What is reality and what is truth? | J. Krishnamurti
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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What is reality and what is truth? | J. Krishnamurti
Extract from the fourth conversation with Buddhist scholars at Brockwood Park, 1979.
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They followed his train of thought until humans got mixed in. What he was saying is that humans, like lions, exist. That is truth. But when humans look at, talk about, or try to identify traits in other humans, that is reality. Reality is anything that has gone through the filter of human perception. When humans refer to other humans, other humans are filtered through our understandings, through our bias. In -that- regard, humans are reality, and not truth.
Reality is that which undergoes change in time. Truth is unchangeable, beyond time.
@@shashikantshukla9303how Can anything not be in time? If something is not in time it's not dynamic, hence it's dead. Or is there some kind of dynamic not of time?
@@7Denial7nothingness is the ultimate truth
Every human being has that possibiliy of be in truth
Leaving behind all human Perceptions of reality to get to the Truth
The video ended with an amazing statement from the master. A perfect ending.
Everything in this world is truth. And the reality is how we see the world.
An excellent explanation reality and how it is different from truth
His conversation would not be possible without thought.
Silence is the language of God, all others are poor translations -Rumi
I wondered what it would be like to meet K in private. As one went into it, one found that there would be no words. Everything would be transmitted in the deafening silence. One would possibly even laugh uncontrollably. Anything created by thought is like eating the menu instead of the real thing. The real thing just is and an actuality/fact. Thought enters with time (because before it entered it was timeless) and takes you on a detour away from actuality/fact/now. Not a doing but a not doing or cessation/stopping. It is so simple like relaxing a fist. An effortless effort. Otherwise, for most of us, we will just have to use the words and thought in time and sometimes (rarely) insight happens on the way to a conclusion. Don't believe the words contained in this message.
What you mean ?
Can we simplify it this way: reality is what we realize within our brain, and the actuality, the actual, is the factual, which we may never know. Since, all we know is what we realize, which is our reality. This is quite important since it applies to every area of life. This will help us to inquire in such a way which may lead to insight and direct perception into the factual.
There is that which is outside of us
Objective Reality
Then
Our perception of that =
Subjective Reality
How it can lead to insight?
Thanks for adding Indonesia subtitle
Its nice to see JK being challenged unreserved instead of just hearing him on a stage speak languishing on minor points until the audience agrees with his less fluid very stringent ideas and concepts
It is indeed better to see him challenged, surely, though I wouldn't call his "ideas" and "concepts" stringent, if I may so without sounding rude sir.
You might like his videos with David bohm, they're great too 😁
It's a very different setting when one sits at a podium and answers questions, and i think he speaks what he has seen through his own experience, so to him, it's what is happening, in other words it isn't an idea. Just like, the sun and the moon can't be labelled as stringent ideas, in the same way, many other psychological patterns in us (which K points out often) aren't stringent ideas, they are just happening and very easily observable. Take for instance me, who is replying to you through a comment to try to get you to see my point because I bet I'm attached to the image of K in my head, or rather the image of myself which I've made by gathering ideas in my head, which I want to preserve 🥲😃
Thanks
"Nature is not created by reality, the tiger, the deer and so on".
Then human body is also not created by realiity. It's nature. Right?
And if we agree that our bodies is nature, we see that our minds are natural. So, the thought is natural.
Thought is natural, of course! And by extension is also an expression of truth!
But the distinction in this video is:
The IMAGE that thought produces, is not on the same plane as the truth that created it.
The thought creates an image, that is reality.
This reality is a representation of truth, but is not truth itself.
Any image produced by thought is not truth. That is so, at least, per the definitions described in this video. If we use other definitions the arguments change quite drastically.
Thought doesn’t seem to be nature it seen to be condition
Reality is TRUTH! The TRUTH exists which cannot be spelt or explained. Because human brains are conditioned by past whatever there IS!
He was just trying to say, that you can not know the truth by means of thinking.
Nor by observing and existing, entertaining within man made structures.
@@PieterJanNotebaartthere's still parts of the world that isn't man made so you're wrong.
🙏🤍😌 reality in itself doesn't exist. It's an illusion🌌Truth is beyond and we can get it transcending reality created by ourselves and others🧿💜☀️
Many thanks, please share more videos like this, shortened videos
His definition of reality is rather peculiar and not the general one. It might confuse anybody who's not already familiar with his way of conversation.
