Many boilers use dampers because of the thermal mass of the boiler. There may not be an interlock, but there is something that shuts down the burner if there is no draft. Thanks for the comment. GFM
The original idea was to close the vent off to block the loss of conditioned air. Also older furnaces had heavier heat exchangers that could still lose heat after the fan went off. Honeywell has pulled them from the market and recommended they be removed. I dont think they have any value. Thanks for the comment. GFM
I have been helping my dad over the last 15 years due to his health and he is a big believer in Weil-McLain boilers and believe it or not they still use a motorized damper on their non power vented CGa series boilers. I don't think there is even an interlock to verify the damper is open, because I think its only a two wire plug from the motor. He will sell 10 CGa's to 1 CGI just because the CGA is so simple. Thanks for sharing, I enjoy your videos. Scott.
During the 1980s there were a lot of "energy saving" devices installed on furnaces. Most of which did not work. When I have gathered several of these,I will do a video on them. If yours still works you can leave it alone. I will be doing a video on how to bypass these and jam them open. If you just jam them open the furnace will not work. Hope this helps. GFM
@@arturocortes861 Not simple. The best way is to remove the damper and replace it with a short pipe. However, it is wired in with the gas valve circuit. You will have to disconnect the wiring where it connects to the gas valve wiring and bypass. GFM
How exactly do I bypass the damper? Mine is in an open position, but I have to constantly flick the arrow switch to get the furnace to fire. I need to bypass this thing altogether. Please help.
Hello I need help eliminating this wiring from my furnace! I have the damper blocked open and the unit apart but dont know how to wire the thermostat so the furnace will light without it! Please give me some insight!!
The coal furnace has a low fire and high fire. Low fire is to keep the fire going and the high fire starts when the thermostat calls for heat. So vent gasses are always passing up the vent. GFM
The purpose of a damper is to close the vent in the off cycle. The damper powers closed in the off cycle. Actually, the one I used was new. The manufacturer does not want them installed. Older boilers, and some newer ones, are cast iron and hold a lot of heat in the off cycle that can pass out the vent. Many boilers and commercial water heaters still have a vent damper. If you saved 5% of a $500 yearly heating bill, that would be $25 a year. Even 10% would be close to a 10 year payback
I have a D896 unit that occasionally doesn't make a complete cycle. I can't see spending $250 or more on a replacement for such a small return. Which leads in the J1 connector can be jumpered to bypass the circuit? The colors are: Black (top-left) White (bottom-left) White-Yellow (top-right) Black-Yellow (bottom-right). I couldn't find a lead number on the circuit board. I understand I also have to lock the damper open.
Depending on the age of your furnace, you may be far better off with either a new furnace or a flame retention burner. Also, a quality annual tune up with combustion analysis is vital. GFM
Ok, I I have a question. Was there some kind of "non-flame retention burner" that came before the flame retention burner? Starting in the service literature in the 1980s and 1990s, you see "flame retention burners" mentioned as if they are the greatest new thing. From what I gather, the non-retention burners were cast iron, required more excess air to achieve smokelsss combustion, and produced a larger, lazier flame. Does anyone have a picture of exactly what they looked like? Thanks.
I installed one on my boiler 10 years ago after replacing my aquastat. The previous aquastat had only a configurable high limit, typically 180F. The new aquastat had a configurable low/high, typically 140/180F.The advantage of the configurable low limit is it will prevent the boiler internal temperature from dropping too low, which causes warmup delays when it is called for heat, and can lead to premature core corrosion and sediment on the burners. The later is entirely dependent on the boiler materials (cast iron, aluminum, copper, etc) and how well it is built, and wasn't really the focus of the upgrade."More to the point, obviously, setting a low limit where I previously never had one, and not having a vent damper, caused my boiler to run excessively (without the circulation pump) to keep itself warm, especially on cold days where it would run a burn cycle every 15 minutes for about 2 minutes to increase the boiler temperature.This had three bad results. One, it was overheating the house because the first two radiators in line, even without the circulation pump running, were absorbing some of the low limit burn increase. This was minimal and wasn't the primary issue, but is worth mentioning. The two other major issues were the obvious wear and tear on the gas valve, which failed the following year, and the obvious waste of fuel.After researching vent dampers, and having previous bad luck with Honeywell products, I avoided the ARD6 because of complaints about reliability and the complexity of wiring. It is the "updated version" of the D80D in this video and virtually identical in wiring and function.I decided on the Durozone damper. It had a 5 year warranty and was $70 so I had little to lose. It was also the simplest to install, operating on two wired, not four, since the motor is 24v with an internal relay. I wired it up to the aquastat gas valve trigger and configured it for always closed, power open. Whenever the gas valve opened, the vent opens. As the pilot always operates, even with the vent closed for prolonged periods, I did two things to prevent monoxide buildup; I removed the small 1" plug in half