Hello you legends. Watch the full episode with Rory here:ua-cam.com/video/DaYTvwe0Wo0/v-deo.html! Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom
Chris I contact you about this exact topic. You being as busy as you are didnt contact me back. I explained around 6 weeks ago I have the " fix " for online dating sites. The man seen in this video did'nt figure it out. I don't want on your podcast.... the trouble I have is I believe its a multi million dollar game changer to dating sites. Do you have any idea what I should do with this new found knowledge. Heres is an example : Markus Fiend a young man from Burnaby , Vancouver Canada created Plenty of Fish he sold it a few years later back in 2015 for 575 million dollars. It was Match Group that bought it ok and they also own 4 other websites all revolving around dating. My fix , my culture fix will not go over well with these high end executives, do you get me now. Do you have Chris any clue what I should do ?
"What do people hate that I don't mind?" word. I often say: "Having a job is a lot more about tolerating very well the downsides of what you're doing than about imaginary or deceptive *fulfillment*". People hate or couldn't tolerate what you do? Well here's the edge of your open field.
If I could change just one thing about Tinder, is that I would lock out further swiping, as long as you have a match. When you get matched, either you talk and get together, or you miss out on this opportunity and look further. This would prevent women from being bombarded with attention from dozens of guys at the same time, maybe they'd finally be able to write back and have a conversation for a change.
But what does it mean?! This guy doesn't even take into account that much of "dating" is hook-ups and people trying to exploit each other, or women just being on these apps for attention. The only good advice is, that at least most men shouldn't use those apps at all. For women the same might be true, but they don't take advice anyways, and decided to find out the hard way.
I think...that the way these apps skews toward women and not men by a large margin makes the women feel irrationally optimistic about their potential mate choices. Therefore they act in such a way that would not be the same if people were meeting out in the real world. Which ends up disincentivizing both sexes. Just because it can be done on a screen does not mean it should be done on a screen.
What saddens me deeply is the fact of how few people of the world population that use dating apps will watch and fewer people will understand this and even fewer people'll apply it
@DimitriTheBarbarian If I understand correctly, the British fellow is analyzing the "markets" (job,housing and dating.) Basically making the point the way people decide in the market is flawed because we all have a baseline that may or may not cut off part of the market which Is valuable. For example, the job market > Has degree requirements for possible employees. however, not everyone with said degree are competent and end up being horrible employess with tho they meet the "standard" of the position.
I literally bought my house in 2017 using the parameters he suggested. Spent significantly less than most people I know for the same square footage as the other starter homes (1,200 sq feet). It had only one small cramped bathroom. Other perspective buyers saw this as a deal breaker. I saw it as an opportunity to avoid a bidding war and spend less. Now my mortgage is half paid off while everyone I know is drowning in house payments.
great idea to require a "downside" listing, When I plan to buy something from amazon I always read the negative reviews - discarding the " it was the wrong color" or "the thing arrived too late" I get a much better idea about that product, not just the great description of the seller...and maybe some of those "downsides" are actually pluses for me!
This is probably the worst take from Rory that I've ever seen, but I don't really blame him too hard because he obviously doesn't have experience in the modern dating market and being on dating apps. Both him and Chris mentioned the concept of necessary but not sufficient - however, as soon as they went back to the topic of dating apps somehow that topic was never mentioned again. 99% of women look as good as their photos or worse. Bringing up the consideration that there could be women that get swiped on because their pictures are worse than how they truly look is entirely nonsensical. Guys swipe based on if they're attracted to a woman or not. Housing and employment markets are NOT analogous to this situation at all - guys don't filter out any valuable parts of the market when they swipe left. If a girl isn't attractive in her photos and we swipe left, there's a 99% chance that relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere even if we'd met that girl in real life simply because there's no physical attraction. Unless you'd like to argue that relationships don't need physical attraction, you can't really dispute this point. What is different is this situation from girls to guys, because then Rory's argument would actually make some sense. From my experience guys have general categories for girls (id smash vs. i wouldnt smash) with around 50% in each category. Swiping data would support this. For girls, it's more like 50% of dudes are butt ugly to them and nothing could ever happen, 40% are mid at first glance and the girl could become attracted after she gets to know him more, and 10% or less are cute/hot at first glance. Girls swipe on the 10% that are cute at first glance but swipe left on the 40% where something could happen if they met offline. How to fix that is an interesting conversation but I think it's very difficult based on how deeply looks and social media are intertwined. The even worse problem, though, is that the 40% would still be competing with and losing to the top 10% guy if she matches and talks with both of them. (Or, the girl gets into a relationship with the 40% guy and isn't satisfied because she was dealing with top 10% guys on the apps before) The only way to fix that would be some sort of blocking filter where only top 10% girls could see and swipe on top 10% guys and vice versa, which girls would probably have a massive problem with
'Or, the girl gets into a relationship with the 40% guy and isn't satisfied because she was dealing with top 10% guys on the apps before', this only happens if you don't know what you're doing with women and are just fumbling your way through a relationship, if a woman is attracted to you and respects you she won't just run off because some guy has a better face than you thats ridiculous, you are also revealing you think everything is about looks even in offline situations.
@@mrbritisher9748 not knowing what you're doing with women isn't relevant at all to this point not sure why you included that, im talking about averages/generalities and not a specific situation. Obviously if you are far above average than other guys in areas outside looks you yourself are going to do fine. The proper point against my argument would be all guys being good with girls, in which case nothing changes because no one has a competitive advantage. This is a specific issue with dating apps because of the access it gives. If you go outside and hit on a random average looking girl, it's highly unlikely shes talking to several very attractive guys. If you talking to an average girl on tinder, it's almost a certainty. Never said everything is about looks. But I think it's pretty obvious to see why this situation (average dudes competing against multiple hot guys) makes looks so much more of a factor on dating apps. My point is that the average guy is competing for girls against guys that are objectively better than him on average. It's not like being worse looking makes you have a better personality to even it out. The issue is that the average 5 guy with a 5 personality is facing the average 7 guy with a 5 personality. This situation is a lot worse than real life. mathematically, it's obvious that these not so great looking dudes are going to get screwed over on average, even if they're matching and talking to average looking girls. Will a good amount of guys have happy relationships with women who are attracted to them in this situation? Yes, sure. But at a far lower rate compared to real life where their competition isn't so insane.
