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The SHOCKING Real Story of the Dresden Firestorm
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- Опубліковано 10 кві 2022
- The bombing of Dresden in 1945 resulted in a firestorm that wiped out the 7th largest city in Germany. This event sparked a massive historical debate over whether it was legitimate or not, whether it was a war crime or not, and whether there were 25,000 fatalities, or 400,000! Using on-screen references, this historical documentary presents the real story of what happened in Dresden on the 13th of February 1945, and examines the evidence to conclude a reasonable estimate of the fatalities, and whether the Dresden bombing was a war crime or not.
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ABOUT TIK 📝
History isn’t as boring as some people think, and my goal is to get people talking about it. I also want to dispel the myths and distortions that ruin our perception of the past by asking a simple question - “But is this really the case?”. I have a 2:1 Degree in History and a passion for early 20th Century conflicts (mainly WW2). I’m therefore approaching this like I would an academic essay. Lots of sources, quotes, references and so on. Only the truth will do.
This video is discussing events or concepts that are academic, educational and historical in nature. This video is for informational purposes and was created so we may better understand the past and learn from the mistakes others have made.
I read three entire books in less than a week for this video, so I'd appreciate if you give the video a thumbs up 👍 (it's the reason I look so tired in the video)
In addition, you know full well that the National Socialists will be in the comments spouting nonsense about this topic, so be careful not to believe everything you read down there.
The reason the targets for most of the heavy bombers was changed from factories etc. 6:43 was because the primary purpose of strategic bombing was to draw up the German fighter planes so they could be destroyed. This strategy was so the Allies would have air supremacy on D-Day and the Normandy breakout.
Thumbs up! 👍
I’ve read the Taylor Dresden book. Good read.
@@ZER0ZER0SE7EN, they bombed Dresden in 1945 to have air superiority in 1944?
So anyone who does not agree with you is automatically a Nazi? 😄 A bit naïve, is it not?
Once the ammunition trains lose their priorities and get sidelined, the craven, offside pamphleteers can then grind their axes, sell their biased views mostly unmolested,
and be very much noticed in the popular press.
Thanks for another great definitive item.
I am living in Dresden and I talked to actual witnesses of the bombing who were children at the time wandering through the firestorm and seeing burning people all around them while searching for their parents. It is said that people were running into the water of the river but then the water was burning too. Unimaginable for me.
Now there are almost no eye witnesses alive to talk about it. I am afraid that we might loose touch with how devastating war can be.
There aren't many eyewitnesses to the concentration camps or the brutalities of the Eastern Front remaining either.
That’s horrible.
To make matters worse, they had refugees there as the city was a safe haven as it didn't even have any war-related targets of value
To reduce public outrage, it was later claimed by Britain that they did (history is written by the victors) - but ironically, historical accounts concluded that these so-called targets weren't even hit
What was hit was the city center and other residential areas and the use of explosives followed by incinerary bombs, proved that the point was to kill the civilian population
The firestorm that ensued melted the roads and people fleeing had their feet burnt alive.
To summarise, over 200k people died (Allies claimed only 20k) and it took two weeks for the Germans just to burn the bodies of the dead due to the sheer number of them.
It was a war crime and Holocaust of epic proportions that lasted two days.
As a Brit and American I apologize to the Germans profusely. As bad as the Nazis were, innocent Germans didn't deserve this atrocity.
The writer Kurt Vonnegut was in Desden as a Prisoner of War when the bombarbment happend. There is book by him: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five
War is awful, and still there are a few demented NATO leaders now willing to risk a far worse war with Russia.
I only saw my father cry once. He was a waist gunner in a B17, and was in one of the bombers that destroyed Dresden. After the war, when I was only 4 years old, we traveled to Germany to visit my uncle, who had married a German girl, and was living in Leipzig. We took a day trip to Dresden, and as soon as we were in sight of the city my father broke down hysterically. It scared us all. He was inconsolable for several hours. We never talked about it.
One messed up thing I read about Dresden bombing is they piled up hundreds of civilian bodies after the bombing.
It was so much that it created two massive piles on each street, and you had to walk in between on a "path".
Many of those bodies were children or women because all the men were in the army at the front.
Oh they cremated the women and children in Sobidor, Auschwitz, Treblinka etc.
So I really couldn't care less.
Seventy years ago, my mother and I visited a family on a tranquil farm in New England after Church services.
The father of the family remained at home and seldom spoke as he shuffled between the family home and a separate workshop where he made briar pipes.
In fact, I can't recall ever hearing his voice during our many visits.
A half century later, I met the daughter who was my age and she explained why her father never spoke.
Before the war, he'd studied at Dresden and knew the people, places, and cultural richness of that city. His name was Gettsinger.
During WW2 he flew a B-24 during bombing raids over Germany. He knew what he was destroying at Dresden and couldn't bear to ever hear any mention of that city.
Despite the passage of many years, he would spontaneously burst into tears at any mention of Dresden.
He was a pilot, or co-pilot, and had no choice. He had to fly and knew what he was destroying. A court-marshal awaited if he refused.
He was not alone. During the VietNam era, I heard of pilots from that war who had similar experiences of after having had to bomb Hue.
How was it that politicians could declare who should bear the blame other than themselves.
Ask Joe Biden & Company...
The last 3 years should have proven, once and for all, that politicians can never be trusted.
I think ... we all like to blame the other guy's politicians. Never blame ours, it's never our own fault. Fair enough, too.
If there was/were any justice then the nice folks who start wars should be the first casualties of those wars ... and the last.
We allow our politicians immunity from the consequences of their actions no matter how bad the consequences are. We've done that throughout history. What's even worse, we usually reward them for it.
If you do the killing, you have to learn to live with it. If you order somebody else to do the killing, you feel fine. I don't know why that happens but it's the way people work.
@@neilreynolds3858 Sometimes it's a case of the lesser of two evils. Clue, hee hoo time again-
-hee hoo has the biggest gun writes the rules.
As someone living in Dresden: the city hasnt recovered completely even now in 2022. still every few months there is a WW2 bomb being found on construction sites. There are still quite a few areas/properties that just stand vacant since the buildings there were destroyed in the bombings now nearly 80 years ago.
Did the Soviets just ignore it?
Now imagine an entire country, Vietnam
@@zopEnglandzip they didn’t care enough to help the germans like the allies did. They despised them.
Ah yes, something which is a common occurence in Rotterdam as well
@@zopEnglandzip Just like everybody else... same happens in the former West Germany. If I interpret the DW report correctly, most bombs these days are found in Nordrhein-Westfalen that took the bulk of allied bombings in WW2. It is practically impossible to detect a buried bomb in the urban environment. We ("the Soviets") still excavate unexploded ordinance in midtown Moscow, every year. There were no wartime bombings in the affected areas, just some warehouses and WW1-period infantry training range.
My aunt was a member of forced labor in Dresden as a part of all kids born in 1924 in Bohemia. After the first wave she was told by the German supervisor : "Leave, as a Czech you don't deserve this, go home to Prague, this is not your doing , it's our war!", thus saving her life. So she run with other Czech laborers to the hills a watched in horror from above Dresden the inferno staged by the second wave. ....I'm sure it was a long walk home but the war was for her over.
that supervisor made a very honorable decision
I hope the supervisor survived somehow. I also hope your aunt lived a happy life after the war.
The 55 million deaths caused by the Nazi nation are shocking and the consequence of the Nazi nation's barbarism. By the way, this bombing of Dresden would not have happened without the barbarism of the Nazi nation before it. The first German attack on Poland in 1939 was just the beginning of German bomb terror! The Nazi nation actually started this war with the Air Force bomb terror. The bombing of Wieluń comprised air raids on the Polish town of Wieluń by German air force on 1 September 1939. Germany's air force began bombing Wieluń in the early morning on the first day of World War II. The bombing has been described by several historians as the first act of World War II. The city had neither air defenses nor any apparent military targets. Germany's air force bombed also such nearby towns as Działoszyn, Radomsko, and Sulejów, which also had no military targets. The Wieluń bombing destroyed at least 70 percent of the town's buildings (as much as 90 percent, in the city center). There were many civilian casualties and that was intentional. One of the first places hit was the hospital, which likely had Red Cross markings. 32 persons in the hospital were killed. After the hospital began burning, German pilots shot at patients trying to escape the building. The German pilots were actually chasing civilians throughout the town. Targets destroyed by German bombing included: Farna Church, built in the 13th-14th centuries A mid-19th-century synagogue The Augustinian cloister. Parts of the 19th-century Royal Castle. The 15th-century city walls, severely damaged Over a dozen historic 18th- and early-19th-century houses. The city hall, with its 14th-century Kraków Gate, survived when a bomb got stuck in the city hall's roof and failed to explode. That was the first bombing of many German bombings against civilians in Poland! But bombing was just one of the many methods of them to killing civilians! Most were gassed and shot! Tens of Millions have been murdered by all means including bombs. Including millions of children.
