Mixing With Mike Mixing Tip: Using VU Meters to Set Levels in a DAW
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Im addicted to Sonar! Tips like this are universal though, and I very much appreciate your tips and time! This essential info. Im learning sooo much, I feel like a sponge!
Fantastic tip! Thank you Mike! I just used this idea for a vocal and compared it with my original attempt with compression and simply wow! It sits so well in the mix, doesn't need any heavy compression, maybe just some compression for tonal character for my case. I found a piece of gold in this video. Many blessings.
+Bluebeep Love to hear stories like this...
Cheers!
Mike
This is a great tip. Something I'll use today on a project I'm struggling with. I bet it'll be worth starting over and doing this small thing to get everything else right. Thank you!!
+Michael D. Leavitt Cheers Michael!
This is incredibly useful, Mike. Thank you so much. May I ask: would you recommend doing this for spoken word content, such as in podcasts or voice overs? I'm trying to train my ears to hear automating levels in podcasts. For example, I think I hear it in Joe Rogan's show. There is a glue to the audio, so to speak, that sounds (to my untrained ears) more consistent than merely slapping an LA-2A down in post or a tape emulator during mastering. Thanks for your feedback, sir. Your content is A++.
I'm also a big fan of VUs, (shows my age).. Another variation on today's theme is to use the "clip gain" function afforded on the newer Pro-tools versions..Older versions, or different DAW users, can employ a "gain plugin" in off line mode. ("Audio Suite" in Pro- Tools)...Either way, this technique is very helpful to any down stream dynamic processors, as you have witnessed in this video.. Thanks Mr. White for another great tip..
+CarlosGunX Cheers Carlos!
You sir are a god, and I thank you!
Nicely done.
Hello. I installed the VU Meter on the track and I have a terrible overload, although there is no overload on the master track. Is there even a limiter installed? Could you explain what my problem is?
I've just started doing this technique on Vocals and bass. Gave me great results... Not the most enjoyable part of mixing but it works :)
+Alexis Roy Cheers!
Anyone know whether the VU meters in Scheps Omnichannel, J37, or MJUC works for this? Seems a little silly to me to buy a plugin for this purpose only if any of my analog emulations will do the job.
You nail it once again! Thank you :).
I love using clip gain in all of my tracks, but you just reminded me to be harder on myself with the details ;). My question is how long do you spend on 1 track's vocals doing clip gain? I get tracks with many vocal parts and it seems very tedious to do, yet oddly worth it in the end. I heard a huge difference in the before and after. Does the Protools HD 12 have sufficient VU/RMS meters built in? or is it worth it to get a separate one?
+Zack Dusedau Hi Zack,
Once you get into the flow of it, it actually goes pretty quickly. It can take 15-20 mins depending upon how radical the changes in gain are. You could set up the meters in Pro Tools to read VU but I guess for me it is easier to see the VU. I don't think they have one that is built into the system. I think there used to be a BombFactory Meter, but it must have gotten dumped with the transition to AAX.
The Meter on the Kramer Tape is excellent if you have that one. Set the meter to show output and turn off the Tape Processing. They did a nice job of emulating the ballistics of a VU. Seems like a simple thing but they are all slightly different and it takes a bit to get used to what it should look like at first. After the initial growing pains, it is so easy to work with.
Cheers!
Mike
+Michael White I never got the Kramer tape, but i do have the Studer and
Ampex tape machines from UAD :). I never liked the responsiveness of
the old bombfactory meter (and the one you showed here is really good).
I'll try pulling up a studer for the track to test it out on my next
mix. an extra 20 minutes will definitely be worth it :).
Be careful about the Studer as the calibration is -12 not -18. You may find that your levels when using other vintage processors after this process is 6dB too high.
Cheers!
Mike
Because this VU meter has a trim knob it uses much more computer resources than a flat out simple VU meter. So it you have 24 tracks for example this meter will cause problems as its much more resource hungry. Doesn't make sense if there are other simple meters are avaiable all you need is a VU meter that reads rms accuratly values not peak.
