USS Defiant NX-74205 : Let's kill some borg
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
This is our follow up video on the NX-74205 Defiant - an indepth look at the Lore of the Defiant from Star Trek Deep Space Nine. If you enjoy Lore of this type, let me know in the comments below!
Check out part one:
USS Defiant NX-74205 : Starfleet's Conservative War Mongering
• USS Defiant NX-74205 :...
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The Defiant was never meant to solo a Borg cube. The small, maneuverable frame mounted with powerful forward facing weapons implies that it was intended as a supplementary asset to a larger fleet or as part of a Defiant attack wing that would engage in swarming.
The argument that a single small ship was a failure because it was ultimately defeated by an overwhelming threat is, frankly, shallow thinking. Even if used properly, like as part of a Defiant based attack wing, there would have been losses. The ships are fit for their purpose, but they're not invincible.
The Defiant is akin to the Whitestar in B5, strong when alone but meant to run in wolf packs.
love that Can't avoid Sisko's pimphand for long
GREAT point about the distance between the neutral zone and Earth and the Defiant's presence at the initial encounter all the way to the Big E's arrival. The Admiral's ship has been destroyed (along with, presumably, many of the other front line vessels), and the Borg have plowed their way through line after line of Starfleet defenses all the way back to Earth, yet the Defiant stayed in the fight the whole way and is STILL there wreaking havoc.
There's also the fact that she's introduced visually firing PHOTON torpedoes at the Cube. This STRONGLY suggests that she's RUN OUT of Quantum torpedoes by this point. All of this adds up to the inescapable conclusion that the USS Ben Sisko's Mothafuckin Pimp Hand has been pushing the Borg's shit in for HOURS without pause.
Tough Little Ship indeed.
"Non-agression pact" and "Ally" aren't even close to the same thing. The Federation and the Romulans essentially had one during TNG and they had one with the Cardassians in the early part of DS9. That's where the Neutral Zone and the Demilitarized Zone came from.
Was going to comment the same thing
Good point.
The benefit that the Dominion had from it was simply that they were allowed to duck into Romulan space to attack and retreat from the Federation. Which is much different than having Romulan ships fighting Federation and Klingon forces.
This is the comment I was looking for.
Here's the thing. The Romulans and Dominion DID have a nonaggression pact. But as "In the Pale Moonlight" brought out, it went much further than the two agreeing not to fight each other. The Romulans allowed Dominion ships to ambush and strike Federation vessels through Romulan territory. This can be likened to what Cambodia and Laos did for North Vietnam in the Vietnam War. Sure, not overtly allied, but from the Federation/Klingon point of view, they might as well have been.
The Defiant was a pure warship but the Blue shirts complained and wanted to do science with it, maybe.
Darn blue shirts...always putting peoples lives in danger
Also, the science that it performed was all with 3rd party equipment. With the wormhole comm buoy, they were just interfacing with the buoy, while with One Little Ship, the science was primarily being conducted by probes and the Rubicon, the Defiant was just extra computer processing and as a Convoy Escort. You know, it's official role class.
Probing in force.
The Constitution class, the Miranda class, the Excelsior class, and even the Galaxy class ships were built for both exploration and defensive war, but only the Defiant was a pure warship. But since Starfleet are primarily explorers and with the Defiant being the closes ship to the Wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant, the Defiant also served as a science vessel when it wasn't fighting the Borg or Dominion.
Ehhhh. You can argue that it's sensor package could punch above it's weight because it was designed to make the weapons accurate, but even then unless the science was simply "I came, I saw, I pondered," I doubt the Federation would send a Defiant class to research it.
The Defiant is one of my favorite ships of all time. I'd love to see a bunch of Defiant Class ships hunt in a pack in a future Trek series.
"You stole someone's joke."
But SFDebris literally coined the best possible fan name for this ship and there's no way around that okay just use it and be thankful.
Sfdebris rocks..
I just kinda imagining Starfleet naming a ship class the sisko class, oh that might make the other powers a little wary
Emissary-class has a nicer ring to it, but then again the Federation was never a fan of Sisko being a religious figure.
The Sisko class: A larger version of Defiant, with 6x forward pulse phaser cannons, 4x type XII arrays, and both a dorsal and ventral 360 degree traverse rapid fire quantum torpedo turrets......also with decorative fuzzy dice, 8-ball shifter, chain steering wheel, and a trailer hitch with dangling truck nutz. Oh and an extra big cup holder for a 44 ounce cup of orange soda from AM PM.
"It's an exploration ship, we promise" - Starfleet design core.
22steve5150 USS Sisko... was outfitted with a “borrowed” Romulan and cloak... I swear they just found it lying around
I will point out there is no Kirk class ships
I also think though that the Defiant-class was meant to be quickly mass produced and swarmed in large numbers. This is the reason why I believe its armaments were limited compared to the other classes -- its spartan design was meant for war time. The other classes were heavier investments meant for exploration and science.
There is no way some Federation engineer didn't have a peak at the Romulan cloaking device and…well…completely reverse engineer it.
A certain section, shall we say ?
They did but the Treaty of Algeron prohibits the FED to built cloaking devices of their own. So as long as this treaty is in effect even Sec 31 couldn't openly built ship with cloaks.
casbott Thet already have knowledge. It is the treaty with the Romulans that ban the Federation from using and ban further researching on cloaking technology.
If you read the books after the series, certain section uses cloak technology far superior than what is available to the Federation enemies.
Cloaking technology had been around for at least a few centuries by that point, and the Federation knew how they worked, but because of the treaty they signed with the Romulans they can't actively pursue the technology without breaking that treaty. Sure, there have been secret attempts by certain groups of Federation personnel to develop and even improve on the technology (such as the phasing cloak which sparked the accident that trapped half of the USS Pegasus in an asteroid), but when they were discovered they were severely punished for jeopardizing the peace.
As to whether Section 31 would also want to make a cloaking device for their own use, who knows, maybe they already have them. But they wouldn't be able to share them with the rest of Starfleet without exposing their operations.