So no pity for the Nazi Nation!
I'm sure this was real and actually happened..
@@legendary7957yahoo ...THAT'S THE TRUTH-!!!
Hit ler on 1 September 1940: "And should the Royal Air Force drop two thousand or three thousand or four thousand kilograms of bo mbs, then we will now drop 150,000; 180,000; 300,000; 400,000; yes one million kilograms in a single night. And should they declare they will greatly increase their attacks on our cities, then we will erase their cities! "
His intent was clear, what he lacked was capability. The Allies did not lack the capability.
One of your best videos TIK.
You made it feel like I was there. I could almost feel the fear, the heat and the fire.
No glory in war for sure, but sometimes people can be very brave.
One ma dicks was there it was huge even in the firestorm everyone seen say so it like a real dick tower silhouetted in the night just like Godzilla but for nazis anyway it was a long time ago (1944) so everyone forgot but I inherited it from grampa
We had a family friend- who survived the raid- he was Lithuanian and was fleeing the Soviet advance. My mother said he was the most unhappy man she had ever met- he was in a cellar and somehow survived but his mother and sister did not. I assume he felt guilty about this but I never ever discussed Dresden with him and he never mentioned it. His life was changed when he met and married a German woman who was originally from Konigsberg but had come to Nottingham to work in the lace factories after WW2 and his life changed- they were an incredibly happy couple. .
We said it would never happen again. Then it did. Then we said it would happen again. Then it did. Then we said it would never happen again. Now we're receiving unconfirmed reports of chemical weapons used in ukraine
I'm glad he found happiness. Living through something like Dresden would be awful beyond belief.
Glad to hear it.
Grateful dead said it best... every cloud has a silver lining. Nice to hear a positive out of so much negative
I hate you. I wish you hadn't shared this story. I am so sad. I don't want to be alive anymore.
My Aunt Hikie was born in Dresden and as a young girl survived both the bombing and firestorm. She was 8 years old and today is 85. Her sister and mother also survived but are both passed on now. She told me when the bombing stopped they came up from the celler and tried to run out the front door but stopped because their neighbors were all sucked down the street into part of the firestorm. So they turned ahd ran out the backdoor and this saved their lives. Their neighbors were a family of 5. Mother and 4 children. They were physically sucked off their feet and straight into a massive firestorm at the end of the street. Scary.
my dad was a prisoner of war in that city when it was bombed his camp was hit also he had to repair the railway tracks he also sayed that the prisoners thought it was the end of the world
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
Victor Gregg was another POW in Dresden as was the American Kurt Vonnegut, when the bombardment occured.... Victor Gregg wrote several books and had numerous interviews and speaking engagements discussing his experience during the Dresden firestorm.... He was a 25 year old British paratrooper when he got captured at Arnhem (aka: Operation Market Garden) and was sent to Dresden as a POW. He sabotaged a soap factory machine and was sentenced to death the following day. That evening, while him and large group of condemned men awaited death, incendiaries crashed through the glass cupola ceiling in the building they were held. This killed many by both falling glass and incendiaries burning into their bodies and nothing could be done to put the incendiaries out. Shortly afterwards, a large high explosive bomb blew the wall out killing many more including his POW friend. As he exited the building in danger of collapse, he seen horrific scenes of fire everywhere with explosives and incendiaries still falling and detonating. He seen many people of all ages, dead, on fire and horribly burnt and injured. Only a combination of keeping calm from years of combat experience (he was in North Africa including the Alamein battle, and the Arnhem battle), and lots of luck, allowed him to escape to safety in the outskirts of the city. He passed by many who didn't make it, as explosions, falling buildings, heat and incendiaries took many.....Days later, him and other prisoners were taken in to search for survivors in the rubble. One day he was able to escape and made it to the Russian lines..... Sadly, Victor Gregg passed away on October 12, 2021, just 3 days shy of his 101 birthday. R.I.P..... Many of his interviews are on UA-cam.
Victor Gregg stated in those interviews that it was the most evil thing he ever witnessed. Mr. Gregg said he was ashamed that his country committed this atrocity, but claimed he never blamed the pilots because they were just following orders!
Wow .....speechless
@Rodger Dennan Well least finally people are starting to talk about war crimes allies committed. Till now i have seen only positive coverage of allies as heroes and angels and Germans as unspeakable evil who exterminated quadtrillion billion gorillion, literally satan and demons. When in reality war is hell and there is no good side in war, just different shades of warcrimes, but its the victors who write the history and can push their propaganda supreme upon rest of us for century until truth starts to come out.
@Rodger Dennan All I've ever heard ( .. I'm 66 ) .. is spelled horror. My shop in Las Vegas, Nevada was adjacent to the old Basic Magnesium plant, circa WW II, which manufactured the magnesium, ( the continuously burning ingredient) my native leaselord informed me, to " burn down Germany & Japan. "
Now that is quite a story! That would be a great movie! :)
My wife's grandfather (from Belgium) was a forced laborer in Germany when he became 18 years old.
He made searchlights not that far from Dresden. He tells that night turned into day and that he could feel the wind sucked towards Dresden.
He was forced to help with the "cleanup". When he talks about this (the men is 97) tears come in his eays and he stops talking.
The images he saw are to difficult to talk about.
Thank you TIK for a great and balanced video.
Forced labour...paid slavery
Why did it bother him seeing dead Germans? He should have rejoiced in their deaths.
Like the Civil war in the USA, I can't imagine having to deal with all the dead bodies left in the aftermath. That would do a number on your brain.
@@kfl611 The NAZIs had to deal with the dead bodies. There were not enough of them. The Germans didn't have a problem gassing millions, so we shouldn't have a problem killing them. General Harris was correct, all the people killed in Dresden weren't worth the life of one British Grenadier. It was the generals that took the NAZI bait and didn't fire back in the press that helped push those men to suicide. Most generals are spineless politicians not warriors.
@@kfl611 Very interesting you mention The American Civil War , War Btwn: The States , where nearly 720000 men died ;it was Union General William Tecumseh Sherman that said "War Is Hell " as he laid a wasteland of Georgia marching toward the sea late 1864- up til Appamaddox Va. ( Pretty sure General Lee surrendered in Va.).
The American Civil War brought death and destruction, civilian displacement , including the displacement of slaves , and trench warfare, the introduction of the battling gun , and machine gun
It was a harbinger of what was to come later by 1914. In fact quite a few European powers looked how the USA hah mobilized in the North , and South , and warrily looked @ the potential military prowess the USA might exert down the road.
When I was in my teens in the mid 80s... We had a neighbor who was a an older retired guy. He had been a bomber pilot in WW2.
He stored his old wooden fishing boat at Eglin AFB, at a marina used by active military and veterans.
He used to pay me $5 an hour to go out fishing with him, as he needed an extra set of hands. We used to head out just before dawn, and get back at sunset. We did some great fishing just of the coast of Ft. Walton Beach/Destin, Fl...
He told me that he did bombing runs on Dresden. He hated it. It really wrecked him emotionally. His wife and kids made a big deal about his war service, and hailed him a hero. But he felt terrible about the whole. He couldn't understand why we allied with communist Russia, and felt like Russia was the bigger enemy. And they did indeed become the bigger enemy, five minutes after the war ended. He thought the whole war was backwards. He never talked it before he talked to me about it. I was 14 yrs old at the time, it was heavy conversation. He later worked in the aviation industry, and said the US immediately hired Nazi scientists and engineers...as did much of the world. He said the narrative seemed inverted with WW2.
Europa, The last battle is a decent documentary that tells a different story about the war.
He wasn't wrong. Thank you for your comment.
Your problem with the Russians is because you were fighting your own war against them. American industry could not overnight adapt to peace time production so Hollywood produced another "enemy" for themselves to justify producing and selling arms. Too complicated for your simple american mind ?
