I could go on a whole rant about these two (and I will soon enough), but for now, I'll just leave you all with a short excerpt from my chara video: ahem. "These fucking children are going to be the death of me i swear to Dog."
I really like the idea that we conjure the ghosts of these characters over the course of the story. For Chara in particular, it sheds insight into why they act the way they do at the end of No Mercy. They aren't strictly "Chara" in that moment -- rather, they embody the shadow that Chara's death casts over the story.
@@3than0lvideos22undertale genocide is 100% the player's fault and i dont know how people dont see it even though chara literally tells you straight up
Beautiful video Viv. I remember you telling me you were a bit intimidated to wade into Chara analysis, but the way I see it this is the only way Chara analysis really gets done. Outside of the broad strokes, they're too convoluted and contradictory a character to decisively solve with one interpretation, and the way to make sense of them is to piece together all these different viewpoints. Analyzing Chara as symbolic of violence without veering into early-fandom-nochoco-type dark evil demon child nonsense is always a fine line to walk, and I like your approach here, noting that even though Asriel and Chara symbolize a sort of dichotomy between mercy and violence, _both sides_ of that dichotomy were still rooted in the same good intentions. "Love", as you put it. I have the perspective that all violence in Undertale (with the exception of Mettaton, who'd just a dick I guess) falls into one of two categories: 1) Metacommentary on the pseudo-psychopathic mindset through which players interact with video games, and 2) people justifying cruel actions with noble intentions. Outside of case 1, I don't believe Undertale ever seriously intended to convey the highly redundant message that "killing people for no reason is bad". It's stance on real violence, at least within its own story, actually seems to be much stronger and harder to swallow: "killing people for _good reasons_ is also bad". This is the type of violence that Chara, in life, stood for. Not sadism, but a sort of grim pragmatism. Open-mindedness toward cruelty, when useful. The type of mindset that, say, might drive people to write long reddit posts complaining that Undertale is bullshit because all Frisk's killing was in self defence and would be legal in the state of Texas, etc. I could go on, but I'm only getting farther from the topic of the video the longer I write. Suffice to say, I liked the video.
I feel like the point about the grim pragmatism gets heavily undercut in the popular conciousness because of Chara's confident hate for Humanity. They really might have done that out of their love for Monsters first, but it's not hard to imagine that they could be equally or perhaps even more motivated by the former.
@@ShadowSkryba I don't see that as a contradiction, openness to violence as a tool and personal motivations to cause someone harm are mutually-reinforcing mindsets. With additional context from the recent 9th anniversary letter, it's clear that Chara saw strength and violence as an escape from vulnerability (ie. a way to avoid being hurt), which corresponds 1-1 with Flowey's "kill or be killed" philosophy and Sans "the more you hurt, the less you will be hurt" description of LV. I think this is probably the clearest view we can get into what drove Chara's hatred of humanity- they were hurt in some way by human society to the point of fleeing to Mt. Ebott, they distanced themselves from that pain by viewing humans as enemies that could be defeated with sufficient power, and that mindset was radicalized by the monsters' own animosity toward humans and desperation to escape the Underground.
@@andrew_cunningham I mainly meant the popular view of Evil/Morally Compromised Chara that used to be extremely pervasive. Because hate is usually seen as an irrefutable character flaw one has to overcome or is corrosive enough to make one a monster they themselves feared. I did not expect such a detailed and convincing response, thanks! Toby did us a huge service with the letter, truly.
You telling me monsters who where sealed by humatity and where endangered by them should of been killed for fighting back? I understand that unfortunately there are times were killing is nessary but just because something is legal dosent make it right.
I know that digging into material from outside the games itself muddies the point, but I still absolutely adore the letter/poem from Asriel at the end of the 9th Anniversary newsletter for the context it adds to this topic. It grounds Chara and Asriel's differing "completionist" philosophies in something relatable and sympathetic. Chara saw power as a shield as much as a weapon, if not more so. If you reached "the absolute," became the strongest that was it was possible to become, nothing could hurt you or those your cared about ever again. But Asriel sees "the absolute" as "the end" and never wants anything good to end. Both views are perfectly reasonable conclusions for children to reach, especially with what's implied about the reasons Chara climbed Mt. Ebott in the first place. It's only the extreme and traumatic nature of their deaths and the loss of their souls that twists their childhood ideals into philosophies of violence.
I also love how these viewpoints are shown in the number they're associated with. Chara is associated with the number 9, and Asriel is associated with infinity (Check states he has infinite attack and defence) In fact now that I think about it Chara and 9 could even tie into the philosophy they adopt in the genocide run. The decimal place has reached its absolute, and now we must to move on to the next.
I love how the 9th Anniversary letter from Asriel adds depth to Chara and Asriel’s views on power. Chara saw it as a way to protect, while Asriel feared it meant an end to all good things. Both views feel natural for kids, and their tragic deaths twisted those ideals into violence. Great video-loved how you tackled Chara’s complexity without falling into old fandom clichés. Great analysis dude! The Void of Undertale sure goes deep don't it? 👀
Excellent points about grief and learning to let go at the end. But what breaks my heart is that asriels fate, even in the true pascifist is to be left a souless flower forever. Is that hug supposed to fuel him for the indefinet future? We dont even know how long its been for him over his many resets. He lost his soul and dissociated for years, centuries until the events of the game, he gets the power of god and his emotions back for 20 minutes and had to give them back. Thats it. The kicker is that he died in what many would think noble by choosing not to kill humans. Chara was the one who goated him into the plan that he didnt want to do. Also THEY ARE KIDS. Their mistake have so many ripples throughout the underground but even so the eternal punishment feels so horribly unfair. Everyone gets a happy ending besides asriel and chara, neither can be saved. Im glad your video talks about this haunting void that some almost gloss over. I was expecting deltarune and you hit me with this this thematic masterpiece. Great job!
