biblical scripture,
not allowing "society to dictate" --
if a gay marriage relationship
is rich in the fruits of spirit,
there is no law against it--
it bears good fruit:
love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness, goodness,
gentleness, faithfulness,
self- control, (Galatians 5:22-23).
.
The pharisees often offered
futile defense against Jesus
that the love of the law
held a seat above
the law of love.
"The Lord does not look
at the things people look at.
People look at the outside of a person.
But the Lord looks at what is in the heart.”
(1 Samuel 16:7)
.
Let the wheat and weeds
grow together until the harvest,
lest God's humble servants pluck
the wrong sprout in error, (Matthew 13:29).
.
Let us commune at one and the same table
with our differences of opinion.
"Who are you to judge
someone else’s servant?
Whether they are faithful or not
is their own master’s concern," (Romans 14:4).
The message of this video is
"Let us do all we can to live in peace," (Romans 14:29)
while we hold differences of opinion
about what is "absolutely clear".
.
Let's wait to see which opinion perishes,
and goes the way of slavery,
the slaughter of "savages",
and silencing the vote of women.
.
"What's next?" you ask.
People have been prejudiced
against one group after another
from the beginning until now.
Surely another group will
become the target of prejudice,
even among God's people.
I certainly hope not.
You use the phrase, "belief du jur."
I could say, "prejudice du jur."
.
An 8-yr-old cannot date publicly
a couple years before considering
a lifelong covenant relationship.
That is completely unreasonable
by any stretch of the imagination.
The way of pedophiles will perish.
Gay marriage does not lead
to pedophile marriage.
.
Differences of opinion
are not going to go away.
When God said we had
to live in peace with each other,
he was not thinking peace
will come when differences
of opinion cease to exist,
but when we can get along
with those who are not like us
and do not agree with our opinion.
.
Let's just wait to see what
becomes "absolutely clear."
Spoken like a true moderate.
Spoken like a true peacemaker.
That these proposals were even on the table within the UMC doesn’t bode well for its legitimacy as a viable body of Christ.
Ossified truth is dead and irrelevant.
"Viable" truth grows and matures.
"Single and celibate" negates the truth
that "It is not good for the man to be alone",
which God said while he had perfect
unblemished fellowship with Adam.
God repeated that it is not good for man
to be alone, when he instructed us
to care for widows and orphans,
while giving his people a law and a land.
Jesus said he would not leave us alone.
God repeated that it is not good for man
to be alone, when he gave us the gift of
the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
The law that needs to be venerated
is the one in the Ten Commandments,
about not committing adultery.
Marital relations is for married couples.
People need to have marriages
to keep marital relations in marriages.
God has repeatedly made things new,
breaking away from the ossified old,
for the purpose of alleviating isolation.
New wine needs new wineskins.
Let us put proposals on the table.
@@evelynnelliott2002
Was it good for Jesus, a man, to be alone (unmarried?)
@@keithwilson6060 Would any person welcome being told,
"You must be isolated and alone, single and celibate,
like it or not"? It was "good" for us that Jesus chose
to be alone. It is "good" for some people to be alone.
It is not "good" to say all people born gay must be alone.
It was not "good" to say all people born black can be enslaved.
Some people choose to make themselves slaves to others.
"You're a widow?! Oh, so sad. Come into my home
and let me serve you supper." Demanding that a person
forfeit his freedom, and compelling him to be your slave
to sweat out your work is not "good". Some people
have a euphoric experience of being single and celibate.
Fine and "good". Not everyone does. Demanding that gay
people forfeit having a marriage, and compelling them
to be single and celibate is not "good". Some people
experience being self-loathing and suicidal, because
of the Christian construct about their given identity.
Asking that gay people step into being isolated and alone
(like the widows and orphans God's law places in our care)
is not "good". Change shoes. Imagine saying to straight people,
"Cut off from your beloved spouse, to be single and celibate
for your salvation." Straight people are not always being
procreational. Straight people bond with each other
for a more cohesive marital union. The scriptures say
to gouge out your eye, if you cannot turn your eyes away,
or cut off your hand, if your hand is getting you into trouble.
(Matthew 5:29, 18:9; Mark 9:43) Imagine "good" Christians
composing a construct that compels mutilation for salvation.
Would that suffice what the Bible said? Would that be "good"?
Would you then ask, "Was it good for Jesus to be mutilated?"