@@mrbritisher9748 Alpha widows are a real thing unfortunately. If she's sampled the top she's less likely to settle for an average guy or respect him. Her settings will be stuck on high leaving her dissatisfied. Women do prefer guys who other women already like though, that's true. It's a catch 22 for young men who weren't born with looks/height.
After over 10 years on self-improvement, the number one thing I’ve come to understand is that I am most disciplined, strong, fulfilled, loving, and present, when everything I do is an expression of a healthy self worth. I have nothing to prove, not even to myself. I realise that I am worthy of my own honour and respect, and that of others. If I’m not treating myself in the best way to honour the highest side of myself, or I’m allowing others to treat me badly, then something is off. I honour the passions and purposes I feel called toward by diligently working toward them. I work on myself everyday and reap the rewards, not because I need to so I can feel good about myself, but because guess what, I’m worth it. I deserve to be happy, healthy and prosperous, so do you.
The way I understand this is that online dating and chronic social media use is like selling a product in a saturated market. Have to find other ways to differentiate yourself. Haven’t figured out how tho lol
dating sites know full well what works for good matching - the issue is that successful matches run counter to the business models of modern dating sites.
Excellent comparison though, online dating is like a tickbox looking for specs based quickly on very limited biased information/a certain presentation of reality, with no downsides shown/actual depth/nuance. Very good analogy.
The apps have also opened your geographical range up far too much. All of those moments Rory spoke of happened locally by and large. Certainly there's always been moments further away, from trips to schooling to war, but those connections were still in person. If I want to, I can search for singles in London or Dublin or anywhere right now. So can anyone else logged in. It's given an illusion of never ending choices and also a crushing weight of having to choose from too many options (the latter for women mostly)
Also, we tend to think if “the right person” happens to live far away, things will “just work out” because one of us will relocate; but that’s rarely a real possibility.
I've made the same point about the property market with respect to politicians promising more "affordable housing" will be built. The amount of money people will spend on their house does not change, only the quality of the house does, so over time we just get smaller houses. They should promise more _unaffordable_ houses instead.
Geniusly insightful guest, I might just have to listen to the full podcast! "What downsides can I tolerate and what makes this person uniquely beautiful to me?" are interesting ways of reframing the dating marketplace. When buying cars, you read about the car's deficiencies and miles and accident history, then decide if it's worth it. We should also take this mindset into dating, instead a checklist of green flags we should identify what red flags we can tolerate and which are true deal breakers, then date that person with the full package in mind.
Chris! Never stop Rory when he’s on a tangent. Come on. That’s a golden rule. When you get a mercurial polymath on the show, you let them go and just enjoy the ride. I was digging the hacking of self driving cars.
Totally agree, think Chris is getting more interuptive as a general rule I remember when he first had Rory on back in the day he let him go on for minutes at a time.
"Disproportionately attractive to you." Yep that's what to go for whatever it is. I loathe advertising and marketing but Rory Sutherland is a very interesting guy.
I recall someone once said date until you find the person whose annoying traits are the least bothersome to you and marry that person. (Seems like something Woody Allan?)
Met my wife through online dating. I can assure you the few terrible photos that she used did not come close to what she look like in real life. Why did I swipe right? Because she looked antithetical to all the garden tools that usually proliferate those sites. She wore the biggest, fluffiest jacket I've ever seen to our first date. We had a great time talking over dinner. End of the night I gave her a brief hug and determined out she wasn't overweight or hideous deformed. I knew she was the one if I could enjoy simply spending time with her. TLDR learn to filter out garden tools quickly if you want to have any chance finding someone decent online.
I repeated what Rory said about autonomous cars and how a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the street can easily rob your car because it will stop. The other day I saw people wearing stop signs TShirts on the sidewalk to make cars stop.
Haven’t been using dating apps the past 3 years. Focusing on maintaining a relationship with someone who inevitably after some years flakes is a poor use of time. Id rather grind my portfolio ⬆️ for my potential future family’s benefit and leave the thirsty to pay for sugar babies, OF, and dates.
I emigrated to Canada…. The Canadian driver’s manual has a bit on what angle to collide a bear, if you can’t evade, so it goes over the hood, not through the windshield at you.
Lol i like rory, always have time to hear him speak. Many people who actually make real money in business and think critically based on evidence, understands many prized economic theories are bogus. It is theoretical and often does not apply to reality as some kind of gospel universal truth like many theories are portrayed to be. Even supply and demand curve doesnt hold true in many scenarios. You up the price on certain brands for perception (think designer), without changing supply, you sometimes get more demand. Directly falsifies the rule. It is commonplace/psychological factors are often underrated.
I don't even look at the profiles anyways. I just watch TV and swipe right blindly as fast as I can and wait and see who writes back. Nobody ever does except for Chinese scammers. Dating apps are a big waste of time.
Just because you don't though doesn't mean that's the same for everyone else. For example, literally every woman I know will look at your dating profile after the initial "is he decent looking" check so if you haven't put any effort into your own profile they would just swipe left Vs the other men who also passed the initial check but did fill in their profile. Have to think about what who you are wanting to date is looking for as well as what you want for better chances of success on dating websites - you're effectively selling yourself.
Wheat Waffles is the guy you go to if you want body dysmorphia as a guy or to become obsessed with your own appearance just like women are, analyzing other men's appearances about who is more of a 'chad' or not is absolute cringe and nothing any self respecting guy should be wasting his time with, plus he changes his mind every 2nd week.
@@wyleecoyotee4252 Yes, getting married is primarily for the benefit of children and for a stable society. Would prefer if people did things solely for their own benefit?
@@user-og6hl6lv7p Strange perspective imo. Protecting your daughter is more individualist, letting the community have their way with her is the opposite.
Just write your unjabbed and seek same...it narrows the field down to the ones who at least passed the IQ test and won't be dropping from clots and myocarditis or getting a turbo cancer😢
What if men asked themselves: "Do I want a piece of arm candy to impress others? Or do I want a life partner who will climb the mountains of Life with me?"
I feel like this old phrase about cable fits dating apps, pretty well. Thousands and thousands of women but no one to date. Just like in the past, there were thousands of channels but nothing that was worth watching.
I think I'm a decent looking guy, I have a good job, I'm in shape, I'm sober, I have my priorities in order. I get very little attention on dating apps, and when I do it's from unattractive girls I'm not interested in. I've been with beautiful girls irl, but they don't want me on dating apps. It's weird.