Something that makes me interested is that Asriel and Chara act quite like their parents respectively. Asriel is like Asgore because of his similar attacks, similar personality, and etc. (He has some of Toriel’s attacks too.) Chara slightly acts like Toriel due to them having a large vocabulary and testing the player’s morality. (If the Narrator-Chara theory was true, this part would make more sense.) I have commented this on a few videos, but I feel like it could be more talked about.
Asriel: - Once we start fighting Asriel in True Pacifist, the first attack he uses is a fire attack that is basically ripped straight from Toriel. - Asriel’s chaos saber attack is similar to Asgore’s blue and orange trident swing attack - Some of Asriel’s star attacks are similar to Asgore’s fire attacks. - When Asriel starts having a meltdown about Chara, he uses a fire “attack” that purposely misses you, which is exactly what Toriel does when you fight her at low HP or you’re about to spare her. - When we finish the Asriel fight, and we meet his normal form, we get to see that Asriel thought he didn’t deserve to be forgiven because he hurt you and hurt a lot of other people. You know who else says something similar to this? Asgore after you fight him in the neutral route. - After we wake up in True Pacifist, we can meet Asriel at the start of the Ruins, “taking care of the flowers”, which is exactly what Toriel does after you spare her and meet her at the start of the ruins.
Chara: - Once we meet Chara at the end of the Genocide route, they seem to be formal and seem to own a large vocabulary. Perhaps Toriel taught them how to speak this way? When we closely look at Toriel’s dialogue, she never uses shortened words. (Ex: Instead of saying “Isn’t”, Toriel would say “it is not”. And instead of saying “wouldn’t you?”, she says “would you not?”) - I feel like Chara loved gardening with their dad (Asgore) when they were alive, because when we come into “new home” and see Chara and Asriel’s gifts, the gift that is nearest to Chara’s bed (presumably Chara’s gift) contains the worn dagger, which has the description “Perfect for cutting plants and vines”, and, we also see Chara’s drawing of a golden flower near their bed. With all this plant related information around Chara, it’s safe to assume that they loved gardening, and they probably loved gardening with their dad.
where's that tumblr post that's like hauntological ghosts in the narrative in undertale: - the dead children who haunt the narrative not ghosts in the narrative of undertale: - actual ghosts (anyway - great video as always! you deserve so many more views within the UT/DR analysis-sphere IMO)
I personally like the idea that we pick up Chara's spirit at the beginning of the game. A number of people have come to the conclusion that where we fall is where Chara was buried. They're with us throughout the entire game and they are affected by our actions. In the no mercy route they are shown that violence and gaining power are the only things that matter. As a result they become a vengeful spirit unable to pass on. But in the pacifist route they learn the importance of compassion and mercy. They learn about the consequences of them and Asriel's actions. And I like to think that the save button only happens because Chara is fighting by our side to save their brother.
I don't interpret Chara as a single charater. Every route you take through the game presents them differently with different personality. They are 3 characters. In the neutral route, they live, they laugh, they move on tragically, but aren't forgotten by the monsters whose lives they touched. In the pacifist route, new context is added that implies they did everything they could trying to save monsterkind, even sacrificing their life in the underground in order to ensure their friends could be happy. Then in the genocide route, even more context is added which changes their sacrifice into a manipulative play for power. They are now presented as someone who doesn't truly care about their friends, only pretending to do so. No matter which route you are in, they are presented in the same way that the monsters see you. What's interesting is the way this is done through adding context to the story, so once you do the manipulative murder route, that's it. chara is always going to be a murderer doing the things they do as part of a twisted manipulative game. But for those who didn't do that route, chara is not. They are still a reflection of the player who stopped playing at whatever route they stopped at.
This is an eye-opening interpretation, and one I've never seen before. On top of wondering why the details we knew of Chara were seemingly conflicting, I always wondered if there was more to them having the player's name than just, "Hey did you know the avatar's name is actually Frisk haha lol." Your interpretation answers both of those questions! It's so cool that, even NINE years later, we can still find new ways to look at the game's narrative.
I'm too kind to do the "No Mercy" route. Same reason why I never did the "Snowgrave" route in Deltarune. For all I hate the character who is the main victim of that route, I don't wish death upon him, especially by my own hands manipulating the one who brings upon the "Snowgrave". I am incapable of that. My heart is too kind.
Genuinely amazing take on this, I'm not sure why no one ever thought of this before! Since it's seems so obvious once you actually point it out. Yeah, consider this my new headcanon now!
Makes me think of a quote from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. "Those who carry on the will of those who have passed must keep moving forward." It's our responsibility as the ones who survived to remember the lost and forge a better future. It's an unfair burden, but if we don't move forward, then their sacrifices will have meant nothing.
This is an incredibly beautiful video. I always cherish any content that can make me see Undertale in a new light, since it's a game that I've obsessed over for 9 years. You have such an eloquent way of putting ideas together that can only be described as a talent
One thing I think is worth mentioning about Undead Chara is that when Flowey first gets scared of them at the end of the no mercy run he nervously asks if they have any hard feelings about “back than” while that could be Flowey jumping to conclusions he says that in reaction to Chara making their creepy face at him, and since Undertale does use characters reacting to the protagonist’s face to tell the audience what they’re feeling, (Sans) I do think it’s possible that Chara killed Flowey not just because of their philosophy, but also because of a grudge.
Flowey perceives Chara's presence as potentially being still angry for trying to back out while they were fused. Chara by that point feels absolutely nothing, because unlike Flowey who lacks a Soul and can't gain LV, they have been gaining it by proxy of being attached to Frisk.
It's funny to consider that the game about diegetically dying and returning to life wouldn't just have the theme of grief about death and how to move from it. It's great to see it being remembered like that. This video is great, and I really like how it put the focus on how Chara and Asriel/Flowey void thematically connects to the player and gameplay experience. Heck, even the game over screen puts Asgore words to the dying Chara in it, to show the struggle to escape that grief, and now you are filling that void. Definitely a good subject to discuss about for UT anniversary!