Sorry if this is a basic question, but how are able to adjust just the volume between the two breakpoints? When I try to drag up or down btw 2 points using the trim tool, it affects the entire volume of the clip. PT 12.8.3. Is there a modifier key combo I'm missing? Thanks
Anthony Stahl marquee tool
Do you have a link to the final mix? I enjoyed his singing!
The closest thing I have on my website is a series of Mixing with Mike classes (blog.music-production-guide.net/mixing-with-mike-episode-95/) where I mix the song. The artist is no longer active.
Michael White I joined (free membership) just so I could hear this song and how it was mixed. Not free. How do I cancel the membership so I won't get any emails? Sorry.
So the point of gain staging through a vu meter is to get it to hit at 0db on the VU meter? then mix balance with the faders?? Thank you and also whats the name of the song
The only problem with using a VU is that percussive sounds may peak over 0dBFS if you push them to 0. The safer way is to use a good dBFS meter that displays Peak and Average levels. Set the levels so that no peak is higher than -6 and no average level is above -18 - stop at the level standard that is exceeded first.
Would using waves vocal rider be the same as this?
Hey bro, check out my response above
Would Vocal Rider not have got you maybe 80% of the way there, then you would only have to take it over the line with 20% of this time consuming manual stuff..?
+kye903 Hey Kye,
I have never been able to get that to work with any level of satisfaction. VocalRider was designed to mimic the behavior of a mix engineer writing automation to a vocal. At that point in the mix, the vocal processing is already set outside of minor tweaks and the vocal rides are working off of the consistency I am showing in this video. Placing VR in before balancing the levels seems to create more issues in my experience.
If you are getting results though, go for it, maybe I am missing something...
Cheers!
Mike
I probably spoke too soon; having had a play with Vocal Rider today I'd have to agree with you, it's hard to get a satisfactory result out of it.
It's like the 'slow' setting is still far too fast, so it's jumping around trying catch every single syllable.
I find that RVox does a very good job of leveling things out and then I can just clip gain the occasional bit here and there, that's my method at the minute anyway.
I may have to shoot a new Vocal Rider Video. There is a great way to use it that is incredibly valuable. I like the RVox as well. Great for evening out BG vocals.
Cheers!
Mike
the title of this vid should be: Using VU Meter to help 'balance' lead vocal !!!
NOTHING HERE ABOUT VU FOR GAIN STAGING (LEVELS) OR SETTING VU METERS
wow;;so that explains why crappy singing can be made to sound better. So sad......
Bass is very important to calibrate with VU, where one really wants consistency, as well as the sub of the kick.
Most valuable lesson. I used to work the same on vocals or other prerecorded tracks with this exact plugin from Toni (Klanghelm). Cubase isn't as comfortable here but if used to it the workflow gets fast too. I think it's the most important pre step in mixing before any compressor and such is put onto the track. Volume after all is the most powerful thing in mixing. Also important imo is to take care of that this technique isn't overdone, so the vibe, energy and flow of the performance is still alive afterwards. Cheers
Would Waves vocal rider plug-in work the same way as manually adjusting vocal levels?
Too much work for the artist to do. This is why I left PT years ago for Logic. You can raise or lower part of a waveform and actually see it bigger or smaller. The visual advantage saves time and you can see each part looks mixed.
Wait - first thing I did with every track is I made sure the level was always between 20-15 in RMS mode in pro tools for gain staging .
No I’m confused cause I’ve watched several different videos of different people explaining how they use it and everybody’s using VU differently to my shock.
1st are you putting a V U meter on every track at bottom of plugin chain? Are you putting the VU meter on before any plug-ins and leveling your track this way as opposed to what I did using the built-in meter in ProTools RMS mode?
And then what about your master bus fader aren’t you putting a VU meter on this as well?
I was told by a legendary Mastering person that you don’t put any VU meters on the tracks you only put it on your master bus fader
so I’m all confused.
Is there a place where I can hear all the tracks you've worked on? I found "Lies" by Space Jones but I would like to hear more tracks like this one. Thanks for the great lessons too 🙏
no where in here do you talk about how to use VU meters in a mix
Excellent point! and worth another video.
Thanks!
Mike
Don't think so. Were you looking for something specific?
