Lucius just need to stand in the way of Angron. Then he will be dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. Angron won't hardly register that he just ripped some guy in half for the sole purpose of being able to continue to walk straight. Two steps of the mighty Red Angel and poor Luscious would be forgotten to have ever existed. Easy fix.
I love some of the "newer" chaos characters. Huron and the Red Corsairs have become one of my favorite groups in 40k. I love how relatively young Huron is. He does not know his gene father, he has never met a primarch, and he has never seen Terra. He fell due to, what he saw as, an unfair and uncaring system that betrayed him, and has become bitter to it. Idk why but I love bitter space marine characters (like Forrix in Storm of Iron). Huron wants to destroy the Imperium and Chaos is a way to do that. He has not fallen as much as others but he is dammed, he has made so many deals that are unknown and he is a walking corpse. But that hate for the Imperium fuels him. He doesnt really care about the "future of humanity" like other groups/leaders claim (like Honsou kinda). He just wants revenge and wants the Imperium to realize and regret turning against him. But overall, great video!
You’re just regurgitating opinions, friend. The fact that you use “mustache twirling” is a dead giveaway. Try thinking for yourself sometimes, it can be fun! :)
@@N0TYALCbut the inquisition?... I just saw 1 of thunderphykers videos because of the tv show hes in. Its really not the tactica inperalis for kitten?...
So a fun parallel to how you were describing Kharn in constant pain and wracked by ticks from the end of the heresy is the condition Angron is in at it's beginning.
Fall to Chaos is interesting, because tragedy is interesting. Once fall is concluded, there is little to tell. Fall must not be complete for tragedy to continue, but that would bring us to never ending status quo of Warhammer setting.
The idea of Khârn hunting the soul of Argal Tal, and by extension, Erabus is what I hope for the most. Because it means that Erabus doesn’t just get to laugh over his success for the past 10,000 years, but now, he has to dodge being hunted by those that he dragged into this damnation.
But that’s the thing, above all else Erebus enjoys being near danger. Thats why he plays his scorpion game, to see how close to the fire he can get before he is burned. He cares not now what is ultimate fate is for he has played his scorpion game upon the entire galaxy and now it is the galaxy which burns. Once he might of feared death because he had so many more plans and schemes to enact . Now?…Now he plays his scorpion game.
I don’t think Chaos itself is necessarily boring, but I feel the way GW has chosen to gone about writing Chaos makes them boring. Like I like Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar because following Chaos is all about dark ambition and sacrificing, becoming a Champion of the Dark Gods in that setting can grant a normal man god like power and true immortality, but in order to achieve these lofty goals you need to give up all human decency and commit horrific atrocities. Plus in Fantasy Chaos is probably the truest meritocracy, it doesn’t matter what the circumstances of your birth is or your station in life is, as long as you’ve got the stomach and nerve, you can become a champion of chaos. Meanwhile in 40K it’s the fucking Marines showtime hour! All day! Everyday! You’re practically already a demigod already, so why did you fall to chaos? DADDY ISSUES! And practically every named Chaos leader is the same fucking hack from the God Damn Horus Heresy, 10 fucking thousand years ago! Also in Aesthetically Chaos in 40K is a lot less interesting and impressive, back in Fantasy the Chaos Warriors were the only guys in the big hulking plate armor, and they rode on demonic horse, they were literally the Horsemen of the Apocalypses. Meanwhile in 40K they're just Space Marines with Spikey armor and more fucked faces
The surface visuals of 40k Chaos may be less appealing, but the underlying plot of how and why people fall to chaos and how it operates is much more interesting. I'm talking about the core mechanic of Chaos itself, not the actual characters, but in Fantasy, Chaos is must more one-dimensional and much more of an "obvious evil", whereas 40k chaos is more nuanced, especially when contrasted to the fanatical Imperium. In other words, there is no moral ambiguity in Fantasy. Chaos is all bad, Karl Franz is all good. 40k is different, The Emperor, mighty as he may be, is a flawed character and even his most corrupted sons are not completely devoid of goodness (except for Fulgrim and Erebus, fuck those guys).
Chaos, at least how I’ve interpreted it, is meant to be the perversion of life itself. Its followers are meant to be embodiments of said perversions but also under the delusion that they are still enacting whatever original ideals they thought once right. Emperor’s Children are a lovely example- the pursuit of perfection turned them into the pursuers of excess through Slaanesh Death guard, where Mortarion feared the death of his legion, offered himself and his sons to Nurgle, to cheat death only to become the very thing he hated his whole life. Thousand sons, where Arihman sought the change needed to save his brothers from the curse, DID technically save them…in a fickle, truly Tzeentchian manner. World eaters…angry gets angrier because we love dad?? That’s what chaos is to me, not just “I want power pls give I’m sooooo evil”
I think chaos characters are generally more interesting. Characters with deep flaws represent humanity rather more accurately than characters who are perfect. They mirror back at us our own flawed nature. Our own darkness. The absolute truth that both good and evil do exist in humanity and that even the superhuman Astartes aren’t immune to corruption. I also enjoy moments like where Talos admits he just wanted to be a hero. I mean holy crap if that isn’t some actual human level shit then I don’t know what is.
I like to think the Butchers nails in Kharn should have burned out a few centuries ago ( and the buzzing he feels is simply imagined when in combat ), and when not in combat he should be deceptively clear thinking again, trying to work out a way to escape from the chains of Khorne, and of course, finding Erebus...
32:40 sometimes i really think big E needs some communication class lmao. Just tell red boy that his sons will all get early retirement & Ahriman can get his wineyard or whatever. Ezpz
I will never forget that one _Slaanesh_ Chaos Lord with a pair of child twins chained to his armour, one blinded and the other muted, just to let them suffer What a perverse, crazy character.
@@darko-man8549 3D-printing some kids, and some chains...🤔...yeah, I can see him, already...I also remember that guy removing his own lips, ears and eyelids...😐
Reminds me of a Magos in the Word Bearers novels. He had a stumpy dwarf creature attached to him that absorbed all the negative things in his body, basically using it as ultra powerful kidneys so what's left of his organic bits remained pristine. So the little deformed monster had like every kind of cancer and organ failure and more just so the Magos he's attached to didn't have the inconvenience of mild discomfort due to ageing organic body parts.
Of all things, TTS had a great concept with their version of Uriah. A (mostly) soft spoken chaotic priest who believes that there's more to worshiping the Chaos Gods than just absolute depravity and that you can exist in a symbiotic relationship with them, instead of focusing on their most base and primitive aspects like most chaos worshipers do. A preacher like him would certainly be a more compelling antagonist to the Imperium than Abbadon, considering what the lives of most Imperial citizens are like. Granted, if a more nuanced take on Chaos did exist in 40K, it would probably be a revolving door of "It works, you can worship the dark gods in a healthy way" and "no it doesn't, chaos is inherently evil" depending on who's writing on that day.
I don't think that concept even originates with TTS. I can't remember where but I read somewhere that in older codexes or lore, Chaos gods also had good traits like honor and valour in Khorne or love and happiness in Slaanesh but the turbulence in the warp and the constant conflicts in the material world twisted their very nature into what we know today.
all the "it works" plotlines would have precisely zero verisimilitude, and sound more like an ultracrepidarian trying to validate his garbage worldview through fans espousing garbage because he wrote it into a certain universe.
I think the point of chaos is that, yeah it works at first, but it's supposed to slowly devolve into the base evil we see. The problem is that it's supposed to be *really* gradual, like, decades and generations. Eisenhorn does a good job of portraying that
On the purging the space marines like thunder warriors, I love the little interaction between an Iron warrior and some ultramarines (with some new primaris bois). The iron warrior is about to be killed by the ultramarines and just says "Thunder Warriors". And it starts a little convo between the ultramarines about the Thunder warriors and if a similar situation will happen with Primaris. The one old ultramarine just believes that if it is to happen, it is his duty to die.
Yeah that whole betrayal of the TW was stupid IMHO. They only had a lifespans of about 50 years after transformation tops. Why not just let them grow old and die? Well it is because this isn't the God-Emperor of Mankind, this is Neyoth!
Chaos itself is the issue. The unpredictable nature. And the certain set traits and influence of the god that has assumed control. On the one hand it determines the goals and possibilities of a character. On the other hand it gives space for randomness in the sense of intervention by said god to throw everything off balance because warp. I don't think this lends itself well to character development arcs. In fact I doubt it's possible unless chaos undevided. But then there is still the warp stuff. It's similair to a gene stealer named character (is that even a thing?) that then would meet with the hive mind on top of that. They're not their own entity proper.
