Michael Smith I'm sorry but defending the areas/lands around Riverrun falls under that. Robb should have just let him know what the plan was. Sometimes going after the threat head on (offense) is the best way to defend, Edmure wasn't given specifics by his" know it all" king.
Oberyn Martell ok be in Robb's shoes here... you are far from Riverrun you have a choice... risk it all by sending a raven to Edmure saying let Tywin come west? or tell him to hold Riverrun making it sound less suspicious.. and its not like he had the plan fully developed before he left...
Michael Smith What about Edmure's shoes? How is he to know "defend" meant something else? It's not like Edmure knew Robb well enough to know what he was thinking or what he could possibly be planning. I know people including myself like the Starks and see them as the "good guys" even though the series is about that, but people tend to make excuses for their blunders, escuses they would never make for others.
The genius of this scene is that, as much as it was Edmure's blunder, it was also Rob's failure. He knew how to win battles and wage war but he was too young to have any experience commanding his men. Edmure was loyal, brave and noble. If he knew the plan, he'd do his best to follow it, but Rob never shared it with him. He just assumed Edmure would do what he needed him to do. Now compare it to scenes with Tywin at Harrenhall where he yells at his bannermen, keeps them in check and makes sure to spell out exactly what each needs to do, even when he doesn't share his intrigues running underneath. Tywin had his share of useless mills in the past.
Tywin is an old experienced person, who was hand of the King. Robb was an inexperienced younger guy, who had to become the King in the North, just due to the circumstances. Robb was supposed to marry a Frey girl. He didn't. He was brave, but, not a good ruler.
@King Edrick Snowbeard Stark Your Argument can also easily be destroyed: As the lord of his area, he is expected to protect his people and infrastructure. An expectation placed on him by his subjects. He couldn't assume nor anticipate Robb's plan, nor could his people, so he makes the choice to do what people expect of him, to do what people pay their taxes to the lord for, and defend the area that is his. If he doesn't, his subjects lose respect for him. He is exactly right and he operates like many other commanders from history in the absence of strict and well planned orders, he seized an opportunity. History has shown that armies that withhold information and expect their commanders to follow exact orders when given to them and only when given to them fail. In flexible command structures with a degree of autonomy and promote teamwork and less rigid grand strategies, generals almost always succeed over rigid structures.
@@fluoroantimonictippedcruis1537 2:07 he said that he would have known about the plan if he had been patient on that very day. It stands to reason that any other of his generals would have been aware that engaging the enemy unauthorized is unwise and a break in the chain of command. Especially since he was scheduled to receive new orders that same day.
@Lord Cregan Stark I have mixed feelings about your point of him taking in refugees, that does show his humane side whereas Catelyn called them useless mouths. She is quite a stonehearted woman who just puts on a holy facade
@@zuuzuuka he sent a commander into an arena full of mitigating circumstances with a single objective without telling him the super objective of his mission. If he told Ed what his purpose was he's have stuck to the mission. It's the same problem with Holden from the last jedi. If your commanders don't know your goals they won't understand their mission and things can wrong.
@@sheadoherty7434 there I can't disagree. Taking tactical initiative is generally encouraged. A commander cannot expect his officers to understand the nuances of the grand strategy without being informed of it in a timely manner, nor can he expect them to excersise no independence on the shifting ground. I don't think you can divorce leadership and especially this aspect of it (anticipating reactions of his agents) from strategical thought though. So you've convinced me, but I'd go further and say his mind isn't even that strategic. He's not familiar with the functionality of his own army.
@@zuuzuuka you wouldn't be wrong. He's still young and doesn't trust his men with his plans. In a weird way he has the typical stark problem- he lacks empathy. The Starks are honourable but fail to anticipate how other people will feel and what they want. This gets Ned betrayed, Rob betrayed and Jon betrayed.
Edmure is one of my favorite characters. Such an average-Joe everyman surrounded by cool relatives and never getting any respect. Tobias plays him perfectly.
Well he was completely overshadowed by notable people when the war started. Though the Tullys and the Riverlands are nothing significant expect only being the middle of things and constantly targeted whenever theirs war. They are basically the middle child, always forgotten
"We seem to be running short of patience here." This isnt well known but he was actually referring to D&D's patience. The foreshadowing in this show is crazy good!
Lord Edmure Tully If you cared to examinate her more carefuly, you may have discovered that Black Walder was there first. Thanks for giving us Riverrun for us btw.
Lord Edmure Tully Lol calm down, you betrayed your uncle and gave him up to enemies. So far the score is Frey-Tully 2-0. After 2 years in the cell you start to look like reek No.2, maybe in the cells you finally found your level.
Apparently not, I did what was in the interests of my close family at the time. The Kingslayer threatened to catapult my child into Riverrun if I didn't lease the castle and cease the presence of Tully soldiers. Brynden betrayed my trust a long time ago, he got what was coming to him. I will have revenge on the Frey's - believe me.
If you where talking about the book you might have a point but in this scene he says very clearly that his orders where to let the Mountain come to him. Instead Edmure "took the fight to him."
In the book it is subtly made clear that Edmure did something very sensible given his position. He defended his lands from a marauding army at a crucial chokehold with the support of his vassals. What would you expect him to do. Keep in mind that Edmure is lord of the Riverlands at this point, at least de facto and half of it is being burned and butchered by the Lannister army. The other half is north of a river and Edmure, and the lords Blackwood and Bracken understandably wanted to keep that river between them. Unless Robb had been very explicit he had no reason to expect Edmure to let the hostile army cross into his territory. But Robb hadn't been explicit because he only knew luring Tywin into a trap was possible after he and Brynden had scouted out the Westerlands, when he no longer had contact with Edmure. Even then it's a suspicious plan. Tywin has waged war in that area before. He needn't have fallen for the trap. In addition Edmure has a genuine desire to protect 'his people' which includes Riverland peasants who would have greatly suffered had Tywin crossed that river. Catelyn thinks that is softheaded and softhearted and Robb and Brynden don't even consider the notion. Edmure gets the blame here but he did nothing wrong imo.
You would be right, if the plan was about tricking Tywin. But believe it or not, the mountain is not on permanent radio contact with Tywin. And moron Clegane would've fallen for the trap.
it isn't. he didn't follow orders*. edmures feelings towards letting an enemy his borders are literally irrelevant. he had CLEAR orders, and didn't follow them. "hold riverrun. let him bring the fight to u". that's clear as it could be. don't mistake doesn't sharing why to not telling clearly what. he doesn't have to share everything to his subordinates, and EVEN IF he have, he couldn't, because ravens can be interceptated
You know if this was a regular fantasy story, Edmure would've been seen as a brilliant war hero, especially in the books. In the books he holds off the entire Lannister Army, not the Mountain. In a normal story he would've been seen as the Heroic Nobleman who went against all odds to save his land and his people against an unstoppable force and won. However because this is Game of Thrones, his heroism costs his family everything. Had he simply let Tywin had his way with the Riverlands and did the hard thing, Stannis would've taken King's Landing he and Robb would've dealt a pincer strike on Tywin's surrounded army. It's only because this is Game of Thrones that we're slamming Edmure for his actions.
Mr33500 I agree. Robb told him directly to cover his flank. Edmure did exactly what he was told to do, Robb should've simply said, "if Tywin pursues me, let him."
@@Blitz-ww8kh Yeah I live under a rock with a hyper idealized version of my nation's pop culture too, so I've never heard of Peep Show, IT Crowd or Fawlty Towers either.
1:50 I give the actor for Robb props on his facial reaction to the number. He nearly mouths back the number in his shock. He's always ready to hear losses, but that number over an attack he didn't order just struck him.
Why didn't Robb tell Edmure the whole plan? Things would have been very different. Edmure is not to blame, I think. If I was him, I would have done the same. Edmure couldn't let the Mountain invade the Riverlands again, killing his people and devastating his lands.