@@evelynnelliott2002
You are responding solely from emotion, not from reason or biblical authority or wisdom. That is why women have no business being in leadership positions.
@@keithwilson6060
"Two Papal Bulls-
1452 pertaining to Africa and
1493 to the Americas-
are known as the Doctrines
of Christian Discovery and Domination.
These documents allowed
European settler colonialists
to profit through taking
ownership of land and
enslaving Black and
Indigenous people."
-Lelia DeAndrade
Portland, Maine
.
That was 1492,
when Columbus
sailed the ocean blue.
.
Now, the male monarch
of Christendom calls
for gay people to be
"single and celibate".
.
No land.
No freedom.
No marriage.
.
So say the male Popes.
No heart.
.
That is why UMC women
get a voice in the discussion.
.
Christianity should look the same in all countries. It makes no sense for the US UMC to leave the wider Church body. That's a political move, not a spiritual one. It is hypocritical to want the US to have different rules than the rest of the world, but not want to split inside the US.
How did you get to where you are? You let the Spirit of the Age take over your church, now the only thing left is "come out of Her my people".
Better to belong to God's church....attending any church means that many are not christians....it is still the narrow way with few who enter....makes it quite lonely as so many are so selfish and unloving
Leviticus 18:22 New Living Translation
22 “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
There was no gay marriage
for homosexuals to have
marital relations in marriage,
when Lev. 18:22 was made holy scripture.
Gay marital relations in gay marriage
is not a detestable sin.
.
If the Bible cannot be living scripture
it will become a dead document
and the churches vacant tombs.
.
Date 2 yrs.
Mate 4 life
False prophets were prophesied by Jesus. We must be very alert and KNOW God's Word, repent, & live life He created & in the purpose He had for mankind in His natural order. ALL through the Bible the natural family was everything to Him, the 'SON' of God.
The One Church Plan supported by two thirds of the U.S. delegates supports "diverse Theological and Scriptural Understandings, removes negative and restrictive language about homosexuality and states that "no annual conference, Bishop, congregation or Pastor must act contrary to their convictions". Is basically gives license to reject the governance of the Book of Discipline in favor of self governance.
Sounds like a good comprise
which recognizes that
the right wing and left wing
can come together in unity,
so the one body of Christ
can straighten up and fly right,
in line with the Prince of Peace.
So under the "One Church Plan", when an annual conference appoints a minister to a local congregation, that local congregation would be able to reject the appointment? No, I didn't think so.
How is it that you cite the value of tradition in one breath and, in the very next, demand unity? (12:45)
I have to wonder if you're paying attention to what's going on in our denomination and if you understand the "change above all else" nature of progressivism.
Who are we to run the church for only God runs the church.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-13
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You got to your current dilemma because you, the UMC as a whole, apostasized from Christianity and decided you could make it up as you go along and the the Bible was no more from God than your own corrupt thoughts.
How many people who commit sins that are an abomination to God, get married every day. How do churches differentiate them. Are there any preachers who even mention the others sins that are an abomination to God.
Homosexual marital relations
in a homosexual marriage covenant
is not an abomination to God,
sexually perverted or sinful.
Calling for God's blessing
on gay people to enter into
a marriage covenant is not
condoning unrepentant sinful
behavior that begs for grace,
mercy, forgiveness. Marriage
is for everybody, gay or straight.
I believe that is what a proper
translation of the Bible reveals
as God's will for his people.
NO SCRIPTURE IN THE UMC DOCTRINE: Leviticus 18:22 ....KJV
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
This is what happens when people that are suppose to be Christians, don’t really know Jesus or his word.
There are credible scholars
who have studied the bible,
and have followed Jesus a long distance
and are every bit as Christian as those
who stand in opposition to them.
.
People on both sides
"really know Jesus".
People on both sides
really know "his word".
.
Division is entrenched and
patience for peace thins
when people refuse
to believe that.
All I can say is God doesn’t change,his word doesn’t change & culture should never be allowed to change the church.
@@jimrylander9143 A church that turns
a blind eye and deaf ear to culture
would become as extinct as a dinosaur.
Churches thrive with dynamic growth
by changing with current times,
the people who occupy them,
and the upcoming generations.
.
What remains and what changes
is debatable, and has been debated
in the past. That is the point
of the video. To divide the church
during times of debate is not prudent.
.
History shows that debated topics
of the past have become irrelevant.
Be patient about moving forward together,
because today's debate will become
irrelevant farther down the road.