It's a requirement to have some idea about the topic before making suggestions how to improve it. Coming in as an outsider with no clue might lead to interesting ideas, but it's a very particular conversation.
"Dating Apps Should Be More Like Property Websites", gotcha. One for myself, one for rent, one as a future sale investment, one cheapo for renovation, ..
It’s interesting how statistics show people in the US are meeting through online dating more than any other avenue these days, yet guys complain non-stop about how it’s impossible to succeed
You just missed the entire point of the video. It's like the property market right now. The price for entry is so absurdly high, that the average dude is priced out. Only the top 1% can compete. Women are basically the same as properties when it comes to their market value. There is endless speculation on their value so their price is over inflated. So many dudes have bought and sold and lived in them whilst destroying the value of them due to wear and tear, but due to market foces, are still able to sell them for an inflated value. The house thinks it's a 10 million dollar home, but is actually only a 250k home. But since the last dude that owned it was a billionaire, it thinks that's the only person that can own it.
Yes and the latest data shows that around 60% of men 18-30 are single. For women in the same range I think it was around 30%. Most young men are not meeting anyone.
The whole argument: before there was no internet so there was less options - now there is internet so there are more options AND the perception of more options even if you don't really have them. Solution: know your self, know your worth and if you want more options make yourself attractive to the broader dating market.
Men are dating like its a job interview; women are look at dating like they are just browsing/shopping. Our "we want the best or a 5 star rating or the most I want to afford" is infused in consumerism, housing market, dating...all facets of life. Sometimes settling, feeling grateful and living in some level of peace is better then constantly trying to elevate higher and higher which eventually is a very empty cyclical condition that negates even starting such process and being introspective enough to know when to stop.
Online dating was so much easier when I was a teenager. Just open any group chat, click through a few profiles that had no photos and only wrote short texts with where you live and what you do. Short conversations (internet was expensive!) and quickly arranged a date for the weekend in a public place. I met so many different young men! And if an older man pretended to be my own age, I always got a good meal and of course didn't give him my phone number. and today? Today I wouldn't date any of these men based on photos. I know for a fact I'm not looking for an above-average good-looking man, but... does that gap in the teeth have to be there? why does he wear such expensive clothes? Do these pimples come from alcohol? I couldn't ask myself all these questions before!
The market for sex/dating actually follows, quantitatively, the same process as pricing an MBS option contract. You have a market clearing price for sex toward which consumer demand converges. It contains a known price (sex from a worker) and an unknown price (sex from a civilian) which is basically the whole concept of mortgage option -Quant with 13yrs of experience
People max house purchases because its far more difficult and expensive to upgrade later, compared to driving to Toyota and leaving later in a larger car that afternoon.
It's worth noting that dating apps lose a customer every time you actually find a partner for an LTR. So there business model is for you to fail more often than not..
5:30 The graduate job market for computer science is really rough. Feels like no one wants to give you the chance if as Rory says you're not from a Russel group University. I can't speak for the 2.1 as I got a first with dean's list from University of Essex, so granted a pretty middle of the tables Uni, but I achieved a decent grade, and yet I feel a lot of my applications got thrown in the bin just because I didn't attend a top Uni. What makes me think this is that for most applications you don't get even a fucking automated email saying 'Sorry you weren't suitable' you get absolutely nothing back from most jobs.
Yeah I'm sorry mate, you need connections, experience, or a crazy solid portfolio. Start where you can start. I know someone who has a history degree from a random university and they started working at Best Buy in the Geek squad and now they're making six figures at a network operations center for a large power company. Education is basically meaningless in comp sci these days.
@@Joseph-C I'm doing alright now, the irony is the first interview i got offered they've taken me and are actually training me to become a product manager instead of making me sit at associate level for 2 years
Could you please invite Youscha Mount to your next podcast? He critiques wokeism in the most loving and nuanced way I've ever come across. I believe you'd be the perfect podcast to host him.
I like what he's suggesting. How do we practically ask the question of "how much can I afford?" to ourselves when it comes to the dating world? How can we tell what we can afford?
The dating apps are trash, it’s a massive Ad play, and it’s all owned by the same company. If you notice if you get banned from one you start to get banned from others? 🤷🏾♂️🤔
dating apps are absolutely fine. I'm only 5'11, normal looking, average job, and I get matches and likes and can date someone new each week. I cant imagine how easy it must be to legit good looking guys who are funny and wealthy
As I woman who only started using dating apps in the last month, here’s my perspective: apps use male selection preferences (ie a focus on physical attractiveness) because women are the product being marketed. This is why women who use male selection strategies because they are not looking for long-term partners (or wrongfully assume they can get a long term partner from a hookup) benefit more than highly selective women. Of course, highly attractive men benefit the most. If apps were interested in providing value instead of just making money they would take into account female selection strategy. My suggestion for this would be requiring a 1-2 minute video clip on profiles so we can observe body language, way of speaking, general mannerisms, and most importantly for women, how you interact with others. More stringent verification processes would also help. Personally I don’t care about your hobbies or your job or any of that. I care about your values and integrity. These things are impossible to determine on a static profile, and they are ridiculously easy to lie about. So far I’ve found apps woefully inadequate and frustrating to interact with.
The problem with dating apps is that there's little incentive for them to work well. Premium dating platforms used to advertise on TV that a large percentage of their users found relationships (i.e. they got what they were paying for), but 'freemium' apps don't have that incentive. The demand is there, so they can provide a sub-optimal outcome and still make profits (a bit like new builds in the UK housing market). It sounded like Rory was making a case for video clips to be added to dating profiles, which would be an interesting addition. It could potentially bring dating back to a '90s model, when video dating (being sat in a small studio in front of a camera and summarising yourself and what you're looking for from a partner) was a thing. I think your last point is the key to a successful match. I met my gf through online dating, and we share the same life views and sense of humour - we both just 'get' the other (to the point where one of us will say or do something, and the other one will say "I was just thinking that!").
You wouldn’t know someone’s values and integrity unless you were on a date with them. But men will also tell you what you want to hear if you meet them in person
It sounds like you want dating to be even more like a job interview, which is the most un-romantic scenario possible. I personally wouldn't like doing video introductions because I would feel pressured to put on a performance and not act like my honest self. In fact I think it would encourage even more deceptive practices. You gotta delete that app, start asking out guys in real life for once, most of them are single so there's a good chance you won't be rejected. What's the worst that could happen?