Limerickman The books are not canon
That Section 31 agents could show up and disappear with little to no trace any and everywhere that they please, it should be a foregone conclusion that they not only have cloaking capabilities but have also taken that tech to the next level. Given that Sloan was transported away as he was being shot and no one was left the wiser means that a nearly if not totally untraceable form of transporter system exists and that the cloaked ship that it would be on was undetectable at the very heart of Romulan space shows that there is no question about it. The only other explanation would be transwarp beaming, and im not even going to go there.
People also act like the Defiant class was built with the idea that a single Defiant class ship would be able to beat a Borg cube single handedly, which is stupid. Since being small, having a very small crew, and being easy to mass produce are all design requirements of the Defiant class (as opposed to being typically huge starships with a larger number of pulse phaser cannons), it is obvious that the point was to have a large number of these small ships that could wolf-pack cubes, and as well as the single vessel did against the Cube in First Contact, a small squadron of 6 or 8 of these badass little ships is probably a match for a Cube.
I hope if we ever get a new star trek show in the 25th century (like Star Trek Online), that we get to see a pack of Defiant class ships ripping a borg cube to BITS >8D
The general idea of building a ship that can stand up to a cube on its own is questionable swing just how strong those damn things are.
@@nerdygerdy Why not both?
@@Janoha17 Indeed!
The Defiant only performed below expectations in Sector 001 because it took heavy damage from friendly Oberth self-destructions.
Oh yes. The defiant by itself is not capable of taking on an entire fleet by itself, it would just get picked off. It makes sense that it would sit inside DS9's shields and prepare to warp whatever survivors are left out in case the Klingons won.
The Defiant class this prototype spawned will completely change the history of the Federation and surrounding sectors, just like the Defiant itself changed the course of the Dominion war, let me illustrate.
The Defiant class is a game changer for a post Dominion Starfleet. It terms of size and function it is effectively a Federation Bird of Prey. But it eats Klingon Bird's of Prey for breakfast, hell as a snack. Having such a powerful SMALL ship that can be mass produced means that they can have a lot of them to cover various sectors. They could be used as the local patrol ships thereby making each Federation world a tough nut to crack instead of having to rely on a visiting fleet for defense and security.
The numbers advantage cannot be overstated, with fleetyards no longer under attack and dedicated to repairing battle damage on larger ships, production can be ramped up to replace current fleet ships and then some, (maybe even retiring older models from frontline and secondary duty [Miranda, maybe Excelsior] using them just for supply runs/low intensity missions modified to run with skeleton crews, freeing up a lot of personnel). Also the small size means smaller shipyards can build it, greatly magnifying the number of manufacturing sites, (The mirror universe Deep Space Nine station built one with plans stolen by the alternate Miles O'Brien) this leaves the larger shipdocks free if necessary.
Another big advantage (huge actually) is the small crew size, approximately 40 crew. Most Starfleet vessels have crew compliments ten times that amount, give or take a factor of 2 (200 - 800), this means many more ships can be crewed for the same number of personnel, a important factor with the manpower (humanoidpower?) shortage in the post war years.
To give you an idea, here's a little mental exercise, A Sovereign class has 855 crew and is 3.2 million tons, a Defiant class has 40 crew and is 0.35 million tons. So you could get 9 times as many ships for the given mass. Not an accurate equivalent because of the manufacturing detail required, although you can use smaller shipyards without tying up the largest one. But you can have 21 times as many ships with the same amount of personal, but not all of them are combat crew. So let's split the difference, 15 Defiants per Sovereign.
Now put 15 Defiants up against the Scimitar and watch what happens. They would swarm and the Scimitar would never be able to focus on one long enough to finish it off (as soon as substantially hit it would pull back while it's shield regenerated, and even a seriously lucky hit wouldn't matter, except to the crew involved, and they have a good chance of abandoning ship anyway) and as soon as the Scimitar fired 30 or so secondary phasers (and maybe a primary if it's lucky enough to be aiming the right way) and torpedoes from all the Defiants would target where the shot came from and at least one or two would score a hit. Then using that all the ships would aim their secondaries to keep it 'illuminated' and then bring main guns to bear.
And while a much busier special effects sequence, it would also be much shorter [oops, 4th wall]. The rest of the Romulans arrive to find the Defiants finishing minor repairs.
One of the differences of the Defiant design is that the bridge is buried in the middle of the hull and completely protected. And I've read somewhere that it was supposed to set a trend for future designs, with internally positioned bridges and the nacelles blended into the hull - like the Steamrunner class's nacelles. With the success of the Defiant it may set a new paradigm for Starfleet design as well with single hulled ships with nacelles built in and a hidden bridge, making future ships much more robust.
The landing gear which was hardly ever used in DS9 because the writers forgot about it actually serves a strategic purpose as well. Small colony worlds just starting or Federation outpost can have one or two sitting on a launch pad (instead of or in addition to roundabouts), important if they are near a border or far from other support, and they can be kept concealed in bunkers on larger worlds ready for deployment at a moment's notice, effectively as very, very large fighter/bombers. And it allows numbers to be hidden, attack a Federation outpost and suddenly Defiants are launched and well, kill you. If intelligence gets rumors of an impending attack they can be smuggled inside transports etcetera. Their compact size and ability to be left on planetbound facilities opens up a lot of options, including deception and just plain old deterrence.
This also lends them to being used as an atmospheric fighter, they can strafe ground forces and facilities and generally dominate any planetside battle as a combination fighter/bomber/ground attack plane/attack helicopter/flying tank with heavy shields. Put one of these up against a whole battalion of AT-AT Walkers that wandered in by mistake from the wrong franchise and watch the carnage (sorry Empire fanboys, but even you lot can't argue that*).
And if modified, the landing gear could allow it to stick to the saucer section of a larger ship. Useful for using the more extensive facilities onboard a older multirole ship.
As the Federation re-equips post Dominion, they will most likely focus on smaller, less crew intensive ships. The Intrepid class (and the tiny Nova) can replace the Galaxy for most purposes, (freeing them up to be general support ships within Federation space along with the Nebula's, and if there's another war, as tenders with docking brackets for repair and resupply in field, unless stripped out and modified to be battlecruisers again). If expecting trouble an Intrepid can be accompanied by a couple of Defiants in the escort role, using the more extensive facilities (medical, better replicators, holodecks ect) onboard to support them. An Intrepid can also be assigned to squads or wolfpacks of Defiants to provide support for ongoing operations (especially with their sensors), or they could use Akira's if they're feeling mean.