of the vent flap to keep draft momentum, and I installed a carbon monoxide detector inside the boiler room with a PPM display on it.Then I went one step further. I made a heat alarm. A 220F thermostat thermocouple sensor that closes its connection (opposed to terminates its connection) a 24V relay that is energized when the gas valve is off, hence the vent is closed, and a piezo alarm speaker that sounds when the thermostat sensor hits 220F and closes its connection. This circuit only operates when the gas valve is closed because it isn't energized when the gas valve is open. Basically, this is what should have been on these vent dampers 30 years ago because it will sound an alarm if the exhaust gases are too hot, indicating a jammed closed vent.Anyway, I instantly noticed the boiler doesn't run its warmup cycle as much. The gas valve has lasted 10 years, as has the Durazone damper. The heat alarm has had a few false positives, usually because the idle temperatures get close to 220 if the vent doesn't open for an extended period because the pilot light obviously produces a decent amount of heat, and most of that heat doesn't actually escape through the 1" unplugged hole in the vent disc.Importantly, I've saved about $20 a year on fuel by my estimate. It doesn't sound like a lot, and is somewhat conservative, but that does amount to more than double return on savings over the cost of the damper (minus professional installation if you were to hire someone to install/replace one) so these things DO WORK, but they can be dangerous and the return on investment is long.However, for me, it really began and ended with just wanting my boiler not to run warmup cycles so much from parasitic heat loss and it solved that.
My damper has a strong spring which causes the damper to return to the fully open position when the furnace is called to heat. The damper controller box has a gear motor which closes the damper when heat is no longer needed. The control board in the box has two micro switches. One micro switch tells the furnace that the damper is fully open and that it is now safe to light the burners. The other micro switch tells the gear motor to go into hold mode and reduces the amount of force applied to the damper. When the thermostat tells the furnace that heat is needed, the damper opens up. When it is fully opened, the micro switch tells the furnace that it is now safe to light the burners. In order for the gas solenoid to open and allow gas into the combustion chamber, several interlock switches are usually required to be closed (passing current and completing the circuit). There may be a rollout thermal switch down by the burners, on the front of the furnace. The rollout thermal switch detects if there are hot gasses escaping the combustion chamber around the opening where the burners are located. This can be caused by the door or other metal plates not being properly installed at the front of the furnace. There may be another temperature switch on the flue. This is the spill switch and detects if exhaust gasses are not flowing freely up the flue, but instead are spilling out around the top of the furnace and into the living space. These interlock switches are there for safety reasons and should not be bypassed. The damper needs to be open whenever the furnace is lit. If the damper control is not working properly, it can be disabled so that it is always open. In this case, you may disconnect the power to the damper control, but you will need to jumper across the wires to the switch that detects if the damper is open so that the furnace will come on. Several problems can cause the damper to not operate properly. The gear motor may have an electrical problem (open or short circuit). The gear motor may have stripped or jammed gears. The motor in the gear motor may seize. The fuse in the controller may have opened up. One of the micro switches may be defective. The relay in the controller may be defective. The spring that forces the damper open may be broken. And others.
What kind of damper is this? I am looking to put one on my garage furnace. But I want a proving switch that has to be satisfied before the furnace kicks on.
I installed on an old gas furnace. had to swap out the pilot to get electronic ignition. the energy savings were HUGE and instant. the honeywell electronics were poorly designed and the circuit board controller failed and I had to re-solder it every other year. the round hole is for venting if there is a pilot. also, there is one for use on oil fired, but again, electronic ignition.
Most Honeywell s8610u controllers won't allow the controller to operate ever again without a damper once it has been used with one. It blows an internal hidden fuse.
Yeah. I've always thought that was pretty crappy when you understand that those dampers were "recalled". The quotes are there because Honeywell did the HVAC recall that means "Take them off and do not replace them but we will not be responsible for anything". GFM
BTW I understand that the Honeywell ones and your video is about the Honeywells from the 80s. So to fix your problem is just put a screw where the arrow is when it is pointing open. then it can not turn
I had two of these on my furnace the 1st one was the D80 the 2nd one was a D896 the first one lasted ten years the second one lasted almost fifteen years and failed just a week ago, you are 1000% correct about the only thing good I can say about these is it kept the basement a few degrees warmer for a short time. not worth the money you would spend on this. the only one that benefitted was Honeywell.
yooperpower BTW- I don't know if you ever looked at the electrical diagram for the D896, but it's wrong. I always found that to be funny. Both leds did not light at the same time. But the wiring diagram had them wired that way. It did not function that way. But you are correct that the D896 was the better unit.