@@xDUxEXcluSIvE That's true. I think it usually takes 3-6 months to have a good idea of a person's true character, which is why old fashioned meeting through friends and hanging out as a group first is kind of ideal imo, but if you miss that high school/college window you're sol on that front
@@user-og6hl6lv7p In the age of tiktok, twitter, and instagram, everyone records some of their life nowadays. You can't tell me that you have no videos with you in them in a normal setting hanging out with friends or family or whatever. That's what I'm talking about. Sorry if it wasn't clear. If people put on a performance it's usually easy to tell. My suggestion doesn't matter anyway. No app would do it. They already make enough money (at least for now) Also, I am 34 years old. I have only just started using apps. I have tried and tried for years to avoid them and "meet people in real life." It doesn't happen. Men are terrified of approaching, I wont find a someone I respect in a club, and the people in my immediate circle are taken or female. Third places are dead. People who volunteer are middle aged and above. It's not so easy to meet people irl anymore.
In islam we have introduced marriage from like minded ppl from within our own tried and tested social circle. That way you can test for longterm compatibility and verify the history of the partner and thier family.
He spoke for 13 minutes and said nothing clearly. What was the main point? Find someone you think is really attractive but not everyone else will think so?
He made plenty of clear points. Maybe not answers per se, but certainly descriptions of how one might view the dating market. That the online dating market is less efficient than pre-online (e.g. good resources may go to waste / be unnoticed if market-filters are homogenous), and he made the connection to online dating describing the initial and limited filters (photo, text). The takeaway is that you'd probably need to get onboard with the filters to increase your chances of being seen at all, and that even then the mechanism of a homogenous filter isn't going to work well for as many people on the whole as pre-online-dating when you could see more of a person upfront.
He was super clear to me. Find a woman who is has negative traits that barely bother you, but positive traits that you love. Don't get a woman that is too attractive to too many men, because she will leave you. Find a nice 5 to 7/10 girl that you like spending time with and doesn't drive you nuts. Avoid overly attractive women unless they are for recreational use only. Also, try to find a woman in not so obvious places that are unique to YOU and your situation, so competition is lower or at least controlled. Also, AVOID ONLINE DATING AT ALL COSTS.
If you are in the US and don't like doing hypothetical things, go to a state school for college instead of a University. The state school system focuses on hands on experience, whereas a university focuses on getting researchers.
@@leifiverson8549 In California the State university system is divided into University of California and State University. While not all states have this division if you look into what the local state school focuses on, research or teaching, you can determine if you'll get a hands on education or a theoretical based one. An example of this is University of California Berkeley verses California State University, Chico. The simplest way to find this divide is if the school has a PhD program or not. With a PhD program that university will focus on creating more PhDs and thus is about the research and publish or perish paradigm.
Hello you legends. Watch the full episode with Rory here:ua-cam.com/video/DaYTvwe0Wo0/v-deo.html! Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom
Chris I contact you about this exact topic. You being as busy as you are didnt contact me back. I explained around 6 weeks ago I have the " fix " for online dating sites. The man seen in this video did'nt figure it out. I don't want on your podcast.... the trouble I have is I believe its a multi million dollar game changer to dating sites. Do you have any idea what I should do with this new found knowledge. Heres is an example : Markus Fiend a young man from Burnaby , Vancouver Canada created Plenty of Fish he sold it a few years later back in 2015 for 575 million dollars. It was Match Group that bought it ok and they also own 4 other websites all revolving around dating. My fix , my culture fix will not go over well with these high end executives, do you get me now. Do you have Chris any clue what I should do ?
"What do people hate that I don't mind?" word. I often say: "Having a job is a lot more about tolerating very well the downsides of what you're doing than about imaginary or deceptive *fulfillment*". People hate or couldn't tolerate what you do? Well here's the edge of your open field.
Honestly if more people realized this the more we'd have people be happy and not miserable trying to be "normal"
All work and no play
If I could change just one thing about Tinder, is that I would lock out further swiping, as long as you have a match. When you get matched, either you talk and get together, or you miss out on this opportunity and look further. This would prevent women from being bombarded with attention from dozens of guys at the same time, maybe they'd finally be able to write back and have a conversation for a change.
This guy is the uncle everyone should have.
Imagine how much more reasonable the dating market would be if the first question people asked themselves was "how much can I afford?"
Lol, only men ask that question when dating.
It kinda is but most people overvalue themselves, especially women based on attractive high status men who have had sex with them in the past.
But what does it mean?! This guy doesn't even take into account that much of "dating" is hook-ups and people trying to exploit each other, or women just being on these apps for attention. The only good advice is, that at least most men shouldn't use those apps at all. For women the same might be true, but they don't take advice anyways, and decided to find out the hard way.
He's such a ride! Beautifully eccentric in thought. It took me a while to get on board but once I was there, he's addictive to listen to. Great guest!
I think...that the way these apps skews toward women and not men by a large margin makes the women feel irrationally optimistic about their potential mate choices. Therefore they act in such a way that would not be the same if people were meeting out in the real world. Which ends up disincentivizing both sexes.
Just because it can be done on a screen does not mean it should be done on a screen.
You make an excellent point.
Meeting out in the real world just seems hard and less accessible… ironically.
What saddens me deeply is the fact of how few people of the world population that use dating apps will watch and fewer people will understand this and even fewer people'll apply it
Which makes it great for guys like me- competitive reduction theory
Can you summarize this video. I can’t understand what they saying
@DimitriTheBarbarian If I understand correctly, the British fellow is analyzing the "markets" (job,housing and dating.) Basically making the point the way people decide in the market is flawed because we all have a baseline that may or may not cut off part of the market which Is valuable. For example, the job market > Has degree requirements for possible employees. however, not everyone with said degree are competent and end up being horrible employess with tho they meet the "standard" of the position.
@@lynlynb7139 Plus the employers miss potentially valuable employees who don’t get the degree.