If it helps, I think what he's doing with the VU meter is making sure nothing goes past the 0. the 0 on the VU meter actually represents -18Db which with most plug-ins is what is called the "digital sweet spot." That digital sweet spot allows for better quality from your plug-ins among other useful things. You mixes come out sounding a lot better, and plus it looks cool to!
It's still funny, the actual title of the video lol.
I understand where he's coming from. I searched "how to gain stage with VU meter" and was expecting to see how he uses the VU meter across a whole mix. Bass, Guitars, Keys can be consistent signals and not too difficult but more transient things like Kick and Snare is where I have a hard time. You want to make it peak at 0 VU but many times it's already clipping well before 0 VU. So yes, I was hoping to see Mike go through other instruments, specifically drums. This vocal one was really good though. So yes, Mike! A video of you gain staging with VU meters on each individual channel as if you were on a console would be helpful as silly as it sounds. Including what you're calibrating your meters at for setting up a mix.
Does manual velocity automation yield better results than using plugins like Wave Vocal Rider or Bass Rider?
I monitor the incoming signal through a VU meter. This tutorial won't work well if the audio recorded signal are clipping
Fantastic video, Mike. You can really hear the work you've put into proper gain staging as soon as you work the Neve (V Comp) into it. Sounds really great. There will be so much less automation work to do at when that stage comes around. :)
+slamcrank Hey slamcrank,
Yes, the automation will be easier in the end. You can just focus on bringing out the expression of the performance.
Cheers!
Mike
Love the automation in PT.
Strange melodi. Also sounds very punched in :)
+Christian Angelo Nilsén I think that was me with the gain adjustments. Gotta be careful not to make adjustments at zero crossings or at least smooth the transitions.
Cheers!
Mike
Oh automation. I'd slap a compressor on that sob so fast. But Mike's professional listen to mike
seems like this video is about using gain plugins and audio file visuals to even out volume of a track. the vu meters didnt have much to do with it?
Dear Mike, this literally saved my life. I now FINALLY get that up-front vocal I've been dreaming about! THANK YOU! Even though it seems like an 'easy' trick, for some reason I never figured to do it like this. Thank you again!
Wondering can the same result be obtained using a Vocal Rider?
That does look more natural to ear holes. More than the little green bouncies
I normally only use the Klanghelm VU set to -10 on my master but this has given me an idea for an alternative to my usual method of balancing vocals. I generally use Vocal Rider to do the bulk of the automation then tweek to taste before copying the automation to the level of "Mixtool" (Studio One). That way I still have full control of the overall level with the fader. But I could instead copy the automation to the Klanghelm VU level instead of using Mixtool and have that VU representation. There's a thought ;)
Good idea!
This is a very advanced technique I see some people just grab a compressor and just squash the vocal.
so laziness is your friend if you wanna achieve trashy mix xD
Michael - I just discovered your channel and been watching quite a few videos. Excellent job! I love your presentation style and you get right to the point. I'm a fan!
Cheers! Welcome Aboard!
I use this technique to cut sibilant stuff down a bit, too…it doesn’t always save you from the deesser (especially when compression and 8k shelves start making the scene) but there are times when you simply don’t need one…my last project had a really, REALLY good singer and it just wasn’t necessary.
I've seen Russ get similar results using RX clip gain to keep things at -18dBFS
+Alex Solano Hi Alex,
I have never used that one, I will have to check it out.
Cheers!
mike
@@mixingwithmike not on the master I would not use -18db thats too low.
HELL YES!!! thank you. i just received a project that had this exact problem and you helped me a lot. thanks,kisses to you.
cc
Cheers Captcindy!
Hi this is very educative. But for this vocals are you trying to hit -3 on the VU meter? I thought one would try to hit 0 on the VU meter..... Do you have an example of doing this with drums, other instruments?
Good Video ! id like to download that accapela foe mixing practice !? any good website for free accapelas ?!!