Thanks for the response. But your ROI in todays prices are not correct. The one from Field Controls at around $150 is not going to allow the furnace to on if it is in open state. Was the Honeywell like that? Does the concept not work? Do they stop heat loss? I have an old coal furnace which is cast iron and if the concept works to stop heat loss it can be paid in 2.5 years at most and could pay in 1 year.
If we don't need these anymore , so why they got it installed? I have an old furnace with one of these and I wonder if I can jam this damper open ...from what I read this should save some energy when closed , isn't it?
SOrry I should have been more clear. This is a converted American standard with a a Carlin 100CRD gun. So I do not think I have low or high fire, right?
Hi, I don't undestand, What do you mean there is no true off cycle? The Field Control unit will close after 3 minutes. I think the Honeywell was 15 seconds right? Of course I want to be safe . 3 minutes is not enough? I was looking at some reviews from Pexsupply who sell it and at least 10 thought it was worth it. But I do go with caution on if the concept works before I buy.
GFM: I have a FLAIR 6" stack damper that has been intermittent. Last week my boiler failed and I manually 'helped' the damper vane open as the motor actuated. The boiler began cycling normally again for a week. It failed again today. While troubleshooting the problem, I wanted to make sure I didn't have a gas valve issue and as I was attempting to manually actuate the Open/Fire micro-switch, I shorted and blew the hard-wired fuse - although, I did get the boiler to fire first. I'm thinking of jumping the fuse but not until I can figure out what the problem is. The pilot is still standing and the boiler will fire with the stack damper microswitch coerced. The unit, a 6" FLAIR SL 190206, has an interlock device. It is operated by a Honeywell L8148J AquaStat. 1. Can you tell me how to disengage the interlock device? 2. Can you describe the other safety features that are integrated into the gas valve control so I can evaluate them? 3. I understand several controllers will not allow you to by-pass the damper. Is the Honeywell L8148J one of them? Great great channel! You've helped me with a number of prior questions. Thank you very much!!
The problem with interlock devices is they are not designed to be bypassed. You can jam the damper open and bypass the damper circuitry. It is sometimes quite complicated to do. You also need to be sure it is safe. If it is a standing pilot, the gas valve has a pilot safety incorporated inside. The controller you have does not stop you from bypassing the damper. If it was mine, I would replace the damper. Unlike forced air furnaces, dampers do save energy on boilers. Hope this helps. GFM
if you unplug the wire, it fails open. there is no 'jamb' involved. the wiring is super simple to anyone that has the most basic electronical understanding. power for 2 wires, and feedback that it is opened or closed. the device interrupts the signal to the furnace so that the furnace cannot start unless the damper is validated as opened. the unit costs about $100 is the best energy savings you will get for that money. it will immediately bring an 80% efficiency unit up to about 95%
davemisme I am having this problem where my damper won’t open all the way and prevents the furnace from igniting. There are 5 wires connected to the damper what do I disconnect or splice together in order to let the furnace know it is open
Would you happen to have a diagram for a Johnson M15A-1? As you know they are different as they rotate 360 degrees. Love to know how they work internally to correct my wiring.
About the only thing I have is the M35BE actuator install instructions. Look for it on Grayfurnaceman.com under "HVAC parts manuals" Hope it helps. GFM
Seems like it might be worth a try with the old girl. I did put an inquiry out to Field Controls to get their opinion. I saw one review on the PexSupply page that saw result on a similar conversion. I wish their were more. They had 10 positive reviews but one never knows if companies pay for 5 star ratings or only show the good ones
Based on a Field Controls OVD at $150 , the math for ROI is : Average of my use 400 gallons a year if mild winter. $3.56 G based on and average of 2013 winter price of $3.86 and 2013 summer price of $3.26= $3.56/g in the NJ area. 5%=20 gallons saved = $71.20 I use less oil than most, So conservatively it would take 2.19 years to pay off. if you self install. But save 10% and install.an old coal furnace that is pretty much just an open tunnel to the stack . Maybe I will save more than 5%
Vent dampers were installed on many existing furnaces in the 1980s as an attempt to increase efficiency. They are still used on boilers due to the thermal mass of the boiler. The damper must prove it is open before the furnace can fire. The wires open the damper and prove the damper is open. GFM
I don't get where you guys are coming up with $400 for this part. I only paid $175 for it back in the 80s. And yes there was two types- one that the motor kept on holding the vent closed when the boiler was off, and one that would rotate the damper open when the boiler started, and then shut the damper off then when boiler turn off. The second one lasted 20 years. As for reading the electrical diagram - If you can play connect the dots, you can read the thing. It's no more that complicated than Christmas lights.
