Why Final Fantasy XIV isn't an MMORPG...it's an MORPG. (Why FFXIV is beating WoW.)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Editorial piece on why I think FFXIV is better suited as an MORPG, not an MMORPG. Sources linked below. Edited by YungFalcon edit: the 750 number is not a server cap, is simultaneous logins. MY BAD.
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Sources:
• Yoshida (FFXIV) on Wor...
www.pcgamesn.c...
dragonquest.fa....
www.gamasutra....
www.gamasutra....
www.polygon.co... = PSO isn't an MMO
wiki.guildwars... - GW = CORPG
www.pcgamesn.c... = FFXIV not a "true sandbox mmo"
www.wolfsheado...
www.gamasutra....
www.raphkoster...
www.gamersnexu...
en.wikipedia.o...
en.wikipedia.o...
en.wikipedia.o...)
www.wired.com/...
www.engadget.c....
forum.square-e...
finalfantasy.f...
• FFXIV: 1.0 vs ARR (2.0...
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The original article says they added an additional 18,000 logins across all the NA data centers, approximately 750 per server. They didn’t reduce them.
OP and description were edited to reflect
@@nerdSlayerstudioss I hope I didn’t sound harsh, didn’t mean to. Love the content, bro!
@@nerdSlayerstudioss But your description says "the 750 reduction" it isn't a reduction. It's 750 extra per world server on top of what already existed.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss The edit still isn't quite right. It was a 750 max player increase for each NA server. There was no decrease whatsoever.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss It's still wrong.
one point, the 750 cap is not server cap, its how many simultaneous logins can occur for a server, not its top capacity
And it's not even the true cap. That's how much they increased the login cap on NA servers.
You are absolutely right, I fixed that in the description and pinned comment my bad!
What is the difference? The total number of players logged on at the same time is the server cap. If you are trying to split hairs and act like more people can create characters on the server than 750, than no one uses that as what they mean when people say "server cap"
@@Evirthewarrior Typically a server is "capped" when it is impossible to create more characters as the server has reached it's maximum data capacity, the 750 capacity upgrade was not a maximum data capacity upgrade it was a per server simultaneous login upgrade, 750 extra players are able to login to the NA server of their choice w/o being put into an overly-long login queue
@@Vaughnsta99 They only cap high pop servers because of queue times because having tens of thousands of people trying to log on at the same time causes massive queues, they can have a near infinite number of players in a database. They could have millions of players on their database per server. A server is capped once it reaches the point where there is a queue to log in.
you are being illogical. This isnt 1998 and hard drives cap out at a few gigs
hey there! Just wanted to point out what I think is a misunderstanding at 20:52. In FFXIV, servers are *not* capped at 750 players. The cap was *increased* by 750 players, per server, due to matching server optimization.
Also it was about simultaneous login capacity, not server capacity or any kind of zone capacity. The login server is separate to the world servers and was getting absolutely hammered by the influx of new people, it wasn't able to process enough players fast enough and so its capacity to expediate players was upgraded. I hope he goes back into the vid and clarifies this, because its disingenuous to say the server cap is 750 (along with other things in the vid).
The "login cap" not the "population cap." there's a difference. The quantity of people the sever will allow to simultaneously attempt to login at the same time was increased. They still make you sit in a queue and log people in on one minute intervals though. But come endwalker patch day when all the servers come back online and we all get thrown in the queue, Instead of seeing a 3k user queue that drops by 100 players every minute, it'll drop by 750 players every minute.
Feels like this is a fundamental point that changes the entire conclusion of the video
@@Adlehyde. Not sure about this. I think when Yoshi-P talks about "login caps" and "simultaneous logins" he does effectively mean the server cap. He explains it like this:
"The population that can be logged in to each World server at one time is capped; however, as some of you have noticed, this cap is not the same for all servers, and differs somewhat between data centers (Mana, Aether, Chaos, etc.). The main reason for this has to do with a data center’s “matching server.” A matching server can only handle so much information, so to ensure that it functions properly, a capacity limit must be set. This limit determines the overall maximum population of a data center, which is then divided by the number of Worlds in the data center to calculate how many players can be logged in to each World."
So server capacity is dictated by the matching server, not by the actual server hardware. But it's still effectively the server capacity.
This has nothing to do with attempted log-ins but only actualy current logged-in characters. Why am I sure of that? Simply because there never was an issue with the log-in servers. The log-in queue worked, even if you were number 3000 in the queue. Those are attempted log-ins and these were queued correctly, no server issues. The issue was the capacity of the servers, or rather the matching server, resulting in 3000 people in the queue in the first place. Server status was "full" all the time, resulting in these queues. For anecdotal evidence: Since the EU servers were upgraded by an additional capacity for 500 extra players, my log-in queues during prime time went down by roughly 400 to 500.
@@allanw you clearly didnt watch the video then
I’m just happy that since I’ve starting playing FF14 in June I see people everywhere. A ton of people in the hub cities, a bunch of people in all the zones, the crafting areas.
Yeah it is all good and all but it lacks the key thing that mmo's have in order to give the full rpg experience, killing lowbies and ganking them over and over until they rage quit or call a max lvl friend. Sometimes i feel i am fully geared for nothing because i cannot one hit new players into the ground. It's like a hollow feeling knowing i cant do anything about it... On the other hand the tmog is the best period, so i guess the makes it even..
Probably the only near deadzones are Yanxia and The Lochs; late game Stormblood areas that don't have a huge reason to stick around when you can start heading into Shadowbringers.
@@zerwif Same problem with Tempest in Shadowbringers. Like they went through all the trouble of creating this massive, intricate, amazing looking area....and forgot is existed when it came time to figure out what content to add to the game.
@@neehime6 Is that a WoW thing specifically? That type of gameplay seems like it would contribute to a lot of toxicity in the community pretty quickly. Ganking in WoW’s WPvP actually caused my brother and the small stream audience he had to almost start a fight with each other, explicitly because of the tribalism it stirred up between the two factions. Both groups seemed to constantly group-hunt/one shot levelers and it led to both factions kinda hating each other outside of the game too. I think FFXIV is much smarter for partitioning off PvP into its own small part of the game. Having new/leveling players get annihilated by some guy just because his number was way bigger doesn’t feel satisfying or fair in any way, and it would likely result in that new player bouncing off the game rather than continue.
@@JDKT002 I think it works out for the better in the Tempest, especially in Amourat. A person summarized it perfectly in a video I saw: to make Amourat a hub area defeats the entire purpose of it being a lonely place for Emet-Selch. Emet-Selch lives in a bygone era and created the phantom city of Amourat to better cope(?) with the tragedy that befell his people. In the lore itself, I believe that it's implied that with the defeat of Emet-Selch, the city will eventually disappear, the ticking sound you hear is the countdown to the inevitable destruction of Amourat
"We set out to make a Final Fantasy version of WoW"
Now if only we had a WoW version of WoW.
You do. Its called classic, lol
Josh Strife Hayes: "The best content update WoW has ever had was the removal of 17 years of content."
You think you do, but you dont
Or a Fire emblem WoW
MMO = I can interact with people outside my group
MO = I only see people I am grouped up with
I would still say that WoW and FF14 are MMOs, but are more focused on the MO aspect liked dungeons and raids.
heck some of those instanced dungeons were open world zones in 1.0. copperbell mines, and iirc tam tara. instanced content wasn't really a thing till yoshida.
then they released boszja and the 48 player raids where you are technicly not part of a group with.
@@JohnSmith-ox3gy That would be MO, or how we used to call it in the old days as "Online-Multiplayer".
It's like what Jesse Cox said, WoW is an MMORPG and FF14 is an RPGMMO
@@kungfuvoodoo9889
Please don’t use that quote.