This man is Genius.He is
trying to explain to the fool's
If you want something different You Gotta do something different.
More like BE something different.
I would give anything on Earth to understand what he is talking about in all his talks… I admire him but it seems like only few can access that « pathless truth »
Understanding implies that you have concluded. (Nothing wromg with this, this is how the mind works)
When you conclude you are in the realm of reality.
In this video Krishnamuri distinguishes between reality and truth. Truth being what IS and reality being what is perceived by the mind.
To know truth you must NOT understand it because then we are not in truth.
In other words: it can’t be done.
This is why Krishnamurti never tells anyone HOW to think, but rather only ever asks questions.
He doesn’t tell anyone HOW because as soon as there is a conclusion or an understanding, we have stepped away from what we are trying to actually perceive.
The whole thing is a paradox! Personally I can only laugh when I realise that these thoughts have no end, and by the nature of the mind I will never see truth. But in those moments I do feel a part of me perceive truth, a part of me that does not UNDERSTAND, but rather maybe, the part of me IS truth.
This is why many times we have heard Krishnamurti say:
“If you say “I have it!!”, you never had it.”
You cannot hold truth within you reality.
Hope this makes sense, at least the parts that are supposed to haha
Feel The Way to The Truth Inside
He says truth was not created by thought. Then thought in itself cannot apprehend truth. All thought doing is creating reality.
The Truth is an unseen Force Energy of Frequency Vibration. Nature is the Reality of Truth. The Wind is Force. It is unseen and Powerful. The Force is being created by the Frequency and Vibration of Truth. The Tree is rooted in Truth. The Tree is only the Manifestation of The Truth which it grows from.
….everything is thought. A tree is thought, there is nothing that is not thought. To think that something, anything, is outside of thought is just another thought. Absolutely everything is a product of our thinking, it all has the same source which is Reality. None of it is separate, how can it be ?
Is it a thought if there is nobody thinking?
How can a tree be a thought? Even if you don't think about a tree but the tree would still exist, so it's a truth
@@Liam-ke2hvif nobody is thinking then how did you know?
@@dudemayankjainHow can you know about the existence and non-existence of the tree without thinking about it's presence and absence respectively?
@@dudemayankjainif you don’t think of a tree the tree is still exist Indeed.
Not sure much was clarified here, as we need to define the words/terms of 'reality' and 'truth' first...the dive deeper. I know this was just a part of the discussion here, but good topic :)
This is what happens when you try to not use dictionary meanings of terms.
Yeah and "is truth measurable by words?"
Who’s the scholar on his left? The distinguished white guy (not the kid). He seemed to grasp what K was getting at the best.
Thought is antonymic with Tathata. Both are reality but they are irreal to one another.
Wow
What is reality what is truth .By just chance today I am reading in limits of thought about it funny .
God's creation is Truth. Man's Creation is Reality. Nature is True. Man cannot create Truth, it just exists. Man creates his or her own Reality. The only Reality that is shared is Truth. To stand in Truth is Natural Real. To reject Truth is Unnatural Not Real.
I just want to know about - and strangely it’s difficult to research - the reported relationship with Rosalind Rajagopal . Sexual secrecy and abortions ( abortions in the plural, not just one). Nowhere does anyone address this shocking revelation. It was a very difficult blow to his sincere follower , David Bohm. However, nobody comments. Can anyone comment? It’s very difficult for me to listen to Krishnamurti with any respect anymore.
Nobody is perfect on this earth. Only near perfect.
Bohm wasn't a follower. He was a friend. His response to hearing that was to come and discuss with K personally about it, like a mature adult. He wasn't part of the "follower guru" type way of thinking.
Also, she had no proof of anything that was occuring. She said she had letters between them which was never revealed.
Is there perhaps full video of the whole conversation?
ua-cam.com/video/HhVupJ6UERY/v-deo.html
I had to take a step back here my comment was getting too complex. Very confusing just because of the ruse where Jk says that reality is defined as only things created by thought. He does this to make them think about what reality really is for the sake of this argument.
It's asked by the man at 9:02
Can we reguard all that is apprehended through the senses and interpreted by the brain as reality.
Answered yes.
Hes trying to make them think for themselfs as he often does.
Asked 7:10 that means you dont take a tree as a reality ?
Answered i take it as a reality of course its a reality but its not created by thought ? Lol
You see his ruse. ?