Mine is not working properly. I think that the real question would be if this device is actually worth the 120 $ it cost today ? And if the energy it actually 'can' save is more then that in it's 10 years or so live ... It's probably hard to calculate as I see it.
You cannot use them on a coal furnace. There is no true off cycle in a coal furnace. If one is installed, vent gasses will be introduced into the structure. There are as many designs of dampers as there are manufacturers. The concept seemed to have some value. However, in practice I was never able to find any specs that proved its worth. I installed many of them in the 80s, but my customers could never detect a savings. It sounds good, but does not work. GFM
Ha Ha! Now THIS is funny...Just told my wife about these; vent dampers, from the Jimmy Carter days I guess, and said they'd be perfect for a little problem: our furnace chimney is south of our fireplace chimney, and with a north wind, the fireplace creates vacuum in the home, which sucks air down the furnace flu, and it sometimes brings wood smoke down too, "smellable" in the hall. Well, here you're telling me they're dangerous, and lets disable them! Well, $400 's a bit steep anyway. Blessings!
I have same kind of vent damper (honeywell model is D80B) it was working well but now its not working because motor gear is worn out , So I want to replace this set, if anybody has any idea where I can get or anybody can replace for me please share it.
I have seen similar type of vent damper in web site ( model D896). it looks same and they are saying D896 is replacement of D80B, but I don't know . If you have any idea about it please could you tell me. If it match I want to replace the part. I am out of heat now.
gone msky You can try it. It appears the same. The problem is these dampers were not effective in saving energy. I see your point that it does not work and you have no heat. The best solution is to remove it and rewire the control voltage. However, You have to know what you are doing to accomplish this. I will be making an explanation of how to remove and rewire but its going to be a while before it gets done. I wish I could be of more help. GFM
If the Honeywell ignition control is the S86, and the damper is plugged into it, the control won't work if the plug is removed. The control must be replaced. GFM
You are CORRECT! After more searching (by looking up the instruction manual for the Honeywell S86 ignition control), it said that once the ignition control powers up for the first time and senses that an electronic damper actuator is being used, the control will ALWAYS remember that their MUST be a automatic damper actuator connected to it in order to function (there is no way to "trick" it to work without a automatic damper actuator)! So, if your automatic damper actuator fails (most likely the silver "clock type" motor (maybe it's making a knock, knock, knock sound- and you cannot buy "just the motor"), either replace the automatic damper actuator- (in my case the Johnson Controls M35BE-1 is the one I needed to replace the obsolete Johnson Controls M15AC-1), or, omit the auto damper system entirely and buy a BRAND NEW control. Not sure if a used control work work in this situation! Wow. Buy yourself a beer for me! Either way you decide to go, new ign module, or new damper actuator are both about $200 from patriotsupplydotcom
I am unclear of two things. First why "jam" something open that is already held open by the spring? If what you pulled out is from the 80s , it seems like the spring held up fine and most likely would rust open in that position. I understand why you would not want to risk it would ever close.. Second is the I was not clear if you hve an old boiler, why is it a good idea that is no longer needed? Was it only the price you had an issue with? If you saved 5% you can pay for newer versions 1 yr
ha ha a furnace guy trying to sell me a new unit. I guess I should not be surprised :) well but that goes back to your thoughts on a $400 pay pack, The last test was that the old girl with a Carlin gun was75% average new unit is 85% when new and drop off every year. I am not sure spending thousands as a good pay off either.
Many boilers use dampers because of the thermal mass of the boiler. There may not be an interlock, but there is something that shuts down the burner if there is no draft. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
The original idea was to close the vent off to block the loss of conditioned air. Also older furnaces had heavier heat exchangers that could still lose heat after the fan went off. Honeywell has pulled them from the market and recommended they be removed. I dont think they have any value. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
I have been helping my dad over the last 15 years due to his health and he is a big believer in Weil-McLain boilers and believe it or not they still use a motorized damper on their non power vented CGa series boilers. I don't think there is even an interlock to verify the damper is open, because I think its only a two wire plug from the motor. He will sell 10 CGa's to 1 CGI just because the CGA is so simple. Thanks for sharing, I enjoy your videos. Scott.
During the 1980s there were a lot of "energy saving" devices installed on furnaces. Most of which did not work. When I have gathered several of these,I will do a video on them. If yours still works you can leave it alone. I will be doing a video on how to bypass these and jam them open. If you just jam them open the furnace will not work. Hope this helps.
GFM
How do you by pass it ? Ty
@@arturocortes861 Not simple.
The best way is to remove the damper and replace it with a short pipe. However, it is wired in with the gas valve circuit. You will have to disconnect the wiring where it connects to the gas valve wiring and bypass.