+Jon Snow I know the plan, because I have read the books ;) But still I don't understand why Robb did not tell Edmure BEFORE he marches West. And I think when the plan worked and Tywin would be defeated and captured or killed, Robb would had resisted a longer while, but Stannis couldn't take King's Landing anyway. His army was crushed by the united forces of Tywin and the Tyrells, not by Tywin alone. Without Tywin, the Tyrells had defeated Stannis anyway (they outnumbered him 3 to 1) and dictated more conditions to Joffrey and Cersei. Neither Robb nor Stannis could hope to stand against an alliance between the 2 most powerful houses in Westeros - except they had joined each other. But only perhaps. That's just my opinion.
Robert John Smith Absolutly agree! Robb is to blame for not telling this very specific plan to one of his most important generals. Aftermath Edmure is mistaken, but who could know this before?
The problem is that Edmure should have been thinking the same thing Rob was instead of acting full hardy and with little thought or patience put into his plan of action.
Why should he think the same thing Robb was when Robb didn't tell him what he was thinking? Also, he gave all the other commanders significant flexibility too, so it's not like Edmure broke precedent.
For fuck sakes, Robb did give Edmure and order and told Edmure to hold his position and retreat if need be. In the real life military, you are given simple orders to obey and not detailed plans to follow. If somebody tells you to hold your position, you do it with out questioning the decision. You don't ask for details or ask why you are holding your position, you just do it. But it's funny how your taking the blame off of Edmure when he is giving the simple order of holding his position and he then goes on the offensive, which is the complete opposite, meaning he had disobeyed Robb's order.
This is one of the most underrated scenes in this series, that makes me sad. The slow ascension of music, the calm in his voice, Blackfish's expressions and the sudden yell. I miss Robb...like a lot, he had control and leadership for someone who was 16 years old.
Lord Edmure Tully The age difference is one 2 years for Jon and Robb from book to show. So at the start Robb is 17, rather than 15, so at his death that would make Robb 19 at the most.
If Robb was a Lannister, Tywin would have his perfect heir. Young, strong, tactically adept, and honorable. The Lannisters' power would have been secured for generations.
@@HolyknightVader999 Tyrion, a decent man? Joke of the year. Tyrion's a rapist in the books who sleeps with prostitutes and is an alcoholic (not saying the last bit is inherently bad or wrong - but Robb isnt that) while Jaime is easily manipulated and impulsive, so much so that he let his sister convince him that having sex with her is a good idea. Hes knowingly the father of her children and is perfectly fine lying about it for years. The rest of house lannister are inept military men and rely more on reputation and money than good character. Lancel... is Lancel who joins a fanatic cult. Arguably, away from Cersei, Jaime is good and honorable but the mistakes he made in the past are mistakes that a robb would never do. Robb legit broke his vow to his ally just so he could do the "honourable" thing and marry a woman he shouldn't have had sex with. Robb has his flaws and isnt perfect but the lannisters have done far worse.
Dude the writing was so good back then, in this one scene we got Robb showing strategic knowledge but poor/inexperienced delegation to his subordinates, we got Edmure showing his loyalty + bravery and short sightedness, we got the Blackfish showing experienced views and we got the stakes reinforced by mention of the sisters in Lannister hands and that the North doesn’t have enough men compared to their enemy. It’s just so well written nobody is portrayed to just be a moron who forgot something major they just didn’t know the full plan so took some initiative that inadvertently went against the wider goal. It’s so good, how we want from this to the later seasons I’ll never understand
This just made me realize the parallel between House Stark and the Sun clan of the three kingdoms period of china. Both had a virtuous, respected father who won glory in a rebellion. Both their fathers were executed due to schemes from ones he thought he could trust. Both their oldest son took over and became known as great young conquerors, and both died to arrows from an ambush.
@@evanwilliams8185 He was ambushed by Liu Biao who he had a reasonably long peace with and had a non aggression pact signed with. Hence why I say he was also betrayed.
Rob: "How many men did you lose?" Edmure: "208. But for every man we lost the Lannisters lost.." Rob: "WE NEED OUR MEN MORE THAN TYWIN NEEDS HIS" Edmure: "....it was 20, by the way" Rob: "I said we need our me...20??...actually thats not bad."
When you think about it, Gregor's brutality was probably his saving grace in this battle. Edmure, as the lord of Riverlands, couldn't afford to have his people get slaughtered by this mad dog and hence opted to shoo him away. Robb's mistake to not tell him the greater goal tho.
This show taught me a very valuable lesson when it comes to military tactics: you can win every battle you ever fight, but you can still lose a war if you're not careful
Moltke was very clear about military tactics in this regard. Particularly the need to explain the strategic vision to subordinates so they could act with initiative while still executing a unified strategic vision. Also the idea of concentrating forces at the critical point. Without this unified strategic vision, war breaks down to a battle of attrition, which is needlessly bloody, while also leaving little room to accomplish strategic goals. Generally, attrition tactics are used by a commander who has poor control over his army, or a force which would have been better off not starting a war.
Agreed. Isaw Rome, i just started with Outlander. He plays Frank and Jack Randell, superbly in a double role: Where Frank is the warm loving and understanding husband, 'Black Jack' Randell is a ruthless, cruel, and sadistic monster! same actor, and two éntire different roles. Very impressive tbf
+BenHopkins1000 reminds me of the ww1 battles where all the armchair general ordered men through miles of mud and uncut barbed wire while the officers who were ACTUALLY at the battlefield could see the impossible conditions but had to follow orders anyway. Edmure saw an opportunity, and Robb neglected to tell him the ultimate objective. Edmure thought he was making a decision using local, updated information.
+Gk Kk If Robb would've explained his fucking intentions he would've won , but he expected Edmure to sit idly while The Mountain was raiding his land ?
Robb had given clear instructions about what he wanted done. Edmure should've done it like he was asked, but his ego got in the way because he didn't like to get commands from his 16 year old nephew.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 You clearly never served in any army, or had command of any sort. Orders need to be clear and the reasons known to the people you issue the order. This would have been easily prevented if Robb explained him what his idea was. Edmure's reasoning was absolutely correct, given the informations he had at that time. You need to convey the bigger picture to your subordinates. Robb's argument is valid but it can easily be seen as something he thought of it afterwards and didn't bother to inform the commander in charge. Inform as much as possible your own men and they will add to your success.
@@Crallux I don't know what liberal army you have served, but in actual wars, the soldiers don't get to ask the questions. They are expected to follow the orders of their superiors, even if the orders are faulty or immoral. In real life example, look at the charge of the light brigade during the Crimean war. Here, if Robb had sat explaining his motives to every commander under him, he wouldn't have been able to capture Jaime, wouldn't have won all the battles he won, etc.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 Did you serve in an army? I served and humans are humans. You can give an order to someone and he will do it but won't understand why he was given the order and that can be dangerous. Soldiers are not brainless beings. They will act on their own doing what they feel is right to fullfill that order (depending on the situation, he will need to improvise). If the soldier doesn't know the big picture, he will act in a way, which is not favorable of what you intended. There isn't a clear checklist on how to react in some situation, but having knowledge of the bigger picture will help the soldier to act correctly.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 You do get that while very brave and all, the charge of te light brigade was beyond stupid. They all died to a man for nearly nothing. Besides that even if you ignore that Tully was defending his own lands, along with his own lords. His orders in the show apparently were "hold riverrun" an entirely valid way to do that is destroying the army headed for riverrun. As for the point of not being able to catch Jaime if he told all his lords his plans... he did tell them, he explicitly split up his army, told Roose Bolton to delay Tywin at the Green Fork and took his cavalry to relieve Riverrun
1:53. Robb's expression doesn't change until Edmure tries to justify his lost men. Only then does he raise his voice. He still regrets sending 2,000 men to die.
1:48 I love that despite this blunder, Robb was completely calm and reigning in his anger... riiiiiight up until he heard how many people died for that blunder, and loses his temper for just a moment. Long enough to emphasize just how critical and important it is to him that he keep as many of his own soldiers alive, probably not just for strategic value, but to ensure he can send as many of his loyal soldiers home to their families once the war's over. He wasn't just mad about losing numbers, he was mad for losing *people*. And notice after his outburst and seeing Edmure's reaction, he pulls himself back again. That's great portrayal.