I don’t think Chaos itself makes characters boring, even though I’m an Imperium fan boy. Rather, the nature of Chaos tempts writers to write them as boring. Like Angron is boring, he’s used as a beat stick because it’s easier to write him like a brick than it is to make a compelling story about a blood addled maniac. Because Chaos encapsulates excess, it becomes easy to make the character one-dimensional. That’s why stories of falling to Chaos or being tempted to do so are much more interesting. Personally, I would spice up Chaos by having more stories of Chaos characters tempted to return to the Imperium or trying to prevent some kind of religious split within a chaos god’s worshippers. Something that shows this Slaaneshi cultist and this other one have dogmatic disagreements.
Chaos characters like Kharn and Lucius are one dimensional in the end but they make good side character or enemies. But chaos as a whole can also make characters really interesting. Like the villain from Lion Son Of The Forest who had a more creative way of using chaos.
Yeah I was just saying that villain is a really interesting character. I’m just reading gates of bone, a couple of other interesting chaos villains. Lot of people saying only the fall to chaos is interesting but I think only for HH characters and the primarchs. I like seeing how these characters some of which have been fighting the long war 10 millennia cope with all their ups and downs and justify their actions and ideology and how they form little genuine bonds among themselves which often feel more human and real as they are chosen bonds than the some of the space marines stuff
@wephilips6651 most definitely. I also think Characters more tied into HH are supposed to have a tragic element to them, like Lucius being legit friends with Saul, and Ahriman trying to fix his legion. So you either get people whose whole story is tragedy or people whose whol story is being someone elses villain. I think its one of the issue with Word bearers whete they're never cool in anyones book but their own.
The only chaos book I’ve read was ‘Lords of Silence’. It was one of the more interesting WH novels I’ve read. In fact, it was almost like tripping when reading it.
It's why Huron is the most interesting chaos character. Yes, he's fallen, but his arc is far from complete. That said, the black legion books by ADB did show that chaos can be interesting when written well. But that's by characters who are keeping themselves out of one god or another, and that battle. Those who are all in to a specific god seem to have a harder time of being interesting. I do agree though, your idea of Lorgar vs Abaddon would be fascinating The AL book, Shroud of Night, shows the issue with Khan in the modern setting. He was a force of nature, not a character.
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been watching for a while but lurking, just wanted to tell you I heard your conversation with Northern Exile today, I really enjoyed it a lot. The question in this video is very interesting. I think when 40k was more Grimdark, Chaos was far more interesting. As GW has dropped the Grimdark, Chaos has in some ways become more comic villains, Evil for the sake of evil and with no goal but to be evil. Great video sir, as always, I really enjoy your take on the lore!
When you were talking about Magnus maybe getting a story where he hunts for his own shards, I had a weird idea come to mind. A recreation of the council of Nikea but it's just magnus put on trial by some of his own shards and forced to face his mistakes
My problem with Abaddon is he comes off as just a lesser, diet Horus. Abaddon hast to make bargains and deals with greater daemons, Horus just commanded them. Abaddon has to threaten and beg for support from the other Legions, Horus just commanded them. Abaddon hasn't gotten to the skies of Terra in 10,000 of war, while the Imperium is fighting on countless other battlefronts. Horus got to Terra in less than 10 years with the full industrial might of the Imperium against him. And his goals don't make sense. He wants to kill the Emperor and "rule". Like...how? Is he going to sit on the Golden Throne? Does he think the Ultramarines will bend the knee? That the Sisters of Battle will start to worship him? At least Horus's plan to kill the Emperor and take over leads to a new Chaos God that eats all of humanity. That's at least an end goal. Abaddon feels like a dog chasing the mail truck - he just does it, unthinking, with no plans as to what happens if he gets it. And having Abaddon go on some spirit quest just feels like a rehash of Horus or Lorgar's stories. That the best thing that can happen to Abaddon is just to re-use stories already spent on better, more important characters. I think the best use for Abaddon is for the Chaos Gods to withdraw their support, yank the leash back, show him he's just the champion du jour. Countless have come before him, countless will come after. Horus was the big investment, and he killed the Emperor. Abaddon is just picking over the scraps and playing dress up with his father's claw. That would be a good twist for him, to realize for all his careful plots and plans not to be a puppet of Chaos, he ultimately 100% is and has just been deluding himself.
This is why I need GW writers to pour more into Abaddon writing, just give us something to grab onto, I know that’s what the scouring series will be for but you’ve had this character for 40 years or something and it’s like watching paint dry
Horus had the benefit of arranging nearly all the pieces on the board, had fully had that of the Imperium at the time, his weren't full on crazy at the time and Chaos generating warp storms to clear him a path. Abaddon has significantly fewer forces, far crazier and ambitious ones (even among his own Black Legion) and does not mere have the goal of kill the Emperor and not care what happens afterward. Abaddon's best bet is divide and conquer. Something the Great Rift does well for him. If things go according to Abaddon's plan, I think he is powerful enough to take Terra, he creates that as seat of a new dark empire to conquer the galaxy all over again piece by piece. Near unending war for him to take part in. Made easier with the loss of the Astronomicon, but getting the shot and conquering the galaxy would be far easier when most of the Imperium is already on its knees or Chaos worlds. I think Archaon of WHFB/AoS makes an excellent template of what Abaddon's post Emperor assassination looks like. I partly agree with you in that the video idea is basically Lorgar thinks he can lead better than the Warmaster and fails to do something about it. But this time it's Abaddon. Abaddon has already proven himself with his 12 Black Crusades. Which are far less retcons than this video, and the internet, makes them out to be. Abaddon certainly didn't get major victories out of all of them, and a few could be considered setbacks; but if viewed through the lens of gathering power and experience, nearly all were successful. The Black Crusades are what fans often want: generally a winning record, without being perfect. Setting up a new guy as the Warmaster really doesn't fix anything and breaks a few things. Abaddon barely has control that he had secured over 10,000 years. Some FNG coming in is going also take 1,000s of years to come close to organizing such a force out of the power vacuum left behind. With Tyranid invasions becoming more frequent, Necrons waking up and everything else, I don't see another Warmaster of Chaos arising in time for some other faction to have beaten them to the punch of conquering the galaxy. Abaddon is a puppet of Chaos. All Chaos space marines are. They are villains in a setting of villains. I honestly don't see a need in Abaddon needing growth, an arc or anything. He's always been the generic black knight, big bad evil guy archetype. He works because he is so cliché. I believe he was never intended to be characterized more than 'scary boogeyman' background in service of the stories players make up for their games of 40k. The more these discussions come up, the more I think the novels, fleshing out the Horus Heresy and a continuing narrative, was a mistake. All creating this stuff has done is invite deconstruction of a setting that was obviously held together with bubblegum and chicken wire. TL;DR: Let generic bad guys be generic bad guys.
The thing is once they become a part of chaos they become so simple that they are boring by themselves. Great as a plot device or threat but otherwise as characters not so much. Perhaps as a redemption or something it could work but with how it currently is not so much as it feels like the end of a journey.
The thing is CSP usually tend to be more interesting bc they are the more individualistic. All loyalist either follow the imperial cult or the imperial truth while the pawns of chaos not necesarilly need to follow their god to further their goals. Like ahiram, magnus, mortarion, abdadon, bile or huron, while the EC o WE legions are characterized by their god. They have more wriggle room for characterization.
Would love a voice acted full story video for Malcador. Definitely my favorite 30k character, and tied with Lukas the Trickster and Ciaphas Cain overall.
Magnus rejected redemption from big E for his sons. The same son who conducted a ritual to turn most of Magnus' sons into dusty automatons. What a tragic ending to a guy who does not learn from his mistakes. Did not try to negotiate or find a solution for the thousand sons with the Emperor (a deal of sort was done by Sanguinius) Now he is but a puppet chained against his will. The irony for the man who wanted to satisfy his curiosity, freedom, and his quest for a psychic human future.
