I have been using Chalkless for a few months now and here is my take on it: - For bouldering, I like it. It feels good and it works for multplie boulders, but after maybe 30min I need to reapply it. - For rope climbing it is a bit of a mixed bag. It works, but usually only for 1-2 routes, before you start noticing a lack of grip and want to chalk up. It can act as a base layer together with chalk, but even then, I notice a lessening of the effect after 1-3 routes. - Due to the health concerns, I am more careful about touching my face during a session and try not to breath in the thin particles when applying and rubbing it. I stopped using it for rope climbing, but will continue using it for bouldering. (Have not yet tried it outdoors on natural rock, because of the lack of opportunities to wash your hands before e.g. eating lunch.)
Great video, it's interesting to see how close the performance of chalkless is to old faithful. However, I don't think the section with the MD examined what peoples concerns were. It wasn't about silicosis via the hands but concern that when brushing holds chalkless would become aerosolised and that would entail silicosis. I imagine thats probably outside their remit but a recent study (Spring this year) suggested that the rubber that is aerosolised in gyms from brushing could cause longterm respiratory problems
Agreed. Exposure to airborne silica is classified as a human lung carcinogen. Magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate (chalk) is not a human lung carcinogen. If this product has any chance of getting into the air it's going to hurt people.
Glad you liked the video! Fair point about the MD. I haven't really tested how it becomes aerosolized when brushed off holds. It's difficult when interviewing medical professionals and scientists, because I want to educate my viewers, but at the same time it can be difficult to cover everything in a well trimmed 10-15 minute UA-cam video! Also, interesting about the rubber in climbing gyms. That kind of stresses me out, I'll have to look that one up!
To be honest, I think this is just very poor marketing on the people who are selling it. Silica dust is rock dust, and if you climb outdoors, you are already inhaling it at levels orders of magnitude above what you would get second hand from putting a light dusting of this on your hands. It's important to point out that this isn't anything special, it's just silica dust. The very same dust you see on the dusty holds of a rarely travelled rock climb. Is it dangerous? Not much more than, well... dust. Silicosis is a condition that results from chronic dust exposure, i.e. working 8 hours a day in an environment that has a high level of silica dust. What is high? Well, according to OSHA, a level of over 50 micrograms/cubic meter of air averaged over an 8 hour shift.
Another use for this would be in areas where there is a no chalk ethic. Where I grew up there was an area where chalking was prohibited (basically by the honor system) to preserve the beauty of the area.
Definitely. Its one of the Positives I mentioned in this first video is that it doesnt leave marks on clothes or holds which is cool. I used to climb on some sea cliffs with a no chalk ethic and always got sketched out whenever my hands got sweaty!
Totally missed the point with the doctor consultation.. I tried this stuff after your first vid. To apply it you have to pour some into one hand and then rub your hands together, but when doing so you can actually see a cloud of fine dust going into the air, enough for me to be pretty sketched out by this product. If an entire gym started using it I would be out of there so fast! As someone with sweatier hands I wanted this product to work, but I didn't feel like it made much difference even when combined with chalk unfortunately
Thanks for the feedback. I havent really noticed a cloud of dust when I use it, and maybe I’m used to chalk clouds as a comparison, which Chalkless definitely does not come close to the plumage that chalk creates. Also thanks for the feedback about sweatier hands and it not working as effectively!
@@Natemitka yeah it's just not as visible as chalk so you have to look for it, but it's there. Was just hoping to hear her thoughts on that kind of thing instead of skin contact
I feel like this stuff would rub off after climbing a few slopy, rough textured climbs - considering that even your first layer of skin comes off. Seems rather expensive if you have to reapply it a few times each session. Although I don't how much one bottle lasts
I definitely noticed it started to degrade climbing outside on rougher or more abrasive surfaces. Although having it for the past few months, I actually think this stuff is pretty competitive for the price, one bottle will last a long time.