I understand what Jesse Cox means, and it has mostly to do with the game’s focus on story, but the game has lost so many of its RPG elements (like borrowing abilities from other classes or allocating stats with points you got) that I feel like the game doesn’t deserve to be called so.
Small note for you on the server size for FFXIV. The article you pulled that from was flat out wrong, they clearly didn't read the post from SE very well. Here is the actual quote from the post made by Yoshi P. "As it happens, the matching servers used in the North American data centers were recently upgraded to higher-performance models. Continued optimization of this new equipment has allowed us, as of July 16, to increase the maximum number of simultaneous logins across the NA data centers by 18,000, or approximately 750 per World server." They increased the player cap by 750 players per world server, the servers aren't capped at 750. If the server cap was 750 per world server the game would only support 51,000 active users worldwide, which is clearly not correct.
I don't feel like you explained what you mean by Massive, is the number of player on the screen? is player interaction? is a player economy? also you didn't explain at all why you couldn't play with your low level friend al least compared to other mmo.
i was wondering the cant play with low level friend part. I've had several friends join the game and literally helped and held their hands throughout ARR... so im really curious of what he means by that
@@belhihihi The only thing i could think is that he was too high level for open world mobs but that's in all MMO with vertical progression (wow vanilla included).
@@belhihihi I'd imagine its to do with the large number of Main Scenario Quests that put players into a solo duty for story battles.
@@EmperorPylades while there a good number of solo duty they are not even 10% of MSQ. I wouldn't call that not being able to play with your friend and since he didn't specify at all (just a vague game "mechanics") we can't know for sure.
The game for sure wasnt made to be played with a group of friends questing together. Besides a ocasional dungeon, everything is single player focused, and questing together is more a a struggle than a helper.
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
If it's a game that's online with massive amounts of players interacting with each other and it's a role playing game, then it's a MMORPG.
Just like Destiny, and COD
@@nerdSlayerstudioss That's just being extremely disingenuous. Cod isn't an rpg so that's an easy nope and destiny literally just can't have anywhere near the number of simultaneous players in an instance that FF14 can.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss You yourself know that this is a dumb argument. You're better than this.
I think your point is solid af, but you spend way too much time in the beginning with the feeling you're semantics gatekeeping. Also, massive doesn't have to scale with technology especially when you said that it's about intent and focus. 200 people raiding the same area is massive no matter the time.
Fair point
You said it. I had the same impression. His attempt to define the words to a tee somehow turned into gatekeeping.
Imagine a game created two decades from now and it can't be called "massive" if it doesn't house millions of players. lmao.
Everyone has a different idea of what "massive" means. Sure, FF is heavily instanced, yet I run around with a minimum of 100+ people going on A Rank Hunt Trains every day. Ishgard Restoration also brought hundreds of crafters and gathers together to accomplish goals together. Every week, there are social events containing anywhere from 50 to 300 players hanging out.
For me, an "MMO" earns that first "M" if it holds to potential for at minimum 100 people to be able to play together, even of it's not what everyone does
I finished the video. It was very well done, and I see your perspective. However I disagree. To me, MMOs are about the OPTION to play with a massive number of players. While for you, it doesn't earn that first "M" unless it FORCES you to do so. Understandable.
However other "MORPGs" like PSO don't even have the POSSIBILITY of playing with hundreds of people, and THATS what separates an MMO and a MO.... In my opinion.
100% agree with you. The game doesn't force you into these "massive" situations. You have to go to them yourselves, socialize and make friends. Kinda like in irl id rather have 3 good friends than be surrounded by 100s of people and be another number.
Yeah it’s an mmo. This video is just wrong.
@Bagwell so its wrong because you dont agree with it? I’d argue that the game isnt massive because I hardly ever see other players unless i jump into instanced content. It’s definitely an MO more than an MMO. The video is not wrong.
Bigger question, why does it matter if a game is called an MMORPG or just a MORPG. The game design has been muddied for years. There is no clear divide, its utterly pointless to try to define them. This video feels like you have very little experience in WoW or FFXIV.
The reasons are literally outlined in the video. I'm not going to bother responding when I feel like you aren't even owing me the basic charity of actually watching it. I literally listed why, with examples, and even examples of how it ruined other games rofl. But yeah it's just a video about semantics etc.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss I watched the entire video, I disagree with you. Sorry if that offends you.
good vid, I'm just amused about the use of Persona music while talking about how much you love Final Fantasy
I think FFXIV is "massive" enough to bare the MMO tag
*Why Warframe isn't an MMORPG* would be a better subject for the "massive or not" discussion
^This could also take the Looter tag in account too, which games nowadays over use it
"Looter Shooter" is a genuinely annoying label in modern game conversations because people just call literally any game where you fire a gun and pick things up a looter shooter and compare them as if this makes them 100% similar
It's not an MMORPG. FFXIV is a single player game like retail WoW.
750 cap?? There's 500 people in my fc...
I think MMO doesn't even exist outside of a marketing campaign. "Massive" is too subjective and i'm completely in for ditching the term.
Also, i knew the final reason would be Yoshi P. The guy is incredibly passionate and honest in his (and the team's) endeavors.
FFXIV and SE in general would not be here if it weren't for Yoshi P. I've never met someone as humble in the corporate world - probably a close second to Satoru Iwata
@@mattwo7 oh I’m aware he’s significantly lower. My point is their attitude especially toward their employees, very similar
This entire video feels like a fight about semantics to discredit or remove games from being called MMOs...
Exactly what I got from video as well. "Hey! Everyone is making a video about FFXIV due it's surge of success.. I better jump on the train but add a bit of controversy!"
No. You haven't played in a persistent sandbox before have you. You haven't seen 300+ people from top guilds in a server fight over a dragon boss. Then have arguements about the outcome affect server politics for months.
Wow has abandoned this game type, almost no one does it anymore. It's you not understanding the difference.
Yes, that is the exact argument. Once a definition becomes too broad, it becomes useless.
@@willichtenstein7071 But I have seen that... in FFXIV. When a new expansion launches, that's what happens with new FATEs, World Bosses, etc. At this point in the MMO genre, "MASSIVELY" means a completly different thing then 20 years ago, and that's fine.
100%. As if the original definition of a word is the only way we use words. This guy is probably the time to reply "He's actually pretty warm" when someone is described as "cool".
While most of the "structured" content in the game is indeed instanced and designed on a much smaller, focused scale, I think it's undeniable that what the community accomplishes in an unstructured, unofficial capacity has an organic and massive feeling to it. It's difficult to call the community anything but massive and online, even if the game itself is smaller scale.
This opens the gate for other games to also be considered MMOs
@@nerdSlayerstudioss Yes?
@@nerdSlayerstudioss if they are MMO by definition, who are we to discount the fact and call them otherwise?
I hate how dead the game feels as a social thing
@@nerdSlayerstudioss You literally have no clue what you're talking about, NerdSlayer, if you think FFXIV is an "MO." And that's fine: you're obviously basing what you think FFXIV is like on various assumptions that stem from projection and your lack of experience with the game (or perhaps a lack of experience with MMOs in general, since few MMOs have ever been more "massive" in scale).
So let someone who has 63 in-game days (over 1,100hrs) of playtime and has been playing MMORPGs since 1999 tell you what the game is _actually_ like, especially once you reach higher levels (because obviously, when leveling... you're just going to mostly stick with solo questing since that awards the most EXP, it's a ton of fun, and comes with a fantastic story).
• A-Rank Hunt Trains: Daily gatherings, usually happening 7 to 12 times _per day,_ where roughly 100+ people gather out in the open world and form various large groups, then go around killing A-rank hunt monsters on various "Worlds" around their datacenter.