There are some good stories for CSM, I like the Night Lords omnibus, the Black Legion series (Still waiting for that last book BL) and the Lords of Silence. When they get the spotlight, they're good. They're bitter, they desire revenge and they have an understandably hateful motivation, they seem less just crazy for the sake of being crazy and more like Honest Hearts Joshua Graham. They've been covered in pitch, set on fire and thrown into the grand canyon to die a forgotten and their memories spit on. Half the Imperium is the Imperium because of them and now that glory, that place in the universe they fought for and desired now belongs to others and they articulate and channel that hate in a way that is sympathetic. Most of the time though they are one dimensional bad guys who are just edgy nihilists, every last one of them. Doesn't matter their loyalties to any particular deity or if they worship undivided, they just fall flat. Which is a shame because they have changed in many positive ways since the Horus Heresy and I find this best exemplified in the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors take leave from the Siege of Terra and make a massive fortress to challenge the Imperial Fists. When the Imperial Fists do finally come, they lose BADLY. The Imperial Fists at this point are veterans all of the most desperate defense in human history AND they already are considered one of the best siege warfare experts. They show up and it's bad. On day one the Imperial Fists are locked into the Iron Cage, they can't get resupplied and their fleet is rendered irrelevant. The following weeks are absolute murder, they've run out of ammo, companies devolve into squads, squads devolve into individual knife fights, captured defenses provide no utility at best, at worse they're a trap and they lose badly while the Iron Warriors are essentially just performing an execution and when they finally get to the heart of the fortress, it's worthless, a joke. The second instance is at Hydra Cordatus where we no longer see Iron Warriors being expended like ammunition. They're performing night time probing's and sabotage, they infiltrate the planet to sabotage key points, they infect a Tyranid ship to be used against the Imperial Fists, yes it is still a bloody ordeal for the Iron Warriors, but now we see that they're much smarter. The Imperial Fists? They are the same stalwart defenders that were on Terra 10,000 years ago, which is still good, but we don't see progression, we just see the same old Imperial Fists. I like the CSM faction, they can be done right, but they do frequently, in every sphere of the IP, get shafted. They are essentially reduced to just the bad guys getting killed to make the hero's look good and that is disappointing
I think they just need active mirrors both in the legions and in other renegades that can make the characters feel unique. Not just that they are paragons for the gods but rather showing how they may be flawed and there are others who see/ work through and with Chaos in a, perhaps, better and more updated way versus these older relics of the Heresy. I realize time works differently in the warp and such but it would give GW some ability to expand upon what happened between the Scouring and the present day with some Renegade legions or the Imperium. Or even how the current state might be affecting like first born chapters. Just something to make the characters of Chaos have more to bounce off of in the story rather than just being their past and that's it. As in having them actually interact with these new characters as well to create productive conflict in the story for these characters and the setting.
Yea, a little bit, in my opinion. The big draw of the Warhammer universe to me is the constant struggle against the dying of the light, and to me, falling to chaos feels like the giving up of a character. That being said, that’s just for me personally, like what you like ❤
No but they have fewer options for character development I think. Like, at this stage, can’t imagine too many chaos marines are still like “we’re on the right side of history here fellas” lol so they’re aware they’re the bad guys in this situation. And they’ve decided, for one reason or another, to roll with it. But you still get great characters like Bile, Ahriman, Erebus and Kharn. But then you also get characters like Lucius who’s just like “I’m SOOOOOOO evil!!! Look how EEEEEEEEEVIL I am, I look like a snakie faced snake man and have a hentai whip because I’m SOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEVIL” 😂😂
I mean, that's just Slaanesh. Out of all the chaos gods, Slaanesh is the most obviously evil one and it's suitable that his chosen would embody that. You know, it's the whole "inflict agony and eat their souls" thing. I don't see how you make that nuanced. It's contrasted by being the only faction where having fun and enjoying yourself is encouraged, which really messes with my mind, as that is something I want, but not at the price of becoming the worst...just the worst, end of sentence.
@@jabloko992 that’s a really great point. Honestly, Slaanesh is the chaos god that bothers me the most profoundly; the intense r*pey vibes get my hackles up big time. Could be why, where as I hate someone like Erebus but still enjoy reading about him because he’s fun to hate, Fulgrim and Lucius make me feel a “go the fuck away” hate.
17:58 then they can show he made the civil war, and i forget the primearchs name went to the warp, then they can show why he went there, and then the inperium can learn what the word bearers did to get him mad, then the inperium will do something because they just learned the emporor doesnt like them and wants religion gone.
3:52 the chaos legions are shadows of the inperium. And chaos is the inperiums shadows they litterlly cant understand, because if they did see their own reflection, the inperium would just be all human and cyborg and edited humans of the night hunter, something even the dark elder couldnt escape from. The tyrinids and necrons its still a fight though.
I think Kharn needs to come in contact with "The Good" so powerful. That it drives back to the Emperor's graces & somehow betrays Khorne so massively. That he gets rejected, gets his powers revoked but instead of him and his soul disintegrating in warp flames. He burnst into them permanently & is joined by an entire Legion....A Legion of the Damned.
Kharn going back to how Khorne was originally framed in the 90s/2000’s, as the god of honor and martial pride rather than rage and fury would make him more interesting.
There needs to be more stories of chaos worshippers being redeemed or actively fighting their deity to make it interesting. As it is now once you fall you became a 2D comic book villain.
@isaiahsmith6016 there is a tipping point where your soul is claimed but you can be corrupted quite a bit before then. Daemons also regularly rebel against their god so it can be the same for mortals.
@@isaiahsmith6016There likely are ways, because during Godblight when Big E possesses Guilliman, he tells Mortarion that he may one day be redeemed, but for now he must go back to the master he chose (Nurgle). Whether this requires the creature to first be willing to be redeemed or can be done in spite of the creature’s desires, we have no idea. It may be something only Big E could pull off. There is precedent for this, though. Horus is temporarily cleansed of Chaos corruption shortly before he is killed.
Chaos characters are definitely some of my top favourite ones in all of 40k, because they can be so nuanced by their personal histories and unique flavour of damnation. But, like all factions, really need good writing to not become too simple. For the sake of using a xenos example: Farsight is a really well written character in his novels, with relatable flaws and dreams.
Because faction who's victory means the end of the world/universe/galaxy is always boring. And we also never shall forget that while writers chose to create AoS it was Chaos they used as the tool to end the beloved FB.
I have been busy AF in life, not had chance to listen... YET. And I will reply to this comment after I do listen, but my gut reaction to the question, "Does Chaos make characters boring?", is.... 1000% yes. After watching, maybe tonight, I will see if my opinion changes but I am betting no.
"The Fall from Grace" is a beloved story line as is the "Redemption Arc" ... question is: "Is redeeming CSM viable without destroying the faction?" Ironically, Chaos almost needs a PR campaign, showing it as a viable destination. As for myself, it s the simple honesty of Chaos that I appreciate. It delievers exactly as it reads on the tin. No fake bravado for the false emperor of mankind, no pretends about a greater good ... Chaos just Is. Even that blasted trickster god is open about its trickery.
More nuance in the characters is needed. More conflict between good and evil. More sympathy. More empathy. More tragedy. Without destroying their allegiance to chaos or their purpose. They all can't be evil cackling malevolent villains. Gets boring. This is aimed more at the 40k crowd rather than the 30k lot, who are written better.
9:43 this is why i think im from it= I thought of a phyker that kills for korn,but korn wont help him/he just hates him. but the phyker keeps killing with super powers and weopons. But korn still wont help him. And hes extremelly infamous for genicide. He probbally should be a demon prince by now,but isnt. =karn useing phykers and thinking. =see?...,=still in 30,000, i think im from the 30,000 specifically/too many quincidences.
It’s why Huron is more interesting than Abbadon. The latter, we keep getting told, is manipulating chaos for his own end. He isn’t “just a pawn”. But then Huron actually has motivation beyond chaos. Renegades are the most interesting part of the SM factions. They get to be a grey area in what ends up being quite a black and white group. Obviously not all renegades are equal. Flesh Tearers are renegade but staunchly loyal. Farsight is a renegade T’au and is the only interesting part of their story so far imo 😂 What Abbadon should be sort of reminds me of Darth Kreia - wanting to be free of the Force’s Will
GW is insistent on stagnation in the setting which leads to interesting chaos characters but never progressing. Huron and Honsou and Talos all spring to mind, but these guys are all minimally corrupted. The more corrupted the more Saturday morning villain they seemingly become
Nykona returning in modern 40k isn't the craziest thing I could think of. Nykona didn't really "die" but was very near death with Garuda and the Magna Mater. He could of been found by the 13th or Martian adepts who ice box Sharrowkyn and wake him up periodically for Primarizing himself or being periodically woken up to train the Ultima Founding Raven Guard over the millenia. Still no story about how the Raven Guard received their Indomitus care package from Robby G. Nykona could be inserted there.
many years as dm taught me that controversial villains are very interesting, the ambiguity and grey area in ethics gives colour to all, BUT sometimes, most of the times actually, you need an anapologetic villain, doent even need great depth , just a old school demon without ambiguity is the meat and potatoes, that why Erebus is the Greatest Villain in wh40k imo.
Talon of horus and black legion novels got me into the hobbie where ive spent over $40,000 in 4 years. Abaddon is my favorite character but i did not like him in 30k later when i read over 130 books audible but him in the 41st owwwww yeah BEAST!
It's a side effect of the stagnant/stuck setting, no ? If sigismund was still alive in 40k, he would be as boring as they are. Whereas Loyalists can have full characters arc, because they live and die (They get recruited, rise through the rank, etc), traitors are often the spacemarines that fought in the heresy. So in a sense, they are basically stagnant like the setting, but they don't really have the thematic advantage loyalists have (The whole "Rage ! Rage against the dying of the Light" feeling 40k has) It's especially true for the Primarchs, because these are characters so "big", that they can't act without moving the plot forward, much like the Emperor or the 4 chaos Gods. You could argue that's why they essentially had to be written out for 40k to even happen. I guess if GamesWorkshop had planned things a bit more, they could have made the Primarch dissapearance a slower process, like, instead of having them all gone in M31 (with the exception of vulkan reappearance). If they slowly dissapeared one by one over the millenias, there could have been more chances for moving things along a bit, even if the fundamental premise (the emperor is dead) was still the same.