@@thamayor6324That's just D&D being lazy again. In the Books the second was never wiped out and remained as a second Army till the red wedding. D&D just decided to kill them to avoid having to follow two Armies
"If soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their Commander" - Tywin Lannister Robb was too secretive about Edmure's TRUE orders, he simply told him this n that... yet as Edmure was Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Robb should have let him in wáy more on his true plans. Also because Edmure was his uncle. HE should have entrusted Edmure fár more! So this 'blunder' was wáy more on Robb then Edmure actually.
If I were Edmure, I'd respond with: "I failed you... I will make sure to only do exactly as you order in the future, nothing more. Until the day you start trusting me as one of your commanders and choose to share your plans with me"
I would have responded: "You just said that the Mountain is a Mad Dog with no Strategic thought in his head. He isnt worth more than any other Commander. So why do you want to capture him? Why should i let him pillage one more of my villages? Simply so you can have the glory of slaying him?" To me Edmure did nothing wrong and Robb is just an idiot.
Despite Edmure's strategic big mistake, there's something I find quite positive about him defeating Gregor and Tywin's army: if Lord Clegane was personally leading Lannister soldiers, with all likelihood some of those soldiers had to be his own, and they were the ones who helped him torture innocent people to death at Harrenhal! So, by slaying a few dozens of those rascals Edmure did bring justice to some of his brutalized people! Therefore thanks for this, Edmure Tully 😊! And don't worry, next time you lead soldiers into battle I'm sure you'll do better👍!
Robb failed miserably. Keep in mind in the books he’s a 15 year old boy and Edmure has been in a position of command. Edmure as lord of the Riverlands has every right to defend his lands. Plus if Robb is setting this elaborate trap he should be letting the 2nd most important piece to his kingdom (Edmure) know the plan. Not doing so frankly is a grave insult…couple that with screwing over the Freys and killing Karstark and it only shows he wasn’t cut out to be king
That is absurd, and not remotely how the chain of command works. He gave a direct order, to his subordinate, during a war. His subordinate disobeyed said direct order. He is not at fault for mot carefully explaining the reasons behind his order, it's an army, not a fucking sharing-circle.
@@bencatzilla yes but when you’re dealing with various fiefdoms, the politics is a bit shakier…kill Karstark, ignore Bolton and betray the freys then you lose half of your army…if Edmure was a direct subordinate like the umbers then he should expect his orders to be followed without question. But he was more of an ally…who declared for Robb because it was his only option…
I wonder why they changed it from Tywin and his whole army pursuing Robb to just the Mountain. It lessens the damage Edmure had on Robb's plans. If it wasn't for that, Stannis would've sacked King's Landing, killed the Lannisters in there and Tywin would either die fighting or sue for peace.
Edmure the true champion Dope wife, survived till the very end, gave the cringiest proposal for becoming king and got sat back down, got back to life. Absolute madlad
Robb's face when edmure says he lost 208 men is my face when I'm downloading a new xbox one game, it gets to like 70% done, the installation automatically stops, I restart the download and it stops at the same percentage again 😂😂😂😂😂
and the Lannister boys taken at the mill were then killed by Karstark(?) which led to Rob losing half his forces, and we know the rest. Funny how one thing leads to another, eh?
At least Edmure survived, House Tully is so overlooked making it one of my favorite houses. They always played an important role. Also aren’t Willem and Martyn Tywin’s nephews? Not his fathers brothers great grandsons
He should make a good Warden of the North in the Six Kingdoms as I suppose he would want to make good relations with his surviving nephew. That and try and lean on the remnants of House Frey to lessen their tolls, now that he is the most prominent relative by marriage they have.
Edmure wasn't a mere subordinate of Robb like Bolton or Karstark, he was an ally, the lord of 1 of the 7 kingdoms and his uncle. If there is one person Robb should have shared his plans with, it's Edmure. It was a big mistake from him.
This is why plans are explained If only one person knows of a plan, what are the others supposed to do? Play Apples to Apples? Unfortunately he is likely to be remembered as the White Trout
To be fair, it's Robb's fault rly, a leader has a duty to his commanders, one of those is to inform them of the bigger picture. Just tell him your 'genius plans' in advance and he will play his role perfectly.
As a commander, When giving orders to your subordinates you need to give both the Mission and the Intent. Situations inevitably change and subordinate commanders need an overarching intent so that they can understand whether their decision making process lies within that intent. This is especially important when Comms are difficult or in the case of a medieval society impossible without a messenger which takes time. This was Rob's fault as he gave a Mission to hold his position, without giving an Intent. His Uncle took the initiative within his assessment of the situation and decided that he was able to hold his position while conducting offensive action, seizing an opportunity. Compare this to when Tywin briefs his own men, he always lays out what he wants them to achieve and then the wider context in which their part lies within the plan. Essentially I want you to do 'X' as we are trying to achieve 'Y'. All Rob has achieved in this scene is to create a commander who is more likely to hesitate during key decisions because it's not exactly in line with what Rob has Told him to do.
In the books it's worse. The goal wasn't to hunt down the Mountain, but to lead the Lannister host back into the west and therefore unable to effect STannis' assault on kings landing. Now Robb's single huge problem was that Edmure technically acted correctly. He protected his domain from the Lannister forces and especially the Mountain who had been wrecking havoc. Robb should have just told Edmure, "put up token resistance then fall back" But Robb didn't do this. Robb's problem was always pride. Catelyn gave him that. Robb and Jon lvoe each other, but Robb did alienate Jon at several points. Robb let his hostage, Theon go back to the iron islands. Robb all too happily accepted being King in the North. Robb decided Jeyne's honour was worth so much mroe than 3,000 Frey troops and his bridge back to the North. Robb's downfall was pride. The irony being, as evil as Walder Frey was, in the days before Robb died, Walder made sure to insult Robb and Cat's pride as much as he could.
honestly, Edmure saved Robb's behind. Robb was bedridden at the crag shortly after the battle on the red fork. and even if he wasn't his supposed plan was foolhardy at best. Disposition of forces- Robb had at most 5,000 Cavalry, no reinforcements. Tywin had 15,000 infantry, 5,000 cavalry as well as the 4,000+ man garrison at the golden tooth and the remnants of Stafford's host being reformed at Lannisport the claimed plan was to run around avoiding battle until they could draw Tywin into a spot they found which would be good for an ambush, and capture him. the problems with that are manifold. 1. they may be strictly cavalry, but they need to forage or storm castles for food, which would slow them. Tywin doesn't 2. Tywin has an equal sized cavalry detachment and has explicitly taken measures to ensure Bryden's patented "kill the outriders" doesn't work. 3. Tywin has no qualms about burning to deny Robb forage 4. Tywin *Never* leads from the front. he would never be captured in any supposed ambush as Jamie was unless it took his entire army. 5. Tywin is far more cautious and calculating than Jamie, he underestimated Robb once and it cost him his heir. he won't do it again 6. No matter how good a position Robb thinks he has, his men aren't local. anything he finds, the local westermen loyal to Tywin will almost certainly be aware of. Tywin has better knowledge of the terrain. 7. Tywin's bannermen will be providing raven intelligence on Robb's movements where Robb has nothing more than outriders to work off of. I say claimed because it is likely an outright lie in order to browbeat Edmure into fixing RObb's mistake by marrying a Frey. Robb's plan could not have been concieved when he left for the west, and anything similar to such a plan fell apart before it started. What i think Robb's really planned to do was join forces with the ironborn he was expecting Theon to bring to take Lannisport and the Rock. Then with his much strengthened force he would either move east to confront Tywin or wait in ambush for him to return west (bad communication with Edmure, plan fails). and as for king's landing, even had Tywin been allowed to cross Stannis would still have failed. the Tyrells were already in position to stop him, they merely waited for Tywin. had he been 7 days gone into the west they and their 50-60,000 would have left without his 20,000 and smashed Stannis's 20,000 Nothing Edmure did hurt Robb, and in reality delayed the death he sowed with his own mistakes in trusting the Ironborn, giving command to Roose, and breaking his betrothal.