It gives the Federation heavy firepower anywhere within it's borders at a moment's notice, making life much harder for pirates and other vermin, with too many dangerously overpowering patrol ships to avoid.
And any hostile incursion into Federation space will be meet by a multitude of Defiants from nearby sectors, rushing in to support the Steamrunners and Akira's that are raining torpedoes on the interlopers. The Steamrunner being the long range border patrol ships and first line of defense against OUTSIDE invaders.
And once Voyager's new technology is incorporated into the design they not only become more combat effective, they could possibly become much faster strategically. With either quantum slipstream or coaxial warp drives fitted or using transwarp conduits situated throughout Federation space, large numbers of the ships can be called to any trouble spot quickly, overwhelming hostiles with instant massive amardas. Not only guaranteeing victory without much combat losses, but probably surrender with such a display of force.
It has been mentioned in the expanded universe that the Dominion amarda that disappeared going through the wormhole was in fact jumped forward twenty years into the future and will decend screaming upon an unsuspecting Deep Space Nine. If so the Dominion fleet is dead, dead, dead. Local next-gen Defiants will cut them to pieces, keeping them busy, and then the rest of Starfleet will arrive to mop up. And by then due to Romulan detente Starfleet will most likely employ cloaks (maybe even phasing cloaks), just to make it more one sided.
This means that no local power has a chance against the Federation and barring some completely out of context threat like the Dominion and the Borg were and the Iconians in Star Trek Online are, and the Typhon pack from Star Trek Online realistically aren't. Cardassia will obviously become a Federation protectorate and the Breen surrendered, the Federation would not allow another hostile power to form. Besides the Romulans trusts the Federation much more than the Breen, and especially if the supernova plot is cannon the remaining Romulan survivors will join the Vulcans and therefore the Federation. The Klingon Empire will never again war against the Federation, Martok likes humans and he's a very popular leader, and they will suspect trickery again by an outside power if any Klingon suggest war with the Federation. In fact they will become all but Federation members in name in a generation or two tops. (But Star Trek always needs one cold war opponent of equal power and one super opponent that can only be defeated by original thinking). The Federation will continue to expand outwards, with neighboring systems making non aggression treaties and eventually through diplomacy and cultural contamination becoming Federation allies and then members.
And that may be part of the problem with a post Voyager series, the Federation is now just too formidable to be challenged by a rival power in the neighborhood (and too on guard, especially if Betazoids become more militant after their occupation), only by a McGuffin from beyond. Even the Borg are a bit neutered, after all they've lost their transwarp network and were repeatedly spanked by a lone Intrepid class ship. The only canon opponent strong enough to defeat an armada of Defiants would be the Voth, if they decide, yep, we did come from Earth, we want it back now, and that's not going to happen.
So the adventures would be just discoveries, moral quandaries and weird scientific anomaly of the week.
Now imagine the Defiant mark II replacement.
*[And the most amazing thing about my arguments is I actually have a girlfriend IRL, 🖖even I'm suprised. And no, she's not my long lost twin sister, which is such a cliche that no self-respecting franchise would include it, seriously, what hack would write this stuff.?]
casbott Regarding the Expanded Universe since the Defiant was a short-range vessel it was decided to design the Phoenix class mobile base, basically a station that could move and build/transport/repair Starfleet ships deep inside enemy territory.
It was 2 km long and stored 20 Defiants ready to be deployed inside the internal hangar.
The First Primaris Cato Sicarius
Fucking hell.. Can you imagine that thing warping in, launching twenty defiants and ordering you to drop shields, power down weapons, and prepare to be boarded?
The damn things like the star destroyer of the Star Trek uni, only.. You know, better. :P
I'm pretty happy with this summary, but what about 8472? Krenim Imperium maybe? I also like the idea regarding the Voth, I think it's a shame we only got 1 episode of them. What if the Borg assimilated the planet in "Blink of an Eye" and could research at rapid speeds and disseminate? Or some kind of future timetravel event - a la "Drone" - whereby the Borg assimilate future tech?
There is one looming threat to the Federation that you forgot to mention, and even those who responded forgot to mention:
The Kelvan Empire, masters of the entire Andromeda Galaxy, not just a Quadrant of it, the whole thing, and its _bigger_ than the Milky Way. They are already on their way, using generational starships of extremely high Warp capabilities to cross the 2 million LY gap. They want to conquer the Milky Way because rising radiation levels are making Andromeda less and less habitable, where it'll be completely uninhabitable in 10K years. They arrive in the 123rd Century, and their technological path is completely alien to everything in the Milky Way, and they're advancing it even further as they travel. If the Federation fails to unite the entire Galaxy into one Federation by that time, they'll need to convince the whole Galaxy to form an alliance, drop their squabbles, and work together to take on the Kelvans together, because I don't think that even 99 more centuries of what you said will be enough to push the Kelvans back, as they've been a conquering civilization for millennia already, and have a huge head start on war tech.
Must agree on pretty much every point, except the one about no local power challenging the Federation. The Romulan Star Empire is playing a very long game, and they are perfectly happy to see the Federation build thousands--or even millions--of Defiants. Because the blow will fall all the harder when it happens.
Item Primus: The RSE has developed artificial singularities to power their warp cores, making them dilithium-independent (the odd nomadic black-hole-dwelling life-form taking up residence notwithstanding). While all other races in the Galaxy continue to mine and deploy dilithium crystals, the RSE are looking forward to the day when the money runs out.
Item Secundus: The RSE has developed, indeed was the first species in the Alpha Quadrant to develop, practical cloaking technology. This may not seem like much, after a century and a half of familiarity with it, but the chance to remain hidden from your enemies, even while traveling at high warp, is of immense strategic, not just tactical, importance.