No, it's a hive of lies. Go outside. @@meetshield2461
this can't be serious. We allied with RUSSIA because RUSSIA didn't attack Britain for 4 months during BATTLE OF BRITAIN , THEN BOMB BRITAIN FOR 8 MONTHS during the BLITZ , THEN send V1 and V2 rockets for last 10 months of war. I could go on but whats the point
I remember when my Grandparents told me about the endless formations of Allied Bombers in 1944/45 over our little village in Czechoslovakia.. they said when they flew over to germany, they were pretty low, full of bombs.. and when they flew back, they were higher than before... They said you could actually watch the citites burning in the distance.. in the middle of the night..
My uncle Clyde stover from Tennessee was captured at Normandy on jun.7th 1944.He was taken to a P.O.W. camp outside Dresden.He told my mom that they had to come to the city and drag out dead bodies and bury them.He suffered from PTSD and took his own life 6 months after coming home in the winter of 45.
Sad in the extreme, Mr. Paul.
@@steffenritter7497 Yes it was Stephen .He was about 30 miles from Dresden and in early apr was liberated by the Russian steam rollers.He told my mother they captured the camp,and made the German SS strip naked.The Russians got drunk and broke all these bottles on this dirt road leading into the camp.Thry made the Germans run up and down this road naked with broken glass on it until they bled to death or the first one that stopped running was shot in the head!After that they would not deter from their line of attack and would not take American POWS to American lines but did tell them the direction to walk in whereas the lines were 30 miles away.My uncle walked and got there to tell others where the guys were.They rescued the Americans a few hours later.I don't remember the name of the camp.
In that moment he probably realized maybe he wasnt fighting for the good guys. So sad. His brain probably melted down seeing all that and trying to reconcile it with american war propaganda
Kurt Vonnegut wrote about this experience.
Sad story! It would not have bothered me to bury members of the Nazi nation! I probably would have enjoyed seeing so many of them dead. The reason is obvious! To think what crimes this Nazi nation committed. By the way, if your uncle Clyde would have been a Polish prisoner of war (POW) after the fights of 1939 or a Soviet soldier, he probably wouldn't have come home. The Nazi soldiers or the like would very likely have murdered him as POW. Polish prisoners of war were beaten, sent to perform slave labour or shot. Commanders of units which had put up a stiff fight were penalised for their ‘impudence’ by being shot when they eventually surrendered or, in a few instances, incinerated with flame-throwers. According to their racial views resistance by Polish ‘sub-humans’ was not considered military virtue, just insolence which was very inhumanly punished. There were many massacres of Polish POWs committed by Nazi Wehrmacht soldiers. (For those who don't know what the Wehrmacht is. That's what the German army was called back then.) The Wehrmacht and their generals were willing tools of the German Nazi government! Polish civilians were murdered by the Wehrmacht but also Polish Prisoners of war were murdered by the Wehrmacht. During the German raid on Poland, soldiers of the Wehrmacht carried out about 60 percent of the mass murders of Polish civilians. These were not just a few massacres by the Wehrmacht on Polish POWs and civilians. That had a method and was part of the war of extermination against the Slavs wich Poles are too. Because according to the genocidal German "General Plan East", the majority of the Slavic Poles, like all Slavs, were to be murdered.
In many cases large groups of Polish soldiers were murdered after capture. For example Massacre of Ciepielów: Ciepielów massacre that took place on 8 September 1939 was one of best documented war crimes of the Wehrmacht during its raid of Poland. The number of the murdered Polish soldiers was 300. The murder of the Slavic Polish soldiers was part of the genocide against the Poles, because according to the genocidal German "General Plan East".
The same genocidal German "General Plan East" applied to Polish civilians. As already mentioned, the Wehrmacht soldiers also murdered civilians! For example after the Warsaw uprising in Wola a suburb of Poland's capital city, Warsaw there was a systematic murdering in various massacres of between 70,000 and 90,000 Polish civilians by German Wehrmacht, SS and other special murder units! So units of the Wehrmacht and the SS and other special murder units massacred in Wola captured Polish resistance fighters, men, women, children and the elderly. Not even nuns or hospital staff and hospital patients were spared. In terms of the number of victims, the Wola massacre was the largest war crime on European soil in World War II. During and after the Warsaw uprising there were also other various massacres in which the Wehrmacht was also involved. After the uprising, Warsaw was almost systematic completely destroyed, taking part in this destruction as well Units of the Wehrmacht. There were also many rapes committed by soldiers of the Wehrmacht contrary to the legend that is spread that the Wehrmacht did not rape. Soldiers who murder also rape. Rapes were also committed against Polish women and girls before shooting the female captives in massacres carried out by the Wehrmacht soldiers, SS and other special murder units like Volksdeutscher Selbstschutz.
Otherwise, the Polish POWs, who were captured in combat together with the western allies in western allied uniforms, had the same luck as the American uncle Clyde and were treated somewhat according to the rules of the Geneva Convention.The Soviet POWs didn't have such luck like uncle Clyde and Polish POWs, who were captured in combat together with the western allies in western allied uniforms. Because they were murdered just like the Slavic Polish POWs in 1939 according to the same genocidal racist "General Plan East". For according to this plan, the Slavic peoples of the Soviet Union were to be exterminated. All in all a total of 3.5 million Soviet POWs were murdered with 2 million murdered by starvation. Incidentally, the German government was very generous to the survivors of the death camps for soviet POWs and paid the last ones still alive the one-off sum of 2,500 euros in compensation 70 years after the end of the war.
By the way, since 1936 the vast majority of German followers and supporters of the German Nazi government were thus they were Nazis. So civilians of the Nazi nation also were often murderers, because not only the Wehrmacht and the SS and other special murder units murdered! For example, my grandpa was hit by a German civilian to death. This German civilian was the watchdog for the Polish workers in a factory seized by the Germans in Poland. My grandpa worked there. By the way, it was impossible to quit the job. The Germans had the list of employees. And besides, my grandfather had to work to feed the family. The German overseer got angry with my grandpa! He hit him in his anger until he died. This happened more often in Poland. By the way, even their children murdered! One can read about these murderous children in this link! Unfortunately I can't post the link because this will delete the comment, but one can find the link by entering that as a google search term: "death-marches-book-details-german-citizens-role-in-end-of-war-killings" Quote from the link: "A genocidal mentality that had systematically dehumanized the Jews and the Slavs, led to the collective hunt...More than 250,000 concentration camp prisoners died in death marches shortly before the end of World War II." The link reports that Civilians participated in the hunt for hundreds of concentration camp prisoners who, during an American bombing attack on the city and its train station, had fled from the freight wagons, some of them in flames, in which they were being transported. Local police officers, guards and members of the Volkssturm national militia and the Hitler Youth executed their victims in a nearby forest." Hitler Youth were children! Civilians participated in the hunt for hundreds of concentration camp prisoners who, during an American bombing attack on the city and its train station, had fled from the freight wagons, some of them in flames, in which they were being transported. Local police officers, guards and members of the Volkssturm national militia and the Hitler Youth executed their victims in a nearby forest." Hitler Youth were children! I further quote: "The prisoners were killed like animals, according to a British military report. Up to 300 people died in the massacre, with the leader of a Hitler Youth group in Celle killing more than 20 alone. Government and local officials and the Hitler Youth, as well as local residents abused or killed large numbers of those who, in the last stage of their lives filled with suffering, were forced on marches or had spent days being transported across Germany in overfilled freight cars. The Allies captured the city four days later. At least 250,000 prisoners lost their lives on death marches between January and May 1945." This Nazi nation was completely megalomaniac, mad, criminal, amoral and degenerated!
Uncle Clyde probably didn't know all that because then he wouldn't have any mercy and no pity for the Nazi nation!
Those 25,000 corpses were the ones that were found. How many thousands simply incinerated into smoke without a trace?
I remember a witness saying there were crepes of ashes on the floor. He only realised what it was months after
learn to listen! Fcking illiterate jerks! Read anf listen what was said! The Germans themselves estated 35thousands. What the f. are you now? The brainbug knowing things thatbeven the authorities, the order police didnt know? Pathetic little fckers
We can follow TIK’s deeply researched, highly intelligent commentary that corresponds to other recent reports, or we can pay attention to your worthless comment.