I actually think Chaos Space Marines or rather Renegades are way more interesting than loyalist bc they are so flawed but weirdly often more human than their loyalist counterparts. Mostly because they feel more like individuals than faceless soldiers like the First Claw of the Night Lords, Lords of Silence, Fabius Warband etc. Loyalist often feel pretty stale imo. Often they are just those stoic, ultraloyal killing maschines. Not all of course but still a huge chunk which makes them so boring.
I think it depends on the character you- BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! I mean, the nuance of the tragic fall of the- SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! If you look at it from a character driven dichoto- KILL! MAIM! BURN! *Sigh*. Yes. Yes it does. (Huron did nothing wrong).
thats a weird question when all the most boring characters are named Space Marines. You can't call your setting grim dark when its actually just edgy British Shonen anime.
Magnus is stagnant? 7th Edition, He invaded Fenris and reclaimed Prospero. 8th Edition he fought Guilliman on Luna. 9th Edition he enacted a great ritual and was barely stopped by Grey Knights and Dark Angels. What more do you want?
I never thought Abaddon was particularly interesting character any way. The other four members of the Mournival had some substance, nuance or depth, but not Abaddon. However, I think chaos itself creates interesting arcs for characters to fall, but, and I think this is more of a 40K (we might also see this in other similar media) the fall is the goal because of their tabletop story - they were corrupted/tempted and now they're an adversary in perpetuity. GW do now seem to experimenting more (I know they've done this occasionally in the past) with progressing the plot, which means the characters do have more scope for growth, so maybe we'll see something more than an end-point of antagonist. I'm really enjoying the channel and wish I found it a bit earlier. Only complaint is occasionally stumbling on spoilery bits - I started reading the HH when released (I was a fantasy player, but the HH caught my imagination from the old RoC books) but I'm only half way through. I don't know if could time stamp the sections with the books your sourcing from? I totally get it if it's a pain though.
Abaddon as an underwhelming slightly dull antagonist has become a meme (because it’s true!) but I was shocked how little effort was spent in the HH series trying to correct that. Read fall of Cadia and talon of Horus…it’s a close as Abaddon comes to being interesting
I haven't watched yet, but i will say I always found the idea of chaos very interesting in how wide of a net as far as characters it can incorporate. granted they are in no shortage of old fashioned power hungry bad guys, but there are also characters like Ahriman who sees chaos as a means to an end or Akkura who sees that the imperium must be destroyed for humanity and is willing to make any sacrifice. Even for the obvious bad guys like Bile and Typhus have very different beliefs about what chaos even is and have very different goals for the galaxy. All these characters walk down a path of damnation. But each of them have different traits and beliefs that very clearly make them who they are. I would say chaos actually often opens the door for a layer of complexity as characters often deal with the issue of them not sharing a unified belief but often having to work together anyways.
if the primarchs can get corrupted what chance do regular humans have, kinda kills the whole universe just endless fighting , i guess thats what they want if they dont want it end and sale stuff.
Chaos makes characters interesting. Kharn the betrayer? Yeah a ravening butcher with cybernetic implants in his head is cool, but it only gets more interesting when they retroactively have to give him character development during the heresy. Same with lucius, even Abaddon, Aximand etc. the reasons for and their feelings about their fall to chaos are some of the most interesting and often tragic storylines in the lore.
Most do. Half of them can't even remember why they or their forebears rebelled against the emperor, preform the same generic "death to the emperor" speel or are seeking to screw over everyone in their warband for more power (demon prince). Interesting chaos or anti chaos fractions include the Alpha Legion and some loyalists that are on the fringes.. still loyal but very much anti-heroes. Some Iron Warriors are very self aware but too much of man children to do much of anything else but whine. Night Lords are just a-holes just to be a-holes. Not asking for a redemption ark for them but I think the majority of the traitor legionaries that were from the first generation who still are alive regret a lot of their actions.
Chaos has been so watered down from what it was back in the day where it was an interesting dynamic faction with good parts and bad parts into this schlocky cheesy over the top Saturday Cartoon Villain that I can't take it seriously anymore. It's tragic.
I guess it depends on what you want out of the character? I *like* bloodthirsty, evil, zealous warlords hellbent on the utter ruin of the entire galaxy and too high on their own power to care about the drawbacks, so Chaos is fucking fantastic for me.
Would be hilarious if Perty has just retired onvsome random world away from all the fighting without anyone knowing. Like Thanos after the end of Infinity War.
They're supposedly boring because gw can't let them outshine the space marines. The apocalypse novel is a fun listen from the word bearers side of the book but it wasn't about them so you can guess the outcome
Despite the title and thumbnail I expected an audio book. I was throw out of that idea when you spoke. Very strange Maybe these ideas can be shared in a more optimal way and the video can be presented very differently as not to build misleading expectations.
Khorne’s entire concept in my personal opinion is extremely boring. And people who follow him are boring. They’re all basically mustache twisting serial killers. It’s a dumb concept.
ahhh it sort of is but zech is cool i like the lord of change if done right actully the new look into world eaters was more sad i likedthe way thay turend out nut black legion theres no room for them i think hes not a primarch he should be killed off and get on with bigger baddys like logars death lol then there is the iron lords return will be good
I feel like that the problem with revealing 30k lore is that it lessens 40k lore. Everyone is supposed to be weak compared to their peak strength. Space Marines' Primarks aren't supposed to be on the table. Orks used to be the size of churches. Elder used to have a vast empire. Necrons used to rule the galaxy. Once you reveal each factions good old days you lessen the appeal of 40k as the worst possible future.
The real problem here is stagnation, chaos is supossed to be a mutable force upon everyone and everything and yet they seem to be the most rigid of factuons, my take is the black legion needs to dbe vroken and Abaddon true killed and kets someone else o many else with writers for each of this factions taje the power and lets keep moving the lore forwards, we need need fall of heroes, new villains new characters and maybe sone redemtions too.
I think, in general terms, I like that Chaos gets to emote and have passion (other than the crusading kind). I think it's fun when chaos shows positive emotional traits that are generally not shown in the Imperium.
I love that your channel is slowly getting the attention it so rightfully deserves
Lucius just need to stand in the way of Angron. Then he will be dead. Dead. Dead. Dead.
Angron won't hardly register that he just ripped some guy in half for the sole purpose of being able to continue to walk straight.
Two steps of the mighty Red Angel and poor Luscious would be forgotten to have ever existed.
Easy fix.
I love some of the "newer" chaos characters. Huron and the Red Corsairs have become one of my favorite groups in 40k. I love how relatively young Huron is. He does not know his gene father, he has never met a primarch, and he has never seen Terra. He fell due to, what he saw as, an unfair and uncaring system that betrayed him, and has become bitter to it. Idk why but I love bitter space marine characters (like Forrix in Storm of Iron). Huron wants to destroy the Imperium and Chaos is a way to do that. He has not fallen as much as others but he is dammed, he has made so many deals that are unknown and he is a walking corpse. But that hate for the Imperium fuels him. He doesnt really care about the "future of humanity" like other groups/leaders claim (like Honsou kinda). He just wants revenge and wants the Imperium to realize and regret turning against him.
But overall, great video!
Too many of the characters are turned into Saturday morning moustache twirlers.
You’re just regurgitating opinions, friend. The fact that you use “mustache twirling” is a dead giveaway. Try thinking for yourself sometimes, it can be fun! :)
@@N0TYALCbut the inquisition?...
I just saw 1 of thunderphykers videos because of the tv show hes in.
Its really not the tactica inperalis for kitten?...
@maltheri9833 Evil without motivation, characters performing acts merely to induce shock in an audience, that is what I mean.
@@N0TYALC or hes just coming to the same blatantly obvious conclusion as others.
Chaos is just sloppy written for "oh so grimdark mwahahaha" factor.
So a fun parallel to how you were describing Kharn in constant pain and wracked by ticks from the end of the heresy is the condition Angron is in at it's beginning.
Fall to Chaos is interesting, because tragedy is interesting. Once fall is concluded, there is little to tell. Fall must not be complete for tragedy to continue, but that would bring us to never ending status quo of Warhammer setting.
Or we get the dragon ball effect of each action being a greater calamity than the last but the reaction always feeling the same.
Yeah, especially since there is no going back from the Fall. Would be interesting to see a character try to repent and cleanse himself from Chaos
that's why ahriman is interesting imo
Unless we get a redemption arch Ariman as an example
The idea of Khârn hunting the soul of Argal Tal, and by extension, Erabus is what I hope for the most.
Because it means that Erabus doesn’t just get to laugh over his success for the past 10,000 years, but now, he has to dodge being hunted by those that he dragged into this damnation.