• S-Rank Hunt Marks: Rare mobs that spawn out in the world under very strict conditions, usually 6-15 per day in one Datacenter. You will almost _always_ see 40+ people show up to kill these after various relays go out, and 100+ for the most recent expansion S-ranks.
• End-game Warzones: There's a place called "Gangos" where you partake in a series of end-game quests (to farm for your relic weapons, which can take weeks). This leads to two instances: The Bozjan Southern Front, and Zadnor. In each of these instances, you will almost _always_ find 50-100 players, all doing various world-bosses (skirmishes), 24 to 48 man instanced boss gauntlets (critical engagements), some of which are an hour long, etc. Some in smaller groups, some in very large groups.
• World FATEs: These are "rare" FATEs out in the open world that only spawn under certain conditions, but give high-rewards like a currency that can be used to buy the "epic mount" associated with the FATE, or unique armor sets, bardings, etc. Popular World FATEs like Ixion, or Formidable, or Archaeotania will often see 50-100 people show up and form various groups to tackle these fights, which usually last 15 minutes.
• 72-man PvP Instances: Yes, I know you mentioned this in your video, but these happen like 50 times a day, and are nothing short of "massively multiplayer," especially in comparison to other games that are considered "massively multiplayer."
• In-game concerts/events/parties: These (especially the concerts and dances) can sometimes have more than 100 people gathered in one place, all interacting, talking, watching real players perform, etc.
• Limsa Lominsa: The more popular "hangout city" in the game. You will almost _always_ find 60+ people hanging out here, even in less popular Worlds, socializing/chatting/playing instruments/dancing/having fun. At almost all hours of the day.
• 24-man Alliance Raids: While this isn't _that_ massive, it's still much larger than what you normally see, even in MMORPGs. And you could run these 30 times in a single day, and almost never get the same group of people.
So I've only scratched the surface here (didn't even mention Gold Saucer), but you get the point. By what standard are you measuring MMO's if this is not "massively multiplayer?" If you do not think these things constitute calling it that, then you clearly have very little or no experience in the MMO genre, or you're simply speaking from a lack of experience with FFXIV. I get what you were trying to say in your video, but FFXIV was probably the worst example you could've chosen.
the main thing is how they handled the community i think wow players just feel betrayed by blizzard at this point because blizzard just does what it wants without every trying to listen to its community and all the blizzard controversy's that keep piling up dont help their case either
The social aspect is far too strong to not called it a MMORPG.
Social aspect based on what exactly? I never talked to a single player and hit max level through MSQ.
Most of the game is spent questing where u need to do 0 interaction with players outside on dungeons
I guess I didn't see all those people advertising players to come visit thier homes which they had turn into bars and people were hanging out and chatting. Or people making haunted houses for halloween. Also try to do a savage raid without interacting or talking. You will get kicked.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss I have come across concerts randomly, house parties, visited clubs, bars, went to weddings, came across dance parties, went to a virtual meet up with twitch streamers all in game. I have no idea what you are doing but it ain't playing ffxiv like most people. And the only things I ever went out of my way to do was the twitch streamer and wedding things. Sounds like to me the social aspect being low in your experience is a you problem, not the game or community.
Not to mention savage raids and ex trials without communicating will get you kicked in raid finder swiftly.
@@nerdSlayerstudiossNot for progression no, but a lot when you get into rp and night clubs etc
It might be a reasonable definition, but no one else uses this definition of MMORPG. People play games that they hear called MMORPGs, then if there's a game that's similar to those, they call that an MMORPG, and other people know what they mean.
Then yes, we shouldn't complain when people call Dragon Quest (4 player co op) or MTG Legends (4 player co op) an MMO. Just please be consistent is all I say.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss Dragon Quest X has plenty of areas where you do content with more than 4 players.
MTG Legends was 3 players even in the instances, but in that case even the developers themselves strayed away from calling it an MMO realizing that their initial marketing was incorrect.
24:00 - Re:shards, when an expansion goes live, due to large player numbers- zones use shards for a temporary time and you have to select what channel to enter when passing through gates. It'd be interesting to see how they fully integrate it.
WoW is heavily sharded now, and it's invisible to the players, you just see less people in the field. That's actually been one of the complaints: the environments feel more empty than they should, even before the catastrophic events of the last month.
You know at level cap there are 2 72-man instanced zones, and 2 48-man raids right? Right?
EDIT: You give alot of outdated information about group content in the game.
Are you FORCED to play them though? NO?!! Thats an RPG with online features then. (obvious sarcasm)
I hope you guys enjoy this admittedly controversial subject matter, as I know people can be quite defensive of someone saying a game isn't an MMORPG due to it being used as a blunt force insult instrument to belittle certain games. Instead this video is a look at the often overlooked and misunderstood Japanese market, with looks at titles such as Dragon Quest X (Yoshi P's "first MMO") and Phantasy Star Online and how they led to Final Fantasy XIV. And as much as FFXIV fans want to make a crusade against WoW, in a battle of the titans WoW vs FFXIV. Even Yoshi P himself admits without WoW, there would be no FFXIV ARR. Ultimately I am open to all discussion and points of view, and look forward to such! Please refrain from insults on all sides too :).
edit: the 750 reduction is not a server cap, is simultaneous logins. MY BAD.
A fun video would be Bless Online and their transition to Unleashed Console and PC and how currently has 1,000,000 downloads and it’s in Top 10 games played on Steam. All the behind the scenes would be interesting.
Mass respect for your love of Spirits Within. But, have to know-Final Fantasy Unlimited. Thoughts?
I have never seen it but I’m genuinely curious now
To me, the difference between an MMORPG and an MORPG is how alive / filled the world outside of the capital cities feels.
Currently, FF XIV does a much better job at it
I loved the video. I would LOVE to see you do a deep dive on the decline of guild wars 1. That was my favorite online game.
@@Vizeroy9 just see GW2, Bless Unleashed and FFXIV those are mmorpg were players unite to kill bosses.
I mean, you can claim that it's better to look at a game a certain way all you want; the game is still an MMORPG by definition and any claim to the contrary is simply wrong.
I'll stop calling FF14 an MMO if you stop using the words "shard" and "sharding" 🤝
Another point about defining MMOs compared to other game genres is they have a bit more of a scientific definition, compared to other genres which change a bit more over time like a FPS.
MORPG aptly suits the game's overall content, however I do wish that 4p content had more of a focus. Yoshi-P and company believe it is too difficult to balance content for a 4p group and that too much stress will be put on healers. This leads to most instances having 8p where two healers are present by default. This also means that content like dungeons, deep dungeons, and 4p trials are cut back or out entirely, which shows in Shadowbringers.
Why did you get the numbers wrong around 20:50? They added 750 players to the existing cap per server. Heck my login queue (which I'm waiting for right now!) is 1844...
But that aside there are 48 man raids & 24 man raids in ffxiv... this whole video felt like it was deliberatly trying to stir up the controversy you claim surrounds this subject by creating it.
24 man raids are listed in the video. And I mentioned there is some fate content and one dungeon at 54 players. And the post says they reduced, not added.
You didn't bother to check square's announcements on that did you?
"As it happens, the matching servers used in the North American data centers were recently upgraded to higher-performance models. Continued optimization of this new equipment has allowed us, as of July 16, to increase the maximum number of simultaneous logins across the NA data centers by 18,000, or approximately 750 per World server."
They added 750 to server cap. And for someone that played rpg's for 21 years you seem to have a weird definition of massive multiplayer anyway. Who in the world would agree that it "should be more then X years ago"
I'm fine with creating a discussion but with such loose definitions and false information it's just rubbish.