Item Tertius: The RSE has developed trilithium weapons (go rewatch Generations; it was Romulan technology), which can switch off all fusion reactions within a star. This allows the Romulans to turn off any star they so desire.
...AND THEY HAVE A PLAN! One fine day, the Romulan Star Empire will launch one or more cloaked missile (powered by artificial singularities) at every single sun in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants whose solar systems yield dilithium (except Romulus, of course). Then, once the missiles (or small ships, if need be) are on their way, they will demand the total and abject surrender of all dilithium-using powers at once. They will announce that the missiles are approaching at high warp, cloaked, and armed with trilithium. All governments will surrender, all Fleets stand down, before the might of the Romulan Star Empire, or their suns will go nova.
Most will laugh. Until Sol goes. And Qo'nos. And Vulcan. And Andoria. And Tellar. And Bajor. And Cardassia. And then the Fleets will jump to evacuate the remaining systems, while some governments will fall over themselves to surrender, to sue for peace--and survival--at any cost. But the evacuation points will be based on old plans. Ships full of terrified civilians will arrive in strange systems, unfamiliar with local conditions, uncertain if--that--should be happening, even as their new local sun goes out.
Ships that escape the blast waves will wander the spacelanes, despairing of ever finding respite, like alt-Riker in Borg-are-everywhere world, until their fuel runs out. They will refuel, as they can, but eventually their crystals will fail. The hordes of Defiants will hammer the borders of the RSE, but the Praetor, the Senate, the important families, and the technical staff will all have long since been evecuated--since the start of hostilities, in fact--to secret systems hidden throughout the quadrant, in dilithium-free ships traveling under cloak. Even if Romulus falls, and Remus, and the entire current Empire, none of it will matter in the end. Let the Federation crow over its victories, its unstoppable war machine. In the end, their ships starved of sustenance, they will come, hat in hand, to buy shipping in Romulan hulls at any price. To ship resources. To ship colonists. To protect against piracy. To have a home planet. And the Romulans will assure them of plentiful shipping, available at reasonable prices. Very reasonable prices. Reasonable, at least, to the Romulans....
There is no obligation on the Federation to allow a rival government to use Federation space to facilitate Dominion military objectives. To mine the wormhole was just a fortification of their own borders.
One could argue they we're just..... Uh... Building a wall..... Bet that joke will trigger someone. 😂
It would, if the situations were even vaguely similar.
A. Bajoran Neutral Space. B. If not there, then war would break out over the next thing. Sisko might not be popular among true pacifists at Starfleet Command, but it was clear that the Dominion would've built up it's forces and disrupted internal politics to the point it could just swoop in and take over.
I just want them to explain how a mine can self replicate, AND cloak. Then explain how the things aren't half the size of the Defiant, minimal. THEN have a payload big enough to cluster explode, which means thrusters. The whole mine field was almost as bad as a deus ex machina as Voyager's deployable armor. Only, DS9 is good...
Does this mean Rom is a god?
Power a largish replicator with a small warp engine and that's half the problem gone (replication and explosion). And cloaks don't need to be particularly large either, especially if you don't care that they know something is cloaked there, only that they can't find exact locations.
In regards to the defiant class I think it was designed to operate in a squad/ akin to fighter aircraft. No fighter enters combat alone they have wingmen. Just watch sacrifice of angles / the liberation of ds9. There it had two maranda class ships operating as wingmen/squad. Now picture a squad of 3 defendant class ships, working together with fire support from an akira or similar. That's how the ship was ment to operate. I think anyway. What you guys think?
That happened on Voyager with the Prometheus class.. two defiants ran support for an Akira
OK so it’s just an oversized x-wing
TheCoool31 maybe using fighter was bad example. But picture an akira or sovereign class laying down fire and three defiants move in for the kill. So prob best to call them the menover or assault group. X wing are the fighters sisko orders to their deaths trying to piss off the cardies in liberation of ds9
Reasonably maneuverable, powerful forward punch, excellent defenses compared to other ships of its size...other than the cloaking part, seems like it.
Though one might argue, that the Akira was just there to take a beating, while the Defiants class ships beat the crap out of the Prometheus.
U.S.S Defiant was quite the MultiRole/Purpose ship.
Federation should have manufactured hundreds of them.
They did at peak production the Federation was spitting out 300 ships either yearly or monthly.
Shame we didn't see it on screen.
It was not a multirole ship, it was a warship that was *barely* competent at doing non-combat missions......and the Feds should still have manufactured hundreds of them.
Do keep in mind the Defiant is also known by Fans as the Glass Cannon.
I wager the Defiant was little more then a stop gap solution. To hold the Federation over while the Akira, Steamrunner and Sovereign Class ships where being Developed and produced.
I believe this video addresses how the "glass cannon" moniker makes utterly zero fucking sense. In battle after battle, besides her formidable weaponry, the Defiant shows the ability to take one hell of a pounding and keep on going, particularly for such a small and cheap/easy to build ship.
I remember the comments in the original series, about how a Constitution class ship could wipe out whole planets in minutes, but this was when they seemed to be a lot of hyperbole in Trek. I remember in one episode, a couple of hand phasers were supposed to hold off entire armies of primatives, yet later models of phaser don't seem to have anything like that kind of power.
They had some inconsistencies for sure
I'm of the opinion that, the Constitution was designed as a general purpose cruiser, something that could do any job Starfleet put in front of it, be that exploration or serving as a frontline warship. The Defiant on the other hand, was designed from the outset to be a warship, Starfleet's first purebred warship in almost three hundred years, but since this is Starfleet we're talking about, of course they are going to shoehorn it into doing science, even when it wasn't desinged for it... And naturally, when its war-time, there will be that guy in the corner, whimpering in terror about how he just wanted to study comets.
@@weldonwin Science was useful in a pitched battle even, analysing enemy shields ect, imparting a Federation warp signature on the main power supply of defense platforms so they destroy their own generator. A lot of Star Trek combat involves a battle of adapting to the enemies tech and vice versa. "Captain, if we resonate a tachyon burst and reverse the polarity…"
It's basically a bit Dr Who where you can techno babble your way to victory.