Also Mike I was taught when gain staging the actual plugin to always make die the input and oily levels is even. But I see you doing the opposite you I setting your output input on the plug-in two different levels how come? Thanks
I'm into this at present Mike, still trying to get the workflow correct with VU's
Can you clarify - if a VU is calibrated for -18dbfs, that it means when the needle hits 0 it is hitting -18dbfs in the DAW, which as I understand it is the sweet spot for converters and plugins. Probably a dumb Q but I want to be confident that bit is correct.
Furthermore, when tracking should I also apply the same principle, i.e. aim to have my input signal hitting 0 on the VU.
Thanks and keep up the great work.
This vocalist sounds like my friend STONE WALTERS from the UK
Hey Doug,
You are correct!
If you see him, tell him I said hello!
Cheers!
Mike
what pro tools is that ? I cant Do that On Pro tools 10
whati is he aiming ? -3 ?
name of the song?
Nice how this is still relevant now, some quite a number of years later.
Manual waveform correction is far better than using a compressor to do the job.
Thank Dad for the ways you explain how to use the VU meter
Hi, this work does Waves Vocal Drive? What is the difference? Thank you.
Do you want the soundmen to commite a cuiside?what is the next step?
Hi Mike, what´s about simply using a tool like the Wave vocal rider, it is auto so maybe lifeless or humanless :-) but it works for the purpose
Thank you, it is really nice and basic tip for every mix. I should’ve checked your youtube channel more earlier.. ! ;)
I think waves have a good plug in for that ( WaverRider, is a good option for this ). Nice Video.
Why this guys speak so much to show nothing? Go straight
Hi Mike , I been doing audio engineering for a while and I have seen a lot , MY RESPECT TO YOU !! YOU ARE VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE GUY ,AND OVER ALL YOU HAVE A GREAT EAR! CHEERS, Keep up the good work! , Leo
+redlalo777 Cheers Leo!
Hi, how can I do this in Studio One? I have to cut the events just to be able to adjust the phrases' volume separately problem its gonna create unnatural volume drops and pops specially if the words are very near each other.. Is this in reality just a volume automation..? the waveforms in Studio One is not going up like whats happening here, same results though I think.. But this is much better because the waveform can serve as guide..
nersonangelo it will work in Studio One if you slice at "zero points". You can see these zero points if you do a Data Zoom in on the waveform. I do it all the time, and it really helps to prevent clicks and pops - and, of course - you get better split points for doing as Mike is demonstrating in the video. Finding those zero points is usually easy to do on mono files, but often trickier on stereo files, since zero points rarely align between right and left side in a stereo file. But, sometimes it works out well to just split a file near zero crossings, then overlap the two split tracks and do a crossfade ("x" is the shortcut) and adjust the clip levels as necessary. That usually works really well, and avoids all the tediousness of finding exact zero points. Best of luck!
And, on a side note: thanks very much for this video, Mike - you are always SO helpful, and we all appreciate it!
So were you actually automating the actual clip gain as opposed to the fader?
Singer needs to work on his rhythm. Throws off the vibe.
My only question would be that if you micro-manage a vox like this, don't you feel some dynamics and vibe will be lost?
+Peerson J. Thrane Hey Peerson,
This technique works well for most pop productions because the dynamic is largely squashed anyway. with this technique you have better control of it. Also consider that the expressiveness can be better tailored in the fader automation in the context of the full production. The real benefit is in the consistency of the processing in between.
Cheers!
Mike
Klanghelm is a decent VU with some customizable options. Best of all to resize the window.. Worth the £15 I paid.
Agreed!
Hi Mike so would it be a good idea to track better in the first place ? how about if a vocal is very dynamic got any compression tracking tips?
Always a great idea to track better in the first place. As a mix engineer, you get what your given and make the best of it.
Best approach to dynamic vocals is a very low threshold, low ratio (less than 2:1) compressor that has a consistent compression of 2-3 dB with a quick release and medium fast attack. It will act a great transparent averaging compression to balance the overall performance.
Cheers!
Mike
Can someone tell me how to do those clip gain adjustment in FL Studio?
That'd be a biig help. Thanks
Right click on the left corner of your audio clip, you'll see a menu. Got to automation in the menu, select volume. Or get the Waves thingy. You'll learn more the first way though...
Really helpful, thanks Mike!