"Naoki_Yoshida Further Details on Access... 08-30-2013"
I decided to poke around in YOUR sources a bit and guess what you are basing your statements on a 8 year old post!
I've also seen you reply to people stating that you fixed the description, but yet you still claim the simultanious log in was reduced which isn't the case. So my conclusion is that you are indeed trying to stir up a controversy that isn't there. Which means I hope I get another video of you recommended soon so I can tell youtube I don't want recommendations from this channel anymore.
Even though I have never played FFXIV the final part of the case is why I admire the devs behind it. It's so evident that they care and want to listen to the community. Like you said, what dev tells the community that it's okay to stop playing if/when you get bored! It's really admirable.
Shocking what actually listening to your community does...
Sounds like this guy hasn’t done a hunt train, or rp fan events before
HA HA HA HA.
I was just watching a streamer trying to do the Nier Raids for the first time, when all of a sudden a hunt train of 70 people at least, if not much more, just swoop in and kill this random hunt mob over by the cliff edge. When this game has active hunts people want, it REALLY has active hunts lmao. Remember even one time where I stumbled upon an annual pride parade. Didn't stick around, just got in line confused for a moment and flew off, but there was at least 150 players partaking in it excluding myself. And apparently the annual Halloween one (which I sadly didn't have a sub for due to money issues) was even bigger according to the guy who hosted it on the Bryn cord. And I don't need to explain the recent community welcome parties for streamers. Can certainly agree that when there's specific things set up, hundreds will flock to specific locations together. And it's normally amazing when it happens. Just, he's right that outside of very specific non-hardcore endgame content, most won't experience this.
Hunt trains are pretty massive though.
I just disagree. Genres shift and morph over time based on public perception and you're trying to take an overly literal approach when defining the genre. Despite you saying we don't consider WoW to be that massive anymore I'd expect most people would still classify WoW as an MMORPG. Thus, using your own argument, FF14 is an MMORPG.
And they will keep continuing to shift until they end up describing a four-player MMO...like they've already done
I disagree with your premise in general. But you are free to have your opinion.
I don't think the definition between mmorpg and morpg is defined by how grouping works.
I disagree with this because I've gone to Limsa literally ever and I've done things like Leap of Faith during Make it Rain. Tons of players everywhere, impromptu cliques, people just hanging out having fun, etc. It's a living breathing community that is large and at your fingertips anytime you want to go out and meet some new people in the world. That is the very essence of an MMO to me.
The lack of social interdependance for most of the game & lobby based gameplay due to instanced, automated groupfinders is what makes this game feel more like a lobby based game than a MMORPG.
@@Tetsu9701 Literally nobody thinks the game feels like a lobby based game (because it isn’t). Explain “lack of social interdependence” please. Just because you can use a group matching tool doesn’t mean you have to. Hell, you can choose to RP walk to the dungeon entrance if you want to. None of what you are saying means anything to the hundreds of people socializing, throwing concerts and dance parties, doing hunt trains, etc. And let’s not ignore all the content that uses the party finder, which people use to recruit others to do activities (it’s not automated…people join manually and have to interact).
@@Ryotsu2112 You don’t have to, but you will. If you don’t you're not taking advantage of the features available and are literally behind the curve. It’s been explained before, if it’s there and makes the jobs easier/more efficient you’d be a fool not to use it. That’s just how it works. If you see a shovel and a spoon in front of you, which one are you going to use to dig a hole, a shovel, as would I or 99% of people. Hence you lose the social interdependency where you need to reach out and talk to people throughout the entirety of your journey. Why would I talk to anyone if the matchmaking is automated and the dungeon is a cakewalk? Now if there were no group finder, one would need to reach out and talk to people, and if the entire journey was difficult you would be communicating with your group through the entire journey, not just uber end game content.
Edit: Regarding it feeling like a lobby-based system, you don’t need to travel to the dungeon/raid, rather you sit just open up your menu and queue up and you're there. I can barely remember where the dungeon entrances are in XIV, compared to older games I knew where exactly each camp spot was, what travel modes I need to take and how to get there. It felt like a real world that needed to be traversed, not just warped thru.
@@Ryotsu2112 Is that a good enough explanation?
Man, i love your videos but this constant fixation on arbitrary terminology is just... pointless. Honestly, players couldn't care less about this, and that's coming from an enthusiast of the genre for over 16 years who have played most MMORPGs. Whenever you start ranting about MORPGs in a video i just roll my eyes and think "here we go again".
I don't mean any of this as an insult, just feedback from a long time fan of your work and the genre.
You know I love you but this .. is an utterly pointless exercise in semantics. Anyone who cares about this distinction .. shouldn't.
I played the game on JP datacenter and it's definitely was that way, felt like everyone was an npc that looks somewhat like me, It's was very populated but somehow felt cut off, people just doing their stuffs, and that's about it
21:35 Hang on, you totally can play early game content with your friends. You really need to elaborate on this or you're really misinforming people. What about the game's design prevented you, and what was it you were trying to do? The only limitations are that some quest related duties are single player instances, and other players can't attack overworld enemies that were spawned specifically for you via a quest. They can actually heal you in the latter case.
Are we talking prior to Sastasha, ie. pre-dungeon content, or is it related to free trial limitations on forming parties?
actually outside levequest mobs, you can kill other peoples quest mobs.
Finally someone playing and loving FFXIV 1.0! I thought I was the only player on the entire earth to think that. I even upgraded my PC to be able to play that game. I have spent all my part-time job money just to afford it all. I loved the story telling, rhytmic combat and the atmosphere. It is the only game where I spent walking through the city to complete the quests, because there was always something or someone interesting to look at. I like post ARR version too, but I haven't played it as much unfortunately.
Hard disagree on this, I get what you're trying to say but citing limited numbers of people in a zone as evidence that 14 is MORPG is wrong. Consider that fact that when ARR was launch the game was design with PS3 hardware in mind, and even when it was drop 14 is still supported on base PS4.
Oh man I was hoping you were gonna say Guild Wars 1! I love this game, my first online game and a game that I still play to this day so many years later. It's largely been brushed under the rug but is such an important game in the grand scheme of things! So so so glad you feel this way
I appreciate the stance this video is trying to take, but I feel like focusing on the specific definition of the word "massive" isn't the way to go. Many genre labels have evolved to represent something at least a little different from what the term originally more directly defined. "RPG" itself is an example; it's far less about "playing a role" than it is about "leveling up and stat increases", and most people see it that way these days.
It is very annoying from a linguistic point of view when this happens, but it's not like we can meaningfully control the colloquialisms people choose to adopt. I believe you'd find many fans of "classic" MMORPGs are less concerned about the definition of the size of the player base, and more concerned about the feeling of world and community the game provides.
Classic MMORPGs like Everquest often weren't any more "massive" than their modern counterparts, but the way the worlds were constructed and the way the players were outright forced to socialize and interact imparted that feeling of a living, breathing virtual world. These worlds were large, mysterious, and most of all, dangerous. The already large worlds felt even larger because of the danger of travelling them. You couldn't quest alone most of the time, you had to form an adventuring party to get things done, forcing you to meet new people all the time. All of that merged into a singular feeling of world and community that I think classic MMORPG fans continue to try and chase to this day. That feeling doesn't require any specific number to define "massive", it just requires a specific kind of illusion of it.
Vanilla WoW is the "missing link" between classic MMORPGs and the more single-player-focused experience we have today. It took EQ's formula and made it more solo-friendly, and then over time the danger of world and the demands for socialization were reduced to a broken facsimile of what an MMORPG was. I don't think the popular style today is bad, but it's not what the classic fans want and absolutely should be thought as something different, but the word "massive" has very little to do with it. I don't have any clue what that name or label should be, but what I do know is that as someone who craves that social experience within a large and dangerous world, today's MMORPG offerings are not at all what I am looking for.