Cool stuff! Defiant also fought the Lakota which was also a beefed up Excelsior Class
USS Captain Sisko's Righteous Pimp Hand
I think I was the one that ribbed you about the SFDebris line, and it was intended as a rib, not a complaint.
Also something to consider: many believe (and I think you touched on this too) that the Defiant-class was meant to act in squadrons of ships, not as a single attack vessel. So if a single Defiant-class could hold off againat a Borg Cube for over an hour, imagine what several 3-5 ship wings of them could do.
And lastly....yeah sorry but I have to disagree with the Fed Warship idea. Yes even the old Connies had a ton of firepower for their time and could devastate a planet. And so could most starships. Thing is, Federation exploration vessels normally worked alone...just too much space to cover in fleets. All too often, they could run into a true warship or an alien fleet or a superweapon and have ZERO backup if fighting started. Thus, even exploration and science vessels required the ability to defend against threats AT LEAST strong enough to kill a world.
Constitutions had to go into unknown space alone and unaided. Even though they were explorers first, they still needed the protection and firepower to protect themselves and others, to literally fill ANY role needed.
So no, they are not warships. Not pure science vessels. They are like all true explorers, capable of many things all at once, with no one role defining them save the desire to go forward.
That was a really great video
The Federation has the Defiant not classified as a warship but as escort. On another note, The vessel is one heck of a tough little ship. It withstood the Borg for hours on end, causing serious damage in the process. I get that the Defiant was supposed to be a confidential prototype, but after proving itself on multiple occasions, it escapes me that it wasn't mass produced. As a P.S. I's like to personally thank you, Lore for giving me a wrench today. I'm greatly looking forward to helping you moderate your streams. Thanks so much!
We have evidence to believe they did mass produce the defiant.. We see atleast 2-4 in voyager - during fights with the borg and romulans.. and another defiant was ready when the original defiant was destroyed - .. So I believe it was.
hmm.. That does make sense. I will sheepishly admit I have to rewatch voyager again. I get so preoupied with TOS and TNG I let things slip lol
The Defiant-class is more like a fast destroyer or torpedo boat, designed for 4-6 ships to attack as a squadron. DS9 used it more like a Coast Guard cutter or corvette until the Dominion War. Worf put it to great use in FC coordinating with the fleet. Defiant-class ships are not made for solo missions. That's what Sovereigns are for.
You see two of them in Message in a Bottle my favorite episode of voyager where we are introduced to a new Federation warship the Prometheus which packed the firepower of a sovereign with speed and maneuverability of an intrepid. Many dislike the multi vector mode but me I love it.
Let's just agree that they should have started mass production earlier, and whatever their production schedule was, they should have increased it. Of course for story reasons they aren't going to have 50 copies of the "hero ship" in a given Dominion war battle fighting alongside Defiant herself, but realistically, I think that's how it would have went down.
Of course the Defiant got stomped by the Borg,
Warf was commanding it.
The only way the Defiant makes sense is in packs. Two go in unloads on the shields, third comes in and blasts through. For a crew of fifty it has the same firepower of an Akira class vessel. For 150 crew members you have three ships instead of 1500 for three Akira.
Awesome! Thanks, dude!
Legend has it that on Bajor this ship is known as ‘The Fist of The Emissary.’
Nice. The Defiant is my 3rd favorite Trek ship. Ent D, Ent E, Defiant. It's such s unique and badass little ship. Love it.
great video.
I can't recall the episode, but you are right. Kirk directly stated his ship was a ship of war. All this peace and exploration stuff came later (mostly in TNG)
A non-aggression pact does not equal allies. The Romulans were just staying out of it because it benefited them to see their adversaries beat each other up.
Your argument is with main characters of the shows
Awesome.
Awesome
Considering other ships directly get destroyed when attacked by a Borg Cube it is a good sign of its capabilities that the Defiant was able to fight on after taking extensive hull damage without loosing weapons or maneuverability.
Defiant Facts!
- The Defiant wasn't destroyed. It got blasted to hell, where it regrouped for a second charge.
- Once every year, the Defiant throws one lucky starship into a neutron star.
- Sharks have a week dedicated to the Defiant.
3:30 I asked John Eaves about this during his attendance of the Irish Trekkie's livestream, but my main disappointment with that battle was that the Defiant did not engage its "last-ditch weapon" as it was described to be intended in the DS9 Technical Manual. For those who don't know, the Technical Manual specifies that the "nose" could be launched as a giant missile.
tough little ship
Sisko introduces the Defiant as the prototype for what would have been a battlefleet of such vessels. They were intended to cumulatively overwhelm a Borg cube's defenses. No wonder a single vessel of that class failed to beat the cube.
The reason people say the defiant is the first federation ship build for war is because it's the first federation ship build with combat taking precedent over exploration, it's an anti-galaxy class. Galaxy class vessels are exploration/diplomacy craft that can kick ass. Defiant class vessels are warships that can explore.
The Original series federation ships were designed for peaceful exploration first and also sector/border defense of the federation space to include planets and citizens. By the way, USS Pimp Hand? LOOOOOOLLLLL, that caught me off guard but was totally hilarious!