@@lynlynb7139 ugh. Men need to stop talking in complex terms. Make it simple and straight to the point
I literally bought my house in 2017 using the parameters he suggested. Spent significantly less than most people I know for the same square footage as the other starter homes (1,200 sq feet). It had only one small cramped bathroom. Other perspective buyers saw this as a deal breaker. I saw it as an opportunity to avoid a bidding war and spend less. Now my mortgage is half paid off while everyone I know is drowning in house payments.
great idea to require a "downside" listing, When I plan to buy something from amazon I always read the negative reviews - discarding the " it was the wrong color" or "the thing arrived too late" I get a much better idea about that product, not just the great description of the seller...and maybe some of those "downsides" are actually pluses for me!
Filter by 1* reviews is a great way to actually get a good idea of what youre buying. 👌
So happy to see Rory Sutherland on your show Chris, he is such a brilliant wealth of knowledge and such an entertaining character too. Love it.
This is his 3rd or 4th time on Modern Wisdom. :)
@@thesherwoodgardener no kidding! Okay I shall do some trawling thank you.
Andy serkis let himself go
😂
Bro, ur so right…
Literally clicked on this video to comment that😂
No. He just aged. Maybe he was happy doing it?
He lost the ring
This is probably the worst take from Rory that I've ever seen, but I don't really blame him too hard because he obviously doesn't have experience in the modern dating market and being on dating apps. Both him and Chris mentioned the concept of necessary but not sufficient - however, as soon as they went back to the topic of dating apps somehow that topic was never mentioned again.
99% of women look as good as their photos or worse. Bringing up the consideration that there could be women that get swiped on because their pictures are worse than how they truly look is entirely nonsensical. Guys swipe based on if they're attracted to a woman or not. Housing and employment markets are NOT analogous to this situation at all - guys don't filter out any valuable parts of the market when they swipe left. If a girl isn't attractive in her photos and we swipe left, there's a 99% chance that relationship wouldn't have gone anywhere even if we'd met that girl in real life simply because there's no physical attraction. Unless you'd like to argue that relationships don't need physical attraction, you can't really dispute this point.
What is different is this situation from girls to guys, because then Rory's argument would actually make some sense. From my experience guys have general categories for girls (id smash vs. i wouldnt smash) with around 50% in each category. Swiping data would support this. For girls, it's more like 50% of dudes are butt ugly to them and nothing could ever happen, 40% are mid at first glance and the girl could become attracted after she gets to know him more, and 10% or less are cute/hot at first glance. Girls swipe on the 10% that are cute at first glance but swipe left on the 40% where something could happen if they met offline. How to fix that is an interesting conversation but I think it's very difficult based on how deeply looks and social media are intertwined.
The even worse problem, though, is that the 40% would still be competing with and losing to the top 10% guy if she matches and talks with both of them. (Or, the girl gets into a relationship with the 40% guy and isn't satisfied because she was dealing with top 10% guys on the apps before) The only way to fix that would be some sort of blocking filter where only top 10% girls could see and swipe on top 10% guys and vice versa, which girls would probably have a massive problem with
'Or, the girl gets into a relationship with the 40% guy and isn't satisfied because she was dealing with top 10% guys on the apps before', this only happens if you don't know what you're doing with women and are just fumbling your way through a relationship, if a woman is attracted to you and respects you she won't just run off because some guy has a better face than you thats ridiculous, you are also revealing you think everything is about looks even in offline situations.
@@mrbritisher9748 not knowing what you're doing with women isn't relevant at all to this point not sure why you included that, im talking about averages/generalities and not a specific situation. Obviously if you are far above average than other guys in areas outside looks you yourself are going to do fine. The proper point against my argument would be all guys being good with girls, in which case nothing changes because no one has a competitive advantage.
This is a specific issue with dating apps because of the access it gives. If you go outside and hit on a random average looking girl, it's highly unlikely shes talking to several very attractive guys. If you talking to an average girl on tinder, it's almost a certainty. Never said everything is about looks. But I think it's pretty obvious to see why this situation (average dudes competing against multiple hot guys) makes looks so much more of a factor on dating apps.
My point is that the average guy is competing for girls against guys that are objectively better than him on average. It's not like being worse looking makes you have a better personality to even it out. The issue is that the average 5 guy with a 5 personality is facing the average 7 guy with a 5 personality. This situation is a lot worse than real life. mathematically, it's obvious that these not so great looking dudes are going to get screwed over on average, even if they're matching and talking to average looking girls. Will a good amount of guys have happy relationships with women who are attracted to them in this situation? Yes, sure. But at a far lower rate compared to real life where their competition isn't so insane.
@@mrbritisher9748 Alpha widows are a real thing unfortunately. If she's sampled the top she's less likely to settle for an average guy or respect him. Her settings will be stuck on high leaving her dissatisfied.
Women do prefer guys who other women already like though, that's true. It's a catch 22 for young men who weren't born with looks/height.
Rory Sutherland - what a legend! So awesome to have him on!
Never heard of this guy before but seems like a really interesting guy. Looking forward to the full episode!
He has a brilliant TED Talk he did years ago
@@DarsoMAN I'll check it out!
After over 10 years on self-improvement, the number one thing I’ve come to understand is that I am most disciplined, strong, fulfilled, loving, and present, when everything I do is an expression of a healthy self worth.
I have nothing to prove, not even to myself.
I realise that I am worthy of my own honour and respect, and that of others.
If I’m not treating myself in the best way to honour the highest side of myself, or I’m allowing others to treat me badly, then something is off.
I honour the passions and purposes I feel called toward by diligently working toward them.
I work on myself everyday and reap the rewards, not because I need to so I can feel good about myself, but because guess what, I’m worth it.
I deserve to be happy, healthy and prosperous, so do you.
I love this perspective brother, i actually screenshotted this and i am on my way to the gym !
@@taylorg8509 It’s been transformative for me brother! Get that workout in, your body deserves it
Damn bro, this is like a prayer.
I've been lucky enough to be with the same girl for twenty eight years but if I was single I wouldn't go anywhere near dating websites.
The way I understand this is that online dating and chronic social media use is like selling a product in a saturated market. Have to find other ways to differentiate yourself. Haven’t figured out how tho lol
dating sites know full well what works for good matching - the issue is that successful matches run counter to the business models of modern dating sites.
Agreed. It's bad business for them to match everyone up, so they intentionally design ways to keep people single and coming back for more.
Could listen to Rory all day!
Maybe consider getting a job.
@@JohnVanMeter58 😂
Excellent comparison though, online dating is like a tickbox looking for specs based quickly on very limited biased information/a certain presentation of reality, with no downsides shown/actual depth/nuance. Very good analogy.