In the books Willem and Martyn were the sons of Tywin's brother Kevan, and Martyn wasn't captured instead it was Tion Frey, the son of Tywin' sister. They likely used Martyn instead of Tion due to the Frey's still being allied to the Starks, though I think it would have been better to use Tion since it did show that not all of the Frey's were in agreemeant.
Davis609 His only military mistake was not wiping out the Freys the second they tried to bargain with him for passage across the Twins. They owed fealty so they owed the crossing.
Cam Bryant there were more mistakes like not marring the Frey girl that would of have Robb a bigger army and then killing Karstark was another stupid move and trusting too much in Roose Botlon
Cam Bryant His mistakes? Marrying Jeyne Westerling instead of Roslin Frey. Chopping Mr. Karstarks head of. Not telling Mr. Tully his plans. Letting the KINGSLAYER, KINGSLAYER! Escape! (who the hell lets only two people guard your most important prisoner?) Not legitimizing Mr. Snow earlier. Attending the wedding of Mr. Tully and Lady Roslin Frey.
that's not really how these wars work, you need to trust your commanders and do what they say what if for some reason the mountain captured edmure or some other commander? then he would learn precisely what Robb's plans are, that's why orders come from headquarters and the men on the ground follow them because they likely do not have all the information to make the best movements edmure had good intentions with a clear goal, but as robb explained, his actions were impatient and insubordinate
@@bdeamon1 only Robb's real instructions to the Riverlords was to guard his rear, which meant they're to protect Robb from behind...so their formed conclusion, Robb was going to take Casterly Rock or Lannisport...not to lure Tywin...
Robb getting angry at his commanders for crushing the enemy in the most obvious way possible instead of reading Robbs mind and luring the mountain out. Makes sense why he would be so pissed edmure disobeyed him despite the fact robb never told him what he wanted him to do lmao
SMH Rob doesn't appreciate Edmure. That Mill gives a 5% bonus to food production and a 15% bonus to populace happiness. Silly Rob.
lol
He would have had that and the death of Tywin if the guy would have waited.
🤣🤣🤣
oh be quiet with this shaking my head nonsense.
Did you listen at all to a word Rob said? Wow you got me shaking my head lol.
“If instructions were clear, then the fault lies with the lieutenant. If instructions were unclear, then the fault lies with the commander” Sun Tzu
Sun tzu is an overrated glorystealing fool. No need to quote his nonsense.
@@AdamJensen_ Nice try.
@@PR--un4ub Truth hurts I suppose.
@@AdamJensen_ That must explain why I don't feel you in the slightest.
@@AdamJensen_ Ah yes, the man who literally wrote the book on warfare, vs some rando on youtube. Clearly you are the correct one.
Robb may be dead, the Boltons have Winterfell, Catelyn is dead, most of the Starks are dead, but they still got a nice mill!
+Michael Smith Well. Edmure was ordered by Robb to defend the Mill, what else was he suppose to do?
Oberyn Martell no, no, no, nonnononoono! his orders where to HOLD Riverrun..... not defend the riverlands....
Michael Smith I'm sorry but defending the areas/lands around Riverrun falls under that. Robb should have just let him know what the plan was.
Sometimes going after the threat head on (offense) is the best way to defend, Edmure wasn't given specifics by his" know it all" king.
Oberyn Martell ok be in Robb's shoes here... you are far from Riverrun you have a choice... risk it all by sending a raven to Edmure saying let Tywin come west? or tell him to hold Riverrun making it sound less suspicious.. and its not like he had the plan fully developed before he left...
Michael Smith What about Edmure's shoes? How is he to know "defend" meant something else? It's not like Edmure knew Robb well enough to know what he was thinking or what he could possibly be planning.
I know people including myself like the Starks and see them as the "good guys" even though the series is about that, but people tend to make excuses for their blunders, escuses they would never make for others.
The genius of this scene is that, as much as it was Edmure's blunder, it was also Rob's failure. He knew how to win battles and wage war but he was too young to have any experience commanding his men.
Edmure was loyal, brave and noble. If he knew the plan, he'd do his best to follow it, but Rob never shared it with him. He just assumed Edmure would do what he needed him to do.
Now compare it to scenes with Tywin at Harrenhall where he yells at his bannermen, keeps them in check and makes sure to spell out exactly what each needs to do, even when he doesn't share his intrigues running underneath. Tywin had his share of useless mills in the past.
Tywin is an old experienced person, who was hand of the King. Robb was an inexperienced younger guy, who had to become the King in the North, just due to the circumstances. Robb was supposed to marry a Frey girl. He didn't. He was brave, but, not a good ruler.
@King Edrick Snowbeard Stark
Your Argument can also easily be destroyed:
As the lord of his area, he is expected to protect his people and infrastructure. An expectation placed on him by his subjects. He couldn't assume nor anticipate Robb's plan, nor could his people, so he makes the choice to do what people expect of him, to do what people pay their taxes to the lord for, and defend the area that is his. If he doesn't, his subjects lose respect for him.
He is exactly right and he operates like many other commanders from history in the absence of strict and well planned orders, he seized an opportunity. History has shown that armies that withhold information and expect their commanders to follow exact orders when given to them and only when given to them fail. In flexible command structures with a degree of autonomy and promote teamwork and less rigid grand strategies, generals almost always succeed over rigid structures.
@@fluoroantimonictippedcruis1537 2:07 he said that he would have known about the plan if he had been patient on that very day. It stands to reason that any other of his generals would have been aware that engaging the enemy unauthorized is unwise and a break in the chain of command. Especially since he was scheduled to receive new orders that same day.
He commanded him to hold riverrun and nothing more. He expected edmure to do as commanded. That simple
@Lord Cregan Stark I have mixed feelings about your point of him taking in refugees, that does show his humane side whereas Catelyn called them useless mouths. She is quite a stonehearted woman who just puts on a holy facade
I like this scene as it both portrays Robb' s strategic mind while also showcasing his poor leadership.
How does it portray poor leadership?
@@zuuzuuka he sent a commander into an arena full of mitigating circumstances with a single objective without telling him the super objective of his mission.
If he told Ed what his purpose was he's have stuck to the mission.
It's the same problem with Holden from the last jedi.
If your commanders don't know your goals they won't understand their mission and things can wrong.
@@sheadoherty7434 there I can't disagree. Taking tactical initiative is generally encouraged. A commander cannot expect his officers to understand the nuances of the grand strategy without being informed of it in a timely manner, nor can he expect them to excersise no independence on the shifting ground. I don't think you can divorce leadership and especially this aspect of it (anticipating reactions of his agents) from strategical thought though. So you've convinced me, but I'd go further and say his mind isn't even that strategic. He's not familiar with the functionality of his own army.
@@zuuzuuka you wouldn't be wrong. He's still young and doesn't trust his men with his plans.
In a weird way he has the typical stark problem- he lacks empathy.
The Starks are honourable but fail to anticipate how other people will feel and what they want. This gets Ned betrayed, Rob betrayed and Jon betrayed.
@@sheadoherty7434 makes good sense this. Goddamit f D&D for ruining what could have been a masterpiece for the ages.
Edmure is one of my favorite characters. Such an average-Joe everyman surrounded by cool relatives and never getting any respect. Tobias plays him perfectly.
He lost the entire war for Robb.
nah he didn't. The war was already lost
Thankyou.
Well he was completely overshadowed by notable people when the war started. Though the Tullys and the Riverlands are nothing significant expect only being the middle of things and constantly targeted whenever theirs war.
They are basically the middle child, always forgotten
@@jamesturner4721 Robb lost the war because he didn't let the general of his most powerful army division in on his plans.
ROBB IS DEAD, BUT NOT ROOB. HAIL ROOB, KING OF THE NOOTH.