GFM
How exactly do I bypass the damper? Mine is in an open position, but I have to constantly flick the arrow switch to get the furnace to fire. I need to bypass this thing altogether. Please help.
We liked to say it saved enough money to pay for its replacement! Thanks for the comment.
GFM
Hello I need help eliminating this wiring from my furnace! I have the damper blocked open and the unit apart but dont know how to wire the thermostat so the furnace will light without it! Please give me some insight!!
The coal furnace has a low fire and high fire. Low fire is to keep the fire going and the high fire starts when the thermostat calls for heat. So vent gasses are always passing up the vent.
GFM
I have this exact POS damper on my boiler and it is failing, how do I bypass the wiring?
Would not work anyway as it has to be open when the furnace is on. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
The purpose of a damper is to close the vent in the off cycle. The damper powers closed in the off cycle. Actually, the one I used was new. The manufacturer does not want them installed. Older boilers, and some newer ones, are cast iron and hold a lot of heat in the off cycle that can pass out the vent. Many boilers and commercial water heaters still have a vent damper. If you saved 5% of a $500 yearly heating bill, that would be $25 a year. Even 10% would be close to a 10 year payback
I have a D896 unit that occasionally doesn't make a complete cycle. I can't see spending $250 or more on a replacement for such a small return. Which leads in the J1 connector can be jumpered to bypass the circuit? The colors are: Black (top-left) White (bottom-left) White-Yellow (top-right) Black-Yellow (bottom-right). I couldn't find a lead number on the circuit board. I understand I also have to lock the damper open.
Depending on the age of your furnace, you may be far better off with either a new furnace or a flame retention burner. Also, a quality annual tune up with combustion analysis is vital.
GFM
Ok, I I have a question. Was there some kind of "non-flame retention burner" that came before the flame retention burner? Starting in the service literature in the 1980s and 1990s, you see "flame retention burners" mentioned as if they are the greatest new thing. From what I gather, the non-retention burners were cast iron, required more excess air to achieve smokelsss combustion, and produced a larger, lazier flame. Does anyone have a picture of exactly what they looked like? Thanks.
I installed one on my boiler 10 years ago after replacing my aquastat. The previous aquastat had only a configurable high limit, typically 180F. The new aquastat had a configurable low/high, typically 140/180F.The advantage of the configurable low limit is it will prevent the boiler internal temperature from dropping too low, which causes warmup delays when it is called for heat, and can lead to premature core corrosion and sediment on the burners. The later is entirely dependent on the boiler materials (cast iron, aluminum, copper, etc) and how well it is built, and wasn't really the focus of the upgrade."More to the point, obviously, setting a low limit where I previously never had one, and not having a vent damper, caused my boiler to run excessively (without the circulation pump) to keep itself warm, especially on cold days where it would run a burn cycle every 15 minutes for about 2 minutes to increase the boiler temperature.This had three bad results. One, it was overheating the house because the first two radiators in line, even without the circulation pump running, were absorbing some of the low limit burn increase. This was minimal and wasn't the primary issue, but is worth mentioning. The two other major issues were the obvious wear and tear on the gas valve, which failed the following year, and the obvious waste of fuel.After researching vent dampers, and having previous bad luck with Honeywell products, I avoided the ARD6 because of complaints about reliability and the complexity of wiring. It is the "updated version" of the D80D in this video and virtually identical in wiring and function.I decided on the Durozone damper. It had a 5 year warranty and was $70 so I had little to lose. It was also the simplest to install, operating on two wired, not four, since the motor is 24v with an internal relay. I wired it up to the aquastat gas valve trigger and configured it for always closed, power open. Whenever the gas valve opened, the vent opens. As the pilot always operates, even with the vent closed for prolonged periods, I did two things to prevent monoxide buildup; I removed the small 1" plug in half of the vent flap to keep draft momentum, and I installed a carbon monoxide detector inside the boiler room with a PPM display on it.Then I went one step further. I made a heat alarm. A 220F thermostat thermocouple sensor that closes its connection (opposed to terminates its connection) a 24V relay that is energized when the gas valve is off, hence the vent is closed, and a piezo alarm speaker that sounds when the thermostat sensor hits 220F and closes its connection. This circuit only operates when the gas valve is closed because it isn't energized when the gas valve is open. Basically, this is what should have been on these vent dampers 30 years ago because it will sound an alarm if the exhaust gases are too hot, indicating a jammed closed vent.Anyway, I instantly noticed the boiler doesn't run its warmup cycle as much. The gas valve has lasted 10 years, as has the Durazone damper. The heat alarm has had a few false positives, usually because the idle temperatures get close to 220 if the vent doesn't open for an extended period because the pilot light obviously produces a decent amount of heat, and most of that heat doesn't actually escape through the 1" unplugged hole in the vent disc.Importantly, I've saved about $20 a year on fuel by my estimate. It doesn't sound like a lot, and is somewhat conservative, but that does amount to more than double return on savings over the cost of the damper (minus professional installation if you were to hire someone to install/replace one) so these things DO WORK, but they can be dangerous and the return on investment is long.However, for me, it really began and ended with just wanting my boiler not to run warmup cycles so much from parasitic heat loss and it solved that.