.
Let us live with each other in peace,
and lead others to live in peace.
@@garyelliott8768 if you bring sin into the camp as a norm for the church it’s not culture. Culture of any type shouldn’t be permitted to bring belief systems like homosexuality into the church. If you don’t believe the bible so be it. Don’t call yourself Christian
@@jimrylander9143 Agreed.
Culture has no place in defining sin.
Credible theologians have a place
in defining what is and is not sin.
Theologians are not in agreement.
For example, Sodom and Gamorrah
says nothing about gay people
having marital relations in a marriage.
.
Acknowledging that there could
be more clarity in the future
is not letting culture make
decisions for the church
regarding sin. Again,
let there be peace until
the dispute is settled.
AMEN brother on your closing statement! We are nothing without Jesus. Our particular church seems to be way too focused on differences and 'policy/regulations'....which seems to me just what the Pharisees were doing back in Jesus' time, rather than love and be a beacon of hope to the lost. Thank you for putting this all togetheir. It helps to clarify where we are.
Yes, indeed, we do well to love
those on both sides of this issue
and not let conflict foster enmity.
We do well to be grateful for the
small steps in the right direction
which may be less than satisfying.
We do well to focus less on
differences and regulations,
more on loving and being a
"beacon of hope to the lost".
We do well to usher in a world
where distinctions and differences
do not serve to disturb the peace.
"It helps to clarify where we are"
as peacemakers journey toward
peace in our church,
peace in our world.
What’s Love Got To Do With It?
In Revelation 3:15 Jesus says to the last of the 7 Churches: “I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! But because you are lukewarm and neither hot or cold. I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Why would a Christian Hierarchy fail to heed such a dire warning and compromise what the Bible has to say about the sexually immoral?
Probably because nearly 50% of their members agree with the LGBTQ+ agenda? And that is likely because they haven’t been able to honor God’s design for sex themselves. Considering how Jesus felt about hypocrisy, such a attitude is understandable. But there’s a difference between this sin today and what it was in previous generations.
And the difference is monumental. People have become proud of it. Celebrating it with it’s own flag and putting it on parade for an entire month. Pride itself is a sin but being proud of immorality is surely the essence of depravity. There were ample warning’s about the circumstances likely to follow the legalization of gay marriage. But, as usual, prophets are largely ignored. Consequences most disturbing have come into play: Transgenders in school rooms, corrupting childhood innocence. This perversion comes straight out of the pit of Hell and it isn’t lukewarm, it is cold blooded evil.
Back in the 50’s and 60’s, when sex was coined as “making love”, my generation bought it and sought it. The chant of “make love…not war” made great sense. Sex was undeniably preferable to fighting for a cause we didn’t understand. It was an easy sell for Satan; a little truth to deceive us in a deeper circumstance. He’s using the same ploy now with “Who are you, to say whom someone should love?”
What’s love got to do with it? In today’s world, precious little. Yet, today’s modern generation equates sex with love. How naïveté - the act has digressed into an activity of vanity. It’s more of a what’s in it for me conquest. We are inundated with lust. Lust for pleasure, lust for power, lust for money or whatever serves our vain natures. A wise man once said: “Lust is the counterfeit of love.”
Dismal is the church that preaches appeasement over repentance on this issue. Such a doctrine has nothing in common with the Gospel and it makes a sham of the cross. Is your church lukewarm on this matter of faith…are you?
Do not dread the price of obedience to Jesus Christ - His dividend’s extend beyond eternity.
Seems you are implying that
where there is homosexual marriage
there is no love.
Being a former Episcopalian this is odd to watch as I somewhat assumed they were more progressive than us. Now a member of a Southern Baptist Convention affiliated church I know we are much more conservative yet more decentralized.
UMC sounds more like our current government. These people have no clue about the bible. So carnal
Jesus gave mankind a warning do not be deceived for there shall be many that will come in thy name
Deceived to believe
God opposes gay people
having marital relations in marriage,
and misleading people to view
marital relations in marriage
as perverted.
It’s obvious what is not ultimate authority for your church!
What is Next? Those who defy God's word will waste away.
I think it is odd how denominations all founded by men and not by Christ get all bent out of shape about this question and what Jesus says about divorce means nothing to them and if you get divorced, yeah well who cares. To listen to the plight of someone who struggles with homosexuality and believe it was a choice or just live alone and not share a life, of course that decision being made by heterosexual people, does not mean anything. The Scriptures condemn many things: "oh well, but this is what we feel uncomfortable with."