From my understanding, this is perfectly safe to use in the quantity and manner shown. And guys, don't be fooled by the name. Silica dust is commonly found in sand, clay, soil, air, water, etc. This is essentially sticky dust. Which.... surpise surprise... is also what calcium carbonate is! But who am i kidding, climbers will never accept this. Climbers hate anything that isn't being done the exact way they learned to do it.
I believe the dangers of Silica dust are more due to their structure tends to make it work it's way deeper into you lungs rather than out over time, so it is different from chalk. That being said, yes it is in sand and everywhere. That is why you need to wear a respirator when when sand blasting. But I don't think rub off of concentrated silica dust is at risk of being aerosolized enough to be a problem. My initial erk was if the bottle exploded for some reason and you breathed it in but that is likely an irrational fear.
Haha change is hard! I’m just trying out a new product and seeing how it performs. I do think though that after my conversation with the MD, silica changes based on its chemical composition, so silica silylate is slightly different than quartz. But hey, I’m no chemist 🤷♂️
I just got some antihydral and haven't tried it out yet, but I would say after using this Chalkless stuff, I don't notice my skin peeling off like it does with some Rhino skin or antihydral products, but then again I would say chalkless doesn't make my skin feel more durable or stiff like other products might
The test should be with people who have very sweaty hands though. My girlfriend for example literally leaves wet marks on holds as she goes - probably after the first 2-3 moves. For her this could be a game changer, in case it actually prevents or soaks up sweat for the duration of at least a whole problem.
hey matankedar, I have bught this my self and tested it with a couple of friends aswell. From what we noticed, in general, it works for sweaty hands, but you should wash your hands before and use it before you use chalk or anything else. One of my friends did first use chalk and then chalkess and had soapy hands. this is, because the chalk is a crystal and keeps on your hands by getting stuck between the small skin cracks. once it tecks the water, it binds it. As chalkless is a like a second skin, this wet chalk can't get away and its starts to smear. So you can use chalkess and the chalk. Just keep in mind, every person is different, some get better result with chalk, some with liquied chalk and some with chalkless.
Oh midnight lightening is local? That's so cool I didn't realize. Yeah word silica scares me because it's been hammered into my skull at work that silica dust will kill me.
So you're based in Squamish? Nice! Silica definitely is frightening, and I definitely don't want my video to serve as proof of it being safe or harmful one way or another. Just wanted to add one more perspective.
I think there’s no way this should become popular, the potential hazards of having this stuff on hold and hands and having to have it brushed and washed off climbing holds are just too great. I feel like this stuff should be treated the same way as rosin liquid chalks.
I definitely don't know the long term effects on climbing holds that this stuff will lead to, but to argue a bit, chalk on climbing holds is kind of terrible, it creates white blotches on beautiful rock faces and repeated chalking leads to greasy or polished holds which suck to climb on. I don't know if the Silica will lead to polished holds or damaged crags because Chalkless is new to the market, but one immediate positive of Chalkless is that it's clear, so you won't leave white splotches or marks on rocks or climbing holds. Of course, I don't know if it will clog the rock up, but Quartz is made out of the same stuff.
@ i don’t even really mean that it should be considered as a hazard to the holds, i mean it as a hazard to the people. I feel like this should be treated as a must-avoid product like rosin liquid chalks bc it could be bad for climbers. I’m sure it wouldn’t be great for holds though and would definitely polish them faster, much like people climbing with sandy shoes.
@@amethyst8399 Well, I don't think that makes much sense given the info in the video. I see no evidence that dermal exposure to a small amount of silica (which is also a main component, as stated, in rock, concrete, glass, and sand) is likely to cause damage. And as stated, there's no evidence that in the quantities given, there's risk of inhalation damage. Inhalation damage is a result of chronic exposure to a very large amount of airborne silica (i.e. a dust cloud). From my understanding of silica, this is essentially a small amount of sticky dust. It's not likely to be harmful, and certainly pales in comparison to the inherent risks associated with scaling large rock faces. but I'm sure we'll be loathe to adopt it because it's something different, and if there's anything I learned it's that climbers hate anything different.