The one major weakness of the uss defiant at least from ds9 point of view was that the defiant class was slower at maxium warp then most of the fleet at warp 9.5 vs 9.6 for most of the starfleet but 9.9 got uprated akira and nebula class mesage in a bottle and intrepid warp 9.975 amd sovergine at warp 9.985. And the pronethus frome message in a bottle at warp 9.999 given that fact that defiant could only reach warp 9.5 fpr about 36 minutes a heavy running fired fight from the typhone sector all the way to earth would of pushed the defiant way beyond her specs. Though knowing her captain at the time commamder worf he would of figered a way to push the defiant hard the running fire fight the second borg battle of sector 001
Like many have said HUNDREDS of these should've been mass produced. The Feds at this time, as said in same "pale moon light" episode by the Romulan Ambassador was under a manpower shortage an a small battleship like this DIDNT need a big or even moderate sized crew to competently man. Red Squads episode with Jake an Nog i beleive also featured a SKELETON crew of elite CADETS commanding one one these, kicking standard Dominion ship's asses with it and seriously damaging, ALMOST beating a full size Domonion battleship. Only losing due to their inexperience and that it was a sorta experimental supership. So if just 1 of these can stall an beat the hell outta a Borg ship before FINALLY havin to breal off. Even A small stealthed fleet of thesd wouldve been a nasty surprise for a Dominion force to suddenly find themselves up against ESPECIALLY if Sisko and the gang basically did the equivalent of screaming "now" over all channels and a big fleet of these suddenly seemingly appears outta nowhere and starts hitting Dominion troops from all sides. Hit an run tactics wouldve made the fight way more even and the sorta mass attacks wouldve been suicide to the Dominion once a big threat like this made an appearance. Question is why they never did. Wouldve helped and made a huge difference at say either battle for DS9 even IF that Domion large reinforcement fleet HAD come through. They'd been sitting ducks had Defiant been flanked by 40 or 50 of these just sitting there waiting for'em. As again each is armored, powered and VERY well armed for their relatively small size. An is literally a tiny battleship with near dreadnaught class firepower
I just saw the episode where they introduced the Defiant.
It was built to fight the BORG!
It's biggest problem: it's over-gunned and over-powered, it almost tore itself apart during trial runs.
Me thinks that's a good problem to have. 😂
I think that the Federation would've let the Cardassian Union become part of the Dominion without a second thought if the UFP didn't already know that the Founders were busy infiltrating Federation, Starfleet and, I presume, Klingon political and command structures as well. This underhanded infiltration scheme is what led the Federation to taking the actions it did, IMO.
The thing I think a lot of people miss about the Defiant and her namesake class is that this ships aren't cruisers like the Constitution or the Ferderation's answer to the Romulan Star Empire's D'daridex battlecruisers or battleships (depending on how you look at Romulan ship designs). The Defiant is small and agile. She can punch well above her weight class, but is built to run in packs or to support cruisers. The Defiant class is the Federation's destroyer. From that perspective the Defiant class exceeds expectations when you consider her endurance.
The Defiant is a tough little escort ship.
great video!! enjoy the weekend. The USS Defiant is the UFP/Starfleet's version of the Klingon Bird of Prey. it would be cool to see a now UFP Amb.Worf to the Klingon Empire take a Galaxy Class as his flagship & order modifications to convert the lower part of the stardrive section to house a Defiant class & add hidden warp nacelles to the saucer section in the back compact like the Defiant when the Saucer is separate to the stardrive & install a cloaking device for it.
I never believed the Defiant alone could defeat the Borg. The Defiant was the first of a new fleet of combat capable starships created to defend the Federation from aggressively powerful, deadly threats. One ship wasn't going to cut it.
Defiant motto "On Going Mission - TO KICK ASS"
Good video
Imagine imagine what would have happened if Starfleet had sent an actual entire fleet made up of defiant class ships to take on the borg cube I mean hell that's what it was made for so why wasn't the entire fleet made up of defiant class ships
I totally agree with the fact that The ships were well armed especially the ones expected to go where no one has gone before. The Aries class/Axanar drops in like a perfect puzzle piece to canon . Let alone the first enterprise NX class Learned early on we need bigger guns. 😄
That bit about using the Romulan cloak in the Alpha Quadrant? I would've included Bashir saying "Well, I won't tell the Romulans if you don't", followed by you talking about how reassuring that is (not) given that Bashir's genetically engineered brain is impervious to Romulan mind probes and every one else's isn't.
Tough little ship ;)
James, never mess with Hawk..er...Sisko or he might just put on a pair of sunglasses & pull out a shiny .44 Magnum Revolver on you... The Defiant was Hawk...er...Sisko's ride...
I completely agree with your calling the Constitution class as "Warships first." The second you put weapons on a ship it is a Warship. Period.
"Right about....WHEN?, ENSIGN?"
The writers didn't forget anything. The Defiant was shown to be docked and protected by the stations shields during the first battle of DS9 against the Klingons. It could probably use it's own shields if the station's failed. In the 2nd Battle of DS9 against the Dominion, it fought a small detachment of Dominion fighters *away* from the main fleet. No, it should never take any fleet head-on by itself. That would be suicide.
Then they should have had foresight to include a bit of dialogue.
It seems a little crazy to me that this single little ship armed with just 2 phaser cannons could possibly be that much more powerful than much larger and more heavily armed capital ships like the Galaxy or Nebula classes.
I could see how Defiants could be better in the sense that they are smaller and cheaper, allowing them to be mass produced and used in groups to overwhelm larger ships, but it just doesn’t seem reasonable that one Defiant can absolutely fuck the shit of multiple larger warships.
I love the way the..it was either the Cardassians of the Romulans who said, starfleet ships are the most heavily armed science ships in the quadrant.
4:12 - You forget the act of aggression of the Dominion. Think of destruction of the USS Odyssey and the colonist on New Bajor and all the intel the Dominion already gathered off the Alpha Quadrant. Besides, Cardassia dit not became a member of the Dominion, it was absorbed by the Dominion and certainly nearing the end of the war the Dominion brutally killed hundreds of millions of Cardassians by leveling cities. The question still remains: Would the Dominion attacked the Federation at all if the Federation did not mine the entrance to the wormhole?
The Enterprise was a great ship well armed but polite. Like a well dressed gentleman with a concealed carry armament. The Defiant was a street fighter.
A in depth look at the man behind the pimp hand should be dune!
You know for a pimp hand you see it getting tore up a lot!
The USS You Better Fucking Run Boy.
"...Defiant fought valiantly..."
I see what you did there.
When did the class change from Valiant to Defiant Class?
They were designed to fight the borg, ben sisko said it himself
Wow, a video that get's the lore wrong in less than a minute. Nice.
Hey. Can you do a check on what happened to the Enterprise crew in between Star Trek Generations and Star Trek First Contact?
The Defiant wasn't heavily damaged at the First Battle of Deep Space 9.
On the contrary the only major system effected was the cloak. The rest of the ship was able to marginally outpace the Klingon Pursuit.
