Hey mate, You have made a bit of mistake in this video. A normal hip angle of torsion is about 15 degrees of anteversion. This would correlate to the greater trochanter being most lateral at about 15 deg of internal rotation, not 15 degrees of ER. Either your palpation is off or she has a significantly retroverted angle of torsion in her femur.
As what i think is theories of lever as in this test he had use short lever roration when that occurs your leg would go towards patients body so that you feel the external rotation.
I agree 100% Internal rotation of 10-15 degrees (torsion) is considered normal , or "neutral" if you will. If the angle measures more than 10-15 you are considered to have an femoral anteversion. An angle measuring less than 10-15 degrees (some sources say less the 8 degrees) is considered retroverted. The measure will almost always represent a hip internal rotation measurement, unless your this girl and have an absurdly large retroversion.
Exactly. I think his palpation is way off. Considering what a good deal of internal rotation she has at starting position, I don't believe he measured that right. Or she is hypermobile or has atypical bone shape/structure.
Oli Mercer... He has it correct. The foot might be moving inwards but you have to think about what is happening at the hip. While the foot might be moving in... the hip is externally rotating
away from the midline of your body. The midline is where your body separates exactly in the left and right halves of your body. The most lateral then is further away from the midline as possible
Hm trying to think of a way to put it. Say you have a clock and the minute hand on the 12. Lets say the range of motion for the hand can go 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after the 12, so it can reach the 10 and the 2 on the clock. That would display a normal person. But if the minute hand starts out on the 1 instead of the 12 (femoral retroversion), that minute hand cannot reach all the way back to the 10, but only to the 11. That is the limitation of internal rotation. Then the hand can reach past the 2 all the way to the 3. That is the excessive external rotation. Hopefully this was helpful, I'm not doctor but I have it so I got a good understanding of how it works and how to make advantages out of it. Cheers mate!
@NatetheItalianStallion That was brilliant! Was diagnosed with retroversion myself just yesterday and as such have been trying to get a UA-cam crash course in anatomical abnormalities of the hips. This is the best and easiest to understand explanation I've yet seen. Cheers!
Rae Carson One issue with my explanation I see now is that the retroversion doesn't necessarily give you more range of motion in the opposite direction of the abnormality. The muscles, tendons, and ligaments in there area limit the advantage greatly, so there is still a certain amount of movement unable to be accounted for.
this video provides incorrect info. that patient, according to his findings, is significantly retroverted....by 25 degrees or more...normal palpation of the GT in it most prominent position would be 10-15 degrees internal rotation....
All the ways from Sydney Australia thanks mate... very helpful.. Just 1 thing anteversion causes ext rot of the hip while femoral torsion causes int rot of the hip. Why do we use torsion and anteverts synonumously when they do the opposite... I see it in literature so much but my lecturer says its wrong... Can you plz elaborate... even John Hopkins said anteversion of femur causes intoe-ing but were taught otherwise because femoral torsion causes intoe-ing.. so confusing, so if you could help me out, id love it. thanks
I want to help you about this. actually there are some confusion about to define anteversion and retroversion. some people say it is just the position of femoral head in acetabulum regardless of the torsion of femoral shaft(condyle),other people explain that it is the combination of angle difference between the posion of femoral head in acetabulum and femoral torsion. so it can cause some confusion however just think separately, so I will explain about what is femoral torsion, femoral torsion refer to the twist of shaft of femur,not the position of femoral head in acetabulum. so normally it is internally 30 degree rotated relative to femoral head angle at birth. then the degree becomes reduced when child becomes older to 8-12 degree relative to femoral head. so adult normal degree of femoral tosion is 8 to 12 degree internally rotated relative to femoral head. so we called this the derotation which is the process of reducing the internal rotation angle of femoral torsion at birth. in here, some problems can happen by too much derotation or too little derotation, in case of too much derotation, people have externally rotated knee position or out toeing, and in case of too little derotation, people have internally rotated knee position or in toeing. one thing more, anteversion cause more internal rotation of the hip. also, when you mention femoral torsion, if that means too little de rotation, it can make sense. it can cause internal rotation of knee and intoeing.
A picture is worth a thousand words so here is a link explaining Ante/Retro Version & Torsion. It's all about angles. Anteversion & Retrotorsion cause toes out and Retroversion & Antetorsion cause toes in. I realize your post is from a year ago and you likely have this answered already, but in any case, here you go. www.clinicalgaitanalysis.com/faq/torsion.html
Very well explained and demonstrated! Thanks man. -PTA Student
can you improve your anteversion? or is it just something you deal with?
Hey mate,
You have made a bit of mistake in this video. A normal hip angle of torsion is about 15 degrees of anteversion. This would correlate to the greater trochanter being most lateral at about 15 deg of internal rotation, not 15 degrees of ER. Either your palpation is off or she has a significantly retroverted angle of torsion in her femur.
As what i think is theories of lever as in this test he had use short lever roration when that occurs your leg would go towards patients body so that you feel the external rotation.