*chants wildly* THE KING IN THE NOOTH!!
+Andrew Wang THE KING IN THE NOOTH! THE KING IN THE NOOTH!
Roob Staak, the King in the Nooth.
+Andrew Wang I DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON, BUT IT LOOKS IMPORTANT
shenade teves THE KING IN THE NOOTH IS HAPPENING!
"We seem to be running short of patience here."
This isnt well known but he was actually referring to D&D's patience. The foreshadowing in this show is crazy good!
Every random line becomes foreshadowing ok
@@automotives902 That's the joke....
@@automotives902 That joke was going mach 10 over your head
@@thefisherman0074 so tell me the joke
🤦🏼♂️
Edmure: It's a NICE mill.
RUdigitized From this day until the end of time you will be Lord Edmure Mill
+Badjoke Maker Lord EdMill
Edmure Tully Lord of the Mill and Warden Of the Mill
your right, its a really nice mill
I had to protect my people
Robb may be dead, but ROOB WILL HAVE REVENGE!
where is this from ?
+Cian Reeves O'shea oh..Thanks. Hahahahahhahahha
Who the fuck is Roob
Queen of Thorns The King in the Nooth is what he is.
Lmfao I just noticed the title haha
Robb and Brynden are dead. Yet do you know what still stands? The Mill.
Lord Edmure Tully Im so proud of you, Im glad that I have have such competent liege lord.
Lord Edmure Tully If you cared to examinate her more carefuly, you may have discovered that Black Walder was there first. Thanks for giving us Riverrun for us btw.
Haha WTF!? You won't have riverrun for much longer you ugly piece of shit.
Lord Edmure Tully Lol calm down, you betrayed your uncle and gave him up to enemies. So far the score is Frey-Tully 2-0. After 2 years in the cell you start to look like reek No.2, maybe in the cells you finally found your level.
Apparently not, I did what was in the interests of my close family at the time. The Kingslayer threatened to catapult my child into Riverrun if I didn't lease the castle and cease the presence of Tully soldiers. Brynden betrayed my trust a long time ago, he got what was coming to him. I will have revenge on the Frey's - believe me.
Edmure was severely scolded, but Robb made far worse mistakes.
Also if orders are not clear the fault lies with the commander.
Yep, the order here was clear though?
Surely there were more effective ways to have him killed that were less detrimental to the war effort???
If you where talking about the book you might have a point but in this scene he says very clearly that his orders where to let the Mountain come to him. Instead Edmure "took the fight to him."
Roob*
In the book it is subtly made clear that Edmure did something very sensible given his position. He defended his lands from a marauding army at a crucial chokehold with the support of his vassals. What would you expect him to do. Keep in mind that Edmure is lord of the Riverlands at this point, at least de facto and half of it is being burned and butchered by the Lannister army. The other half is north of a river and Edmure, and the lords Blackwood and Bracken understandably wanted to keep that river between them. Unless Robb had been very explicit he had no reason to expect Edmure to let the hostile army cross into his territory. But Robb hadn't been explicit because he only knew luring Tywin into a trap was possible after he and Brynden had scouted out the Westerlands, when he no longer had contact with Edmure. Even then it's a suspicious plan. Tywin has waged war in that area before. He needn't have fallen for the trap. In addition Edmure has a genuine desire to protect 'his people' which includes Riverland peasants who would have greatly suffered had Tywin crossed that river. Catelyn thinks that is softheaded and softhearted and Robb and Brynden don't even consider the notion. Edmure gets the blame here but he did nothing wrong imo.
Completely agree. The orders were hold Riverrun and Guard my rear. Which sounds like don’t let Tywin’s army come marching after me in the Westerlands.
not Lord, his father was still alive at the time, as Catelyn reminds us.
@@ambience273 he was the acting lord, his father had already lost his wits and was dying.
You would be right, if the plan was about tricking Tywin.
But believe it or not, the mountain is not on permanent radio contact with Tywin. And moron Clegane would've fallen for the trap.
it isn't. he didn't follow orders*. edmures feelings towards letting an enemy his borders are literally irrelevant. he had CLEAR orders, and didn't follow them. "hold riverrun. let him bring the fight to u". that's clear as it could be. don't mistake doesn't sharing why to not telling clearly what. he doesn't have to share everything to his subordinates, and EVEN IF he have, he couldn't, because ravens can be interceptated
You know if this was a regular fantasy story, Edmure would've been seen as a brilliant war hero, especially in the books. In the books he holds off the entire Lannister Army, not the Mountain. In a normal story he would've been seen as the Heroic Nobleman who went against all odds to save his land and his people against an unstoppable force and won.
However because this is Game of Thrones, his heroism costs his family everything. Had he simply let Tywin had his way with the Riverlands and did the hard thing, Stannis would've taken King's Landing he and Robb would've dealt a pincer strike on Tywin's surrounded army.
It's only because this is Game of Thrones that we're slamming Edmure for his actions.
+Ian Ferguson We're slamming them because while he won the battle he lost the war, it's as simple as that.
Yeah, I literally just said that.
+Ian Ferguson Robb should have let him know of his plan then, as soon as possible. It's Robb's fault not Edmure's.
+Mr33500 He didn't need to know of his plan. He needed to follow fucking orders.
Mr33500 I agree. Robb told him directly to cover his flank. Edmure did exactly what he was told to do, Robb should've simply said, "if Tywin pursues me, let him."
"We seem to be running short of patience here"
"Know who isn't? Tywin Lannister"
*British sitcom fake laugh*
british shows don't use laughter tracks nor do we have "sitcoms"
@@Blitz-ww8kh Except IT Crowd...
@@TheSchemer1 never heard of it
@@Blitz-ww8kh Red Dwarf?
@@Blitz-ww8kh Yeah I live under a rock with a hyper idealized version of my nation's pop culture too, so I've never heard of Peep Show, IT Crowd or Fawlty Towers either.
1:50
I give the actor for Robb props on his facial reaction to the number. He nearly mouths back the number in his shock. He's always ready to hear losses, but that number over an attack he didn't order just struck him.
Why didn't Robb tell Edmure the whole plan? Things would have been very different. Edmure is not to blame, I think. If I was him, I would have done the same. Edmure couldn't let the Mountain invade the Riverlands again, killing his people and devastating his lands.
+Jon Snow I know the plan, because I have read the books ;) But still I don't understand why Robb did not tell Edmure BEFORE he marches West.
And I think when the plan worked and Tywin would be defeated and captured or killed, Robb would had resisted a longer while, but Stannis couldn't take King's Landing anyway. His army was crushed by the united forces of Tywin and the Tyrells, not by Tywin alone. Without Tywin, the Tyrells had defeated Stannis anyway (they outnumbered him 3 to 1) and dictated more conditions to Joffrey and Cersei.
Neither Robb nor Stannis could hope to stand against an alliance between the 2 most powerful houses in Westeros - except they had joined each other. But only perhaps. That's just my opinion.
Robert John Smith
Absolutly agree! Robb is to blame for not telling this very specific plan to one of his most important generals. Aftermath Edmure is mistaken, but who could know this before?
The problem is that Edmure should have been thinking the same thing Rob was instead of acting full hardy and with little thought or patience put into his plan of action.
Why should he think the same thing Robb was when Robb didn't tell him what he was thinking? Also, he gave all the other commanders significant flexibility too, so it's not like Edmure broke precedent.
For fuck sakes, Robb did give Edmure and order and told Edmure to hold his position and retreat if need be. In the real life military, you are given simple orders to obey and not detailed plans to follow. If somebody tells you to hold your position, you do it with out questioning the decision. You don't ask for details or ask why you are holding your position, you just do it. But it's funny how your taking the blame off of Edmure when he is giving the simple order of holding his position and he then goes on the offensive, which is the complete opposite, meaning he had disobeyed Robb's order.
Why does everyone hate on Edmure? He's a good guy.
Btw, Blackfish is hilarious, glad we'll see him again in season 6!
and Edmure
I know, I'm really looking forward to seeing them both again!