The reason it wasn't used, is two fold:
2: (Second reason first for obvious reasons later) : It was too heavily outnumbered, outside the station's shields it would have simply been picked apart by the Klingon FLEET that was present.
1: Tactical Objectives. The Federation isn't trying to fight the Klingons here. They are trying to secure the Detapa council and prevent the Klingons from getting them. This means the main focus is on the protection of the Cardassians, not on the attacking of a fleet of ships. This is one of the two possible reasons as to why the Klingons didn't destroy the docked Defiant. The other being that it could have been in the area protected by the third shield generator that didn't get taken off-line during the attack. Both sides were focused on the Cardassians. Neither side really wanted to start a war with the others. Keep in mind the Khitomer Accords was the final peace treaty, but even in the years before, since the Organian Peace Demand, you usually only ended up with skirmishes between the two. Which is what this would have been seen as, by both parties.
It seems likely the Romulans knew that the Federation wouldn't keep to the restrictions on the cloaking device. They had no way to control its use, though I wouldn't put it past them to have some kind of monitoring system embedded in it. The restrictions likely served two purposes: 1) to mollify internal political opposition to the deal so the Romulans could get intel on the Dominion 2) to use the Federation's violation of the agreement as leverage for any future negotiations. It also seems likely the Federation understood this, giving Sisko the green light to pay it little more than lip service.
The Romulans of all people wouldn't have trusted a simple agreement with no enforcement so I agree they totally expected the Federation to violate it because it is exactly what they would do.
even though the power of the ships weapons can be used for war they can be used for defense as space carries with it large threats. as what killed the dinosaurs was an asteroid the size of new jersey. you need more than just a pop gun to stop that going towards your ship. and considering what the defiant's track record is in combat it was definitely warship first explorer almost nonexistent(lack of proper med bay, small shuttle pod 2 if lucky and mostly forward based phaser and torpedo armaments.)
you can also move the effing ship, and they have tractor/repulsor beams that can pull or push large objects (or even push the ship away) in order to avoid collision. Also by then they had photon torpedoes that could borrow into a rogue asteroid and blow it up from within.
im just saying that just because you have something that can be used as a weapon doesnt mean it was exclusively used as such. check his phaser videos.
Filling a couple Oberth class ships with scrap and throwing them at it would solve the problem also... They're barely useful as guided torpedoes... at least with the mass slamming into something at warp 4 or 5, it might just take something out with it.
To be honest, another one of the really stupid things about star trek is that the insane speeds those ships reach in sublight travel....I think full impulse speed brings them up to 25% light speed (more than 6 times faster than a super mac round from Halo) and these starships weigh hundreds of thousands or in the case of the larger ones, a couple of million tons. Basically if the Voyager (700,000 metric tons) slams into something at full impulse (around 74,700 km/sec) the kinetic energy would be somewhere around 4.7 billion megatons of energy....or about 47 times more powerful than the asteroid impact that wiped out the dinosaurs. It would destroy a planet, let alone a Borg cube. Somehow the possibility of using their own ships' kinetic energy as weapons never occurs to the Federation or really anyone except the Dominion with their attack fighter suicide runs, which is pretty strange considering most every decent sized starship in that universe is a potential planet destroying doomsday machine unto itself.
Don't mess with the Sisko lol
Twice I've started this video from the beginning and twice my Amazon Alexa activated almost immediately. Anyone else? Alexa is turned on by Lore's voice... literally.
USS Defiant was such a badass because it had plot armor. Defiant-class vessels crewed by other crews? They get punked like the USS Valiant if they try to be as badass as Defiant.
Tough little ship
"little?"
Wasn’t the defiant class (warship) meant to be part of a fleet. Therefore a fleet of these ship class would easily take out the Borg, rather than a load of mix and matched ships.
There’s all this talk about “was Starfleet a military organization or not?” What if, instead of being similar to the US Navy, it was more like the US Coast Guard? They do patrols and defense, but they also do research and rescue operations. Maybe post-Dominion Starfleet was more Navy, but at the start it was more CG.
The science it conducted was all done with 3rd party equipment. 1st there was the wormhole comm buoy, where the Defiant was just a launching platform, and then with One Little Ship, the anomaly inspecting was being done with probes and a runabout with Defiant acting as escort (cause y'know, a war was on) and outside observer.
@Lore Reliaded
Is the top right corner some USA thing ??
Nothing on any of my devices, computers, ingognitos and so on.
I was just thinking. The point in not using the Defiant against the Klingons maybe the fact, that the Defiant was ready to leave the station as quickly as possible, if Starfleet reinforcements are too late and the Klingons take over the station.
Which is a good point
6:40 "the Defiant was one of the most powerful ship...in the sector."
A sector is relatively small, though it seems fairly random in canon. In one episode, the Enterprise D could only scan 1 sector per day, in another, they could scan multiple sectors at once. Either way.
:P
"RAMMING SPEED" worf
The biggest problem I have had with the USS Defiant is that we saw uss defiant A, which was destroyed, and USS Defiant B...which was also a defiant class but they never say A and B.
The crew of the Enterprise-D and other Starfleet members from other ships/departments often referred to it as just "the Enterprise", so I don't really see a problem with that.
ElektreeK in the show it was called Enterprise D at some parts and it has D on the hull. But no B for the Defiant
I thought the one destroyed was the USS Defiant and the second one was USS Defiant A. I even seem to remember a dash A on the second one. I could be wrong though
That assumes that there was never another USS Defiant in service between TOS and DS9 that was simply never shown. They did, after all, jump straight from Enterprise A to D at first before they finally went back and revealed B & C. For all we know, the original NX-74205 could have actually been the Defiant-E or something.
They wanted to have the second Defiant of DS9 called A but were unable to. According to behind the sceans information it was A but budget (The need to use stock footage) prevented it.
Yeah man. The Defiant held out against the Borg for hours. That was obvious in the movie. I never got the whole idea that it was somehow taken out easily. If you look at it in the opening it has holes everywhere and has had the living hell beat out of it, but so is the Borg cube. Most other ships that join in destroying the sphere look in much better shape because they are fresh to the fight like the Enterprise.