The apps have also opened your geographical range up far too much. All of those moments Rory spoke of happened locally by and large. Certainly there's always been moments further away, from trips to schooling to war, but those connections were still in person. If I want to, I can search for singles in London or Dublin or anywhere right now. So can anyone else logged in. It's given an illusion of never ending choices and also a crushing weight of having to choose from too many options (the latter for women mostly)
Also, we tend to think if “the right person” happens to live far away, things will “just work out” because one of us will relocate; but that’s rarely a real possibility.
Skip to 9 minutes in.
I've made the same point about the property market with respect to politicians promising more "affordable housing" will be built. The amount of money people will spend on their house does not change, only the quality of the house does, so over time we just get smaller houses. They should promise more _unaffordable_ houses instead.
Geniusly insightful guest, I might just have to listen to the full podcast! "What downsides can I tolerate and what makes this person uniquely beautiful to me?" are interesting ways of reframing the dating marketplace. When buying cars, you read about the car's deficiencies and miles and accident history, then decide if it's worth it. We should also take this mindset into dating, instead a checklist of green flags we should identify what red flags we can tolerate and which are true deal breakers, then date that person with the full package in mind.
Chris! Never stop Rory when he’s on a tangent. Come on. That’s a golden rule. When you get a mercurial polymath on the show, you let them go and just enjoy the ride. I was digging the hacking of self driving cars.
Totally agree, think Chris is getting more interuptive as a general rule I remember when he first had Rory on back in the day he let him go on for minutes at a time.
"Disproportionately attractive to you." Yep that's what to go for whatever it is. I loathe advertising and marketing but Rory Sutherland is a very interesting guy.
I recall someone once said date until you find the person whose annoying traits are the least bothersome to you and marry that person. (Seems like something Woody Allan?)
I believe that is the way to maintain a long relationship more than anything.
Advice from Woody Allen is worthless.
Met my wife through online dating. I can assure you the few terrible photos that she used did not come close to what she look like in real life. Why did I swipe right? Because she looked antithetical to all the garden tools that usually proliferate those sites.
She wore the biggest, fluffiest jacket I've ever seen to our first date. We had a great time talking over dinner. End of the night I gave her a brief hug and determined out she wasn't overweight or hideous deformed.
I knew she was the one if I could enjoy simply spending time with her.
TLDR learn to filter out garden tools quickly if you want to have any chance finding someone decent online.
You wonder if your member Stacks up to all the other one she had
@@tuckerbugeater she hadn't gone on any other dates from the site, so that question is not applicable.
13:31 this is sheer genius!
That last sentence is exactly the advice I give my friends (as a married woman). Perfectly put.
I repeated what Rory said about autonomous cars and how a pedestrian crossing in the middle of the street can easily rob your car because it will stop. The other day I saw people wearing stop signs TShirts on the sidewalk to make cars stop.
Haven’t been using dating apps the past 3 years. Focusing on maintaining a relationship with someone who inevitably after some years flakes is a poor use of time. Id rather grind my portfolio ⬆️ for my potential future family’s benefit and leave the thirsty to pay for sugar babies, OF, and dates.
I emigrated to Canada…. The Canadian driver’s manual has a bit on what angle to collide a bear, if you can’t evade, so it goes over the hood, not through the windshield at you.
Dating apps are designed to generate a date, not a long term relationship. More dates, more money.
Lol i like rory, always have time to hear him speak. Many people who actually make real money in business and think critically based on evidence, understands many prized economic theories are bogus. It is theoretical and often does not apply to reality as some kind of gospel universal truth like many theories are portrayed to be. Even supply and demand curve doesnt hold true in many scenarios. You up the price on certain brands for perception (think designer), without changing supply, you sometimes get more demand. Directly falsifies the rule. It is commonplace/psychological factors are often underrated.
Rory's last line of the video is exactly how I feel about finding a partner.
I don't even look at the profiles anyways. I just watch TV and swipe right blindly as fast as I can and wait and see who writes back. Nobody ever does except for Chinese scammers. Dating apps are a big waste of time.
You’re part of the problem. You’re literally devaluing your/our vote to zero.
It sounds trite but they are what you make them. For anyone on the fence: Put effort in and try to have fun with it. Don't listen to this person.
Just because you don't though doesn't mean that's the same for everyone else.
For example, literally every woman I know will look at your dating profile after the initial "is he decent looking" check so if you haven't put any effort into your own profile they would just swipe left Vs the other men who also passed the initial check but did fill in their profile.
Have to think about what who you are wanting to date is looking for as well as what you want for better chances of success on dating websites - you're effectively selling yourself.
The algorithm probably punishes you for doing this. At one point it might've worked but they've caught onto it.
@@princered10 no, it never worked. That’s why I ended up doing what I do. I’m 57 and they’re just aren’t any women around my age who want to date.
Bill Hicks was right about people who work in marketing.
can you explain it to me what it was, please?
@@eduxfe If you type "bill hicks marketing" into UA-cam, it should be the first video that appears.
Houses are an appreciating asset, cars are a depreciating asset. On the whole. That's why you have different buying behaviour.
You want someone disproportionately attractive to you 😂 Spot on because I know exactly what he is talking about
The average woman rates the average man two out of five
@@tuckerbugeater That's 40% which is relatively close to average. Why would an average guy be rated higher than average? They are average.
@@tuckerbugeater two *out of ten
2 channels for you and that's it: wheat waffles and hoe-math
two actually good channels not MGTOW cringe bravo
Wheat Waffles is the guy you go to if you want body dysmorphia as a guy or to become obsessed with your own appearance just like women are, analyzing other men's appearances about who is more of a 'chad' or not is absolute cringe and nothing any self respecting guy should be wasting his time with, plus he changes his mind every 2nd week.
Semi-arranged marriage through community network of family or friends
That's getting married for the benefit of other people
Sorry, im not an individualist
@@wyleecoyotee4252 Yes, getting married is primarily for the benefit of children and for a stable society. Would prefer if people did things solely for their own benefit?
@@user-og6hl6lv7p Strange perspective imo. Protecting your daughter is more individualist, letting the community have their way with her is the opposite.