As a full narraChara believer, this video gets even more awesome. I think another point to this 'demon' version of Chara in the No Mercy run is that there is a second point to their philosophy that they're also cementing through it, that in True Pacifist they're able to let go of: that mistakes are forever. The buttercup incident. Completing No Mercy. They couldn't go back from that, and they won't let you go back from what you've done, either. Chara, Undyne the Undying, Sans... the themes carry through, in many ways. Conversely in True Pacifist you have characters moving on. Toriel finally leaves the Ruins. Sans cheers you on and lets go of whatever ties him to that shed in Snowdin to experience the surface. Papyrus sees the sun, gains friends, and is even looked up to by characters like Monster Kid. Asgore lets go of his murder-suicide crusade. Mettaton EX no longer runs from his past. Muffet re-examines her own biases. And most telling of all- Asriel and Alphys' storylines are mirrors. All about not letting one mistake, no matter how big it is or seems, consume your life forever. And I like to think, that in True Pacifist, Chara learns this, too, instead of hollowing out into a LOVE-driven shell of a remnant whose truest, most visible act of agency is to violently cut you out of the world, rather than partner with you to provide information on it as I believe narraChara does.
yet another certified Vivat Veritas Banger 💯 this is such a great topic to tackle and you did an awesome job :) i love the narrative ambiguity that can come from your only knowledge about someone coming from others’ descriptions/reactions. such an interesting lens with which to look at the way we (sometimes inadvertently) reflect onto those around us in our communities and lives
"I'm the first 'me' to do it" Are you sure about that? Maybe there's a universe where both you and Toby Fox were born 10 years earlier and you made this video in 2014...
I screamed when I saw this notif, one of my favorite UTDR channels talking about Asriel and Chara haunting the narrative?? I couldn't ask for more. Also thank you for actually understanding Chara 🙏 I'm always wary when they get brought up cuz it's very easy to misunderstand them. Thanks specifically for pointing out that Chara isn't obsessed with murder, just with increasing stats and murder is how you do that in Undertale. If you increased stats by farming then Chara would be obsessed with farming lol
Playing An Unwavering Heart at 23:18 just destroyed me man. That song has so many emotions tied to it, it destroys me every single time. It was perfect for the point you made
I think the only other stories that have contradictory living people and ghosts would be the anime by Kunihiko Ikuhara. In both Revolutionary Girl Utena and Mawaru Penguindrum, ghosts of the past, people who are the results, perpetrators and symbols of ideologies within and the themes of their work, act as entities and mechanisms. I know that's a heady way of putting it, but I love hauntings like that, living ghosts.
I have watched all your vids, enjoy them a lot and find the parts you discuss much more intriguing than the standard theory videos out there. I always found the key differences to how 'determination' affected both characters is really interesting. Chara was determined to set their world free in by ANY means necessary, and in process anger took over and wanted more control, or unless narachara is real got to see that freedom for real. Meanwhilse, Asriel was trying to be true to himself, even at face of death of both him and his sibling which they love. His fate changed him drastically but in the end, never lost who they really were and what they wanted. This is why i love both this game and Deltarune. Toby just made this amazing piece of media that is so compelling people are still discussing it, their own theories on its narrative and lore. Dog good.
The message about remembrance and grief being a responsibility is very true. My father passed away 14 years ago, which gets closer to half my life ago with every new year. Before he died, my dad and I were not on speaking terms, but of course extended family and friends did not want to hear about the abuse he did to his children and how it caused me to lash out. I was told to "try to remember the good times," and as years have passed, I have been able to remember those good times more fondly. However, I do my best to also remember what bad times with my father were like - how helpless, scared, and angry I felt without control over my life. It's something that I never want anyone else to feel. Whether it was his bad jokes his students cracked up over, his love of hockey and fishing that he never let my gender get in the way of, or his abusive tendencies (especially after too many drinks), that's part of who my dad was. It's my responsibility to keep the truth, even as others want to remember a pretty façade.
Chara is probably the most interesting characters I've ever come across. Though they have barely any screentime, their role in the story is so unique. Most games will have the player simply be the protagonist with no distinction whatsoever. Other, less common (usually indie games) will have the controllable MC and the player themself as completely different entities, like DDLC. But to have a character who's not the MC OR the Player but rather an intermediary between them both is so interesting. And to this day, I've never been able to truly work out Chara. There's even more to them than their morality dependent on the Player's. When you reach Asgore's castle in the Genocide Route, it seems as though you're just walking in Flowey's footsteps. but then, right at the end, it's all about bringing back Chara. Did you change them? Did they change you? Or was it both? A chicken-and-egg situation. Supposedly, you're in control and made Chara like this. But then why does Chara say "Since when were you in control?" It's such an intriguing tangled web that you can never be 100% sure you got the right answer for.
im surprised you didnt mention the anniversary letter from asriel to chara! its not like it gives us THAT much more insight on their personality or motivations but idk i still really love it :) also i'm a "alarm clock dialogue / silly interviews from newsletters = post pacifist events" truther and it seems like toby likes the idea of floweypot too and its EVERYTHING to me. asriel and chara are still technically left behind, but are still together in the form of frisk and flowey. the memory of love changes and evolves with you. UTDR are both so poignant about grief and how to cope with it, im so excited and afraid for how it will be explored in deltarune x o x
I'm not sure why this video is in my recommends, but I glad it is. I'm not gonna get into it, but I just can't play Undertale anymore. Too many memories. Even the soundtrack brings back the melancholy. I hope this video game can live forever. Something has to.
@@TheLittleNoobThatCould I appreciate you watching! If you’re interested in videos unpacking the potential immortality of toby fox games, maybe keep an eye out on my channel...