This discussion is to separate truth and reality not to discuss what truth is. To look at what reality is.. finding truth in that realization.
Reality is all that is apprehended through the senses and interpreted by the brain. Nature creation and thought.
The only truth is this video is that nature being creation is outside of thought ? Yes ?
So truth is outside of thought. Eveything outside of the scope of thought is an absolute truth. Awareness love compassion creation nature thinking (not thought) humans. All absolute truths.
God is created by thought and so can't be a truth.
Creation is outside of thought and so it is a truth.
Definition of truth is -
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
Here's a hard one violence. Is violence a thought or a truth ? It's seen in nature. A bird kills a rat to survive. It's a violent kill. Is that a fact a reality. It is yes. The truth of violence is outside thought. Therfore it is a truth.
Is fear a truth ? Fear is inside thought so it cannot be a truth.
Is awareness beyond thought a truth ? It's outside thought so it must a truth. We are aware that we are thinking aware of the body.
Is the body a truth ? If we are outside of the body how can it be a truth.
It seems everything outside of the scope of thought can be regarded as a truth where as everything inside the scope of thought can be regarded as an illusion.
And everything inside the scope of creation and perception can be regarded as reality.
….everything is thought. A tree is thought, there is nothing that is not thought. To think that something, anything, is outside of thought is just another thought. Absolutely everything is a product of our thinking, it all has the same source which is Reality. None of it is separate, how can it be ?
Imagine a scenario , we all humans die at once due to something which is likely these days more than ever 😢! So there wouldn’t be anybody on earth to think and apprehend a tree through senses and brain and thinking process, but trees are still existing out there , so trees are absolute truth ! Apart and regardless of our thinking process. But things like Fear,greed and attachments aren’t , So can we say trees are absolute truth ? And those stuff although reality at the time of our being, but not truth ??
I like your comment and I think you describe and understand very well.
But I would like to ask. Is violence truth? You correctly see that anything that exists in thought is reality, and can not be truth.
But is the violence of a fox eating a mouse truth? Or reality?
If we did not observe it and say “that is violence” is there any violence at all?
The fox kills the mouse, that is REAL that is also a representation of TRUTH. That has happened wether we perceive it or not. Truth.
But is the violence truth? Or is it merely a reality.
Personally I would say that, by the nature of the premise we have agreed upon with regards to the distinction between reality and truth, we can never say “THAT is truth.” We can never know or perceive truth through the mind.
That was insightful. Thanks.
But I think violence is not a truth. Or at least that there is a distinction between animal and human violence. Human violence is a result of thought. Animal violence is instinct. No thought involved.
The case with fear is difficult. It really begs the question of whether fear exists before or after memory. Are we as children first hurt, then the memory creates fear? Or is fear something more inherent which gets mixed with memory and thought after being hurt? I almost think the latter, not from my own insight but from logic. It would make sense for healthy fear to be a part of us, while unhealthy excessive worrying to be a learned behaviour.
No matter what you talk there is no escape my dear and you knew that. If there was one, you would have escaped.
Parece-me que Krishnamurti está procurando pensar a diferença entre realidade e verdade de um modo diverso ao de Platão (soubesse disso ou nao). Para este, de fato, a realidade é a questao: o que é realmente a realidade? Ou seja, a verdadeira e não a que percebemos? Concluía ele que a verdadeira e não aparente era somente a alcançada pelo pensamento (as ideias ideais). E a verdade, em consequência, a percepção da ideias... --- Como se vê, é algo bem diferente o que procura pensar Krishnamurti. Para ele, até onde consigo alcançar, está além do pensamento que, enquanto tal, só identifica a realidade mas não a verdade. Está então só se abre ao amor. (Valéria, quem sabe, pensar a verdade, também, no sentido de Heidegger, o qual igualmente propõe outro sentido de verdade que o de Platao: algo aparentado a revelação.)
Realism believes that things around us exist independent of us and the observer. And things incessantly change.Their existence is in a duration of time. Time is also reality, change being synonymous to time. Hence, reality is that which changes within a span of time. But truth is being. Being transcends time.Truth is timeless and formless. Hence, Reality per se must be a form of Truth, finally ending up in Truth. And further, since Reality and Truth both become meaningful because of Self, Truth cannot be other than Self. Quantum mechanics corroborates this, except it's silence on what Reality in cohesive superposition, as a quantum wave function ultimately is.