But that’s the thing, above all else Erebus enjoys being near danger. Thats why he plays his scorpion game, to see how close to the fire he can get before he is burned. He cares not now what is ultimate fate is for he has played his scorpion game upon the entire galaxy and now it is the galaxy which burns. Once he might of feared death because he had so many more plans and schemes to enact . Now?…Now he plays his scorpion game.
ya good point i agree and will join you on that ooh ya dorn alpha legion stuff to
I don’t think Chaos itself is necessarily boring, but I feel the way GW has chosen to gone about writing Chaos makes them boring.
Like I like Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar because following Chaos is all about dark ambition and sacrificing, becoming a Champion of the Dark Gods in that setting can grant a normal man god like power and true immortality, but in order to achieve these lofty goals you need to give up all human decency and commit horrific atrocities. Plus in Fantasy Chaos is probably the truest meritocracy, it doesn’t matter what the circumstances of your birth is or your station in life is, as long as you’ve got the stomach and nerve, you can become a champion of chaos.
Meanwhile in 40K it’s the fucking Marines showtime hour! All day! Everyday! You’re practically already a demigod already, so why did you fall to chaos? DADDY ISSUES! And practically every named Chaos leader is the same fucking hack from the God Damn Horus Heresy, 10 fucking thousand years ago!
Also in Aesthetically Chaos in 40K is a lot less interesting and impressive, back in Fantasy the Chaos Warriors were the only guys in the big hulking plate armor, and they rode on demonic horse, they were literally the Horsemen of the Apocalypses. Meanwhile in 40K they're just Space Marines with Spikey armor and more fucked faces
This a natural result of a lack of mortal chaos/mutant armies in the setting.
The surface visuals of 40k Chaos may be less appealing, but the underlying plot of how and why people fall to chaos and how it operates is much more interesting. I'm talking about the core mechanic of Chaos itself, not the actual characters, but in Fantasy, Chaos is must more one-dimensional and much more of an "obvious evil", whereas 40k chaos is more nuanced, especially when contrasted to the fanatical Imperium.
In other words, there is no moral ambiguity in Fantasy. Chaos is all bad, Karl Franz is all good. 40k is different, The Emperor, mighty as he may be, is a flawed character and even his most corrupted sons are not completely devoid of goodness (except for Fulgrim and Erebus, fuck those guys).
I'd hope for more conflict between Abaddon and Huron, aside from Lorgar. I like the contrast between the two.
Chaos, at least how I’ve interpreted it, is meant to be the perversion of life itself. Its followers are meant to be embodiments of said perversions but also under the delusion that they are still enacting whatever original ideals they thought once right.
Emperor’s Children are a lovely example- the pursuit of perfection turned them into the pursuers of excess through Slaanesh
Death guard, where Mortarion feared the death of his legion, offered himself and his sons to Nurgle, to cheat death only to become the very thing he hated his whole life.
Thousand sons, where Arihman sought the change needed to save his brothers from the curse, DID technically save them…in a fickle, truly Tzeentchian manner.
World eaters…angry gets angrier because we love dad??
That’s what chaos is to me, not just “I want power pls give I’m sooooo evil”
World Eaters are the perfect representation of what war is.
I think chaos characters are generally more interesting. Characters with deep flaws represent humanity rather more accurately than characters who are perfect. They mirror back at us our own flawed nature. Our own darkness. The absolute truth that both good and evil do exist in humanity and that even the superhuman Astartes aren’t immune to corruption.
I also enjoy moments like where Talos admits he just wanted to be a hero. I mean holy crap if that isn’t some actual human level shit then I don’t know what is.
I like to think the Butchers nails in Kharn should have burned out a few centuries ago ( and the buzzing he feels is simply imagined when in combat ), and when not in combat he should be deceptively clear thinking again, trying to work out a way to escape from the chains of Khorne, and of course, finding Erebus...
32:40 sometimes i really think big E needs some communication class lmao. Just tell red boy that his sons will all get early retirement & Ahriman can get his wineyard or whatever. Ezpz
I will never forget that one _Slaanesh_ Chaos Lord with a pair of child twins chained to his armour, one blinded and the other muted, just to let them suffer
What a perverse, crazy character.
That was a great character. I want to make a model out of them.
@@darko-man8549 3D-printing some kids, and some chains...🤔...yeah, I can see him, already...I also remember that guy removing his own lips, ears and eyelids...😐
@@Gothead420 I might not go with kids but yes
@@darko-man8549 Creepy enough, indeed. 😅
Reminds me of a Magos in the Word Bearers novels. He had a stumpy dwarf creature attached to him that absorbed all the negative things in his body, basically using it as ultra powerful kidneys so what's left of his organic bits remained pristine. So the little deformed monster had like every kind of cancer and organ failure and more just so the Magos he's attached to didn't have the inconvenience of mild discomfort due to ageing organic body parts.
Let's be clear Aaron Demski Bowden doesn't make Chaos boring lol
Oh, hell no! The First Heretic was brilliant
Of all things, TTS had a great concept with their version of Uriah. A (mostly) soft spoken chaotic priest who believes that there's more to worshiping the Chaos Gods than just absolute depravity and that you can exist in a symbiotic relationship with them, instead of focusing on their most base and primitive aspects like most chaos worshipers do.
A preacher like him would certainly be a more compelling antagonist to the Imperium than Abbadon, considering what the lives of most Imperial citizens are like.
Granted, if a more nuanced take on Chaos did exist in 40K, it would probably be a revolving door of "It works, you can worship the dark gods in a healthy way" and "no it doesn't, chaos is inherently evil" depending on who's writing on that day.
I don't think that concept even originates with TTS. I can't remember where but I read somewhere that in older codexes or lore, Chaos gods also had good traits like honor and valour in Khorne or love and happiness in Slaanesh but the turbulence in the warp and the constant conflicts in the material world twisted their very nature into what we know today.
all the "it works" plotlines would have precisely zero verisimilitude, and sound more like an ultracrepidarian trying to validate his garbage worldview through fans espousing garbage because he wrote it into a certain universe.
@@justinheads5751 bro really did just whip out 'ultracrepidarian'
I think the point of chaos is that, yeah it works at first, but it's supposed to slowly devolve into the base evil we see. The problem is that it's supposed to be *really* gradual, like, decades and generations. Eisenhorn does a good job of portraying that
On the purging the space marines like thunder warriors, I love the little interaction between an Iron warrior and some ultramarines (with some new primaris bois). The iron warrior is about to be killed by the ultramarines and just says "Thunder Warriors". And it starts a little convo between the ultramarines about the Thunder warriors and if a similar situation will happen with Primaris. The one old ultramarine just believes that if it is to happen, it is his duty to die.
Yeah that whole betrayal of the TW was stupid IMHO.
They only had a lifespans of about 50 years after transformation tops. Why not just let them grow old and die?
Well it is because this isn't the God-Emperor of Mankind, this is Neyoth!
Chaos itself is the issue. The unpredictable nature. And the certain set traits and influence of the god that has assumed control.
On the one hand it determines the goals and possibilities of a character. On the other hand it gives space for randomness in the sense of intervention by said god to throw everything off balance because warp.
I don't think this lends itself well to character development arcs. In fact I doubt it's possible unless chaos undevided. But then there is still the warp stuff.
It's similair to a gene stealer named character (is that even a thing?) that then would meet with the hive mind on top of that. They're not their own entity proper.
I don’t think Chaos itself makes characters boring, even though I’m an Imperium fan boy. Rather, the nature of Chaos tempts writers to write them as boring. Like Angron is boring, he’s used as a beat stick because it’s easier to write him like a brick than it is to make a compelling story about a blood addled maniac. Because Chaos encapsulates excess, it becomes easy to make the character one-dimensional.
That’s why stories of falling to Chaos or being tempted to do so are much more interesting. Personally, I would spice up Chaos by having more stories of Chaos characters tempted to return to the Imperium or trying to prevent some kind of religious split within a chaos god’s worshippers. Something that shows this Slaaneshi cultist and this other one have dogmatic disagreements.
Chaos characters like Kharn and Lucius are one dimensional in the end but they make good side character or enemies. But chaos as a whole can also make characters really interesting. Like the villain from Lion Son Of The Forest who had a more creative way of using chaos.
Yeah I was just saying that villain is a really interesting character. I’m just reading gates of bone, a couple of other interesting chaos villains. Lot of people saying only the fall to chaos is interesting but I think only for HH characters and the primarchs. I like seeing how these characters some of which have been fighting the long war 10 millennia cope with all their ups and downs and justify their actions and ideology and how they form little genuine bonds among themselves which often feel more human and real as they are chosen bonds than the some of the space marines stuff
@wephilips6651 most definitely. I also think Characters more tied into HH are supposed to have a tragic element to them, like Lucius being legit friends with Saul, and Ahriman trying to fix his legion. So you either get people whose whole story is tragedy or people whose whol story is being someone elses villain. I think its one of the issue with Word bearers whete they're never cool in anyones book but their own.