I think the biggest counter-argument to this idea is demonstrated in this video itself - its so hard to tell when you are saying "MORPG" vs when you are saying "MMORPG". That isn't a trivial problem from a marketing standpoint.
ORPG also sounds meh to be fair
Massive to me always meant the size of the content and world. You could make a game with 1 tiny map and put 1000 players on it and I wouldn't consider that massive. You can get through XIV's msq without much interaction, true but a lot of content does require that you interact. You will never get the best glam solo. You won't be able to clear the toughest raids without some form of communication. You can form parties to clear dungeon quests without the duty finder. I guess it's just hard for me not to consider FFXIV massive with the enormous story, content, world and my screen being filled with players almost everywhere I go.
I believe a MMO should require social interdepence & interaction all through out the journey, not just end game. The inclusion of a auto-grouping system really kills social interdepence, (not interaction), hence making it so many players don't bother interacting with one another as there is no need.
@@Tetsu9701 I won't disagree with your main point. I see this as much more of a player choice thing. FCs are always recruiting and advertising parties, events and countless activities. It's not just endgame. Thank you for the response. Cheers!
@@Tetsu9701 may I also add I was talking about what massive means to me. Massive is such a broad term. No pun intended ^_^
I totally agree, Final Fantasy 14 for me is the perfect blend of an RPG incorporating Online elements. From the beginning, FF14 wants you to play the main scenario and the only times you are required to find a party of other people is when you do dungeons, raids, and trials. Though even this seems to be pushed back with the latest Shadowbringers with Trusts.
I have to agree 100% with you that the reason FFXIV is doing so well is Yoshi-P and the development team. They don't make excuses, they tell people what's going on and why it's happening, and the feel is that we're being treated like adults who have the capacity to understand and react in a mature way when we have the information.
That being said, I must respectfully disagree with the rest of the video. It feels like you're trying to redefine something that doesn't need redefinition. We already have terms - 'themepark' and 'sandbox' - that define an MMO with a focus on instanced content and an MMO with a focus on open world content respectively. I don't believe that any game where you can run through an area and pass hundreds of people on just one server doesn't count as 'massive'. The game make not force you to interact with them, but they're there, and you do interact, even if its just passively running past a Lalafel orchestra or reading the shout chat.
The term MORPG would excellent for games like Ark: Survival Evolved where you have a hard limit of 64 people on the entire server.
Why? When MORPGs were capable of hundreds? That's why the massive moniker is just marketing. MUDs also had hundreds of players. Redefine sounds genuinely as far away from what I'm doing as possible...when the entire video is outlining games have already existed NOT called MMOs and supported by the devs which people just ignore for some reason like PSO. The literal creator of the game says it's not an MMO, it's called an ORPG. So what am I redefining?
Yoshi P redefined the term himself rofl
I have a few issues with this take. The first is that the term ISN'T better for the game for a simple reason: it's not in wide use. As much as I personally hate linguistic inaccuracies and prefer precision, if a term isn't widely used - even if it existed before - it can be harmful when using it as a marketing tool. Just because MORPG WAS used at one point doesn't mean it's suddenly the right one to use as a descriptor in the current environment. Get MORPG into a wider lexicon and it could fit better, but until then, the marketable term will be MMORPG. By claiming it is an MORPG instead, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse - the term needs to have meaning outside this viewpoint (to put it simply, before clicking, I wasn't sure which M you were planning to take out; there's an argument that it's massive without being multiplayer, since there IS so much that can be done solo).
The second issue is that you're defining it by its state and status, but ignoring that the things you define ARE still there, they're just ignored under most circumstances by the larger player base. You brought up FATEs getting Zerg Rushed, but that's in part due to the lag between game difficulty and players. After killing a ton of FATEs in a given zone for memories or to raise my FATE rating in the ShB areas, I've noticed how later FATEs got harder - even in the span of thirty minutes or an hour, the same ones would repeat but be tougher than before. The Odin fate is similar - his difficulty scales based on how fast he's been beaten recently, with him being way easier if it's been a while and way harder if he's been thrashed a few times in the last few pops. If the content was regularly engaged, it'd feel way harder, and require more engagement to beat. The core of the MMO is still there, and it's the core of the game; the bulk of the content may be instanced, and you might be able to get through the game without engaging other players, but that doesn't stop the game from being Massive overall.
Finally, I also would point out that this MMO core keeps getting revitalized, with content such as Bozja and Eureka showing those larger zone designs that require interaction. While Eureka isn't super popular there's almost always an instance up with plenty of players. Bozja is almost ALWAYS hopping, with multiple instances per data center, often with dozens of players and challenges built for 48-person groups to tackle (though they can scale to smaller sizes) often popping simultaneously (thus meaning zone design should allow for minimum 96 players per instance). This creates a situation where you claim the game is an "MORPG" but have situations that seem to meet your MMORPG criteria (using your "sub-24 person dungeons" as a break point). Again, it's not the majority of the content, but it's still there in a game that supports other MMO group sizes in the overworld. It then comes down to design versus execution, and what you choose to prioritize in the definition.
While personally I don't have a problem with people making videos about FFXIV vs WoW for the views because it's all the rage this past month, I do think some of these arguments are definitely what I would rate as 'reaching'.
It's like the feeling I got that one time someone tried to argue to me that tomatoes should be considered as vegetable rather than fruit. Like, the mental gymnastics required to get to that point just makes me go, "Why are you even trying to make this a thing?"
It's funny when I actually list reasons and show examples for why it's problematic to do it this way incredibly pedantic and childish people like you make a post completely ignoring that while simultaneously trying to tell me that it's pointless to argue. Or that I'm being pedantic. What a bizarre response.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss Oh? So you're allowed to have an opinion about the game, but when I offer my own opinion about your video, I'm being pedantic and childish?
Looking real mature there, chief.
I still don't understand how WoW has stayed so popular. The gameplay is subpar, you have to pay monthly to play said game, and you buy expansions that you lose access to if you don't keep paying.
"Yoshi-P previous MMO experience comes from DQX (...)" Sure as a Dev but he's an mmo player from long time. He played Ultima Online and EQ back in the days, so no his "previous mmo experience" isn't just DQX. If you wanted to say as a dev then fine but then say it since this video is all about people not using the right terms. Also you should check some of the almost daily hunt train for example, or the Rebuild of Ishgard, there were massive event in which all server had to work to complete. While I agree that most content is limited in players numbers that's doesn't make the world less massive, we just need to look at some RP event like the one I saw on YT yesterday, thousand of people wainting in line for going into a villa-turned club like real life. Like you said "Massive" definition evolve with the technology like text based games who back in the days could already take care of hundreds if not thousands of players so from that POV, No 3D game should never had been called MMO from the start, since the tech today for a text game is millions of players at the same time. It depends on the context. From what I can understand your definition of MMO is "Content with Hundreds of Players at the same time for the same objective". The thing is people don't have the time or the motivation to be there at the same time as the other, that's also an evolution of the time, games evolve, technology evolve, gamers evolve the definitions has to evolve too and it's for the people thinking by themselves not just by "MMORPG" but more like is it 2D ? 3D ? The scale of the massive will be different. FFXIV V1 wanted to do the massive on all the faces, and that was one of it's downfall (I liked V1 but I could not play it right since my computer wasn't NASA powered, and not being able to be part of the 7th Umbral Calamity made me really mad). I'll acknowledge your definition of an MMO and I really see what you say but for me FF14, even now, is still an MMO but where I'm 100% with you is PSO, PSO ISN'T A MMO, I call it a Coop-RPG (because today it's really rare to play with more than 1 person on the same computer without online involved) and I always have. Nothing is persistent except for the character so you can't call it a MMO. I hope this comment doesn't sound too aggressive, I'm not a native english speaker. TLDR; I understand your POV, but it's not mine x)
I disagree. I feel like you are just splitting hairs. MMORPGs as a genre can be split down through subgenres with how they were designed and implemented. While you nail down whats a MMORPG you emphasize the difference in design of the systems there is still similarities in its roots. Knowing which systems work for what is what really is important.