It depends on a lot of things. If the Hamburg firestorm raids were anything to go by then yes, there probably were a number of people who were incinerated and never found or identified. But the casualty figures for Dresden have always been ‘in play’. The truth is that nobody knows. Do you count the victims in the city and stop there? Or do you include the refugees on the roads outside the city in the days following? The figures over 100,000 are almost certainly not accurate and yes, some of that was Nazi propaganda but with books from the likes of Frederick Taylor, I think there has been a bit of a tendency to swing back the other way, perhaps to the extent of underestimating. I didn’t like Taylor’s book. I didn’t like his book on the Berlin Wall either, for much the same reason. Not because his version of events didn’t tally with mine - in fact, he did succeed in changing my view. But Taylor seems to be trying to erase that sense of guilt felt by many a bomber crew on this operation and so many others like it and he’s just a bit too strident in his characterisations for me to be comfortable with what he’s saying. I will never know how those men felt and yes, everyone knows there was a war on. But adopting the, ‘Oh well, the Germans bombed Coventry’, line as a central tenet for thinking it only right and proper that Dresden should suffer as it did doesn’t quite cut it. Sure feelings ran high at the time but trying to take us back to thinking the same way isn’t a particularly noble position fifty or sixty years later.
I was in Dresden a bit over 30 years ago and it was still in ruins but with a large amount of realestate occupied by DDR-era monoliths. In fact I stayed in one of them, a former youth training facility to the south west of the city centre. The cobblestone streets still spoke, even then, of the city’s tragic history.
This is the commentary and thoughtful response I did not expect here. Thank you, I position this with what Howard Zinn talks about in a people's history about how bombers actually felt.
My moms grandma from her mom's side wrote and received letters from family in Dresden. The letters eventually stopped around the bombing. Family members would try and make contact with family in Germany early 2000s, but I am pretty sure they died during bombing
Cry me a river. Nazi criminals died.
Rip to the german civillians brutally murdered by the RAF.
The father of a German friend survived the Dresden bombing at the age of 5. His mother had, at the last minute, chosen to go to a different shelter. The first one ended up being destroyed. Since this raid, the survivor has considered the raid to be his "second birthday".
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
My uncle was in that 2nd raid as a navigator he said he didn't have to do much because he could see the glow at 20.000 feet. He never got over the shock off the death toll and took his own life in 1948.
My Grandfather was a navigator in 187 squadron - He cried if he remembered that event.
After the war he would ride his motorcycle at dangerous speeds hoping it would take his life.
apparently the smells were unmistakeable at even 20,000 ft.
@@StihlmaddArborist he probably didn't need to smell anything. Common sense would have told him just how bad the fires were. I would imagine he probably had either first hand or at least second hand knowledge of the terror and loss suffered by the inhabitants of cities like London, York or Manchester. Putting 2 and 2 together was probably easy from that point. I don't envy him.
One of my greats was a pow in a camp near Dresden. Sorry to hear about your family member; but remember there were massive forces labour camps near Dresden.
@@fredjohnson9833 York was not sytematically bombed!
@@marypetrie930 my point is he probably knew how devastating bombs could be.
Just another example of "do as I say, not as I do." The Americans and British committed war crimes just as bad as any other country involved. Winnie was especially guilty, dangling his own countrymen as bait, he had Berlin bombed 7 times before AH finally retaliated, just to get the Americans to join in the war. At least FDR at that time, didn't fall for bloody Winnie's little trick, but unnecessary bombing began on England 's cities. Oh well, what's a few commoners worth? Churchill was sick
No don't even compare Nazi war crimes to allied 'warcrimes"
Hitler started it
You know nothing so be quiet.
Actually, thousands of British civilians were killed by their own AA gunners. The fuses on AA shells often failed and fell on homes. The British also incurred the wrath of the French, killing more French civilians in bombing raids than the Germans did British civilians during the blitz.
@@wewuzaryansThe R.A.F bombed Germany first.
Outstanding presentation, I have seen several mentions of this incident and read a book decades ago. Yours is by far the best discussion 👍
Many people in the twin towers during 911 suffered the same fate as the people of Dresden because they listened to the "authorities" and returned to their offices.
Note to self; during an emergency, follow your gut instinct. It's no guarantee you'll survive but at least you live or die by your own decision rather than someone elses.
How about all those kids and their teachers on the South Korean ferry MV Sewol… the idiots masquerading as “authorities” kept them in their cabins even as the ship was flipping over and filling up with water. Oh but the Captain and other “authorities” got up on deck where the Coast Guard could rescue them,
same thing with Pompei and other volcanic eruptions. its ALLLLL about MONEY by the way.
The 50 million deaths caused by the Nazi nation are shocking and certainly not the consequence of the Nazi nation's barbarism like the bombing of Dresden. The first German attack on Poland in 1939 was just the beginning of German bomb terror! The Nazi nation actually started this war with the Air Force bomb terror. The bombing of Wieluń comprised air raids on the Polish town of Wieluń by German air force on 1 September 1939. Germany's air force began bombing Wieluń in the early morning on the first day of World War II. The bombing has been described by several historians as the first act of World War II. The city had neither air defenses nor any apparent military targets. Germany's air force bombed also such nearby towns as Działoszyn, Radomsko, and Sulejów, which also had no military targets. The Wieluń bombing destroyed at least 70 percent of the town's buildings (as much as 90 percent, in the city center). There were many civilian casualties and that was intentional. One of the first places hit was the hospital, which likely had Red Cross markings. 32 persons in the hospital were killed. After the hospital began burning, German pilots shot at patients trying to escape the building. The German pilots were actually chasing civilians throughout the town. Targets destroyed by German bombing included: Farna Church, built in the 13th-14th centuries A mid-19th-century synagogue The Augustinian cloister. Parts of the 19th-century Royal Castle. The 15th-century city walls, severely damaged Over a dozen historic 18th- and early-19th-century houses. The city hall, with its 14th-century Kraków Gate, survived when a bomb got stuck in the city hall's roof and failed to explode. That was the first bombing of many German bombings against civilians in Poland! After Poland, they then murdered civilians with their warplanes in other countries as well. But bombing was just one of the many methods of them to killing civilians! Most were gassed and shot! Tens of Millions have been murdered by all means including bombs. Including millions of children.
So no pity for the Nazi Nation
@@GreatPolishWingedHussars I totally understand your anger. The Nazi atrocities were bad are unforgivable. Wanting to inflict horror and misery on them is understandable. Unfortunately, there were undoubtedly many German civilians living in Dresden who despised the Nazis and did whatever they could to stop them. The indiscriminate devastation of the fire bombing was unfortunate. And I say it again: I don’t blame you for your anger.
@@jelliebird37 This sentence of you is wrong: "The Nazi atrocities were bad are unforgivable." In the sentence, the word Nazis must be replaced by Germans, then the sentence is correct! This sentence is also a lie: "Undoubtedly many German civilians living in Dresden who despised the Nazis and did whatever they could to stop them." Because there was hardly any resistance in the German population because since 1936 the vast majority of German followers and supporters of the German Nazi government were thus they were Nazis. The women were Germans too! No pity for followers and supporters of the Nazis because they were Nazis themselves! Women have also participated in crimes. Such as murdering, guarding and torment of slave labourers. A total of twenty million slave laborers were maltreated by millions! The range of their crimes was wide. Even their children murdered! One can read about these murderous children in this link! Unfortunately I can't post the link because this will delete the comment, but one can find the link by entering that as a google search term: "death-marches-book-details-german-citizens-role-in-end-of-war-killings" Quote from the link: "A genocidal mentality that had systematically dehumanized the Jews and the Slavs, led to the collective hunt...More than 250,000 concentration camp prisoners died in death marches shortly before the end of World War II.
Many of them were murdered by civilians... For example they participated in the hunt for hundreds of concentration camp prisoners who, during an American bombing attack on the city and its train station, had fled from the freight cars, some of them in flames, in which they were being transported. Local police officers, guards and members of the Volkssturm national militia and the Hitler Youth executed their victims in a nearby forest." Hitler Youth were children! I further quote: "The prisoners were killed like animals, according to a British military report. Up to 300 people died in the massacre, with the leader of a Hitler Youth group in Celle killing more than 20 alone. The Allies captured the city four days later...The more the war approached its end, and the more obvious the prisoners' presence in the midst of the German population became, the more regularly German civilians participated. Those civilians included government and local officials, members of the Nazi Party and the Hitler Youth, as well as local residents. They abused or killed large numbers of those who, in the last stage of their lives filled with suffering, were forced on marches or had spent days being transported across Germany in overfilled freight cars. At least 250,000 prisoners lost their lives on death marches between January and May 1945." This Nazi nation was completely megalomaniac, mad, criminal, amoral and degenerated!