The only chaos book I’ve read was ‘Lords of Silence’. It was one of the more interesting WH novels I’ve read. In fact, it was almost like tripping when reading it.
I love that book. Chris Wraight is up there with ADB as best black library author
Nurgle as a whole has that vibe. It's like a trip, and not a good one
I'd like to read about a marine who turned to chaos, having a moment of clarity and sat in his thoughts. Then the chaos taking over again.
I feel like Gw just needs individual writers for each character at this point cause the multiple writers I feel is the problem
This, imo, is why the HH has some truly terrible and inconsistent writing
This, imo, is why the HH has some truly terrible and inconsistent writing
"Its not the race!!!!!,its the planet!!!!!",parady of dempsy quote about hell hounds.
New thing to have fun with...😂😂😂😂
It's why Huron is the most interesting chaos character. Yes, he's fallen, but his arc is far from complete.
That said, the black legion books by ADB did show that chaos can be interesting when written well. But that's by characters who are keeping themselves out of one god or another, and that battle. Those who are all in to a specific god seem to have a harder time of being interesting.
I do agree though, your idea of Lorgar vs Abaddon would be fascinating
The AL book, Shroud of Night, shows the issue with Khan in the modern setting. He was a force of nature, not a character.
been watching for a while but lurking, just wanted to tell you I heard your conversation with Northern Exile today, I really enjoyed it a lot. The question in this video is very interesting. I think when 40k was more Grimdark, Chaos was far more interesting. As GW has dropped the Grimdark, Chaos has in some ways become more comic villains, Evil for the sake of evil and with no goal but to be evil. Great video sir, as always, I really enjoy your take on the lore!
When you were talking about Magnus maybe getting a story where he hunts for his own shards, I had a weird idea come to mind. A recreation of the council of Nikea but it's just magnus put on trial by some of his own shards and forced to face his mistakes
My problem with Abaddon is he comes off as just a lesser, diet Horus. Abaddon hast to make bargains and deals with greater daemons, Horus just commanded them. Abaddon has to threaten and beg for support from the other Legions, Horus just commanded them. Abaddon hasn't gotten to the skies of Terra in 10,000 of war, while the Imperium is fighting on countless other battlefronts. Horus got to Terra in less than 10 years with the full industrial might of the Imperium against him.
And his goals don't make sense. He wants to kill the Emperor and "rule". Like...how? Is he going to sit on the Golden Throne? Does he think the Ultramarines will bend the knee? That the Sisters of Battle will start to worship him? At least Horus's plan to kill the Emperor and take over leads to a new Chaos God that eats all of humanity. That's at least an end goal. Abaddon feels like a dog chasing the mail truck - he just does it, unthinking, with no plans as to what happens if he gets it.
And having Abaddon go on some spirit quest just feels like a rehash of Horus or Lorgar's stories. That the best thing that can happen to Abaddon is just to re-use stories already spent on better, more important characters.
I think the best use for Abaddon is for the Chaos Gods to withdraw their support, yank the leash back, show him he's just the champion du jour. Countless have come before him, countless will come after. Horus was the big investment, and he killed the Emperor. Abaddon is just picking over the scraps and playing dress up with his father's claw. That would be a good twist for him, to realize for all his careful plots and plans not to be a puppet of Chaos, he ultimately 100% is and has just been deluding himself.
This is why I need GW writers to pour more into Abaddon writing, just give us something to grab onto, I know that’s what the scouring series will be for but you’ve had this character for 40 years or something and it’s like watching paint dry
Horus had the benefit of arranging nearly all the pieces on the board, had fully had that of the Imperium at the time, his weren't full on crazy at the time and Chaos generating warp storms to clear him a path. Abaddon has significantly fewer forces, far crazier and ambitious ones (even among his own Black Legion) and does not mere have the goal of kill the Emperor and not care what happens afterward.
Abaddon's best bet is divide and conquer. Something the Great Rift does well for him. If things go according to Abaddon's plan, I think he is powerful enough to take Terra, he creates that as seat of a new dark empire to conquer the galaxy all over again piece by piece. Near unending war for him to take part in. Made easier with the loss of the Astronomicon, but getting the shot and conquering the galaxy would be far easier when most of the Imperium is already on its knees or Chaos worlds. I think Archaon of WHFB/AoS makes an excellent template of what Abaddon's post Emperor assassination looks like.
I partly agree with you in that the video idea is basically Lorgar thinks he can lead better than the Warmaster and fails to do something about it. But this time it's Abaddon. Abaddon has already proven himself with his 12 Black Crusades. Which are far less retcons than this video, and the internet, makes them out to be. Abaddon certainly didn't get major victories out of all of them, and a few could be considered setbacks; but if viewed through the lens of gathering power and experience, nearly all were successful. The Black Crusades are what fans often want: generally a winning record, without being perfect.
Setting up a new guy as the Warmaster really doesn't fix anything and breaks a few things. Abaddon barely has control that he had secured over 10,000 years. Some FNG coming in is going also take 1,000s of years to come close to organizing such a force out of the power vacuum left behind. With Tyranid invasions becoming more frequent, Necrons waking up and everything else, I don't see another Warmaster of Chaos arising in time for some other faction to have beaten them to the punch of conquering the galaxy.
Abaddon is a puppet of Chaos. All Chaos space marines are. They are villains in a setting of villains. I honestly don't see a need in Abaddon needing growth, an arc or anything. He's always been the generic black knight, big bad evil guy archetype. He works because he is so cliché. I believe he was never intended to be characterized more than 'scary boogeyman' background in service of the stories players make up for their games of 40k.
The more these discussions come up, the more I think the novels, fleshing out the Horus Heresy and a continuing narrative, was a mistake. All creating this stuff has done is invite deconstruction of a setting that was obviously held together with bubblegum and chicken wire.
TL;DR: Let generic bad guys be generic bad guys.
"... a hulking beast on a skull of thrones..." Brilliant. 😂
Would we be able to get a video about the Old Night? Pretty interesting piece of the setting.
They get made boring because of the ridiculous child-like plot armor GW gives the imperium
Not anymore than being an imperial does. Writers make characters boring not necessarily the faction they're apart of.
The thing is once they become a part of chaos they become so simple that they are boring by themselves. Great as a plot device or threat but otherwise as characters not so much. Perhaps as a redemption or something it could work but with how it currently is not so much as it feels like the end of a journey.
The thing is CSP usually tend to be more interesting bc they are the more individualistic. All loyalist either follow the imperial cult or the imperial truth while the pawns of chaos not necesarilly need to follow their god to further their goals. Like ahiram, magnus, mortarion, abdadon, bile or huron, while the EC o WE legions are characterized by their god. They have more wriggle room for characterization.
Tell us youre not familiar with any warhammer lore AT ALL without telling us. You just did
@@leandrocastello309 I haven't seen any stories with complex chaos marines. Would you mind sharing?
@@aaronmontgomery2055 There is Fabius Bile in his trilogy.
Would love a voice acted full story video for Malcador. Definitely my favorite 30k character, and tied with Lukas the Trickster and Ciaphas Cain overall.
Unless GW is a Chaos God (which it could very much be one) the answer is NO.
Chaos is not boring. Only boring when u do not have creativity.
Magnus rejected redemption from big E for his sons. The same son who conducted a ritual to turn most of Magnus' sons into dusty automatons. What a tragic ending to a guy who does not learn from his mistakes. Did not try to negotiate or find a solution for the thousand sons with the Emperor (a deal of sort was done by Sanguinius) Now he is but a puppet chained against his will. The irony for the man who wanted to satisfy his curiosity, freedom, and his quest for a psychic human future.
Kharn is actually very intelligent, and charismatic. Im a huge fan of Kharn
There are some good stories for CSM, I like the Night Lords omnibus, the Black Legion series (Still waiting for that last book BL) and the Lords of Silence. When they get the spotlight, they're good. They're bitter, they desire revenge and they have an understandably hateful motivation, they seem less just crazy for the sake of being crazy and more like Honest Hearts Joshua Graham. They've been covered in pitch, set on fire and thrown into the grand canyon to die a forgotten and their memories spit on. Half the Imperium is the Imperium because of them and now that glory, that place in the universe they fought for and desired now belongs to others and they articulate and channel that hate in a way that is sympathetic.
Most of the time though they are one dimensional bad guys who are just edgy nihilists, every last one of them. Doesn't matter their loyalties to any particular deity or if they worship undivided, they just fall flat.
Which is a shame because they have changed in many positive ways since the Horus Heresy and I find this best exemplified in the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors take leave from the Siege of Terra and make a massive fortress to challenge the Imperial Fists. When the Imperial Fists do finally come, they lose BADLY. The Imperial Fists at this point are veterans all of the most desperate defense in human history AND they already are considered one of the best siege warfare experts. They show up and it's bad. On day one the Imperial Fists are locked into the Iron Cage, they can't get resupplied and their fleet is rendered irrelevant. The following weeks are absolute murder, they've run out of ammo, companies devolve into squads, squads devolve into individual knife fights, captured defenses provide no utility at best, at worse they're a trap and they lose badly while the Iron Warriors are essentially just performing an execution and when they finally get to the heart of the fortress, it's worthless, a joke.