While I agree that developers/players should be aware of the differences to build a better system for the game. Distancing themselves from the original term is just too much.
I just wanted to add 2 cents. The Genre is called MMORPG. it is a combination of the term Massively multiplayer Online. and Role Playing Game. MMO is a category you can add to any video game really that sports a wide audience, that all play with each other on the internet.. While RPG is a genre of game that is you know a RPG, exploring, fighting, story, loot, ect. FF14 fits both criteria. I know a lot of people don't expect MMORPGs to focus on story. There is however nothing wrong with a story focused MMORPG. And personally I don't think a entirely new Genre title needs to be invented. Cause it would kinda just spit on the face of what MMORPG even means.
Massively multiplayer online role playing game.
Can be argued that since most of 14s content is done in Instance based gameplay that its not massively multiplayer online. But I argue that MMO fits 14 a lot. You have countless of people thousands millions of people who play this game. You'll always be bound to meet new people. Even Bungie has used the term MMO to describe Destiny 2. And that game is instance based content. But ya I just personally feel we don't need a new terminology or Genre term. Instead I personally feel people should be open to view Genre terms more loosely. Like MMO, or MMORPG.
Gameplay wise the game is more of a lobby based online RPG. The 'massively part only exists when you are doing social events. What FFXIV does offer is a big shared space for players to enjoy with others, in a relaxing way.
It's genius really
This is a lot of semantics to fabricate an argument and discussion that doesn't need to exist. I can go practically anywhere in the game and see 50+ people running around and kill a world boss with them. I can physically gather 8 people and do a raid. It's an MMO. You cannot progress in the game without playing with other people in at least groups of 4, but in the crystal tower's case, 24 people. Thats an MMO. No offense, but the video comes across as attempting to say something enlightening about a hot topic because all the interesting/obvious things have been said already considering ffxiv's sudden burst in popularity. The critiques dont hold up either. The instance design isn't about "MORPG" sentiments from the devs, its about console limitations. If they could make it fully open world, they would.
I feel that FF14 is still an MMORPG. While it does have a greater single player campaign than that of other MMOs, at its core, it's an MMO and there's really no need to distinguish it as its own separate genre. This attempt to rebrand FF14 as something different feels like how League of Legends was trying to distance itself from DotA by using the term Multiplayer Online Battle Arena (MOBA) to describe its game. But instead, it simply became what the entire subcategory of games that LoL and DotA became over the years. FF14 as a whole is still built on the foundations of an MMO and that's what makes it an MMO, regardless of how that content is delivered. They just happen to choose to have instanced bosses over world bosses. That is also the reason why instanced content like Closers and Soulworker, which attempt to brand themselves as action games, are still considered as MMOs.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
This is just unnecessary hairsplitting and semantics. FF14 is a mmorpg. And it's a mmorpg by every logical definition. The thing, that is imo not a mmo, but classified as a mmo by many players is destiny. It's just hubs and then some random poeple in the open world. not the actual player base.
As much as I recognize the effort put in it and the information condensing, I find this video to be so much longer that it needed to be for very little information in the end
Interesting you say that but don't contribute to the discussion. Thanks for your contribution as well.
@@nerdSlayerstudioss The fact that I don't contribute to the discussion has nothing to do with my remark on the form of the video but whatever, take it as a meaningless critcism if you want
cheers
To me FFXIV is an MMO from top to bottom, the game feels massive, not only in cities and spots like the entrance to the palace of the dead but in almost everything!
PVP matches with 72 people feels massive, Bozja with a huge amount of people feels massive, caravans to kill hunts (Basically world bosses) feels massive, even in fate bosses (litterally world bosses) like Odin in gridania feels massive, the constant traffic of people in the housing system, be an FC house or just roaming some plots feels massive, the constant talking and interaction on chat feels massive, the amount of FCS and FCS meetups feels massive, even wedding parties in the game feels massive with the amount of player that is in the place.
To me it is an MMO, just because a lot of the main content is meant for 4/8 people doesn't mean the game is not massive, it's just my opinion, good video though, I'm a huge fan!
I love how all the truly "Massive" Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games we're the ones from the '90s that almost no one played.
My own WoW experience started early in Wrath. Between December and April I leveled to 80 - probably 98% of the time solo questing. I rarely saw other players outside of Stormwind or Ironforge because most people were in Dalaran and Northrend.
That is one of the fundamental problems with MMORPGs - people tend to spend most of their time in high-level zones. Leveling alts does help but not that much. FFXIV tends to combat slightly with the Duty Finder scaling and secondary job leveling but it still exists.
I thought the argument made was interesting but not especially compelling - it just sounds like something a whiny Meridian 59 or Ultima Online player would say.
this might be the most concisely chad comment ive read for this video so far
@@unique_mushroom if you haven't seen Jesse Cox's video on why FFXIV is an RPGMMO I would recommend it ua-cam.com/video/5T-mcLYBnKc/v-deo.html
Everquest was insanely popular and is the base for classic wow
@@rorschachozymandias2821 "By the end of 2004 the title's lifetime sales exceeded 3 million copies worldwide and reached an active subscriber peak of 550,000." - Wikipedia
Which means it doesn't qualify for this list en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-played_video_games_by_player_count
It was popular for the time, though.
What? FF14 doesn't combat this issue AT ALL. In fact, it encourages it. The lack of alts means no one ever has to visit maps again after they have quested through them the first time and the lack of interesting maps or locations with things going on in them means even less people want to visit those maps again for any reason outside of necessity (which really doesn't exist). Especially when there are so many better ways to grind secondary classes that don't involve going back to low level areas. There is no world where alts don't help this problem more than FF14's systems do.
Duty Finder is just a way to force people together, it's not even so much as a bandage to try to fix the problem, it only makes the issue more glaringly obvious. When 95% of your endgame content is running daily roulettes and raiding, and that's solely where your playerbase resides, the game just feels desolate and lonely. It may not be that way now, but from Heavensward up to the hemorraging of WoW subs, it definitely felt this way, which is something I NEVER felt in WoW. I played for even longer during the same period of time, through WotLK, completely countering your so-called experience. Places outside of Northrend were still booming during the first half of WotLK. In fact, there was still plenty of TBC that was still very well populated (minus Nagrand.) Your experience goes against what I and all of the friends I played with experienced. Not saying your experience isn't valid and that this problem doesn't exist in MMOs because it certainly does, but to think that it's not worse in FF14 is insanity and to think that your anecdotal experience makes a point here is a mistake when others experienced the opposite.
Also, trying to compare modern metrics to the late 90s and early 2000s? Saying "almost nobody played" shows you don't understand how player trends and time progresses. Also someone states that Everquest was extremely popular and your counter was... posting a link to "most played games" like that makes a valid point at all? Are you even trying to make sense? Do you understand the concept of accessibility and the how gaming became mainstream? How internet speeds changed when it came to online gaming and how that restricted people from playing? Trying to compare a playerbase from 20 years ago when accessibility was low and 500k was a very high number to a playerbase of today where millions is still "meh" is very nearly entering false equivalency.