I really love this concept of ghosts, especially because I think it fits into Deltarune's Narrative and I've never seen anyone talking about these type of relations yet, I think Toby managed to use them well in Undertale and he created a great plot for Chara and Asriel aswell, but there's a lot of things that I feel empty (mostly interactions between Chara and Us as players, maybe with Frisk too), but, we know Frisk and Us carry Chara's essence from the start of the game and that isn't pointed out or known until we get to the Genocide route and the story of these two it's finally explained in more detail, I just hope Toby knows how to improve this concept to make both Deltarune's Narratives a lot more interesting, seeing that Kris is acting weird sometimes and the main story is involving Us like players into the fight with the protagonist, I can easily see paralels between proyects and the use of this ghosts into the Narrative, not that Kris and Us are exactly carring the essence of a dead person on Deltarune, but rather, the essence of someone or something else, most likely, the essence from a Dark Entity... (I can see the Third Entity and Kris Knight haters coming towards me, but I don't care, I think of these concepts with a different perspective and I think they're great )
How do you grieve for the lost time of a previous existence where you were never truly alive? How do you reconcile that... person you were before, with the truth you've discovered now? How do I... grieve that time, before I was Blue, that person, those experiences, and the void left behind knowing that Blue, the girl I am today, can never fill that void with the experience she would have had instead? How do I grieve the years since discovering myself that I've laid stagnant, wallowing in regret and languishing in the confines of my own damaged sense of identity and self worth? I... I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know, how to deal with, how to... grieve, the years, decades, of "time" that I've lost. But I'm still here. That's gotta be something, right? I'm here, and I'm still gonna be here.
So good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so
One thing to note is that Sans explains the effects of LOVE and EXP. Stating that the higher it is, the easier it is to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others. At the end of the Genocide route, Chara becomes powerful enough to manifest themselves onto the world. But just like Flowey, they lack any ability to care, hope and love. When Sans first explains EXP and LOVE, it serves as a bit of foreshadowing for what happens in the No Mercy route. Also, I'm a supporter of the narrator Chara theory. I like to believe that Frisk's soul is Chara's soul. We don't know where their soul went to, Chara resonates specifically with Frisk (who also happens to look similar to them), they are both described as determined and any stats we have are actually Chara's. Even after the game reveals that Frisk is not the fallen human we name, we still see that the stats show Chara. I did like your insight in the fact that Chara wasn't rude or even bad to Asriel, much less their adoptive family. But they sure were assertive and willing to do extreme things with good intentions in mind. Even going as far as negating themselves a happy life with a supportive family for the sake of becoming a being capable of freeing monster kind
Congrats, you made me tear-up over my dead cat who I grieve for each night in bed. She was so precious to my heart, that she wasn't a pet to me. To me, she was my own daughter, and losing the life of a family member, hurts allot... She's been dead for a long time now, but I've never gotten over this ache of grief in my heart... Despite the words you said, I cannot ever get over it. She even has in my backyard her own grave and offerings and a thing about her there. A certain character in a game I played or somebody in a video, I forget which, spoke of this sort of feeling, very well. I cannot quote it word for word, but I'll try to state it as best I can: Wounds of the heart are much more difficult to heal, than physical wounds of the body. You can apply medicine and medical treatment to recover from wounds of the body, but the wounds of the heart, is much harder to heal. Of course, when the guy said "heart", he meant the metaphorical heart, not the body organ heart, though I suppose that wording could be applied there too in a way. I'm trying real hard to hold myself together, so this entire comment isn't just me sobbing from grief of losing a loved one. Hence why most of this comment isn't just me crying, and it just looks like I'm calm, I'm not.
12:36 don’t we get a choice? Iirc, Flowey won’t actually get attacked until you press something, giving you one last chance to close the game and back out.
Learned Latin since your last video. Thought you just had a weird name until now but looking at it, I’m fairly sure your name means “he/she/it lives truly”
@@lemonlordminecraft no it's just a weird name. Genuinely though, in my time doing Latin I believe it translates to "long live the truth", or at least as close as you can get to it.
I could go on a whole rant about these two (and I will soon enough), but for now, I'll just leave you all with a short excerpt from my chara video:
ahem.
"These fucking children are going to be the death of me i swear to Dog."
"and i mean that in every sense of the word"
I really like the idea that we conjure the ghosts of these characters over the course of the story. For Chara in particular, it sheds insight into why they act the way they do at the end of No Mercy. They aren't strictly "Chara" in that moment -- rather, they embody the shadow that Chara's death casts over the story.
yo snarlinger
little fan kids: BUT CHARA IS MONSTER SHE GENOCIDED WHOLE UNDERGROUND!!! ALSO SHE PSYCHO AND MANIAC :D
@@3than0lvideos22undertale genocide is 100% the player's fault and i dont know how people dont see it even though chara literally tells you straight up
1:10 You know you're too deep in the deltarune fandom when you dont even question the fact Woody is here for a second you just *know*
FreINd inSiDE mE
I wIlL nEvEr DiE
"Asriel's little flowery journey has kind of f*cked him up."
Me explaining why the cinnamon roll is now a serial killer.
He was doing it for a vine!
Beautiful video Viv. I remember you telling me you were a bit intimidated to wade into Chara analysis, but the way I see it this is the only way Chara analysis really gets done. Outside of the broad strokes, they're too convoluted and contradictory a character to decisively solve with one interpretation, and the way to make sense of them is to piece together all these different viewpoints. Analyzing Chara as symbolic of violence without veering into early-fandom-nochoco-type dark evil demon child nonsense is always a fine line to walk, and I like your approach here, noting that even though Asriel and Chara symbolize a sort of dichotomy between mercy and violence, _both sides_ of that dichotomy were still rooted in the same good intentions. "Love", as you put it.