The second instance is at Hydra Cordatus where we no longer see Iron Warriors being expended like ammunition. They're performing night time probing's and sabotage, they infiltrate the planet to sabotage key points, they infect a Tyranid ship to be used against the Imperial Fists, yes it is still a bloody ordeal for the Iron Warriors, but now we see that they're much smarter. The Imperial Fists? They are the same stalwart defenders that were on Terra 10,000 years ago, which is still good, but we don't see progression, we just see the same old Imperial Fists.
I like the CSM faction, they can be done right, but they do frequently, in every sphere of the IP, get shafted. They are essentially reduced to just the bad guys getting killed to make the hero's look good and that is disappointing
I think they just need active mirrors both in the legions and in other renegades that can make the characters feel unique. Not just that they are paragons for the gods but rather showing how they may be flawed and there are others who see/ work through and with Chaos in a, perhaps, better and more updated way versus these older relics of the Heresy.
I realize time works differently in the warp and such but it would give GW some ability to expand upon what happened between the Scouring and the present day with some Renegade legions or the Imperium. Or even how the current state might be affecting like first born chapters. Just something to make the characters of Chaos have more to bounce off of in the story rather than just being their past and that's it. As in having them actually interact with these new characters as well to create productive conflict in the story for these characters and the setting.
Yea, a little bit, in my opinion. The big draw of the Warhammer universe to me is the constant struggle against the dying of the light, and to me, falling to chaos feels like the giving up of a character. That being said, that’s just for me personally, like what you like ❤
No but they have fewer options for character development I think. Like, at this stage, can’t imagine too many chaos marines are still like “we’re on the right side of history here fellas” lol so they’re aware they’re the bad guys in this situation. And they’ve decided, for one reason or another, to roll with it. But you still get great characters like Bile, Ahriman, Erebus and Kharn. But then you also get characters like Lucius who’s just like “I’m SOOOOOOO evil!!! Look how EEEEEEEEEVIL I am, I look like a snakie faced snake man and have a hentai whip because I’m SOOOOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEVIL” 😂😂
I mean, that's just Slaanesh. Out of all the chaos gods, Slaanesh is the most obviously evil one and it's suitable that his chosen would embody that. You know, it's the whole "inflict agony and eat their souls" thing. I don't see how you make that nuanced.
It's contrasted by being the only faction where having fun and enjoying yourself is encouraged, which really messes with my mind, as that is something I want, but not at the price of becoming the worst...just the worst, end of sentence.
@@jabloko992 that’s a really great point. Honestly, Slaanesh is the chaos god that bothers me the most profoundly; the intense r*pey vibes get my hackles up big time. Could be why, where as I hate someone like Erebus but still enjoy reading about him because he’s fun to hate, Fulgrim and Lucius make me feel a “go the fuck away” hate.
17:58 then they can show he made the civil war,
and i forget the primearchs name went to the warp,
then they can show why he went there,
and then the inperium can learn what the word bearers did to get him mad,
then the inperium will do something because they just learned the emporor doesnt like them and wants religion gone.
3:52 the chaos legions are shadows of the inperium.
And chaos is the inperiums shadows they litterlly cant understand,
because if they did see their own reflection,
the inperium would just be all human and cyborg and edited humans of the night hunter,
something even the dark elder couldnt escape from.
The tyrinids and necrons its still a fight though.
It's the same issue many stories of "corruption" have. The end product is "final" and static and rarely as interesting as the journey to get there.
Yeah mortarian, pertetabo, magus, kharn, Ahriman, Iskander Khayon, Talos, Sevetar, Argal Tal, Erebus, Fabius bile…so so boring 🙄
I think Kharn needs to come in contact with "The Good" so powerful. That it drives back to the Emperor's graces & somehow betrays Khorne so massively. That he gets rejected, gets his powers revoked but instead of him and his soul disintegrating in warp flames. He burnst into them permanently & is joined by an entire Legion....A Legion of the Damned.
Kharn going back to how Khorne was originally framed in the 90s/2000’s, as the god of honor and martial pride rather than rage and fury would make him more interesting.
There needs to be more stories of chaos worshippers being redeemed or actively fighting their deity to make it interesting.
As it is now once you fall you became a 2D comic book villain.
That would be interesting but how exactly does one come back from chaos corruption?
@isaiahsmith6016 there is a tipping point where your soul is claimed but you can be corrupted quite a bit before then. Daemons also regularly rebel against their god so it can be the same for mortals.
@@isaiahsmith6016There likely are ways, because during Godblight when Big E possesses Guilliman, he tells Mortarion that he may one day be redeemed, but for now he must go back to the master he chose (Nurgle). Whether this requires the creature to first be willing to be redeemed or can be done in spite of the creature’s desires, we have no idea. It may be something only Big E could pull off.
There is precedent for this, though. Horus is temporarily cleansed of Chaos corruption shortly before he is killed.
Chaos characters are definitely some of my top favourite ones in all of 40k, because they can be so nuanced by their personal histories and unique flavour of damnation. But, like all factions, really need good writing to not become too simple. For the sake of using a xenos example: Farsight is a really well written character in his novels, with relatable flaws and dreams.
Because faction who's victory means the end of the world/universe/galaxy is always boring. And we also never shall forget that while writers chose to create AoS it was Chaos they used as the tool to end the beloved FB.
I have been busy AF in life, not had chance to listen... YET. And I will reply to this comment after I do listen, but my gut reaction to the question, "Does Chaos make characters boring?", is.... 1000% yes. After watching, maybe tonight, I will see if my opinion changes but I am betting no.
"The Fall from Grace" is a beloved story line as is the "Redemption Arc" ... question is:
"Is redeeming CSM viable without destroying the faction?"
Ironically, Chaos almost needs a PR campaign, showing it as a viable destination.
As for myself, it s the simple honesty of Chaos that I appreciate. It delievers exactly as it reads on the tin.
No fake bravado for the false emperor of mankind, no pretends about a greater good ... Chaos just Is.
Even that blasted trickster god is open about its trickery.
More nuance in the characters is needed.
More conflict between good and evil. More sympathy. More empathy. More tragedy.
Without destroying their allegiance to chaos or their purpose.
They all can't be evil cackling malevolent villains. Gets boring.
This is aimed more at the 40k crowd rather than the 30k lot, who are written better.
12:33 supernatural show/bible=a good guy falling starts the end of the world.
Wait?...
Quincidence?...
50% no./50% yes..
9:43 the chaos armies have phycoligists that care about their army.arhamon.
9:43 this is why i think im from it=
I thought of a phyker that kills for korn,but korn wont help him/he just hates him.
but the phyker keeps killing with super powers and weopons.
But korn still wont help him.
And hes extremelly infamous for genicide.
He probbally should be a demon prince by now,but isnt.
=karn useing phykers and thinking.
=see?...,=still in 30,000,
i think im from the 30,000 specifically/too many quincidences.
The most interesting Chaos characters are the ones that don't want to be.
Is that Chris tester as abaddon? Awesome voice acting as always
Yes it is! He’s litterally the best voiceover actor for 40K stuff!
Eh if chaos is boring, then the soace wolfs make you fall asleep
It’s why Huron is more interesting than Abbadon.
The latter, we keep getting told, is manipulating chaos for his own end. He isn’t “just a pawn”. But then Huron actually has motivation beyond chaos. Renegades are the most interesting part of the SM factions. They get to be a grey area in what ends up being quite a black and white group. Obviously not all renegades are equal. Flesh Tearers are renegade but staunchly loyal. Farsight is a renegade T’au and is the only interesting part of their story so far imo 😂
What Abbadon should be sort of reminds me of Darth Kreia - wanting to be free of the Force’s Will
16:50 iron hands show why not showing emotion/emotions is bad.
GW is insistent on stagnation in the setting which leads to interesting chaos characters but never progressing.
Huron and Honsou and Talos all spring to mind, but these guys are all minimally corrupted. The more corrupted the more Saturday morning villain they seemingly become
We’re just waiting for Vashtor to ascend and for Purty to be his daemon prince 🙏🏾
Abbadon versus Huron Blackheart would be an interesting dynamic.
Nykona returning in modern 40k isn't the craziest thing I could think of. Nykona didn't really "die" but was very near death with Garuda and the Magna Mater. He could of been found by the 13th or Martian adepts who ice box Sharrowkyn and wake him up periodically for Primarizing himself or being periodically woken up to train the Ultima Founding Raven Guard over the millenia. Still no story about how the Raven Guard received their Indomitus care package from Robby G. Nykona could be inserted there.