Now, I want to rewrite my dating app profile to mainly focus on my flaws...lol
Just write your unjabbed and seek same...it narrows the field down to the ones who at least passed the IQ test and won't be dropping from clots and myocarditis or getting a turbo cancer😢
@@martinregular5003 This is true, lol
@@Hannah-rl5lt Thanks for sharing your personal experience. I have never think of that.
Rory is an absolute legend. Really looking forward to the full episode 👍
What if men asked themselves: "Do I want a piece of arm candy to impress others? Or do I want a life partner who will climb the mountains of Life with me?"
I feel like this old phrase about cable fits dating apps, pretty well. Thousands and thousands of women but no one to date. Just like in the past, there were thousands of channels but nothing that was worth watching.
I think I'm a decent looking guy, I have a good job, I'm in shape, I'm sober, I have my priorities in order. I get very little attention on dating apps, and when I do it's from unattractive girls I'm not interested in. I've been with beautiful girls irl, but they don't want me on dating apps. It's weird.
It's a requirement to have some idea about the topic before making suggestions how to improve it. Coming in as an outsider with no clue might lead to interesting ideas, but it's a very particular conversation.
"Dating Apps Should Be More Like Property Websites", gotcha. One for myself, one for rent, one as a future sale investment, one cheapo for renovation, ..
It’s interesting how statistics show people in the US are meeting through online dating more than any other avenue these days, yet guys complain non-stop about how it’s impossible to succeed
You just missed the entire point of the video. It's like the property market right now. The price for entry is so absurdly high, that the average dude is priced out. Only the top 1% can compete. Women are basically the same as properties when it comes to their market value. There is endless speculation on their value so their price is over inflated. So many dudes have bought and sold and lived in them whilst destroying the value of them due to wear and tear, but due to market foces, are still able to sell them for an inflated value. The house thinks it's a 10 million dollar home, but is actually only a 250k home. But since the last dude that owned it was a billionaire, it thinks that's the only person that can own it.
The difference is (generally) only one person can own the really nice house, whereas gigachad is happy to be shared between dozens of different women.
Yes and the latest data shows that around 60% of men 18-30 are single. For women in the same range I think it was around 30%. Most young men are not meeting anyone.
Rory is the man!
Eventually he's so on point about dating
Big fan of Rory
The whole argument: before there was no internet so there was less options - now there is internet so there are more options AND the perception of more options even if you don't really have them.
Solution: know your self, know your worth and if you want more options make yourself attractive to the broader dating market.
Men are dating like its a job interview; women are look at dating like they are just browsing/shopping.
Our "we want the best or a 5 star rating or the most I want to afford" is infused in consumerism, housing market, dating...all facets of life. Sometimes settling, feeling grateful and living in some level of peace is better then constantly trying to elevate higher and higher which eventually is a very empty cyclical condition that negates even starting such process and being introspective enough to know when to stop.
Online dating was so much easier when I was a teenager. Just open any group chat, click through a few profiles that had no photos and only wrote short texts with where you live and what you do. Short conversations (internet was expensive!) and quickly arranged a date for the weekend in a public place. I met so many different young men! And if an older man pretended to be my own age, I always got a good meal and of course didn't give him my phone number. and today? Today I wouldn't date any of these men based on photos. I know for a fact I'm not looking for an above-average good-looking man, but... does that gap in the teeth have to be there? why does he wear such expensive clothes? Do these pimples come from alcohol? I couldn't ask myself all these questions before!
This guy is so smart
You have an incredible number of applicants with mainly photos and a bit of text. So you decide on basis of the photos. It's as easy as that.
For this analogy to work, we would have to know how many times the property has changed hands and on what dates it did - so body count.
The market for sex/dating actually follows, quantitatively, the same process as pricing an MBS option contract. You have a market clearing price for sex toward which consumer demand converges. It contains a known price (sex from a worker) and an unknown price (sex from a civilian) which is basically the whole concept of mortgage option
-Quant with 13yrs of experience
People max house purchases because its far more difficult and expensive to upgrade later, compared to driving to Toyota and leaving later in a larger car that afternoon.
It's worth noting that dating apps lose a customer every time you actually find a partner for an LTR. So there business model is for you to fail more often than not..
Loved we're he came to in this video... Only to hate the last sentence. 😅
Yes, I do agree with that method of house hunting.
Chris, where do you buy your t-shirts?
5:30 The graduate job market for computer science is really rough. Feels like no one wants to give you the chance if as Rory says you're not from a Russel group University. I can't speak for the 2.1 as I got a first with dean's list from University of Essex, so granted a pretty middle of the tables Uni, but I achieved a decent grade, and yet I feel a lot of my applications got thrown in the bin just because I didn't attend a top Uni. What makes me think this is that for most applications you don't get even a fucking automated email saying 'Sorry you weren't suitable' you get absolutely nothing back from most jobs.
Yeah I'm sorry mate, you need connections, experience, or a crazy solid portfolio. Start where you can start. I know someone who has a history degree from a random university and they started working at Best Buy in the Geek squad and now they're making six figures at a network operations center for a large power company. Education is basically meaningless in comp sci these days.
@@Joseph-C Interesting. Joe is undoubtably right in that the system is broken.
@@Joseph-C I'm doing alright now, the irony is the first interview i got offered they've taken me and are actually training me to become a product manager instead of making me sit at associate level for 2 years
Fellow expat here; the US driver's licence is laughably easy. Just go for it!
My friend Chris is fuming at the statement 'Cameron Diaz couldn't have been a Vogue model'
Of course Bumble has an advertisement before this video clip
Too all over the place. What’s the thesis and how is it supported and leave out all the rest.
Could you please invite Youscha Mount to your next podcast? He critiques wokeism in the most loving and nuanced way I've ever come across. I believe you'd be the perfect podcast to host him.
I like what he's suggesting. How do we practically ask the question of "how much can I afford?" to ourselves when it comes to the dating world? How can we tell what we can afford?
Rory needs to get on Rogan
These types never take any consideration that you actually do talk after you match with someone
13:06 the solution to that is you become the tennis coach
Noticing patterns is becoming illegal, generally. You should be careful with you that. Someone might have to come by to check your thinking.
The intended dialogue starts at 7:23 you're welcome
There is no property 'market'. It's been socialised.
Man-‘I like polyamory’
Woman-‘I’m out’
Great Grandma-‘Polly who?’
Bro... Cameron Diaz STARTED as a model before landing The Mask.