I have the perspective that all violence in Undertale (with the exception of Mettaton, who'd just a dick I guess) falls into one of two categories: 1) Metacommentary on the pseudo-psychopathic mindset through which players interact with video games, and 2) people justifying cruel actions with noble intentions. Outside of case 1, I don't believe Undertale ever seriously intended to convey the highly redundant message that "killing people for no reason is bad". It's stance on real violence, at least within its own story, actually seems to be much stronger and harder to swallow: "killing people for _good reasons_ is also bad". This is the type of violence that Chara, in life, stood for. Not sadism, but a sort of grim pragmatism. Open-mindedness toward cruelty, when useful. The type of mindset that, say, might drive people to write long reddit posts complaining that Undertale is bullshit because all Frisk's killing was in self defence and would be legal in the state of Texas, etc.
I could go on, but I'm only getting farther from the topic of the video the longer I write. Suffice to say, I liked the video.
CHADrew CunningBASED back at it again 💯
I feel like the point about the grim pragmatism gets heavily undercut in the popular conciousness because of Chara's confident hate for Humanity. They really might have done that out of their love for Monsters first, but it's not hard to imagine that they could be equally or perhaps even more motivated by the former.
@@ShadowSkryba I don't see that as a contradiction, openness to violence as a tool and personal motivations to cause someone harm are mutually-reinforcing mindsets. With additional context from the recent 9th anniversary letter, it's clear that Chara saw strength and violence as an escape from vulnerability (ie. a way to avoid being hurt), which corresponds 1-1 with Flowey's "kill or be killed" philosophy and Sans "the more you hurt, the less you will be hurt" description of LV. I think this is probably the clearest view we can get into what drove Chara's hatred of humanity- they were hurt in some way by human society to the point of fleeing to Mt. Ebott, they distanced themselves from that pain by viewing humans as enemies that could be defeated with sufficient power, and that mindset was radicalized by the monsters' own animosity toward humans and desperation to escape the Underground.
@@andrew_cunningham I mainly meant the popular view of Evil/Morally Compromised Chara that used to be extremely pervasive. Because hate is usually seen as an irrefutable character flaw one has to overcome or is corrosive enough to make one a monster they themselves feared. I did not expect such a detailed and convincing response, thanks! Toby did us a huge service with the letter, truly.
You telling me monsters who where sealed by humatity and where endangered by them should of been killed for fighting back? I understand that unfortunately there are times were killing is nessary but just because something is legal dosent make it right.
I know that digging into material from outside the games itself muddies the point, but I still absolutely adore the letter/poem from Asriel at the end of the 9th Anniversary newsletter for the context it adds to this topic. It grounds Chara and Asriel's differing "completionist" philosophies in something relatable and sympathetic. Chara saw power as a shield as much as a weapon, if not more so. If you reached "the absolute," became the strongest that was it was possible to become, nothing could hurt you or those your cared about ever again. But Asriel sees "the absolute" as "the end" and never wants anything good to end. Both views are perfectly reasonable conclusions for children to reach, especially with what's implied about the reasons Chara climbed Mt. Ebott in the first place. It's only the extreme and traumatic nature of their deaths and the loss of their souls that twists their childhood ideals into philosophies of violence.
perfect summary of the letter tbh i feel the same way about it!
this, so much this
I also love how these viewpoints are shown in the number they're associated with. Chara is associated with the number 9, and Asriel is associated with infinity (Check states he has infinite attack and defence)
In fact now that I think about it Chara and 9 could even tie into the philosophy they adopt in the genocide run. The decimal place has reached its absolute, and now we must to move on to the next.
@Meowzio the very idea of the highest number is much more grim than an infinity continuing forever, while they might basically be similiar concepts
I love how the 9th Anniversary letter from Asriel adds depth to Chara and Asriel’s views on power. Chara saw it as a way to protect, while Asriel feared it meant an end to all good things. Both views feel natural for kids, and their tragic deaths twisted those ideals into violence. Great video-loved how you tackled Chara’s complexity without falling into old fandom clichés. Great analysis dude! The Void of Undertale sure goes deep don't it?
👀
Excellent points about grief and learning to let go at the end. But what breaks my heart is that asriels fate, even in the true pascifist is to be left a souless flower forever. Is that hug supposed to fuel him for the indefinet future? We dont even know how long its been for him over his many resets. He lost his soul and dissociated for years, centuries until the events of the game, he gets the power of god and his emotions back for 20 minutes and had to give them back. Thats it. The kicker is that he died in what many would think noble by choosing not to kill humans. Chara was the one who goated him into the plan that he didnt want to do. Also THEY ARE KIDS. Their mistake have so many ripples throughout the underground but even so the eternal punishment feels so horribly unfair. Everyone gets a happy ending besides asriel and chara, neither can be saved. Im glad your video talks about this haunting void that some almost gloss over. I was expecting deltarune and you hit me with this this thematic masterpiece. Great job!
Unfortunately, Asriel and Chara's fates are just the result of the human vs monster war
@@Aktedya1-jt7vwheartbreaking how these two kids who just wanted to save everyone are now the only ones unable to be saved. toby fox is so cool
Something that makes me interested is that Asriel and Chara act quite like their parents respectively.
Asriel is like Asgore because of his similar attacks, similar personality, and etc. (He has some of Toriel’s attacks too.)
Chara slightly acts like Toriel due to them having a large vocabulary and testing the player’s morality. (If the Narrator-Chara theory was true, this part would make more sense.)
I have commented this on a few videos, but I feel like it could be more talked about.
Asriel:
- Once we start fighting Asriel in True Pacifist, the first attack he uses is a fire attack that is basically ripped straight from Toriel.
- Asriel’s chaos saber attack is similar to Asgore’s blue and orange trident swing attack
- Some of Asriel’s star attacks are similar to Asgore’s fire attacks.