Per Memory Alpha - A nonaggression pact was a treaty agreement between two or more governments to abstain from engaging in open warfare with each other. Nonaggression pacts may have lead to mutual cooperation in some matters and expanded trade, but were not as strong as formal alliances. -
Memory alpha is not always right and I quoted main characters on the show
No they were not allies, the Romulans only had political relations to the Dominion to the extend that they signed a non agression pact. So the Romulans would not attack the Dominion and vice versa and thats about it, otherwise the Romulans would have had to Attack the Federation as well and they didnt. That is not "for all intends and purposes allies", thats them not wanting to waste their resources on each other. You are either allied or not there is no "for all intends and purposes" its about fighting beside each other or not, a very clear divide.
Then those whom said it in a pale moonlight and other episodes were mistaken
copied off Memory Alpha:
"Think about it, they're in the perfect position. They get to sit back and watch as their biggest rivals slug it out in a long, bloody war. No one's threatening their interests. Why should they risk their necks? There's simply no reason for them to get involved in our war."
- Jadzia Dax, 2374 ("In the Pale Moonlight")
The Romulan Star Empire had hitherto remained neutral in the Dominion War, although they were turning a blind eye to Dominion warships crossing through their territory to ambush Federation convoys and shipping.
So to conclude, yes they were either wrong or you didnt do your homework because with a simple look at the Romulan star Empires Memory alpha page you can confirm:
The Empire's position shifted when violent contact with the Dominion in 2370 presented a common threat to all Alpha Quadrant powers. The Romulans collaborated with Starfleet in a limited fashion to counter the Dominion threat, though ultimately they opted to sign a nonaggression pact with the Dominion in late 2373. (DS9: "The Search, Part I", "Call to Arms")
I just quickly googled this shit to make shure i remembered right and didnt treat you unfairly and i was right so correct your video. Its not that hard really.
@@LoreReloaded writers have no idea, often regard a 'treaty' as an 'alliance' and use the 2 words interchangeably, then go on to confuse 'treaty', 'alliance', and 'non-aggression pact', as if they all mean the same. either that or the characters made mistakes and used wrong words (but i think that would include data - so i blame the writers)
Defiant wasn't described as the first "ship solely dedicated for war" it was described as the first ship DESIGNED solely for war. There's a difference there and a distinction. Yes, we see the Defiant sent on various basic science missions on the show... that doesn't mean it isn't designed solely to fight. US naval submarines are all designed solely for war, but they often get sent on cartography assignments, for example. As far as the whole "vs The Borg" thing... if memory serves, Sisko said she was supposed to be the lead ship in a new battle fleet (DS9: The Search). That being said, I'm sure a battlegroup of, say, six Defiant class ships could very well have made mince meat out of the cube, given how well just one seemed to be holding up during the Battle of Sector 001. The Romulans weren't allies of the Dominion at the beginning of DS9: In The Pale Moonlight, they had a "non-aggression pact." If I agree not to kill you, that doesn't make us friends.
the ship is the class being we have only seen the defiant and then 1 episode of the valiant
I don't recall any of the shows stating that the Defiant was the 1st warship designed by Starfleet. Sisko says, "Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship -- Nothing more, nothing less." To which Kira replies, "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships." If there is another episode or movie that clearly states that the Defiant was the "1st" warship, please let me know.
While the other ships listed can easily be considered warships, due to their offensive & defensive capabilities, I don't believe that is what they were designed initially for. We see this in the NX-01 Enterprise. The ship was designed around the warp 5 engine, with a purpose to explore space. Then someone came along and said, "hey space is dangerous, shouldn't they have a way to protect themselves? Even cargo runners arm their ship."
I think the main difference comes down to the ship's "primary" role/function. Most Starfleet ship designs are for exploratory/science vessels, with combat capabilities (which get upgraded extensively in retrofits). While the Defiant was primarily designed for combat, but could take on minor scientific roles (even without science labs) in situations requiring a smaller vessel.
I think that this is a ship which takes real skill to pilot it considering it had Omni directional phaser arrays, you have to do manual targeting.
I think the defiant wasn't meant to take on the Borg alone but add to the fleet.
The Defiant was a "chip damage" craft. Fast, maneuverable, heavy weapons. Downside, small, adequate shields but not a wall, and even with it's weapons it's no Sovereign. It's meant to deliver fast, unpredictable attacks. Not a mainline warship. The Akira is a main assault ship. The Defiant is designed to hit hard, hit fast, take acceptable damage, but never go toe to toe solo with even a Galor, Nehg'Var, Dominion Cruiser, or even Breen heavy cruiser.
Agreed with Lore regarding its outstanding performance against the Borg. Think for political reasons Starfleet officially say its starships aren’t military or combat purposed. While Federation leaders is okay with starships being armed for defense but when war arrives they goto the only organization capable of defending Federation. So I think Starfleet has to maintain a double standard. So for decades it wouldn’t admit any of its designs are warship until Defiant...
I just had a thought: A space ship should have some Scientific capabilities. I mean modern naval ships have sonar, Electronic warfare and countermeasures, and a host of other computing systems, so for sci-fi, add in the vacuum of space, early warning systems for explainable crap and radiation, ways to scan and analyze planets, the use of exotic power sources and having some kind of science team would be a necessity, and of course we know very little about space so... you know... some new source of anti-matter or anything that can benefit the powers that be would be most beneficial!
If I remember correctly the romulans and Dominion had a non-aggression pact. They were not allies they just simply said they would not attack each other. I will however go back and watch this episode again to find out more but if I remember correctly it was a non-aggression pact that was originally signed,
Two main characters called them allies
Not sure if You'll see this but it was something I thought of today. Did the Federation ever consider bringing back augments or try to augment their current Starfleet personnel to help fight the Dominion?
It was outlawed
I know it was outlawed but did they ever consider repealing it? A desperate measure so to speak. They were possibly facing the destruction of the Federation, Klingon Empire and Romulan Empire.
I don't think the Defiant was supposed to destroy the borg all on it's own.
Defiant definitely wasn't the first war ship. Ares class during the klingon federation war. Was made for that sole purpose