The indiscriminate devastation of the fire bombing was not an unfortunate but the just punishment of the Nazi nation! No mercy and no pity for the Nazi nation!
My grandma was evacuated from Ukraine through Dresden. She worked in a shoe factory for a few weeks and then she was sent to work in Austria.
She still has her German citizenship papers. Half my family was sent back to the Soviet Union after the war and were never heard from again.
They were Trawniki or 14th SS :P ?
I thought only I knew about Trawniki.....
My Latvian in-laws were given the option to leave Europe or return to Latvia, now under Soviet control. One brother went to Canada, the rest came to Australia. My father-in-law still thought the Russians were after him in the 1970's.
Good
They were mennonites. non-combatant.
Volga Germans
My grandfather’s best friend was a native of Dresden. He was 17 years old, wounded and in a hospital. He recalls the bombings very differently to what you described. He saw bodies turned to mush, babies and mother welded together from being cooked alive. The deathly screams of children, women and the elderly. He said the smell was gut wrenching from the burning and liquidation of the human body.
This testimony has also been backed up a million times by survivors and witnesses. It really pains me to see when people continuously water down what the allies also subjected innocent men, women and children to during the war because the countrymen can’t bare the thought of their country committing such inhumane acts.
You know what GOOD. Germans were accomplices to mass murder and mass theft. They didn't object to millions of murders. This lot at least paid for their crimes. No innocent German men or women. As to their children, given that they were accomplices or perpetrators to millions of murder of Jewish, Polish, Russia, Italian, French etc. children, who cares.
Yes..a discusting Allied War Crime...
@@chriscooperkris2780 Not at all. Glorious retribution for crimes and a justifirf target.
@@patriciabrenner9216 attitude of the victor is not always the truth.
@@Con_Koumis In this case, it is
I've been fascinated with Dresden ever since reading Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut. Video is well documented and footnoted. Well done!
That was an asinine book and completely ignores the terror raids conducted by the Germans on places like Rotterdam.
My mother-in-law, as a young woman of 20, watched Dresden burning from a nearby hilltop, just lucky to be away from town.
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
I really appreciate that you put your references at the bottom of the screen as you make each point. I haven't seen any other essay-style youtuber do this and I think it's a really good practice.
It is a good practice. However the problem with referencing some history books is if you were to check they referenced other history books who referenced other history books who referenced other history books who referenced other history books. Zero original sources. Or the first book bases it's facts on estimates. Then people reference this, but stop saying it is an estimate. It would be like If I made a video about Dresden and referenced other UA-cam videos as proof. Things get reworded in every rewriting. Adjectives change, synonyms are used, until the "facts" sometimes bare little resemblance to the original facts. That is why some history books say completely different facts about the same thing. This is why some history books say only 10,000 died, others say 300,000 died.
Another UA-cam channel stated the initial attack targeted roads and bridges to prevent escape. Given the poor accuracy of the bombers, I always found this suspect. Thank you for this well cited report.
The bombing of Dresden is described in detail in the Slaughterhouse 5, by Kurt Vonnegut, published in 1969. The film was released in 1972.
The Vonnegut novel was very good. The 1972 film...not too good.
So?
just finished reading the book, unfortunately found it to be quite underwhelming, more about a billy chap than about the abominations of war and of dresden's bombings in particular.
I’ve heard the book is a propaganda book.
Pure propaganda
My great-grandparents lived in Radebeul at the time of the bombing. Radebeul is about 11km outside Dresden. She wrote to my grandfather (he was a Namibian farmer interned in South Africa during the war), that the light from the fires was sufficient enough that one could read a newspaper.
didn't think I would hear about Radebeul here but well my home doesn't seem to be that unknown
So der Stürmer was read without light?
What a pleasure to known of 🙏😁
Hopefully you remember what else those days Nazis were responsible for... ☠️
@@OmmerSyssel They try to forget and whine they were victims.
My grandmother lived in Radeberg during the firestorm. They saw the light too on the horizon.
@@OmmerSysselIt's a nasty comment from you. Many people really lived a normal life. My grandparents told me their parents were threatened by Nazis if you all but had a different opinion. When you have kids you think twice about what to say to those people. You didn't have to live through those times...
My grandmother's family was in a group of Latvian refugees hiding on a train heading toward Dresden when the bombs fell. The train stopped when they saw the flames on the horizon. According to my great grandfather, "It was like a hell."
Cold Chisel...Dresden Blues
The bombing saved the lives of the few surviving Jews in Dresden, a small moral note to add to Dresden's tragedy.
@@RicardoMartinez-oh9sq How do you suppose that was the case?
@@dantallionmccrews3822 ...DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO?!!
@@daleburrell6273 Yes, and?
We need to unite and stop fighting these wars for the elites and politicians.
I'm absolutely disgusted with the American and British Air Forces. Dresden had a population of 600,000 people and only 25,000 received justice? 10/10 for effort but 2/10 for performance. They must try harder next time 👍
America and Britain have always been terrorist nations.
That is really a comment made by an absolute asshole!
ahhhh yes tens of thousands of women and children received justice for the sin of their nationality.
@@tavla123Nationality? This people helped to commit a genocide, how is it that drafted germans comitted massive war crimes day after day? These germans weren't innocent.
When I was a young boy my neighbor that was a German WW2 veteran told me stories about the war from his perspective. If I remember correctly he said he thought it was "near 30,000" burned to death. I wish I would have asked him to write all of his stories down, 3rd and 4th grade me thought they were fascinating.
I feel you, my great-uncle Clarence was a combat engineer in George Pattons 3rd army and fought from d+12 to just after Market Garden. It's only now 20 odd years since he passed that I kick myself for never getting them on audio or any other form of documentation. Now all I have are stories, papers and a box of medals. He claimed to have recovered the medals from dead U-boat men that washed up on the East Coast of the U.S.
Dang!
I remember seeing in a documentary that what’s-his-face in charge of German propaganda took the 10,000 death toll and added a zero to make the Allies look bad….er, worse. Views from both sides of a conflict are valuable but the German side especially was being lied to more often than not.
One of my best friends father, Mr. Frank Glover I believe flew in the 2 RAF raids as a Lancaster tail gunner.
I recall he'd tried to join the RCAF but they realized he was under age. He went to England where I assume they needed people more and over looked his age. I understand he survived 2 tours.
My Grandfather was an ethnic German living in Yougoslavia during the war. From what I understand he disliked both Hitler and Tito. His brother wrote down his experiences but my family has yet to get it translated into readable English. The one time sombody tried to translate it the result was low quality
Running to my safe space led me here. Learning doesn't start until you're uncomfortable.
I‘be been to Dresden. Germany has rebuilt much of the destruction which was left by the Soviets. Excellent experience especially the Frauenkirche.
Damn do I love this channel. In detail going through all the evidence and then at the end concluding that it was a war crime, I was not expecting that.
I work for a small company. One day I came to work and they were busy putting up fencing all the way around the place. The boss says don't worry. Next there was a gate post with a guard. The boss says don't worry about it. Much later on I found out we were making lenses for the Department of Defense. That little company had become a strategic Target and I had no idea. Isn't that interesting a sweet simple job can become dangerous and War is why
Man, could you imagine being in the flames and looking up and realizing another wave was dropping it's bombs? Holy hell that's scary!
Thank you for a balanced discussion about the Dresden bombing. I've never heard about it in such succinct detail and I appreciate your presentation. I also appreciate your clarification of the differences between a war crime and crimes against humanity- very clear and concise.
What a disgusting war crime. (Obviously not lessening the other terrible war crimes of ww2)
Thank you. This is one of the better, perhaps one of the best videos I have seen on the bombing of Dresden. Thank you for your great effort.
killing civilians is a crime whether they are German, French, Russian, Ukrainian, Iraqi, Yemeni etc
And English ?
@@bertiewooster3326 the English did not commit any crimes or the British.
That's what war IS. Man's inhumanity to man. To say "" war crimes"" is laughable oxymoronic and is a )wish construct
Murdering people for apostasy is a crime too.