Meanwhile the Catholic Church is 100% against divorce
wow. this comment section is truly toxic.
Being black is not sinful but being homosexual is!
Gay or straight, sexually perverted
behavior is sinful and harmful.
Gay or straight, marital relations
apart from marriage is sinful.
Gay or straight, marital relations
in a marriage is not sinful.
Reputable scholars have shown
that belief is supported by scripture.
"A text out of context is
a pretext for a proof-text."
.
Homosexuals are not asexual
beings designed to be single
and celebate from cradle to grave.
Gay or straight, all people
need to get married to have
marital relations in a marriage.
Gay or straight,
Date 2 yrs.
Mate 4 life
They let the scum bags in now they have to leave
This man describes wanting not to kick any sinful members out....that’s not what the Bible teaches.
1 Corinthians 5:1-13 ESV / 24 helpful votes
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ...
Two Roosters do not lay an egg. Farmers Almanac 1:24.
Passing on DNA is one path to the survival of a species.
Another path for the survival of the species
is to focus less on bringing up a new generation,
more on strengthening bonds in the current generation.
[See the TED Talk "Homosexuality: It's About Survival".]
Bringing more peace than division
assists the survival of the species.
Robbing banks is a sin but most bank robbers dont say everybody that doesnt rob banks is a racist.. Stop shoving your sin down everybody elses throat.
Dear @UCZy2vK0ZAwoIVgWxOD4kkYQ,
Be Well,
DZ
Luke 12:57.... Jesus said “why dont you judge for yourselves what is right!”
"Every man did what was right in his own eyes." That is you now. How will that work out for you? What is said about the natural state of the human heart?
@@toomanymarys7355
White Supremacists have been using the Bible to advance their various causes in this country since the Declaration of Independence. Keep the slaves obeying their masters. Keep the women silent on election day. Keep gay people single and celibate from cradle to grave. Today's issue is right on track with previous issues that divided Christians. Let's just walk further down the road, to wait and see what looks right in the eyes of United Methodists. -- Eve Lynn
Well I will never understand is why “the church“ always picks out one or two of their “Pet sins” they “stand firm on“ yet their churches are full of people who are sleeping with people they’re not married to, teenagers in premarital sex, adulterers, people who are greedy, people who are liars, people who are gossip mongers and they file into the church and sings hymns right next to all them without ever blinking… Yet this one issue suddenly they’re clutching their pearls and passing out at how horrible it is… It’s hypocrisy… And to watch the church this last four years prop up and support a man who is a vulgar adulteress greedy man as president without even blinking and yet they’ll split a denomination over letting a gay person worship with them and serve… ridiculous!! Be consistent or shut up!
There will be no “ pearl clutching “ when standing before a holy God at judgement.
The Catholic Church doesn’t match your description
@@PInk77W1 I’m speaking of evangelical churches in general… I am not Catholic so I don’t really know what they do…
@@rickj9615
The Roman Catholic Church
The Church is one
The Church is holy
The Church is apostolic
The Church is dynastic
The Church is Hierarchical
The Church is messy
The Church is Mystery
The Church is teacher
The Church is Mother
The Church is universal
The Church is sacramental
The Church is authoritative
The Church is visible
The Church is unchangeable
The Church is missionary
The Church is the Kingdom of God
The Church is TRUTH
The Church is the bride of Christ.
The Church is the mystical body of Christ
The Church is in the world not of the world.
@@PInk77W1 ok.......
Helpful to point out
that we are sometimes
put in the position
of letting extremists
give identity to those who
are more willing to live together
with those whom they disagree,
through a time of cultivation
and all the stages with progress
toward fruition of what will be
revealed, "in due season".
Nobody argues about slavery.
Let's wait until we "see clearly".
.
........................................
Here's what the speaker said ~
.
[There is a small portion] of people
who can hardly bear to be in a church
where people disagree with them,
at this moment, about homsexuality.
.
[The larger portion] disagree, but
none of them wants to push anyone
out of the church, and certainly
don't want their church dissolved.
.
The largest group is either
traditionalists for one [united] church
or progressives for one church....
We desperately need a way
to honor conscience
and still live together.
.
Until that day, and I am confident
it will come, when God's wisdom
for the future is more clearly revealed,
if some cannot abide this diversity,
departure is an honorable decision.