My damper has a strong spring which causes the damper to return to the fully open position when the furnace is called to heat. The damper controller box has a gear motor which closes the damper when heat is no longer needed. The control board in the box has two micro switches. One micro switch tells the furnace that the damper is fully open and that it is now safe to light the burners. The other micro switch tells the gear motor to go into hold mode and reduces the amount of force applied to the damper. When the thermostat tells the furnace that heat is needed, the damper opens up. When it is fully opened, the micro switch tells the furnace that it is now safe to light the burners.
In order for the gas solenoid to open and allow gas into the combustion chamber, several interlock switches are usually required to be closed (passing current and completing the circuit). There may be a rollout thermal switch down by the burners, on the front of the furnace. The rollout thermal switch detects if there are hot gasses escaping the combustion chamber around the opening where the burners are located. This can be caused by the door or other metal plates not being properly installed at the front of the furnace. There may be another temperature switch on the flue. This is the spill switch and detects if exhaust gasses are not flowing freely up the flue, but instead are spilling out around the top of the furnace and into the living space. These interlock switches are there for safety reasons and should not be bypassed.
The damper needs to be open whenever the furnace is lit. If the damper control is not working properly, it can be disabled so that it is always open. In this case, you may disconnect the power to the damper control, but you will need to jumper across the wires to the switch that detects if the damper is open so that the furnace will come on.
Several problems can cause the damper to not operate properly. The gear motor may have an electrical problem (open or short circuit). The gear motor may have stripped or jammed gears. The motor in the gear motor may seize. The fuse in the controller may have opened up. One of the micro switches may be defective. The relay in the controller may be defective. The spring that forces the damper open may be broken. And others.
What kind of damper is this? I am looking to put one on my garage furnace. But I want a proving switch that has to be satisfied before the furnace kicks on.
How do I by pass it .. which are the wires to be jumped? Ty
I installed on an old gas furnace. had to swap out the pilot to get electronic ignition.
the energy savings were HUGE and instant.
the honeywell electronics were poorly designed and the circuit board controller failed and I had to re-solder it every other year.
the round hole is for venting if there is a pilot.
also, there is one for use on oil fired, but again, electronic ignition.
Interesting. You are the first to say they had gas savings they could see with this device. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
grayfurnaceman I think he is saying that converting from standing pilot to electronic ignition was a huge and instant savings.
He didn't install shit, he's a faceless troll child that plays video games all day in his bedroom.
Well, as a service tech, I'm not selling anything. You asked for a professional opinion. I gave it.
GFM
Most Honeywell s8610u controllers won't allow the controller to operate ever again without a damper once it has been used with one. It blows an internal hidden fuse.
Yeah. I've always thought that was pretty crappy when you understand that those dampers were "recalled". The quotes are there because Honeywell did the HVAC recall that means "Take them off and do not replace them but we will not be responsible for anything".
GFM
BTW I understand that the Honeywell ones and your video is about the Honeywells from the 80s. So to fix your problem is just put a screw where the arrow is when it is pointing open. then it can not turn
I had two of these on my furnace the 1st one was the D80 the 2nd one was a D896 the first one lasted ten years the second one lasted almost fifteen years and failed just a week ago, you are 1000% correct about the only thing good I can say about these is it kept the basement a few degrees warmer for a short time. not worth the money you would spend on this. the only one that benefitted was Honeywell.
yooperpower BTW- I don't know if you ever looked at the electrical diagram for the D896, but it's wrong. I always found that to be funny. Both leds did not light at the same time. But the wiring diagram had them wired that way. It did not function that way. But you are correct that the D896 was the better unit.
How many vent damper are installed? When would you install a vent damper?
Honeywell has instructed dealers to not install these, and if one is found on the job, jam it open and disconnect or remove it.
GFM
Thanks for the response. But your ROI in todays prices are not correct. The one from Field Controls at around $150 is not going to allow the furnace to on if it is in open state. Was the Honeywell like that? Does the concept not work? Do they stop heat loss? I have an old coal furnace which is cast iron and if the concept works to stop heat loss it can be paid in 2.5 years at most and could pay in 1 year.
If we don't need these anymore , so why they got it installed? I have an old furnace with one of these and I wonder if I can jam this damper open ...from what I read this should save some energy when closed , isn't it?