@@johnsmith-ce2tq Certainly not in regards to Dresden
As horrible as is was, it seems that it would be pretty hard to garner sympathy from the British public who had been mercilessly bombed for the previous five years by the Luftwaffe and remote bombs…
Britain started the terror bombing of Germany first though
Oh what crap! Comparing a few hundreds to a few hundred thousands. What kind of fool are you?
War is brutal. The allies didn't ask to be attacked. Neither London. Your comments are spot on. Thank you.
Never asked to be attacked? You should ask then, why they declared war in the first place for the pretext of “protecting” Poland. They simply couldn’t allow Germany rightfully revising the abomination that was the “Versailles treaty”.
@@freckleheckler6311 cope
@@freckleheckler6311 WW1 and ww2 are mostly stupid French fault. Even the support of overthrow Russia royal, French always anti monarchy system which end up worst than once before.
@KPPO200
Every war is a mistake. The 2nd World War was the Germans' mistake.
Hearing people getting their feet stuck in tar and dying is heartbreaking
The first victim of war is the truth.
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
My father was born in Dresden in 1902. His whole family was from Dresden. The day of the bombing he was in Berlin. One of his aunts left town the day before to take care of a friend. The rest of my father’s family died that day.
So? Maybe you should learn about Auschwitz, Dachau, Sobibor etc. I for one am sorry of any German that escaped retribution.
^((( )))
@@patriciabrenner9216
Thank You, Good Lady.
Research what the Luftwaffe did to London earlier in the war. Hitler and his cohorts brought this down upon Dresden. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
@@patriciabrenner9216Jesus christ Patricia, Germans literally talk about the 40s and acknowledged it. Civilians shouldn't be murdered because they live in a dictatorship. Also you know the Hitler youth recruited children? You think that "German people= all evil barbarians" but "brits=all perfect saints"?
Your high quality work is very much appreciated !
Detailed documentarys that are done with striving to produce the best and with pride in your work in mind is very much evident . 👍 Second to none !
I used to walk dogs with a woman about 20 years ago who lived through the raids, she invited me round for tea, she told me how horrific it was, she started shaking and crying, on the sideboard was a photo of her father, an officer on Tirpitz, next to that was a minature replica of the ships bell.
it made me realise how recent WW2 was 😞.
Comparatively yes. My mom will soon be 90, and she says when FDR died, people acted like it was the end of the world here in America.
And how close World War Three may be if this madness over Ukraine does not end soon, even at the cost of Ukraine's defeat, sorry for being "politically incorrect."
You can still see the bullet holes in buildings in some Polish cities to this day. I lived in one such place. It's thought-provoking, to say the least. I've seen similar in France and could take you to entire districts in British cities that were never rebuilt. It is still recent.
UA-cam.
We're you get censored, banned, and ridiculed for shedding light on things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED and are documented in books written decades ago.
It's commie here.UA-cam is litew8
An ex girlfriend of mine (I dated her in the 90s) had a grandmother who lived there. I got to talk with her once and I asked why the family still lived there are the first few times Dresden got nailed as surely they must have known that cities were being hit. She said everyone knew the dangers, but anyone leaving town without what the government considered a legit reason would get in a LOT of trouble. She said people trying to leave town would vanish outright and everyone thought the Gestapo nabbed them. The Nazis didn't want people fleeing to the West if they could help it. The family happened to be out of town for a wedding (they had to show paperwork about it before they could go) when the first big raid happened. they never went back. She said she remembered how everyone hated the Allies for what they considered a 'war crime', UNTIL news finally came out on what the Germans had bene up to all that time. She said since that became clear, people just shut up and didn't gripe about Allied actions (Western allies, anyway; she'd still resented what the Russians had done to Germany)
It always was very convenient that after the war suddenly the allies found a reason for the people of Germany to feel guilt.
Dresden is a fantastic example of what Total War looks like.
WEll the Germans should have considered that before waging a murderous total war.
@garyjenkinson7189 Nope. Dresden was a legitimate target but post war it was played up as an attack against civilians.
Because being a civilian doesn't make you less vulnerable when a target you live in is bombed.@garyjenkinson7189
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
@@sirridesalot6652 Why would the winners rewrite history to damage their own image LMFAO. If anything, it would be played down as a legitimite target when it really was not, which is exactly what has happened.
My Grandfather told me last year, that the burning skyline over Dresden is his oldest memory. He grew up a few km south-west of Dresden and the airplanes flew over his village. He was almost 4 years old.
Thank you for showing us this video. Esp for mentioning Leipzig and Chemnitz too.
PS: As a Leipzig citizen who grew up in Saxony, I can tell you there is no week whithout a news about neutralizing some bombs in that cities.
So what? There is not a DAY in your victims memory which isn't haunted by your insane ancestors deliberately chosen evilness!
50 million victims should calm you down?
You deserved every single bomb.
Regards from a peaceful neighbour who decided rescuing their entire fellow Jewish population...
Thank you so much for sharing your memories.
My grandmother's immediate family was killed in the blitz.
I'm glad your loser grandfather knows some of the pain.
Expect no sympathy you hund
Growing up in Dresden I heard the story, that we were actually lucky that the war ended before a Nuclear Bombs were ready. The story goes that they wanted to try one on a city in flat terrain and one on a city in a valley. And Dresden was the candidate
I would say Berlin deserved the nukes
They never wanted to stop a bomb on Europe . No need they knew war was over. I’ve heard that it was destroyed so Soviet’s couldn’t use it. All depends on where you live and what you read. Either way it was an ugly awful affair. Dresden was hiroshima without radiation in some ways
@@misterbaker9728 Both had to be stopped and the bombings saved allied lines after years of German and Japanese invasions
I reckon that Dresden, or Hamburg for that matter, showed that you don't need a nuclear bomb to destroy a city. As it stands the atomic bomb wasn't ready to be used until August, and its usage against Japan was clearly a case of a hail mary attempt to end the war without having to invade the Japanese mainland. Which was projected to cost more American lives then the US had lost in the war up till then. Whereas the war against Germany was clearly regarded to be over within a couple of months, even in february 1945. The Allies were nearing the Rhine, projected to cross it in march and then fan out into Germany. And the Red Army was already at the Oder. There might be some costly battles ahead, but nowhere near enough as projected in Japan. Also it can be argued that the cities to be nuked would be in Eastern Germany, the intended Soviet occupation zone. Which would allow for the Soviets to sift through the rubble and collect all the data. Which would make nuking Dresden as an experiment kinda worthless. And also also, the US had no infrastructure in Europe that could handle the atomic bomb. The only plane that was designed to carry and drop the atomic bomb was the B-29, and those were all deployed against Japan. There were no B-29's in the European theater. Even though I reckon plenty of 8th Air Force crews wouldn't mind having had that aircraft instead of the B-17 or B-24, as it meant flying in air pressurized comfort instead of freezing their nads off in the open B-17 or B-24.
@@freefall9832 it still does
"I do not want to receive any suggestions how we can destroy militarily important targets in Dresden's hinterland, I want to get suggestions how we can fry 600,000 refugees from Breslau in Dresden."
- Winston Churchill
Excellent if he said it. These refugees like all Germans were criminals. This lot paid.
@@patriciabrenner9216 why do hate Germans so much? did you not go to school and learn the difference between the SS and average German civilian? Jealousy won't get you anywhere
I was one of the corpses buried there, i never talked about the war since. I died in 1995, RIP in peace
This is an interesting subject that deserves some recognition (especially this video, given your tired state in it). Someone having to discuss this in such detail deserves so much respect.
A friend of mine, Eric (Scottish) , had a wife Erika (German), whose mother was in MI6 during the war. She was married to the mayor of Dresden. He managed to lead his family to the river, then they escaped along the bank during the raid.
In spite of the headlines of a destroyed city, 130k dead, etc. Dresden's area is 328.8 km2, the city center and total area destroyed was 15 km2.
Random tip- firefighters now are told NOT to wet cloth over their mouth, as the humidity created transmits more heat than dry air.
I heard it most recently from wildfire (burn over) instructions, maybe the only situation that even comes close to the ferocity of the Dresden fire.
That's not done to cool down, it's to avoid inhaling smoke, something that modern firefighters have other protections against
Couldn't imagine how terrifying raids like this are in general; especially for families trying to protect their children.