- When Asriel starts having a meltdown about Chara, he uses a fire “attack” that purposely misses you, which is exactly what Toriel does when you fight her at low HP or you’re about to spare her.
- When we finish the Asriel fight, and we meet his normal form, we get to see that Asriel thought he didn’t deserve to be forgiven because he hurt you and hurt a lot of other people. You know who else says something similar to this? Asgore after you fight him in the neutral route.
- After we wake up in True Pacifist, we can meet Asriel at the start of the Ruins, “taking care of the flowers”, which is exactly what Toriel does after you spare her and meet her at the start of the ruins.
Chara:
- Once we meet Chara at the end of the Genocide route, they seem to be formal and seem to own a large vocabulary. Perhaps Toriel taught them how to speak this way? When we closely look at Toriel’s dialogue, she never uses shortened words. (Ex: Instead of saying “Isn’t”, Toriel would say “it is not”. And instead of saying “wouldn’t you?”, she says “would you not?”)
- I feel like Chara loved gardening with their dad (Asgore) when they were alive, because when we come into “new home” and see Chara and Asriel’s gifts, the gift that is nearest to Chara’s bed (presumably Chara’s gift) contains the worn dagger, which has the description “Perfect for cutting plants and vines”, and, we also see Chara’s drawing of a golden flower near their bed. With all this plant related information around Chara, it’s safe to assume that they loved gardening, and they probably loved gardening with their dad.
I like turtles
Also Asgore and Asriel use "Howdy" while Toriel and Chara use "Greetings"
@@Meowzio
When does Toriel say “Greetings” again?
It sounds like a word Toriel would say but I don’t remember exactly which dialogue she says it in.
where's that tumblr post that's like
hauntological ghosts in the narrative in undertale:
- the dead children who haunt the narrative
not ghosts in the narrative of undertale:
- actual ghosts
(anyway - great video as always! you deserve so many more views within the UT/DR analysis-sphere IMO)
I personally like the idea that we pick up Chara's spirit at the beginning of the game. A number of people have come to the conclusion that where we fall is where Chara was buried. They're with us throughout the entire game and they are affected by our actions. In the no mercy route they are shown that violence and gaining power are the only things that matter. As a result they become a vengeful spirit unable to pass on. But in the pacifist route they learn the importance of compassion and mercy. They learn about the consequences of them and Asriel's actions. And I like to think that the save button only happens because Chara is fighting by our side to save their brother.
I don't interpret Chara as a single charater. Every route you take through the game presents them differently with different personality. They are 3 characters.
In the neutral route, they live, they laugh, they move on tragically, but aren't forgotten by the monsters whose lives they touched.
In the pacifist route, new context is added that implies they did everything they could trying to save monsterkind, even sacrificing their life in the underground in order to ensure their friends could be happy.
Then in the genocide route, even more context is added which changes their sacrifice into a manipulative play for power. They are now presented as someone who doesn't truly care about their friends, only pretending to do so.
No matter which route you are in, they are presented in the same way that the monsters see you.
What's interesting is the way this is done through adding context to the story, so once you do the manipulative murder route, that's it. chara is always going to be a murderer doing the things they do as part of a twisted manipulative game.
But for those who didn't do that route, chara is not. They are still a reflection of the player who stopped playing at whatever route they stopped at.
This is an eye-opening interpretation, and one I've never seen before. On top of wondering why the details we knew of Chara were seemingly conflicting, I always wondered if there was more to them having the player's name than just, "Hey did you know the avatar's name is actually Frisk haha lol." Your interpretation answers both of those questions! It's so cool that, even NINE years later, we can still find new ways to look at the game's narrative.
I'm too kind to do the "No Mercy" route. Same reason why I never did the "Snowgrave" route in Deltarune. For all I hate the character who is the main victim of that route, I don't wish death upon him, especially by my own hands manipulating the one who brings upon the "Snowgrave". I am incapable of that. My heart is too kind.
Reminds me a lot of slay the princess.
Oh geez this is actually pretty interesting
Genuinely amazing take on this, I'm not sure why no one ever thought of this before! Since it's seems so obvious once you actually point it out. Yeah, consider this my new headcanon now!
Makes me think of a quote from JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Part 5. "Those who carry on the will of those who have passed must keep moving forward."
It's our responsibility as the ones who survived to remember the lost and forge a better future. It's an unfair burden, but if we don't move forward, then their sacrifices will have meant nothing.
This is an incredibly beautiful video. I always cherish any content that can make me see Undertale in a new light, since it's a game that I've obsessed over for 9 years. You have such an eloquent way of putting ideas together that can only be described as a talent
One thing I think is worth mentioning about Undead Chara is that when Flowey first gets scared of them at the end of the no mercy run he nervously asks if they have any hard feelings about “back than” while that could be Flowey jumping to conclusions he says that in reaction to Chara making their creepy face at him, and since Undertale does use characters reacting to the protagonist’s face to tell the audience what they’re feeling, (Sans) I do think it’s possible that Chara killed Flowey not just because of their philosophy, but also because of a grudge.
Flowey perceives Chara's presence as potentially being still angry for trying to back out while they were fused. Chara by that point feels absolutely nothing, because unlike Flowey who lacks a Soul and can't gain LV, they have been gaining it by proxy of being attached to Frisk.
21:23
In short, its raining somewhere else
It's funny to consider that the game about diegetically dying and returning to life wouldn't just have the theme of grief about death and how to move from it. It's great to see it being remembered like that. This video is great, and I really like how it put the focus on how Chara and Asriel/Flowey void thematically connects to the player and gameplay experience. Heck, even the game over screen puts Asgore words to the dying Chara in it, to show the struggle to escape that grief, and now you are filling that void. Definitely a good subject to discuss about for UT anniversary!