But bringing chaos to thousands of churches
who do not share such certainty and impatience
is not. ....In Christ we trust that, in due season,
we shall see more fully what is now seen
only dimly.
.
Dear @@UCLW_cWzTBLDckYGmioto2_Q
Yes
"[There is a small portion] of people who can hardly bear to be in a church
where people disagree with them, at this moment, about homosexuality.
That would be Jesus Christ. He is the extremist. It is his way or go it on your own.
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me. "
(The Words of Jesus as recored in John 14:6)
Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, is the standard setter: not our culture, our personal feelings of right or wrong, our
"There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death." (Proverbs. 16:25)
Be Well,
DZ
@@Silverheart1956 "But the Bible says....."
Christians quoted the Bible's assertion
that the earth has four corners,
when others believed the earth was round.
Christians quoted the Bible's assertion
that dinosaurs were not created,
when others believed in fossils.
Christians quoted the Bible's assertion
that slaves must obey their masters,
when others believed slaves should be freed.
Christians quoted the Bible's assertion
that a woman must remain silent,
when others believed women should vote
and be able to read scripture in church.
Some Christians today believe that
standing with Jesus gives them license
to say, "My way, or the highway to hell,"
or to say, "Stand with us, or stay home,"
or "It is his way, or go it on your own."
.
The difference between Christians today
and Christians in controversy in the past
is that Christians today prefer to go home
and not congregate with people who want
to proclaim from the pulpit their beliefs that
the earth is flat, dinosaurs never existed,
blacks should be kept down, women
should remain silent, and a person
born gay must live a celebate life
and die a virgin, because that is
God's plan for their lives.
Let them find a place for themselves
among the widows and orphans.
Better to get along and
remain united until later,
when we get beyond this division.
Dear@@evelynnelliott2002 ,
There are many who profess to be "Christians" that say many absurd things. You have to understand that many "Christians" are basically illiterate when it comes to Christian Theology and Philosophy, and in general, the Christian Worldview. So I can agree with you on many of the assertions you make.
One very basic axiom in the scholarly world, is that we shouldn't take examples from the fringe, and use these aberrations as the standard for the whole. There is a logical fallacy for this kind of thinking. It is called a "Strawman Argument".
For example, I know many people who I consider genuine Christians, however I personally don't know, even one Christian, who claims the "the earth is flat". For you to generalize that belief to the whole is an inaccurate stereotype, and if you are trying to use that as evidence to show Christian thought is somehow questionable, is an example of using the logical fallacy of the "Strawman Argument". That would be an example of faulty thinking. We can discuss any of the issues you mentioned, on a case by case conversation, if you like,
"Some Christians today believe that
standing with Jesus gives them license to say, "My way, or the highway to hell,"" Actually according to the Christian Worldview, this attitude is not acceptable. There is no "my way", in genuine Christianity.
However, it is acceptable to say there is a "God's way", in Christianity. Christians seek God's will for mankind and for their own lives. This is one of the basic premises of Christian thought and behavior. God knows mankind much better that we know ourselves. He gets to set the standards, not us.
Perhaps you have confused the "my way" with "God's way".
One of the basic anthropological teachings of Christianity is that, Man (mankind, all of us) are created in the image of God. It seems today that some people want to create God in our image. They don't like the standards God has asserted, and they think He is wrong. They seem to believe human omniscience is more reliable, so they either out right reject God's standards, or they "alter" God's standards, to make the standards conform to their way of thinking (in essence, creating their own God, in the likeness of human understanding).
I have heard some people say, "God just doesn't understand". Such a statement exhibits a very significant misunderstanding concerning the Christian worldview and God.
Concerning Homosexuality,
You asserted "a person
born gay" as if we have determined the actual cause of homosexuality. There are three major theories. 1. Genetic determinism - the genes (genotype) of the homosexual has determined that he or she is biologically determined to have same sex attractions. 2, Environmental Factors - the way we are brought up and other environmental factors condition and affect same sex attraction. 3. Epigenetics - environmental factors affect the genetic expression that switch parts of the genome on & off at strategic times during the life cycle.
Many scientists are leaning towards Epigenetics, however, I think the phenomenon of homosexuality is more diverse than many perceive and that different causes are responsible for different type of homosexuality. There is a lot of evidence for environmental factors and epigenetics. Not as much for genetic hard wiring.
How does the science affect Christian thought ? All the theories of the cuase of homosexuality are very compatible with Christian Theology and none of the theories excuse homosexual behavior.