Yikes.. If you want the actual conversation, skip ahead to 7:26!
The dating apps are trash, it’s a massive Ad play, and it’s all owned by the same company.
If you notice if you get banned from one you start to get banned from others? 🤷🏾♂️🤔
I've never been banned. Are you the bobs and vegene guy?
"What do other people hate that I don't mind"
I would look for houses somebody died in.
dating apps are absolutely fine. I'm only 5'11, normal looking, average job, and I get matches and likes and can date someone new each week. I cant imagine how easy it must be to legit good looking guys who are funny and wealthy
haha i look like bill burr with tattoos@@whomstd
You're already above average height which means you can't see your assessment of average job and and normal looking are probably equally off
Comments like this 😂😂 why are you watching this video then. You are honestly funnier than you think
i'm from england and white people under 30 - the average height was 5'11. It only goes lower when we add the minorities who skewed the average height
that LMNT box throw was sliiiick
Christ, this was brilliant!
As I woman who only started using dating apps in the last month, here’s my perspective: apps use male selection preferences (ie a focus on physical attractiveness) because women are the product being marketed. This is why women who use male selection strategies because they are not looking for long-term partners (or wrongfully assume they can get a long term partner from a hookup) benefit more than highly selective women. Of course, highly attractive men benefit the most.
If apps were interested in providing value instead of just making money they would take into account female selection strategy. My suggestion for this would be requiring a 1-2 minute video clip on profiles so we can observe body language, way of speaking, general mannerisms, and most importantly for women, how you interact with others. More stringent verification processes would also help.
Personally I don’t care about your hobbies or your job or any of that. I care about your values and integrity. These things are impossible to determine on a static profile, and they are ridiculously easy to lie about. So far I’ve found apps woefully inadequate and frustrating to interact with.
The problem with dating apps is that there's little incentive for them to work well. Premium dating platforms used to advertise on TV that a large percentage of their users found relationships (i.e. they got what they were paying for), but 'freemium' apps don't have that incentive. The demand is there, so they can provide a sub-optimal outcome and still make profits (a bit like new builds in the UK housing market).
It sounded like Rory was making a case for video clips to be added to dating profiles, which would be an interesting addition. It could potentially bring dating back to a '90s model, when video dating (being sat in a small studio in front of a camera and summarising yourself and what you're looking for from a partner) was a thing.
I think your last point is the key to a successful match. I met my gf through online dating, and we share the same life views and sense of humour - we both just 'get' the other (to the point where one of us will say or do something, and the other one will say "I was just thinking that!").
You wouldn’t know someone’s values and integrity unless you were on a date with them. But men will also tell you what you want to hear if you meet them in person
It sounds like you want dating to be even more like a job interview, which is the most un-romantic scenario possible. I personally wouldn't like doing video introductions because I would feel pressured to put on a performance and not act like my honest self. In fact I think it would encourage even more deceptive practices. You gotta delete that app, start asking out guys in real life for once, most of them are single so there's a good chance you won't be rejected. What's the worst that could happen?
@@xDUxEXcluSIvE That's true. I think it usually takes 3-6 months to have a good idea of a person's true character, which is why old fashioned meeting through friends and hanging out as a group first is kind of ideal imo, but if you miss that high school/college window you're sol on that front
@@user-og6hl6lv7p In the age of tiktok, twitter, and instagram, everyone records some of their life nowadays. You can't tell me that you have no videos with you in them in a normal setting hanging out with friends or family or whatever. That's what I'm talking about. Sorry if it wasn't clear. If people put on a performance it's usually easy to tell.
My suggestion doesn't matter anyway. No app would do it. They already make enough money (at least for now)
Also, I am 34 years old. I have only just started using apps. I have tried and tried for years to avoid them and "meet people in real life." It doesn't happen. Men are terrified of approaching, I wont find a someone I respect in a club, and the people in my immediate circle are taken or female. Third places are dead. People who volunteer are middle aged and above. It's not so easy to meet people irl anymore.
Not much novelty or insight. Not Chris'fault.
Can’t wait for this
Seemed like a lot of babbling.
He said a bunch of nowt. Conveluted.
In islam we have introduced marriage from like minded ppl from within our own tried and tested social circle.
That way you can test for longterm compatibility and verify the history of the partner and thier family.
Boomer doesn't understand dating apps. Shocking.
He spoke for 13 minutes and said nothing clearly. What was the main point? Find someone you think is really attractive but not everyone else will think so?
He made plenty of clear points. Maybe not answers per se, but certainly descriptions of how one might view the dating market. That the online dating market is less efficient than pre-online (e.g. good resources may go to waste / be unnoticed if market-filters are homogenous), and he made the connection to online dating describing the initial and limited filters (photo, text). The takeaway is that you'd probably need to get onboard with the filters to increase your chances of being seen at all, and that even then the mechanism of a homogenous filter isn't going to work well for as many people on the whole as pre-online-dating when you could see more of a person upfront.
He was super clear to me. Find a woman who is has negative traits that barely bother you, but positive traits that you love. Don't get a woman that is too attractive to too many men, because she will leave you. Find a nice 5 to 7/10 girl that you like spending time with and doesn't drive you nuts. Avoid overly attractive women unless they are for recreational use only. Also, try to find a woman in not so obvious places that are unique to YOU and your situation, so competition is lower or at least controlled. Also, AVOID ONLINE DATING AT ALL COSTS.
They're more like cattle markets 😂
If you are in the US and don't like doing hypothetical things, go to a state school for college instead of a University. The state school system focuses on hands on experience, whereas a university focuses on getting researchers.
State colleges are universities. The fuck are you on about?
@@leifiverson8549 In California the State university system is divided into University of California and State University. While not all states have this division if you look into what the local state school focuses on, research or teaching, you can determine if you'll get a hands on education or a theoretical based one. An example of this is University of California Berkeley verses California State University, Chico. The simplest way to find this divide is if the school has a PhD program or not. With a PhD program that university will focus on creating more PhDs and thus is about the research and publish or perish paradigm.
Ah, well, I graduated from the University of Wisconsin River Falls, which is a primarily undergraduate institution.
You can tell he's not American. People 100% buy cars like they buy houses here bruh
Is it just me or does Chris look very disinterested? Especially when he days back to the dating market when the guest was talking about hacked cars
he speaks as if he's writing a novel! awesome hahaha