As a full narraChara believer, this video gets even more awesome. I think another point to this 'demon' version of Chara in the No Mercy run is that there is a second point to their philosophy that they're also cementing through it, that in True Pacifist they're able to let go of: that mistakes are forever. The buttercup incident. Completing No Mercy. They couldn't go back from that, and they won't let you go back from what you've done, either. Chara, Undyne the Undying, Sans... the themes carry through, in many ways. Conversely in True Pacifist you have characters moving on. Toriel finally leaves the Ruins. Sans cheers you on and lets go of whatever ties him to that shed in Snowdin to experience the surface. Papyrus sees the sun, gains friends, and is even looked up to by characters like Monster Kid. Asgore lets go of his murder-suicide crusade. Mettaton EX no longer runs from his past. Muffet re-examines her own biases. And most telling of all- Asriel and Alphys' storylines are mirrors. All about not letting one mistake, no matter how big it is or seems, consume your life forever. And I like to think, that in True Pacifist, Chara learns this, too, instead of hollowing out into a LOVE-driven shell of a remnant whose truest, most visible act of agency is to violently cut you out of the world, rather than partner with you to provide information on it as I believe narraChara does.
hell yeah fuck yeah hell fucking yeah (i agree with this comment)
@Thorax420 ☺️ thanks!
yet another certified Vivat Veritas Banger 💯 this is such a great topic to tackle and you did an awesome job :) i love the narrative ambiguity that can come from your only knowledge about someone coming from others’ descriptions/reactions. such an interesting lens with which to look at the way we (sometimes inadvertently) reflect onto those around us in our communities and lives
"I'm the first 'me' to do it"
Are you sure about that? Maybe there's a universe where both you and Toby Fox were born 10 years earlier and you made this video in 2014...
I screamed when I saw this notif, one of my favorite UTDR channels talking about Asriel and Chara haunting the narrative?? I couldn't ask for more.
Also thank you for actually understanding Chara 🙏 I'm always wary when they get brought up cuz it's very easy to misunderstand them. Thanks specifically for pointing out that Chara isn't obsessed with murder, just with increasing stats and murder is how you do that in Undertale. If you increased stats by farming then Chara would be obsessed with farming lol
8:10 this is barely relevant but I just now realized asriels eyes are closed in this frame. For the first time. After 8-9 years in this fandom
Amazing, per usual.
I really liked the last part on remembrance. That was very touching.
Playing An Unwavering Heart at 23:18 just destroyed me man. That song has so many emotions tied to it, it destroys me every single time. It was perfect for the point you made
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon music at the beginning... "Although the parting hurts" at the end...
Your videos have such a of just moving me deeply. Thank you once again!
It's amazing how Chara and Asriel are parallels to the very form of Undertale, divided into two routes
I think the only other stories that have contradictory living people and ghosts would be the anime by Kunihiko Ikuhara. In both Revolutionary Girl Utena and Mawaru Penguindrum, ghosts of the past, people who are the results, perpetrators and symbols of ideologies within and the themes of their work, act as entities and mechanisms. I know that's a heady way of putting it, but I love hauntings like that, living ghosts.
Dude this video is fucking beautiful. Like I didn't cry but I felt like I wanted to? Great shit kudos man
You did it. You actually did it. You said something new about Undertale. You absolute Chad
You can never go back, but there’s always something you can do to make the best of the here and now. Nice video!
I have watched all your vids, enjoy them a lot and find the parts you discuss much more intriguing than the standard theory videos out there.
I always found the key differences to how 'determination' affected both characters is really interesting.
Chara was determined to set their world free in by ANY means necessary, and in process anger took over and wanted more control, or unless narachara is real got to see that freedom for real.
Meanwhilse, Asriel was trying to be true to himself, even at face of death of both him and his sibling which they love. His fate changed him drastically but in the end, never lost who they really were and what they wanted.
This is why i love both this game and Deltarune. Toby just made this amazing piece of media that is so compelling people are still discussing it, their own theories on its narrative and lore.
Dog good.
Ghosts of the narrative that cast a long shadow over the story?
Like Dess? Like G_ster??
3:46 obligatory petscop reference
VIVAT STOP MAKING AMAZING VIDEOS YOU'RE GETTING ME ON UA-cam AGAIN
The message about remembrance and grief being a responsibility is very true. My father passed away 14 years ago, which gets closer to half my life ago with every new year. Before he died, my dad and I were not on speaking terms, but of course extended family and friends did not want to hear about the abuse he did to his children and how it caused me to lash out. I was told to "try to remember the good times," and as years have passed, I have been able to remember those good times more fondly.
However, I do my best to also remember what bad times with my father were like - how helpless, scared, and angry I felt without control over my life. It's something that I never want anyone else to feel. Whether it was his bad jokes his students cracked up over, his love of hockey and fishing that he never let my gender get in the way of, or his abusive tendencies (especially after too many drinks), that's part of who my dad was. It's my responsibility to keep the truth, even as others want to remember a pretty façade.
Chara is probably the most interesting characters I've ever come across. Though they have barely any screentime, their role in the story is so unique. Most games will have the player simply be the protagonist with no distinction whatsoever. Other, less common (usually indie games) will have the controllable MC and the player themself as completely different entities, like DDLC. But to have a character who's not the MC OR the Player but rather an intermediary between them both is so interesting.
And to this day, I've never been able to truly work out Chara. There's even more to them than their morality dependent on the Player's. When you reach Asgore's castle in the Genocide Route, it seems as though you're just walking in Flowey's footsteps. but then, right at the end, it's all about bringing back Chara. Did you change them? Did they change you? Or was it both? A chicken-and-egg situation. Supposedly, you're in control and made Chara like this. But then why does Chara say "Since when were you in control?" It's such an intriguing tangled web that you can never be 100% sure you got the right answer for.