This was super helpful! Awesome channel!
Performing in a live room with an audience and tracking in a box are two different experiences. The live room is more forgiving of the wide dynamic performance of the individual and the band as a whole. In the box those wide dynamics are easily noticeable and that's because the performance has been reduced to monitor speakers in a controlled room then to the listener via earbuds. Your technic is cleaver it requires a VU meter, clip gain adjustment and the compressor to narrow the dynamic so as to not make the performance sound so drastic in the confinement of the earbuds. But in listening to the clip gain changes you made I heard his emotional delivery being changed for the sake of evening the dynamic performance so it would fit to the in the box dynamic control(?). Compressors are also capable of revealing the intimacy of the inner nature of the emotion and sonic qualities of a sound. When Listing to the A and B comparison: A. Left the emotional content in tacked while leveling the dynamic for the in the box sound; B.(Clip gain adjustment) Seemed to weaken the emotional content while leveling the dynamic in favor of a more in the box sound. Granted I have listened to speaking habits and found it difficult to listen when they do not have a practice of speaking with in a consistent level. They are difficult to learn from. Musical performances need the same respect especially when moving from live to tracking in the box. Also both the VU and peak metering should be taught to show how each benefits the recording experience at every stage from tracking, mixing to mastering.
+Matthew Brown
Hi Mathew,
Thanks for the feedback.
Regarding the live space, your premise is true for a room mic but not for a close mic which will be very sensitive to dynamic changes. The bleed of the room sound would be relatively way too low to affect the dynamic of the performance. In my 30 years experience recording, it is more common for a live performer to exaggerate their dynamic than to lay back on it. Thus the opposite is almost always true unless you are dealing with pro session musician.
Regarding the emotional impact of the performance with the gain changes, when the track is fully processed and mixed with automation on the end, the expression will come across far more effectively. The reason is, it won't be purely level based dynamic and the inflections and nuances will come through more clearly due to the more consistent processing. This will be most notable in the sonic consistency at all listening volumes, speakers and environments in the finished mix. I have a years of experience mixing major label artists for radio release, works every time.
Regarding the Peak Metering in this case, it is not an effective tool for judging perceived volume and that is the reason it was not included.
Cheers!
Mike
Kind of an abstract question. When you are doing volume automation on vocals, is it normal to have all of the emphasized syllables, or what you consider should be the most emphasized syllables, to be the same relative volume?
Here's a weird example of what I mean. If I recorded a vocal line, and the emphasize was like this - "THIS is JUST a QUEStion", should all those emphasized syllables (represented as capitals) be relatively the same volume?
Depends on the song and style of music. For most pop music the answer is closer to yes. for more expressive vocal performances the answer is closer to no. So much depends on the song and whether the emphasis being the same helps drive the song or whether it sterilizes a performance that needs the dynamic changes for the meaning of the song to come out.
Sorry for the abstract answer :-)
Got it, thank you.
Hi Mike, thank you for you video. You change the volume with horizontal line only. Is it ok to do it in other ways, curves for example? I do it very often like that at it gives me good results, I suppose. What do you think? Cheers!
+Tom August Hi Tom,
I wish Pro Tools had better editing tools for clip gain. I would prefer to transition the gain more smoothly overall and often go back to write that in manually. That's why I carefully adjust at null points in the waveform.
Cheers!
Mike
Yes, you're absolutely right. If I need to do advanced editing in use WaveLab...
Hey Mike thank for an awesome video. Its very helpful. Just a question. Towards the end of the video (16:50) you say we can ride the faders again in the automation stage. Would you be able to give me a little clarity about that and kindly help me please ? Thanks again.
The idea is that the end fader rides will fit the levels within the mix which may get more dense with instruments as the song progresses. Setting the gain at the beginning can make the processing more consistent but may take away some changes in dynamic that need to be added back later to fit with the music.
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers!
Mike
Hey Mike, Thank you very much for taking time to reply. Thats very helpful. Just one more question please. Whats your opinion about Bombfactory Meter Bridge please ? Is it Useable, trustworthy and accurate ?