It would be very interesting to study the impact this could have on the air quality of a climbing gym if they banned regular chalk and provided everyone with this stuff instead. If the air quality would improve I could see that being a huge benefit for the gym employees, if it got worse maybe the usage of this should be restricted.
Silicosis is caused by breathing in christalized forms of silica dioxide. This product is pure silica silylate, which is a silica dioxide derivate. Whether this product is dangerous depends largely whether its chrystalized or in amorphous state, but its important to not that the amorphous state is still not risk free, just significantly less dangerous. But it also depends on particle size, which might be a problem when it gets brushed off holds. There is only a single study investigating the safety of silica silylate, but its done in the context of cosmetics where the silica silylate is part of a more complex product with a max concentration of 25%, therefore it doesnt apply to the pure product. We dont have the data to say its dangerous, but we also dont have the data to conclude that its truly safe.
I have been using Chalkless for a few months now and here is my take on it:
- For bouldering, I like it. It feels good and it works for multplie boulders, but after maybe 30min I need to reapply it.
- For rope climbing it is a bit of a mixed bag. It works, but usually only for 1-2 routes, before you start noticing a lack of grip and want to chalk up. It can act as a base layer together with chalk, but even then, I notice a lessening of the effect after 1-3 routes.
- Due to the health concerns, I am more careful about touching my face during a session and try not to breath in the thin particles when applying and rubbing it.
I stopped using it for rope climbing, but will continue using it for bouldering.
(Have not yet tried it outdoors on natural rock, because of the lack of opportunities to wash your hands before e.g. eating lunch.)
Great video, it's interesting to see how close the performance of chalkless is to old faithful.
However, I don't think the section with the MD examined what peoples concerns were. It wasn't about silicosis via the hands but concern that when brushing holds chalkless would become aerosolised and that would entail silicosis. I imagine thats probably outside their remit but a recent study (Spring this year) suggested that the rubber that is aerosolised in gyms from brushing could cause longterm respiratory problems
It really depends on how much of it sticks to the holds. But a very valid concern still. Testing this seems very difficult though
Agreed. Exposure to airborne silica is classified as a human lung carcinogen. Magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate (chalk) is not a human lung carcinogen. If this product has any chance of getting into the air it's going to hurt people.
Glad you liked the video! Fair point about the MD. I haven't really tested how it becomes aerosolized when brushed off holds. It's difficult when interviewing medical professionals and scientists, because I want to educate my viewers, but at the same time it can be difficult to cover everything in a well trimmed 10-15 minute UA-cam video! Also, interesting about the rubber in climbing gyms. That kind of stresses me out, I'll have to look that one up!
To be honest, I think this is just very poor marketing on the people who are selling it. Silica dust is rock dust, and if you climb outdoors, you are already inhaling it at levels orders of magnitude above what you would get second hand from putting a light dusting of this on your hands. It's important to point out that this isn't anything special, it's just silica dust. The very same dust you see on the dusty holds of a rarely travelled rock climb. Is it dangerous? Not much more than, well... dust.
Silicosis is a condition that results from chronic dust exposure, i.e. working 8 hours a day in an environment that has a high level of silica dust. What is high? Well, according to OSHA, a level of over 50 micrograms/cubic meter of air averaged over an 8 hour shift.
Another use for this would be in areas where there is a no chalk ethic. Where I grew up there was an area where chalking was prohibited (basically by the honor system) to preserve the beauty of the area.
Definitely. Its one of the Positives I mentioned in this first video is that it doesnt leave marks on clothes or holds which is cool. I used to climb on some sea cliffs with a no chalk ethic and always got sketched out whenever my hands got sweaty!