"gay must live a celebate life
and die a virgin". This is not quite true. However, that is an option.. I will let you think on this and see if you can think of why this assertion is not necessarily true. Please let me know of what you come up with.
Be Well,
DZ
@@Silverheart1956 . Thank you for speaking
plainly, DZ, about the views of many
in our United Methodist Church.
.
On Monday, May 17, 2021
a "flat-earther" was arrested for
disrupting a City Council meeting
in Watertown, NY. The article posted
in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise
on Wednesday, May 19, 2021, also
stated that his views on homosexuality
were based on his religious beliefs.
.
Why are there, today, no Methodists
who believe that the Earth is flat
preaching their beliefs from our
United Methodist Church pulpits?
.
Why are there, today, no Methodists
who don't believe in dinosaurs
preaching their beliefs from our
United Methodist Church pulpits?
.
Why are there, today, no Methodists
who believe in owning slaves
preaching their beliefs from our
United Methodist Church pulpits?
.
Why are there, today, no Methodists
who object to female ministers
preaching their beliefs from our
United Methodist Church pulpits?
.
Why? Because we came
to a place of agreement.
We have come to agreement
before, we can do it again.
.
To say straight people can
live in holy matrimony after
a church wedding, and gay
people must be united by
the state government is
too much like saying that
white people can drink from
a marble basin with gold spout
while black people drink from
a cob-job spigot on a pipe.
.
Let it be like that for now,
so we can remain united
until there is consensus,
as there is now consensus
on views that, at one time,
caused hot-headed people
to have heated debates
about issues that have
since died and become cold.
.
The United Methodist Church
cannot stand behind gay marriage,
because there is not the support
for it, now. Is it necessary to have
support for it, now, without delay,
in a separated church?
.
It is necessary for those
who believe in Jesus and
those who do not believe in
Jesus to worship in separate
churches, synagogues, temples.
.
It is not necessary for those
who believe in dinosaurs and
those who do not believe in
dinosaurs to worship separately.
.
The question on the table is this:
Is it necessary for United Methodists
to worship separately? Let's chill,
and let the issue simmer awhile,
as one United Methodist Church.
.
Jesus' death-bed wish
was that his followers would
be "one". (John 17:21)
Let us remain one
United Methodist Church,
until a new day dawns.
.
Henri J.M. Nouwen ~
"A waiting person
is a patient person.
The word patience
means the willingness to
stay where we are and live
the situation out to the full
in the belief that
something hidden there
will manifest itself to us."
Dear@@evelynnelliott2002,
The various examples you give flat earth, dinosaurs, slavery, etc. are non sequiturs to the issue of "agreement", because of the diversity of the issues. Agreement can be legitimate or illegitimate. We can discuss each of those issues independently, as each should be done, if you would like.
Your point appears to be "we came
to a place of agreement." That is the problem !
Particularly the word "we". Consider the fact that "agreement", does not necessarily lead to truth. Agreement and unity, have a very diluted meaning and significance, if, it is not based on the foundation of truth.
To illustrate this principle, consider that there was much agreement and unity in the Nazi Party, in 1940.
But ,Truth was sacrificed. What value is agreement and unity, if it is unity in error ?
The problem with the agreement in the UMC is that "the people" are making the agreement, as if the church was a democracy. Emphatically not !
The true church of God is composed of believers who desire to submit to the benevolent standards and will, of a sovereign being, Yahweh, the creator, of all that is; that is who we as Christians worship and submit to. It is his standards that we desire to conform our lives to, at the exclusion of our own desires. The major point of agreement, is that the people of God are, in "agreement", with God. That is of first concern.
Look at these two verses carefully, and consider the basic concepts they are teaching. They present some of the basic, foundational concepts of genuine Christianity.
"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as
a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,
that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable
and perfect. (Rom. 12:1-2)
Consider that we are to be "living sacrifices", "holy" (set apart from sin), "acceptable to God" (acceptable by His standards), This is what genuine "spiritual worship" is; a sacrificed, holy life, acceptable to God.
Paul warns us to avoid being "conformed to this world" (the world is trying to minimize God's standards of sin and holy living). We are to "be transform". Into what ? Into a godly follower of Jesus, God's anointed, in agreement with the standards mentioned in vs. 1.
How are we transformed ? By the "renewing of your mind". This is partly an educational process where we come to know God more deeply. Knowing God, through what He has said, is very important.