Terrible
A professional connection of mine was a teenager in Vienna during the last years of the war. While we rarely discussed the war, she did mention once that her most vivid memory of the bombing raids was the aftermath...when they came out of the shelters in the morning the were greeted with a surreal sight...."Everything was covered in tinsel"...
Of course she was referring to "window" (chaff) that the Allies were using to fox German radars. I must admit that I was taken aback when she first described it, neither of us realized what it was until I had a bit of time to think about precisely what it was.
*Try uKRAINE in 2022 !*
That's the point n why it's done
@@GrrMeister Try looking at Armenia's Artsakh Sronghold too. Stepanakert pounded non-stop (for 6 weeks), in the 2020 Karabakh War. But, it got very little got media attention, and what was discussed was infiltrated by a poisoned well, from Azerbaijan's Propaganda Machine.
Excellent analysis. I have an ancestor who carried on a long correspondence with the German philosopher Leibniz. This entire correspondence was destroyed in the Dresden bombing. I would very much like to have studied this exchange of letters and ideas, as I am a philosopher, also, who has taught in a university setting. So much is destroyed in war. That ... besides the deaths of so many people ... is a real human tragedy.
To all here KPPO200 is a so-called fact-checker! Fact-checkers delete comments they do not like! Be careful! I see here German democracy at work!
Excellent video. About 15 years ago, I was in a "discussion" with others on this topic. As a result, I visited the National Archives in London a couple of times and was able to read and copy the target information supplied to the RAF before this raid. In various small sketch maps etc factories building things like aero engines and other weapons etc were clearly marked. The railway station was also highlighted as a key target with the explanation of how it was an important junction key to the movement of German troops, munitions etc. In 1991, I went to Germany to work and the first colleague to befriend me told me how he still remembered being pushed in a pram at 4 years of age, by his mother as she fled during the RAF raid and the sight of the city burning as they fled stayed with him. And he never held a grudge and was the kindest of all the German colleagues I had there.
The Nazis kept resisting after this raid, launching missiles against Antwerp, gassing undesirables and cremating them. Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.
The RAF found that if you keep dropping incendiary bombs in one place you can start a firestorm. The hot air goes up through the center of the fire. This creates a partial vacuum that creates a strong wind that goes from the perimeter to the center of the fire. Sometimes people who were too close to the fire would get blown off their feet and sucked into the center of the fire.
The British did not have atomic bombs, but if you can do a firestorm you don't need an A-Bomb.
End result is the same, just takes different resources to deliver.
The Americans dropping napalm on Tokyo killed more civilians than the two atomic bombs dropped.
@@tonyclough9844 So what is your point? It achieved its goal . Kill your enemy and end the war. Stop moralizing 77 years after a world war in which you did not fight. Do you honestly think given the Japanese record for depravity and torture that they would have acted any better if they had gained the upper hand?
The sooner you hand wringers get over yourselves the better. Killing evil is neither pretty or fun.
Both sides had their "efficiency experts," didn't they...
The Americans knew about firestorms since they studied a massive 'natural' firestorm that occurred in the 1870's killing some 2500 men, women, and children in one night.
As it turns out, I think your narrative sufficiently, and poignantly, conveys the horrific nature of the raid without the need for graphic images (which are widely available elsewhere). We are able to better focus on the humanity, and tragedy, of those involved. Thanks for another outstanding discussion.
Great *research* AND *narrative* by TIK indeed.
Has me as turned upside down and emptied as after reading the actions orchestrated by the German personnel & friends in Kiev, Warsaw, or towards then in Treblinka.
If the other side had won both Harris and LeMay would have been hung as war criminals. In 1945 in fact the war was over and the destruction of these targets was a demonstration more than a realistic military target. This was a lab exercise to see what would happen and how to start a firestorm. If this effort and material supply were used for tactical air support the war would have been shorten by several months. The A bombing was even a more disgusting demonstration with the US navy secretary opposing it to the end. We had a total blockade on Japan and they couldn't feed their population. Great video, very balanced..
Dresden was filled with refugees from the east at this time with people crowding streets, parks, and basements. How important a military target it was is questionable. Destroying the town likely did little or nothing to shorten the war.
The Dresden area had refugees in it, they weren't all concentrated in the downtown business district. Dresden's area is 328.8 km2, the city center and total area destroyed was 15 km2. or less than 5% of Dresden. Context for the claims that are so often made.
@@mitchrichards1532yea you even not german but know Dresden better that germans😂😂 search a Life
@@CoCAccount-bv2rp I've been through it many times by car, and walked downtown a few times. I can also read a map, use Google earth, look up RAF period pics, etc.
You? Wake up genius.
These refugees, from East Prussi, were mostly war criminals as they voted in majority for the Nazis and helped themselves to the wealth of their non German neighbors. Karma came.
You always upload in time for my lunch break, so thank you tik!
Hope you enjoy!
For me it's during my dinner time. ✌️
I never understood why Harris and other Brit officers had such a brutal attitude towards those who suffered nervous breakdowns of various types. Always thank you for your comprehensive presentations
I've no idea - I'm not trained or anything near qualified to say. But, I'd imagine if he had to think about what those with PTSD were going through, he might be forced to contemplate the consequences of his orders. I'd imagine being so distant from the effects of his orders was something of a necessity for himself and his own well being.
Harris was an ideologue, and a throwback to previous eras. He basically viewed refusing to fight as cowardice.
@@primmakinsofis614 These were the religious soldiers trying not to break God's commandment in the Bible "Thy shall not kill".They were drafted.Many of these religious soldiers here in the United States won Medal of Honors without killing anybody.
London May have had something to do with their mood! War is hell and best not to start it, right Germany!
The understanding of ptsd wasn't as good as it is today, any nervous breakdown was seen as a deliberate act to look insane to avoid fighting, cowardice with another word. And they thought they had to uphold morale with violence, either you get your shit together or you die, and that chock can take most people out of a temporary breakdown.
I'm American, but I lived in Dresden for many years. I've lived in several cities throughout Europe, including St Pete. Russia, and Dresden was my favorite. Now it's overrun by migrants from the Middle East and N Africa---not as much as other German cities, but it will never be the same again. It's far worse. I got the hell out.
I used to give tours of the city and often heard criticism against Bomber Harris. My reply was always the German Condor Legion bombing Guernica during Spanish Civil War, Warsaw, Coventry, London, etc. etc.
Comparing Dresden to London is crazy lol
Americans fought the least in WW2, yet killed the most civilians.
@datdude15 can you elaborate?
@@paulosbornept7523 London was bombed, Dresden was incinerated.
@datdude15 V2 rockets landed indiscriminately. We can agree both were horrible, let's not forget, German strategy from the beginning was to bomb civilians and weaken their resolve to resist Nazi occupation.
Since the Germans didn't have any anti-aircraft guns for defending Dresden from a bomber attack, both the leading British Mosquito which dropped the flayers onto the center of Dresden for directing the following bombers to the target, and the British Lancaster bombers could fly quite low to the ground so as to be able to see Dresden quite well!
5:22 I have some Soviet info to add to this section-> On 5 January 1945 the Soviet 14 GvBAD sent 2 lend-lease B-25 Mitchell bombers to Dresden and they dropped 300,000 leaflets between around half-past 6 in the afternoon. The leaflets contained the "Appeal of 50 German generals to the German army and people". Source: TsAMO fund 20516, inventory 1, file 34, page 1.
My grampa told me his memory of the bombing night. He was a child, growing up in a village about 50 kilometers to the north east of Dresden. He was about 8 years old. He remembered not being able to sleep that night, because there was a bright light at the horizon - the burning city of Dresden. He watched it for hours with his 6 siblings and his weeping mother.
HaaraaldEriksson my Grandmother told similar stories about the bombing of Coventry.
I saw myself what had been done to London and many other English cities.
I have little sympathy for Dresden, Hamburg or any other German target consequently I offer no apology.
@@gordonfrickers5592 No sympathy for the civilians at all? That's cold. What did the kids that died do to deserve that?
If you say that it was war and such things needed to be done, I'd agree to that... Doesn't mean tragedies didn't happen.
@@gordonfrickers5592 Yea me eitherr durrr the TV told me da germans were da bag guys duuhhhrrrr...
@@winstonsmith8482 You shouldn't need a TV to tell you that the Germans were the bad guys bud...