It's that stuff the main dude sprayed on his feet in Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs.
from the thumbnail i thought bro made his own mag juice
Maybe I'll try that in my next video...
Totally missed the point with the doctor consultation..
I tried this stuff after your first vid. To apply it you have to pour some into one hand and then rub your hands together, but when doing so you can actually see a cloud of fine dust going into the air, enough for me to be pretty sketched out by this product. If an entire gym started using it I would be out of there so fast!
As someone with sweatier hands I wanted this product to work, but I didn't feel like it made much difference even when combined with chalk unfortunately
Thanks for the feedback. I havent really noticed a cloud of dust when I use it, and maybe I’m used to chalk clouds as a comparison, which Chalkless definitely does not come close to the plumage that chalk creates. Also thanks for the feedback about sweatier hands and it not working as effectively!
@@Natemitka yeah it's just not as visible as chalk so you have to look for it, but it's there. Was just hoping to hear her thoughts on that kind of thing instead of skin contact
I feel like this stuff would rub off after climbing a few slopy, rough textured climbs - considering that even your first layer of skin comes off. Seems rather expensive if you have to reapply it a few times each session. Although I don't how much one bottle lasts
I definitely noticed it started to degrade climbing outside on rougher or more abrasive surfaces. Although having it for the past few months, I actually think this stuff is pretty competitive for the price, one bottle will last a long time.
From my understanding, this is perfectly safe to use in the quantity and manner shown. And guys, don't be fooled by the name. Silica dust is commonly found in sand, clay, soil, air, water, etc. This is essentially sticky dust. Which.... surpise surprise... is also what calcium carbonate is!
But who am i kidding, climbers will never accept this. Climbers hate anything that isn't being done the exact way they learned to do it.
I believe the dangers of Silica dust are more due to their structure tends to make it work it's way deeper into you lungs rather than out over time, so it is different from chalk. That being said, yes it is in sand and everywhere. That is why you need to wear a respirator when when sand blasting. But I don't think rub off of concentrated silica dust is at risk of being aerosolized enough to be a problem. My initial erk was if the bottle exploded for some reason and you breathed it in but that is likely an irrational fear.
Haha change is hard! I’m just trying out a new product and seeing how it performs. I do think though that after my conversation with the MD, silica changes based on its chemical composition, so silica silylate is slightly different than quartz. But hey, I’m no chemist 🤷♂️
U think this will give me a better ‘grip’ on what’s really important? Like extra grippy
Interesting I've been looking at options outside of antihydral for drying out my skin I wonder how effective this would be 🤔
I just got some antihydral and haven't tried it out yet, but I would say after using this Chalkless stuff, I don't notice my skin peeling off like it does with some Rhino skin or antihydral products, but then again I would say chalkless doesn't make my skin feel more durable or stiff like other products might
@ yeah I’m a little bit scared of anyihydral absolutely demolishing my hand skin health 😅
Will look into trying chalkless, great video by the way!
@@josephhyunsuchun Thanks! Glad you liked it!
The test should be with people who have very sweaty hands though. My girlfriend for example literally leaves wet marks on holds as she goes - probably after the first 2-3 moves. For her this could be a game changer, in case it actually prevents or soaks up sweat for the duration of at least a whole problem.
That’s wild, I know, I want to see people with sweaty hands try this! I’ve only seen it used on myself and a couple of friends
@ I’ll order it and let her try for herself and let you know!
Ya we need Mr sweaty hands himself to try. Magnus
hey matankedar, I have bught this my self and tested it with a couple of friends aswell. From what we noticed, in general, it works for sweaty hands, but you should wash your hands before and use it before you use chalk or anything else.
One of my friends did first use chalk and then chalkess and had soapy hands. this is, because the chalk is a crystal and keeps on your hands by getting stuck between the small skin cracks. once it tecks the water, it binds it. As chalkless is a like a second skin, this wet chalk can't get away and its starts to smear.
So you can use chalkess and the chalk.