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction,
and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for
every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
May God use Scripture to, teach, reproof, correct and train us. For what ? Righteousness. (obviously a righteousness in God's will). This is done so we may be complete and equipped for His work.
God has expressed His standard concerning the practice of homosexuality. The practice of homosexuality is not to be accepted by His church, under His standards. Our sentiments, opinions, feelings, emotions, clever human reasonings, etc., are not authoritative over, God's standards. Remember, Genuine Christians desire to conform their lives, attitudes, thoughts, behaviors, words etc. to God's Standards.
We welcome homosexuals to attend our church and will be sensitive to their human dignity and worth as being created in the image of God, as all humans are. They should be cared for and loved. However, we should lovingly explain that God does not accept their behavior or attitude, of acceptance of this particular sin or any sins.
(some people don't like the word "sin". They say it is an old fashion concept. That is probably because they have misunderstandings concerning the concept and have never taken a course in Hamartiology, Most Christians are theologically illiterate)
Perhaps in your mind this would seem harsh, but it would be the same with most any other people, and the sin they approve of. We love the sinner but disapprove of the sin following the example of God. (ROM. 5:8)
The only exceptions would be sins that cause direct harm or endangerment to another.
(I don't see homosexuality as a sin that directly endangers life, but may indirectly).
If your son believed there was nothing wrong with being drunk while driving, you would probably express your disagreement with this behavior, but you would still love and care for him. If you knew he was going to get drunk and drive that night, I hope you would stop it because it would directly endanger someone's life. Reporting him and stopping his behavior, would also be an act of love towards him.
Since anyone advocating this homosexuality would be advocating sin, he or she would not be allowed as a member of God's Church. (yes, this would include nonhomosexuals). Most churches do not practice the doctrine of exclusion of sin or disfellowshipping because of sin. I suspect one reason is because many churches want as large of a church roll as they can get, so they overlook the significance of sin and sacrifice truth for the sake of unity (and big numbers which may also means big income). These are churches that have "conformed to this world".
I noticed in your post, you didn't speak much about God, His standards, His will, agreeing with Him, and about His Church. I can't help but to wonder why.
I think if the UMC continues to conform to the social and moral norms of our society and culture, the UMC will dilute its authentic spiritual relationship with the true God and become a mere social club assembly (church) of religious people. The genuine Christians will recognize this fall, and leave the UMC.
Be Well,
DZ
What unity ?
Unity, love, peace --
that's keeping the
main thing the main thing.
Let's not get thrown off course
by distraction from staying
on track toward unity.
Religion is not the way. Run don't walk from these 501C3 rackets. TRUST JESUS.
What does scripture call the pillar and ground of truth?
(1) Jesus is GOD (2) He DIED for our sins (3) He was raised BODILY (4) He will return for those who are His
As a Lutheran, I am sad to hear of your scysim. You will be left with a overly progressive church that stands for little and a conservative church that is excessively isolated and shuns new members who do not align perfectly with chruch doctrine. It would be best to have 1 church that can work through these issues.
I'm glad I don't belong to a denomination.If you want truth check out shepherds chapel.chapter by chapter verse by verse reading from King James and using Strong's concordance bible dictionary in Greek and Hebrew.
we only stick in the bible and we will never get lost...
RR//// The bible -- the reason there are thousands of denominations.
The Bible thwarted the liberation of slaves.
The Bible thwarted the vote for women.
The Bible thwarted land acknowledgement
for indigenous people around the world.
The Bible has gotten us "lost" in the past,
and this video reminds us of that.
Let's be more patient today
than we were then.
Most of the jerks in society seem to sit in the front pews of all churches, I avoid them and worship on my back porch. That way I am the only jerk that is available.
Worshipping together
can be done in circles,
sitting on a back porch,
with a zoom meeting,
around a fire pit,
at a coffee shop,
in small groups.
No pulpit.
No pews.
You must forsake allowing and condoning sinful acts. Le. 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Read all of Leviticus chapter 18). What we need to know about ourselves from God's Word and our only hope of being justified before God: [WHY WE HAVE NO HOPE IN OURSELVES: Mk. 7:20-23 And he (Jesus) said, That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things (sins) come from within, and defile the man.] [WHY WE NEED A SAVIOR: Rom. 3:10-28 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things so ever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his (God's) sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Joh. 14:6 For God so loved the world (us), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:]
The broad road church