I like what you wrote here. Did you see Bernardo Kastrup videos about nature of the universe? You definately should If you didnt, he explains his idea about the universe as a conscious process so well
Full video?
Human beings aren't created by thought and other stuff like nature lust, anger, tree lion etc which is reality. but we humans created thoughts which we are named it reality or taken as truth, here we made a mistake.
We didn't create thinking we have thoughts. We think. The word reality is confusing is what he's showing us here.
The point is that what we call reality thought. We cannot get to truth by thinking.
Humans and nature are not created by thought but are still reality. Yes ?
It's asked by the man at 9:02
Can we reguard all that is apprehended through the senses and interpreted by the brain as reality.
Answered yes.
So nature is apprehended through the senses yes ? So it is reality. Did thought create nature? No. So then can you get to truth though thought? No
Why ?
Because it's outside of the scope of thought. That is truth. Truth is outside the scope of thought.
Human beings are indeed created by thought, where do you think all this is happening?
It's all happening in the mind therefore thought.
In deep sleep there are no human beings, no world, not even a "me".
@@Shokirex: Do humans need language to think? Can thought exist without language?
@@Kacie-k3wyes
@@Shokirex….yeah exactly, this guy is talking in riddles.
I wonder these people expect guys on right (on side of Pheroz Mehta ) were there only to make negation of what JK said, they have asked the question but then before listening to speaker they are providing answers themselves 😂
11:56 Too much of dissection leaves one fragmented, I wonder. Reality is what one can see etc or that which can be measured. Truth, on the contrary, is immeasurable. Why then wrestle with Truth?
Why then indeed. We can spend our whole lives wrestling trying to find truth, but never succeeding.
But I would say it’s our nature to ask questions.
Perhaps it’s worthwhile to find a joy in our ways of questioning things.
Amongst all, the Buddhist monk was the one, who is unable to understand because of his preconceived notions.
Whos “his”?
i dont understand
Reality is something that only is created by thought. The tree, being observed by a human is a reality interpreted by thought. The tree in itself, is an actuality.
When humans agree something is a reality, it is thoughts that agree upon the constitution of reality. 'That is a tree'. He wants to make it clear reality is separate from the concept of truth.
Since thoughts can never capture truth
@@jonber9411indeed.
imagine a scenario , we all humans die at once due to something which is likely these days more than ever 😢! So there wouldn’t be anybody on earth to think and apprehend a tree through senses and brain and thinking process, but trees are still existing out there , so trees are absolute truth ! Apart and regardless of our thinking process. But things like Fear,greed and attachments aren’t , So can we say trees are absolute truth ? And those stuff although reality at the time of our being, but not truth ?
If nobody is left to think how can you say a tree is there? You can say this now because thought sees a pattern and calls it tree but if no observer is present then there is no one to say about presence or absence of the tree, you assume that when there will be no one then also the tree will be present which is a thought in itself, don't you think?
Full video??
ua-cam.com/video/HhVupJ6UERY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/HhVupJ6UERY/v-deo.html
There must be someone at first...who claims this or that is beautyful or not. When noone is there 2 claim it beautyful= just what is. Beauty= also a made up thought in own mind and who creates thoughts....but the one...who thinks them or sees= aware and conscious 2 them.
Reality is also a thought....dense thoughts= manifested thought...it seems more solid cause its dense dreamed into.
Stop interrupting,
~human from future!!!!
Looks mesut ozil grandma😅
For once I'm sure the audience has a right to be confused. If what thought creates is reality but nature is not created by thought, it implies that nature is not a reality. That's what they're querying, especially as everyone including K agrees that it is.
…..thought is anything but Reality
so if thought is reality .nature is not created by thought then , nature must be truth ?
@@SaujanyaPokhrel-u3cyes but when a human comprehend nature it becomes reality
You have to be so smart to be so stupid. Children could have had a more meaningful discussion.
The perception of nature is reality. Nature itself exists COMPLETELY wether you perceive it or not, that is truth.
The moment we enter reality we have stepped away from truth, because we have made a distinction.
Nature is absolutely created by intelligent design which involves thought
😂 really? Who's the designer?
I don't know why JK used the term reality to refer what thought has created. All are getting confused.
Thought creates Names, Forms & Functions, i.e Identity.
Tree is an identity.
In reality it simply exists which is the truth.