I agree 100% Internal rotation of 10-15 degrees (torsion) is considered normal
, or "neutral" if you will. If the angle measures more than 10-15 you are considered to have an femoral anteversion. An angle measuring less than 10-15 degrees (some sources say less the 8 degrees) is considered retroverted. The measure will almost always represent a hip internal rotation measurement, unless your this girl and have an absurdly large retroversion.
Exactly. I think his palpation is way off. Considering what a good deal of internal rotation she has at starting position, I don't believe he measured that right. Or she is hypermobile or has atypical bone shape/structure.
Oli Mercer... He has it correct. The foot might be moving inwards but you have to think about what is happening at the hip. While the foot might be moving in... the hip is externally rotating
well, now I'm confused and I can't find my lab notes for this test. So, retroversion is
Could someone explain to me what it means for it to be at its "most lateral aspect"?
Lateral means more to the outer body, medial to the inner body.
away from the midline of your body. The midline is where your body separates exactly in the left and right halves of your body. The most lateral then is further away from the midline as possible
Could someone please explain why retroverted patients has more external than internal rotation ?
Hm trying to think of a way to put it. Say you have a clock and the minute hand on the 12. Lets say the range of motion for the hand can go 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after the 12, so it can reach the 10 and the 2 on the clock. That would display a normal person. But if the minute hand starts out on the 1 instead of the 12 (femoral retroversion), that minute hand cannot reach all the way back to the 10, but only to the 11. That is the limitation of internal rotation. Then the hand can reach past the 2 all the way to the 3. That is the excessive external rotation. Hopefully this was helpful, I'm not doctor but I have it so I got a good understanding of how it works and how to make advantages out of it. Cheers mate!
***** Thank you so much, it was a really great and easy-to-understand explanation ! It was really helpful ;)
Daniel Gjerlev From a 17 year old it was the best I could do xD
@NatetheItalianStallion That was brilliant! Was diagnosed with retroversion myself just yesterday and as such have been trying to get a UA-cam crash course in anatomical abnormalities of the hips. This is the best and easiest to understand explanation I've yet seen. Cheers!
Rae Carson One issue with my explanation I see now is that the retroversion doesn't necessarily give you more range of motion in the opposite direction of the abnormality. The muscles, tendons, and ligaments in there area limit the advantage greatly, so there is still a certain amount of movement unable to be accounted for.
YOUR CHANNEL IS AMAZING
this video provides incorrect info. that patient, according to his findings, is significantly retroverted....by 25 degrees or more...normal palpation of the GT in it most prominent position would be 10-15 degrees internal rotation....
😢Sería bueno que también te traducción en español por favor
All the ways from Sydney Australia thanks mate... very helpful.. Just 1 thing anteversion causes ext rot of the hip while femoral torsion causes int rot of the hip. Why do we use torsion and anteverts synonumously when they do the opposite... I see it in literature so much but my lecturer says its wrong... Can you plz elaborate... even John Hopkins said anteversion of femur causes intoe-ing but were taught otherwise because femoral torsion causes intoe-ing.. so confusing, so if you could help me out, id love it. thanks
I want to help you about this. actually there are some confusion about to define anteversion and retroversion. some people say it is just the position of femoral head in acetabulum regardless of the torsion of femoral shaft(condyle),other people explain that it is the combination of angle difference between the posion of femoral head in acetabulum and femoral torsion. so it can cause some confusion however just think separately, so I will explain about what is femoral torsion, femoral torsion refer to the twist of shaft of femur,not the position of femoral head in acetabulum. so normally it is internally 30 degree rotated relative to femoral head angle at birth. then the degree becomes reduced when child becomes older to 8-12 degree relative to femoral head. so adult normal degree of femoral tosion is 8 to 12 degree internally rotated relative to femoral head. so we called this the derotation which is the process of reducing the internal rotation angle of femoral torsion at birth. in here, some problems can happen by too much derotation or too little derotation, in case of too much derotation, people have externally rotated knee position or out toeing, and in case of too little derotation, people have internally rotated knee position or in toeing.
one thing more,
anteversion cause more internal rotation of the hip. also, when you mention femoral torsion, if that means too little de rotation, it can make sense. it can cause internal rotation of knee and intoeing.
A picture is worth a thousand words so here is a link explaining Ante/Retro Version & Torsion. It's all about angles. Anteversion & Retrotorsion cause toes out and Retroversion & Antetorsion cause toes in. I realize your post is from a year ago and you likely have this answered already, but in any case, here you go. www.clinicalgaitanalysis.com/faq/torsion.html
Thank you
Lol it looks like the subject in the video has anteversion from how much IR they have
He keeps saying external rotation but moves the foot inwards. Is that the right way round?
+Oli Mercer Pay attention to the position of the hip, not the foot. He has it correct, but this can be a tricky concept to understand.
Think of which way her toes would be pointing, if her feet were on the ground.
She's dead...yep, definitely dead.
Like she's motionless
"Donated body" for the advancement of science.
good