@@gordonfrickers5592 I can understand that point of view even though I don't share it. An eye for an eye just leaves everyone blind...
An American best selling author Kurt Kurt Vonnegut was one of the POW's that was forced by the Germans to retrieve the dead in Dresden. In 1969 he wrote a semi- biography of his experiences in the novel Slaughterhouse-Five, or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death. A eye witness to the horror of Dresden.
Nobody remembers Pforzheim was obliterated too. The Soviets never let people forget about Dresden. Why? After the war, Dresden was in the DDR, Pforzheim was in West Germany.
The book Dresden describes the death agony of the city began just after 10pm on the 13th, witnesses stating bombs rained down everywhere without discrimination smashing everything in sight without mercy.
You think there was discrimination in the Blitz? ALL bombing was indiscriminate in those days.
"Dresden was a warcrime, not a genocide." Well spoken.
You clarified the difference between a warcrime and a genocide, as a crime against humanity, very well.
Sorry for going a bit offtopic and back in to the future, but there is something i need to get off my mind:
The same differentiation should be made with the current warcrimes in Ukraine. But genocide is such a strong word and people like to get upset these days.
Shouldn't we wait until the conflict is over and the evidence can be established? There are stories of forced deportations in the East of Ukraine and no means of establishing the metrics. And they may not be for years in the future.
Tomato - tomato in terms of the sentence at the Hague, if anyone gets there.
Arguably, what British were doing from 1942 is attempt of genocide. Had Soviets were not able to defeat bulk of German forces and thus shorten the war, it is quite likely that British (and US) would intensify their attempts to wipe out all of the Germans (similar what they did in Japan) .
Yes area bombing of population centres at night with incendiary bombs was a war crime, the US bombed during day to aim at strategic targets
Total war and an existential threat from an evil regime. Fuck em.
Are you going to do a video about the American firestorm raid on Tokyo in 1945? It was easily as devastating yet this horrific raid gets far more coverage.
Great video, have not seen as deep of a video covering Dresden in WWII
So 6 lost bombers divided by 1173 total bombers equals 0.51% not a 0.0085% loss rate. Or am I missing something?
The bombers didn't miss
You're correct. I must have miss-typed when I was feeding the numbers into a percentage calculator
Glad someone noticed this, it was the only thing that triggered me in the video. If you sow the wind, you will reap the whirlwind.
The other commentor said same
OK, this one "hit home" because my Great-Grandfather survived this 1945 raid as he lived in Dresden (all his life 1871-1957). But no worries, I am not triggered (especially not by these number discussions). Bruno Robert Gelbrich, having been a teacher, made handwritten diaries in Old German handscript. I can read it, but many German cannot. It is appalling to read his own witness account on that. But, You may be surprised to hear that he expressed no hate nor anger against the allies; he would always write rather neutral. But and the end of the war, his only single ranting ever in that diary (6 volumes BTW) was about the WINDBAG Goebbels ...
TIK, I need to thank You personally for this video because You - of course unwittingly - You brought home to me what I was missing in my own puzzle about it. Guess what: the only two books I have about Dresden were from Irving (a 1964 issue) and McKee (1983). If or not these books were worth reading was not the question for me then in the 80s, when I started reading as a teenager: I was just lucky to find any books at all about it ... and there were many more, but they were beyond my budget ... today I have MANY more books also about Hamburg and Berlin (also where parts of my family come from) on the same topic, of the WW2 air raids. What triggered me 40 years ago was not the "number battles" nor even the cruelty of it all. It was the few stories my relatives told me. And I wanted to know what happened, and why. The What is easiest, the Why is hardest. So over 40 years I was on a private hobby-historian hunting, but what I could never do like You did, was a comparison of all these sources to draw a conclusion.
Please continue. Stick to tanks and banks. Thanks
This is a great summary of one of the worst events in the European theater. At the end, when you sum it up, it was a war crime. The allies were engaged in total war. We did horrible things to win and shorten that war. Just ask Curtis LeMay ( Commander of the US 8th Air Force ). He stated after the war that if the Allies had lost the war that he would have been prosecuted for war crimes. War is a terrible thing and we should remember terrible events such as this so we can avoid wars in the future.
The fire bombings of Tokyo would be another very important war crime to cover
Grandmother said they used to go to a hill side at night and see the glow of Nuremburg burn in the southeast.
Her village was about 60km from Nuremburg.
You can imagine Dresden and how far away you could see that firestorm in the distance at night.
"....real historians are saying that." TIK, you ARE a real historian. Thank you.
Kurt Vonnegut was a soldier in WW-2. His book (and film based on it) 'Slaughterhouse Five' really got to me, about Dresden.
The islanders of Maui did the same thing earlier this year, listened to their government overlords. They died.
The smashed train station that you show as "Dresden´s Central Train Station" at 33:30 and 42:29 is actually the former Anhalter Bahnhof in Berlin.
When the Americans did a firestorm on Tokyo, They dropped incendiary bombs on those neighborhoods that have all those houses made out of wood and paper. Tokyo was damaged much more than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
By far the best account of this raid I've seen - thanks!
If deliberately creating a firestorm in a city in order to incinerate as many civilians as possible isn't a war crime - then what is?
Nobody creates a firestorm. It happened. And Dresden was a legitimate target. As to the vermin that was incinarated, they were criminals.
@@patriciabrenner9216 "We killed altogether about 400,000 Germans,* one third of them in the two fire storms in Hamburg and Dresden. The Dresden fire storm was the worst. But from our point of view it was only a fluke. We attacked Berlin sixteen times with the same kind of force that attacked Dresden once. We were trying every time to raise a fire storm. There was nothing special about Dresden except that for once everything worked as we intended"
Freeman Dyson, British Comber Command
@@yingyang1008 so what? The Germans murdered millions in cold blood. 400 000 is a drop in the retaliation they deserved.
@@patriciabrenner9216 So you admit now that it was a deliberate tactic - in one day you have completely reversed your position
Maybe you should stop spamming the comments seeing as you don't know anything about the subject
@@yingyang1008 I don't know why they did it as I wasn't in the room. I am happy these Dresdeners paid for their crimes. They were part of a monstruous criminal murderous people and got exactly what they deserved.
Gratulations to this very balanced and objective analysis. My grandmother was witnessing this as a refugee and told me the horrific stories like you mentioned it. It was just an lucky incident that she survived and, following this, I’m able to write this.
Did your grandmother tell you that Germans tortured, gassed and killed 6 million Jews, 4 million Poles, 27 million Russian civilians not to mention handicapped people, Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses......? Some Germans just love playing the victim card and expect the rest of the world to forget about their atrocities.
My Latvian mother-in-law told a similar story of being locked out of an air raid shelter in Hamburg. She was a "guest worker" during the war and during one of the air raids, attempted to get into a shelter but was denied as she was not German so she and other non-Germans took shelter under a bridge. Once the all clear was sounded, she walked past where the shelter once stood. It had taken a direct hit and was completely destroyed with no survivors. She laughed while talking about it.
Yikes, someone out there has a sick sense of humor.
Well, you need to understand the times and the fact that the Germans had just kicked her out into the bombing only to get bombed themselves. So yes, a big Nelson "ha ha" to them.
@@snookums01 sounds kind of like a sick fantasy more than anything else
@@kylephilipe8347 which bit? She was in Hamburg during the war and I have no reason to believe she lied. And hearing TIK's video, it would seem this was not an isolated case.
@@snookums01 This woman was psychotic
the picture at 5:48 has been cut to deceive the viewer that the soldier is shooting at the woman and her child..the reality is he is shooting at advancing tro0ps and defending the civilians.....history is wonderful if only it were true..Tolstoy
So, Tick, what happened to over an estimated 500,000 German and Polish (the Nazis didn't prohibit Polish refugees from taking shelter in the "open city" of Dresden!) who were residing on the city streets throughout Dresden, keeping in mind that the old city of Dresden featured civilian residences to the very center of town, and keeping in mind that the RAF had informed the Lancaster crews that Dresden was overflowing with refugees?
The refugees drom East Prussia were criminals, even more than the rest of the Germans. So they paid.
Ashes... little grey snowflakes. You breathing in several tousends of atoms from the deads of Dresden each time you take a breath.
@@raimohoft1236 who cares!
@@patriciabrenner9216 Any sane human.
@@wimschmied3800 Not when we talk of Germans in WWII I am glad this lot paid for their crimes.