Hope they aren't immediately killed off.
House Blackfish FTW ! #FuckFreys
He betrayed his family. And is an unskilled warrior unworthy of the Riverrun throne.
This is one of the most underrated scenes in this series, that makes me sad. The slow ascension of music, the calm in his voice, Blackfish's expressions and the sudden yell. I miss Robb...like a lot, he had control and leadership for someone who was 16 years old.
He wasn't 16 in the show - definitely not! More like 20-25 years old.
Lord Edmure Tully The age difference is one 2 years for Jon and Robb from book to show. So at the start Robb is 17, rather than 15, so at his death that would make Robb 19 at the most.
Robb is the worst king ever.
Absolutely. People are too harsh on him
Yup. This scene always stood out to me
It's a damn shame Robb and Tywin never met.
I agree with Tyrion, Tywin would have liked Robb
If Robb was a Lannister, Tywin would have his perfect heir.
Young, strong, tactically adept, and honorable. The Lannisters' power would have been secured for generations.
@@HolyknightVader999 true point. But a Robb would never be born into a family like the Lannisters.
@@jessicalyons6577 Tywin and Cersei were the only screws loose. The rest of House Lannister were just decent men.
@@HolyknightVader999 yeah but Robb lacks Tywin's ruthlessness.
@@HolyknightVader999 Tyrion, a decent man? Joke of the year.
Tyrion's a rapist in the books who sleeps with prostitutes and is an alcoholic (not saying the last bit is inherently bad or wrong - but Robb isnt that) while Jaime is easily manipulated and impulsive, so much so that he let his sister convince him that having sex with her is a good idea. Hes knowingly the father of her children and is perfectly fine lying about it for years. The rest of house lannister are inept military men and rely more on reputation and money than good character. Lancel... is Lancel who joins a fanatic cult.
Arguably, away from Cersei, Jaime is good and honorable but the mistakes he made in the past are mistakes that a robb would never do. Robb legit broke his vow to his ally just so he could do the "honourable" thing and marry a woman he shouldn't have had sex with. Robb has his flaws and isnt perfect but the lannisters have done far worse.
Dude the writing was so good back then, in this one scene we got Robb showing strategic knowledge but poor/inexperienced delegation to his subordinates, we got Edmure showing his loyalty + bravery and short sightedness, we got the Blackfish showing experienced views and we got the stakes reinforced by mention of the sisters in Lannister hands and that the North doesn’t have enough men compared to their enemy. It’s just so well written nobody is portrayed to just be a moron who forgot something major they just didn’t know the full plan so took some initiative that inadvertently went against the wider goal. It’s so good, how we want from this to the later seasons I’ll never understand
This just made me realize the parallel between House Stark and the Sun clan of the three kingdoms period of china. Both had a virtuous, respected father who won glory in a rebellion. Both their fathers were executed due to schemes from ones he thought he could trust. Both their oldest son took over and became known as great young conquerors, and both died to arrows from an ambush.
It's so cool how real history is way more fascinating than the most imaginative works of fiction.
Sun Jian was ambushed due to his family holding the Emperor's Seal. I see where you are coming from. Three Kingdoms is one of my favorites.
@@evanwilliams8185 He was ambushed by Liu Biao who he had a reasonably long peace with and had a non aggression pact signed with. Hence why I say he was also betrayed.
@@JohnDoe-sx5ut Right, good call, I did forget the initial betrayal there. RotTK is a great book.
Rob: "How many men did you lose?"
Edmure: "208. But for every man we lost the Lannisters lost.."
Rob: "WE NEED OUR MEN MORE THAN TYWIN NEEDS HIS"
Edmure: "....it was 20, by the way"
Rob: "I said we need our me...20??...actually thats not bad."
That’s about 4160 men lost for Tywin. Thing is since he got allied with the Tyrells he’s got more then a ever.
When you think about it, Gregor's brutality was probably his saving grace in this battle. Edmure, as the lord of Riverlands, couldn't afford to have his people get slaughtered by this mad dog and hence opted to shoo him away. Robb's mistake to not tell him the greater goal tho.
This show taught me a very valuable lesson when it comes to military tactics: you can win every battle you ever fight, but you can still lose a war if you're not careful
so league of legends?
Moltke was very clear about military tactics in this regard. Particularly the need to explain the strategic vision to subordinates so they could act with initiative while still executing a unified strategic vision. Also the idea of concentrating forces at the critical point. Without this unified strategic vision, war breaks down to a battle of attrition, which is needlessly bloody, while also leaving little room to accomplish strategic goals. Generally, attrition tactics are used by a commander who has poor control over his army, or a force which would have been better off not starting a war.
Robb lost to diplomacy not tactics.
Shame they cut down the scene. There where actually lords in the room at first and Robb had to praise Edmure for his victory in front of them.
Tobias Menzies is underrated as an actor.
He did a great job playing Brutus in "Rome" and an even better job as Black Jack Randall in "Outlander"
Agreed. Isaw Rome, i just started with Outlander. He plays Frank and Jack Randell, superbly in a double role: Where Frank is the warm loving and understanding husband, 'Black Jack' Randell is a ruthless, cruel, and sadistic monster!
same actor, and two éntire different roles. Very impressive tbf
He also kills it as James Fitzjames in The Terror.
So Edmure was ultimately responsible for Oberyn's death. Give the man a beer.
+chasm671 And if Edmure had listened to his superior officer like a good little fish, he'd have done the Red Viper a huge favor...
+BenHopkins1000 Edmure tully, offically the worst tully next to cat and lysa
+BenHopkins1000 reminds me of the ww1 battles where all the armchair general ordered men through miles of mud and uncut barbed wire while the officers who were ACTUALLY at the battlefield could see the impossible conditions but had to follow orders anyway. Edmure saw an opportunity, and Robb neglected to tell him the ultimate objective. Edmure thought he was making a decision using local, updated information.
+Gk Kk If Robb would've explained his fucking intentions he would've won , but he expected Edmure to sit idly while The Mountain was raiding his land ?
TheSkipRow Gaming I see your point I still think hes the worst though
Good ol’ Roob Stark
I love how Robb is framed when he says "You know who isn't? Tywin Lannister" as if he's situated in front of chess pieces looking at his opponent.
Richard Madden played Robb so well. He is a fantastic actor.
Maybe you should have told one of your key generals your plan Robb?
This actually isnt Edmure's fault. This plan by Rob is something his commanders should have known beforehand
Robb had given clear instructions about what he wanted done. Edmure should've done it like he was asked, but his ego got in the way because he didn't like to get commands from his 16 year old nephew.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 You clearly never served in any army, or had command of any sort. Orders need to be clear and the reasons known to the people you issue the order. This would have been easily prevented if Robb explained him what his idea was. Edmure's reasoning was absolutely correct, given the informations he had at that time. You need to convey the bigger picture to your subordinates.
Robb's argument is valid but it can easily be seen as something he thought of it afterwards and didn't bother to inform the commander in charge. Inform as much as possible your own men and they will add to your success.
@@Crallux I don't know what liberal army you have served, but in actual wars, the soldiers don't get to ask the questions. They are expected to follow the orders of their superiors, even if the orders are faulty or immoral. In real life example, look at the charge of the light brigade during the Crimean war. Here, if Robb had sat explaining his motives to every commander under him, he wouldn't have been able to capture Jaime, wouldn't have won all the battles he won, etc.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 Did you serve in an army? I served and humans are humans. You can give an order to someone and he will do it but won't understand why he was given the order and that can be dangerous. Soldiers are not brainless beings.
They will act on their own doing what they feel is right to fullfill that order (depending on the situation, he will need to improvise). If the soldier doesn't know the big picture, he will act in a way, which is not favorable of what you intended. There isn't a clear checklist on how to react in some situation, but having knowledge of the bigger picture will help the soldier to act correctly.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 You do get that while very brave and all, the charge of te light brigade was beyond stupid. They all died to a man for nearly nothing. Besides that even if you ignore that Tully was defending his own lands, along with his own lords. His orders in the show apparently were "hold riverrun" an entirely valid way to do that is destroying the army headed for riverrun. As for the point of not being able to catch Jaime if he told all his lords his plans... he did tell them, he explicitly split up his army, told Roose Bolton to delay Tywin at the Green Fork and took his cavalry to relieve Riverrun
Love the Tully armour!