Your first post was extremely cocky and condescending and then you ruined the validity of the points you DID have by using half-baked or completely invalid logic.
i think this is exactly why i felt so comfortable playing ffxiv as my first "mmo." I used to have next to no friends and be super reserved. I hated playing with other people, and still do to some extent. still, there was something that drew me to ffxiv. i started playing it and was surprised that i wasn't pressured at all into interacting with other people. I got through all of shadowbringers with only the required amount of player interaction, which isn't a lot aside from the polite "hello" and "tyfp" when entering and leaving a duty. It felt so nice, like I was the one in charge of my multiplayer experience.
While I personally also agree that there are certain things in many a "mmo" that are not really in the spirit of "mmo" I think the main argument being boiling down to "you can play the game with a group finder and not have to chat" a weaker one. If anything, you're questioning the "RP" part of the equation there and not the massive nature of the player structuring. Also, while going for Savage and Extreme content you're going to do a lot of talking, would that re-qualify it? --- If this question makes no sense... that's because the initial qualifier makes no sense.
"A strong number of players wish to limit the number of players on screen, on console"... Yea because the PS4 version runs at like sub-30 fps in Limsa if you don't lower the players displayed. It's not that they don't wish other players to be there, it's because they'd like their PS4 not to become a jet-engine.
I feel like there are a good number of open world things in FF14 that benefit from a big number of players, ranging from hunt-trains to fate-trains to the relic areas that are "just" 144 players. The relic area grinds are some of the most MMO feeling areas there are, running around with people you don't know helping eachother towards a common goal... idk.
In major lines I do agree certain games shouldn't be considered MMORPGs that are, I feel like this opinion piece just really doesn't do a good job at putting forward strong arguments, since they all essentially boil down to; A game cannot be an MMORPG if there is a group finder or if there are party-limited instances. With that basis, I'd be curious what would still qualify as MMORPG. It just seems like pointless gatekeeping for the sake of it.
My thoughts exactly, if the argument had been "FFXIV is more a MMOG than an MMORPG" I think it would be a bit easier to justify. But to say the biggest MMORPG isn't "Massive" while pointing to social issues he experienced doesn't mean the game isn't Massive. Not to mention, the social issues he brought up are completely negated when you login to a city and see thousands of players wandering around, chatting, playing or listening to music performed by player Bards, hosting game events at their player housing, etc. His argument comes across as someone who is extremely anti-social and passively complains that they feel isolated from the world when hundreds of people are trying to engage with him and everyone else.
"A game cannot be an MMORPG if there is a group finder or if there are party-limited instances." YUP
It's not even an RPG since you can't make any decisions for your character other then which weapon to equip.
And which race and gender. And what appearance. And which glamour. And which job to level. And which crafter and gatherer to level. And if you even want to get into those. And which mounts to collect. And which achievements to do. And whether you want to get rich in gil or nah. And whether you want to raid. And whether you want to role play. And... Yeah. Definitely not an RPG.
Gender, race, story dialogue, glamor, jobs, actual role-playing, etc. How is is not an rpg lmao
NIce video, though with a few mistakes which is a shame. I see your point on why you say has a less massive 'feeling' though I don't think that changes what it actually is.
I got in sooooo much trouble for the AOL bill one month playing NWN. I logged nearly 200 hours in one billing cycle… you only got 20 hours per month back then and overage was per hour >_
Wait does that mean Wow is a Speedrun-MMO? and not a MMORPG? becuase everyone just speed run WoW to the end by auto skipping text (most using Zygor) and then once they get to end game, most don't even know why they are fighting the boss, but they just know they want to kill the boss as quick as possible? I mean how many WoW players even know what the hell is going on in Shadowloand anyways.
Not even the writers know what's going on in SL. Lol
Eh, I don't know about this one. Since the beginning people have been fussing over what makes an MMORPG an MMORPG and I have seen so many subjective assessments that I have just stopped caring. Grouping becomes forced in ff14 in for completing story dungeons, which is somewhat rare these days. Compared to GW2 where I felt no urge to do anything with anyone because it wasn't encouraged nor required to meaningfully progress. FF14's biggest issue is the overworld needs to be revitalized if not revamped and dungeons need another difficulty tier if anything. Arguably the only single player MMOs out there to me are ESO and BDO as you have to go well out of your way to have any meaningful community engagement with those games.
FF14 already has channels... Its just a pain to switch to a different channel in a zone because you have to leave the zone to an adjacent one and re-enter and if there are multiple channels for that zone it will prompt you to choose the one you want. You normally only see this in areas with a train coming through =)
I still don't see why FFXIV can't be called an MMORPG. Or why it's better for me to think of it as an MORPG. It's a game that I love to play. Idc what it's called. So long as I get good content.
Looks like I really don’t like mmos then
I thought MMORPG stood for Many Men Online Roleplaying Girls?
21:33 I wish you had explained why you couldn't exactly.
Boy im starting to feel the V-tubers craze running its course ff14 style....... so many years many of you ignored ff14 now its all the rage and the hip new kids are joining....ironic isnt it.
FF14 is more of an MMO than WoW is. Just the fact that leveling has to be done by exploring the world and seeing other players. You have to be introduced to the story and buildup to every dungeon before the story makes you find a group for them. In wow you literally level by unlocking access to dungeon finder after 30mins of starter quests, walk into a city and spam queue random dungeons. Trying to level by questing, you are most likely to never see another player in the world before the newest expansion.
This explains alot why I loved and played dragons dogma online through its entire life cycle from launch.
Did so many things that mmos dont usually do.
I still believe FF14 and WOW are MMOs despite being set to have the mass part in lobbies it’s still a massive amount of people interacting in an area. An MORPG would be some thing more like Monster Hunter where even the hubs limit to small amounts of players and limited interaction but still being able to play together online. Another examples MORPG could Dark Souls with the invading mechanic. The Party Finder feature is just a smoother version of creating raid groups, people still say hi to each other, talk, and help. I believe the Massive part of MMO comes not from the amount of players within a given area but the level of interactivity that occurs within its community, just because those spaces get instanced doesn’t decrease them since within those spaces interactivity happens regularly (like people asking for rezzes or hordes of people trying to pet someone’s minion). You also completely ignored Fates which are content meant to be done by random people just coming by that yeah it’s possible to do by yourself but I’ll never say no to help from that.
I think MORPG is a horrible term btw. Main reason is that for the laymen, there will be completely no difference between MMORPG and MORPG. I think MORPG needs a new name, just like we retired from using the term MUD in favor of MMORPG.
Then ORPG it is I guess
This video is just you trying to define what you think an MMO is then saying dungeons and some raids have smaller groups so it's not massive. I don't think even by your definition FFXIV would just stop being a MMORPG just because it primary content isn't above arbitrary number of people interacting. What make a "real" massive experience is it over 20 players or maybe 40 how about 100? If a player feels that the world they are playing in is massive then of course they will use the word that is engraved into gaming culture to discribe that experience which is why for me FFXIV IS a MMORPG
In a few ways XIV feels kinda like how Guild Wars used to, which.. I enjoy, after it gets going (which I'd say happens around lvl 35 in the MSQ). I wish it had more character play customisation though, like a talent system or like GW1 used to (..okay maybe not THAT customisable probably, but still).
Ay you talked about it, nice. I really wanna play through it again with people tbh, solo with heroes just doesn't really do it for me.
well edited but i don't think trying to change the genre of a game just because you feel like it will make it true, if ffxiv is not a MMO then MMOs are not a thing period
How is it changing the genre of a game, when the main developer thinks a four person Co op game is an MMO by the same logic? Why should I take his genre tagging seriously? He literally says in this video, on screen that true MMOs are UO and EVE...so he kind of agrees with me but chose to use the term MMO while PSO didn't clearly...hence why I outlined that in this video. People can try to paint it like I'm redefining or changing a genre, in reality I'm asking if it's properly placed in the first place.