5 years later... great vids Mike
Isn't this one of those cases where you simply use compression? I think this is a really painful way to go about adjusting levels of a vocal... Just sayin'
You can use compression, but it will usually take at least 3 of them to get it to sound transparent.
thanks for the reply
Very Well presented with examples and explanations that demystify effectively!
Cheers!
Timeless info. Thank you!
How is it that your triming the Wave file ? is It Automating ?
Clip Gain! Pro Tools 10 has Clip Gain. Go to the View menu and scroll down to Clip and select Gain. A line will appear across the middle of the waveform. You can edit the same way you edit volume.
I tried the Vocal Rider, didn't last 30 seconds using it. I'm sure there's use for it. Cheers.
+JT Hi JT,
It is much better after all the processing and with a minimum range. I will shoot a new video to explain.
Cheers!
Mike
thanks for bringing out the plug in today.
Hi Mike,great vids.How about one on mixing synth bass and bass guitar?Having trouble trying to make both work in a mix.Cheers
+bugeyedmudafuka2 Mixing Synth and Bass guitar together in the same mix?
Hi mike,yes synth bass and bass guitar.Both playing the same notes.Hard to make both work without completely destroying one.Not a great arrangement choice to be honest.
I will see if I have a good audio example of this.
As you change the gain automations, I noticed the audio waves are updated visually! Is this only available through HD?
The reason the Waveform changes is that I am adjusting the gain of the Waveform Audio not the fader level. This processing is prior to Inserts where the fader automation is post insert.
Cheers!
Mike
I found that out after many curiosity later. I just knew about fader automation and never knew about gain control in such fashion and its visual advantage. Thank you for letting me learn something new! =D
Cheers!
I really enjoyed this video !!! Definitely learned a lot....thanks for this !!
+mkvemcee Cheers!
Lovely video, as usual :)
meaningless in 32bit floating system
meaningless for internal clipping only, not for setting up a reasonable gain structure in your mix or using any analog emulation plugin, most of which are calibrated to -18 or 0 VU.
Is there an efficient way to do this "Clip Gain" in Cubase 7.5?
+Adam Taylor I am not familiar enough with Cubase to say. Maybe someone else reading this can comment better.
Sorry!
Mike
OK, thanks for replying.
+Adam Taylor Hey I've mixed around on Cubase LE5, just to stay familiarized with it and I absolutely HATE gain staging with it. I mainly use Studio One, but ProTools clip gain feature is by far the best. In Cubase, the way I do it, is you have to split the sections you're adjusting and to adjust it's the little square dot at the top. Surely you've found it by now, but figured I'd say it anyways.
Thanks for your insight Jinjer 93
Do you make with clip gain or volume?
In this video, I am using clip gain because it will set the levels prior to plugin processing.
Cheers!
Mike
Hi Michael,
Thank you very much...quite clear
Cheers!
Thank you for this...
Cheers Noah!
Solid explanation! Thanks!
Cheers!
Great video - thanks Mike. Ive been doing something similar by putting a basic compressor on and then automating the vocal level based on the gain reduction so if its going crazy, ill automate the vocal down. Basically keeping the compressor happy. Is there any advantage to doing it this way instead? I started on digital so never mixed on analogue desks, is it more a comfort thing as you are more used to VUs? Thanks again Mike!
You can use a digital meter as long as it shows Peak and RMS level. The VU is similar to the RMS signal and the target for the RMS should be somewhere in the -14 range or so. Try to keep the peak levels at -6 max.
This should balance your levels well into vintage emulations.
Cheers!
Mike
this one of the things that you can see it happening in all of the pros sessions - take a look in the printscreens made in the SOS magazine of the inside the mix series and you'll find it in almost each and every session. Mike, thank you for putting your time in this! it really makes a difference when working with analog emulations like Acustica Acquas and Nebula
Useless..
Thanks for the constructive feedback
Excuse me .. I mean, the title of the video is a bit confusing. I thought you explain how to balance levels of the mix tracks .. Regarding his technique is very well explained, but anyone could replace it by a compressor.. Thanks.
Hi Jose,
Thank You! That is much more helpful info and I understand the confusion. I changed the title accordingly.
Cheers!