1:53.
Robb's expression doesn't change until Edmure tries to justify his lost men. Only then does he raise his voice. He still regrets sending 2,000 men to die.
Ah yes, Roob Stark - The Yooung Woolf
1:48 I love that despite this blunder, Robb was completely calm and reigning in his anger... riiiiiight up until he heard how many people died for that blunder, and loses his temper for just a moment. Long enough to emphasize just how critical and important it is to him that he keep as many of his own soldiers alive, probably not just for strategic value, but to ensure he can send as many of his loyal soldiers home to their families once the war's over. He wasn't just mad about losing numbers, he was mad for losing *people*. And notice after his outburst and seeing Edmure's reaction, he pulls himself back again. That's great portrayal.
He sent 1200 men to there death
yeah themayor is right, you're just making up things because of one line and that is extremely cringe bro
@@thamayor6324That's just D&D being lazy again. In the Books the second was never wiped out and remained as a second Army till the red wedding. D&D just decided to kill them to avoid having to follow two Armies
"If soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their Commander" - Tywin Lannister
Robb was too secretive about Edmure's TRUE orders, he simply told him this n that... yet as Edmure was Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Robb should have let him in wáy more on his true plans. Also because Edmure was his uncle. HE should have entrusted Edmure fár more!
So this 'blunder' was wáy more on Robb then Edmure actually.
I have been watching this video for 8 years and have never not laughed at “Roob Stark”
“I may have lost a robb, but i gained a roob.”
Tywin: I could have Robb’s head on a spike by now. Instead I have a roob.
Love how after Robb shouts "It's not about glory", Blackfish looks at Edmure like "You did it now."
Oh Brutus, you never stop backstabbing,do you? (Mance Rayder approves)
Rome reference ;)
+Mert Kalender Et tu Edmure Tully!!!!
We know no king, but the King in the North whose name is Roob!
If I were Edmure, I'd respond with:
"I failed you... I will make sure to only do exactly as you order in the future, nothing more. Until the day you start trusting me as one of your commanders and choose to share your plans with me"
I would have responded: "You just said that the Mountain is a Mad Dog with no Strategic thought in his head.
He isnt worth more than any other Commander.
So why do you want to capture him?
Why should i let him pillage one more of my villages?
Simply so you can have the glory of slaying him?"
To me Edmure did nothing wrong and Robb is just an idiot.
@@youtubestayatyourrootsforfsake that's the thing tho, edmure doesn't know, he does it based on the information that he has
Edmure " I have a Mill" Tully
Edmure Tully- legendary conqueror of the mill, lord and protector of the mill
Despite Edmure's strategic big mistake, there's something I find quite positive about him defeating Gregor and Tywin's army: if Lord Clegane was personally leading Lannister soldiers, with all likelihood some of those soldiers had to be his own, and they were the ones who helped him torture innocent people to death at Harrenhal! So, by slaying a few dozens of those rascals Edmure did bring justice to some of his brutalized people! Therefore thanks for this, Edmure Tully 😊! And don't worry, next time you lead soldiers into battle I'm sure you'll do better👍!
Ah yes, Roob Stark
Robb failed miserably. Keep in mind in the books he’s a 15 year old boy and Edmure has been in a position of command. Edmure as lord of the Riverlands has every right to defend his lands. Plus if Robb is setting this elaborate trap he should be letting the 2nd most important piece to his kingdom (Edmure) know the plan. Not doing so frankly is a grave insult…couple that with screwing over the Freys and killing Karstark and it only shows he wasn’t cut out to be king
Thought the same. Would like to see Robb sitting and waiting while the enemies burn down the North, while he has a command to wait and bait some guy.
That is absurd, and not remotely how the chain of command works. He gave a direct order, to his subordinate, during a war. His subordinate disobeyed said direct order. He is not at fault for mot carefully explaining the reasons behind his order, it's an army, not a fucking sharing-circle.
@@cr820 but Tullies were allies, not subordinates to Starks.
@@naneri they were really subordinates at this point since robb was king in the north and edmure just lord of riverrun
@@bencatzilla yes but when you’re dealing with various fiefdoms, the politics is a bit shakier…kill Karstark, ignore Bolton and betray the freys then you lose half of your army…if Edmure was a direct subordinate like the umbers then he should expect his orders to be followed without question. But he was more of an ally…who declared for Robb because it was his only option…
Roob?
thats what i thought
Mountain?
I wonder why they changed it from Tywin and his whole army pursuing Robb to just the Mountain. It lessens the damage Edmure had on Robb's plans. If it wasn't for that, Stannis would've sacked King's Landing, killed the Lannisters in there and Tywin would either die fighting or sue for peace.
Truly the moment when Robb became Roob
We love Roob Stark
Martyn and his brother are actually Tywin's nephew, the sons of Kevan, brothers of Lancel
Good ol’ Roob.
Roob Stark, The young WOOF!
Blackfish is Badass! We need more of him he's hilarious.
Maybe Robb could have shared his battle plans with his generals 🤷🏻♀️
Lol
Yes he's a bad general a bad king and an oath breaker
Roob Dood at teh Rood wooding.
+Heimlich Bandersnatch Doo Noort Roomoomboors!!!
Edmure the true champion
Dope wife, survived till the very end, gave the cringiest proposal for becoming king and got sat back down, got back to life.
Absolute madlad
Glad he's still alive lol
LET'S DO THIS! EDMURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE TULLY!
Saleem Karim :D :D :D
Saleem Karim
Blackfish: "Oh my God, he just ran in."
Catelyn: "Save him!"
Blackfish: "Oh geez, stick to the plan!"
Dartanius100 Robb: "for fucks sake, get him back!"
+Michael Smith Robb: Edmure you're just stupid as hell...
Edmure: At least i have a mill
Robb's face when edmure says he lost 208 men is my face when I'm downloading a new xbox one game, it gets to like 70% done, the installation automatically stops, I restart the download and it stops at the same percentage again 😂😂😂😂😂
Honestly, Robb really should have explained the reasoning for his strategy beforehand. Edmure was just trying to help.
Imagine how much different things would have occured if rob actually got what he wanted and the mountain was dead
That's one hell of a ripple effect.
Tywin wouldn't have arrived at King's Landing and Stannis would've taken the city.
and the Lannister boys taken at the mill were then killed by Karstark(?) which led to Rob losing half his forces, and we know the rest. Funny how one thing leads to another, eh?
Poor Edmure.Dude just wants a pat on the head and a "Atta boy!" in the worst way :D
Lmao and that’s his nephew he’s being grilled by. He probably held him as a baby only to get talked down upon later in life. Feels bad man.
I always loved how Robb says the head in a spike line
2:15 edmure looking in robbs direction then all a sudden he's looking down
2:03 Robb's hair is amazing, those curls are godly
Blackfish and Rob stark was a brilliant partnership. Wish we got more of it.
At least Edmure survived, House Tully is so overlooked making it one of my favorite houses. They always played an important role. Also aren’t Willem and Martyn Tywin’s nephews? Not his fathers brothers great grandsons
He should make a good Warden of the North in the Six Kingdoms as I suppose he would want to make good relations with his surviving nephew. That and try and lean on the remnants of House Frey to lessen their tolls, now that he is the most prominent relative by marriage they have.
Communication on behalf of Rob was warranted for his subordinates to follow the plans.
Edmure wasn't a mere subordinate of Robb like Bolton or Karstark, he was an ally, the lord of 1 of the 7 kingdoms and his uncle.
If there is one person Robb should have shared his plans with, it's Edmure. It was a big mistake from him.
I felt kinda bad for Edmure here...