Napstablook Mettaton Mad Mew Mew Ruins Dummy
im surprised you didnt mention the anniversary letter from asriel to chara! its not like it gives us THAT much more insight on their personality or motivations but idk i still really love it :) also i'm a "alarm clock dialogue / silly interviews from newsletters = post pacifist events" truther and it seems like toby likes the idea of floweypot too and its EVERYTHING to me. asriel and chara are still technically left behind, but are still together in the form of frisk and flowey. the memory of love changes and evolves with you. UTDR are both so poignant about grief and how to cope with it, im so excited and afraid for how it will be explored in deltarune x o x
17:05 Homestuck reference ah
Homestuck reference ah
I'm not sure why this video is in my recommends, but I glad it is. I'm not gonna get into it, but I just can't play Undertale anymore. Too many memories. Even the soundtrack brings back the melancholy. I hope this video game can live forever. Something has to.
@@TheLittleNoobThatCould I appreciate you watching! If you’re interested in videos unpacking the potential immortality of toby fox games, maybe keep an eye out on my channel...
I love this ghost archetype. I think Kunihiko Ikuhara does something similar.
the best story about a heart and a flower there is
Wow dude not to be weird but your voice is really relaxing
I love the sheer amount of pokemon music in an undertale video lol
I really love this concept of ghosts, especially because I think it fits into Deltarune's Narrative and I've never seen anyone talking about these type of relations yet, I think Toby managed to use them well in Undertale and he created a great plot for Chara and Asriel aswell, but there's a lot of things that I feel empty (mostly interactions between Chara and Us as players, maybe with Frisk too), but, we know Frisk and Us carry Chara's essence from the start of the game and that isn't pointed out or known until we get to the Genocide route and the story of these two it's finally explained in more detail, I just hope Toby knows how to improve this concept to make both Deltarune's Narratives a lot more interesting, seeing that Kris is acting weird sometimes and the main story is involving Us like players into the fight with the protagonist, I can easily see paralels between proyects and the use of this ghosts into the Narrative, not that Kris and Us are exactly carring the essence of a dead person on Deltarune, but rather, the essence of someone or something else, most likely, the essence from a Dark Entity... (I can see the Third Entity and Kris Knight haters coming towards me, but I don't care, I think of these concepts with a different perspective and I think they're great )
1:40 HOLLOW KNIGHT REFRENCE
19:03 DAMN x2
OH MY GOD YOU ARE ALIVE
don't forget papyrus
....unless you mention him in the video i haven't finished it yet
Don’t forget, he’s with you in the dark.
How do you grieve for the lost time of a previous existence where you were never truly alive? How do you reconcile that... person you were before, with the truth you've discovered now? How do I... grieve that time, before I was Blue, that person, those experiences, and the void left behind knowing that Blue, the girl I am today, can never fill that void with the experience she would have had instead?
How do I grieve the years since discovering myself that I've laid stagnant, wallowing in regret and languishing in the confines of my own damaged sense of identity and self worth?
I... I don't know. I don't know if I'll ever know, how to deal with, how to... grieve, the years, decades, of "time" that I've lost. But I'm still here. That's gotta be something, right? I'm here, and I'm still gonna be here.
24:34… thank you.
So good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so good so
Good?
One thing to note is that Sans explains the effects of LOVE and EXP. Stating that the higher it is, the easier it is to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others.
At the end of the Genocide route, Chara becomes powerful enough to manifest themselves onto the world. But just like Flowey, they lack any ability to care, hope and love.
When Sans first explains EXP and LOVE, it serves as a bit of foreshadowing for what happens in the No Mercy route.
Also, I'm a supporter of the narrator Chara theory. I like to believe that Frisk's soul is Chara's soul. We don't know where their soul went to, Chara resonates specifically with Frisk (who also happens to look similar to them), they are both described as determined and any stats we have are actually Chara's. Even after the game reveals that Frisk is not the fallen human we name, we still see that the stats show Chara.
I did like your insight in the fact that Chara wasn't rude or even bad to Asriel, much less their adoptive family. But they sure were assertive and willing to do extreme things with good intentions in mind. Even going as far as negating themselves a happy life with a supportive family for the sake of becoming a being capable of freeing monster kind
Congrats, you made me tear-up over my dead cat who I grieve for each night in bed. She was so precious to my heart, that she wasn't a pet to me. To me, she was my own daughter, and losing the life of a family member, hurts allot... She's been dead for a long time now, but I've never gotten over this ache of grief in my heart... Despite the words you said, I cannot ever get over it. She even has in my backyard her own grave and offerings and a thing about her there. A certain character in a game I played or somebody in a video, I forget which, spoke of this sort of feeling, very well. I cannot quote it word for word, but I'll try to state it as best I can: Wounds of the heart are much more difficult to heal, than physical wounds of the body. You can apply medicine and medical treatment to recover from wounds of the body, but the wounds of the heart, is much harder to heal. Of course, when the guy said "heart", he meant the metaphorical heart, not the body organ heart, though I suppose that wording could be applied there too in a way. I'm trying real hard to hold myself together, so this entire comment isn't just me sobbing from grief of losing a loved one. Hence why most of this comment isn't just me crying, and it just looks like I'm calm, I'm not.
12:36 don’t we get a choice? Iirc, Flowey won’t actually get attacked until you press something, giving you one last chance to close the game and back out.
0:48 TGAA MENTIONED RAAAAAAAA
Learned Latin since your last video. Thought you just had a weird name until now but looking at it, I’m fairly sure your name means “he/she/it lives truly”
@@lemonlordminecraft no it's just a weird name.
Genuinely though, in my time doing Latin I believe it translates to "long live the truth", or at least as close as you can get to it.
what do they teach ebenezer?
Scrooge
spooooooooooky
Homestuck reference
support comment
What do you mean this is how I learn you're a fe3h fan. Fe3h fan are so hard to come by these days so this made me really happy.
Second