There's so much potential in the 40k verse and GW keep cocking up....like how?!?!?
many years as dm taught me that controversial villains are very interesting, the ambiguity and grey area in ethics gives colour to all, BUT sometimes, most of the times actually, you need an anapologetic villain, doent even need great depth , just a old school demon without ambiguity is the meat and potatoes, that why Erebus is the Greatest Villain in wh40k imo.
43:40 OMG from 12 tasks of Hercules to 12 tasks of Abaddon
My only issue with many of these ideas is making even more about 40K all about the Heresy
Talon of horus and black legion novels got me into the hobbie where ive spent over $40,000 in 4 years.
Abaddon is my favorite character but i did not like him in 30k later when i read over 130 books audible but him in the 41st owwwww yeah BEAST!
Same. Those books sparked something in me and I’ve spent years kitbashing and converting the Ezakariaon
"$40,000 in 4 years." Damn, this hobby really is plastic crack.
It's a side effect of the stagnant/stuck setting, no ?
If sigismund was still alive in 40k, he would be as boring as they are.
Whereas Loyalists can have full characters arc, because they live and die (They get recruited, rise through the rank, etc), traitors are often the spacemarines that fought in the heresy. So in a sense, they are basically stagnant like the setting, but they don't really have the thematic advantage loyalists have (The whole "Rage ! Rage against the dying of the Light" feeling 40k has) It's especially true for the Primarchs, because these are characters so "big", that they can't act without moving the plot forward, much like the Emperor or the 4 chaos Gods. You could argue that's why they essentially had to be written out for 40k to even happen.
I guess if GamesWorkshop had planned things a bit more, they could have made the Primarch dissapearance a slower process, like, instead of having them all gone in M31 (with the exception of vulkan reappearance). If they slowly dissapeared one by one over the millenias, there could have been more chances for moving things along a bit, even if the fundamental premise (the emperor is dead) was still the same.
I mean, it kinda makes sense that the faction which feeds on souls would drain the soul out of its characters
I actually think Chaos Space Marines or rather Renegades are way more interesting than loyalist bc they are so flawed but weirdly often more human than their loyalist counterparts. Mostly because they feel more like individuals than faceless soldiers like the First Claw of the Night Lords, Lords of Silence, Fabius Warband etc. Loyalist often feel pretty stale imo. Often they are just those stoic, ultraloyal killing maschines. Not all of course but still a huge chunk which makes them so boring.
I think it depends on the character you-
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
I mean, the nuance of the tragic fall of the-
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
If you look at it from a character driven dichoto-
KILL! MAIM! BURN!
*Sigh*.
Yes. Yes it does. (Huron did nothing wrong).
thats a weird question when all the most boring characters are named Space Marines. You can't call your setting grim dark when its actually just edgy British Shonen anime.
Magnus is stagnant? 7th Edition, He invaded Fenris and reclaimed Prospero. 8th Edition he fought Guilliman on Luna. 9th Edition he enacted a great ritual and was barely stopped by Grey Knights and Dark Angels. What more do you want?
I never thought Abaddon was particularly interesting character any way. The other four members of the Mournival had some substance, nuance or depth, but not Abaddon.
However, I think chaos itself creates interesting arcs for characters to fall, but, and I think this is more of a 40K (we might also see this in other similar media) the fall is the goal because of their tabletop story - they were corrupted/tempted and now they're an adversary in perpetuity. GW do now seem to experimenting more (I know they've done this occasionally in the past) with progressing the plot, which means the characters do have more scope for growth, so maybe we'll see something more than an end-point of antagonist.
I'm really enjoying the channel and wish I found it a bit earlier. Only complaint is occasionally stumbling on spoilery bits - I started reading the HH when released (I was a fantasy player, but the HH caught my imagination from the old RoC books) but I'm only half way through. I don't know if could time stamp the sections with the books your sourcing from? I totally get it if it's a pain though.
Abaddon as an underwhelming slightly dull antagonist has become a meme (because it’s true!) but I was shocked how little effort was spent in the HH series trying to correct that.
Read fall of Cadia and talon of Horus…it’s a close as Abaddon comes to being interesting
I haven't watched yet, but i will say I always found the idea of chaos very interesting in how wide of a net as far as characters it can incorporate. granted they are in no shortage of old fashioned power hungry bad guys, but there are also characters like Ahriman who sees chaos as a means to an end or Akkura who sees that the imperium must be destroyed for humanity and is willing to make any sacrifice. Even for the obvious bad guys like Bile and Typhus have very different beliefs about what chaos even is and have very different goals for the galaxy.
All these characters walk down a path of damnation. But each of them have different traits and beliefs that very clearly make them who they are. I would say chaos actually often opens the door for a layer of complexity as characters often deal with the issue of them not sharing a unified belief but often having to work together anyways.
if the primarchs can get corrupted what chance do regular humans have, kinda kills the whole universe just endless fighting , i guess thats what they want if they dont want it end and sale stuff.
Where is that Ahriman Artwork from @33:30?
No. The end.
I don't think it's that chaos is boring it's that it is predictable and their motivations are out in the open.
Chaos makes characters interesting. Kharn the betrayer? Yeah a ravening butcher with cybernetic implants in his head is cool, but it only gets more interesting when they retroactively have to give him character development during the heresy. Same with lucius, even Abaddon, Aximand etc. the reasons for and their feelings about their fall to chaos are some of the most interesting and often tragic storylines in the lore.
Most do. Half of them can't even remember why they or their forebears rebelled against the emperor, preform the same generic "death to the emperor" speel or are seeking to screw over everyone in their warband for more power (demon prince). Interesting chaos or anti chaos fractions include the Alpha Legion and some loyalists that are on the fringes.. still loyal but very much anti-heroes. Some Iron Warriors are very self aware but too much of man children to do much of anything else but whine. Night Lords are just a-holes just to be a-holes. Not asking for a redemption ark for them but I think the majority of the traitor legionaries that were from the first generation who still are alive regret a lot of their actions.
And still, GW refuses to give SOMETHING to the IW...barely mentions them...
Iron Within...
Short answer: Yes
Long Answer: YEEEEEESS
Chaos has been so watered down from what it was back in the day where it was an interesting dynamic faction with good parts and bad parts into this schlocky cheesy over the top Saturday Cartoon Villain that I can't take it seriously anymore. It's tragic.
@@thechazz3230 I’m genuinely curious: what chaos books have you read recently?
I guess it depends on what you want out of the character? I *like* bloodthirsty, evil, zealous warlords hellbent on the utter ruin of the entire galaxy and too high on their own power to care about the drawbacks, so Chaos is fucking fantastic for me.
As an Iron Warriors player I love our vague and absent supposedly chaos primarch. 😕
Would be hilarious if Perty has just retired onvsome random world away from all the fighting without anyone knowing. Like Thanos after the end of Infinity War.
They're supposedly boring because gw can't let them outshine the space marines. The apocalypse novel is a fun listen from the word bearers side of the book but it wasn't about them so you can guess the outcome
16:50 showing power is the only thing that matters shows 1 part of toxic masculinity is bad.
Redemption is how you make chaos interesting.
Despite the title and thumbnail I expected an audio book.
I was throw out of that idea when you spoke.
Very strange
Maybe these ideas can be shared in a more optimal way and the video can be presented very differently as not to build misleading expectations.
Khorne’s entire concept in my personal opinion is extremely boring. And people who follow him are boring. They’re all basically mustache twisting serial killers. It’s a dumb concept.
ahhh it sort of is but zech is cool i like the lord of change if done right actully the new look into world eaters was more sad i likedthe way thay turend out nut black legion theres no room for them i think hes not a primarch he should be killed off and get on with bigger baddys like logars death lol then there is the iron lords return will be good
I feel like that the problem with revealing 30k lore is that it lessens 40k lore. Everyone is supposed to be weak compared to their peak strength.
Space Marines' Primarks aren't supposed to be on the table.
Orks used to be the size of churches.
Elder used to have a vast empire.
Necrons used to rule the galaxy.
Once you reveal each factions good old days you lessen the appeal of 40k as the worst possible future.
The real problem here is stagnation, chaos is supossed to be a mutable force upon everyone and everything and yet they seem to be the most rigid of factuons, my take is the black legion needs to dbe vroken and Abaddon true killed and kets someone else o many else with writers for each of this factions taje the power and lets keep moving the lore forwards, we need need fall of heroes, new villains new characters and maybe sone redemtions too.
Boring writers make boring characters - not Chaos. A good writer can make any character interesting.
17:58 how can they learn about the thunder warriors?... ... ...
Chaos have no family or further interests, so that makes them boring. They are lacking a greater motive, in general.
I think, in general terms, I like that Chaos gets to emote and have passion (other than the crusading kind). I think it's fun when chaos shows positive emotional traits that are generally not shown in the Imperium.
Yes it does! I hate any story or book about chaos. They are the adversary that's all.