And yet I'm the only person in this scene still alive! Ha!
Rast *Didn't you die beyond the wall though?* I'm guessing you commented this when you're profile pic was Edmure instead of Rast.
The Blackfish is so different. He's kind towards his family in the books
I'd forgotten about this. Going back and watching more of Edmure Tully after seeing Tobias Menzies in Outlander. What a brilliant scene!
Robbs demise is such good television. It slowly just all slips away from him, when he marries Tulisa.
This is why plans are explained
If only one person knows of a plan, what are the others supposed to do? Play Apples to Apples?
Unfortunately he is likely to be remembered as the White Trout
To be fair, it's Robb's fault rly, a leader has a duty to his commanders, one of those is to inform them of the bigger picture. Just tell him your 'genius plans' in advance and he will play his role perfectly.
God i miss him every day 😣
As a commander, When giving orders to your subordinates you need to give both the Mission and the Intent. Situations inevitably change and subordinate commanders need an overarching intent so that they can understand whether their decision making process lies within that intent. This is especially important when Comms are difficult or in the case of a medieval society impossible without a messenger which takes time.
This was Rob's fault as he gave a Mission to hold his position, without giving an Intent. His Uncle took the initiative within his assessment of the situation and decided that he was able to hold his position while conducting offensive action, seizing an opportunity.
Compare this to when Tywin briefs his own men, he always lays out what he wants them to achieve and then the wider context in which their part lies within the plan.
Essentially I want you to do 'X' as we are trying to achieve 'Y'.
All Rob has achieved in this scene is to create a commander who is more likely to hesitate during key decisions because it's not exactly in line with what Rob has Told him to do.
In the books it's worse. The goal wasn't to hunt down the Mountain, but to lead the Lannister host back into the west and therefore unable to effect STannis' assault on kings landing.
Now Robb's single huge problem was that Edmure technically acted correctly. He protected his domain from the Lannister forces and especially the Mountain who had been wrecking havoc.
Robb should have just told Edmure, "put up token resistance then fall back"
But Robb didn't do this. Robb's problem was always pride. Catelyn gave him that. Robb and Jon lvoe each other, but Robb did alienate Jon at several points. Robb let his hostage, Theon go back to the iron islands.
Robb all too happily accepted being King in the North.
Robb decided Jeyne's honour was worth so much mroe than 3,000 Frey troops and his bridge back to the North.
Robb's downfall was pride. The irony being, as evil as Walder Frey was, in the days before Robb died, Walder made sure to insult Robb and Cat's pride as much as he could.
honestly, Edmure saved Robb's behind.
Robb was bedridden at the crag shortly after the battle on the red fork. and even if he wasn't his supposed plan was foolhardy at best.
Disposition of forces-
Robb had at most 5,000 Cavalry, no reinforcements.
Tywin had 15,000 infantry, 5,000 cavalry as well as the 4,000+ man garrison at the golden tooth and the remnants of Stafford's host being reformed at Lannisport
the claimed plan was to run around avoiding battle until they could draw Tywin into a spot they found which would be good for an ambush, and capture him.
the problems with that are manifold.
1. they may be strictly cavalry, but they need to forage or storm castles for food, which would slow them. Tywin doesn't
2. Tywin has an equal sized cavalry detachment and has explicitly taken measures to ensure Bryden's patented "kill the outriders" doesn't work.
3. Tywin has no qualms about burning to deny Robb forage
4. Tywin *Never* leads from the front. he would never be captured in any supposed ambush as Jamie was unless it took his entire army.
5. Tywin is far more cautious and calculating than Jamie, he underestimated Robb once and it cost him his heir. he won't do it again
6. No matter how good a position Robb thinks he has, his men aren't local. anything he finds, the local westermen loyal to Tywin will almost certainly be aware of. Tywin has better knowledge of the terrain.
7. Tywin's bannermen will be providing raven intelligence on Robb's movements where Robb has nothing more than outriders to work off of.
I say claimed because it is likely an outright lie in order to browbeat Edmure into fixing RObb's mistake by marrying a Frey. Robb's plan could not have been concieved when he left for the west, and anything similar to such a plan fell apart before it started.
What i think Robb's really planned to do was join forces with the ironborn he was expecting Theon to bring to take Lannisport and the Rock. Then with his much strengthened force he would either move east to confront Tywin or wait in ambush for him to return west (bad communication with Edmure, plan fails).
and as for king's landing, even had Tywin been allowed to cross Stannis would still have failed. the Tyrells were already in position to stop him, they merely waited for Tywin. had he been 7 days gone into the west they and their 50-60,000 would have left without his 20,000 and smashed Stannis's 20,000
Nothing Edmure did hurt Robb, and in reality delayed the death he sowed with his own mistakes in trusting the Ironborn, giving command to Roose, and breaking his betrothal.
If only Hoster Tully would've been healthy and lucid to advise both Robb and Edmure...
In the books Willem and Martyn were the sons of Tywin's brother Kevan, and Martyn wasn't captured instead it was Tion Frey, the son of Tywin' sister. They likely used Martyn instead of Tion due to the Frey's still being allied to the Starks, though I think it would have been better to use Tion since it did show that not all of the Frey's were in agreemeant.
0:33. That look though….
Lmbo the way blackfish looked at edmure when Robb said it's not about the glory!
I call him Roob all the time now
Robb is also at fault for not keeping Edmure in the loop about his plan.
I love how i googled “game of thrones mill” and this was the second search result along with the same scene.
Edmure is the Ziggy Sobotka of Game of Thrones
Well Robb was right here but he went on to make his own big mistakes in the war
Davis609 His only military mistake was not wiping out the Freys the second they tried to bargain with him for passage across the Twins. They owed fealty so they owed the crossing.
Cam Bryant there were more mistakes like not marring the Frey girl that would of have Robb a bigger army and then killing Karstark was another stupid move and trusting too much in Roose Botlon
Cam Bryant His mistakes? Marrying Jeyne Westerling instead of Roslin Frey. Chopping Mr. Karstarks head of. Not telling Mr. Tully his plans. Letting the KINGSLAYER, KINGSLAYER! Escape! (who the hell lets only two people guard your most important prisoner?) Not legitimizing Mr. Snow earlier. Attending the wedding of Mr. Tully and Lady Roslin Frey.
+Garrus Vakarian He did legitimized Snow he sent two of his men with his will to Greywater Watch the seat of House Reed, his most loyal bannerman.
Luis of House Stark I know. I do believe in the Grand Northern Conspiracy ( Don't look it up if you aren't catched up to book five).
I loved Robb as a character but his big flaw here was NOT informing his men of his plan before this happened
that's not really how these wars work, you need to trust your commanders and do what they say
what if for some reason the mountain captured edmure or some other commander? then he would learn precisely what Robb's plans are, that's why orders come from headquarters and the men on the ground follow them because they likely do not have all the information to make the best movements
edmure had good intentions with a clear goal, but as robb explained, his actions were impatient and insubordinate
@@bdeamon1 only Robb's real instructions to the Riverlords was to guard his rear, which meant they're to protect Robb from behind...so their formed conclusion, Robb was going to take Casterly Rock or Lannisport...not to lure Tywin...
I love Roob
Good to see Brutus looking soldierly.
ROOB!
All hair Roob Stark! King in the North
+Sam Curtis
Jammy Lanister sends his regards.
+TheEvilKungFuMan Tyroon Lainsteer is my favorite character
RIP Roob Stark
Edmure and Brynden Tully both have large roles in The Terror by AMC. Mance Ryder's actor is in it as well. Fantastic actors. I highly recommend.
I love Roob Stark. Almost as much as I love Joon Snoow.
“Roob Stark”
Nah no one gets clowned more in this show than edmure
**throws arms to the side**
He could not withstand us
Robb getting angry at his commanders for crushing the enemy in the most obvious way possible instead of reading Robbs mind and luring the mountain out. Makes sense why he would be so pissed edmure disobeyed him despite the fact robb never told him what he wanted him to do lmao