SOrry I should have been more clear. This is a converted American standard with a a Carlin 100CRD gun. So I do not think I have low or high fire, right?
Hi, I don't undestand, What do you mean there is no true off cycle? The Field Control unit will close after 3 minutes. I think the Honeywell was 15 seconds right? Of course I want to be safe . 3 minutes is not enough? I was looking at some reviews from Pexsupply who sell it and at least 10 thought it was worth it. But I do go with caution on if the concept works before I buy.
GFM:
I have a FLAIR 6" stack damper that has been intermittent. Last week my boiler failed and I manually 'helped' the damper vane open as the motor actuated. The boiler began cycling normally again for a week. It failed again today. While troubleshooting the problem, I wanted to make sure I didn't have a gas valve issue and as I was attempting to manually actuate the Open/Fire micro-switch, I shorted and blew the hard-wired fuse - although, I did get the boiler to fire first. I'm thinking of jumping the fuse but not until I can figure out what the problem is.
The pilot is still standing and the boiler will fire with the stack damper microswitch coerced.
The unit, a 6" FLAIR SL 190206, has an interlock device. It is operated by a Honeywell L8148J AquaStat.
1. Can you tell me how to disengage the interlock device?
2. Can you describe the other safety features that are integrated into the gas valve control so I can evaluate them?
3. I understand several controllers will not allow you to by-pass the damper. Is the Honeywell L8148J one of them?
Great great channel! You've helped me with a number of prior questions. Thank you very much!!
The problem with interlock devices is they are not designed to be bypassed. You can jam the damper open and bypass the damper circuitry. It is sometimes quite complicated to do. You also need to be sure it is safe.
If it is a standing pilot, the gas valve has a pilot safety incorporated inside.
The controller you have does not stop you from bypassing the damper.
If it was mine, I would replace the damper. Unlike forced air furnaces, dampers do save energy on boilers. Hope this helps.
GFM
if you unplug the wire, it fails open. there is no 'jamb' involved.
the wiring is super simple to anyone that has the most basic electronical understanding.
power for 2 wires, and feedback that it is opened or closed. the device interrupts the signal to the furnace so that the furnace cannot start unless the damper is validated as opened.
the unit costs about $100 is the best energy savings you will get for that money.
it will immediately bring an 80% efficiency unit up to about 95%
The jamming of the butterfly is to make absolutely sure it cannot close. Unfortunately, I can't agree with the efficiency.
GFM
davemisme I am having this problem where my damper won’t open all the way and prevents the furnace from igniting. There are 5 wires connected to the damper what do I disconnect or splice together in order to let the furnace know it is open
Would you happen to have a diagram for a Johnson M15A-1? As you know they are different as they rotate 360 degrees. Love to know how they work internally to correct my wiring.
About the only thing I have is the M35BE actuator install instructions. Look for it on Grayfurnaceman.com under "HVAC parts manuals" Hope it helps.
GFM
Thanks. Already tried that. Doesn't tell you how it works internally either. I emailed you from your site. Hope you see it.
Seems like it might be worth a try with the old girl. I did put an inquiry out to Field Controls to get their opinion. I saw one review on the PexSupply page that saw result on a similar conversion.
I wish their were more. They had 10 positive reviews but one never knows if companies pay for 5 star ratings or only show the good ones
Based on a Field Controls OVD at $150 , the math for ROI is :
Average of my use 400 gallons a year if mild winter.
$3.56 G based on and average of 2013 winter price of $3.86 and 2013 summer price of $3.26= $3.56/g in the NJ area.
5%=20 gallons saved = $71.20 I use less oil than most,
So conservatively it would take 2.19 years to pay off. if you self install. But save 10% and install.an old coal furnace that is pretty much just an open tunnel to the stack . Maybe I will save more than 5%
If you are using an oil furnace, that is correct.
GFM
So then the gases are not an issue if it closes after 3 minutes right?
That has four wires .what do they do?
Vent dampers were installed on many existing furnaces in the 1980s as an attempt to increase efficiency. They are still used on boilers due to the thermal mass of the boiler.
The damper must prove it is open before the furnace can fire. The wires open the damper and prove the damper is open.
GFM
I have seen their dampers used as OEM on some water heaters, but no real endorsement.
GFM
I don't get where you guys are coming up with $400 for this part. I only paid $175 for it back in the 80s. And yes there was two types- one that the motor kept on holding the vent closed when the boiler was off, and one that would rotate the damper open when the boiler started, and then shut the damper off then when boiler turn off. The second one lasted 20 years. As for reading the electrical diagram - If you can play connect the dots, you can read the thing. It's no more that complicated than Christmas lights.