This is one weird as hell take on FFXIV. Not only did you get some things completely wrong(the server limits have consistantly increased NOT decreased)...but you also left out so many aspects of massive-play. Frontlines in PvP are 72 player battles. Hunts routinely have masses of 100+ people running around.
I mean, sure. If you leave out all the examples of a massive amount of players doing things together then yeah...it isn't very massive. But you are cherry-picking what you think of as massive or not and what you seemingly count as actual content. I routinely see more people together in one place on FFXIV than I do on WoW. I don't have a clue how you came to the exact opposite conclusion.
I mentioned front lines. I mentioned hunts and fates and how buggy and hated they are. You are not at all genuine with this comment, please watch the actual video.
I don’t play a lot of mmo, but I started 14 some time ago and the difference is other mmo forces you to play more while ff14 makes you want to. guess which one works.
I mean have you been to Limsa?
Then again there's a new game in Steam early access called Book of Travels. It introduces the concept of TMORPG (Tiny Multiplayer Online RPG)...with limit of only about 7 players per server...
I disagree because of mainly 2 reasons
1. Your argument is mainly based on the definition that the only thing that has to be 'Massive" is the Player Group Size. Would a game that works exclusively through lobby-matchmaking, with RPG mechanics (I'm imagining an Overwatch or even DOTA-Style game with more long term player progression) also be an MORPG? I would argue that's still a far cry from what FFXIV and even WoW and SWTOR are. The massiveness of the game world, which is shared with other players, is at least as much a defining factor.
2. Even if you accept that group size is the defining factor, then I'd still argue that FFXIV would qualify. The Bozjan Southern Front is a very important part of Shadowbringers endgame. It is instanced, but designed to feel like part of the open world (seeing how FFXIV is basically wholly instanced, it basically is). The zone's gameplay defined by FATEs, semi-instanced Bosses (48 max players), semi-instanced solo bosses (with rewards for spectators if the player is successful) and a 48 man and 24 man raid. Yes, much of this content does scale down if there are fewer players. But I believe that is just future proofing for when the content becomes obsolete (from an 'current expansion player' point of view).
DDO I guess was another shot on the MORPG then, funny how GW2 kinda became a bit more massive and left the mark of it's original behind while others tried to get it done in a more refined way
Final Fantasy XIV suffers from the same problem as modern WoW and it's the same reason people were so eager for classic.
When you have no reliance on the community and can do 90% of things solo, it removes a huge social aspect. This takes away the MMO feeling and ultimately kills a great thing that MMOs used to provide. There is duty finder but as with WoW, the social aspect of random groups is pretty minimal.
I've done the FFXIV story and it's really amazing, but playing it outside of that just feels a little dull for the above reason.
On a positive note though, in my experience the FF community I've seen in game are super helpful and friendly. Which is nice 😄
The lack of social interdependance (not interaction) is what really made MMOs back in the day. Auto group finders & lack of challenge until end game really killed that style of MMO. Even the loss of class identity makes it so your just a peg in a hole. I know why they did it. Social interdependence & not having an automated group finder makes short game sessions not possible & solo players quit. Lack of class identity makes it so every class is viable, essentially making it easier to play, driving more sales/subs/players logins etc.
I have mostly played FF14 only recently and casually. It's something different and familiar at the same time being both wow and final fantasy. Also never expected to know so many people want to role play as catboys/catgirls and street musicians.
"A Place To Call Home" starts playing and i need to physically restrain myself for liking something for something unrelated to the content, lol.
So after watching the entire video, and fighting myself from stopping and fervently disagreeing with you over and over, I can say I still disagree with you. I feel your belief that 2 of the only 3 subscription based MMORPGs are not MMORPGs is extremely flawed. Your explanation for it feels like a very far fetched attempt to rationalize removing the label, for the sake of removing the label. I also feel like you are making things up when it comes to FFXIV 1.0 was changed to be more like the WoW formula. The problem that statement is 1.0 had all of the staple "WoW" formula aspects, aka the MMORPG genre staples..., in the game as 2.0 did.
Side note, personally I loved ARR's story more than the rest. Not that the rest of the expansion were bad, though I found myself getting bored at times in Stormblood, and Heavensward is absolutely amazing with the story. The sheer amount of amazing story in ARR keeps it at the top. Sucks that we wont ever get that much content in any expansions moving forward because the catch up drag of people trying to rush through story content will lead to many complaints...damn story skippers.
Oof 10's the favored one? 6 (FF3 when I first touched it on SNES) is still my #1 all time greatest RPG. As for the Massive thing - it'd have to be well over a hundred able to play at the same time on the same server/instance, which is why I argue so much against Survival/Builder games being labeled an MMORPG (i.e. ARK, 7 Days to Die, etc.) Kills me to hear people call private servers for these games with a max player capacity of 70, 100, or even 150 be labeled as MMORPGs. Not to mention the fact that if those private servers did fill up to their 150 limit for that map the game would have so much lag it would be unplayable and ruin the experience for all, even if it would still meet the basic criteria to be considered Massive.
Appreciate you taking the time to type this up, disagreement or not. And watching my video fully through. Be around to watch me play FFXIV on stream when the new xpac launches, take care!
@@nerdSlayerstudioss Appreciate you accepting other people's differing opinions without getting mad. It's a rare thing to see. FF6 still the best FF game though :P
I consider 15000 to 20000 people on 1 server to be massive (Like EVE Online, EVE Online, and EVE Online), even more massive would be 30000 to 100000
While I understand where you're coming from for the early game and not being able to play with friends from the start, this isn't entirely true. It's not impossible, just more arduous than most other games for sure (especially buying the game and even logging in the first time is a trial and a half).
But if you wanted to play with friends from the start, just make sure your class starting zones are the same. Otherwise, the game is assuming you're new to the 'type of game' and will "gate" you until ~level 15 while you learn how the game works.
Now if you're talking about free trial and not being able to group, I think that's somewhat of a different discussion. I'm not completely disagreeing with you here (as it can feel hard/isn't possible until you can access the other zones depending on class selection), just pointing out it's a bit of a misrepresentation without some more context.
An MORPG is the kind of game I want to make. A game you can play by yourself, with your friends, or the people you meet in the hubs.
Of the big trio WOW, FFXIV and ESO, ESO is certainly the less Massive Oline of all, I can't say how many times I tought that there were like 8 players in a world boss but actually were like 4 with companions >.>
I...feel the exact opposite way. FFXIV is packed in a couple of cities but other than that it feels barren and sparse out in the world. Whereas ESO has a ton of people in major cities AND a bunch out in the world, even in content that's several years old. I haven't played WoW in years so I can't compare, but ESO is definitely the most 'alive' mmo out there right now.
@@bargaintuesday812 I think this is more down to the world-level-scaling that ESO supports, always allowing people to quest wherever they haven't cleared yet, and people can do whatever in any order populating any part of the world with the mega-world instancing.
Being such a big Final Fantasy fan, did you ever play Dirge of Cerberus for the PS2?
I'd love to see you do a series on death of an expansion for WoW.
Even during their so called high point, I never liked blizzard and have always felt that they just creating gameplay loops that form habits rather than actually entertain. While I really wish the circumstances were different given how many people had to suffer for it but I can't help but be a bit happy watching them finally fall from grace over the last few years.
6:26... No nerdSlayer. I beg to differ. MMORPG stands for Many man online role playing girls. Such was the way it was. Such is the way it is. Such is the way it will always be.
The only thing I disagree with is the less people option it would feel way to empty its more of a feeling I have than and objective statement.