Just keep in mind, every person is different, some get better result with chalk, some with liquied chalk and some with chalkless.
@@rankala awesome thanks for sharing your experience!
Oh midnight lightening is local? That's so cool I didn't realize. Yeah word silica scares me because it's been hammered into my skull at work that silica dust will kill me.
So you're based in Squamish? Nice! Silica definitely is frightening, and I definitely don't want my video to serve as proof of it being safe or harmful one way or another. Just wanted to add one more perspective.
I think there’s no way this should become popular, the potential hazards of having this stuff on hold and hands and having to have it brushed and washed off climbing holds are just too great. I feel like this stuff should be treated the same way as rosin liquid chalks.
Isn’t resin almost completely harmless? Unlike silicon oxide dust.
@ health wise yeah but it polishes the living fuck out of holds, so i meant more as a no go product than 1:1 comparison
I definitely don't know the long term effects on climbing holds that this stuff will lead to, but to argue a bit, chalk on climbing holds is kind of terrible, it creates white blotches on beautiful rock faces and repeated chalking leads to greasy or polished holds which suck to climb on. I don't know if the Silica will lead to polished holds or damaged crags because Chalkless is new to the market, but one immediate positive of Chalkless is that it's clear, so you won't leave white splotches or marks on rocks or climbing holds. Of course, I don't know if it will clog the rock up, but Quartz is made out of the same stuff.
@ i don’t even really mean that it should be considered as a hazard to the holds, i mean it as a hazard to the people. I feel like this should be treated as a must-avoid product like rosin liquid chalks bc it could be bad for climbers. I’m sure it wouldn’t be great for holds though and would definitely polish them faster, much like people climbing with sandy shoes.
@@amethyst8399 Well, I don't think that makes much sense given the info in the video. I see no evidence that dermal exposure to a small amount of silica (which is also a main component, as stated, in rock, concrete, glass, and sand) is likely to cause damage. And as stated, there's no evidence that in the quantities given, there's risk of inhalation damage. Inhalation damage is a result of chronic exposure to a very large amount of airborne silica (i.e. a dust cloud).
From my understanding of silica, this is essentially a small amount of sticky dust. It's not likely to be harmful, and certainly pales in comparison to the inherent risks associated with scaling large rock faces. but I'm sure we'll be loathe to adopt it because it's something different, and if there's anything I learned it's that climbers hate anything different.
It would be very interesting to study the impact this could have on the air quality of a climbing gym if they banned regular chalk and provided everyone with this stuff instead.
If the air quality would improve I could see that being a huge benefit for the gym employees, if it got worse maybe the usage of this should be restricted.
Yeah, interesting thought. I know climbing gyms have very thorough air ventilation systems in place because of all the chalk in the air.
The chalk of Midnight Lightning looks great but no delivery to Europe :-(
Ah shoot! Let me ask about this
Nope. I also worry about the unknowns when others use this in the same gym as me.
Pretty funny how people are like "SiLiCa BaD" then but no idea what silicosis is or how it's even acquired.
For sure. Just trying to provide some education to the internet!
Silicosis is caused by breathing in christalized forms of silica dioxide. This product is pure silica silylate, which is a silica dioxide derivate.
Whether this product is dangerous depends largely whether its chrystalized or in amorphous state, but its important to not that the amorphous state is still not risk free, just significantly less dangerous. But it also depends on particle size, which might be a problem when it gets brushed off holds.
There is only a single study investigating the safety of silica silylate, but its done in the context of cosmetics where the silica silylate is part of a more complex product with a max concentration of 25%, therefore it doesnt apply to the pure product.
We dont have the data to say its dangerous, but we also dont have the data to conclude that its truly safe.
@@DonQuiKong particle size
E dublagem automática por ia é simplesmente péssima! Socorro
I love how the demo is supposed to prove that the chalktopus gives a more even coating of chalk, yet it the video shows the opposite 🤣