Mine is not working properly. I think that the real question would be if this device is actually worth the 120 $ it cost today ? And if the energy it actually 'can' save is more then that in it's 10 years or so live ... It's probably hard to calculate as I see it.
No. Your oil furnace has no low and high fire. Just on and off.
GFM
My arrow is stuck in the closed position. It won't move at all.
Remove the damper. Replace e with a section of 26 ga pipe. No parts or complete dampers available.
GFM
You will have to remove the wiring to bypass the switches.
GFM
You cannot use them on a coal furnace. There is no true off cycle in a coal furnace. If one is installed, vent gasses will be introduced into the structure. There are as many designs of dampers as there are manufacturers. The concept seemed to have some value. However, in practice I was never able to find any specs that proved its worth. I installed many of them in the 80s, but my customers could never detect a savings. It sounds good, but does not work.
GFM
Ha Ha! Now THIS is funny...Just told my wife about these; vent dampers, from the Jimmy Carter days I guess, and said they'd be perfect for a little problem: our furnace chimney is south of our fireplace chimney, and with a north wind, the fireplace creates vacuum in the home, which sucks air down the furnace flu, and it sometimes brings wood smoke down too, "smellable" in the hall. Well, here you're telling me they're dangerous, and lets disable them! Well, $400 's a bit steep anyway. Blessings!
I have same kind of vent damper (honeywell model is D80B) it was working well but now its not working because motor gear is worn out , So I want to replace this set, if anybody has any idea where I can get or anybody can replace for me please share it.
Honeywell has discontinued this model and is recommending they be removed or jammed open.
GFM
can you replace for me similar type
gone msky They don't make them boys anymore. Not even from Honeywell.
GFM
I have seen similar type of vent damper in web site ( model D896). it looks same and they are saying D896 is replacement of D80B, but I don't know . If you have any idea about it please could you tell me. If it match I want to replace the part. I am out of heat now.
gone msky You can try it. It appears the same. The problem is these dampers were not effective in saving energy. I see your point that it does not work and you have no heat. The best solution is to remove it and rewire the control voltage. However, You have to know what you are doing to accomplish this. I will be making an explanation of how to remove and rewire but its going to be a while before it gets done. I wish I could be of more help.
GFM
Why don't you just undo the bolts that fasten the damper to the shaft and remove the damper plate?
This is just an easier way. no disassembly.
GFM
10-4. Now if you could show me what wires to jump on my generic Honeywell brainbox, I'd be in business.
If the Honeywell ignition control is the S86, and the damper is plugged into it, the control won't work if the plug is removed. The control must be replaced.
GFM
You are CORRECT! After more searching (by looking up the instruction manual for the Honeywell S86 ignition control), it said that once the ignition control powers up for the first time and senses that an electronic damper actuator is being used, the control will ALWAYS remember that their MUST be a automatic damper actuator connected to it in order to function (there is no way to "trick" it to work without a automatic damper actuator)! So, if your automatic damper actuator fails (most likely the silver "clock type" motor (maybe it's making a knock, knock, knock sound- and you cannot buy "just the motor"), either replace the automatic damper actuator- (in my case the Johnson Controls M35BE-1 is the one I needed to replace the obsolete Johnson Controls M15AC-1), or, omit the auto damper system entirely and buy a BRAND NEW control. Not sure if a used control work work in this situation! Wow. Buy yourself a beer for me! Either way you decide to go, new ign module, or new damper actuator are both about $200 from patriotsupplydotcom
You got it.
GFM
I am unclear of two things. First why "jam" something open that is already held open by the spring? If what you pulled out is from the 80s , it seems like the spring held up fine and most likely would rust open in that position. I understand why you would not want to risk it would ever close.. Second is the I was not clear if you hve an old boiler, why is it a good idea that is no longer needed? Was it only the price you had an issue with? If you saved 5% you can pay for newer versions 1 yr
Thank you very good
Great JOB- MANY THANKS !!!!!!!!!!! RHPS
IT was a good idea for Honeywelll because they knew they would be a part that has to be replaced! DUH!
I still have a new one in stock but I no longer work should sell it
Thanks
Got what? that 3 minutes
is not enough? Why?
ha ha a furnace guy trying to sell me a new unit. I guess I should not be surprised :) well but that goes back to your thoughts on a $400 pay pack, The last test was that the old girl with a Carlin gun was75% average new unit is 85% when new and drop off every year. I am not sure spending thousands as a good pay off either.
I PLAN TO BLOCK THE DAMPER WITH A BLOCK OF WOOD OVER THE SIDE CONTROL THEN I WILL DISMANTLE THE WIRING FROM THE FURNACE. YEA !!!!!! RHPS
Wood is combustible. Do you really want that in contact with the furnace flue?